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On June 21 2014 15:17 Trinric wrote: I am a masters zerg and I honestly have ZERO idea on how to deal with a late game viking, siege tank, mass raven, couple thors, mech army. Infestors, swarm hosts, mass spores, etc, will never beat it because he can just ignore them and kill every single unit with seekers.
The only way I can imagine and the only way I saw it (on Leenock's stream a few days ago) is to basically get mass corrupter to kill his airforce (on mass seeker, fly into his army, so he takes the massive damage too), which will likely sacrifice all your corrupters and then quickly remax on mass muta ling to kill the remnants of his army and not let him get up to a big ball again. Obviously you have to get a big bank (both in resources and larva) first, which isn't always easy.
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On June 20 2014 12:01 learning88 wrote:I have a few questions about ZvZ. So at this point in time, there's only 2 ways to play macro ZvZ, mass roaches or mutas. I like to open mutas instead of roaches because I just feel roach wars are sooo boring to me. So my questions pertain to how to open with mutas and how to finish the game. 1. What is the standard BO and how should my tech progress to mutas? NOTE: this is assuming there's absolutely NO pressure just to make the BO simpler to understand. I usually open like I do in ZvT (15 hatch, 16 pool, 17 gas). At 100 gas, get ling speed. At next 50 gas, get bane nest. At 100 gas, start lair and get 2nd, 3rd, and 4th gas and get 3rd base (not sure if its necessary to take all gases at once because I'll be losing out on 9 drones from minerals once the extractors are done). I take an early 3rd because I read somewhere that when going mutas, you should make a fast 3rd (maybe this is too early and very unsafe). Once lair finishes, start spire and then I work from there. Should I be getting my third that early? How many drones should be on minerals in my third? I always saturate it but I think its preferred to have only like 10 drones instead (not sure)? 2. How should I play through the mid-game against mutas or roaches? Against mutas: I tend to make up to like 20-25 mutas but invest in my melee and carapace upgrades more than getting a higher muta count so I can just attack with my lings in multiple places. And then I slowly progress to 3-3 and just keep on harrassing with lings. Because of the spore crawler buff, my bases can be pretty safe. If his muta count gets too out of control, I should be on 3 or 4 base with 6-8 gases so I can churn out infestors quick to fungal them. Against roaches: I would have to make a bunch of lings to protect my 3rd from the common roach timing that's intended to kill my third. By the time the roaches are going towards my base, I would have 6-8 mutas attacking them already. From here I switch to roaches and then add on SH while trying to get range upgrade. I'm thinking of trying double upgrading just to be able to keep up better against roach hydra upgrades. So I use the mutas for map control and slow down the 3rd timing. I guess my gameplan from here is to max out on roach/SH as fast as possible and just keep attacking because I would have the earlier 3rd to be able to keep outproducing my opponent. Please let me know what should be fixed in my ZvZ. I lost like 5 straight ZvZ the other day and its getting kind of frustrating your biggest threat is always a big 1-1 roach push to decimate your third/walk into your mineral lines, so you should be using heavy ling pressure throughout the game to 1) deny/harass the third and 2) try to bring roaches back so they aren't pushing, this is also what gives you the opportunity to get your third faster as you'll have a stronger ling count and he'll have to play defensively (careful tho as good players will read heavy ling presence as a possible muta play). melee upgrades aren't a good idea unless you're going for ultras or brood lords as a transition, because you're either in a muta vs muta war and want gas for mutas or you're playing roach/hydra/infestor and the upgrades aren't going to do shit anyway
the safe, standard way to play muta vs roach in zvz is to get 10-15 muta and then do a hard switch into usually single evo ground. it's possible to commit more to mutas and try to overwhelm your opponent with muta/ling/bane or a brood lord switch (scarlett style), but this requires a pretty high level of play to work against a skilled opponent. for the roach switch you are always going to be behind in upgrades when opening muta, so trying to keep up is a poor use of gas, especially because attack is much more important than armor. your advantage ideally will be in economy and production, so if you go double evo you're playing to your weakness instead of your strength. if you're only getting out 6-8 muta then i don't think you're taking gases quickly enough at the third, because that's not a good number. you want to use the mutas for map control, overlord sniping, killing extractors/queens/transferring drones/etc. while getting heavy saturation on your third and taking an economic advantage that will hopefully give you enough to defend his push and take an economic lead into the midgame. the swarm host switch can work but it's not my style at all and i have no advice there
in muta vs muta i don't recommend melee upgrades past early +1 armor unless you get to a 5-6+ base maxed out composition or you're aiming for an ultra switch. you're just slowing down your muta production, and if your muta count is behind then you can't control the map with them. i don't agree with your muta vs muta gameplan. if you're going to go to 20-25 muta and switch, then switch into a standard ranged ground composition with a few defensive roaches to keep your bases safe from lings and infestors for fungal, then add hydras so you can just push and win with the far superior composition. to be honest if you're not committing to full mass muta anyway i recommend you play the exact same way you would against roaches except with faster infestors. think about it, why do you want that many muta if you know from the start you're committed to putting yourself behind in gas by upgrading your lings and going for infestation pit/hive? upgraded lings are really trash in zvz. you need to either commit hard to mutas and try to out-muta him or turtle up for your tech switch while running around with your mutas and lings to keep him busy. having a big flock of mutas that are behind in numbers and air upgrades is about the worst feeling you can have, so a game plan that takes you there every time sounds awful. you aren't going to be able to beat every opponent you face with sick ling multitasking, sooner or later they'll be experienced and good at defending that stuff
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I think I forgot how baneling drops (from overlord) works?! Unload button and left click on a overlord doesnt work, because only one overlord unload banelings.
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If you want moving drops, that's how you have to do it I think. Click several times.
I was actually thinking the other day, can you do something cool with drops and rapid fire? I'll go test when I get access to computer next time. :p
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On June 21 2014 23:42 Dingodile wrote: I think I forgot how baneling drops (from overlord) works?! Unload button and left click on a overlord doesnt work, because only one overlord unload banelings.
Moving drops requires you to click each overlord individually so that it starts technically dropping on its own current position while completing the original move command.
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I'm low level. On the ladder right now in zvt it seems like almost every terran I face is going for some form of big early hellbat push with marines. It seems to hit around 6:00. I know if I get roaches and speed out fast enough I can easily hold this but detecting it is hard for me because it looks fairly standard (at least to me) at the 4:30 mark. Besides scouting the armory (which can be hard) are there any "tells" to this build I should look out for? Is there a point at which if see 1 rax and reactored factory and no expo I should stop droning and make units? Any help much appreciated.
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I'm new and I'm having trouble in ZvZ in that whenever my opponent goes mutas, I lose. What happens is that I'll spot the mutas, I'm always on 2 bases at that point so i build a hydralisk den, but I never have enough gas to stop the mutas if they stick to it. So I get a 3rd once I notice that but they always kill it off with their mutas as its building, and by that point I do not have enough hydras to attack their army, so I can pretty much just try to harass with burrowed roaches. which is always stopped due to most having spores. Or turtle up, in which case they get tons of banelings and just mow me down when I try to move out. What do I do? Also they kill off any attempts at spreading creep so I can move down my spores with muta + overseers.
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On June 23 2014 06:47 Varroth wrote: I'm new and I'm having trouble in ZvZ in that whenever my opponent goes mutas, I lose. What happens is that I'll spot the mutas, I'm always on 2 bases at that point so i build a hydralisk den, but I never have enough gas to stop the mutas if they stick to it. So I get a 3rd once I notice that but they always kill it off with their mutas as its building, and by that point I do not have enough hydras to attack their army, so I can pretty much just try to harass with burrowed roaches. which is always stopped due to most having spores. Or turtle up, in which case they get tons of banelings and just mow me down when I try to move out. What do I do? Also they kill off any attempts at spreading creep so I can move down my spores with muta + overseers. produce queens while you're teching to either hydra or infestor. queens with transfuse and a spore are easily enough to defend the third base, and if he brings in lings then have roaches hug the hatch and make sure to have a few roaches at your natural wall as well so you don't get hit with a runby. produce the third spore before the third hatch finishes. putting it at your natural wall to defend evos/tech is a good choice, that way it's already completed when the third hatch completes and you can just uproot and move it to the 3rd mineral line
with roaches you can move out with 1/1 and go kill his third and/or sit on his mineral lines and there's really not much he can do since even if you lose your entire army you're trading it for economy (which he badly needs on muta tech) and he's not going to have roaches to counterattack. you don't need to wait for burrow and sneak around, just push and ignore the mutas if they try to attack your roaches, you're buying yourself time. if he commits to mass muta i think it's a little better to have infestors since there's an off chance that with good control he can start trading against your hydras as opposed to fungal which poses a threat to any number of muta, but it doesn't really matter too much, you can go either way. eventually for your final push you want roach/hydra/infestor, unless you're just wrecking him (like lots of mutas are dead or he has zero economy or something) and you can end it before that. fungals are also the counter to speed baneling play btw
also, this is obvious advice but important: scout the spire, not the mutas. if you don't know about mutas until they're on the map you're in a bad position. as soon as your lair finishes your forward overlord should be morphing to an overseer and scouting for tech. on ladder it's a good idea even if you've seen a roach warren, because there are players cheesy enough to literally build roach warren/double evo at the front, never build roaches and just hide a spire (this is uncommon, it's just that being in the practice of lair scouting is always really good)
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On June 23 2014 00:20 sick_transit wrote: I'm low level. On the ladder right now in zvt it seems like almost every terran I face is going for some form of big early hellbat push with marines. It seems to hit around 6:00. I know if I get roaches and speed out fast enough I can easily hold this but detecting it is hard for me because it looks fairly standard (at least to me) at the 4:30 mark. Besides scouting the armory (which can be hard) are there any "tells" to this build I should look out for? Is there a point at which if see 1 rax and reactored factory and no expo I should stop droning and make units? Any help much appreciated. The way I start zvt is to get three bases as fast as i can, if I for some reason doesn't get the third base at once then I make 4 or 5 queens to defend and spread creep. I also make a spine which takes on almost anything, especially if he goes for cloaked banshee and you need something vs hellions while the queens are busy.
I haven't seen that hellbat-push for really long now but I'm former master (maybe dia now) and plays on eu.
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United States4883 Posts
On June 23 2014 00:20 sick_transit wrote: I'm low level. On the ladder right now in zvt it seems like almost every terran I face is going for some form of big early hellbat push with marines. It seems to hit around 6:00. I know if I get roaches and speed out fast enough I can easily hold this but detecting it is hard for me because it looks fairly standard (at least to me) at the 4:30 mark. Besides scouting the armory (which can be hard) are there any "tells" to this build I should look out for? Is there a point at which if see 1 rax and reactored factory and no expo I should stop droning and make units? Any help much appreciated.
I'm not sure exactly what "low level" means or where that stands anymore, but the biggest tell for a properly executed 2-base hellbat push is the lack of a 3rd CC around 6:00-7:00, in which case you can get out roaches in time to deal with the pushes that start as early as 8:00. The timing you speak of sounds more like a 1-base or 1.5-base opening, in which case you're mostly just looking for the presence of a natural expansion and your opponent's saturation, which should look quite conspicuous if there's pretty much nothing there at ~5:00. Against 1-base all-ins, you can also go ahead and sacrifice or cancel the third base and still end up far far ahead.
On June 21 2014 19:40 501TFX wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2014 15:17 Trinric wrote: I am a masters zerg and I honestly have ZERO idea on how to deal with a late game viking, siege tank, mass raven, couple thors, mech army. Infestors, swarm hosts, mass spores, etc, will never beat it because he can just ignore them and kill every single unit with seekers.
The only way I can imagine and the only way I saw it (on Leenock's stream a few days ago) is to basically get mass corrupter to kill his airforce (on mass seeker, fly into his army, so he takes the massive damage too), which will likely sacrifice all your corrupters and then quickly remax on mass muta ling to kill the remnants of his army and not let him get up to a big ball again. Obviously you have to get a big bank (both in resources and larva) first, which isn't always easy.
Muta/SH is still the most effective way to deal with mech, imo. Mutas are infinitely better than corruptors (in terms of utility) and cost pretty much the same. The idea is to constantly siege your opponent's mining bases with SHs and force your opponent to place his ground forces there while meanwhile harassing on the opposite side of the map with the mutas. The mobility of the mutas allows you to swing back and forth between one side and the other while sieging and taking the entire map.
To deal with the raven/viking ball, you just need to a) keep the raven energy low and b) keep the raven/viking count lowish. The best way to do this is to occasionally divebomb the raven/viking force, force out 1-2 seeker missiles and snipe a raven/viking, then just pull away before the seeker missile goes off. In the later stages of the game, once 1-2 thors can help zone out the mutas effectively, then you need ~4 burrowed infestors to accompany the mutas. The infestors can get chipping damage with fungal as well as zone out the raven/viking ball some and allow your mutas a little more freedom again.
There are OCCASIONAL ultra switches once the tank count has been lowered, but that's like super super lategame. Watch Soulkey and HyuN, as they play this style quite well against mech. The most important part is to play kind of like Scarlett: do a lot of mutalisk harassment to keep your opponent pinned back and GO HAM on creep spread/expansions and just kind of take over the map .
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Hi, Can someone explain to me roach & hydra vs pure roach?? And during televised match, I always see roach vs roach. Can someone tell me why don't they go roach hydra??
Thanks!
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On June 24 2014 20:11 zackyhell wrote: Hi, Can someone explain to me roach & hydra vs pure roach?? And during televised match, I always see roach vs roach. Can someone tell me why don't they go roach hydra??
Thanks!
People usually go Roach vs Roach to begin with. If the game doesn't end in the stage where you use pure roach then once you've got a good enough of an economy people build either Infestation Pit or Hydralisk den. Most go for Hydralisk den as it adds a ton of damage and they have longer range than Roaches meaning you can have them behind your roaches safe from any roaches you face dealing tons of extra damage.
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On June 24 2014 20:11 zackyhell wrote: Hi, Can someone explain to me roach & hydra vs pure roach?? And during televised match, I always see roach vs roach. Can someone tell me why don't they go roach hydra??
Thanks!
Roach-hydra can often die to a pure roach attack, as the hydras die very quickly if they are not positioned well. Positioning them well is very difficult because you need enough roaches in front of them to prevent the opponent from shooting over your roaches, and you need enough roaches around the sides to prevent a flank.
Roaches on their own are very effective since they can both take and deal damage reasonably well. Hydras are better at dealing damage, but are very fragile and thus an expensive risk.
On June 24 2014 20:20 Varroth wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2014 20:11 zackyhell wrote: Hi, Can someone explain to me roach & hydra vs pure roach?? And during televised match, I always see roach vs roach. Can someone tell me why don't they go roach hydra??
Thanks! People usually go Roach vs Roach to begin with. If the game doesn't end in the stage where you use pure roach then once you've got a good enough of an economy people build either Infestation Pit or Hydralisk den. Most go for Hydralisk den as it adds a ton of damage and they have longer range than Roaches meaning you can have them behind your roaches safe from any roaches you face dealing tons of extra damage.
Did you actually give any kind of answer to his question? I feel like you answered with exactly nothing, just a description of what he implies he knows about the benefit of adding hydras. btw soo vs true in GSL was generally just pure roach for a long time, even on strong econ. and on alterzim, true even went for spore cancel to get even more roaches. usually what seems to happen is a switch to hive tech after massive roach trades, but even then you need a core army of roaches to not die to a followup roach push.
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So it turns out my all inning sucks too. Granted, I didn't try every build order suggested but I tried enough to know zergs too tough for me. Thanks anyway guys, I think I'm gonna give up on zerg/laddering for a while, I just can't do it without getting mad/sad anymore.
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United States4883 Posts
On June 25 2014 01:27 6xFPCs wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2014 20:11 zackyhell wrote: Hi, Can someone explain to me roach & hydra vs pure roach?? And during televised match, I always see roach vs roach. Can someone tell me why don't they go roach hydra??
Thanks! Roach-hydra can often die to a pure roach attack, as the hydras die very quickly if they are not positioned well. Positioning them well is very difficult because you need enough roaches in front of them to prevent the opponent from shooting over your roaches, and you need enough roaches around the sides to prevent a flank. Roaches on their own are very effective since they can both take and deal damage reasonably well. Hydras are better at dealing damage, but are very fragile and thus an expensive risk. Show nested quote +On June 24 2014 20:20 Varroth wrote:On June 24 2014 20:11 zackyhell wrote: Hi, Can someone explain to me roach & hydra vs pure roach?? And during televised match, I always see roach vs roach. Can someone tell me why don't they go roach hydra??
Thanks! People usually go Roach vs Roach to begin with. If the game doesn't end in the stage where you use pure roach then once you've got a good enough of an economy people build either Infestation Pit or Hydralisk den. Most go for Hydralisk den as it adds a ton of damage and they have longer range than Roaches meaning you can have them behind your roaches safe from any roaches you face dealing tons of extra damage. Did you actually give any kind of answer to his question? I feel like you answered with exactly nothing, just a description of what he implies he knows about the benefit of adding hydras. btw soo vs true in GSL was generally just pure roach for a long time, even on strong econ. and on alterzim, true even went for spore cancel to get even more roaches. usually what seems to happen is a switch to hive tech after massive roach trades, but even then you need a core army of roaches to not die to a followup roach push.
I think Varroth was trying to give a nice, "low level" response, but in general, when you reply in this thread with answers, they need to be well thought-out and highly informational, even if you don't think a player is a high enough level to understand it. Either way, both of you missed the point, imo.
The biggest dynamic that separates pure roach play from roach/hydra is the amount of aggression you're putting on. Roach/hydra is a very sit-back-and-macro composition that relies on getting a huge scary army and deflecting any kind of harassment or zoning out attacks. On the contrary, mass roach styles rely more on constant attacking from every direction and every side with burrowed roach tactics and runarounds because they can't win against a roach/hydra ball once it gets up and running. When both players decide to play aggressively, that's when you run into this mass roach vs. mass roach dynamic; the game never settles down, and so both player stick on roaches to try and gain a momentum advantage. Very commonly, if a player invests really heavily into a pure roach mid game, they'll transition to infestors first instead of hydras because infestors better support that type of army. (Eventually, of course, you do add on hydras and vipers for your late game comp).
On June 25 2014 02:30 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: So it turns out my all inning sucks too. Granted, I didn't try every build order suggested but I tried enough to know zergs too tough for me. Thanks anyway guys, I think I'm gonna give up on zerg/laddering for a while, I just can't do it without getting mad/sad anymore.
Take a break for a little while. Go play something like Heroes or Hearthstone or even the SC2 arcade for a little while. There's no point in playing a game if you hate it. Just relax and eventually you'll start enjoying things again. Tbh, I very commonly take like 2-3 week breaks completely from playing SC2, and a lot of times, I'll just change races completely and reset back to wood league just to try and mix things up .
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On June 19 2014 14:50 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2014 14:16 Mjolnir wrote: Please help me.
I am at my wit's end. I suck so badly at this game and it has me frustrated so much that I'm starting to get really, really angry when I lose. I have played since vanilla SC, and I used to be pretty decent. In fact, I was quite good at BW. When SC2 hit, I was a high diamond, took some time off so I never got into master when it was introduced (if I would have even been able to) and when HotS hit, I just lost every ounce of skill I ever had (if I even had it).
I'm frustrated to the point where I'm ready, and willing, to just quit SC2 and RTS games permanently. I feel absolutely fucking stupid. Just fucking stupid. Why can I not figure out or fix my issues?
I know I could post a replay, but those sort of suggestions are not what I want at the moment. I would like for you to tell me a concrete, tried-and-true, back-to-fundamentals type of build order for each match up. Something I can use every time I face a Zerg, Protoss, or Terran. I know this won't get me guaranteed wins, and I know things change as the opponent adjusts (I'm not after miracles here) but it will at least allow me to see what I'm doing wrong with a contemporary build that has been "peer-reviewed" so I'm not left wondering if my BO just sucked. I believe part of my issue is that my current "go-to" builds are antiquated.
If this fails, I will post replays as my last effort to get help. If that fails, I'm out.
I can't believe how this game makes me feel so absolutely shitty about myself. Like I'm too fucking stupid to learn and correct mistakes. Fuck me. I just don't get it. Add to that the inevitable BM from people after they roflstomp me like the scrub I am. Fun times.
So, please. I would love some suggestions for solid build orders for ZvZ, ZvT, and ZvP. Please.
Show nested quote +On June 19 2014 14:27 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:On June 19 2014 14:16 Mjolnir wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Please help me.
I am at my wit's end. I suck so badly at this game and it has me frustrated so much that I'm starting to get really, really angry when I lose. I have played since vanilla SC, and I used to be pretty decent. In fact, I was quite good at BW. When SC2 hit, I was a high diamond, took some time off so I never got into master when it was introduced (if I would have even been able to) and when HotS hit, I just lost every ounce of skill I ever had (if I even had it).
I'm frustrated to the point where I'm ready, and willing, to just quit SC2 and RTS games permanently. I feel absolutely fucking stupid. Just fucking stupid. Why can I not figure out or fix my issues?
I know I could post a replay, but those sort of suggestions are not what I want at the moment. I would like for you to tell me a concrete, tried-and-true, back-to-fundamentals type of build order for each match up. Something I can use every time I face a Zerg, Protoss, or Terran. I know this won't get me guaranteed wins, and I know things change as the opponent adjusts (I'm not after miracles here) but it will at least allow me to see what I'm doing wrong with a contemporary build that has been "peer-reviewed" so I'm not left wondering if my BO just sucked. I believe part of my issue is that my current "go-to" builds are antiquated.
If this fails, I will post replays as my last effort to get help. If that fails, I'm out.
I can't believe how this game makes me feel so absolutely shitty about myself. Like I'm too fucking stupid to learn and correct mistakes. Fuck me. I just don't get it. Add to that the inevitable BM from people after they roflstomp me like the scrub I am. Fun times.
So, please. I would love some suggestions for solid build orders for ZvZ, ZvT, and ZvP. Please. Man, I get how you feel. This game can be very discouraging at times. I just started laddering again, and I've switched to zerg from protoss, but already my motivation is getting washed up because I just keep losing without really improving. Anyway. I need help. My zerg game is garbage. I'm in gold league now and I really shouldn't be. I've lost every legit game so far this season. What are the true fundimentals I should learn to play zerg? What kind of builds should I be doing as a low level player? I feel as though I have okay micro, but not much else. Playing is a world away from just watching, which I've been doing too much of for far too long. If this kind of post is too common, just direct me to where I should be looking and I'll go there. Thanks for you're guy's help. My suggestion is to start playing more all-ins and cheeses if you're feeling very frustrated with your play. In the SC2 community, these seems to be this attitude that cheeses and all-ins are taboo and "no skill" or whatever, but, in fact, they really help you with your play while simplifying your game plan and allowing you a little more mental space to think. I often advise people to throw in a cheese or all-in every 2-3 games to a) work on different skills and figure out exact timings and small tells and scouting in the early game and b) just relax and take some pressure off of yourself for a while. ZvT: Life's Sickkk Roach/Ling All-inHyuN's Roach/Hydra ZvTAny of the classic baneling busts (15h/16p/16g -> 2nd gas @5:00 -> roach warren/bane nest or thereabouts) ZvP: Triple hatch before pool -> baneling bust 14/14 is still decent roach/queen/nydus all-in (2-base and 3-base versions) ZvZ: 15h/16g/15p -> speedling all-in (nothing but lings after pool finishes -> hide them until speed finishes) 10p/bane -> 3 banes 6pool/spine crawler rush!!! :D If you need any more details or thoughts on these, let me know. If Waise or another more seasoned Zerg player wants to throw in any more builds, feel free to.
Hi SC2John, first of all thanks a lot for your contribution to this thread! You re awesome! Could you expand a bit on your ZvP all in? Especially the Triple hatch into baneling bust and the nydus one (both versions). Thx!
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On June 25 2014 06:28 SC2John wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 25 2014 01:27 6xFPCs wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2014 20:11 zackyhell wrote: Hi, Can someone explain to me roach & hydra vs pure roach?? And during televised match, I always see roach vs roach. Can someone tell me why don't they go roach hydra??
Thanks! Roach-hydra can often die to a pure roach attack, as the hydras die very quickly if they are not positioned well. Positioning them well is very difficult because you need enough roaches in front of them to prevent the opponent from shooting over your roaches, and you need enough roaches around the sides to prevent a flank. Roaches on their own are very effective since they can both take and deal damage reasonably well. Hydras are better at dealing damage, but are very fragile and thus an expensive risk. Show nested quote +On June 24 2014 20:20 Varroth wrote:On June 24 2014 20:11 zackyhell wrote: Hi, Can someone explain to me roach & hydra vs pure roach?? And during televised match, I always see roach vs roach. Can someone tell me why don't they go roach hydra??
Thanks! People usually go Roach vs Roach to begin with. If the game doesn't end in the stage where you use pure roach then once you've got a good enough of an economy people build either Infestation Pit or Hydralisk den. Most go for Hydralisk den as it adds a ton of damage and they have longer range than Roaches meaning you can have them behind your roaches safe from any roaches you face dealing tons of extra damage. Did you actually give any kind of answer to his question? I feel like you answered with exactly nothing, just a description of what he implies he knows about the benefit of adding hydras. btw soo vs true in GSL was generally just pure roach for a long time, even on strong econ. and on alterzim, true even went for spore cancel to get even more roaches. usually what seems to happen is a switch to hive tech after massive roach trades, but even then you need a core army of roaches to not die to a followup roach push. I think Varroth was trying to give a nice, "low level" response, but in general, when you reply in this thread with answers, they need to be well thought-out and highly informational, even if you don't think a player is a high enough level to understand it. Either way, both of you missed the point, imo. The biggest dynamic that separates pure roach play from roach/hydra is the amount of aggression you're putting on. Roach/hydra is a very sit-back-and-macro composition that relies on getting a huge scary army and deflecting any kind of harassment or zoning out attacks. On the contrary, mass roach styles rely more on constant attacking from every direction and every side with burrowed roach tactics and runarounds because they can't win against a roach/hydra ball once it gets up and running. When both players decide to play aggressively, that's when you run into this mass roach vs. mass roach dynamic; the game never settles down, and so both player stick on roaches to try and gain a momentum advantage. Very commonly, if a player invests really heavily into a pure roach mid game, they'll transition to infestors first instead of hydras because infestors better support that type of army. (Eventually, of course, you do add on hydras and vipers for your late game comp). Show nested quote +On June 25 2014 02:30 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: So it turns out my all inning sucks too. Granted, I didn't try every build order suggested but I tried enough to know zergs too tough for me. Thanks anyway guys, I think I'm gonna give up on zerg/laddering for a while, I just can't do it without getting mad/sad anymore. Take a break for a little while. Go play something like Heroes or Hearthstone or even the SC2 arcade for a little while. There's no point in playing a game if you hate it. Just relax and eventually you'll start enjoying things again. Tbh, I very commonly take like 2-3 week breaks completely from playing SC2, and a lot of times, I'll just change races completely and reset back to wood league just to try and mix things up .
Thanks, but I think I'm just done with being a starcraft player. I can always enjoy it to some degree vicariously through watching, but I'll never not suck with my motivation levels and attitude to losing. I gave HotS a chance, but I'm giving up this time again. I'm just not cut out for this shit. It's kind of pathetic but when I actually start getting ladder depression it's probably good for my mental health to not bother anymore. I've got real to depression to deal with already, I dont need more.
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United States4883 Posts
On June 25 2014 06:55 WGT-Baal wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2014 14:50 SC2John wrote:On June 19 2014 14:16 Mjolnir wrote: Please help me.
I am at my wit's end. I suck so badly at this game and it has me frustrated so much that I'm starting to get really, really angry when I lose. I have played since vanilla SC, and I used to be pretty decent. In fact, I was quite good at BW. When SC2 hit, I was a high diamond, took some time off so I never got into master when it was introduced (if I would have even been able to) and when HotS hit, I just lost every ounce of skill I ever had (if I even had it).
I'm frustrated to the point where I'm ready, and willing, to just quit SC2 and RTS games permanently. I feel absolutely fucking stupid. Just fucking stupid. Why can I not figure out or fix my issues?
I know I could post a replay, but those sort of suggestions are not what I want at the moment. I would like for you to tell me a concrete, tried-and-true, back-to-fundamentals type of build order for each match up. Something I can use every time I face a Zerg, Protoss, or Terran. I know this won't get me guaranteed wins, and I know things change as the opponent adjusts (I'm not after miracles here) but it will at least allow me to see what I'm doing wrong with a contemporary build that has been "peer-reviewed" so I'm not left wondering if my BO just sucked. I believe part of my issue is that my current "go-to" builds are antiquated.
If this fails, I will post replays as my last effort to get help. If that fails, I'm out.
I can't believe how this game makes me feel so absolutely shitty about myself. Like I'm too fucking stupid to learn and correct mistakes. Fuck me. I just don't get it. Add to that the inevitable BM from people after they roflstomp me like the scrub I am. Fun times.
So, please. I would love some suggestions for solid build orders for ZvZ, ZvT, and ZvP. Please.
On June 19 2014 14:27 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:On June 19 2014 14:16 Mjolnir wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Please help me.
I am at my wit's end. I suck so badly at this game and it has me frustrated so much that I'm starting to get really, really angry when I lose. I have played since vanilla SC, and I used to be pretty decent. In fact, I was quite good at BW. When SC2 hit, I was a high diamond, took some time off so I never got into master when it was introduced (if I would have even been able to) and when HotS hit, I just lost every ounce of skill I ever had (if I even had it).
I'm frustrated to the point where I'm ready, and willing, to just quit SC2 and RTS games permanently. I feel absolutely fucking stupid. Just fucking stupid. Why can I not figure out or fix my issues?
I know I could post a replay, but those sort of suggestions are not what I want at the moment. I would like for you to tell me a concrete, tried-and-true, back-to-fundamentals type of build order for each match up. Something I can use every time I face a Zerg, Protoss, or Terran. I know this won't get me guaranteed wins, and I know things change as the opponent adjusts (I'm not after miracles here) but it will at least allow me to see what I'm doing wrong with a contemporary build that has been "peer-reviewed" so I'm not left wondering if my BO just sucked. I believe part of my issue is that my current "go-to" builds are antiquated.
If this fails, I will post replays as my last effort to get help. If that fails, I'm out.
I can't believe how this game makes me feel so absolutely shitty about myself. Like I'm too fucking stupid to learn and correct mistakes. Fuck me. I just don't get it. Add to that the inevitable BM from people after they roflstomp me like the scrub I am. Fun times.
So, please. I would love some suggestions for solid build orders for ZvZ, ZvT, and ZvP. Please. Man, I get how you feel. This game can be very discouraging at times. I just started laddering again, and I've switched to zerg from protoss, but already my motivation is getting washed up because I just keep losing without really improving. Anyway. I need help. My zerg game is garbage. I'm in gold league now and I really shouldn't be. I've lost every legit game so far this season. What are the true fundimentals I should learn to play zerg? What kind of builds should I be doing as a low level player? I feel as though I have okay micro, but not much else. Playing is a world away from just watching, which I've been doing too much of for far too long. If this kind of post is too common, just direct me to where I should be looking and I'll go there. Thanks for you're guy's help. My suggestion is to start playing more all-ins and cheeses if you're feeling very frustrated with your play. In the SC2 community, these seems to be this attitude that cheeses and all-ins are taboo and "no skill" or whatever, but, in fact, they really help you with your play while simplifying your game plan and allowing you a little more mental space to think. I often advise people to throw in a cheese or all-in every 2-3 games to a) work on different skills and figure out exact timings and small tells and scouting in the early game and b) just relax and take some pressure off of yourself for a while. ZvT: Life's Sickkk Roach/Ling All-inHyuN's Roach/Hydra ZvTAny of the classic baneling busts (15h/16p/16g -> 2nd gas @5:00 -> roach warren/bane nest or thereabouts) ZvP: Triple hatch before pool -> baneling bust 14/14 is still decent roach/queen/nydus all-in (2-base and 3-base versions) ZvZ: 15h/16g/15p -> speedling all-in (nothing but lings after pool finishes -> hide them until speed finishes) 10p/bane -> 3 banes 6pool/spine crawler rush!!! :D If you need any more details or thoughts on these, let me know. If Waise or another more seasoned Zerg player wants to throw in any more builds, feel free to. Hi SC2John, first of all thanks a lot for your contribution to this thread! You re awesome! Could you expand a bit on your ZvP all in? Especially the Triple hatch into baneling bust and the nydus one (both versions). Thx!
Triple hatch before pool -> all-in is a beautiful way to all-in in PvZ. It definitely takes a bit of a risk, but on a map like Frost or Alterzim, it's definitely more unlikely that your opponent will scout you and/or cannon you, so it's fairly safe. In addition, when the Protoss scouts you, they tend to expect some kind of a macro game and start cutting corners and get greedy. With this build, I just cut drones as soon as the pool finishes and get one queen and start stockpiling lings from the very beginning. If you do it correctly, it should hit right around 6:00-6:30 and the MSC is typically crossing the map to scout during the pressure.
15 hatch 17 hatch 18 gas 18 pool @100% pool -> queen x1, zerglings x2 @100 gas -> baneling nest Hide rest of lings in main base and deny scouting with queen/zerglings
Ez win. Fun times.
The other one is just a very standard roach/queen/nydus all-in. Essentially, you just forgo a 3rd or extra gases in favor of 6-8 queens and put down a nydus network at lair tech and just nydus either into their main or in front of their natural. I don't know the specifics on the timings, but maybe Jowj can help you out with that.
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Platinum Zerg.
What's the most effective way to do ZvZ ling/bling knife fight micro.
I like to hotkey my lings as 1, banelings as 2, and I try to keep my banelings on a move command unless i'm trying to detonate them, and then when I want to attack one of my opponents blings i try to manually select 1-3 zerglings away from my control group and send them to attack the baneling.
What I want to know is if I'm doing this right, or if there's a more proper way. Note I'm not looking for the easiest way to do it, I want the one that is most effective even if it takes forever to learn.
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United States4883 Posts
On June 25 2014 14:37 wrier wrote: Platinum Zerg.
What's the most effective way to do ZvZ ling/bling knife fight micro.
I like to hotkey my lings as 1, banelings as 2, and I try to keep my banelings on a move command unless i'm trying to detonate them, and then when I want to attack one of my opponents blings i try to manually select 1-3 zerglings away from my control group and send them to attack the baneling.
What I want to know is if I'm doing this right, or if there's a more proper way. Note I'm not looking for the easiest way to do it, I want the one that is most effective even if it takes forever to learn.
That's pretty much correct.
1) To split off lings, click on a baneling (or amove) and shift-click two lings in your selection box (at the bottom of the screen) then rehotkey. You can also do this with very good boxing, but it's not recommended.
2) To separate lings and banes, ctrl-shift-click the baneling eggs in your selection box, rehotkey zerglings, then ctrl-click the banelings and hotkey them.
On top of this, make sure you're egg-rallying your reinforcement lings so that you can have them immediately in your control group. This is all really difficult to do, so just practice it constantly and eventually you'll get better at it. If it's something you really want to work on, I highly recommend getting a friend to just do customs with you so you can practice that. I believe there might be a few micro trainers that do that, but it's never going to be as good as playing against a human and practicing macro at the same time.
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