Hi guys I figured it was time for me to begin my videos where I explain things as a zerg. I have finished my first one which is a simple holding the immortal all in with swarmhosts.
The game plan for me right now is to do 4-5 videos show casing swarmhosts and I plan on one of those games to show case how to NOT use swarmhosts (hence a game I lose). After that I am not sure which match up I will do probably zvt mech then potentially a zvz or zvt bio. This really depends on feedback from the people who watch these.
The next video will be out in a couple days and I will try to do a couple per week at least for awhile
Video 6 - Zerg verse Terran - roach/ling/bane/swarmhost into ultralisk
Description: Going the roach/ling/bane/swarmhost composition, why I go roach/ling/bane and then swarmhosts and how to transition, when to transition to what and why.
Video 5 - Zerg verse Terran - Using swarmhosts verse bio + widow mine + Show Spoiler +
Description: A game where terran opens reapers and goes into bio + widow mine. I go into swarmhosts and have to take on this very good unit composition.
Video 4 - Zerg Verse Terran - Muta into swarmhost and transitioning into late game + Show Spoiler +
Description: This describes what I do and why I do it as usual with mutalisks, Why I go them how to use them and then adding in swarmhosts and then transitioning into the late game.
Video 3 - Blade verse Kyo - Hydra/swarmhost composition + transition + beating a max voidray/colossi army + Show Spoiler +
Description: This shows a stargate opening by protoss and how I go hydras first then swarmhost and then end up containing him to 3 base, he gets a 200/200 voidray/colossi army that I am able to kill. I go through my thought process and all that usual stuff.
Video 2 - Blade verse Korean terran - Fighting mech with swarmhosts + transition + Show Spoiler +
Video 1 Blade verse CroSio - holding the immortal all in with swarmhosts + Show Spoiler +
Description: This game starts off as a normal zvp where the protoss goes for an immortal all in, but I hold with ease thanks to swarmhosts and then he tries to transition into a macro game. This will explain transitioning and how to use swarmhosts as well.
How is it a immortal all in if you can get swarm host? Immortal all ins excuted correctly hit before lair unless you doing some crazy 2 base zerg lair all in.
Don't see how you can get them in time to make a difference. Immortal all ins been hiting around 8 30/9 mins in gm hots they hit sooner now with msc.
On February 06 2013 12:09 LingBlingBling wrote: How is it a immortal all in if you can get swarm host? Immortal all ins excuted correctly hit before lair unless you doing some crazy 2 base zerg lair all in.
Don't see how you can get them in time to make a difference. Immortal all ins been hiting around 8 30/9 mins in gm hots they hit sooner now with msc.
Umm, the MSC actually delays or doesn't affect it since it is an extra 100/100 so i don't see how that speeds it up. Second is I don't know who your playing but if they are hitting at 8:30 then your probably playing a mineral hacker. The standard timing of LEAVING the base is 9:30 (exactly like in the game blade shows). A few exceptions are when Parting leaves at 9:00 or so, but I doubt you played Parting. So either your not GM in HotS and making things up/watching streams and getting false information (which is my guess) or you just have terrible understanding of the most standard builds. I do agree it maybe hit a few seconds late, maybe if he got up a secret pylon or got one out by clearing lings with a zealot it would help, but nothing that would make this defence by blade not possible. Please learn more before posting false information next time. Good video blade
On February 06 2013 12:09 LingBlingBling wrote: How is it a immortal all in if you can get swarm host? Immortal all ins excuted correctly hit before lair unless you doing some crazy 2 base zerg lair all in.
Don't see how you can get them in time to make a difference. Immortal all ins been hiting around 8 30/9 mins in gm hots they hit sooner now with msc.
This is GM hots, not sure how MSC makes it hit faster though lol. Watch it . This was verse a top 50 gm player. Haven't lost to an immortal all in once and yes this guy moves out at 9:10 or something.
On February 06 2013 12:09 LingBlingBling wrote: How is it a immortal all in if you can get swarm host? Immortal all ins excuted correctly hit before lair unless you doing some crazy 2 base zerg lair all in.
Don't see how you can get them in time to make a difference. Immortal all ins been hiting around 8 30/9 mins in gm hots they hit sooner now with msc.
Umm, the MSC actually delays or doesn't affect it since it is an extra 100/100 so i don't see how that speeds it up. Second is I don't know who your playing but if they are hitting at 8:30 then your probably playing a mineral hacker. The standard timing of LEAVING the base is 9:30 (exactly like in the game blade shows). A few exceptions are when Parting leaves at 9:00 or so, but I doubt you played Parting. So either your not GM in HotS and making things up/watching streams and getting false information (which is my guess) or you just have terrible understanding of the most standard builds. I do agree it maybe hit a few seconds late, maybe if he got up a secret pylon or got one out by clearing lings with a zealot it would help, but nothing that would make this defence by blade not possible. Please learn more before posting false information next time. Good video blade
Please T_T....the standard timing on this build is walling off at around 8:50 and moving across the map as soon as possible thereafter. If you're not cross map by 9:30 your push is bad and should be held with incredible ease as you've idled for too long, especially if a zerg does a ton of creep spread you have a potential to not be able to put down a proxy pylon.
That's not to say this isn't a good video or doesn't do a good job explaining the defense in HotS though. It's good to make videos like this for people to learn the general ideas of what you should be doing, especially for a build as strong as the Immortal push. Likewise, the commentary is what's really helpful to people learning this stuff. Otherwise they miss the small details. o:
(like the others have said, the push will come a little slower with msc since you're only supposed to be making sentries; but it is a lot safer because you can always decide to recall and expo/force units if you see it will not work)
As Kyo already pointed out, this push was bad, or i should rather say not properly, executed from protoss. Hoping that toss will move out that late is just a gamble. A Immortal sentry allin is supposed to hit your third (not moving out) at 9.30. Everything else is fail and doesnt really show how to fight off the dangerous immortal allin. I dont see how your build (maybe with saccing the third) would had been able to hold that. However i know that youre a pretty good player, so dont take the critique wrong :-P
If people dont believe that 9.30 is the time a immo sentry allin should hit (not moveout), just watch one of partings games.
On February 07 2013 05:52 doggy wrote: As Kyo already pointed out, this push was bad, or i should rather say not properly, executed from protoss. Hoping that toss will move out that late is just a gamble. A Immortal sentry allin is supposed to hit your third (not moving out) at 9.30. Everything else is fail and doesnt really show how to fight off the dangerous immortal allin. I dont see how your build (maybe with saccing the third) would had been able to hold that. However i know that youre a pretty good player, so dont take the critique wrong :-P
If people dont believe that 9.30 is the time a immo sentry allin should hit (not moveout), just watch one of partings games.
There is parting and there are other protosses. Partings immortal all ins are stronger then any other so 99% of the players don't move out till 9:30. Also I would have to watch parting immortal all in to see when he hits as I NEVER see the immortal all in at the third base at 9:30 in GSL or proleague and I watch those quiet a bit. The only way I can see them getting to the third by 9:30 is if the zerg player doesn't try to delay the push at all with lings or anything.
Which also just goes to my point how many partings do you or anyone else on this forum play? Probably none so this really doesn't change anything. I would love to test this verse Partings immortal all in, but unfortunately that isn't practical
I want to add people are saying his push was bad and yet this is what 99% of protoss players move out at. Not like this guide was implemented for top 5% of Korean Pro's or something who already know how to deal with it anyway in WoL and I imagine will still beat it in hots with or without swarmhosts.
Just to clarify my post since people are apparently not understanding... All I was saying is that the player did the build slower than usual.
I do not think Blade would have died even if the build came faster. He'd just build delay units if needed, but as he showed in the game, he had vision of when the attack was coming/how much time he had.
tl;dr: This build blade shows works well and he did a good job of explaining it. There may need to be an extra step of unit production if the attack comes earlier, but defending should not be a problem vs any immortal build.
On February 07 2013 05:52 doggy wrote: As Kyo already pointed out, this push was bad, or i should rather say not properly, executed from protoss. Hoping that toss will move out that late is just a gamble. A Immortal sentry allin is supposed to hit your third (not moving out) at 9.30. Everything else is fail and doesnt really show how to fight off the dangerous immortal allin. I dont see how your build (maybe with saccing the third) would had been able to hold that. However i know that youre a pretty good player, so dont take the critique wrong :-P
If people dont believe that 9.30 is the time a immo sentry allin should hit (not moveout), just watch one of partings games.
There is parting and there are other protosses. Partings immortal all ins are stronger then any other so 99% of the players don't move out till 9:30. Also I would have to watch parting immortal all in to see when he hits as I NEVER see the immortal all in at the third base at 9:30 in GSL or proleague and I watch those quiet a bit. The only way I can see them getting to the third by 9:30 is if the zerg player doesn't try to delay the push at all with lings or anything.
Which also just goes to my point how many partings do you or anyone else on this forum play? Probably none so this really doesn't change anything. I would love to test this verse Partings immortal all in, but unfortunately that isn't practical
I want to add people are saying his push was bad and yet this is what 99% of protoss players move out at. Not like this guide was implemented for top 5% of Korean Pro's or something who already know how to deal with it anyway in WoL and I imagine will still beat it in hots with or without swarmhosts.
You dont need to be a korean pro to execute the first 10 minutes (without any pressure, just following a simple build order and using chronoboost accordingly) to be able to move out at this time. It maybe wasnt bad executed. To use the right words, it is a delayed immortal (semi-)allin with the MS core envolved. I guess people are practising it like that because they want to test which one is better. Still i do believe that almost every standard GM protoss can use the same BO and timing (just timing, neither micro nor control) than parting does.
Still, for anything below GM this build should work very well. But it isnt the "real" WoL allin version of it. If you face that one, you have either gone 2 base tech or you do have nothing but lings, roaches and maybe queens and spines with it. But no lair tech units
On February 07 2013 05:52 doggy wrote: As Kyo already pointed out, this push was bad, or i should rather say not properly, executed from protoss. Hoping that toss will move out that late is just a gamble. A Immortal sentry allin is supposed to hit your third (not moving out) at 9.30. Everything else is fail and doesnt really show how to fight off the dangerous immortal allin. I dont see how your build (maybe with saccing the third) would had been able to hold that. However i know that youre a pretty good player, so dont take the critique wrong :-P
If people dont believe that 9.30 is the time a immo sentry allin should hit (not moveout), just watch one of partings games.
There is parting and there are other protosses. Partings immortal all ins are stronger then any other so 99% of the players don't move out till 9:30. Also I would have to watch parting immortal all in to see when he hits as I NEVER see the immortal all in at the third base at 9:30 in GSL or proleague and I watch those quiet a bit. The only way I can see them getting to the third by 9:30 is if the zerg player doesn't try to delay the push at all with lings or anything.
Which also just goes to my point how many partings do you or anyone else on this forum play? Probably none so this really doesn't change anything. I would love to test this verse Partings immortal all in, but unfortunately that isn't practical
I want to add people are saying his push was bad and yet this is what 99% of protoss players move out at. Not like this guide was implemented for top 5% of Korean Pro's or something who already know how to deal with it anyway in WoL and I imagine will still beat it in hots with or without swarmhosts.
You dont need to be a korean pro to execute the first 10 minutes (without any pressure, just following a simple build order and using chronoboost accordingly) to be able to move out at this time. It maybe wasnt bad executed. To use the right words, it is a delayed immortal (semi-)allin with the MS core envolved. I guess people are practising it like that because they want to test which one is better. Still i do believe that almost every standard GM protoss can use the same BO and timing (just timing, neither micro nor control) than parting does.
Still, for anything below GM this build should work very well. But it isnt the "real" WoL allin version of it. If you face that one, you have either gone 2 base tech or you do have nothing but lings, roaches and maybe queens and spines with it. But no lair tech units
I am telling you, you can. If you start lair at 7:20 you will get them out in time. Lings to delay the push as well which isn't hard to do and will give you the time to get them out. I have faced about 9 immortals past couple weeks and haven't lost once as of yet and this is at the top GM on hots.
On February 07 2013 05:52 doggy wrote: As Kyo already pointed out, this push was bad, or i should rather say not properly, executed from protoss. Hoping that toss will move out that late is just a gamble. A Immortal sentry allin is supposed to hit your third (not moving out) at 9.30. Everything else is fail and doesnt really show how to fight off the dangerous immortal allin. I dont see how your build (maybe with saccing the third) would had been able to hold that. However i know that youre a pretty good player, so dont take the critique wrong :-P
If people dont believe that 9.30 is the time a immo sentry allin should hit (not moveout), just watch one of partings games.
There is parting and there are other protosses. Partings immortal all ins are stronger then any other so 99% of the players don't move out till 9:30. Also I would have to watch parting immortal all in to see when he hits as I NEVER see the immortal all in at the third base at 9:30 in GSL or proleague and I watch those quiet a bit. The only way I can see them getting to the third by 9:30 is if the zerg player doesn't try to delay the push at all with lings or anything.
Which also just goes to my point how many partings do you or anyone else on this forum play? Probably none so this really doesn't change anything. I would love to test this verse Partings immortal all in, but unfortunately that isn't practical
I want to add people are saying his push was bad and yet this is what 99% of protoss players move out at. Not like this guide was implemented for top 5% of Korean Pro's or something who already know how to deal with it anyway in WoL and I imagine will still beat it in hots with or without swarmhosts.
You dont need to be a korean pro to execute the first 10 minutes (without any pressure, just following a simple build order and using chronoboost accordingly) to be able to move out at this time. It maybe wasnt bad executed. To use the right words, it is a delayed immortal (semi-)allin with the MS core envolved. I guess people are practising it like that because they want to test which one is better. Still i do believe that almost every standard GM protoss can use the same BO and timing (just timing, neither micro nor control) than parting does.
Still, for anything below GM this build should work very well. But it isnt the "real" WoL allin version of it. If you face that one, you have either gone 2 base tech or you do have nothing but lings, roaches and maybe queens and spines with it. But no lair tech units
I am telling you, you can. If you start lair at 7:20 you will get them out in time. Lings to delay the push as well which isn't hard to do and will give you the time to get them out. I have faced about 9 immortals past couple weeks and haven't lost once as of yet and this is at the top GM on hots.
Edited the post above and added a link. Please dont tell me you need to have 300 APM to execute the simplest macro in the first 9 minutes of the game.
Like i pointed out, people want to try and see which BO works better. Tests new viability of hots units envolved in old WoL allins. I dont say your tutorial is bad, it is very well explained and fun to watch. Still it is just a semi-allinnish delayed version of it.
On February 07 2013 05:52 doggy wrote: As Kyo already pointed out, this push was bad, or i should rather say not properly, executed from protoss. Hoping that toss will move out that late is just a gamble. A Immortal sentry allin is supposed to hit your third (not moving out) at 9.30. Everything else is fail and doesnt really show how to fight off the dangerous immortal allin. I dont see how your build (maybe with saccing the third) would had been able to hold that. However i know that youre a pretty good player, so dont take the critique wrong :-P
If people dont believe that 9.30 is the time a immo sentry allin should hit (not moveout), just watch one of partings games.
There is parting and there are other protosses. Partings immortal all ins are stronger then any other so 99% of the players don't move out till 9:30. Also I would have to watch parting immortal all in to see when he hits as I NEVER see the immortal all in at the third base at 9:30 in GSL or proleague and I watch those quiet a bit. The only way I can see them getting to the third by 9:30 is if the zerg player doesn't try to delay the push at all with lings or anything.
Which also just goes to my point how many partings do you or anyone else on this forum play? Probably none so this really doesn't change anything. I would love to test this verse Partings immortal all in, but unfortunately that isn't practical
I want to add people are saying his push was bad and yet this is what 99% of protoss players move out at. Not like this guide was implemented for top 5% of Korean Pro's or something who already know how to deal with it anyway in WoL and I imagine will still beat it in hots with or without swarmhosts.
You dont need to be a korean pro to execute the first 10 minutes (without any pressure, just following a simple build order and using chronoboost accordingly) to be able to move out at this time. It maybe wasnt bad executed. To use the right words, it is a delayed immortal (semi-)allin with the MS core envolved. I guess people are practising it like that because they want to test which one is better. Still i do believe that almost every standard GM protoss can use the same BO and timing (just timing, neither micro nor control) than parting does.
Still, for anything below GM this build should work very well. But it isnt the "real" WoL allin version of it. If you face that one, you have either gone 2 base tech or you do have nothing but lings, roaches and maybe queens and spines with it. But no lair tech units
I am telling you, you can. If you start lair at 7:20 you will get them out in time. Lings to delay the push as well which isn't hard to do and will give you the time to get them out. I have faced about 9 immortals past couple weeks and haven't lost once as of yet and this is at the top GM on hots.
Edited the post above and added a link. Please dont tell me you need to have 300 APM to execute the simplest macro in the first 9 minutes of the game.
Like i pointed out, people want to try and see which BO works better. Tests new viability of hots units envolved in old WoL allins. I dont say your tutorial is bad, it is very well explained and fun to watch. Still it is just a semi-allinnish delayed version of it.
So that proves my point. Parting was halfway across the map at 9:30. This was on a small map like ohana as well so this only proves my point that you can get swarmhosts out in time as that was my point. Unfortunately the day9 video stopped and couldn't see when he hit the third exactly I just saw half way across the map at 9:30 on ohana.
All I am saying is you can get swarmhosts out in time and you can hold the immortal all in. Especially verse a non parting.
So if the zerg doesn't make any attempt to delay the push he hits the third at 9:50 (watched part of part 2), if you send lings and delay the push you can easily push that to 10 minutes or longer. He didn't get to the third hatchery until 10:10.
On February 07 2013 05:52 doggy wrote: As Kyo already pointed out, this push was bad, or i should rather say not properly, executed from protoss. Hoping that toss will move out that late is just a gamble. A Immortal sentry allin is supposed to hit your third (not moving out) at 9.30. Everything else is fail and doesnt really show how to fight off the dangerous immortal allin. I dont see how your build (maybe with saccing the third) would had been able to hold that. However i know that youre a pretty good player, so dont take the critique wrong :-P
If people dont believe that 9.30 is the time a immo sentry allin should hit (not moveout), just watch one of partings games.
There is parting and there are other protosses. Partings immortal all ins are stronger then any other so 99% of the players don't move out till 9:30. Also I would have to watch parting immortal all in to see when he hits as I NEVER see the immortal all in at the third base at 9:30 in GSL or proleague and I watch those quiet a bit. The only way I can see them getting to the third by 9:30 is if the zerg player doesn't try to delay the push at all with lings or anything.
Which also just goes to my point how many partings do you or anyone else on this forum play? Probably none so this really doesn't change anything. I would love to test this verse Partings immortal all in, but unfortunately that isn't practical
I want to add people are saying his push was bad and yet this is what 99% of protoss players move out at. Not like this guide was implemented for top 5% of Korean Pro's or something who already know how to deal with it anyway in WoL and I imagine will still beat it in hots with or without swarmhosts.
You dont need to be a korean pro to execute the first 10 minutes (without any pressure, just following a simple build order and using chronoboost accordingly) to be able to move out at this time. It maybe wasnt bad executed. To use the right words, it is a delayed immortal (semi-)allin with the MS core envolved. I guess people are practising it like that because they want to test which one is better. Still i do believe that almost every standard GM protoss can use the same BO and timing (just timing, neither micro nor control) than parting does.
Still, for anything below GM this build should work very well. But it isnt the "real" WoL allin version of it. If you face that one, you have either gone 2 base tech or you do have nothing but lings, roaches and maybe queens and spines with it. But no lair tech units
I am telling you, you can. If you start lair at 7:20 you will get them out in time. Lings to delay the push as well which isn't hard to do and will give you the time to get them out. I have faced about 9 immortals past couple weeks and haven't lost once as of yet and this is at the top GM on hots.
Edited the post above and added a link. Please dont tell me you need to have 300 APM to execute the simplest macro in the first 9 minutes of the game.
Like i pointed out, people want to try and see which BO works better. Tests new viability of hots units envolved in old WoL allins. I dont say your tutorial is bad, it is very well explained and fun to watch. Still it is just a semi-allinnish delayed version of it.
So that proves my point. Parting was halfway across the map at 9:30. This was on a small map like ohana as well.
Okay, maybe 9.30 hitting wasnt exactly correct, still you cant deny that the protoss you've played moved out 40 seconds later because he was doing a other version of this build. Edit the second: To be really correct, he was halfway across at 9.22 ^^ I didnt say it doesnt work, i rather wanted to say that i would really like to see how this build works out (like you mentioned, it is possible to buy time in some scenarios) against the standard not delayed version of this push.
Edit to your edit.. Im still 100% convinced that if you give the same BO parting used to any GM protoss there is, he can move out at the same time. There is nothing more to do than using the same BO, microing probes (close patches) and using chrono boost accordlingy. Being a "pro" or "not-pro" doesnt change anything about that :-P
I also can reach 44 supply at 5.50 ingame minutes, or max out at the same second as stephano does doing the famous roach allin.Does that make me a professional or does this say that im near that level? Nope! :-P
On February 07 2013 12:26 dyirsc2 wrote: really enjoyed that video. You dealt with the subject in a very logical manner, almost like a scientist. Some people will complain but i enjoyed.
Are the locusts able to take down that army? It did look pretty strong
Yes if the toss engages he will have to deal with lings + the 2 spines I made + the locusts. If he engaged he'd lose his army so his decision to retreat was the best one even though it put him really far behind.
Thanks for the video! If you come across a game that you beat a Toss that plays ground + voids or just general skytoss, I would really appreciate a tutorial!
On February 07 2013 17:09 Apevia wrote: Thanks for the video! If you come across a game that you beat a Toss that plays ground + voids or just general skytoss, I would really appreciate a tutorial!
Only time I ever beat sky toss is when I am so far ahead it doesn't matter what they do. Otherwise I am in same boat as you TT.
On February 07 2013 17:09 Apevia wrote: Thanks for the video! If you come across a game that you beat a Toss that plays ground + voids or just general skytoss, I would really appreciate a tutorial!
Only time I ever beat sky toss is when I am so far ahead it doesn't matter what they do. Otherwise I am in same boat as you TT.
I feel the same, voidrays are really a pain in the ass. I still cannot believe that blizzard posted two days ago that they won't nerf voidrays and that they feel like the unit isnt too powerful.
On February 07 2013 17:09 Apevia wrote: Thanks for the video! If you come across a game that you beat a Toss that plays ground + voids or just general skytoss, I would really appreciate a tutorial!
Only time I ever beat sky toss is when I am so far ahead it doesn't matter what they do. Otherwise I am in same boat as you TT.
I feel the same, voidrays are really a pain in the ass. I still cannot believe that blizzard posted two days ago that they won't nerf voidrays and that they feel like the unit isnt too powerful.
Yup I am with you there. Really kinda mad about it lol and their reasoning blows my mind T_T
On February 07 2013 17:09 Apevia wrote: Thanks for the video! If you come across a game that you beat a Toss that plays ground + voids or just general skytoss, I would really appreciate a tutorial!
Only time I ever beat sky toss is when I am so far ahead it doesn't matter what they do. Otherwise I am in same boat as you TT.
I feel the same, voidrays are really a pain in the ass. I still cannot believe that blizzard posted two days ago that they won't nerf voidrays and that they feel like the unit isnt too powerful.
Yup I am with you there. Really kinda mad about it lol and their reasoning blows my mind T_T
Problem is corruptors are not an option against void rays, so you try hydras, but they suck against carriers and they still have storms with their air army...
On February 07 2013 17:09 Apevia wrote: Thanks for the video! If you come across a game that you beat a Toss that plays ground + voids or just general skytoss, I would really appreciate a tutorial!
Only time I ever beat sky toss is when I am so far ahead it doesn't matter what they do. Otherwise I am in same boat as you TT.
I feel the same, voidrays are really a pain in the ass. I still cannot believe that blizzard posted two days ago that they won't nerf voidrays and that they feel like the unit isnt too powerful.
Yup I am with you there. Really kinda mad about it lol and their reasoning blows my mind T_T
Problem is corruptors are not an option against void rays, so you try hydras, but they suck against carriers and they still have storms with their air army...
Well I think you will agree that Carrier + Storm + Void Ray should defeat Hydras. Kind of an unfair comparison you are making there.
On February 07 2013 17:09 Apevia wrote: Thanks for the video! If you come across a game that you beat a Toss that plays ground + voids or just general skytoss, I would really appreciate a tutorial!
Only time I ever beat sky toss is when I am so far ahead it doesn't matter what they do. Otherwise I am in same boat as you TT.
I feel the same, voidrays are really a pain in the ass. I still cannot believe that blizzard posted two days ago that they won't nerf voidrays and that they feel like the unit isnt too powerful.
Yup I am with you there. Really kinda mad about it lol and their reasoning blows my mind T_T
Problem is corruptors are not an option against void rays, so you try hydras, but they suck against carriers and they still have storms with their air army...
Well I think you will agree that Carrier + Storm + Void Ray should defeat Hydras. Kind of an unfair comparison you are making there.
Well it's more we can't counter it with anything else. Hydra/corruptor are the only good AA especially after infestor nerfs :D. So can't think of it that way.
Anyway don't want to derail this thread with anymore sky toss, if there is ever a counter to sky toss without a patch my mind will be blown and I will make a video, until then it will just be different. Next few videos will feature zvp then a few zvt and probably 1 or 2 zvz's, but mainly zvp/zvt since zvz is mainly muta focused.
On February 07 2013 17:09 Apevia wrote: Thanks for the video! If you come across a game that you beat a Toss that plays ground + voids or just general skytoss, I would really appreciate a tutorial!
Only time I ever beat sky toss is when I am so far ahead it doesn't matter what they do. Otherwise I am in same boat as you TT.
I feel the same, voidrays are really a pain in the ass. I still cannot believe that blizzard posted two days ago that they won't nerf voidrays and that they feel like the unit isnt too powerful.
Yup I am with you there. Really kinda mad about it lol and their reasoning blows my mind T_T
Problem is corruptors are not an option against void rays, so you try hydras, but they suck against carriers and they still have storms with their air army...
Well I think you will agree that Carrier + Storm + Void Ray should defeat Hydras. Kind of an unfair comparison you are making there.
I completely agree 100%. Hydras should not win, the problem is we have no stronger AA option. So maybe a stronger anti air option for zerg or buff hydras so that at least the second or third remax beats that army, right now it's just a meat grinder. But knowing Blizz they will nerf Protoss air instead .
Well I am looking forward to Blade's video on how to be agressive against the P's 3rd when they go air, so they can't build up that army. My Hydra agression always seem to hit to late.
Nice educational video, and yes, not ALL of us are top GMs here on TeamLiquid forums! So, a big thanks for sharing with us, mortal, trying to learn the new units, Bronze Hots Zergs ;-) Edit: whats up with time ? February 07 2013 23:52 o.O All of a sudden i live in KOrea time :p
Great video. Not sure why this BO is being scrutinized just because the Protoss player isn't Code S. It's GM ffs and has been explained that the push can be delayed well into the 10 minute mark with ling harassment.
awesome vid, opened a little bit my eyes after my first 2 days of getting crushed in the beta. You explain everything as it was so simple, I will try it and find out if it really is.
On February 07 2013 17:09 Apevia wrote: Thanks for the video! If you come across a game that you beat a Toss that plays ground + voids or just general skytoss, I would really appreciate a tutorial!
Only time I ever beat sky toss is when I am so far ahead it doesn't matter what they do. Otherwise I am in same boat as you TT.
I feel the same, voidrays are really a pain in the ass. I still cannot believe that blizzard posted two days ago that they won't nerf voidrays and that they feel like the unit isnt too powerful.
Yup I am with you there. Really kinda mad about it lol and their reasoning blows my mind T_T
Problem is corruptors are not an option against void rays, so you try hydras, but they suck against carriers and they still have storms with their air army...
Well I think you will agree that Carrier + Storm + Void Ray should defeat Hydras. Kind of an unfair comparison you are making there.
I completely agree 100%. Hydras should not win, the problem is we have no stronger AA option. So maybe a stronger anti air option for zerg or buff hydras so that at least the second or third remax beats that army, right now it's just a meat grinder. But knowing Blizz they will nerf Protoss air instead .
Well I am looking forward to Blade's video on how to be agressive against the P's 3rd when they go air, so they can't build up that army. My Hydra agression always seem to hit to late.
The one where they go air may be a week. I want to test something that might be better then what I am doing now .
Thanks for the feedback guys if you have any tips on what you want to here more about please let me know!
HELL YES. I was just wondering, "hmmmm now that I've got my beta key, it sure would be nice to have some VODs of high level play to emulate" and then I stumble on this. Can't wait for the next one, keep it up blade!
Great videos. Btw Blade, I suggest you to lower the in-game sound a bit, when the fight happens, it is a bit harder to hear you from the sound of attacks and explosions. Keep them up!
I would like to see some your casts of Swarm Hosts vs. Bio. I watched all of the replays, but still it is better when you are explaining things, and Swarm Hosts vs. Bio usually is a lot action-packed!
Loving these tutorials! I know u ran into it in the ZvT but I'd like to see more defending vs Hellbat drops / mine shenanigans Also can't wait for ZvP vs skytoss
On February 09 2013 11:39 koOma wrote: Loving these tutorials! I know u ran into it in the ZvT but I'd like to see more defending vs Hellbat drops / mine shenanigans Also can't wait for ZvP vs skytoss
Heh I will try!
Next video is up. Now this is my third this week and from now on it should be going back to once per week is my goal. This one is a very good one I think a lot of zergs will enjoy especially verse max voidray/colossi compositions.
Description: This shows a stargate opening by protoss and how I go hydras first then swarmhost and then end up containing him to 3 base, he gets a 200/200 voidray/colossi army that I am able to kill. I go through my thought process and all that usual stuff.
On February 09 2013 04:50 blade55555 wrote: Alright guys thanks for the positive feedback! Here is another video but this will be a zerg vs terran one on how to beat Mech.
Description: The best way to fight mech and using swarmhosts as well.
Next video will feature zvp again with a better swarmhost build and beating a maxed voidray/colossi with some templar army! Stay tuned
Thanks for those videos
Now in this game in 1st big fight he sieged under your BC and 11 of his tanks were not fighting and still you lost the fight with so many of his units remaining. So i have a feeling, had he split his tanks, he would have even more units remaining hence you probably could have lost the game right there?
Great work! We need more constructive videos like these to counter the prevailing defeatist attitude of "If I can't beat it, it's f**king bullshit." *posts on TL to nerf X*
Could you do one where you fend off medivac drop of hellbats?
On February 10 2013 18:10 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: Hi Blade,
Great work! We need more constructive videos like these to counter the prevailing defeatist attitude of "If I can't beat it, it's f**king bullshit." *posts on TL to nerf X*
Could you do one where you fend off medivac drop of hellbats?
Hehe I just want to state I do say that stuff to a bit haha , I do think voids are a little to strong still, but I also think this might be a way to counter the colossi/templar/void army. I need to play more verse it with this composition to say for sure ^^.
I will try to do one with a medivac drop with hellbats, the mech video show cases it and I talk a little bit about how to defend against them the best I can think of anyway.
I was going to ask about adding infestors against that many void rays, but then you mentioned it in the video. seems like a couple fungals would be great against stacked up voids. seems like the little bit of damage you were able to cause with the swarm hosts was instrumental in keeping the toss army manageable.
On February 12 2013 03:00 Lobotomist wrote: I was going to ask about adding infestors against that many void rays, but then you mentioned it in the video. seems like a couple fungals would be great against stacked up voids. seems like the little bit of damage you were able to cause with the swarm hosts was instrumental in keeping the toss army manageable.
Yes I feel sometime in the future swarmhosts will be standard zvp just because I dont' think roach/hydra is good. Everyone has kinda figured out how to counter vipers (templar for toss, vikings/ravens for terran) so the viper isn't "op" anymore so roach/hydra into fast viper isn't good anymore like it used to be.
Now that tosses are starting to remember how to beat roach/hydra/corruptor (since zergs are kinda doing that now then adding in vipers) or roach/hydra/viper I am positive that will die just like it did in wol and swarmhosts will rise to take the place of roach/hydra.
Quick question about swarmhost synergy in zvp. I also like to push toss on 3 bases with SH and most times hydra/curropter support with a few (~2) infestors to hold them in place if needbe. i just was wondering if vipers instead of curropter build up a better synergy (i do think so tbh even tho i havent tried it yet). Toss gets pushed before he can afford a good amount of splash and/or air with templars for feedback, and vipers should theoretically allow you to snipe out either colossi or if you face skytoss single airunits before they reach their scary critical mass. However i dont feel like vipers are the way to go going for roach hydra since they get feedbacked too easily and if your 2-2 roach hydra timing fails, protoss will have the time to add in templars before the next battle occures. i dont think that situation would appear with a SH siege tho. That being said, vipers are also a lot cheaper and versatile than a huge flock of curropters, which allows you to add more hydra/SH/infestors
On February 13 2013 19:06 doggy wrote: Quick question about swarmhost synergy in zvp. I also like to push toss on 3 bases with SH and most times hydra/curropter support with a few (~2) infestors to hold them in place if needbe. i just was wondering if vipers instead of curropter build up a better synergy (i do think so tbh even tho i havent tried it yet). Toss gets pushed before he can afford a good amount of splash and/or air with templars for feedback, and vipers should theoretically allow you to snipe out either colossi or if you face skytoss single airunits before they reach their scary critical mass. However i dont feel like vipers are the way to go going for roach hydra since they get feedbacked too easily and if your 2-2 roach hydra timing fails, protoss will have the time to add in templars before the next battle occures. i dont think that situation would appear with a SH siege tho. That being said, vipers are also a lot cheaper and versatile than a huge flock of curropters, which allows you to add more hydra/SH/infestors
btw, really nice zvp vid :-P
I think having vipers in addition to corruptors/hydra/swarmhost is going to be powerful. I have been wanting to do it but keep forgetting about it.
Also guys next video is up!
Zerg Verse Terran - Muta into swarmhost and transitioning into late game
Description: This describes what I do and why I do it as usual with mutalisks, Why I go them how to use them and then adding in swarmhosts and then transitioning into the late game.
Great game there Blade! Yeah, that were my thoughts at first, "why not go for Mutas and then switch to Swarm Hosts?", but I guess they come a lot later than with the Infestor build since you are spending a lot more gas on Mutas and upgrades than on ~6 Infestors. Anyway, very solid game, you would have a bit more of a problems if Terran went with Bio + Tanks or Bio + Mines instead of Bio + Hellbats, or if he did Hellbat drops as he should, but great game nonetheless!
I loved the Idea of Swarm Hosts back when they introduced the unit for the first time. Then, I was a bit disappointed when people were trying a lot of stuff with them, and managed to come up only with all-in kind of attacks with them, where you make between 20 and 30 of them and attack. But when I watch your replays and videos, and TLO's VODs, I like them more and more! Such an awesome unit!
On February 15 2013 03:21 Ramiz1989 wrote: Great game there Blade! Yeah, that were my thoughts at first, "why not go for Mutas and then switch to Swarm Hosts?", but I guess they come a lot later than with the Infestor build since you are spending a lot more gas on Mutas and upgrades than on ~6 Infestors. Anyway, very solid game, you would have a bit more of a problems if Terran went with Bio + Tanks or Bio + Mines instead of Bio + Hellbats, or if he did Hellbat drops as he should, but great game nonetheless!
I loved the Idea of Swarm Hosts back when they introduced the unit for the first time. Then, I was a bit disappointed when people were trying a lot of stuff with them, and managed to come up only with all-in kind of attacks with them, where you make between 20 and 30 of them and attack. But when I watch your replays and videos, and TLO's VODs, I like them more and more! Such an awesome unit!
Hm you would actually be surprised. Swarmhosts actually are very good verse bio + mines (locusts soak mine shots which is nice) and they are also good verse bio + tanks. They are good because again they will be tanking tank shots while you run in with ling/bane and what not.
This is why I am doing a 2-3 parts of swarmhost zvt bio because I know some people might think it struggles verse compositions like those, but it doesn't believe it or not :D
Just wanted to drop in and say thanks for these tutorials. I've just received a HoTS key, and being on the look out for build orders and strats I stumbled upon these to find they're exactly the type of things I'd like to do. Your ZvP is real sexy, I love the transition into mass ground instead of Broodlord and your vsT feels like a real throwback to BW days. Thank you sir, keep making them and I'll keep watching them.
On February 16 2013 18:06 SeinGalton wrote: Hello Blade.
Just wanted to drop in and say thanks for these tutorials. I've just received a HoTS key, and being on the look out for build orders and strats I stumbled upon these to find they're exactly the type of things I'd like to do. Your ZvP is real sexy, I love the transition into mass ground instead of Broodlord and your vsT feels like a real throwback to BW days. Thank you sir, keep making them and I'll keep watching them.
Also I really need some help on this next part. I am doing a swarmhost zvt but I need to know which people would prefer, would you prefer it be vs bio + mass widow mine, or would you like to see standard bio + tank?
On February 16 2013 19:02 Existor wrote: I prefer to see both, or combination of both
Not a bad idea I will probably just do 3 parts then and do one with bio + widow and the other bio + tanks.
Jost post all your games with Swarm Hosts against skilled Terrans
Well for the videos I played some really sick zvt's and I am picking both that will feature very good games and show case how to use them pretty effectively.
If anybody were to call these players I played bad I would smack them for stupidity
Awesome for making these vids. I've been trying the strategies displayed in videos 3 and 4 for the last couple weeks. It's awesome to see they are still viable in GM play.
My only problem now is deciding which I favor... which strat I use (hydra den or spire) usually comes down to how my economy turns out by the time I reach T2 lol.
Great videos, Blade, these are great for the zerg hots community! I'm so sick of people just complaining about how much swarm hosts suck, you are proving them wrong.
On February 19 2013 12:27 ghost_face wrote: Great videos, Blade, these are great for the zerg hots community! I'm so sick of people just complaining about how much swarm hosts suck, you are proving them wrong.
Yeah I'm starting to like them more than Vipers these days (I felt opposite when I was newer in the beta). They aren't just great with the Zerg ground army, but they are just so damn fun with Muta play, very micro intensive strats using both those in your composition, and you can hit the enemy from so many angles at once. Even though SH are pretty immobile units, you can make them feel extremely mobile if you mix in spire units and nydus.
hehe thanks for the positive feedback. While I will be show casing the part 3 video of swarmhosts vs bio + tank. I am thinking they just aren't that great verse bio. I am definitely having pretty bad results if the terran drops a lot right as soon as swarmhosts pop because you don't have the army supply to deal with a 3 medivac drop in your main and a push at your fourth (all while they are probably taking a 4'th themselves).
So far if terran doesn't mass drop verse swarmhosts their awesome, but with the new speed medivac they kinda make going swarmhosts really hard and I am just thinking it's better to go muta first. Dunno zvt so hard right now if any of you have suggestions for unit compositions to try feel free to say and I will give it a shot most likely.
On February 19 2013 13:50 blade55555 wrote: hehe thanks for the positive feedback. While I will be show casing the part 3 video of swarmhosts vs bio + tank. I am thinking they just aren't that great verse bio. I am definitely having pretty bad results if the terran drops a lot right as soon as swarmhosts pop because you don't have the army supply to deal with a 3 medivac drop in your main and a push at your fourth (all while they are probably taking a 4'th themselves).
So far if terran doesn't mass drop verse swarmhosts their awesome, but with the new speed medivac they kinda make going swarmhosts really hard and I am just thinking it's better to go muta first. Dunno zvt so hard right now if any of you have suggestions for unit compositions to try feel free to say and I will give it a shot most likely.
Yeah, Muta first seems to be working better for me. Just have to make sure I don't get damaged by the harass too much so your economy can support it.
I've been getting overlord speed relatively fast and make sure I leave a bunch around to scout for drops, and as long as economy can support it I've been doing Mutalisk play. This for the most part seems to have discouraged drop play since you can snipe them if you spot them away from land. Really liking early OL speed and it works fine w/ a Roach opener since you are going gas anyway.
At that point they ideally have a hard time expanding or go in to somewhat of a turtle mode w/ rines/widows to secure an expansion, which is when I make some SH, and I find SH/Muta so damn fun. Even though Muta cant harass as hard w/ Widows around, you don't need to since SH can break them. Also I love how you can hit and run along with the waves and heal up between them, this keeps the enemy busy long enough to both spawn another wave and get some muta regen, also when retreating to regen can hit them at their base to make them hesitant to push, which makes SH even stronger and negatives the relative immobility of the army.
Also for the composition I make a few Roaches/Banes. Roaches just to suck up damage for the Locusts, instead of letting the Locusts go in first. Followed by the Banes, with locusts behind. That way the locusts can deal their damage rather than absorb hits (with each doing almost as much damage as a Hydra I like to use them like Hydras rather than how I'd use Roaches or Broodlings). Usually evens things up a bit if the MMM ball got big, and it's mostly Marines at that point usually since the Mutas are around.
Usually don't even need to bust out the T3 units, although I get a Hive just in case. And I've found myself going greater spire rather than Ultra. The Corruptors snipe their mobile detection so SH are near impossible to take out w/ only scans if u micro between waves, and leave Marines or Widows as their only real option to stop Mutas, and BL are strong against both of those.
Curious to see if you have tried any other comps; specificalyl JD's hydraling zvt, i would love to see a tutorial based on that. I don't think he's doing an optimal build and was jsut messing around, but maybe delaying the ultralisks for an earlier 3rd evo would make that build better. I don't know.
For reference for anyone else - JD played hots last night and used hydra ling with ranged ups (double evo), added infestors to fast hive for vipers for an early end-game comp of hydra/viper/festor and adding in ultralisks for tanking. It was *intersting* but definitely not refined.
On February 21 2013 05:40 Jowj wrote: Curious to see if you have tried any other comps; specificalyl JD's hydraling zvt, i would love to see a tutorial based on that. I don't think he's doing an optimal build and was jsut messing around, but maybe delaying the ultralisks for an earlier 3rd evo would make that build better. I don't know.
For reference for anyone else - JD played hots last night and used hydra ling with ranged ups (double evo), added infestors to fast hive for vipers for an early end-game comp of hydra/viper/festor and adding in ultralisks for tanking. It was *intersting* but definitely not refined.
I felt that opening was far inferior to Roach/Hydra or Roach/Muta openers. Lings don't cut it with the commonly used units anymore.
Although that might change once the next balance patch goes through and moves Hellbat research. But even then it's going to be depending on your tech path/planned upgrades. I tend to steer away from Lings when going ranged upgrades as mentioned here.
The reason I feel this way: If you are going Hydra you easily have the gas to support Roaches in addition, and both take much better advantage of the upgrades. Early game Banelings are much more useful than Lings nowdays (especially if you are going Hydra, they can handle all the units Hydras can't handle well all the way up until Colossus come out). Banelings work better with Roaches than Lings imo as well in most compositions
The best use I've had for Lings in ZvT these days is for a tech switch later game to perform a runby unexpectedly, to deny expansions, or counterattack after a battle before the enemy has recovered.
But as I mentioned earlier, I'm favoring Muta openers rather than Hydra openers in ZvT. Unlike ZvP, Terran doesn't really have any midgame air units that counter Mutas very hard, and forcing Marine/Thor/Widows is easier to handle with the new HotS units/balance changes. You just have to be more careful w/ Mutas than before.
Also keep in mind Marine/Thor/Widows typically aren't the most mobile army, sets up for the ling runbys or counter attacks perfectly.
Description: Going the roach/ling/bane/swarmhost composition, why I go roach/ling/bane and then swarmhosts and how to transition, when to transition to what and why.
you dealt with those midgame drops really well, especially for not having static defenses up. very impressive. Any chance you could do a video against a very aggressive proxy reaper build?
On February 28 2013 09:38 Lobotomist wrote: you dealt with those midgame drops really well, especially for not having static defenses up. very impressive. Any chance you could do a video against a very aggressive proxy reaper build?
I will try to get some once release hits if there are any.
For the zvz videos I imagine you guys will understand why it will take a couple weeks until that can be done. Can't watch replays so can't go over one until release.