|
On August 14 2014 23:33 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2014 22:31 velvex wrote:On August 14 2014 10:10 Snakeskin wrote: What should control group/strategy be when doing Ling/Bling micro in ZvZ? This was discussed in this thread a couple of weeks ago. What I do: I have zerglings on 2 and banes on 4. I don't add zergling eggs to the control group, I rally to the fight. When I make banes, I add the cocoons to 4. Then I select all army units (bound to the left-of-1 key, the "TLO bind"), control-click the zerglings and bind them to 2. This method may not be perfect, but it saves you both the control-shift-clicks and control-clicking of zergling eggs. I disagree with this method, but I suppose it works nonetheless. The other more standard method is binding everything to your hotkey and deselecting all banelings from your hotkey group by ctrl + shift + clicking the baneling eggs and then rebinding the zerglings (+ zergling eggs) to your hotkey. Then just ctrl + click or double-click to select all banelings and rehotkey them. I'm curious, why do you disagree? The method you describe is what I did before, and the control-shift-click made it very uncomfortable, and thus I abandoned it. The all army key is just too good for selecting all of a specific unit type, it saves so many key presses overall.
|
On August 14 2014 22:10 Manch1ld wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2014 09:01 TokyoGirl wrote: The only bad habit with injecting is using backspace to cycle through hatcheries afaik. Camera hotkeys + boxing requires the least amount of clicks while also preventing queens from running around.
If you are new you shouldnt worry about it so much. As long as you spend your larva and can maintain your inject queens below 50 energy for the entire game then you are good. Why is the backspace method a "bad habit"? It's the inject method I use currently, O_o So I would really like to know the reason behind this labelling.
I use the backspace method still, and it is bad because in lategame it delays some injects due to queuing behavior of the AI (a queen near one hatch might have already been sent to inject a distant hatch; queens in general are walking around and thus not staying next to hatcheries) and it is especially bad if you have a very far away base (e.g. in another main of deadwing), where after a few rounds of backspace-spam you end up with 3-4 queens trudging across the map. These problems can be mitigated if you know about them and learn to recognize them, but it's not optimal.
I still use it because I can queue up 6+ injects in under a second. If you're trying to handle lategame army positioning and harass, sometimes you barely have that one second to spare on injects. And late or haphazard injects are better than none.
|
how do i beat turtle mech if i went 1-1 roach and they already have tanks out? also -- how do deal with early zvz aggression?
|
United States4883 Posts
On August 15 2014 02:39 velvex wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2014 23:33 SC2John wrote:On August 14 2014 22:31 velvex wrote:On August 14 2014 10:10 Snakeskin wrote: What should control group/strategy be when doing Ling/Bling micro in ZvZ? This was discussed in this thread a couple of weeks ago. What I do: I have zerglings on 2 and banes on 4. I don't add zergling eggs to the control group, I rally to the fight. When I make banes, I add the cocoons to 4. Then I select all army units (bound to the left-of-1 key, the "TLO bind"), control-click the zerglings and bind them to 2. This method may not be perfect, but it saves you both the control-shift-clicks and control-clicking of zergling eggs. I disagree with this method, but I suppose it works nonetheless. The other more standard method is binding everything to your hotkey and deselecting all banelings from your hotkey group by ctrl + shift + clicking the baneling eggs and then rebinding the zerglings (+ zergling eggs) to your hotkey. Then just ctrl + click or double-click to select all banelings and rehotkey them. I'm curious, why do you disagree? The method you describe is what I did before, and the control-shift-click made it very uncomfortable, and thus I abandoned it. The all army key is just too good for selecting all of a specific unit type, it saves so many key presses overall.
It's literally the same (if not more) actions than just egg-rallying and shift ctrl clicking, but with the added bonus on being a lot messier and causing you to rely on the "select all army" hotkey (which is a terrible terrible key hehe).
I'll run through these just to make sure I'm not getting it wrong. Egg-rallying:
Ctrl click zergling eggs + hotkey + morph banelings + deselect banes + rehotkey lings + select banelings + rehotkey banes.
Your method:
Rally + morph banelings + select banelings + rehotkey banes + select all army + ctrl click lings + rehotkey lings.
Yep, exactly the same number of actions. It might be A LITTLE bit faster due to the fact that you're not egg rallying, but I feel like you should egg-rallying most of the game anyway as Zerg, so it's kind of just an essential skill that everyone should be fast and efficient at. I dunno, I'm not saying it doesn't work or anything, only that it seems a little bit messier to me. But like all things in SC, if it's comfortable and it works for you, DO IT .
On August 15 2014 09:17 uzi88 wrote: how do i beat turtle mech if i went 1-1 roach and they already have tanks out? also -- how do deal with early zvz aggression?
This is a super unspecific question, but I'll do my best. May I present to you, KawaiiRice vs Avilo: http://drop.sc/384821
It's not necessarily the same scenario you talk about, but it's a perfect example of how to beat obnoxious turtle mech (and who better than the master of the most fucking annoying playstyle on earth to show you how it's done). KR just does SH/muta and then adds on a nydus network and vipers to help break down the Terran defenses slowly. Another thing that's very useful is taking bases 5-8 in very aggressive locations (i.e., your opponent's 4th and 5th bases) so that you can mine out their side of the map faster.
As far as early ZvZ aggression goes, this was discussed literally about a page or two ago. Simply put, it's a battle from inject to inject, so keep a close eye on your opponent's natural saturation, his gas count, and when he moves out. Other than that, just make sure you have a good build with solid timings and you'll do pretty decently. I highly recommend this handsome gentlemen's video.
|
Hey guys,
http://ggtracker.com/matches/5329984 I won this game. (For a tournament! YAY WINNING!) But it felt too close. Like when you miss getting hit by a car by centimeters but backflip out of the way, you win and everyone ooos and aaahhhs but it was TOO close.
TL;DR I won, but I felt like I could and should have closed it out MUCH better. My build/timing got totally thrown off by his aggression (I go for Hyun's Roach King 1-1 timing, also used by Rogue in PL) so I was basically winging it and I would REALLY love some feedback on how I did in that regard. I know that against a better opponent that my mistakes would have been punished much harder, so I wanted some help digging those out of my play.
Anyway, I try to look over most of my loss replays if not all of them as much as possible. I was going to skip this one as it is really late at night for me, but my opponent after the game was telling me that he felt the game was SUPER one sided in my favor. I was baffled by this since I felt that his first push was super successful and crippled me severely. I felt like I only managed to win by taking a single REALLY strong engagement outside my third with a full flank, crushing his push which led to my taking out his third/army entirely. Looking back at the replay I basically carried a 30-50 supply lead from here on out with a 2 upgrade lead and a massive economic advantage. I was never really that close to losing. Apparently.
Did I drone up properly after taking out his third? Too much, too little, early/late?
I was kind of scrambling for tech choices and felt totally flustered the rest of the game, I only kept my head in it with the knowledge that I was definitely ahead. I just couldn't tell how much or if it was just tech, just eco, army size, or a combo of those. My infestors/Vipers didn't accomplish much, but what about the timing/idea?
I really need to improve my late game scouting. I got ahead and then was like... uhhh what now? I didn't know how to win because I couldn't scout. Should I just be sacking OLs left and right? I feel like this is one of those "I know this" moments, but it's something I forget and need to remind myself of. Tips?
I know I have more questions, but I needed to post here before I forgot/lost motivation to and I'm getting really sleepy.
I'm tired as hell so this is probably much less coherent than I think it is, so I apologize for that, it's late. I'll edit/follow up tomorrow after I get some sleep. Thanks for your time you wonderful readers of this forum, I love you all.
|
United States4883 Posts
On August 15 2014 17:30 Kommatiazo wrote:Hey guys, http://ggtracker.com/matches/5329984I won this game. (For a tournament! YAY WINNING!) But it felt too close. Like when you miss getting hit by a car by centimeters but backflip out of the way, you win and everyone ooos and aaahhhs but it was TOO close. TL;DR I won, but I felt like I could and should have closed it out MUCH better. My build/timing got totally thrown off by his aggression (I go for Hyun's Roach King 1-1 timing, also used by Rogue in PL) so I was basically winging it and I would REALLY love some feedback on how I did in that regard. I know that against a better opponent that my mistakes would have been punished much harder, so I wanted some help digging those out of my play. Anyway, I try to look over most of my loss replays if not all of them as much as possible. I was going to skip this one as it is really late at night for me, but my opponent after the game was telling me that he felt the game was SUPER one sided in my favor. I was baffled by this since I felt that his first push was super successful and crippled me severely. I felt like I only managed to win by taking a single REALLY strong engagement outside my third with a full flank, crushing his push which led to my taking out his third/army entirely. Looking back at the replay I basically carried a 30-50 supply lead from here on out with a 2 upgrade lead and a massive economic advantage. I was never really that close to losing. Apparently. Did I drone up properly after taking out his third? Too much, too little, early/late? I was kind of scrambling for tech choices and felt totally flustered the rest of the game, I only kept my head in it with the knowledge that I was definitely ahead. I just couldn't tell how much or if it was just tech, just eco, army size, or a combo of those. My infestors/Vipers didn't accomplish much, but what about the timing/idea? I really need to improve my late game scouting. I got ahead and then was like... uhhh what now? I didn't know how to win because I couldn't scout. Should I just be sacking OLs left and right? I feel like this is one of those "I know this" moments, but it's something I forget and need to remind myself of. Tips? I know I have more questions, but I needed to post here before I forgot/lost motivation to and I'm getting really sleepy. I'm tired as hell so this is probably much less coherent than I think it is, so I apologize for that, it's late. I'll edit/follow up tomorrow after I get some sleep. Thanks for your time you wonderful readers of this forum, I love you all.
1) First of all, your first overlord doesn't need to check your natural expansion. Send it straight over to your opponent's base as fast as possible. Likewise, I don't think it's useful to drone scout more than one base. Just scout the far base and let your overlords get info on the other expansion. Again, sending your first overlord directly there should line up with your drone scout cross map pretty nicely.
2) Overlord placement needs to be better. You want one overlord ready to check the main and one overlord spotting the natural expansion for moveouts, etc. You're also wanting to check the buildings that the Terran makes (i.e. factory, reactor, SP, etc.). A good placement for your overlord on this map is behind the mineral line between the natural and the main. Eventually, you also want to get a 3rd overlord to spot for the Terran's 3rd base.
3) No need to pull drones against the reaper. You're literally never going to catch it (unless it walks into the tiny choke next to your spawning pool), so just use the lings to delay the reapers until queens get out and you should be good.
4) 34 overlord (assuming no lost drones). @100% queens -> queen/queen -> overlord
5) 3rd base is a little late. The timing window is 6:15-6:45. It's important that you get it during this time frame, especially with this build, as you really don't have the tools to push back the hellions with a gasless build. The first hellions arrive at 6:30-6:45 on most maps, so if it's later than that, you will just literally never get a 3rd. Furthermore, you need the roach warren a little bit earlier so you can use ~4 roaches to push back the hellions (although might not even be necessary on this map if you just get a spine crawler up and micro the queens well.
6) The correct order of gas is double evos (@150 gas) -> double ups -> lair -> ~4 roaches. And you're going to start your roach warren right about the same time as your lair so that they finish at about the same time. Your overlord scout this game was good; 6:30-7:00 is the magical timing to check for 3rd CC vs 2nd and 3rd rax vs BFH. If you're ever unsure, just throw down a roach warren at 6:30 and make a few roaches before lair.
7) You need to spend your larva better. Make sure that you're making overlords every inject cycle so that you don't get capped hard, and make sure your mineral saturation is good. A trick is making X number of overlords per base at the beginning of every inject cycle (after ~40 supply); do this and you'll never get supply blocked ever again. Seriously, though, literally THE MOST important thing of Zerg is spending all your larva. That should always always be your number one priority.
8) The build this guy did is SUPER all-in. This is why it's helpful to have an overlord behind the mineral line so that you can poke in a little bit later (~7:30) and check on the buildings to see if he did anything strange. Again, if it's ANYTHING other than super standard 3CC (either hellion/banshee or fast 3CC), just make the safety roach warren and you'll be fine. Actually, I think you could probably get away with a normal RW timing and still beat this particular pressure. Either way, If you had shut this pressure down without losing the 3rd hatch, it's like freewin.
9) You were able to come back so well because the build is pretty all-in and also because your opponent has terrible macro. Also, proper saturation is important, and 3-base roach saturation is supposed to be 48 on minerals and 12 on gas (3 full bases of minerals and 4 gases).
10) The way this build is supposed to work is that you do a big roach push at around 10:30, then you take a 4th base + gases at your 3rd, start +2/+2, and just start a hydra den. Then you add on nothing but hydras until you have a healthy number of like 20-25 and play defensively. Then, at the last second, you do a wave or two of roaches, and you're maxed right about the time that 2/2 finishes. The followup to that attack is...eh, but infestors vs bio and vipers vs mech, eventually getting both. In theory, you can ultimately tech up to SH/corruptor, but in reality, that's just not feasible, so roach/hydra is something you kind of have to win with in the mid game.
That's it up util 15:00. Nothing more to talk about, really. Just make sure you're getting the build under control and focusing on the right things at the right times. Here are a couple more scouting notes that I have:
- @3:30 first overlord Scouts for reaper vs marine vs CC first Proxy 2rax
- @6:30-7:00 Scout for 3rd CC vs extra rax/2reactor Starport vs BFH vs fast stim (can confirm this later with other overlord)
- @10:30 overseer at lair completion Scout for bio vs mech General building configurations
|
On August 15 2014 09:54 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2014 02:39 velvex wrote:On August 14 2014 23:33 SC2John wrote:On August 14 2014 22:31 velvex wrote:On August 14 2014 10:10 Snakeskin wrote: What should control group/strategy be when doing Ling/Bling micro in ZvZ? This was discussed in this thread a couple of weeks ago. What I do: I have zerglings on 2 and banes on 4. I don't add zergling eggs to the control group, I rally to the fight. When I make banes, I add the cocoons to 4. Then I select all army units (bound to the left-of-1 key, the "TLO bind"), control-click the zerglings and bind them to 2. This method may not be perfect, but it saves you both the control-shift-clicks and control-clicking of zergling eggs. I disagree with this method, but I suppose it works nonetheless. The other more standard method is binding everything to your hotkey and deselecting all banelings from your hotkey group by ctrl + shift + clicking the baneling eggs and then rebinding the zerglings (+ zergling eggs) to your hotkey. Then just ctrl + click or double-click to select all banelings and rehotkey them. I'm curious, why do you disagree? The method you describe is what I did before, and the control-shift-click made it very uncomfortable, and thus I abandoned it. The all army key is just too good for selecting all of a specific unit type, it saves so many key presses overall. It's literally the same (if not more) actions than just egg-rallying and shift ctrl clicking, but with the added bonus on being a lot messier and causing you to rely on the "select all army" hotkey (which is a terrible terrible key hehe). I'll run through these just to make sure I'm not getting it wrong. Egg-rallying: Ctrl click zergling eggs + hotkey + morph banelings + deselect banes + rehotkey lings + select banelings + rehotkey banes. Your method: Rally + morph banelings + select banelings + rehotkey banes + select all army + ctrl click lings + rehotkey lings. Yep, exactly the same number of actions. It might be A LITTLE bit faster due to the fact that you're not egg rallying, but I feel like you should egg-rallying most of the game anyway as Zerg, so it's kind of just an essential skill that everyone should be fast and efficient at. I dunno, I'm not saying it doesn't work or anything, only that it seems a little bit messier to me. But like all things in SC, if it's comfortable and it works for you, DO IT . Thank you for your answer. I almost always use egg-hotkeying, and usually it's really good, but I have also become a little critical of it in certain situations. I mean, you usually want to turn all larvae into zerglings in these ling/bane fights, and egg-hotkeying everything means you're doing it several times a minute. That might be time you could possibly put to better use. It was also not so much about the number of actions, but how easy they are to execute, and control+shift is really quite slow for me.
But as you said, both methods are totally viable, of course.
|
On August 15 2014 18:10 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2014 17:30 Kommatiazo wrote:Hey guys, http://ggtracker.com/matches/5329984I won this game. (For a tournament! YAY WINNING!) But it felt too close. Like when you miss getting hit by a car by centimeters but backflip out of the way, you win and everyone ooos and aaahhhs but it was TOO close. TL;DR I won, but I felt like I could and should have closed it out MUCH better. My build/timing got totally thrown off by his aggression (I go for Hyun's Roach King 1-1 timing, also used by Rogue in PL) so I was basically winging it and I would REALLY love some feedback on how I did in that regard. I know that against a better opponent that my mistakes would have been punished much harder, so I wanted some help digging those out of my play. Anyway, I try to look over most of my loss replays if not all of them as much as possible. I was going to skip this one as it is really late at night for me, but my opponent after the game was telling me that he felt the game was SUPER one sided in my favor. I was baffled by this since I felt that his first push was super successful and crippled me severely. I felt like I only managed to win by taking a single REALLY strong engagement outside my third with a full flank, crushing his push which led to my taking out his third/army entirely. Looking back at the replay I basically carried a 30-50 supply lead from here on out with a 2 upgrade lead and a massive economic advantage. I was never really that close to losing. Apparently. Did I drone up properly after taking out his third? Too much, too little, early/late? I was kind of scrambling for tech choices and felt totally flustered the rest of the game, I only kept my head in it with the knowledge that I was definitely ahead. I just couldn't tell how much or if it was just tech, just eco, army size, or a combo of those. My infestors/Vipers didn't accomplish much, but what about the timing/idea? I really need to improve my late game scouting. I got ahead and then was like... uhhh what now? I didn't know how to win because I couldn't scout. Should I just be sacking OLs left and right? I feel like this is one of those "I know this" moments, but it's something I forget and need to remind myself of. Tips? I know I have more questions, but I needed to post here before I forgot/lost motivation to and I'm getting really sleepy. I'm tired as hell so this is probably much less coherent than I think it is, so I apologize for that, it's late. I'll edit/follow up tomorrow after I get some sleep. Thanks for your time you wonderful readers of this forum, I love you all. 1) First of all, your first overlord doesn't need to check your natural expansion. Send it straight over to your opponent's base as fast as possible. Likewise, I don't think it's useful to drone scout more than one base. Just scout the far base and let your overlords get info on the other expansion. Again, sending your first overlord directly there should line up with your drone scout cross map pretty nicely. 2) Overlord placement needs to be better. You want one overlord ready to check the main and one overlord spotting the natural expansion for moveouts, etc. You're also wanting to check the buildings that the Terran makes (i.e. factory, reactor, SP, etc.). A good placement for your overlord on this map is behind the mineral line between the natural and the main. Eventually, you also want to get a 3rd overlord to spot for the Terran's 3rd base. 3) No need to pull drones against the reaper. You're literally never going to catch it (unless it walks into the tiny choke next to your spawning pool), so just use the lings to delay the reapers until queens get out and you should be good. 4) 34 overlord (assuming no lost drones). @100% queens -> queen/queen -> overlord 5) 3rd base is a little late. The timing window is 6:15-6:45. It's important that you get it during this time frame, especially with this build, as you really don't have the tools to push back the hellions with a gasless build. The first hellions arrive at 6:30-6:45 on most maps, so if it's later than that, you will just literally never get a 3rd. Furthermore, you need the roach warren a little bit earlier so you can use ~4 roaches to push back the hellions (although might not even be necessary on this map if you just get a spine crawler up and micro the queens well. 6) The correct order of gas is double evos (@150 gas) -> double ups -> lair -> ~4 roaches. And you're going to start your roach warren right about the same time as your lair so that they finish at about the same time. Your overlord scout this game was good; 6:30-7:00 is the magical timing to check for 3rd CC vs 2nd and 3rd rax vs BFH. If you're ever unsure, just throw down a roach warren at 6:30 and make a few roaches before lair. 7) You need to spend your larva better. Make sure that you're making overlords every inject cycle so that you don't get capped hard, and make sure your mineral saturation is good. A trick is making X number of overlords per base at the beginning of every inject cycle (after ~40 supply); do this and you'll never get supply blocked ever again. Seriously, though, literally THE MOST important thing of Zerg is spending all your larva. That should always always be your number one priority. 8) The build this guy did is SUPER all-in. This is why it's helpful to have an overlord behind the mineral line so that you can poke in a little bit later (~7:30) and check on the buildings to see if he did anything strange. Again, if it's ANYTHING other than super standard 3CC (either hellion/banshee or fast 3CC), just make the safety roach warren and you'll be fine. Actually, I think you could probably get away with a normal RW timing and still beat this particular pressure. Either way, If you had shut this pressure down without losing the 3rd hatch, it's like freewin. 9) You were able to come back so well because the build is pretty all-in and also because your opponent has terrible macro. Also, proper saturation is important, and 3-base roach saturation is supposed to be 48 on minerals and 12 on gas (3 full bases of minerals and 4 gases). 10) The way this build is supposed to work is that you do a big roach push at around 10:30, then you take a 4th base + gases at your 3rd, start +2/+2, and just start a hydra den. Then you add on nothing but hydras until you have a healthy number of like 20-25 and play defensively. Then, at the last second, you do a wave or two of roaches, and you're maxed right about the time that 2/2 finishes. The followup to that attack is...eh, but infestors vs bio and vipers vs mech, eventually getting both. In theory, you can ultimately tech up to SH/corruptor, but in reality, that's just not feasible, so roach/hydra is something you kind of have to win with in the mid game. That's it up until 15:00. Nothing more to talk about, really. Just make sure you're getting the build under control and focusing on the right things at the right times. Here are a couple more scouting notes that I have: - @3:30 first overlord Scouts for reaper vs marine vs CC first Proxy 2rax - @6:30-7:00 Scout for 3rd CC vs extra rax/2reactor Starport vs BFH vs fast stim (can confirm this later with other overlord) - @10:30 overseer at lair completion Scout for bio vs mech General building configurations
This is why you're the man SC2John. Such a badass.
Anyway, the build I was following (blindly) up until now is this one: + Show Spoiler +. I've mostly been trying to get my injects better, larvae usage, scouting etc good without worrying too much about the meta and what I could improve on strategically. I've made it back to high plat, which is where I left off with Protoss, but I think I've hit a wall blindly following the build, and your post is exactly what I needed.
The gas timings and RW timings in Fenner's video are different from what you posted. Is his timing later than it could be? I've started to feel like (especially facing these kinds of conc shell/hellbat pushes) that a slightly earlier warren is necessary, I'm going to start adding that into the build I think. Seems like terrans these days are wanting to be more aggressive and this build cam from a much more passive T meta.
In the scenario that I take damage early but survive to the midgame, and cannot make my timing work because I took damage: how do you play out the Roach/Hydra midgame? Do I skip 2/2 and get hydras? Do I skip the hydras and 2/2? Then follow up with what I skipped to try and catch up? I know it's not the best style to play if I'm trying to play catch up in the midgame since that hurts your lategame where this comp falls apart without a lead. I just don't think I should Idra GG out after I take early damage right?
|
United States4883 Posts
On August 16 2014 05:15 Kommatiazo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2014 18:10 SC2John wrote:On August 15 2014 17:30 Kommatiazo wrote:Hey guys, http://ggtracker.com/matches/5329984I won this game. (For a tournament! YAY WINNING!) But it felt too close. Like when you miss getting hit by a car by centimeters but backflip out of the way, you win and everyone ooos and aaahhhs but it was TOO close. TL;DR I won, but I felt like I could and should have closed it out MUCH better. My build/timing got totally thrown off by his aggression (I go for Hyun's Roach King 1-1 timing, also used by Rogue in PL) so I was basically winging it and I would REALLY love some feedback on how I did in that regard. I know that against a better opponent that my mistakes would have been punished much harder, so I wanted some help digging those out of my play. Anyway, I try to look over most of my loss replays if not all of them as much as possible. I was going to skip this one as it is really late at night for me, but my opponent after the game was telling me that he felt the game was SUPER one sided in my favor. I was baffled by this since I felt that his first push was super successful and crippled me severely. I felt like I only managed to win by taking a single REALLY strong engagement outside my third with a full flank, crushing his push which led to my taking out his third/army entirely. Looking back at the replay I basically carried a 30-50 supply lead from here on out with a 2 upgrade lead and a massive economic advantage. I was never really that close to losing. Apparently. Did I drone up properly after taking out his third? Too much, too little, early/late? I was kind of scrambling for tech choices and felt totally flustered the rest of the game, I only kept my head in it with the knowledge that I was definitely ahead. I just couldn't tell how much or if it was just tech, just eco, army size, or a combo of those. My infestors/Vipers didn't accomplish much, but what about the timing/idea? I really need to improve my late game scouting. I got ahead and then was like... uhhh what now? I didn't know how to win because I couldn't scout. Should I just be sacking OLs left and right? I feel like this is one of those "I know this" moments, but it's something I forget and need to remind myself of. Tips? I know I have more questions, but I needed to post here before I forgot/lost motivation to and I'm getting really sleepy. I'm tired as hell so this is probably much less coherent than I think it is, so I apologize for that, it's late. I'll edit/follow up tomorrow after I get some sleep. Thanks for your time you wonderful readers of this forum, I love you all. 1) First of all, your first overlord doesn't need to check your natural expansion. Send it straight over to your opponent's base as fast as possible. Likewise, I don't think it's useful to drone scout more than one base. Just scout the far base and let your overlords get info on the other expansion. Again, sending your first overlord directly there should line up with your drone scout cross map pretty nicely. 2) Overlord placement needs to be better. You want one overlord ready to check the main and one overlord spotting the natural expansion for moveouts, etc. You're also wanting to check the buildings that the Terran makes (i.e. factory, reactor, SP, etc.). A good placement for your overlord on this map is behind the mineral line between the natural and the main. Eventually, you also want to get a 3rd overlord to spot for the Terran's 3rd base. 3) No need to pull drones against the reaper. You're literally never going to catch it (unless it walks into the tiny choke next to your spawning pool), so just use the lings to delay the reapers until queens get out and you should be good. 4) 34 overlord (assuming no lost drones). @100% queens -> queen/queen -> overlord 5) 3rd base is a little late. The timing window is 6:15-6:45. It's important that you get it during this time frame, especially with this build, as you really don't have the tools to push back the hellions with a gasless build. The first hellions arrive at 6:30-6:45 on most maps, so if it's later than that, you will just literally never get a 3rd. Furthermore, you need the roach warren a little bit earlier so you can use ~4 roaches to push back the hellions (although might not even be necessary on this map if you just get a spine crawler up and micro the queens well. 6) The correct order of gas is double evos (@150 gas) -> double ups -> lair -> ~4 roaches. And you're going to start your roach warren right about the same time as your lair so that they finish at about the same time. Your overlord scout this game was good; 6:30-7:00 is the magical timing to check for 3rd CC vs 2nd and 3rd rax vs BFH. If you're ever unsure, just throw down a roach warren at 6:30 and make a few roaches before lair. 7) You need to spend your larva better. Make sure that you're making overlords every inject cycle so that you don't get capped hard, and make sure your mineral saturation is good. A trick is making X number of overlords per base at the beginning of every inject cycle (after ~40 supply); do this and you'll never get supply blocked ever again. Seriously, though, literally THE MOST important thing of Zerg is spending all your larva. That should always always be your number one priority. 8) The build this guy did is SUPER all-in. This is why it's helpful to have an overlord behind the mineral line so that you can poke in a little bit later (~7:30) and check on the buildings to see if he did anything strange. Again, if it's ANYTHING other than super standard 3CC (either hellion/banshee or fast 3CC), just make the safety roach warren and you'll be fine. Actually, I think you could probably get away with a normal RW timing and still beat this particular pressure. Either way, If you had shut this pressure down without losing the 3rd hatch, it's like freewin. 9) You were able to come back so well because the build is pretty all-in and also because your opponent has terrible macro. Also, proper saturation is important, and 3-base roach saturation is supposed to be 48 on minerals and 12 on gas (3 full bases of minerals and 4 gases). 10) The way this build is supposed to work is that you do a big roach push at around 10:30, then you take a 4th base + gases at your 3rd, start +2/+2, and just start a hydra den. Then you add on nothing but hydras until you have a healthy number of like 20-25 and play defensively. Then, at the last second, you do a wave or two of roaches, and you're maxed right about the time that 2/2 finishes. The followup to that attack is...eh, but infestors vs bio and vipers vs mech, eventually getting both. In theory, you can ultimately tech up to SH/corruptor, but in reality, that's just not feasible, so roach/hydra is something you kind of have to win with in the mid game. That's it up until 15:00. Nothing more to talk about, really. Just make sure you're getting the build under control and focusing on the right things at the right times. Here are a couple more scouting notes that I have: - @3:30 first overlord Scouts for reaper vs marine vs CC first Proxy 2rax - @6:30-7:00 Scout for 3rd CC vs extra rax/2reactor Starport vs BFH vs fast stim (can confirm this later with other overlord) - @10:30 overseer at lair completion Scout for bio vs mech General building configurations This is why you're the man SC2John. Such a badass. Anyway, the build I was following (blindly) up until now is this one: + Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usOXU7asQGY . I've mostly been trying to get my injects better, larvae usage, scouting etc good without worrying too much about the meta and what I could improve on strategically. I've made it back to high plat, which is where I left off with Protoss, but I think I've hit a wall blindly following the build, and your post is exactly what I needed. The gas timings and RW timings in Fenner's video are different from what you posted. Is his timing later than it could be? I've started to feel like (especially facing these kinds of conc shell/hellbat pushes) that a slightly earlier warren is necessary, I'm going to start adding that into the build I think. Seems like terrans these days are wanting to be more aggressive and this build cam from a much more passive T meta. In the scenario that I take damage early but survive to the midgame, and cannot make my timing work because I took damage: how do you play out the Roach/Hydra midgame? Do I skip 2/2 and get hydras? Do I skip the hydras and 2/2? Then follow up with what I skipped to try and catch up? I know it's not the best style to play if I'm trying to play catch up in the midgame since that hurts your lategame where this comp falls apart without a lead. I just don't think I should Idra GG out after I take early damage right?
Oh, you're right lol. I actually haven't done that build for a long time, but looking back at my notes it is lair -> double evos. My bad, sorry about that. In the video, he says "sneak in the 3rd base"...if your opponent goes reaper/hellion, just cut drones and take it at like 6:30 to make sure you don't get stuck never being able to plop it down. I think it's actually really important to get it down during this time.
As far as the RW timing, if you're making it with lair (@6:45 according to my notes), then it's plenty on time to deal with any early hellbat shenanigans, etc. Again, though, being aware of it by scouting around at 6:00-7:00 with an overlord will help immensely in dealing with it.
This build is designed as a timing attack, which means you necessarily need a lead in the early/mid game. If you fall behind at some point before you can really get going, it's probably best to take the safe route and transition into muta/ling/bling from behind since that composition has better longevity (or you can just all-in anyway, which works a fair amount of the time because Terran players below masters are terrible).
|
Ive recently come back to sc2 and meta game has changed a bit. struggling against bio mine style and blink and 4 gate into 8 gate all ins. would like an updated strat guide or some highlights
|
I have two questions.
First.
I have serious troubles ZvP. If the Protoss goes basically anything that is not phoenix into colossus or just 3 base turtle to colossus I'm completely fine, I win comfortably.
I simply cannot handle colossus. I've tried the 12 min hive into vipers but get wrecked by timing attacks before that, I try the mass roach/hydra but can't seem to get a good engagement, I've tried SH and I've tried mutas, I've tried infestors and I've tried ultra rushes. The replays confuse me, I seem to be in a good position supply-wise and upgrade-wise however I always get myself into unfavorable engagements and just fall apart.
So, dealing with colossus, is it all about the engagement and the surround or is there a magic unit composition similar to banelings vs bio or hydra ling vs blink stalkers?
Second, I feel like my play looks... scared. I seem to be getting more units than I need and getting my third and my gases at the nat too late. Given that the protoss seems to have standard gas timings, when is a good time to get the third? Before or after queens at main/nat? Do i get any gas before? Does this decision change with forge expo vs gate expo? Any sign I need to see from protoss to know when to expand and drone safely?
EDIT: If it's of any interest, I'm around mid master level, 65% vT, 55% vZ, 42% vP.
|
On August 16 2014 22:43 Amazonic wrote: I have two questions.
First.
I have serious troubles ZvP. If the Protoss goes basically anything that is not phoenix into colossus or just 3 base turtle to colossus I'm completely fine, I win comfortably.
I simply cannot handle colossus. I've tried the 12 min hive into vipers but get wrecked by timing attacks before that, I try the mass roach/hydra but can't seem to get a good engagement, I've tried SH and I've tried mutas, I've tried infestors and I've tried ultra rushes. The replays confuse me, I seem to be in a good position supply-wise and upgrade-wise however I always get myself into unfavorable engagements and just fall apart.
So, dealing with colossus, is it all about the engagement and the surround or is there a magic unit composition similar to banelings vs bio or hydra ling vs blink stalkers?
Second, I feel like my play looks... scared. I seem to be getting more units than I need and getting my third and my gases at the nat too late. Given that the protoss seems to have standard gas timings, when is a good time to get the third? Before or after queens at main/nat? Do i get any gas before? Does this decision change with forge expo vs gate expo? Any sign I need to see from protoss to know when to expand and drone safely?
EDIT: If it's of any interest, I'm around mid master level, 65% vT, 55% vZ, 42% vP.
Can you add some replays of those situations? For me reasonable quick hive works well most of the time, and even if I mess up I can often overrun them with roach hydra after killing some collosus. ZvP is a lot about scouting tho, and realise if he's going mass gates/blink play of 3 base or if he's teching to collosus or air or templar. Basically you want to drop your infestation pit around the time you think the opponent is dropping his collosus bay.
What I do is basically try to make as many drones as possible and then a bunch of lings while my hydra den is finishing up and then a bunch of hydras and keep making them if I face an attack or else drop infestation pit after defending the attack / while pressuring. So I basically go blind infestation pit asap to get the hive up in time.
I've tried finding some replays but it's hard to find any "standard" games, often it's dealing with some kind of pressure or attack/all in before you get into the hive play, but here's two replays that kind of shows my play vs collosus atleast.
vs 2base robo warp prism into collosus - Taking some dmg vs 2base warp prism attack then going into ling hydra vs 2 base, scouting collosus bay too late so taking some fights with roach hydra then getting vipers.
vs phoenix into collosus - This is the closest I could find to what you're describing. Seeing phoenix opening into robo means you can drone a lot and then go into ling hydra. My infestation pit is once again too late but you can often buy some time with ling hydra, or just kill him if he doesn't have great control because his army is much smaller than yours.
Edit: On to your second point:
Vs FFE or nexus first: You can always go gasless 3 hatch, taking the third between 19-23 supply if going 15pool, or a 3hatch before pool/hatch pool hatch build.
Vs gate expand: There are different ways to play, and you'll have to find something you're comfortable with. Either drop a gas as soon as you realise it's gate expand or go hatch gas pool and take third around 5-5:30 I think. You have to make sure you find the pylon with lings if you're facing 3/4gate with this style.
You can also go gasless 3 hatch and basically keep making slowlings and queens/spines if you're facing early aggression. I think this can be pretty tough to play properly and I haven't done it except on deadwing where you only have one entrance to all your bases.
You can also drop a ~4:40 gas and like a 5-5:30 roach warren if you're facing 4gate and otherwise just get speed then keep scouting.
For droning: If you don't see anything that makes you think an attack is coming, then just keep droning. Vs gate expand you'll see extra gates dropped at ~5 min if he's going to pressure. Vs FFE you can basically drone to 50-55 freely and just be aware if he's not taking gases at natural and dropping like 6 more gates. Otherwise you can basically just get 2 gases at 6 min, get lair and 2 extra gases, then ling speed and drone to 55.
Vs gate expand you'll have to scout more and maybe stop droning earlier (at like 30-35 vs 4gate, around 45 vs super quick immo zealot etc).
Edit 2: Added ggtracker links
|
On August 17 2014 00:29 Zheryn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2014 22:43 Amazonic wrote: I have two questions.
First.
I have serious troubles ZvP. If the Protoss goes basically anything that is not phoenix into colossus or just 3 base turtle to colossus I'm completely fine, I win comfortably.
I simply cannot handle colossus. I've tried the 12 min hive into vipers but get wrecked by timing attacks before that, I try the mass roach/hydra but can't seem to get a good engagement, I've tried SH and I've tried mutas, I've tried infestors and I've tried ultra rushes. The replays confuse me, I seem to be in a good position supply-wise and upgrade-wise however I always get myself into unfavorable engagements and just fall apart.
So, dealing with colossus, is it all about the engagement and the surround or is there a magic unit composition similar to banelings vs bio or hydra ling vs blink stalkers?
Second, I feel like my play looks... scared. I seem to be getting more units than I need and getting my third and my gases at the nat too late. Given that the protoss seems to have standard gas timings, when is a good time to get the third? Before or after queens at main/nat? Do i get any gas before? Does this decision change with forge expo vs gate expo? Any sign I need to see from protoss to know when to expand and drone safely?
EDIT: If it's of any interest, I'm around mid master level, 65% vT, 55% vZ, 42% vP. Can you add some replays of those situations? For me reasonable quick hive works well most of the time, and even if I mess up I can often overrun them with roach hydra after killing some collosus. ZvP is a lot about scouting tho, and realise if he's going mass gates/blink play of 3 base or if he's teching to collosus or air or templar. Basically you want to drop your infestation pit around the time you think the opponent is dropping his collosus bay. What I do is basically try to make as many drones as possible and then a bunch of lings while my hydra den is finishing up and then a bunch of hydras and keep making them if I face an attack or else drop infestation pit after defending the attack / while pressuring. So I basically go blind infestation pit asap to get the hive up in time. I've tried finding some replays but it's hard to find any "standard" games, often it's dealing with some kind of pressure or attack/all in before you get into the hive play, but here's two replays that kind of shows my play vs collosus atleast. vs 2base robo warp prism into collosus - Taking some dmg vs 2base warp prism attack then going into ling hydra vs 2 base, scouting collosus bay too late so taking some fights with roach hydra then getting vipers. vs phoenix into collosus - This is the closest I could find to what you're describing. Seeing phoenix opening into robo means you can drone a lot and then go into ling hydra. My infestation pit is once again too late but you can often buy some time with ling hydra, or just kill him if he doesn't have great control because his army is much smaller than yours. Edit: On to your second point: Vs FFE or nexus first: You can always go gasless 3 hatch, taking the third between 19-23 supply if going 15pool, or a 3hatch before pool/hatch pool hatch build. Vs gate expand: There are different ways to play, and you'll have to find something you're comfortable with. Either drop a gas as soon as you realise it's gate expand or go hatch gas pool and take third around 5-5:30 I think. You have to make sure you find the pylon with lings if you're facing 3/4gate with this style. You can also go gasless 3 hatch and basically keep making slowlings and queens/spines if you're facing early aggression. I think this can be pretty tough to play properly and I haven't done it except on deadwing where you only have one entrance to all your bases. You can also drop a ~4:40 gas and like a 5-5:30 roach warren if you're facing 4gate and otherwise just get speed then keep scouting. For droning: If you don't see anything that makes you think an attack is coming, then just keep droning. Vs gate expand you'll see extra gates dropped at ~5 min if he's going to pressure. Vs FFE you can basically drone to 50-55 freely and just be aware if he's not taking gases at natural and dropping like 6 more gates. Otherwise you can basically just get 2 gases at 6 min, get lair and 2 extra gases, then ling speed and drone to 55. Vs gate expand you'll have to scout more and maybe stop droning earlier (at like 30-35 vs 4gate, around 45 vs super quick immo zealot etc). Edit 2: Added ggtracker links
I looked through the recent replays and couldn't really find anything representative, been a _lot_ of cannon rushes for me lately.
Very helpful links and timings, however, I look through them and mess about a bit with the timings! Tack :D
|
My ZvT win rate has plummeted now that the widow mine has a huge splash radius again. I find that I have no trouble gaining a huge lead, getting up to 4-5 bases while the Terran is on 3; maxing out on 2/2 ling bane with about 30 mutas, and trading efficiently on creep all throughout the midgame. However, I am unable to deny the Terran from taking a 4th. All he needs is a handful of mines -- and a small fraction of his bio army covering them -- where the 4th is going to be, and I can't even get close without losing half my army for nothing. It's especially difficult to deny the 4th if the Terran is halfway decent and drops me all over the place while taking it.
Once he establishes a 4th, it's all downhill, and no matter how big my lead is, it is inevitable that I will eventually get chipped away by the endless parade of bio and mines that set up camp closer and closer to my bases as he clears out my creep, coupled with drops in the background of he is good. Even once my 3-3 and adrenal glands are finished, it still doesn't matter.
I find that even with good flanks and attempts on sending "packets of lings" in to detonate mines, I just can't avoid losing massive amounts of lings and banes to just a few widow mines, and there's always more than enough marines leftover to prevent my muta flock from cleaning up. Even if I'm lucky enough to detonate a few mines before engaging, there are always many many more mines armed and ready. It seems that it only takes a couple good money shots on some banelings in order to completely turn the tide of a maxed out battle.
I'm debating trying things like mixing roaches into my ground army to tank mine shots, or making a bunch of extra speed overlords or overseers to send in before my army, but I have read that things like that are not optimal, and delay mutas too much. At this point, I'm just desperate enough to try anything to avoid losing huge leads to widow mines. Looking at army value and workers active graphs after my ZvT games is depressing.
|
On August 19 2014 03:13 Frankie Teardrop wrote: My ZvT win rate has plummeted now that the widow mine has a huge splash radius again. I find that I have no trouble gaining a huge lead, getting up to 4-5 bases while the Terran is on 3; maxing out on 2/2 ling bane with about 30 mutas, and trading efficiently on creep all throughout the midgame. However, I am unable to deny the Terran from taking a 4th. All he needs is a handful of mines -- and a small fraction of his bio army covering them -- where the 4th is going to be, and I can't even get close without losing half my army for nothing. It's especially difficult to deny the 4th if the Terran is halfway decent and drops me all over the place while taking it.
Once he establishes a 4th, it's all downhill, and no matter how big my lead is, it is inevitable that I will eventually get chipped away by the endless parade of bio and mines that set up camp closer and closer to my bases as he clears out my creep, coupled with drops in the background of he is good. Even once my 3-3 and adrenal glands are finished, it still doesn't matter.
I find that even with good flanks and attempts on sending "packets of lings" in to detonate mines, I just can't avoid losing massive amounts of lings and banes to just a few widow mines, and there's always more than enough marines leftover to prevent my muta flock from cleaning up. Even if I'm lucky enough to detonate a few mines before engaging, there are always many many more mines armed and ready. It seems that it only takes a couple good money shots on some banelings in order to completely turn the tide of a maxed out battle.
I'm debating trying things like mixing roaches into my ground army to tank mine shots, or making a bunch of extra speed overlords or overseers to send in before my army, but I have read that things like that are not optimal, and delay mutas too much. At this point, I'm just desperate enough to try anything to avoid losing huge leads to widow mines. Looking at army value and workers active graphs after my ZvT games is depressing.
i feel with you. imo the old style with mass muta isnt really viable anymore with buffed mines and buffed thor (thor autoshooting air even 1 shot helps a lot). i am opening 4 queen gasless into gasless 5:30ish 3rd base with massive creepspread and add 3 more queens + 2x gas around 50 supply with another 2 gases added 1 minute later (dont have the exact timings done yet).
after that +1 +1 range, lair, RW + banenest + lingspeed and stay on 4 gas while mass droning + add 2-3 spores if you expect banshees (spores are helping later on anyway). once lair finishes overseer, ovispeed, IP, banespeed and +2 +2 + add a round of roaches (8-10) and take a fast 4th base while defending with roach ling bane + your 7 queens and maybe even 3 spines at your 3rd/4th depending on map.
once you are safe get 5-8th gas, add 8-12 SHs, hive, 5-6 infestors and +1 melee +3 carapace and adrenaline glands or even 3rd evo and spire for more upgrades. (get 8-10 spores and spines in key locations while getting all your gas units/upgrades and spread your infestors and SHs behind your spore/spines to def them.
lategame is something like 60-70 drones, 5-8 queens, 8-12 SHs, 6-8 infestors, 20 mutas and ling bane overseer. imo ultras arent worth it (neither cost nor supply since they really suck offcreep in an even game) except closing games when you are very ahead.
basically you want to get a cost efficient defense with spines + SHs + infestors while still having the capability to harrass, deny bases, do runbys, snipe drops with your mobile ling bane muta overseer force (slowly adding up to 10 overseers in really lategame ZvT can be worth it to block their main ramp and always have vision around the map) + your queens help keep up the creepspread. combined with nydusplay etc. this style is a lot more fun to me than being on the edge of dying all game long with ling bane muta into semigood ultras and hoping for good trades on creep.
|
Hello! As it happens often, I'm pretty bored with the same opening in ZvT (I already changed my ZvZ and ZvP and it's a lot more fun to play now). When yesterday I played few customs with my friend, I did few times 2-base muta on the fly (I had no build) and it felt pretty fun, definitely more than standard. So, can anyone give me an actual build for it? Tried to find it by myself and found one, TLO's version, but maybe there's others?
|
United States4883 Posts
On August 19 2014 05:31 Alchemik wrote: Hello! As it happens often, I'm pretty bored with the same opening in ZvT (I already changed my ZvZ and ZvP and it's a lot more fun to play now). When yesterday I played few customs with my friend, I did few times 2-base muta on the fly (I had no build) and it felt pretty fun, definitely more than standard. So, can anyone give me an actual build for it? Tried to find it by myself and found one, TLO's version, but maybe there's others?
There are a few different gas timings and ways to get there, but I think probably the best way is probably gasless 4-queen opening into either double gas at 5:00 or single gas @100% pool. Then you basically just go zergling speed first, then lair (interchangeable) and add on your extra gases and a baneling nest as lair is morphing. Once you have 2-base saturation, you can take your third with a swell of lings and queens and it's pretty safe from hellion/banshee due to the fast mutas.
The biggest drawback to this style is that it gets upgrades VERY late and you also run into a bit of a larva deficit. So, as a result, you need to make sure you do a fair amount of damage with your first mutas and trade very cost effectively with your lings until you have 4 hatches and +1/+1 done.
On August 19 2014 03:13 Frankie Teardrop wrote: My ZvT win rate has plummeted now that the widow mine has a huge splash radius again. I find that I have no trouble gaining a huge lead, getting up to 4-5 bases while the Terran is on 3; maxing out on 2/2 ling bane with about 30 mutas, and trading efficiently on creep all throughout the midgame. However, I am unable to deny the Terran from taking a 4th. All he needs is a handful of mines -- and a small fraction of his bio army covering them -- where the 4th is going to be, and I can't even get close without losing half my army for nothing. It's especially difficult to deny the 4th if the Terran is halfway decent and drops me all over the place while taking it.
Once he establishes a 4th, it's all downhill, and no matter how big my lead is, it is inevitable that I will eventually get chipped away by the endless parade of bio and mines that set up camp closer and closer to my bases as he clears out my creep, coupled with drops in the background of he is good. Even once my 3-3 and adrenal glands are finished, it still doesn't matter.
I find that even with good flanks and attempts on sending "packets of lings" in to detonate mines, I just can't avoid losing massive amounts of lings and banes to just a few widow mines, and there's always more than enough marines leftover to prevent my muta flock from cleaning up. Even if I'm lucky enough to detonate a few mines before engaging, there are always many many more mines armed and ready. It seems that it only takes a couple good money shots on some banelings in order to completely turn the tide of a maxed out battle.
I'm debating trying things like mixing roaches into my ground army to tank mine shots, or making a bunch of extra speed overlords or overseers to send in before my army, but I have read that things like that are not optimal, and delay mutas too much. At this point, I'm just desperate enough to try anything to avoid losing huge leads to widow mines. Looking at army value and workers active graphs after my ZvT games is depressing.
I'm not fully sure of that strategy Descendos posted...but I know Snute has been doing similarly, so it's probably not bad.
As far as standard play, I have a good feeling it probably has to do with your execution. You say you have an easy time getting up to 4 bases and +2/+2...even getting to hive safely, but somehow you can't win. There is an inherent flaw with this somehow.
First thing, watching a replay is always going to be easier since I can only guess as to what your real problem is and give answers in fairly broad strokes. However, I will attempt it nonetheless:
Perhaps the biggest thing is mutalisk positioning. Against these sorts of rally pushes that Terrans do, you always want to place your mutas in the line of reinforcement. This causes the Terran to have to group together 2-3 rounds of units before pushing out for fear of getting their reinforcements picked off for free. As a result, this creates two islands of Terran units (one at your front and one at home) and makes it a lot easier to break the Terran army that's poking your front. If you add minor counterattacks, either in the form of nyduses (still viable, I swear to god), ling runbys, muta harassment, or even overlord drops, this stretches the Terran really thin on all fronts and makes him easier to break in several different locations. To defend at home, just make sure you have spines and spores at all your bases as well as a small hotkey of ling/bane to fend off drops (although, again drops are a good thing since they take away from the power of the main army that's pressuring your front).
If you have any questions or anything, let me know. As always, replays say so much more, but hopefully you can get something out of this.
|
On August 19 2014 05:59 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2014 05:31 Alchemik wrote: Hello! As it happens often, I'm pretty bored with the same opening in ZvT (I already changed my ZvZ and ZvP and it's a lot more fun to play now). When yesterday I played few customs with my friend, I did few times 2-base muta on the fly (I had no build) and it felt pretty fun, definitely more than standard. So, can anyone give me an actual build for it? Tried to find it by myself and found one, TLO's version, but maybe there's others? There are a few different gas timings and ways to get there, but I think probably the best way is probably gasless 4-queen opening into either double gas at 5:00 or single gas @100% pool. Then you basically just go zergling speed first, then lair (interchangeable) and add on your extra gases and a baneling nest as lair is morphing. Once you have 2-base saturation, you can take your third with a swell of lings and queens and it's pretty safe from hellion/banshee due to the fast mutas. The biggest drawback to this style is that it gets upgrades VERY late and you also run into a bit of a larva deficit. So, as a result, you need to make sure you do a fair amount of damage with your first mutas and trade very cost effectively with your lings until you have 4 hatches and +1/+1 done. Thank you! When do you get your upgrades? Right after first mutas, right?
|
Hi guys,
I am a gold zerg player, and am having troubles ZvZ. I normally play a macro game and when I can get to roaches I totally crush the opponent. But many zerg shave this ling bling foreplay, with which I struggle with. There are 3 problems for me:
1 see it coming. It literally takes 20 seconds to stop droning and get a fierce zergling army. I still need to much time to look at the macro in my base. Any tips?
2 how to deal with banelings. I know that you should try to keep 2 groups of banelings together, and let 1 or 2 lings try to detonate their blings, but it is hard to pull of micro wise. How can I practice this correctly? I can't find any good guide or method on this.
3 how to harass with my lings? If I get into his base with ~8 lings, there seems not a lot I can actually do (except for getting their queens, and just send them in the mineral line...)
Here is a replay of me vs some gold guy. I won, but that's because he stopped harassing http://ggtracker.com/matches/5345847
|
United States4883 Posts
On August 20 2014 04:22 Geert wrote:Hi guys, I am a gold zerg player, and am having troubles ZvZ. I normally play a macro game and when I can get to roaches I totally crush the opponent. But many zerg shave this ling bling foreplay, with which I struggle with. There are 3 problems for me: 1 see it coming. It literally takes 20 seconds to stop droning and get a fierce zergling army. I still need to much time to look at the macro in my base. Any tips? 2 how to deal with banelings. I know that you should try to keep 2 groups of banelings together, and let 1 or 2 lings try to detonate their blings, but it is hard to pull of micro wise. How can I practice this correctly? I can't find any good guide or method on this. 3 how to harass with my lings? If I get into his base with ~8 lings, there seems not a lot I can actually do (except for getting their queens, and just send them in the mineral line...) Here is a replay of me vs some gold guy. I won, but that's because he stopped harassing http://ggtracker.com/matches/5345847
1) On August 01 2014 02:36 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2014 00:21 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: So I guess drone scouting is a bad idea. Is there a good way to learn more about hatch timings and overlord placement/scouting so I can actually see shit coming? I usually don't realize I'm getting all-in'd until I see a shit ton of lings running out of his base and by then it's basically too late Even the best players have trouble with that kind of play. The first requirement for such a zergling allin is to get a reasonably early speed. Someone going gasless with 4queens will obviously not speedling or speedling/baneling allin you. Your main tell is if someone is pooling zerglings and the best way to confirm that is to have your first 2-6zerglings around his base and scout into his base for the time when the first and second injects are finishing. Another way to get a chance to scout these kinds of things is if you have an overlord behind the natural mineral line (which is mapdependend) and watch his saturation. If it doesn't go up, he is about to get aggressive. Though the conclusion exclusively works like I described! A higher saturation can also just mean that he transfered a lot, in the nastiest cases even to fake you into thinking he is droning. Only a low saturation is a tell (because overmining the main is just bad, even if it fakes you out). But it's basically a battle from inject to inject. He can start pooling lings on the first, second, third or even fourth inject, all depending on the actual builds.
Just have a good build and know what you're scouting with your first overlord (drone scout if you must). If you have a well-timed baneling nest and/or spine + queens, you'll be in solid shape, you just need to make sure you're being efficient in the early game. See IMBAbuilds.com for some example builds or look up Lowko's gasless ZvZ build order on Youtube.
2) On July 12 2014 12:21 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2014 09:15 Mozdk wrote: ZvZ platinum league.
In speedling + baneling fights, how should I hotkey? What do the pros do? 1 or 2 control groups. Or maybe one for speedlings and banelings not hotkey'ed? Advice I got from PiG: 1. Morph your banelings in a line (just get good at this positioning). 2. CTRL + click the lings in the selection box below OR CTRL + shift + click the baneling eggs in the selection box below. This deselects the morphing banelings and gives you only lings. 3. Rehotkey the lings. 4. CTRL + click or double-click the banelings and rehotkey them to a separate hotkey. Once you do this enough, you can minimize the amount of time spent on it down to like 1-2 seconds. The banelings need to constantly kept on a move command so that you don't accidentally trade one baneling for one ling, and you want to split off 2-3 lings from your main group (Amove/right-click on baneling, shift+ click 2-3 times in the selection box, and rehotkey your lings) to attack enemy banelings. If you have any questions, just let me know.
Darglein's micro trainer in arcade has this scenario so that you can practice it against the A.I. If you want to practice it with a friend, I highly suggest grabbing a friend and drilling zergling/baneling wars with exactly the same number of ling/bane (something like 20 lings/4 banes or 30 lings/6 banes) and play "rounds" for points.
As far as actually doing the fights, you need to split off 1-2 lings to target banelings (most optimal way is to attack an baneling with your lings, quickly shift+click in the bottom display twice, and then run away and rehotkey). Your banelings should be split up into 2s, yes, which can be a little difficult. No real trick here; just practice your mouse accuracy some and this will get infinitely easier.
3) You need to make sure your lings are doing intelligent things when they are harassing. Generally, they can either be: killing drones, sniping queens, or just scouting/pulling your opponent's army back. It all depends on the situation really. MOST OF THE TIME, killing drones is the biggest priority because taking a drone lead is huge in ZvZ. However, if you're in a big macro battle with lings or roaches, sniping queens is infinitely stronger because you're reducing their larva by 4-6 for the next minute. In other cases, the lings are going to die no matter what, but you may have just taken a terrible engagement and you're in danger of dying to a counterattack. In these situations, it's best to just keep your lings alive for as long as possible, running around in the main base of your opponent and posturing drone/queen harass. Take a look at your games and try to identify exactly which of these three options were best when this happens.
I don't have a ton of time to look at your replay right now, but I'll try to get to it later.
On August 19 2014 06:48 Alchemik wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2014 05:59 SC2John wrote:On August 19 2014 05:31 Alchemik wrote: Hello! As it happens often, I'm pretty bored with the same opening in ZvT (I already changed my ZvZ and ZvP and it's a lot more fun to play now). When yesterday I played few customs with my friend, I did few times 2-base muta on the fly (I had no build) and it felt pretty fun, definitely more than standard. So, can anyone give me an actual build for it? Tried to find it by myself and found one, TLO's version, but maybe there's others? There are a few different gas timings and ways to get there, but I think probably the best way is probably gasless 4-queen opening into either double gas at 5:00 or single gas @100% pool. Then you basically just go zergling speed first, then lair (interchangeable) and add on your extra gases and a baneling nest as lair is morphing. Once you have 2-base saturation, you can take your third with a swell of lings and queens and it's pretty safe from hellion/banshee due to the fast mutas. The biggest drawback to this style is that it gets upgrades VERY late and you also run into a bit of a larva deficit. So, as a result, you need to make sure you do a fair amount of damage with your first mutas and trade very cost effectively with your lings until you have 4 hatches and +1/+1 done. Thank you! When do you get your upgrades? Right after first mutas, right?
It varies a bit, but yeah, that's a good time to get them. Should be something like 8 mutas and +1 attack, then you start the evos and drone up. Might be able to sneak an extra muta or two in there by the time evos finish, but I can't know that for sure off the top of my head, so don't quote me on that one lol.
|
|
|
|