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@SCJohn: What if he just kills off your nydus worms when you're attacking him with SH at one side and can't find an opening to harrass? I.e. if he has a bunch of hellbats in medivacs ready. Do you keep a bunch of roach/hydra ready to defend, do you spine them up?
Really interested in doing this, but losing the nydus worms constantly would be my number one concern.
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On September 30 2014 07:36 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2014 06:07 SC2Toastie wrote:Topic: Swarm Hosts vs Entrenched Siege PositionsI have recently been thinking about Swarm Hosts and their use in ZvT. Specifically, verses Mech. We all know how you can become a sitting duck after Terran gets their position up. Siege Tanks, Planetary Fortress, maybe the first few PDDs are up already. You feel pressured because you have to keep Terran away from getting their maxed out ball of Ravens rolling. You use the Swarm Hosts to prevent a moveout to your bases and whittle away at the terran, but after a certain point in time, that just doesn't cut it anymore. How to increase Swarm Host utility in this situation?A game that quickly came to mind was SKT1_Dark verse CJ_Bbyong in GSL Season 2 Code S Ro32 + Show Spoiler +. Dark uses a spread of swarm hosts, methodical creep spread and small groups of Zerglings to make life easier. The idea is that the Locust take the hits, but they'll not get deep enough into the Terran line to deal damage. This is where the spread out Zerglings come in. They are supposed to run through the ranks and cause massive friendly fire on the Terran. Dark doesn't damage the Siege Tanks with his locust and zerglings directly, he forces them to Friendly Fire themselves! This is one of the most creative uses of Swarm Hosts I have yet witnessed. Sadly, it is also reasonably situational (requires an open space to run the lings through) and hard to control (anybody has any tips on this?). How to protect your Swarm Hosts?Swarmhost are very fragile and easy to snipe from the skies. Terran players have tried Seeker Missile or surprise Banshee switches to cause massive, game ending damage on the Swarm Hosts. I see a lot of players try to minimize this damage by getting a high count of Spore Crawlers to buffer and using Vipers to deal with the fleeing thread. I also like using Queens for this purpose. Queens have the additional benefit of being mobile (reasonably), spreading creep rapidly, and having Transfuse. A reasonably succesful 'kill-move' I found is using the aforementioned Zergling tactic with Ultralisk and Queens support. Use the Locust to close in and wreak havoc with Ultra Queen. Because of the Queens pretty long range AA attack, you can even force Ravens and Vikings back which might allow you to offensively use Vipers. Abusing Dat MutacloudI also heard of (and saw a tiny few games of) people using a heavy Mutalisk + Viper combination, greatly using mobility and Viper Spells for surgical strikes. It looks very hard to control and pretty fragile (given Thor range), but does support the Swarm Hosts reasonably well by opening multiple fronts and blocking the aerial weakness. In shortI'm looking for some discussion on how to make Swarm Host useful in ZvMech. Currently, they're mostly a set and forget stepping stone unit, but I think that with some support, Swarm Host could be a lethal weapon! What do you guys think? Discuss :D! Swarm hosts are the ONLY thing that kills mech. There's no question that SH is like the key proponent to beating mech. But to make it more effective? I HIGHLY HIGHLY suggest something KawaiiRice showed me. As he's teching up to hive, he adds on a nydus network and begins to build an extensive nydus network while rallying with the SHs and doing non-committal harassment with the mutalisks. The nydus network allows you to rapidly change the angle of attack so that the Terran can't just plant tanks in one location and forget about it. You can literally burrow, unleash a wave of locusts, then unburrow and load back into the hive and be on the other side of the map by the time the next wave is ready. When you get hive, you add on vipers and use blinding cloud to break turret rings and nydus in the main. Once the main is breached, the Terran defense usually starts to crumble since you can already be back on the other side of the map by the next locust wave. And the best part: Loading a unit into the nydus worm cancels seeker missile.I have not lost with this style yet, and I honestly don't think it's possible to beat it unless the meching player gets insanely ahead earlier in the game. I personally think that relying on abduct for ravens/vikings/thors is a mistake and that blinding cloud is a much better spell for a plethora of reasons. I also don't think corruptors are better than mutas at all since they literally can't do anything except for kill ravens. But I think it might be a good idea to do something like a 3-4 BL morph on the other side of the map as the mutas to take down turret rings more quickly. All in all, muta/SH/nydus is the strongest combination that I've seen; ground based armies that trade resources are NOT good. EDIT: Also, really aggressive bases are awesome. I literally take my 5th and 6th bases at the Terran's potential 4ths and start mining gas every game. Not only does it force your opponent to have to walk over and kill the hatchery (usually with a fairly substantial amount of units to avoid just dying to mutalisks), but also gives the creep effect and steals gas from the Terran's late game.
this is brilliant. I have been doing the same... but not with the nydus. I will add one now ty
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United States4883 Posts
On September 30 2014 23:03 KeksX wrote: @SCJohn: What if he just kills off your nydus worms when you're attacking him with SH at one side and can't find an opening to harrass? I.e. if he has a bunch of hellbats in medivacs ready. Do you keep a bunch of roach/hydra ready to defend, do you spine them up?
Really interested in doing this, but losing the nydus worms constantly would be my number one concern.
Realistically, in my experience, it's impossible for Terran players to juggle repositioning tanks/hellbats for the SHs, repositioning their viking/raven fleet to deflect muta pressure, and reliably dropping and killing the nydus worms, all while taking no losses. It's just not possible for Terran to trade favorably in that scenario if you're constantly hitting from different angles. Of course, this is just based off of my own experience coupled with the power of THEORYCRAFT!, so I could be wrong. Can't tell anything for sure until you see it used consistently in pro games.
I would definitely recommend adding 1-2 spores per nydus just to push away any drops or zone out the raven/viking ball a bit, but otherwise, the nydus worms are pretty expendable. Like I said in my earlier post, Terran can't commit to killing a nydus worm or aggressive bases with only a few units without the danger of the mutas swooping in and just cleaning it up for free. Therefore, Terran either has to commit heavily to taking a new base or moving out of position to take out a nydus worm OR the Terran has to be a boss and manage to catch both the swarm hosts and the mutas out of position while not taking any damage from either and dropping on the worms (which, as I've said, is realistically impossible).
If somehow you don't kill the Terran on 3-4 bases (which I always do without a problem) and the game goes on longer, the nydus networks is your best friend because you can base trade and defend at the same time. You basically just pop into the nydus, let a wave of locusts go in the main, then jump back in and release the next wave at the oncoming mech army, etc., etc.
OH, also, adding on a handful of infestors in the super late game is good since fungal and neural are overpowered :p.
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On October 01 2014 02:33 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2014 23:03 KeksX wrote: @SCJohn: What if he just kills off your nydus worms when you're attacking him with SH at one side and can't find an opening to harrass? I.e. if he has a bunch of hellbats in medivacs ready. Do you keep a bunch of roach/hydra ready to defend, do you spine them up?
Really interested in doing this, but losing the nydus worms constantly would be my number one concern. Realistically, in my experience, it's impossible for Terran players to juggle repositioning tanks/hellbats for the SHs, repositioning their viking/raven fleet to deflect muta pressure, and reliably dropping and killing the nydus worms, all while taking no losses. It's just not possible for Terran to trade favorably in that scenario if you're constantly hitting from different angles. Of course, this is just based off of my own experience coupled with the power of THEORYCRAFT!, so I could be wrong. Can't tell anything for sure until you see it used consistently in pro games. I would definitely recommend adding 1-2 spores per nydus just to push away any drops or zone out the raven/viking ball a bit, but otherwise, the nydus worms are pretty expendable. Like I said in my earlier post, Terran can't commit to killing a nydus worm or aggressive bases with only a few units without the danger of the mutas swooping in and just cleaning it up for free. Therefore, Terran either has to commit heavily to taking a new base or moving out of position to take out a nydus worm OR the Terran has to be a boss and manage to catch both the swarm hosts and the mutas out of position while not taking any damage from either and dropping on the worms (which, as I've said, is realistically impossible). If somehow you don't kill the Terran on 3-4 bases (which I always do without a problem) and the game goes on longer, the nydus networks is your best friend because you can base trade and defend at the same time. You basically just pop into the nydus, let a wave of locusts go in the main, then jump back in and release the next wave at the oncoming mech army, etc., etc. OH, also, adding on a handful of infestors in the super late game is good since fungal and neural are overpowered :p. Neural and friendly Seekers/PDDs quickly deal with the viking raven ball, haha.
Do you use 1 exit per 'location'? It seems to me that with the speed of loading/unloading and clunkyness of Swarmhosts using 2 exits per offensive location might be worth the cost.
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United States4883 Posts
On October 01 2014 21:25 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2014 02:33 SC2John wrote:On September 30 2014 23:03 KeksX wrote: @SCJohn: What if he just kills off your nydus worms when you're attacking him with SH at one side and can't find an opening to harrass? I.e. if he has a bunch of hellbats in medivacs ready. Do you keep a bunch of roach/hydra ready to defend, do you spine them up?
Really interested in doing this, but losing the nydus worms constantly would be my number one concern. Realistically, in my experience, it's impossible for Terran players to juggle repositioning tanks/hellbats for the SHs, repositioning their viking/raven fleet to deflect muta pressure, and reliably dropping and killing the nydus worms, all while taking no losses. It's just not possible for Terran to trade favorably in that scenario if you're constantly hitting from different angles. Of course, this is just based off of my own experience coupled with the power of THEORYCRAFT!, so I could be wrong. Can't tell anything for sure until you see it used consistently in pro games. I would definitely recommend adding 1-2 spores per nydus just to push away any drops or zone out the raven/viking ball a bit, but otherwise, the nydus worms are pretty expendable. Like I said in my earlier post, Terran can't commit to killing a nydus worm or aggressive bases with only a few units without the danger of the mutas swooping in and just cleaning it up for free. Therefore, Terran either has to commit heavily to taking a new base or moving out of position to take out a nydus worm OR the Terran has to be a boss and manage to catch both the swarm hosts and the mutas out of position while not taking any damage from either and dropping on the worms (which, as I've said, is realistically impossible). If somehow you don't kill the Terran on 3-4 bases (which I always do without a problem) and the game goes on longer, the nydus networks is your best friend because you can base trade and defend at the same time. You basically just pop into the nydus, let a wave of locusts go in the main, then jump back in and release the next wave at the oncoming mech army, etc., etc. OH, also, adding on a handful of infestors in the super late game is good since fungal and neural are overpowered :p. Neural and friendly Seekers/PDDs quickly deal with the viking raven ball, haha. Do you use 1 exit per 'location'? It seems to me that with the speed of loading/unloading and clunkyness of Swarmhosts using 2 exits per offensive location might be worth the cost.
I haven't had any problems with only using one nydus worm per location, but certainly having two would increase the effectiveness of the tactic by speeding up your loading/unloading time.
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On October 01 201 21:25 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2014 02:33 SC2John wrote:On September 30 2014 23:03 KeksX wrote: @SCJohn: What if he just kills off your nydus worms when you're attacking him with SH at one side and can't find an opening to harrass? I.e. if he has a bunch of hellbats in medivacs ready. Do you keep a bunch of roach/hydra ready to defend, do you spine them up?
Really interested in doing this, but losing the nydus worms constantly would be my number one concern. Realistically, in my experience, it's impossible for Terran players to juggle repositioning tanks/hellbats for the SHs, repositioning their viking/raven fleet to deflect muta pressure, and reliably dropping and killing the nydus worms, all while taking no losses. It's just not possible for Terran to trade favorably in that scenario if you're constantly hitting from different angles. Of course, this is just based off of my own experience coupled with the power of THEORYCRAFT!, so I could be wrong. Can't tell anything for sure until you see it used consistently in pro games. I would definitely recommend adding 1-2 spores per nydus just to push away any drops or zone out the raven/viking ball a bit, but otherwise, the nydus worms are pretty expendable. Like I said in my earlier post, Terran can't commit to killing a nydus worm or aggressive bases with only a few units without the danger of the mutas swooping in and just cleaning it up for free. Therefore, Terran either has to commit heavily to taking a new base or moving out of position to take out a nydus worm OR the Terran has to be a boss and manage to catch both the swarm hosts and the mutas out of position while not taking any damage from either and dropping on the worms (which, as I've said, is realistically impossible). If somehow you don't kill the Terran on 3-4 bases (which I always do without a problem) and the game goes on longer, the nydus networks is your best friend because you can base trade and defend at the same time. You basically just pop into the nydus, let a wave of locusts go in the main, then jump back in and release the next wave at the oncoming mech army, etc., etc. OH, also, adding on a handful of infestors in the super late game is good since fungal and neural are overpowered :p. Neural and friendly Seekers/PDDs quickly deal with the viking raven ball, haha. Do you use 1 exit per 'location'? It seems to me that with the speed of loading/unloading and clunkyness of Swarmhosts using 2 exits per offensive location might be worth the cost. Using two worms at an exit is fine especially in their main. I always use two nydus networks and sometimes three. Good when sh numbers go above 15.
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Another little thing.
I've noticed Zergs not taking gas at their forth and even fifth in favor of more Zerglings and fewer Mutalisk in ZvT Biomine. Is that some new development I just noticed or has it been going on for a while? When would you add those gasses? The Zergs I see doing it get REALLY late T3.
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On October 02 2014 01:56 SC2Toastie wrote: Another little thing.
I've noticed Zergs not taking gas at their forth and even fifth in favor of more Zerglings and fewer Mutalisk in ZvT Biomine. Is that some new development I just noticed or has it been going on for a while? When would you add those gasses? The Zergs I see doing it get REALLY late T3.
Do you have any VoDs/replays for that? Would be interested in trying such a style if it looks viable against drops.
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I'm looking into drops as Zerg. Is there build orders that exist ? I'm trying this when i seem to not be abble to break the front after a roach 1/1 opening, i just go and drop the main with ovie (or drop the tanks if the guy reacted early) but...
it's not that effective so i'm trying new stuff but... Would love to see it in action from someone that actually know what he is doing.
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United States248 Posts
On October 02 2014 01:56 SC2Toastie wrote: Another little thing.
I've noticed Zergs not taking gas at their forth and even fifth in favor of more Zerglings and fewer Mutalisk in ZvT Biomine. Is that some new development I just noticed or has it been going on for a while? When would you add those gasses? The Zergs I see doing it get REALLY late T3.
This is basically the best way to play against 3CC terran who do parade pushing, because you crush their initial push SUPER hard, and then add on the mutas later. If you break their initial push then every follow up is considerable weaker. Find soO vods of TvZ and he'll be able to show you I think he did this a bunch in the games vs FlaSh earlier in september.
On October 02 2014 02:22 FFW_Rude wrote: I'm looking into drops as Zerg. Is there build orders that exist ? I'm trying this when i seem to not be abble to break the front after a roach 1/1 opening, i just go and drop the main with ovie (or drop the tanks if the guy reacted early) but...
it's not that effective so i'm trying new stuff but... Would love to see it in action from someone that actually know what he is doing.
Are you talking just in tvz or anywhere? Drops are not common in TvZ whatsoever. Recently me and SC2John talked about it and he went about finding a way to make a good build but ran into trouble:
"SC2John" : Tried to put together a 3-base roach drop/nydus build that I was telling you about. Not a lot of success. "SC2John" : Going overlord speed before lair is actually the worst thing you can do to yourself unless your opponent is actually doing a hellbat timing. "SC2John" Against everything else, it sets you back like a minute. "SC2John" : It also makes overlord drops unbelieveably late, so that drop/nydus timing hits at like 13:00, which is when Terran is already getting close to maxing out (with a 3CC build)
Basically feel free to try on your own, but there are zero pro games that really do this outside of ladder clowning. It seems like it could be solid as a roach max type build vs someone who did a hellbat/vac timing and you hold with zero losses, but honestly 1/1 roach already punishes the shit out of that, so going further for drops seems pretty overkill.
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United States4883 Posts
On October 02 2014 02:22 FFW_Rude wrote: I'm looking into drops as Zerg. Is there build orders that exist ? I'm trying this when i seem to not be abble to break the front after a roach 1/1 opening, i just go and drop the main with ovie (or drop the tanks if the guy reacted early) but...
it's not that effective so i'm trying new stuff but... Would love to see it in action from someone that actually know what he is doing.
To add to what Jowj said, yeah, I've been trying to figure out something with drops, but it's just really hard to make it work. My original idea was to use EffOrt's Anti-Hellbat Build as a base for the opening and transitioning into the HyuN 1-1 roach timing while getting drops. It seemed like a good idea since you already had overlord speed and could just pivot into drops. Unfortunately, getting overlord speed so early is a MAJOR setback against anything that's not a hellbat timing, especially if you're transitioning into roaches. In other words, it would just be better to go blind roaches or overlord speed into muta/ling/bane for the mid game; roaches and early overlord speed just don't mix very well together.
However, an idea might be to just move overlord speed to later. For instance, doing the 1-1 roach timing while researching drops + speed and getting a nydus network up (will probably require a full 66 drones and delay your roach timing a bit). Once the roach timing seems to be shut down, you just start dropping/nydusing and hitting in two places at once. Obviously, this isn't a good long-term plan, but it can be a potential transitional phase into hydras instead of just going straight from roaches -> hydras; also, it could just win the game as well.
I'll have to play around with the build order some more. If I come up with anything solid, I'll make sure to post it and let you know.
EDIT: Courtesy of KawaiiRice:
You can't fit overlord drop into a normal 1-1 roach timing very well. If you do it delayed with banelings, it's okay. Transitioning onward roach drops vs bio is pretty bad unless your timing traded well. However, it's good vs mech
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Thanks for you answers. That's what i was looking into. The 1/1 roach timing and getting drop/speed after puting the 3rd down while pushing for the timing (so it's not delayed because i take drops/speed while pushing) but it's hurt so much that you cannot reinforce your push. So i would try to deny the third and fall back. Maybe poke at the wall if i can.
I would then try to go 2/2 and not take hydralisk den but hive then viper.
I guess i'm still trying after all those years to play BW cause i drop the guy and BC the ramp and narrow path between structures but it never goes well unless the Terran is really bad.
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Many pros nowadays play the zvt style with leaving 1drone in gas after having speed started, relatively late evo chambers around 8:00-9:00 minutes, what is this build called, is there already a guide/bo existing?
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On October 02 2014 22:04 NiDoXiD wrote: Many pros nowadays play the zvt style with leaving 1drone in gas after having speed started, relatively late evo chambers around 8:00-9:00 minutes, what is this build called, is there already a guide/bo existing? This has been done forever IIRC. I believe you start Speed at 100 gas, pull 2 workers out, start lair at the next 100 gas and add more gasses + saturate the first one.
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On October 03 2014 00:05 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2014 22:04 NiDoXiD wrote: Many pros nowadays play the zvt style with leaving 1drone in gas after having speed started, relatively late evo chambers around 8:00-9:00 minutes, what is this build called, is there already a guide/bo existing? This has been done forever IIRC. I believe you start Speed at 100 gas, pull 2 workers out, start lair at the next 100 gas and add more gasses + saturate the first one.
If you scout a super fast third with that build you can also quickly switch into a roach baneling all in which hits at the normal timing.
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On October 03 2014 00:18 Ovid wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2014 00:05 SC2Toastie wrote:On October 02 2014 22:04 NiDoXiD wrote: Many pros nowadays play the zvt style with leaving 1drone in gas after having speed started, relatively late evo chambers around 8:00-9:00 minutes, what is this build called, is there already a guide/bo existing? This has been done forever IIRC. I believe you start Speed at 100 gas, pull 2 workers out, start lair at the next 100 gas and add more gasses + saturate the first one. If you scout a super fast third with that build you can also quickly switch into a roach baneling all in which hits at the normal timing. Didn't know that. How exactly would that work? Resaturate, drop roach warren and a 2nd gas, make a big round of roaches, bank gas and lings for bane morph, yolo?
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On October 03 2014 01:58 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2014 00:18 Ovid wrote:On October 03 2014 00:05 SC2Toastie wrote:On October 02 2014 22:04 NiDoXiD wrote: Many pros nowadays play the zvt style with leaving 1drone in gas after having speed started, relatively late evo chambers around 8:00-9:00 minutes, what is this build called, is there already a guide/bo existing? This has been done forever IIRC. I believe you start Speed at 100 gas, pull 2 workers out, start lair at the next 100 gas and add more gasses + saturate the first one. If you scout a super fast third with that build you can also quickly switch into a roach baneling all in which hits at the normal timing. Didn't know that. How exactly would that work? Resaturate, drop roach warren and a 2nd gas, make a big round of roaches, bank gas and lings for bane morph, yolo? I think he is talking 1reaper 3CC or 1rax 3CC type of builds. Where you go plain speedling/baneling since there are no hellions.
Edit: I'm with stupid. I missread the "roach" part of it :D
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On October 03 2014 01:58 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2014 00:18 Ovid wrote:On October 03 2014 00:05 SC2Toastie wrote:On October 02 2014 22:04 NiDoXiD wrote: Many pros nowadays play the zvt style with leaving 1drone in gas after having speed started, relatively late evo chambers around 8:00-9:00 minutes, what is this build called, is there already a guide/bo existing? This has been done forever IIRC. I believe you start Speed at 100 gas, pull 2 workers out, start lair at the next 100 gas and add more gasses + saturate the first one. If you scout a super fast third with that build you can also quickly switch into a roach baneling all in which hits at the normal timing. Didn't know that. How exactly would that work? Resaturate, drop roach warren and a 2nd gas, make a big round of roaches, bank gas and lings for bane morph, yolo?
It's exactly like the normal roach bane build, the one that hits at 8:45, I was talking about the 1 drone being kept in gas after speed has been made not about the lair, if you scout a 3rd CC before that 100 gas crucial point then you should go for the bust, all you end up doing is just put 2 back into that gas go for a 2nd gas and follow the normal route for a roach baneling. Since you can see a 3rd CC as early as 5:30 if they slightly delay their hellions. 100 gas crucial point happens around 6mins or earlier. (Plucking numbers from the top of my head should be pretty accurate)
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United States4883 Posts
On October 02 2014 22:04 NiDoXiD wrote: Many pros nowadays play the zvt style with leaving 1drone in gas after having speed started, relatively late evo chambers around 8:00-9:00 minutes, what is this build called, is there already a guide/bo existing?
On October 03 2014 02:33 Ovid wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2014 01:58 SC2Toastie wrote:On October 03 2014 00:18 Ovid wrote:On October 03 2014 00:05 SC2Toastie wrote:On October 02 2014 22:04 NiDoXiD wrote: Many pros nowadays play the zvt style with leaving 1drone in gas after having speed started, relatively late evo chambers around 8:00-9:00 minutes, what is this build called, is there already a guide/bo existing? This has been done forever IIRC. I believe you start Speed at 100 gas, pull 2 workers out, start lair at the next 100 gas and add more gasses + saturate the first one. If you scout a super fast third with that build you can also quickly switch into a roach baneling all in which hits at the normal timing. Didn't know that. How exactly would that work? Resaturate, drop roach warren and a 2nd gas, make a big round of roaches, bank gas and lings for bane morph, yolo? It's exactly like the normal roach bane build, the one that hits at 8:45, I was talking about the 1 drone being kept in gas after speed has been made not about the lair, if you scout a 3rd CC before that 100 gas crucial point then you should go for the bust, all you end up doing is just put 2 back into that gas go for a 2nd gas and follow the normal route for a roach baneling. Since you can see a 3rd CC as early as 5:30 if they slightly delay their hellions. 100 gas crucial point happens around 6mins or earlier. (Plucking numbers from the top of my head should be pretty accurate)
This was posted literally 2 pages back: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/402752-the-hots-zerg-help-me-thread?page=203#4056
Try looking for answers earlier in this thread! Either way, I see this question so commonly now that I'm tempted to just make a [G] thread so I don't have to keep answering lol.
The two base roach bust variation is approximately gas back on as soon as the third CC is spotted (5:30-6:00) (also, they don't cut hellions, it's usually the bunker or a marine that is cut to get it down sooner), then drop 2nd gas and RW and make a round of lings to keep the Terran busy. When roach warren finishes, build as many roaches as possible then make a baneling nest. Roaches will reach the other side of the map about the time that the baneling nest finishes.
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http://drop.sc/386695
I just lost this zvz and I was a bit confused as to why I fell behind. I do a speedling timing and kill 10 drones, putting me a bit ahead in the worker count. From there I transition into a roach speed/+1 push and mutas pop as I'm there. My third base is up but not really functional by that point and I just fall behind in economy. After about 13:00 is me scrambling an inefficient push using queens and nydus which usually works on even economy, but as I checked the replay I realize i would have lost regardless of what I did from there. I know vs mutas your third needs to be done before mutas pop so you can hold it with a spore(s). I put down the third as I could afford it though. If I scouted the spire, not much would have changed in my play.
So my question is this, did my ling timing simply put me too far behind in tech to execute the roach push? In this situation should I have cut a few roaches, put the third down earlier and played defense? I don't really understand why I fell behind here. Everything after the spire pops is kind of sloppy on my part, though I noted that no amount of macro would have put me in a good place. (He was equally as sloppy and still well ahead.) I'm trying to get back into this game and the flow of it is a lot different than it used to be in WoL.
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