Hello TeamLiquid, I´m JayPower and this is my 5th guide I bring you. This time it is a better sentry immortal all-in. Due to redistribution in economy you are able to get your sentries earlier and move out with 250 more energy at the same timing. This way you don’t have to slow down your push down to make additional sentries. Instead you can keep pushing and spend warpin rounds on units that actually deal damage instead of paying 100 gas for a new forcefield. Please take a look at Day9's daily on sentry immortal all-in or Remark's thread for a solid guide on execution and general tips. This is just an alteration in build order.
Build overview
You start with a 1gate core expand with double gas. You use your gateway to make 1 zealot followed by 4 sentries. While you expand you get your robo at 5:30. You can move out to your watchtower to try to fake a 5gate. I definitely recommend this to keep the zerg honest, be careful though since you’re only on 1 gateway. From here on the build is very straight forward. You make 3 immortals, 1 warp prism and an observer from the robo while getting 7 additional gateways.
Build order
9 pylon (at ramp) 11 chronoboost on probes 12 chronoboost on probes 13 gateway (at ramp) 14 gas / 15 pylon / 18 core (at ramp) 15 chronoboost on probes 19 zealot 21 gas 22 chronoboost on probes 23 pylon 24 sentry 27 chronoboost on probes 29 sentry 31 pylon (low ground) 32 sentry 35 nexus 36 sentry 36 robo 39 forge (low ground) 40 pylon (low ground) 42 warpgate done, warp in 1 sentry 42 immortal 42 chronoboost on robo 47 +1 attack from forge 48 chronoboost on natural nexus (after this just keep chronoboosting the robo) 52 immortal 60 3x gateway 60 immortal 64 pylon 64 sentry 66 4x gateway 66 warp prism 68 observer
Data / trade-off
As you can see in the graph above you start mining gas earlier and get a later nexus, this reflects upon the mineral income. But this evens out quickly when your natural is done and Parting has to get his 3rd/4th gasses and build probes to saturate those gasses. From the graph you can also see that Parting gets even in mined gas a little while before we both move out, here is where the big advantage kicks in. Parting needs a bigger gas income to reinforce with sentries while we reinforce right away with zealots and stalkers because our sentries have plenty of energy.
The move-out
The move-out you do with 5 sentries and a zealot is to fake a possible 5 gate to force unit from the zerg. It is important that you that you learn other builds that look similar in the beginning but play out different, especially in a boX format. While you move out it is important to bring a probe to scout for the 3rd base of the zerg. If the 3rd isn´t there, or very late, it could possibly be fast mutas or infestors. I recommend getting an observer after the 2nd immortal and scout what the zerg is up to. Some people prefer to still attack, kill the 3rd and don´t commit to an attack if there´s a massive spine wall. I´m not 100% sure which one I like better.
Video Guide
The video guide I made offers more in-depth analysis and visualization of situations mentioned above.
This game shows the purpose of the build very well. The zerg is droning comfortably off 4 speedlings and he would still be doing if I hadn’t move out. I forced enough units with my fake 5gate to keep the worker count even. After that the zerg couldn’t tech fast because he didn’t have the economy to support it and had to stay on low tech to get more drones out.
In this game my probe failed to make the pylon to finish my wall and the zerg had speedling killing 26 workers. For this reason my reinforcements weren´t very strong. Fortunately my opponent drones a bit too much and with a nice elevator into his main I was able to ignore most of his spines. Even with the fast infestor tech he wasn´t able to hold it.
In this game my opponent was going for a speedling heavy early/mid-game with fast infestors. I made a big mistake losing my 2nd forward pylon and the probe so fast. Fortunately My opponent didn’t have enough gas to make enough infestors so my sentries remained alive enough to help my zealot beat the zergling. Overall, more infestors wouldn’t have made a very big difference since he didn’t have spines.
About me
I'm JayPower. 19 years old and from the Netherlands. I play all races in sc2 at a master league, right now I'm playing protoss the most. I like to use unexplored/fun strategies to play since I gave up on competitive gaming a while ago. I make FPVODs of my games on my YouTube channel often and share my analysis.
Please give me feedback on the guide / video guide. I really do appreciate any feedback, so please give me suggestions on how I can improve. Any questions about the guide are welcome too, I will try to answer them as soon as possible.
This looks pretty interesting, I'll probably experiment with this build a lot in the future and see if there's any drawbacks to it that I can find. If there aren't, then this would presumably be even stronger than Parting's build because the Zerg can't play as greedy against a gateway expand as they could against a Nexus first.
A good zerg will notice that you don't take a 3rd or 4th gas and expect a 2-base all-in. I feel that a lot hangs on whether zerg overreacts to the the fake move out.
Have you faced someone going mutas? I ask this because fast muta used to be a common response against sentry-heavy gate expands (I don't know if it still is, I rarely do or see this BO), and the mutas should be up in time for the all-in. Take your third replay as an example, but imagine mutas instead of infestors.
With partings build you do the all-in after scouting a fast third, but if you are "forcing" the zerg to get fast mutas as a reaction to the 1-gate double gas expand, this could backfire.
I don't know if the muta builds takes into account a possible 5-gate pressure or what kind of overreaction you could cause by faking it.
On December 31 2012 09:47 bertu wrote: Have you faced someone going mutas? I ask this because fast muta used to be a common response against sentry-heavy gate expands (I don't know if it still is, I rarely do or see this BO), and the mutas should be up in time for the all-in. Take your third replay as an example, but imagine mutas instead of infestors.
With partings build you do the all-in after scouting a fast third, but if you are "forcing" the zerg to get fast mutas as a reaction to the 1-gate double gas expand, this could backfire.
I don't know if the muta builds takes into account a possible 5-gate pressure or what kind of overreaction you could cause by faking it.
With the small move-out that I do I scout the timing of the zergs 3rd. If there's no 3rd or a late 3rd, I get an observer after my 2nd immortal to scout my opponent. Maybe I should even cancel my 2nd immortal and go for the twillight council to be prepared to play a longer game. I'm not really sure at about it though, I honestly haven't put a lot of time to find the optimal solution for situations like these. Mostly because it's hard to tell the difference between fast mutas and fast infestors without an observer. I feel like I can kill a zerg going for fast infestors because I have more zealots and almost never more than 7 sentries than the regular build. It depends though on how many spines the zerg has and what map is being played. I don't think pushing up a ramp on shakuras with spines is a good idea. I think elavatoring should work fine vs infestors compared to vs mutas. Yes I have faced zergs going mutas and lost horribly after I kill their 3rd and trying to elavator my units past the spine wall . I'll try to put more thought into this.
On December 31 2012 09:51 WagonWheel wrote: Im very curious as to what program you used for you income graphs. Can you share that info?
I actually took Partings replay vs Sen from WCS and wrote down his income every 10sec, same with a replay from myself. Then just put them into a table in excel and made a graph in there. This is why both lines are a bit wobbly, I think my point is clear though.
Without a stalker it becomes very hard if not impossible to deny double overlord scouts. So your build becomes pretty transparent. Also, if you execute PartinG's build perfectly you can leave your base at ~8:40. I'm assuming yours leaves a lot later, which makes a big difference, especially if zerg has scouted what you are doing.
On December 31 2012 10:06 PandaTank wrote: Without a stalker it becomes very hard if not impossible to deny double overlord scouts. So your build becomes pretty transparent. Also, if you execute PartinG's build perfectly you can leave your base at ~8:40. I'm assuming yours leaves a lot later, which makes a big difference, especially if zerg has scouted what you are doing.
He actually moves out a bit earlier, you can see from the replays.
@Jay: Zerg can still go fast mutas while taking a third base at some point (obviously a later third than the standard no-gas third build), and as you said you can't know if it is mutas or infestors based only in watching his other units. So it is very hard to scout indirectly.
Even if you get a fast obs for scouting, can you even transition into something that can defend mutas? You will have already invested all the gas in 5 sentries, robo and obs, probably a immortal, and you didn't even take the third assimilator. It looks tough, or at least that is what I remember from 2010 GSL games, lol.
The best bet is forcing roaches with the fake pressure, but I don't know if zerg even needs to incorporate a roach warren at that time with a reactionary muta build to your opening.
I will ask my zerg teammate to play some games against me and see how it goes.
A big problem is that a lot of zergs when facing gate expands go for 2base tech, and any variation of 2base tech (muta, infestor) typically destroys an immortal sentry build. You will have mutas flying into your base before you're able to even move out. Also, Infestors only require 2 fungals to rid of the sentries where they can then flood lings.
While I like the idea of opening gate/core expand I think the immortal all in is the worst follow up to it. Why? Because as someone already said the common response to gate/core expansions is 2 base muta which counters your build pretty well. Your fake 1 zealot 4 sentry push might force some lings but thats about it (I dont understand how are you supposed to scout zergs third with it without losing those units?), mutas should still be on time to defend and with just 2 gas you will not be able to overwhelm the zerg with stalkers. Not to be too negative though, I gotta agree that against roach/ling/infestor it should do great.
Its cool but the biggest problem that you don't talk about enough is that you only have 2 gas. The only reinforcements you get are zealots and stalkers which makes you more vulnerable to constant pokes to get rid of your sentry energy. The fact he knows you are on 2 gas for so long with an overlord over your naturals gas would encourage him to overmake units which is probably the best decision vs your low sentry reinforcement.
Your build also moves out at least 10 sec slower and some say even slower than that, you have no 2 gas at your natural. It has a gateway opening with a light pressure so it could be worth it, but I dunno if we can completely say its better.
Also, no 2 gas at your natural gives you very few options compared to having 4 total gas. That can influence the strength of your build as its very transparent.
I like how you explained the difference between the before and after, cus I kept recounting the units and was confused why the "After" had the same units but no stalker haha
On December 31 2012 10:50 Protossking wrote: A big problem is that a lot of zergs when facing gate expands go for 2base tech, and any variation of 2base tech (muta, infestor) typically destroys an immortal sentry build. You will have mutas flying into your base before you're able to even move out. Also, Infestors only require 2 fungals to rid of the sentries where they can then flood lings.
Although I agree that 2base tech is a lot more common vs a gate-core expand, it is absolutely untrue that mutas fly into your base before you can move out. If you do have an example of a game where the zerg gets 8+ mutas in the protosses base at 8min30 I'd love to see it since I'll be stealing that build As far as mutas destroying a sentry immortal all-in I would have to agree. If the protoss commits to an attack into a spine wall it probably won't end up going well. This is why I'm looking into a different responds to zerg that go for 2 hatch tech.
As far as infestors, I'm not convinced that 2/3 hatch fast infestors can hold the all-in. You will need to have the protoss player commit to an attack into spines while you fungal it to beat it or deny the elavator (which is quite reasonable on some maps, but not all).
You're probably going to refer to suppy vs parting in WCS to back your evidence but there was a lot more to that game than just strategy. What no one seems to mention is that parting hit a massive supply block when he tried to make his 3rd immortal (evidence: http://i.imgur.com/777uM.jpg ). This on top of his late robo caused his 3rd immortal to pop out a full minute later than usual. If you don't believe me please download the replays from WCS and compare parting vs suppy on antiga with parting vs sen on ohana, or even with the timings from remark's guide. Parting's timing was late by a full minute.
On December 31 2012 10:52 syriuszonito wrote: While I like the idea of opening gate/core expand I think the immortal all in is the worst follow up to it. Why? Because as someone already said the common response to gate/core expansions is 2 base muta which counters your build pretty well. Your fake 1 zealot 4 sentry push might force some lings but thats about it (I dont understand how are you supposed to scout zergs third with it without losing those units?), mutas should still be on time to defend and with just 2 gas you will not be able to overwhelm the zerg with stalkers. Not to be too negative though, I gotta agree that against roach/ling/infestor it should do great.
I agree that 2 base muta would be the counter to this build, however like I said before I'm working on an alternative vs 2 basing zergs (the ones that go for mutas). If you don't commit to the attack I think you can still recover if you scout the spire in time.
As far as my small move out with 4 sentry 1 zealot. Although I agree that this force is extremely small and easy to kill, I find it very unusual that the zerg would have enough units out at the watchtower at the point in the game. He would have had an all-in planned for that to be the case which would be very unwise if he scouted the constant sentry production and the forge on the lowground. But it is possible and definitly game-ending. I'm not sure if you misread but you don't scout the 3rd with those units, you use a probe for that which you escort to the watchtower to increase the chance of probe reaching the 3rd. After that you send your units back home.
On December 31 2012 11:03 TheGreenMachine wrote: Its cool but the biggest problem that you don't talk about enough is that you only have 2 gas. The only reinforcements you get are zealots and stalkers which makes you more vulnerable to constant pokes to get rid of your sentry energy. The fact he knows you are on 2 gas for so long with an overlord over your naturals gas would encourage him to overmake units which is probably the best decision vs your low sentry reinforcement.
Your build also moves out at least 10 sec slower and some say even slower than that, you have no 2 gas at your natural. It has a gateway opening with a light pressure so it could be worth it, but I dunno if we can completely say its better.
Also, no 2 gas at your natural gives you very few options compared to having 4 total gas. That can influence the strength of your build as its very transparent.
I have no idea where you get the 10 sec slower from or even slower than that. Maybe from a replay I posted where I got the robo late or didn't chronoboost it perfectly? It does hit at the same time as parting though, I've compared it more than a dozen times with multiple replays.
As far as the gas count/income. I stay on 7 sentries while other go up to 10/11. This gives me 400 more gas to spend on top of my sentries having 250 more energy. My 1st and 2nd gas start very early and give me a gas lead roughly up until the 3rd immortal is done (8:30~). So at 8:30~ is where parting caught up in gas but has 400 gas more spend in sentries which takes a little less than 2 minutes. So at roughly 10:20 is where parting would jump ahead in stalker count assuming we both spend our available gas on stalkers. By that time the game is usually decided.
Looks solid if you can get a 1gate FE off without harass. Maybe this is a dumb question though, but vs 1gate FE as a Z player I will usually try to pressure with lings since I consider it to be a pretty greedy build with insufficient defense. Do you struggle vs this at all?
On December 31 2012 12:12 Defenestrator wrote: Looks solid if you can get a 1gate FE off without harass. Maybe this is a dumb question though, but vs 1gate FE as a Z player I will usually try to pressure with lings since I consider it to be a pretty greedy build with insufficient defense. Do you struggle vs this at all?
Unless you go for gas before pool for super fast speedlings, i think a one gate expo is very safe. At least on all maps with a reasonable choke point at the natural. So if you dont go blindly for gas first against protoss, i would strongly recommend you just forget about ling pressure but focus on overlord scouting and ofc the standard 2-4 lings to see if he is poking with zealot stalker or going straight for sentries. If he goes sentry before he gets a stalker you should have a good 3 min window for massive droning. Stalker zealot poke you will probably need something like 8 lings + 1-2 queens to hold it away without any discomfort.
Pretty interesting build. It appears to be similar to NonY's 2 Gate Sentry expand, but leans more towards going for the Immortal/Sentry push as opposed to going for the late game. Neat though, would love to try it out.
On December 31 2012 10:50 Protossking wrote: A big problem is that a lot of zergs when facing gate expands go for 2base tech, and any variation of 2base tech (muta, infestor) typically destroys an immortal sentry build. You will have mutas flying into your base before you're able to even move out. Also, Infestors only require 2 fungals to rid of the sentries where they can then flood lings.
In pvzs, I only open gateway expand zergs do 2base tech less than 1 in 5 games vs me
/e.. then again, my gateway expand is different so maybe zergs respond differently
As a zerg, ive been taught that we need to scout 3rd/4th gas timings to tell if it's possible sentry/immortal or stargate or if its an attempt at a late game. So i feel w/o getting 3rd/4th gas this really messes up the zergs scouting, forcing kamikaze Overlord scouts. Which may or may not see this in time.
the other thing is how does this work vs ling/bling or baneling drops?
Zergs tend to react to FFEs I do by just going for a roach all in. I can sim city with extra cannons and use FFs well and be fine, crank a couple immortals and usually push to win.
Against this, being unable to make cannons - or if I get the forge down, not having enough money/time to make them - and only having 1 gate just kills me. Even if they hit after my first immortal is out it's just not enough - I maybe have 6 FFs. Just died to that attack again and again.
When they don't pressure, however, even if they play greedy or safe, it tends to work, just like the regular one.
I did get molested by a roach/hydra/ling comp I didn't scout though, but that might just be a one off. It was like playing against Stephano's roach max, but with hydras. Just killed everything so fast.
Still, once I can refine it to be safer against roach all ins this should be better than the regular. I like having the extra energy for a GS if necessary.
On December 31 2012 15:42 Complete wrote: You can probably get away with it because most zerg's probably don't practice against gateway openers very much.
Back when gateway openings were popular, you'd never get away with a gate->nexus->robo build. Waay too greedy.
Not a stable build, but certainly situationally strong!
?? if you don't go gate-nexus robo ?
it's 35 nexus, not a 1 gate cybercore nexus or 1 gate nexus forge/cybercore
Definitely an interesting build, love the earlier gas and the idea behind it. You obviously put a lot of time and research behind this , really nice.
The problem is that i feel your move out is too much of a gamble, you can't scout at all because you forced ling speed and you have no idea if he is droning or getting roaches or 20+ lings. 1 gate expand is not that safe as moving down the ramp to get the nexus can be incredibly hard if the zerg commits to some pressure.
The fact you are moving out with 1 zealot and 4 sentries blindly feels really unnatural to me ^^ , as losing those units kills your push entirely and puts you in an awful spot.
Another thing is the absence of the third and fourth gas. Past a certain timing, the zerg has to know it can only be a gateway based aggression and prepare accordingly. It gives your plan away really easily for a player that has a basic idea of timings.
I would say your build is indeed interesting, but unreliable as it has too many small holes that make it exploitable.
On December 31 2012 12:12 Defenestrator wrote: Looks solid if you can get a 1gate FE off without harass. Maybe this is a dumb question though, but vs 1gate FE as a Z player I will usually try to pressure with lings since I consider it to be a pretty greedy build with insufficient defense. Do you struggle vs this at all?
Unless you go for gas before pool for super fast speedlings, i think a one gate expo is very safe. At least on all maps with a reasonable choke point at the natural. So if you dont go blindly for gas first against protoss, i would strongly recommend you just forget about ling pressure but focus on overlord scouting and ofc the standard 2-4 lings to see if he is poking with zealot stalker or going straight for sentries. If he goes sentry before he gets a stalker you should have a good 3 min window for massive droning. Stalker zealot poke you will probably need something like 8 lings + 1-2 queens to hold it away without any discomfort.
1 zeal + 2 sentries is just not enough to even stop 12-20 slowlings, I don't think (with speed obviously being researched since he opened 1base). Maybe this is the incorrect response, but typically if I see 1-base openers I'll lay off on droning until they expand since I'm not sure if they're going 4gate anyway and opt for more lings. Usually I hit right as they're setting up their wall at the nat, and really without a cannon it's extremely tough to safely expand, at least against opponents I've faced. I'm not sure of the precise timings for 1gate expo but 1zeal-2sentry expand used to be super unsafe in the earlier days of SC2 for sure.
On December 31 2012 12:12 Defenestrator wrote: Looks solid if you can get a 1gate FE off without harass. Maybe this is a dumb question though, but vs 1gate FE as a Z player I will usually try to pressure with lings since I consider it to be a pretty greedy build with insufficient defense. Do you struggle vs this at all?
Unless you go for gas before pool for super fast speedlings, i think a one gate expo is very safe. At least on all maps with a reasonable choke point at the natural. So if you dont go blindly for gas first against protoss, i would strongly recommend you just forget about ling pressure but focus on overlord scouting and ofc the standard 2-4 lings to see if he is poking with zealot stalker or going straight for sentries. If he goes sentry before he gets a stalker you should have a good 3 min window for massive droning. Stalker zealot poke you will probably need something like 8 lings + 1-2 queens to hold it away without any discomfort.
1 zeal + 2 sentries is just not enough to even stop 12-20 slowlings, I don't think (with speed obviously being researched since he opened 1base). Maybe this is the incorrect response, but typically if I see 1-base openers I'll lay off on droning until they expand since I'm not sure if they're going 4gate anyway and opt for more lings. Usually I hit right as they're setting up their wall at the nat, and really without a cannon it's extremely tough to safely expand, at least against opponents I've faced. I'm not sure of the precise timings for 1gate expo but 1zeal-2sentry expand used to be super unsafe in the earlier days of SC2 for sure.
When i scout gate first i immediatly drop gas and stop droning. As soon as pool finishes i make a queen and then only lings. As soon as i gather 100 gas i pull drones off of gas and keep making lings while researching speed. This allin is extremely hard to hold for protosses, because the protoss can't make more cannons, and i'd argue that it's nearly impossible to hold the natural. But this is just my 2 cent from a zerg point of view.
Lololol such a nice build order. Tried it out and it seems good. And you move out same as parting and if couple seconds later you for sure have more units.
What i would encourage you to do it to split more adding the gates maybe 58 * 2 62*2 64*20 65*1 it seems like the minerals arent overflowing so much.
I what i really like is that the zerg has issues with scouting and is on his toes. Hess like whoaaaa and cant get uber macro.
Fun fact .... works in PvT :D and if you skip 3rd immortal and add earlier gates you arrive right before stim on close positions :D and with +1
I will try to maybe do a blink all in version of this or stargate 7-8 gate all in. Seems like when done properly youll either have stronger timings or more units. Or more energy in your case
it is different but calling it better is a bit of an exaggeration tbh. it depends so much on the way the zerg reacts to certain things. the move out is nice, but like u mentioned it can also result in you being surrounded by lings. it is unlikely but sitll possible and thus a risk.
also the lack of the 3rd and 4th gas is problematic in my eyes. yes, you move out with 8 sentries that may have a bit more energy and to that point your build is similiar to the one parting does(although roughly 30s slower), but during the push you can mostly build zealots and some stalker what is usually not what you want(except the zerg goes very ling heavy of course).
if you watch some games of parting doing it, he will sometimes go up to 15 sentries or something ridiculous like that. 8 sentries run out of energie very quickly if the zerg attacks from several sides and then u wont be able to build a lot of sentries with only 2 gases.
nevertheless nice build, but i just dont think it is better than the original one.
I think that this would fare pretty well against mutas. Mutas on three bases will be too slow as usual, and if you don't scout a third, you can perhaps panic up a few cannons or stalkers and not do the push. I think it would work. In short, if you really try, you could probably counter this build to get a small edge, but if you're in a best of something series, and P does this and similar gateway expands with e.g. mass blink stalkers, then it would be difficiult to know as zerg.
1) You dont mention Probe scouting, so I assume you dont. Wouldnt your opening be vulnerable to a hatch first into quick third, let alone a hatch hatch pool gas?
2) Wouldnt you be in trouble in case of early speedling pressure?
3) How does this fare against a Hatch block of your natural?
On December 31 2012 15:42 Complete wrote: You can probably get away with it because most zerg's probably don't practice against gateway openers very much.
Back when gateway openings were popular, you'd never get away with a gate->nexus->robo build. Waay too greedy.
Not a stable build, but certainly situationally strong!
?? if you don't go gate-nexus robo ?
it's 35 nexus, not a 1 gate cybercore nexus or 1 gate nexus forge/cybercore
Yes...the build is in the opening post that I responded to
On December 31 2012 12:12 Defenestrator wrote: Looks solid if you can get a 1gate FE off without harass. Maybe this is a dumb question though, but vs 1gate FE as a Z player I will usually try to pressure with lings since I consider it to be a pretty greedy build with insufficient defense. Do you struggle vs this at all?
Unless you go for gas before pool for super fast speedlings, i think a one gate expo is very safe. At least on all maps with a reasonable choke point at the natural. So if you dont go blindly for gas first against protoss, i would strongly recommend you just forget about ling pressure but focus on overlord scouting and ofc the standard 2-4 lings to see if he is poking with zealot stalker or going straight for sentries. If he goes sentry before he gets a stalker you should have a good 3 min window for massive droning. Stalker zealot poke you will probably need something like 8 lings + 1-2 queens to hold it away without any discomfort.
1 zeal + 2 sentries is just not enough to even stop 12-20 slowlings, I don't think (with speed obviously being researched since he opened 1base). Maybe this is the incorrect response, but typically if I see 1-base openers I'll lay off on droning until they expand since I'm not sure if they're going 4gate anyway and opt for more lings. Usually I hit right as they're setting up their wall at the nat, and really without a cannon it's extremely tough to safely expand, at least against opponents I've faced. I'm not sure of the precise timings for 1gate expo but 1zeal-2sentry expand used to be super unsafe in the earlier days of SC2 for sure.
I'm inclined to agree with defenestrator here. The old style of gateway expands had to choose gate-heavy (3 gate sentry expand) in order to survive vs the zerg 2 base tech onslaughts. Perhaps a current GM could chime in on this, but I'm pretty sure that gate-core openings would result in a completely different zerg reaction involving a speedling into speedroach attack if the Z is familiar with how to properly deal with 1 base opening instead of FE.
This is how I deal with it and I usually shut down Ps completely for trying to expand on just 1 gate. It was the greatest fear of P in the old style days and I think the same concepts should still apply. The only way you'll really get to survive even as long as getting your natural up is if you somehow have enough sentries. P started dropping gate-core opening for a reason. It really only works because a lot of Zs are either too new to remember it when it was popular and thusly the reactions for its variations, or they just build blindly the 3 hatch macro and mess up trying to transition.
Either that or perhaps the OP could provide replays where his Z opponent used the old aggression strategies and he holds with 1 zealot 2 sentry.
I'm inclined to agree with defenestrator here. The old style of gateway expands had to choose gate-heavy (3 gate sentry expand) in order to survive vs the zerg 2 base tech onslaughts. Perhaps a current GM could chime in on this, but I'm pretty sure that gate-core openings would result in a completely different zerg reaction involving a speedling into speedroach attack if the Z is familiar with how to properly deal with 1 base opening instead of FE.
This is how I deal with it and I usually shut down Ps completely for trying to expand on just 1 gate. It was the greatest fear of P in the old style days and I think the same concepts should still apply. The only way you'll really get to survive even as long as getting your natural up is if you somehow have enough sentries. P started dropping gate-core opening for a reason. It really only works because a lot of Zs are either too new to remember it when it was popular and thusly the reactions for its variations, or they just build blindly the 3 hatch macro and mess up trying to transition.
Either that or perhaps the OP could provide replays where his Z opponent used the old aggression strategies and he holds with 1 zealot 2 sentry.
The maps use to be much smaller (xel naga caverns, metalopolis). Any allin should be able to be scouted easily in the current map pool. You can throw down a sg, cannon up, add more gates, etc. Defense will be much easier than the old gateway expands because the maps are different.
On December 31 2012 12:12 Defenestrator wrote: Looks solid if you can get a 1gate FE off without harass. Maybe this is a dumb question though, but vs 1gate FE as a Z player I will usually try to pressure with lings since I consider it to be a pretty greedy build with insufficient defense. Do you struggle vs this at all?
Only if the zerg gets his gas before the overlord scouted my base, either blindly or reactively if he drone scouts.
On December 31 2012 15:42 Complete wrote: You can probably get away with it because most zerg's probably don't practice against gateway openers very much.
Back when gateway openings were popular, you'd never get away with a gate->nexus->robo build. Waay too greedy.
Not a stable build, but certainly situationally strong!
This is definitly true and I completely agree. This could play out well for protosses in general if zergs tend to scout more in the early game.
On December 31 2012 16:28 Ryuhou)aS( wrote: A couple things...
As a zerg, ive been taught that we need to scout 3rd/4th gas timings to tell if it's possible sentry/immortal or stargate or if its an attempt at a late game. So i feel w/o getting 3rd/4th gas this really messes up the zergs scouting, forcing kamikaze Overlord scouts. Which may or may not see this in time.
the other thing is how does this work vs ling/bling or baneling drops?
That tech would be way too late. The zerg's build would have to look similair to 2base muta/infestor, so lots of spines. Banelings on the ground force protoss to be more careful with forcefields though.
On December 31 2012 17:54 Leafboy wrote: The problem is that i feel your move out is too much of a gamble, you can't scout at all because you forced ling speed and you have no idea if he is droning or getting roaches or 20+ lings. 1 gate expand is not that safe as moving down the ramp to get the nexus can be incredibly hard if the zerg commits to some pressure.
The fact you are moving out with 1 zealot and 4 sentries blindly feels really unnatural to me ^^ , as losing those units kills your push entirely and puts you in an awful spot.
Another thing is the absence of the third and fourth gas. Past a certain timing, the zerg has to know it can only be a gateway based aggression and prepare accordingly. It gives your plan away really easily for a player that has a basic idea of timings.
I would say your build is indeed interesting, but unreliable as it has too many small holes that make it exploitable.
I wouldn't say gamble since it's based on logic. The zerg shouldn't have 20 speedlings out if he sees you going for such a heavy sentry expand with a forge in the wall. You can get away from slow roaches quite easily with forcfields honestly.
Also you don't move down the ramp until you have 1 zealot/3 sentries and can form a full wall with those units at your natural.
I don't think the build is unriliable in the current meta-game. Most openers/builds that counter this build would need the zerg to blind-counter it and would be extremely bad vs any other build from the protoss. This is why I recommend having openers that look the same but play out differenly so it discourages the zerg for doing those things you mentioned.
On December 31 2012 21:20 ChoboDane wrote: Three questions.
1) You dont mention Probe scouting, so I assume you dont. Wouldnt your opening be vulnerable to a hatch first into quick third, let alone a hatch hatch pool gas?
2) Wouldnt you be in trouble in case of early speedling pressure?
3) How does this fare against a Hatch block of your natural?
1. No I don't probe scout. I feel confident vs a zerg that goes for 3 hatches so that wouldn't be a problem. Even if the zerg goes hatch hatch pool gas, his gas would be too late to form any kind of threat and he still would be on 3hatch.
2. Dependant on the timing of the gas. In the current meta-game: no, vs 14/14: yes.
3. I never had that, so I wouldn't know. I guess 3gate expo or tech to something else. I'm really not sure.
On December 31 2012 20:39 SC2ShoWTimE wrote: nevertheless nice build, but i just dont think it is better than the original one.
Just so you know, OP claimed that the push itself was better - and it is, considering the extra sentry energy - not the whole build. :p
And like showtime just explained, the push isn't necessarily better either. It's very situational. You have more energy for the first engagement, but in the long run you will have less. A good zerg will never straight up attack the protoss as soon as he arrives on their side of the map. They will dance around and try buy as much time as possible. This is going to put a lot of pressure to try kill the zerg as soon as possible, perhaps forcing an unfavorable engagement. Another example of the build\push being weaker would be against a zerg that is playing ling\bling. You want to warp as many sentries as possible, as well as a few stalkers for DPS. Zealots are pretty useless in this situation. On two gas this simply won't be possible.
So far only lost once with this build, to jookto going mutas. I wind up making mostly zealot sentry off my 8-gates unless they're going muta, so I never run out of FF really
On December 31 2012 21:20 ChoboDane wrote: Three questions.
1) You dont mention Probe scouting, so I assume you dont. Wouldnt your opening be vulnerable to a hatch first into quick third, let alone a hatch hatch pool gas?
2) Wouldnt you be in trouble in case of early speedling pressure?
3) How does this fare against a Hatch block of your natural?
1. No I don't probe scout. I feel confident vs a zerg that goes for 3 hatches so that wouldn't be a problem. Even if the zerg goes hatch hatch pool gas, his gas would be too late to form any kind of threat and he still would be on 3hatch.
2. Dependant on the timing of the gas. In the current meta-game: no, vs 14/14: yes.
3. I never had that, so I wouldn't know. I guess 3gate expo or tech to something else. I'm really not sure.
1) Im pretty sure any decent Zerg would destroy you if they get to Hatch Hatch Pool against your opening, maybe you havent met one?
On December 31 2012 21:20 ChoboDane wrote: Three questions.
1) You dont mention Probe scouting, so I assume you dont. Wouldnt your opening be vulnerable to a hatch first into quick third, let alone a hatch hatch pool gas?
2) Wouldnt you be in trouble in case of early speedling pressure?
3) How does this fare against a Hatch block of your natural?
1. No I don't probe scout. I feel confident vs a zerg that goes for 3 hatches so that wouldn't be a problem. Even if the zerg goes hatch hatch pool gas, his gas would be too late to form any kind of threat and he still would be on 3hatch.
2. Dependant on the timing of the gas. In the current meta-game: no, vs 14/14: yes.
3. I never had that, so I wouldn't know. I guess 3gate expo or tech to something else. I'm really not sure.
1) Im pretty sure any decent Zerg would destroy you if they get to Hatch Hatch Pool against your opening, maybe you havent met one?
2) So you are in trouble vs 14/14?
Who on earth would go hatch/hatch/pool vs a 1base toss? =/ That's just asking to be 4gated/some other random 1base allin; counting on them not probe-scouting is far too risky for Z.
And yea vs any speedling opening it seems this would definitely get owned (the expansion part anyway), and I still think that this is unsafe vs a Z who goes for some ling aggression even with delayed speed if they're sitting in your nat.
On December 31 2012 21:20 ChoboDane wrote: Three questions.
1) You dont mention Probe scouting, so I assume you dont. Wouldnt your opening be vulnerable to a hatch first into quick third, let alone a hatch hatch pool gas?
2) Wouldnt you be in trouble in case of early speedling pressure?
3) How does this fare against a Hatch block of your natural?
1. No I don't probe scout. I feel confident vs a zerg that goes for 3 hatches so that wouldn't be a problem. Even if the zerg goes hatch hatch pool gas, his gas would be too late to form any kind of threat and he still would be on 3hatch.
2. Dependant on the timing of the gas. In the current meta-game: no, vs 14/14: yes.
3. I never had that, so I wouldn't know. I guess 3gate expo or tech to something else. I'm really not sure.
1) Im pretty sure any decent Zerg would destroy you if they get to Hatch Hatch Pool against your opening, maybe you havent met one?
2) So you are in trouble vs 14/14?
Who on earth would go hatch/hatch/pool vs a 1base toss? =/ That's just asking to be 4gated/some other random 1base allin; counting on them not probe-scouting is far too risky for Z.
And yea vs any speedling opening it seems this would definitely get owned (the expansion part anyway), and I still think that this is unsafe vs a Z who goes for some ling aggression even with delayed speed if they're sitting in your nat.
Oh, just because Hatch Hatch Pool isnt common means it can be disregarded when discussing this build? Makes sense to me!
Chobo, if a protoss scouts you going hatch hatch pool he can just reactively all in and win. Defenestrator isn't saying "it's uncommon so we don't need to discuss it", he's saying it's unreliable/unsafe to do that.
Going hatch hatch pool loses to FFE openings and gateway openings so I'm really not sure under what circumstances you would do this.
On January 01 2013 08:02 Jowj wrote: Chobo, if a protoss scouts you going hatch hatch pool he can just reactively all in and win. Defenestrator isn't saying "it's uncommon so we don't need to discuss it", he's saying it's unreliable/unsafe to do that.
Going hatch hatch pool loses to FFE openings and gateway openings so I'm really not sure under what circumstances you would do this.
All openings can be abused one way or another. You say hatch hatch pool loses to FFE openings and gateway openings and therefore its not relevant to bring up? I say this build loses to hatch hatch pool so therefor this build is not relevant?
What kind of logic is that.
Edit: What circumstances you would open Hatch Hatch Pool? I would if I were playing against PartinG if he didnt 9Pylon-scout. Kid loves his blind Nexus-first.
On January 01 2013 08:02 Jowj wrote: Chobo, if a protoss scouts you going hatch hatch pool he can just reactively all in and win. Defenestrator isn't saying "it's uncommon so we don't need to discuss it", he's saying it's unreliable/unsafe to do that.
Going hatch hatch pool loses to FFE openings and gateway openings so I'm really not sure under what circumstances you would do this.
All openings can be abused one way or another. You say hatch hatch pool loses to FFE openings and gateway openings and therefore its not relevant to bring up? I say this build loses to hatch hatch pool so therefor this build is not relevant?
What kind of logic is that
I believe you just made a solid argument for yourself there.
On January 01 2013 08:02 Jowj wrote: Chobo, if a protoss scouts you going hatch hatch pool he can just reactively all in and win. Defenestrator isn't saying "it's uncommon so we don't need to discuss it", he's saying it's unreliable/unsafe to do that.
Going hatch hatch pool loses to FFE openings and gateway openings so I'm really not sure under what circumstances you would do this.
All openings can be abused one way or another. You say hatch hatch pool loses to FFE openings and gateway openings and therefore its not relevant to bring up? I say this build loses to hatch hatch pool so therefor this build is not relevant?
What kind of logic is that
I believe you just made a solid argument for yourself there.
On January 01 2013 08:02 Jowj wrote: Chobo, if a protoss scouts you going hatch hatch pool he can just reactively all in and win. Defenestrator isn't saying "it's uncommon so we don't need to discuss it", he's saying it's unreliable/unsafe to do that.
Going hatch hatch pool loses to FFE openings and gateway openings so I'm really not sure under what circumstances you would do this.
All openings can be abused one way or another. You say hatch hatch pool loses to FFE openings and gateway openings and therefore its not relevant to bring up? I say this build loses to hatch hatch pool so therefor this build is not relevant?
What kind of logic is that.
Edit: What circumstances you would open Hatch Hatch Pool? I would if I were playing against PartinG if he didnt 9Pylon-scout. Kid loves his blind Nexus-first.
Its not rock paper scissors. Both sides can always do some dumb allin or extra greedy opening. As far as delaying the pool so much, protoss can do some really simple allins from gate expands that don't have much to fear vs delayed tech.
Also worth mentioning is that you gain a lot of minerals by not 9 scouting or by not blocking your wall with a probe.
On January 01 2013 08:02 Jowj wrote: Chobo, if a protoss scouts you going hatch hatch pool he can just reactively all in and win. Defenestrator isn't saying "it's uncommon so we don't need to discuss it", he's saying it's unreliable/unsafe to do that.
Going hatch hatch pool loses to FFE openings and gateway openings so I'm really not sure under what circumstances you would do this.
All openings can be abused one way or another. You say hatch hatch pool loses to FFE openings and gateway openings and therefore its not relevant to bring up? I say this build loses to hatch hatch pool so therefor this build is not relevant?
What kind of logic is that.
Edit: What circumstances you would open Hatch Hatch Pool? I would if I were playing against PartinG if he didnt 9Pylon-scout. Kid loves his blind Nexus-first.
Its not rock paper scissors. Both sides can always do some dumb allin or extra greedy opening. As far as delaying the pool so much, protoss can do some really simple allins from gate expands that don't have much to fear vs delayed tech.
Also worth mentioning is that you gain a lot of minerals by not 9 scouting or by not blocking your wall with a probe.
Although I'm not a P/Z player so I can't test this directly, I'd like to see more people trying this and giving results. I'm particularly interested to see if there's a way to achieve the same outcome while making the build appear more similar to Parting's opening. I really like the way this guide is written and the build was conceived, nice job.
On December 31 2012 12:12 Defenestrator wrote: Looks solid if you can get a 1gate FE off without harass. Maybe this is a dumb question though, but vs 1gate FE as a Z player I will usually try to pressure with lings since I consider it to be a pretty greedy build with insufficient defense. Do you struggle vs this at all?
Unless you go for gas before pool for super fast speedlings, i think a one gate expo is very safe. At least on all maps with a reasonable choke point at the natural. So if you dont go blindly for gas first against protoss, i would strongly recommend you just forget about ling pressure but focus on overlord scouting and ofc the standard 2-4 lings to see if he is poking with zealot stalker or going straight for sentries. If he goes sentry before he gets a stalker you should have a good 3 min window for massive droning. Stalker zealot poke you will probably need something like 8 lings + 1-2 queens to hold it away without any discomfort.
1 zeal + 2 sentries is just not enough to even stop 12-20 slowlings, I don't think (with speed obviously being researched since he opened 1base). Maybe this is the incorrect response, but typically if I see 1-base openers I'll lay off on droning until they expand since I'm not sure if they're going 4gate anyway and opt for more lings. Usually I hit right as they're setting up their wall at the nat, and really without a cannon it's extremely tough to safely expand, at least against opponents I've faced. I'm not sure of the precise timings for 1gate expo but 1zeal-2sentry expand used to be super unsafe in the earlier days of SC2 for sure.
Im not gonna say you cant win a few games doing this. But if the protoss plays well he should defend that sorta thing on all maps with a small choke at natural. Once you have wall with zealot choke, 1 or 2 sentries you can hold off a serious amount of lings.. especially with a forge on the way or already done.. Basically the mass of early zerglings is an all-in, and not a good one since every protoss player who plays gate-core-expo prepares for it (and sometimes even prays the zerg will do it coz they know they can hold).
mass ling builds worked vs gateway expands on metalopolis. The new maps where every natural has a tight easy choke to FF makes those ling builds bad today.
the 3gate sentry would never have been popular if the maps werent like metalopolis / xelnaga with impossible naturals
Ok, I played a bit with it today. If I follow the build and opp is going fast mutas, I can't win. He will defend the attack too easily. Getting the obs after the second immortal after scouting a late third didn't help much, as at that point I am not prepared to defend mutas anyway. Than I tried obs before the first immortal. This allowed be to abort the attack earlier and try to defend mutas, but I couldn't do it successfully. Might be fault though, my execution wasn't that great. I didn't test the impact of having a late obs on the efficiency of the build against non-muta play though.
I am currently leaning towards just not doing the all-in when there is no third or late third (scouting with the zealot/sentry poke), and proceed to get obs, twilight and gases, playing a standard game.
Please take this with a grain of salt, I am not a pro or even half-good, someone with better execution might have very different results.
Firstly in the perspective of a bo3 I think this is a great build. In terms of something you can play solidly on ladder I'm not sure. It feels a bit risky, maybe you could walk the expansion with a gate but then 6 pool is an issue, so it's hard to say
How about getting the other two gas just before you move out and put 2 probes in each gas? I think this will get you more gas (= more sentry reinforcement) and the few mineral loss will not hurt you too much when you reinforce with mostly sentries.
Since you have gas income sooner for the sentries and move out with more forcefields, maybe you can fit hallucination into this build for scouting 2 base muta?
You can then even add a little more and since you technically have more forcefields than a standard immortal/sentry all-in, if you're confident in your forcefielding you could hallucinate a warp prism to feint a 3 sentry free win ramp drop to possibly get Zerg to pull some units back, maybe letting you move further into the map or forcefield off their frontal choke also resulting in a "freewin." (i've done this before with success PvZ to get Zerg to change which ramp they're defending, then you just FF the opposite ramp and freewin, just haven't tried it with your opening).
Just an idea since you already have more sentry energy to use, you can probably allocate at least 100 energy to an extra hallucination.
It's certainly interesting, but I don't feel like it's anywhere near as good as the Parting build, because it's a 1-gate expansion which leaves you either blind and/or vulnerable. Possibly good for a tournament (especially if you know your opponent won't drone-scout), but as Zerg, I'm going to see no FFE, take gas immediately and tech to speed as fast as is humanly possible and build a few extra lings to hide my infestor or mutalisk tech on 2 bases. I'm going to kill your 4-sentry/1-zealot moveout and then I'm going to attempt a run-by. FFE is safer and you will normally be able to scout the third as it's much earlier.
If Zerg play blind this is obviously better, but if they play correctly I fell they'll have Mutas (and a spine wall) when you attack and they'll always have the spine wall because you don't build a stalker so you won't realistically be able to stop Zerg scouting you.
Where I really like this build though is in HotS. It'll be frickin' sweet! It'll be safer, stronger and it'll also be easier to scout.
On January 02 2013 11:50 althaz wrote: It's certainly interesting, but I don't feel like it's anywhere near as good as the Parting build, because it's a 1-gate expansion which leaves you either blind and/or vulnerable. Possibly good for a tournament (especially if you know your opponent won't drone-scout), but as Zerg, I'm going to see no FFE, take gas immediately and tech to speed as fast as is humanly possible and build a few extra lings to hide my infestor or mutalisk tech on 2 bases. I'm going to kill your 4-sentry/1-zealot moveout and then I'm going to attempt a run-by. FFE is safer and you will normally be able to scout the third as it's much earlier.
If Zerg play blind this is obviously better, but if they play correctly I fell they'll have Mutas (and a spine wall) when you attack and they'll always have the spine wall because you don't build a stalker so you won't realistically be able to stop Zerg scouting you.
Where I really like this build though is in HotS. It'll be frickin' sweet! It'll be safer, stronger and it'll also be easier to scout.
Any protoss who gateway core expands will not do an allin unless he knows the z tries to take an early third base. That's what this build punishes.
If you go 2 base tech, I'm going to transition into a twilight council from this build. I will not execute this build unless you go for an early 3rd. If, for some reason, I am unable to scout the third (has never happened to me) then I will transition.
Furthermore, you're trying to metagame this build in your post. There are several gateway core builds out there, most popular of which is stargate. If you take the risk of going 2 base tech against phoenix play, you may as well type gg.
On January 02 2013 11:50 althaz wrote: It's certainly interesting, but I don't feel like it's anywhere near as good as the Parting build, because it's a 1-gate expansion which leaves you either blind and/or vulnerable. Possibly good for a tournament (especially if you know your opponent won't drone-scout), but as Zerg, I'm going to see no FFE, take gas immediately and tech to speed as fast as is humanly possible and build a few extra lings to hide my infestor or mutalisk tech on 2 bases. I'm going to kill your 4-sentry/1-zealot moveout and then I'm going to attempt a run-by. FFE is safer and you will normally be able to scout the third as it's much earlier.
If Zerg play blind this is obviously better, but if they play correctly I fell they'll have Mutas (and a spine wall) when you attack and they'll always have the spine wall because you don't build a stalker so you won't realistically be able to stop Zerg scouting you.
Where I really like this build though is in HotS. It'll be frickin' sweet! It'll be safer, stronger and it'll also be easier to scout.
The 1gate expand robo is probably more safe in hots but unfortunately swarm hosts kind of shut down the immortal all in pretty hard
I kind of like this, especially since it avoids FFE, which puts the economies in unfavorable positions for P imo.
I know that the point of this build is to get gases sooner, but I'd be curious to see if an even more efficient version could come from a Forge-less FE. The minerals spent on Forge/Cannon at the front could lead to earlier gas/tech and the FE would mean faster probe production and earlier access to the 2 extra geysers.
On January 02 2013 10:36 bertu wrote: Ok, I played a bit with it today. If I follow the build and opp is going fast mutas, I can't win. He will defend the attack too easily. Getting the obs after the second immortal after scouting a late third didn't help much, as at that point I am not prepared to defend mutas anyway. Than I tried obs before the first immortal. This allowed be to abort the attack earlier and try to defend mutas, but I couldn't do it successfully. Might be fault though, my execution wasn't that great. I didn't test the impact of having a late obs on the efficiency of the build against non-muta play though.
I am currently leaning towards just not doing the all-in when there is no third or late third (scouting with the zealot/sentry poke), and proceed to get obs, twilight and gases, playing a standard game.
Please take this with a grain of salt, I am not a pro or even half-good, someone with better execution might have very different results.
The immortal sentry all-in is mainly designed to kill zergs who go fast three hatch before they can get proper saturation/tech to fend it off. If a zerg rushes for lair (i.e gets it before 7 minutes) it's fairly hard for an immortal sentry push to kill either a player with a decent amount infestors (your sentries go bye bye) or mutas (a lair before 7 minutes means the mutas can run to your base while you move out). That being said, I've tried this a couple times and it honestly works out kind of similar to opening FFE in my opinion, it is probably slightly weaker to fast 3 base mutalisk builds as well, as I'd imagine it's harder to get a huge amount of stalkers with only 2 gas even if you have 8 gateways.
On January 02 2013 12:35 MateShade wrote: The 1gate expand robo is probably more safe in hots but unfortunately swarm hosts kind of shut down the immortal all in pretty hard
Not true, they need infestation pit up to get swarm hosts, and swarm hosts are really expensive. I can't imagine how they would have enough swarm hosts to hold a huge all-in from protoss at 10 minutes. Of course if they 2 base it and just rush for lair and swarm hosts because they assume that the protoss will immortal sentry all-in, then they should be able to hold it.
On January 02 2013 11:50 althaz wrote: It's certainly interesting, but I don't feel like it's anywhere near as good as the Parting build, because it's a 1-gate expansion which leaves you either blind and/or vulnerable. Possibly good for a tournament (especially if you know your opponent won't drone-scout), but as Zerg, I'm going to see no FFE, take gas immediately and tech to speed as fast as is humanly possible and build a few extra lings to hide my infestor or mutalisk tech on 2 bases. I'm going to kill your 4-sentry/1-zealot moveout and then I'm going to attempt a run-by. FFE is safer and you will normally be able to scout the third as it's much earlier.
If Zerg play blind this is obviously better, but if they play correctly I fell they'll have Mutas (and a spine wall) when you attack and they'll always have the spine wall because you don't build a stalker so you won't realistically be able to stop Zerg scouting you.
Where I really like this build though is in HotS. It'll be frickin' sweet! It'll be safer, stronger and it'll also be easier to scout.
Your zerg response is, I think, taking into account too much how much you know about the protoss. Taking gas and getting speed is reasonable, but think about it, you've scouted a protoss going gate core, you're not sure what he's doing yet, would you really be comfortable just mining 4 gas super early and teching with no information other than he's gone gate gore? And then you see the expand, you see him putting up a wall off, would you immediately think "MASS ZERGLING!" when he already has a wall and an expansion, which means that in all likelihood, if he just sits home, your zerglings are useless?
And as for killing the move out, that's also way too optimistic, why would you have 20 speedlings out for no reason prior to the moveout? It's much more likely that you make units AFTER he moves out because it looks like he's attacking, in which case, those units are wasted because he can hide behind a walled off natural with FFs and roach/ling will have a tough time breaking it down.
I agree about the part with HotS though, mothership core is so nice for scouting, and you can always send it out a little bit ahead of your immortal sentry moveout to make sure there's not like 30 speedlings waiting to surround you before you get a warp in cycle. And with it, the immortal sentry all-in will actually be less all-in too, because if you see yourself losing, rather than losing all your immortal and sentries because they're slow as shit, you can just mass recall, and still have a really good sentry count and expand completely safe against any roach-ling aggression since you have 3 immortals, high sentry count, and 8 gateways.
i've been going 2 gate FE (nony's bo) into immo/sentry allin and its strikingly similar to this, dedicated early roach ling all-ins make it hard for 1 gate, no? on bigger maps i can see it working though.
its pretty much a very similar build, ill post reps. i add 5 gates to 7 before i push out, robo makes obs->3 immos, i move out with third immo almost done and 2 extra high energy sentries to your picture due to the earlier 2nd gate. i probe to 16+16+6 (plus a couple extra for pylons) so its very allin. i do chrono a wp as im moving out but still bring probes out so i can setup pylons earlier and get my first warp-in fast (since otherwise the mins pile up)
The strenght of parting build is to overwhelm the zerg with constant forcefields. He uses zealots as a wall to defend his sentries and has gas income out of 4 geysers warp in sentries. Plus he can follow it up with another all in if he fails the first one.
Pure zealot immortal can be kind of crappy unless you FF the entire Zerg first wave and he loses his momentum right then and there. When the Toss reaches critical mass of stalkers its gg for Zerg if he doesn't wear you down, as your DPS behind forcefields is simply to great.
On January 02 2013 15:37 ProfessionalNoob wrote: Your zerg response is, I think, taking into account too much how much you know about the protoss. Taking gas and getting speed is reasonable, but think about it, you've scouted a protoss going gate core, you're not sure what he's doing yet, would you really be comfortable just mining 4 gas super early and teching with no information other than he's gone gate gore? And then you see the expand, you see him putting up a wall off, would you immediately think "MASS ZERGLING!" when he already has a wall and an expansion, which means that in all likelihood, if he just sits home, your zerglings are useless?
And as for killing the move out, that's also way too optimistic, why would you have 20 speedlings out for no reason prior to the moveout? It's much more likely that you make units AFTER he moves out because it looks like he's attacking, in which case, those units are wasted because he can hide behind a walled off natural with FFs and roach/ling will have a tough time breaking it down.
Thanks a lot for this part. It seems like a lot of people that don't know a lot about zerg tend to theorycraft with unrealistic scenarios which are only possible if the zerg knows what you're doing from the start and metagames you. This can be prevented by being capable of doing alternative builds that look the same.
On January 02 2013 23:25 DarKcS wrote: Pure zealot immortal can be kind of crappy unless you FF the entire Zerg first wave and he loses his momentum right then and there. When the Toss reaches critical mass of stalkers its gg for Zerg if he doesn't wear you down, as your DPS behind forcefields is simply to great.
I disagree some, ~17.5 +1 zealots > 10 stalkers fighting pretty much anything, they are much better against lings, unthinkably better at breaking spine walls and more cost efficient against pure roach if you can get them into melee range (moving out with standard sentry immortal all in, 8 sentries and then going to 10-15 you can easily do this). They are also much better meatshields for your immortals and you can prism micro to make the zealot>stalker difference even greater because zerg cant hope to kill most of your ranged units or any of your immortals without running straight at you and face tanking your entire army of zealots.
PartinG goes very zealot heavy and it definitely seems a lot stronger to me with the correct timings.
If you dont warp any stalkers in the first couple of waves as well, you can approach and attack the zerg much more aggressively - you will fare much better in small trades or against any lings or flanks he could make, you dont need to blow nearly as many forcefields to protect your units crossing the map, etc.
I cant say specifically for this version of the all in (i personally believe the FFE one to be better overall for a lot of small reasons and dont want to write a few thousand word essay right now) but in my experience, leaving base before 9 minutes and warping pure sentry/zeal for the first 1 or 2 warpgate waves allows for a much stronger and faster push, allowing you to hit the zerg before 10:00 with room to spare on ohana, which are timings most people dont even come close to. The focus on zealots helps to push those timings down a lot.
Unless i make a mistake, im undefeated vs low-mid master zergs with it.