You can follow me @GosuGlon for Stream times/link, future guides, replay packs, ect
Hey all - This is where I am going to be putting all of my zerg guides (For both Wings and HOTS). I run the Zerg Help Me Thread (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=154642) and will be linking to this thread from there.
First, an introduction. I am a top 16 Grandmasters zerg (with as many as 3 accounts in the top 16 at once, peaking several times at #1 Grandmaster on the North American server). I have attended multiple MLGs and have many online tournament results. For details, check out my liquidpedia page here:
I am also currently playing HOTS with most of my time, finishing this stage of the beta at GM rank 5, as the #1 globally ranked zerg player. I will be spending the majority of my time playing the beta.
Before we even discuss build orders: YOUR FIRST 3 (THREE) Overlord MUST go across the map. Generally, your first overlord should head towards your opponent's natural, next one to your opponent's third (or some place near it that gives you as much vision as possible), and third one to the middle of the map. Future overlords can be placed at your own discretion, it may be a good choice to leave them near your base to avoid being picked off.
There are 3 basic openers that can be done in the ZvZ matchup: fast pool (6,7,8,10,11), standard pool into expand, and hatchery first. I will outline standard build orders for each opener below, and add general strategy tips below these over the next couple of weeks.
1. The fast spawning pool
I would discourage any of you from opening a 6 or 7 spawning pool. While yes, these builds CAN work, they have no follow up and are as all in as you can get. Therefore, I would encourage you to open up with a 10 or 11 pool.
Standard build order: -10 overlord -11 drone -11 spawning pool -14 queen/6 lings
Here, you have a choice. You can take a gas (like Life does, plan on aggression, usually all in) OR you can take your natural hatchery.
Now, when your lings run into your opponents base: -If your opponent opened 14 pool, start focusing down your opponent's building hatchery. The point here is to either force a cancel on your opponent's hatchery, OR to kill drones if your opponent pulls them to defend the building hatchery. Remember that you're looking to cause economic damage here to either help you when you all in later (if you took speed) or to get ahead as your take your own hatchery
The After: The Trivial - After your harassment has been done, pull back to your natural. Generally, you will want to get a spine - remember that your opponent will have more larva than you and thus potentially more zerglings. 2 queens should be blocking your ramp, and when possible morph 1-2 banelings for defense.
Moving into the mid game - Remember that, if you killed more than 2 drones or canceled your opponent's hatchery, you are ahead. If you forced a drone pull but only got 1-2 drones, you are even with your opponent. If you forced a drone pull but did not kill any drones, you are far behind your opponent.
-If you are ahead of your opponent: I would suggest going for 2 base mutalisks. When the player that is ahead goes for fast mutalisks, it allows him to start a snowball effect that will result in a massive supply lead. Keep in mind that, as the mutalisk player, you will have far more time than normal to get your damage done before your opponent gets out infestors or mutalisks of their own (in which case you have a free win).
-If you are even with your opponent: Take your pick of strategy. I will add segments on how to play mutalisks, how to play infestor ling, and how to play roach/hydra/infestor at a later point
-If you are behind your opponent: This is a tricky spot. You can attempt to go for a baneling all in follow up and hope that your opponent over made drones. However, this is a situation that relies on luck for success. Going for a roach/baneling all in generally will not work - even if your opponent goes for mutalisks, they will have enough of an early lead to build defense and get their mutalisks out. I would suggest going for fast infestors here with burrow if your opponent takes a fast third - you can hope for some lucky burrowed infestor harass while at the same time have an efficient defense with well placed fungal growths.
The Standard 14 Pool
This is THE MOST standard build, and if you are looking to improve, this is the build to learn and master. It can be used in ANY situation, on ANY map and can defend ANY all in (if scouted) while also having the potential to keep up with any macro build from your opponent.
The Build: -14 spawning pool -15 hatchery -14 drone -15 queen -17 overlord -17 gas -16 zergling
If your opponent takes a 14 pool or 15 hatchery, use your 2 early lings to scout out your opponent's base. I prefer to take a baneling nest on 50 gas and speed on the next 100 gas mined, however you can flip the order you get these 2 buildings if you wish. Enter a standard mid game!
If your opponent chooses to go for an aggressive spawning pool, there are several different deviations that you must memorize and react to depending on what you see. However, it is always standard to stop mining gas and/or cancel your extractor if possible, you'll need all the minerals you can get to defend and then recover to a favorable position.
Situations: -If your opponent pulls drones with his zerglings: You MUST cancel your natural hatchery. Generally, your goal here is simply to STALL until you are able to get a sizable number of zerglings/queen/spine crawler. Be sure to also cancel any spine crawlers being built before your opponent's lings/drones get to your base - any delay helps! When your opponent's lings/drones enter your base, mineral walk your drones to your natural mineral patch, build a queen, and build lings. Try to sneak 1 of your drones behind your mineral line before hand to build a spine crawler. As a general rule, when your queen pops you can fight your opponent. You will have 8-10 zerglings, and more drones. Continue to rally zerglings and micro as best as possible (pull back lings/drones, ect). Keep in mind that it is IDEAL to engage when all of your minerals are spent - you will have as many units as possible at this point.
-If your opponent does NOT pull drones with his zerglings: The goal of your opponent here is to cancel your natural hatchery. Once you see your opponent's zerglings crossing the map with your first overlord, immediately build an overlord and pump out lings as larva permits. Grab a queen after building your initial 4 lings. Generally, you will want to pull 4 drones with your initial 4 zerglings (2 drones for each extra ling your opponent has over you). Continue to build lings if your opponent does - your opponent SHOULD take a hatchery, however if he does not, block your ramp with 2 queens and grab a spine crawler (you will scout this with your first overlord). Be careful to not lose drones - if you don't lose any, you will be far ahead and in a winning position. See above for what to do if ahead/behind your opponent.
The Hatchery First
Generally, this play relies on a larger map OR the player having excellent micro skills to hold off early aggression. Realize that going for a hatchery first puts you in a vulnerable position to several all in plays - however, the early economic boost is always welcome
The Build: -15 hatchery -16 spawning pool -17 gas -When spawning pool finishes, grab 2 queens. Again, I prefer to grab a baneling nest on 50 gas in order to play very safely, and then start zergling speed on 100 gas. However, this is a small touch that I may make a short write up about if anyone shows any interest (copied from Scarlett/Leenock).
If your opponent goes for a 14 spawning pool or 15 hatchery, play standard. Your pick of what unit composition you would like to build towards.
If your opponent goes for a 6-10 pool, you're in a tricky spot. You will have to cancel your natural hatchery if your opponent does not pull drones (only lings) and will be behind your opponent (although not so far behind that you cannot recover with a few nice plays). If your opponent chooses to pull drones, hide 2 drones behind your main mineral line (canceling your natural). Mineral walk your drones to your natural, and clog up the ramp to prevent further reinforcements. If you can stall until your queen and lings come out, you may be able to hold off and win. However, this is a tricky situation that relies on your opponent making a mistake in order for you to win the game.
The Basics To start, your first 2 overlords should move across the map. Your first overlord needs to check your opponents natural to confirm whether your opponent went for a gateway --> cybernetics build or a forge fast expand. Your first overlord should then move into the main base, moving to a place of safety immediately if your opponent is going for a fast stalker or just hanging out near the main nexus if your opponent did not. Your second overlord should go to some place near the natural (the point is that you see the natural gasses, or can move your overlord in to see them at a specific point).
Whenever I teach students ZvP, I tell them to remember 2 timings: 6:30 and ~10:00. At 6:30, the zerg player needs to scout the protoss with his 2 overlords - the main overlord moving into the main to attempt to see the tech buildings the protoss put down and the natural overlord moving into the protoss natural to see how many gasses the protoss player took.
If the protoss player took only 1 gas at his natural, play like he only has 2 total gasses. The protoss player is likely going for a fast third base or for a gateway all in.
If the protoss player took 2 gasses at his natural, play like he has 4 total gasses. This could be any range of possibilities - a sentry heavy three base (not common at all), double stargate, blink all in, or the ever common immortal sentry all in (Mavvie's guide to defend immortal sentry).
The next timing is at ~10:00, which students must remember. At this timing is when most 2 base protoss all ins will hit. If your opponent is on 2 bases and you have 60 drones, you should only be making units (this SHOULD BE at around the 8:30-9:00 for a professional, however it may be later if your macro is not spot on. That's OK -- learn what 60 drones looks like spread out across 3 bases and estimate while in game). As a general rule, do not stop making units until your opponent takes a third - yes, professionals DO sometimes drone, however as a GENERAL rule continue to produce units.
Finally, my last overarching piece of advice, is to always have a zergling behind your opponent's third base. Get in the habit of doing this - it will let you know if/when your opponent takes a third, in which case you may stop making units, and proceed into a macro game.
The Build If your opponent goes for a forge fast expand: -14 spawning pool -15 hatchery* -14 drone -15 queen -17 overlord -17 zergling -Hatchery @ third after second queen in main*
*If your opponent pylon blocks your natural, move your drone to your third and another drone from your main to your natural (to see if the protoss cancels his pylon or not). If your opponent next pylon blocks your third, immediately build an overlord/queen/lings. Just be sure to spend all of your larva, and not stack up larva. Remember that your opponent is spending a significant amount of money on pylons, so it will be OK.
If your opponent goes for a gateway --> cybernetics core: -14 spawning pool -15 hatchery* -14 drone -15 queen -17 overlord -17 zergling -17 gas
*In this case, if your opponent pylon blocks your natural, DO NOT take your third. While some pros choose to take their thirds first anyways, I do not suggest it unless you are very confident in your micro/timings - one bad click and the game will be over to stalker pressure. Instead just build your queen/overlord/4-6 lings before taking your natural.
Remember to be careful of any kind of 4 gate scenarios - if your overlord (it will be your second one for 90% of maps) sees no natural expansion at the 5:30 mark, you're being 4 gated. Spine and ling up - don't be afraid to spend energy on transfuses if need be. Defend, and you will be OK (you can pull off gas after starting ling speed in this situation as well - it's all you will really need to continue defending, and any extra gas mined is just wasted resources).
****Between the 2 - assuming that your protoss opponent is on 2 bases - you should be taking 2 gasses at the 6 minute mark. At 100 gas, begin lair, a roach warren, and an evolution chamber. When lair is ~50% done, add 2 more gasses (bringing you up to a total of 4). With your next 100 gas, begin researching ling speed. When lair is done, you should have roach speed and +1 ranged attack researching as well. Don't forget to throw down a macro hatchery when money permits, this is usually put down in the main.
The Macro Game So - you've scouted your opponent's taking a third base. First things first - assuming that your opponent does not have a warp prism harassing you, take any units you may have built in case of a 3 base all in and move them into an aggressive stance outside of your opponent's 3 bases. As you get better, you will figure out how to poke and harass your opponent without losing units to forcefield traps, ect.
At home, you should be taking a fourth base, adding a second evolution chamber (I like researching missile and melee upgrades, leaving armor until hive when I take a third evolution chamber), and droning up. GENERALLY, you want to OVERDRONE your fourth base a tad, in order to place down a spine crawler wall (but still be mining adequately). Tech to infestors, and build units to defend any pushes while teching to hive. Usually, players start their hives at around the 12:00-12:30 mark in order to have brood lords out in a reasonable time. I would discourage players from taking their hive sooner than this point - it leaves them vulnerable to certain 3 base all ins; as well as later from this point - players often get stuck in a low tech late game that simply does not work versus the monstrous protoss death ball.
The Late Game Engagement Assuming that your protoss opponent is not going air-toss (carriers, mothership, void rays oh my! (have 6 brood lords to focus templar, rest of army should consist of queen/infestor/corrupter)), your army should consist of: -5-6 queens -8-12 infestors -~15-20 brood lords -~5-10 corrupters (Keep in mind that you will be on ~50-60 drones at this point) (Also don't forget about overseers - I like to get ~4 to be safe)
There should be NO FIGHT that you take that you don't want. Any fight you take you should be presplit, with infestors and queens under or slightly behind the brood lord wall to avoid feedbacks. Throw down a thin(ish) wall of infested terrans - remember you don't want to spend too much energy on this, only enough to take away some fire - and make sure that everything is attacking. In these fights, the zerg player is forced to manually select units and micro them away or forward for specific spells. Here is what the professional is doing in such a late game engagement: try to copy as much of it as possible, however don't be overwhelmed. As long as your units are presplit and you're spamming fungal/infested terrans along with some transfuse, you'll be OK (a few attempted neural's never hurt anyone either).
Ideal micro: -1-2 burrowed infestors behind or beside your opponent's army at all times, dodging detection while also looking for a neural on the mothership -Select forward infestors to throw down infested terrans, move to back of fight to conserve for later engagements -Kite back with brood lords - Get into a rhythm, however only kite back brood lords that are under threat of stalkers. Generally, with good fungals, stalkers will only have 1 potential forward blink -Corrupters focused on colossus - Generally, the mothership will be neuralled or can be chased down after the fight anyways, colossi are more important -Constantly select 1 infestor and move forward for an attemped neural on the mothership - if you get it, instantly waste it's energy on vortexes on your opponent's army -Whenever templar come forward, pull back queens/infestors and focus closest 3-5 brood lords on the templar -Look for chain fungal growths - specifically on the stalkers - these are the most important part of the standard protoss late game that must die
Oh, and don't forget to expand - it's never fun running out of money.
Overlord placement can be tricky, map depending. However, most maps allow players to move their first 2 overlords out across the map to helpful positions. For more information, I would suggest watching some player's stream for overlord placement hints.
The Basics Almost all builds in Zerg Versus Terran start off with a 15 hatchery. To deal with 2 barracks play, I would heavily suggest scouting on 15 supply with a drone. Both drones are generally from your main mineral line at the same time, one building the hatchery at your natural and the other moving across the map to scout your opponent. Alternatively, some players opt to go for a earlier scout, sent as early as 12 supply, because they feel insecure holding off 2 barracks play. Each player should make their own choice for each map, depending on how confident they are on holding off this early cheese.
The Basic Build -15 hatchery -16 spawning pool -2 queens when pool finishes ...
If you would like to tech -17-21 gas -Speed @ 100 -At Next 150 gas, 2 evolution chambers -Start 1/1. Get rest of gasses, expand.
If you would like to take a fast third -2 more queens (queen 3/4). Move initial 2 queens after inject to front of natural to begin creep spread (Queen 3/4 will be injecting) -Take third immediately when minerals available (should be ~ when Queen 3/4 are at 50-75% complete) -Take 2 gasses at same time as taking third (do not delay) -Generally, players gas progression is: Ling Speed, 1/1, start lair (2 more gasses), lair finishes (last 2 gasses)
I did not bother to put in exact supply counts since your build order will depend on what your opponent does. If you have to build more lings, delay these timings in order to get out more drones and not be mineral starved.
Defending the 2 barracks play The very first thing you must do is IDENTIFY that it is a 2 barracks play. With your 15 scout, move into your opponents main base. If you see 1 barracks building at the top of your opponent's ramp, it's USUALLY not a 2 barracks play (but still could be). Generally, your terran friend will take his natural expansion at the 3:08 mark - if you don't see this, start getting suspicious. Send a drone to the watchtower, just to check. Another clear giveaway is if your opponent sends more than 1 SCV to "scout." If so, you're PROBABLY being 2 barracks rushed. If you see 2 barracks building, you've identified the build. If you see no barracks building (and no gas), keep in mind that your opponent can be doing 1 of 3 things: proxy 2 barracks, proxy 1 barracks to pressure, and finally command center first. The proper thing to do here is to search with both your scouting drone AND 1 drone from your main for barracks play - if you can't find any quickly in the most likely spots - move one of your drones to a watchtower or a position in front of your base where you can see pressure coming.
OK, so now you've identified the 2 barracks play. Great - good for you - you should be OK. Keep 1 drone in front of your natural, checking for bunkers. Keep in mind that you don't want to over pull drones - you want to mine AS MUCH money as possible before sending all of your drones to defend. When you see the first bunker building, pull ~5 drones. 2 bunker rushes generally happen in STAGES:
STAGE 1: 2/3 SCV + 1 Marine versus ~ 6/7 drones. This is the initial poke by terran, aimed at getting up an initial bunker (if this bunker goes up, chances are you've lost the game). Here, your goal is to stick 2 drones on his marine, the rest killing SCVs. Ideally, your goal should also be to kill the building bunker, however, if you can't, stay calm and proceed to stage 2.
STAGE 2: Multiple SCVs (depends how many terran pulls) + 4/6 marines versus everything. For this push, pull all but 2 drones from your main to your natural. Immediately when your hatchery finishes, build a spine crawler at the BACK of the base, so the terran player cannot snipe it before it becomes useful. IF you have the money, build a queen at your natural (depends on if you panicked in Stage 1 and over pulled drones + your drone micro in Stage 1 - how well did you pull hurt drones back?) Otherwise, pump out zerglings and wait for your terran friend to overextend. Generally, there is a timing when you have 8-10 zerglings (+ all of your drones) and the bunker is not done for the terran player yet that you may choose to use and try and break the terran player - you judge whether your micro is good enough compared to your opponents to see if you can exploit this timing. If you do manage to clean up the bunker/SCVs, forcing the marines back, you are in a winning position for the game, and move down to stage 4. Otherwise, your goal is to defend your spine crawler and get it into position, continually making zerglings.
STAGE 3: This is the runbye stage. Generally, players try to run 8 lings by their opponents bunker in order to pick off or stop your terran opponent from reinforcing. Try to pick a path around the bunker that gives the least amount of hits to your terran opponent. This tactic is then transitioned into a 'crunch' manuever, where you now have ~6 lings on the other side of your opponent's bunker, and are able to pull everything in a more effective way to kill the bunker, ect. Try to engage when your hatchery is at ~400 health -- you don't want to engage TOO SOON, because that would mean losing out on a potentially larger force. However, keep in mind that your opponent may choose to just focus your hatchery when you engage - so you want some amount of breathing room to clear out your opponent's forces.
STAGE 4: Assuming that you aren't dead, you've now held off the bunker rush. Even if you have lost 5-6 drones, remember that you have also killed an equivalent amount of SCVs from your opponent - plus you've had more mining time AND more bases! The MOST IMPORTANT thing to do here is to scout whether your opponent is expanding, gotten gas for a cheeky follow up all in, or is throwing down 2 more barracks for a follow up all in play. Generally, simply scouting whether or not your opponent has gotten another command center is most important - if he has, play normally (but keep in mind that your opponent will be able to poke with ~12 marines in a couple of minutes) with a huge advantage. If he hasn't, throw down spines (but keep droning), maybe get an extra queen or 2. Defend the all in (this should be relatively easy once you spot the lack of command center), and you've won the game.
Defending Helion/Banshee Aggression Perhaps one of the most common strategies used for aggression in the mid game is the combination of helions and banshees to harass the zerg while the zerg is still trying to establish an economy and teching up to lair. If the zerg player chooses to go for a 2 base tech build, defending helion banshee play shouldn't be a problem - the zerg will have speed lings out and lair tech soon to come in order to defend the helions. However, in general, WHENEVER you see a helion/banshee composition come out: -1 spore per base (yes, even the main) -1 spore between your natural and your third (helps when jumping between bases) -I prefer to get 1 spine at my third (Helps if you under make zerglings, ect) -Make ~16 zerglings AND 1-2 extra queens
Position zerglings to stop helions from entering your natural or third - They're there to prevent runbyes, NOT to chase helions. Basically, your goal is to defend without losing drones until either your terran opponent loses his units in a mistake or until you get lair tech out. Remember to split any zerglings - if the terran player dives with his helions, split the zerglings, pull the drones back, and move the queens/zerglings in. Queens should be focusing down banshees - they are the most dangerous units - while zerglings take care of helions. I am a player who prefers to NOT get up roaches unless I'm facing multiple factories, which requires that you not get caught out of position, and NOT chase helions off of creep.
The Standard Macro Game I will add all in builds at a later time, however for now let's just look at the standard macro game. Options for the zerg range from what I have discussed above, however here we're going to go more in depth into the strategy of such compositions. Let me say right now - I will NOT be discussing roach/hydra play: it very rarely works if both players are of equal skill level and at relatively equal economic/army situations, period. So, for now, let's focus on what compositions zerg can have in the mid game: Infestor ling or mutalisk/baneling/zergling. I will leave out roaches for now - however note that many players get at least a few roaches to help versus early game helions and to supplement their mid game army.
The Mutalisk mid game Generally, this style is filled with harassment, multitasking, and counter attacks. As the mutalisk player, you would rather cut off an army in the middle of the map, wait to macro up a LOT more units, then crush it. Drops shouldn't be too much of a problem, and can be swatted aside easily. In engagements, target groups of banelings at marines and mutalisks to focus down tanks (or, if it's a mech composition, stick to the counter attacks until you have teched to brood lords). In general, your goal should be to overwhelm, and capitalize on any terran mistake or opening that allows you to swoop in and kill a base/get an excellent engagement.
The Infestor mid game This style requires the zerg player to be very conscious of positioning. Being caught out of position just once can cost the zerg player the game - resulting in one/two lost bases or several infestors lost. Remember that yes, while infestors are strong, they rely on being pocketed in a safe place out of enemy fire. Remember that, when using an infestor based composition, your goal should be COST EFFICIENCY, not necessarily overwhelming your opponent with units but having good trades with your opponent that allow you to pull ahead after each engagement. Also keep in mind that it is usually NOT good to fall into the "infested terran trap." Be careful not to blow all of your infestor energy on infested terrans - generally, this will be for a kill move at an opponent's base where he cannot simply retreat and wait for the infested terrans to time out (because his base would die). Also, keep in mind that fungals can be VERY powerful, even against mech compositions. If you can take engagements slowly, doing as much damage with fungal as possible before the fight even happens, you will be much more successful.
The Late Game Currently, I would like to dissuade you from going for an ultralisk composition and sticking to it. While it can be very effective to go for ultralisks, then switch to brood lords, it is usually NOT effective to stick to ultralisks as the game goes later and later (unless you have a big lead, then it really doesn't matter what you do). Therefore, I will now go over what composition your late game army should look like: -6-8 brood lords -~10 infestors -6-8 queens -Rest Corrupter/ling
Keep in mind that you don't need as many brood lords in ZvT as you do in ZvP. The main threat to your brood lords is vikings, and tank splash combined with fungal takes care of marines easily (the marines will be held back, not able to get to the brood lords like stalkers can). Be sure not to be caught out of position, as this is how most players will lose their games. The other major threat is drop play - make sure you have 10-15 lings and 2-4 banelings supplemented by spines and spores at each of your outlying bases, but be careful to watch for dropships that run past these defenses to an inner base that may not be as well protected (spores and maybe leaving 1 infestor can take care of this). Other than that - focus your fungals on clumps of units, be careful not to waste all of your energy on infested terrans, and don't rush into anything you're unsure about - take the late game slow. Happy hunting
Heart of the Swarm
Coming soon
You can post anything in here - Zerg questions, suggestions for future build-guides, questions about what I've written, ect. Keep in mind that this is a first draft - I will be adding to it over time and include VOD links, replays, ect.
For ZvP, why do you suggest the first two overlords go straight to the opponents base? Floating the second over your natural to spot for cannons is generally a better idea, because you can move that OL out when your hatch is ~80% done and still get there with plenty of time to spot for gasses.
On January 02 2013 06:19 SayNoToStim wrote: For ZvP, why do you suggest the first two overlords go straight to the opponents base? Floating the second over your natural to spot for cannons is generally a better idea, because you can move that OL out when your hatch is ~80% done and still get there with plenty of time to spot for gasses.
Yeah I do that to because you are correct, you can get the 2nd overlord in position still easily when leaving it behind for a little bit.
On January 02 2013 06:19 SayNoToStim wrote: For ZvP, why do you suggest the first two overlords go straight to the opponents base? Floating the second over your natural to spot for cannons is generally a better idea, because you can move that OL out when your hatch is ~80% done and still get there with plenty of time to spot for gasses.
Yeah I do that to because you are correct, you can get the 2nd overlord in position still easily when leaving it behind for a little bit.
I don't know why most people don't tbh xD
Nice guides glon.
I prefer to send both directly over, due to the possibility of a gateway opening (in which case you won't be able to send the second one over).
Generally, you can check for cannons at your natural by knowng about probe positioning. If you see the probe leave your base and not come back, send 1 drone down to your natural and see what's going on. It doesn't cost a lot of minerals, and is generally safer anyways (to block a 3 pylon wall)
hi Glon, cant wait for your HotS guides ^^ I really struggle with ZvT when my oponent goes for MMMM or MMM + Hellbats and is really dropheavy. From watching the ZvTs from your replay pack it seems you favore getting really fast Hive and Ultras but you also seem to receve a LOT of damage from Drops while doing so (The game vs Dragon on the starship map thing)
Is there a more optimal way to play vs MMM(M) / Hellbat + Bio or do you simply have to compensate for the damage you receved otherwise?
(Ive been trying around with some Muta Ling Bane into Ultra but it mostly fails because i dont get Ultras in time to defend a huge pushout, especially because hellbats and widdow mines destroy lingBane)
On January 02 2013 07:20 gCgCrypto wrote: hi Glon, cant wait for your HotS guides ^^ I really struggle with ZvT when my oponent goes for MMMM or MMM + Hellbats and is really dropheavy. From watching the ZvTs from your replay pack it seems you favore getting really fast Hive and Ultras but you also seem to receve a LOT of damage from Drops while doing so (The game vs Dragon on the starship map thing)
Is there a more optimal way to play vs MMM(M) / Hellbat + Bio or do you simply have to compensate for the damage you receved otherwise?
(Ive been trying around with some Muta Ling Bane into Ultra but it mostly fails because i dont get Ultras in time to defend a huge pushout, especially because hellbats and widdow mines destroy lingBane)
Medivac speed WILL be nerfed (it's currently imbalanced AF atm), so don't be too worried about that. There will likely still be a medivac speed ability, however the speed boost will be nerfed.
I think in the Dragon game I did a decent job of economic damage - took out his third twice, and natural/fourth once. Keep in mind that, if the terran you're playing is very drop heavy, his army is significantly weaker. Therefore, you can kill his army much more cost efficiently than if the terran is NOT dropping you.
However, to not take as much damage from drops, I'm starting to prefer getting out ~5 corrupters to chase medivacs. Now the only thing that needs to happen is medivac speed not so fast
On January 02 2013 07:20 gCgCrypto wrote: hi Glon, cant wait for your HotS guides ^^ I really struggle with ZvT when my oponent goes for MMMM or MMM + Hellbats and is really dropheavy. From watching the ZvTs from your replay pack it seems you favore getting really fast Hive and Ultras but you also seem to receve a LOT of damage from Drops while doing so (The game vs Dragon on the starship map thing)
Is there a more optimal way to play vs MMM(M) / Hellbat + Bio or do you simply have to compensate for the damage you receved otherwise?
(Ive been trying around with some Muta Ling Bane into Ultra but it mostly fails because i dont get Ultras in time to defend a huge pushout, especially because hellbats and widdow mines destroy lingBane)
Medivac speed WILL be nerfed (it's currently imbalanced AF atm), so don't be too worried about that. There will likely still be a medivac speed ability, however the speed boost will be nerfed.
I think in the Dragon game I did a decent job of economic damage - took out his third twice, and natural/fourth once. Keep in mind that, if the terran you're playing is very drop heavy, his army is significantly weaker. Therefore, you can kill his army much more cost efficiently than if the terran is NOT dropping you.
However, to not take as much damage from drops, I'm starting to prefer getting out ~5 corrupters to chase medivacs. Now the only thing that needs to happen is medivac speed not so fast
Thanks for the quick answer =) will have to wite down the ultralisk build so i can copy it and try it on ladder myself (as soon as the slowmotion bug gets fixed -.-)
On January 02 2013 11:55 Bahku wrote: Great guide! Also I just saw your game vs Dragon that Husky casted, fantastic job! Very close game.
Oo can you link me? I've never seen it
I'm a big fan of Dragon, never heard of you though so gratz on getting your name out there and defeating such a beast. I'm sure you'll be quite flattered when you hear what Husky had to say about this game :p
in ZvZ I was opening 14 pool but I had troubles scouting for 2 bases all ins.. Now I open 14 14 and with early speed I manage to scout all ins. The problem is that if I don't do damages early on, my macro can be really behind and that's getting annoying.
my question is : how do you manage to be safe against all ins with 14 pool or 15 hatch ?
On January 02 2013 16:43 Insoleet wrote: in ZvZ I was opening 14 pool but I had troubles scouting for 2 bases all ins.. Now I open 14 14 and with early speed I manage to scout all ins. The problem is that if I don't do damages early on, my macro can be really behind and that's getting annoying.
my question is : how do you manage to be safe against all ins with 14 pool or 15 hatch ?
15 pool - 16 hatch is a safe build that's better then 14/14. If you think he might be ling all inning you, you can go baneling nest first then speed. If you want to put pressure on early make sure to get speed first of course.
But with 15 hatch there are build sthat will kill you almost no matter what unless zerg really messes up (the other zerg).
On January 02 2013 16:43 Insoleet wrote: in ZvZ I was opening 14 pool but I had troubles scouting for 2 bases all ins.. Now I open 14 14 and with early speed I manage to scout all ins. The problem is that if I don't do damages early on, my macro can be really behind and that's getting annoying.
my question is : how do you manage to be safe against all ins with 14 pool or 15 hatch ?
15 pool - 16 hatch is a safe build that's better then 14/14. If you think he might be ling all inning you, you can go baneling nest first then speed. If you want to put pressure on early make sure to get speed first of course.
But with 15 hatch there are build sthat will kill you almost no matter what unless zerg really messes up (the other zerg).
I dont have problem defending the all ins if i scouted it.
But with 14 pool 15 hatch i feel like i can't go into his main to scout his gas, units, and build tech. Because no speed on my lings.
So i probably need another way to scout for all ins. Drone count on the natural ? But what type of all ins, roachs, banes ? It's not the same answer...
On January 02 2013 16:43 Insoleet wrote: in ZvZ I was opening 14 pool but I had troubles scouting for 2 bases all ins.. Now I open 14 14 and with early speed I manage to scout all ins. The problem is that if I don't do damages early on, my macro can be really behind and that's getting annoying.
my question is : how do you manage to be safe against all ins with 14 pool or 15 hatch ?
15 pool - 16 hatch is a safe build that's better then 14/14. If you think he might be ling all inning you, you can go baneling nest first then speed. If you want to put pressure on early make sure to get speed first of course.
But with 15 hatch there are build sthat will kill you almost no matter what unless zerg really messes up (the other zerg).
I dont have problem defending the all ins if i scouted it.
But with 14 pool 15 hatch i feel like i can't go into his main to scout his gas, units, and build tech. Because no speed on my lings.
So i probably need another way to scout for all ins. Drone count on the natural ? But what type of all ins, roachs, banes ? It's not the same answer...
ok I have 2 ways for you.
On your first 2 lings you should scout with them and try to see if he is potentially doing a ling all in or something (I seriously get it in the other zergs main 99.9% of the time).
Have an overlord behind the natural and keep looking at his drone count. If you see very few drones then you should be expecting some sort of attack soon.
then once your speed finishes sac a ling every once in awhile to see if you can see roaches or anything .
How do you personally deter any 3 pylon block play from Protoss? Do you just always send a drone down to patrol the bottom of the ramp if you see the probe do anything weird?
On January 02 2013 16:43 Insoleet wrote: in ZvZ I was opening 14 pool but I had troubles scouting for 2 bases all ins.. Now I open 14 14 and with early speed I manage to scout all ins. The problem is that if I don't do damages early on, my macro can be really behind and that's getting annoying.
my question is : how do you manage to be safe against all ins with 14 pool or 15 hatch ?
15 pool - 16 hatch is a safe build that's better then 14/14. If you think he might be ling all inning you, you can go baneling nest first then speed. If you want to put pressure on early make sure to get speed first of course.
But with 15 hatch there are build sthat will kill you almost no matter what unless zerg really messes up (the other zerg).
I dont have problem defending the all ins if i scouted it.
But with 14 pool 15 hatch i feel like i can't go into his main to scout his gas, units, and build tech. Because no speed on my lings.
So i probably need another way to scout for all ins. Drone count on the natural ? But what type of all ins, roachs, banes ? It's not the same answer...
Make sure that you're taking your gas on time (17 or 18 is most common). Also remember that, if your opponent is going for a hatch first, you CAN and SHOULD move your overlord into his base and see what gas timing he has taken.
Try going for a baneling nest before speed. Honestly, you won't even want to build zerglings (other than 4~6) until you have both of your bases saturated, and if you see any kind of all in coming, cancel your lair and build banelings (+ more lings) and pull your queens down to your ramp.
Give that a try - if you're losing versus 2 base roach baneling all ins, then my suggestion is to immediately build an overseer when lair finishes and scout what's going on.
How do you personally deter any 3 pylon block play from Protoss? Do you just always send a drone down to patrol the bottom of the ramp if you see the probe do anything weird?
3 pylon blocks are annoying - VERY annoying. Yes, I pretty much do what you're saying - especially if I get a hatch first off (which I sometimes do due to scouting the path a scouting probe would take with my first overlord) I end up just pulling a drone to make sure no 3 pylon blocks are going off.
In the case that a 3 pylon block DOES go off, however, I would suggest doing 1 of 2 things:
1) If the ramp is close to your creep, you can build a spine, stay gassless, build extra queens, and push your way down (then double expand)
2) If the ramp is far from your creep (or just as another option), you can take a gas as soon as you see the wall go up, then build a fast baneling nest. Don't research speed, just get 6 banelings and ~8-10 zerglings and bust the wall down. Pull off of gas after you have enough for the banelings and speed - you need to drone up badly.
On January 02 2013 07:20 gCgCrypto wrote: hi Glon, cant wait for your HotS guides ^^ I really struggle with ZvT when my oponent goes for MMMM or MMM + Hellbats and is really dropheavy. From watching the ZvTs from your replay pack it seems you favore getting really fast Hive and Ultras but you also seem to receve a LOT of damage from Drops while doing so (The game vs Dragon on the starship map thing)
Is there a more optimal way to play vs MMM(M) / Hellbat + Bio or do you simply have to compensate for the damage you receved otherwise?
(Ive been trying around with some Muta Ling Bane into Ultra but it mostly fails because i dont get Ultras in time to defend a huge pushout, especially because hellbats and widdow mines destroy lingBane)
Medivac speed WILL be nerfed (it's currently imbalanced AF atm), so don't be too worried about that. There will likely still be a medivac speed ability, however the speed boost will be nerfed.
I think in the Dragon game I did a decent job of economic damage - took out his third twice, and natural/fourth once. Keep in mind that, if the terran you're playing is very drop heavy, his army is significantly weaker. Therefore, you can kill his army much more cost efficiently than if the terran is NOT dropping you.
However, to not take as much damage from drops, I'm starting to prefer getting out ~5 corrupters to chase medivacs. Now the only thing that needs to happen is medivac speed not so fast
If medivac speed will be nerfed then count with Viper and Ultralisk nerf within your guides.
On January 02 2013 07:20 gCgCrypto wrote: hi Glon, cant wait for your HotS guides ^^ I really struggle with ZvT when my oponent goes for MMMM or MMM + Hellbats and is really dropheavy. From watching the ZvTs from your replay pack it seems you favore getting really fast Hive and Ultras but you also seem to receve a LOT of damage from Drops while doing so (The game vs Dragon on the starship map thing)
Is there a more optimal way to play vs MMM(M) / Hellbat + Bio or do you simply have to compensate for the damage you receved otherwise?
(Ive been trying around with some Muta Ling Bane into Ultra but it mostly fails because i dont get Ultras in time to defend a huge pushout, especially because hellbats and widdow mines destroy lingBane)
Medivac speed WILL be nerfed (it's currently imbalanced AF atm), so don't be too worried about that. There will likely still be a medivac speed ability, however the speed boost will be nerfed.
I think in the Dragon game I did a decent job of economic damage - took out his third twice, and natural/fourth once. Keep in mind that, if the terran you're playing is very drop heavy, his army is significantly weaker. Therefore, you can kill his army much more cost efficiently than if the terran is NOT dropping you.
However, to not take as much damage from drops, I'm starting to prefer getting out ~5 corrupters to chase medivacs. Now the only thing that needs to happen is medivac speed not so fast
If medivac speed will be nerfed then count with Viper and Ultralisk nerf within your guides.
lol this isn't even comparable. Vipers are decent as-is but ultras probably need even stronger buffs to fulfill the role they were intended to have. Medivacs with Caduceus reactor and utilizing the speed ability on the other hand, are stupidly overpowered and uncatchable unless you really suck.
On January 02 2013 07:20 gCgCrypto wrote: hi Glon, cant wait for your HotS guides ^^ I really struggle with ZvT when my oponent goes for MMMM or MMM + Hellbats and is really dropheavy. From watching the ZvTs from your replay pack it seems you favore getting really fast Hive and Ultras but you also seem to receve a LOT of damage from Drops while doing so (The game vs Dragon on the starship map thing)
Is there a more optimal way to play vs MMM(M) / Hellbat + Bio or do you simply have to compensate for the damage you receved otherwise?
(Ive been trying around with some Muta Ling Bane into Ultra but it mostly fails because i dont get Ultras in time to defend a huge pushout, especially because hellbats and widdow mines destroy lingBane)
Medivac speed WILL be nerfed (it's currently imbalanced AF atm), so don't be too worried about that. There will likely still be a medivac speed ability, however the speed boost will be nerfed.
I think in the Dragon game I did a decent job of economic damage - took out his third twice, and natural/fourth once. Keep in mind that, if the terran you're playing is very drop heavy, his army is significantly weaker. Therefore, you can kill his army much more cost efficiently than if the terran is NOT dropping you.
However, to not take as much damage from drops, I'm starting to prefer getting out ~5 corrupters to chase medivacs. Now the only thing that needs to happen is medivac speed not so fast
If medivac speed will be nerfed then count with Viper and Ultralisk nerf within your guides.
lol this isn't even comparable. Vipers are decent as-is but ultras probably need even stronger buffs to fulfill the role they were intended to have. Medivacs with Caduceus reactor and utilizing the speed ability on the other hand, are stupidly overpowered and uncatchable unless you really suck.
On January 02 2013 07:20 gCgCrypto wrote: hi Glon, cant wait for your HotS guides ^^ I really struggle with ZvT when my oponent goes for MMMM or MMM + Hellbats and is really dropheavy. From watching the ZvTs from your replay pack it seems you favore getting really fast Hive and Ultras but you also seem to receve a LOT of damage from Drops while doing so (The game vs Dragon on the starship map thing)
Is there a more optimal way to play vs MMM(M) / Hellbat + Bio or do you simply have to compensate for the damage you receved otherwise?
(Ive been trying around with some Muta Ling Bane into Ultra but it mostly fails because i dont get Ultras in time to defend a huge pushout, especially because hellbats and widdow mines destroy lingBane)
Medivac speed WILL be nerfed (it's currently imbalanced AF atm), so don't be too worried about that. There will likely still be a medivac speed ability, however the speed boost will be nerfed.
I think in the Dragon game I did a decent job of economic damage - took out his third twice, and natural/fourth once. Keep in mind that, if the terran you're playing is very drop heavy, his army is significantly weaker. Therefore, you can kill his army much more cost efficiently than if the terran is NOT dropping you.
However, to not take as much damage from drops, I'm starting to prefer getting out ~5 corrupters to chase medivacs. Now the only thing that needs to happen is medivac speed not so fast
If medivac speed will be nerfed then count with Viper and Ultralisk nerf within your guides.
lol this isn't even comparable. Vipers are decent as-is but ultras probably need even stronger buffs to fulfill the role they were intended to have. Medivacs with Caduceus reactor and utilizing the speed ability on the other hand, are stupidly overpowered and uncatchable unless you really suck.
are you kidding me? ultras need more buff?
No I'm not and I'm not going to continue this ridiculously irrelevant tangent. Either suggest something real to the OP and help the information database grow or stop posting here. This is the place for a good zerg guide info and the development of a compendium for Zergs, not your vast-minority HotS opinions.
When the "constructive feedback" for a question is "you dont have to worry about it, Terran will be nerfed cuz its OP" and you talk about good zerg guide info? please...
On January 03 2013 04:26 Breach_hu wrote: When the "constructive feedback" for a question is "you dont have to worry about it, Terran will be nerfed cuz its OP" and you talk about good zerg guide info? please...
I was talking about that specific game versus dragon. I expect that utlralisks will recieve a minor nerf, medivacs will receive a heavy nerf, and vipers will not be nerfed at all. However, this is just my opinion.
First, thanks so much posting your guides to the matchups. I hate playing anything but standard, so when broke down all of the matchups and how I should open, this helps me a lot. It's also great to see a nice, good player who is willing to help the community out.
I have two general approach questions about the mid game and going into the late. These questions both pertain to HotS so i'm unsure if I should post them, but I am anyway.
1. In zvz, I have been opening very similar to WoL, and going for muta. My question is once the other guy has infestors out (if thats what hes going) and muta play has effectively been shut down, should i transition into swarm host? I have been having success with it, but i'm only low masters so doesnt mean anything Basically, I just would like to know the ideal follow up to muta if the other player doesnt muta as well.
2. In zvp (my most dreaded mu because of partings all in), I have heard that swarm host shuts down this ever so popular all in quite nicely, however, i am not good with them yet and havent had much success. Do you think this is a good/right response meaning I should just practice it more and get better with it? Or should I just be more gosu and hold with roach ling the entire time like WoL.
On January 03 2013 09:09 The_Goliath wrote: First, thanks so much posting your guides to the matchups. I hate playing anything but standard, so when broke down all of the matchups and how I should open, this helps me a lot. It's also great to see a nice, good player who is willing to help the community out.
I have two general approach questions about the mid game and going into the late. These questions both pertain to HotS so i'm unsure if I should post them, but I am anyway.
1. In zvz, I have been opening very similar to WoL, and going for muta. My question is once the other guy has infestors out (if thats what hes going) and muta play has effectively been shut down, should i transition into swarm host? I have been having success with it, but i'm only low masters so doesnt mean anything Basically, I just would like to know the ideal follow up to muta if the other player doesnt muta as well.
2. In zvp (my most dreaded mu because of partings all in), I have heard that swarm host shuts down this ever so popular all in quite nicely, however, i am not good with them yet and havent had much success. Do you think this is a good/right response meaning I should just practice it more and get better with it? Or should I just be more gosu and hold with roach ling the entire time like WoL.
1. I don't like going for a swarm host follow up. It's been tried - and sometimes has worked - however I prefer to follow up with either fast ultralisks (throw down 2 evos, infestation pit) or roach/infestor/hydra myself (~ to Wings). Keep in mind that, as the mutalisk player, your mutas must do damage in order for you to be in a winning position during the mid game. However, with all of the mutalisk buffs in HOTS, this is very easy to do.
2. I don't find that you can get out swarm hosts in time to stop a properly executed immortal all in - however, do not quote me on that as I have not tried it. Assuming, however, that swarm hosts don't work - The players I have talked to and myself agree that the 2 base immortal all in in HOTS is near impossible to stop. What changed?
1. The protoss player no longer needs an observer - Mothership core gives detection 2. Extra damage from mothership core pushes the initial attack over the edge - ie - the extra damage makes it so that a very close hold for zergs in Wings will now be a protoss victory 3. Mass Recall means that the zerg can no longer base trade - Protoss will come out on top in all of these situations
I have tried to get out hydralisks, however it is not enough as neither speed nor +1 range finishes before the attack hits. This will be one of the major things that blizzard has to address in HOTS (Including how Zerg is supposed to respond to late game protoss Storm + collosus + Air ball (You can't atm.))
On January 03 2013 09:39 Glon wrote: I have tried to get out hydralisks, however it is not enough as neither speed nor +1 range finishes before the attack hits.
Do you need speed or +1 range? In WOL I go for +1cara to boost the lings as well, but haven't tested it at your level.
On a side note one thing that frustrates me to no end is that hydras still require a range upgrade... in HOTS this makes even less sense, what unit needs a range and speed upgrade? Just seems dumb to me. Just give them a default range of 6 and immo/sentry becomes much easier to hold while doing little to affect lategame.
On January 03 2013 09:39 Glon wrote: I have tried to get out hydralisks, however it is not enough as neither speed nor +1 range finishes before the attack hits.
Do you need speed or +1 range? In WOL I go for +1cara to boost the lings as well, but haven't tested it at your level.
On a side note one thing that frustrates me to no end is that hydras still require a range upgrade... in HOTS this makes even less sense, what unit needs a range and speed upgrade? Just seems dumb to me. Just give them a default range of 6 and immo/sentry becomes much easier to hold while doing little to affect lategame.
hydra speed/range made sense in BW because they were available at hatchery tech and then you could upgrade them at lair tech. With them not being available so much later on in the tech tree, I can't imagine what made Blizzard think this was ok to keep this sort of terrible design. If you don't get them 'till later in the tech tree, they should just "come" with one of the upgrades already done.
That being said, at least they're usable in certain timings or certain scenarios in ZvP but largely unaffected since that's all we use them for in WoL anyways. Their usefulness, viability and versatility haven't really changed between the 2 games. I can use them for certain midgame timing attacks with roach/hydra and maybe viper tech in there by then, but other than that, they like every other unit we have become utterly useless after P and T reach a certain tech level. Like "lings vs 4+ collossi" level of uselessness.
On January 03 2013 09:39 Glon wrote: I have tried to get out hydralisks, however it is not enough as neither speed nor +1 range finishes before the attack hits.
Do you need speed or +1 range? In WOL I go for +1cara to boost the lings as well, but haven't tested it at your level.
On a side note one thing that frustrates me to no end is that hydras still require a range upgrade... in HOTS this makes even less sense, what unit needs a range and speed upgrade? Just seems dumb to me. Just give them a default range of 6 and immo/sentry becomes much easier to hold while doing little to affect lategame.
hydra speed/range made sense in BW because they were available at hatchery tech and then you could upgrade them at lair tech. With them not being available so much later on in the tech tree, I can't imagine what made Blizzard think this was ok to keep this sort of terrible design. If you don't get them 'till later in the tech tree, they should just "come" with one of the upgrades already done.
That being said, at least they're usable in certain timings or certain scenarios in ZvP but largely unaffected since that's all we use them for in WoL anyways. Their usefulness, viability and versatility haven't really changed between the 2 games. I can use them for certain midgame timing attacks with roach/hydra and maybe viper tech in there by then, but other than that, they like every other unit we have become utterly useless after P and T reach a certain tech level. Like "lings vs 4+ collossi" level of uselessness.
I think it's an interesting concept to think about - giving hydra's an automatic 6 range and only have speed to research at the lair. I think that it would make roach/hydra times very effective - no longer does the zerg player have to sink 150 gas into an upgrade.
I would also comment that I'm not so sure +1 range helps all that much for specific timings. Think about it - Versus terran, your roaches will be able to make contact w/ marine tank. Versus protoss, players have gotten so good at forcefielding then kiting back that 6 range hydras likely won't get any more shots off than 5 range hydras. Versus zerg, when you don't have infestors, 6 range hydras are not all that important (as you will be getting hits of anyways).
So, basically, my point is that for timings I think in HOTS that range will be skipped in favor of speed. The extra speed boost gives hydras a kiting mobility that it has rarely seen in any other circumstance.
Awesome guides!! Inspired me to keep going, and I finally hit silver ^-^
Question tho, when it comes to HotS (I'm super excited for these guides) how can you stop widow mines? And then a full bio army. I know I'm only silver, but I can't seem to stop this at all. I'm pretty sure I've lost 100% of my games to terran since I got promoted.
On January 04 2013 12:50 IDLon wrote: Awesome guides!! Inspired me to keep going, and I finally hit silver ^-^
Question tho, when it comes to HotS (I'm super excited for these guides) how can you stop widow mines? And then a full bio army. I know I'm only silver, but I can't seem to stop this at all. I'm pretty sure I've lost 100% of my games to terran since I got promoted.
Try to get 1 ling to trigger them, at low levels this should be very easy to do. Make sure to have a spore so you can kill the mines with lings/roaches or whatever.
I'm going to be following up with more in depth guides - They will be linked here (with a teaser), however will be posted on my new team's websites (New team announcement coming within a week :D)
I'm curious about the bane nest into speed, are there any specific reason you like this? apart from the mass ling build which I imagine it does give you an easier defense too.
I'm going to be following up with more in depth guides - They will be linked here (with a teaser), however will be posted on my new team's websites (New team announcement coming within a week :D)
First of all. I really liked your guide! I am looking forward to more detailed guides. As a High master player, I really am interested in small stuff: ovie timings; I.E. 32 vs 30, 1 vs 2 ovies at once, ect. To see if one can get to higher supply faster by 1-5 seconds. gas timing a 6min. vs 6:15. ect ect.
On January 06 2013 05:28 Mahtasooma wrote: If you'd care to elaborate as to how a 10/11 pool is supposed to do ANYTHING against everything but a hatch first?
Those 6 lings will do literally nothing against a standard pool first opening. How are you supposed to even kill a single drone with those lings?
Please share some replays of yours against pool first openings.
It's not about killing the drones. By going for a 10pool, you want to make at least 4 sets of zerglings, usually 5. If he went pool first, you can trade more effectively if he decides to engage and you delay mining time by harrassing his workers with your lings. If you choose to kill the hatch though, he has to pull drones to defend it. If he cancels, you delay his natural expansion while setting up your own. You want to expand before making queen with a 10pool. If your macro isnt poor, you will be able to get up 2 queens and a spine by the time he holds your attack and you can estimate the time he could possibly hit you with a speedling attack because you saw his gas timing.
If he goes hatch first, he has to pull more drones just to try to save the hatch. He will have to make 6-7 sets of lings and delay mining for a while.
It's not better but it can throw players off by a lot. Some players don't know how to respond to this, some think its an all in and think they are ahead.
To be honest, I always go 15 Hatch in ZvZ and there is nothing less scary then a 10Pool. You can identify the timing based on when your OL scouts the lings hatching and you can simply defend with lings of your own. I haven't had a game I can recall where I wasn't miles ahead of a 10pool.
If you go 15hatch, 16gas however, that's a different story...
I found that going 15 hatch is very risky if the other player does a 6 or 7 pool.
My normal strat is 14 pool 14 gas with a scouting drone. My scouting drone checks if the is rushing, if he is rushing, i act accordingly. If he hatch first, i try to use the scout drone to deny and delay his hatch. If not, use the scouting drone to distract his drones.
I try to get zling speed first so i can attack/harass if he ain't doing all-ins.
On January 06 2013 07:18 Kraelog wrote: To be honest, I always go 15 Hatch in ZvZ and there is nothing less scary then a 10Pool. You can identify the timing based on when your OL scouts the lings hatching and you can simply defend with lings of your own. I haven't had a game I can recall where I wasn't miles ahead of a 10pool.
Hi, thanks for your guide, it's really nice and detailed. I was redirected from Stephano's ZvP build order and found your guide here
I have questions, however, regarding the ZvZ build. Say I'm going the standard 14 pool 15 hatchery. If the opponent chooses to 6 pool rush, the lings will reach my natural by 3:00 (on DayBreak), at this time, I have just put down my hatchery at the natural, and my pool is almost finished, my supply should be about 16/18 --- should I cancel the expo hatchery or defend it with drones?
On January 16 2013 13:38 Valhalla09 wrote: Hi, thanks for your guide, it's really nice and detailed. I was redirected from Stephano's ZvP build order and found your guide here
I have questions, however, regarding the ZvZ build. Say I'm going the standard 14 pool 15 hatchery. If the opponent chooses to 6 pool rush, the lings will reach my natural by 3:00 (on DayBreak), at this time, I have just put down my hatchery at the natural, and my pool is almost finished, my supply should be about 16/18 --- should I cancel the expo hatchery or defend it with drones?
Thank you
If he is focus firing the natural hatchery cancel it at last second. Do not pull drones that would be a bad idea.
please make a ZvP guide for HOTS when the toss goes skytoss. Can't beat that skyball, especially with HTs and void rays and I can't seem to have anyway to break down the mass cannon chargelot defense
On January 16 2013 16:04 GoldforGolden wrote: please make a ZvP guide for HOTS when the toss goes skytoss. Can't beat that skyball, especially with HTs and void rays and I can't seem to have anyway to break down the mass cannon chargelot defense
I think I got lucky but that's the most success i have had vs air toss with that composition you see in that replay. Otherwise it's a loss 99% of the time I think.
Have to kill them before they get to much (this game I don't really do that >>). Take what you want from that but yeah hope it helps you a little bit.
In regards to your ZvZ guide, I always open 15H16Pool but regarding early pools my reaction is different. If it's just lings from a 6-8 Pool you do need to cancel your natural hatchery. Against a 10Pool I feel you should be able to micro your way out of it.
But more importantly, when they pull drones I go for a base trade as explained in Belial's guides. Whenever a 6-8 Pool comes with drones, mineral walk your drones at the last second to his base, plant a spine crawler and get as many lings out before the pool/hatch dies. If I get 4 lings out, its an autowin for me. Isn't that a better response than just blocking your ramp?
Hey Glon, just saw a replay of you and Psystarcraft playing together. I think that was you anyways, although you were protoss. Sorry for spamming thread. Didn't know you're prolific on TL. Cool guides!!
On January 20 2013 00:22 Kraelog wrote: In regards to your ZvZ guide, I always open 15H16Pool but regarding early pools my reaction is different. If it's just lings from a 6-8 Pool you do need to cancel your natural hatchery. Against a 10Pool I feel you should be able to micro your way out of it.
But more importantly, when they pull drones I go for a base trade as explained in Belial's guides. Whenever a 6-8 Pool comes with drones, mineral walk your drones at the last second to his base, plant a spine crawler and get as many lings out before the pool/hatch dies. If I get 4 lings out, its an autowin for me. Isn't that a better response than just blocking your ramp?
Versus perfect micro, your 15H/16P will die to a 10 pool. At lower levels, of course you can take advantage of an opponent's mistake and come out on top - even at the top players don't just 'gg' because if the 10 pooling player makes 1 mistake, you can take advantage again. Try what you want to - my method works, yours can work as well - and hope that you get lucky.
Thanks for this guide! Proud bronzer and this has allowed me to identify certain builds from the other races even if they are a few minutes later in timing from my league. Still, this was the push I needed from my super-(noob)macro into the scouting information I use now.
Soo much here, thanks! ps (Glon)your micro is steller! do you practise that in some way or does it come over time?
(since im on mobile i cant edit post) More specifically, can you recommend certain micro drills one can perform to improve microing once low-level macro is solid enough to perform certain personal builds that don't include units that bronZergs are comfortable making (other than banelings, roaches-clickmove H when marching in) actually, if there is already a thread about microing,I'd rather hear Glon's perspective on it.
On January 25 2013 16:28 TMD wrote: (since im on mobile i cant edit post) More specifically, can you recommend certain micro drills one can perform to improve microing once low-level macro is solid enough to perform certain personal builds that don't include units that bronZergs are comfortable making (other than banelings, roaches-clickmove H when marching in) actually, if there is already a thread about microing,I'd rather hear Glon's perspective on it.
Hmm so as zerg worrying about micro isn't the most important thing for you. Yes - hitting fungal growths/getting concaves are important, but individual unit micro shouldn't be your focal point. Instead, worry about hotkeys. Generally, you want to have similar units bound to the same hotkey - So for example I will have roaches and lings on 1 hotkey, banelings on another, and infestors on a third. To begin using hotkeys for your army - start with using 1, then add 2, ect.
Also I think it's best to just work on your macro APM before micro. For zerg, if you can overwhelm your opponent, macro will carry you much farther than micro. Don't worry - microing units will get there
Thanks! I've since put all hatchs on 2, 1 for main ground army as usual (with extra avail. lings as suggested) and individual vomit queens on separate keys (5 6 7, 4 saved for inf.), positioning them on left side of hatchs, from what I seen in dl'd replays from Stephano.
Practising the new hotkeys from 2 and 3 for hatchs to double tapping queens while macroing off one hatch hotkey (2) caused out-of-control drone/ov production with 3rd and 4th hatcheries added to the HKh. 135 workers in a 20 min ai practise game, with about 5 seconds spare apm to do anything besides inject/unit build and tumour spread. (2 queens devoted to extreme shitspread hotkeyed to 3, to follow vomit timings in terms of energy available.)
Is this small window of non-macro normal for use in micro/teching? Will minimap injects expand the spare apm window rather than double tapping the queen hotkeys for injects using the main screen? Can that work with practise? What's your usual non-macro time window when in tourneys/ladder sessions?
On January 29 2013 12:28 VoiceSC wrote: Not sure if anyone else has said this yet, but you should add in a guide for ZvT Mech.
Sure - that sounds like a great idea. But facing off against mech would require its own entire guide to give it justice - I am going to be starting to write HOTS guides, and this may be one of the first ones that I write.
If anyone has any suggestions/requests, feel free to post them in here or drop me a PM
The HotS guide coming any time soon? i am really lost in both ZvT and ZvP ... I feel like both are a worse copy of Wings ZvP where you have to get to a certain tech on a cetrain time or die. (Roaches vs Hellbats, Vipers vs Colossi etc)
On January 29 2013 12:28 VoiceSC wrote: Not sure if anyone else has said this yet, but you should add in a guide for ZvT Mech.
Sure - that sounds like a great idea. But facing off against mech would require its own entire guide to give it justice - I am going to be starting to write HOTS guides, and this may be one of the first ones that I write.
If anyone has any suggestions/requests, feel free to post them in here or drop me a PM
Don't forget we have less direct options in WoL than HOTS (No Viper, gimmicky unretreatable Hydralisks) so I hope it's not just a HOTS Mech guide. Roach Hydra Viper .. and go.
On January 29 2013 12:28 VoiceSC wrote: Not sure if anyone else has said this yet, but you should add in a guide for ZvT Mech.
Sure - that sounds like a great idea. But facing off against mech would require its own entire guide to give it justice - I am going to be starting to write HOTS guides, and this may be one of the first ones that I write.
If anyone has any suggestions/requests, feel free to post them in here or drop me a PM
Don't forget we have less direct options in WoL than HOTS (No Viper, gimmicky unretreatable Hydralisks) so I hope it's not just a HOTS Mech guide. Roach Hydra Viper .. and go.
All of my future guides will be for HOTS, since besides IPTL it is the only game to prepare for. Remember - it's like 1 month before release.
On February 22 2013 02:49 amacwhinnie wrote: what is the best response to having your 15 hatch blocked by building pilon?
Don't go a 15 hatch in ZvP if you see a probe. You can scout this with an overlord (that first goes to natural, then to position on opposite side of map).
If your 15 hatch gets blocked with a pylon, throw up a pool. But you will be significantly far behind your opponent. Instead, throwing up a 14 pool will be much safer.
thanks very much for answering i really appreciate the time. In a related q what is the best answer to a SCV building something to block a 15 Hatch 16 pool?
So in the scenario that a Terran is blocking your natural hatchery with an engineering bay, your BEST option is immediately pull 5-6 drones down to your natural, and keep droning up to ~17. Ideally, you would like to still place down a hatchery first, but on 17 supply instead of 15 (followed up with pool/gas).
However, on some maps this simply won't work. The distance between the main base and natural expansion of the map coupled with how overlord scouting paths are layed out (do you see the SCV coming before it gets to your natural?) create some scenarios where it is better to just throw down a spawning pool. After this, you may choose to either put down gas (for early agression) or triple expand (Think ~ZvP) once you clear out the engineering bay.
Note: It's ALMOST always a bad idea to take your third before your natural if your natural gets blocked - if your opponent goes for a gas build (either before or after CC), helions will tear apart the bases and it will be nearly impossible for you to properly move units from base to base.
glon i hope you do very very very good in the king of the hill tournament good crush them :D love your guide very much always checking them to see updates fighting
again Glon thanks for answering. I didn't have overlord spot it as i was trying to get first overlord around map so it wouldnt get snipped going through shortest path. Should i have done or is it better to SCV scout (and in which case when would you recommend scouting). also why is it not standard for T to do this? surely if you pull 5-6 drones thats more mining time lost than T would loose and your hatch is delayed (i know it costs them but they do get it all back) This isn't meant to be a balance whine I would like to know what it costs them.
Again really appreciate you taking the time to answer.
On February 23 2013 01:38 amacwhinnie wrote: again Glon thanks for answering. I didn't have overlord spot it as i was trying to get first overlord around map so it wouldnt get snipped going through shortest path. Should i have done or is it better to SCV scout (and in which case when would you recommend scouting). also why is it not standard for T to do this? surely if you pull 5-6 drones thats more mining time lost than T would loose and your hatch is delayed (i know it costs them but they do get it all back) This isn't meant to be a balance whine I would like to know what it costs them.
Again really appreciate you taking the time to answer.
Np dude ^^
So remember that your opponent is delaying to build an engineering bay. Yes, it will put you slightly behind (almost always). However, they also run the risk of you putting down, say, a 14 hatchery and their SCV being negated.
In the end, just deal with it adequately, and you will never be in an unwinnable place.
thanks for the information. but in my ZvT i don't like going brood lords. they are to slow in my opinion what do you think? i know broods are good at deeling with tanks but the ultra's can to. what do you think?
On February 24 2013 04:20 Terorking1 wrote: thanks for the information. but in my ZvT i don't like going brood lords. they are to slow in my opinion what do you think? i know broods are good at deeling with tanks but the ultra's can to. what do you think?
Terran can get a unit composition that kinda crushes ultras. At some point you have to get broodlords or you will just die because terran will have the Anti ultralisk army.