Under no terms by making this guide do I do it because mech is the "best" way to play. I do believe that mech has so much more potential than players would have you believe and actually is incredibly viable in any league including Grandmaster. It might not make you the next flash but it is an alternative in enjoying the Terran race. Also excuse my english, I am not a native speaker.
Some things to know. I have been working on this build order / style of mech since about February, this is an evolved version of my previous guides / replays. The most up to date way on how I play TvP mech.
my new and improved version of mech has had several Top 30 GM's on NA / EU help me build through advice or facing them. I have played hundreds of hours and gone through even more watching replays, I hope you enjoy the fruits of my labor!
The first thing I want to cover is the build order.
10 depo 12 barracks 15 gas 15 orbital 17 depo 1-3 marines, reactor first 400 minerals CC first 100 gas factory. When factory finishes get 1 refinery 1 armory, 1 widow mine. After 1 widow mine get a supply depo and a tech lab on the factory. React as scouted.
Video annotations:
Rally point on 9 Supply to build your supply depo at the wall on time.
You always want your barracks in a position that if you had to make bunkers infront of it, you only need a few to protect your Command center. With this positioning I can easily defend 1 gas and all my buildings with 3 bunkers split up infront of my buildings. With the exception of my frontal supply depo. A great defense for blink stalkers.
14 supply, rally your next worker to the gas geyser. Have another SCV qued up and you will be taking your gas at 15 supply right away. use the barracks scv and 1 scv from the command center to take this geyser.
Scout anytime after your gas geyser and barracks are already producing. Produce 1-3 marines depending on what you scout and how safe you feel before the reactor. I prefer to make 2-3 by default as they help stop a zealot.
Command center at 400 minerals. This will be delayed or faster by your reactor timing. remember that if you get a reactor before your second marine. You are vulnerable to chrono zealot however stronger against zealot stalker mothership core.
Your first 100 gas after the reactor, make a factory.
Don't forget this third supply depo right after or before you make your 2 marines at a time. Any supply depo after your first should go behind your mineral line, to help prevent cheeses from sniping them.
When your factory finishes take a second gas and an armory.
With your first widow mine ready you should be starting another supply depo and then a techlab. We want 1 widow mine to stop oracles and the ability to get siege tanks right after. This makes it so we can get enough to stop blink stalkers. Which usually hits at the 8 minute mark.
If you haven't scouted blink stalkers or a heavy gateway all in with proxy immortals. Get widow mines and the burrowing claws. We can use these defensively and aggressively vs stargate and only gateway play.
Once you have drilling claws on the way drop a starport. This times out that you can have your medivac flying to his base with 4 widow mines and have drilling claws finish on the way. Take your expansion when comfortable in doing so.
Make sure to have scans at 7:30 for DT's drop an engineering bay around 7:30, once they finish feel free to mule again. The build becomes scout dependant from here. However your focus is to get to 3-4 factories 1 barracks getting ghosts and 1 starport with tech lab for medivacs for drops, vikings for collosai or ravens.
make sure you reach 3 bases shortly after dropping your production. You want the gas to be able to support your high tech units. Just like a protoss is limited to collosai or storm on 2 base, you cannot get raven and ghost until you are at 3.
Defending all ins:
Defending any all in that comes in through your front is relatively easy, all you have to do is drop a bunker or two and crank out a siege tank after your first widow mine while delaying your drilling claws until after you are safe. Then simply continue with the build. The bunker doesn't have to be at your ramp, it can be 5 yards away so that most things can't fire on it. Even 6 or 7 works since then any unit that comes up the ramp will then be hit with tanks and will funnel through bunkers to get there. Bunkers that can only be reached through the high ground.
Oracles: Your first widow mine should always go in your mineral line, once you scout stargate just drop an earlier engineering bay and drop 1 turret in each mineral line. Then continue with your normal build, try to avoid any pheonix he might make when you are dropping.
Dark templar: Save your scans starting 7:00, make sure you have 1 nearly 2 by the 7:30 mark. Once your ebay is finished feel free to spend some and always leave 1 until you have proper dark templar defense like a turret at your front.
Blink stalker: Make sure you have proper building placement in every game, you want your production facilities near your main, defending 1 gas and away from the edges. It allows for easier bunker placements like the pictures below. Producing 2 marines at a time and 1 siege tank you'll be able to take your expo in no time.
Production facility goals 4-7 factories, 1-3 barracks, 1-3 starports. It all depends on your economy.
Don't be afraid to grab your third with proper bunker positoning.
Ideal composition: Thor / raven / ghost / X [X?] Nothing changes on thor ghost raven, no matter what you want them. If there is an air army you add viking and if there is a ground army you add hellbats. You can however use widow mines for either one depending on if you snipe their AOE.
The rest of the things to know are my little rules. I follow these rules down to a T and very rarely change them. They are rules i've developed playing hundreds of games of mech at GM level. I have faced many top 16 GMs, ranging to high masters the last few months and the build before you has been my 1 strategy i've focused on perfecting. Many players knew what they were facing and I practice this build many times a day against team mates. I haven't found anything that hard counters this build or can't be stopped.
1) Scout blink? Get an engineering bay after your 3 bunkers and save a scan or two. 2) When dropping against pheonix try to stay near edges where you can drop, this allows you to drop your units while moving and burrow fast to kill pheonix. It isn't an auto loss of everything inside if he finds your dropship. 3) The less AOE (collosai / templar) the stronger widow mines are. 4) You can continue widow mine production and do a 15 minute timing attack if you have the counter to his army. Vikings / ghosts. 5) Always have a buffer for your siege tanks. 6) The closer to 200 army you are the better thors are over siege tanks. 7) Never go above 170 supply without scanning his army and counter comping appropriately. 8) Your goal is 15 ravens, 15 ghosts and the rest thor + filler units. 9) The less zealots the more thors. 10) The more zealots the more hellbats 11) have a third? Drop a turret ring in your main. 12) Sensor tower near your main defense line, even on 2 base. 13) Emp'ing immortals is more important then Emp'ing high templar when you have a ground army. 14) Emp'ing high templar is more important then Emp'ing any other unit when you have an air army. 15) The longer the game goes on the more missile turrets you add. You don't want anything reaching your production. 16) Planetary fortresses are great ways to close off attack paths with missile turrets. 17) Past your 3rd base you may want to use building armor + 2 planetaries depending on the distance from your main to your new expo. 18) no less then 2 turrets at each base 19) If zealot heavy upgrade armor first. 20) if scouting tempest favor viking upgrades 21) If they have an air army and no aoe mass widow mine thor viking 22) Always strive to your 15 / 15 raven ghost army. 23) You don't have to have even half his bases as long as you are maxed and have an income. 24) Always trade efficiently 25) Any unit can be dropped and harass 26) Widow mines gives less warning then hellbats on dropping. 27) Use Shift + D to drop widow mines while flying over and burrowing mines when flying right to left or from bottem to top. 28) When flying left to right or top to bottom use Control + E on the first widow mine that drops each time you drop another using the shift D method. This will keep targeting all widow mines in the area and burrowing them. 29) When using the raven only use 1-2 point defense drones at a time, be patient so he you don't lose all your energy if he retreats. 30) Once you snipe the templar (or emp) the mass tempests are incredibly weak to any anti air that reaches them since you can freely point defense drone and engage without needing to split or pull away in fear of storm. 31) Never hunter seeker tempest. 32) Widow mines are best against voidrays. 33) Thors should use splash mode against any air unit but the tempest or collosai 34) If the opponent can't kill the widow mines before they drop, feel free to drop his army. 35) It can never hurt to have 1 nuke available. 36) The farther spaced out you are the more sensor towers you need. 37) a busy protoss has a hard time stopping sensor towers being built around the map. Use this right before you engage to easily see counter attacks or retreat paths. 38) It's best to prevent blink stalker from moving past widow mines then to chase them with widow mines. 39) Never lose your patience as mech, you will most likely die the moment you do. 40) The better your economy, the more scvs you must lose through repairing your main army or sacrificing. 41) Orbitals are more important then a 5th base as long as you are mining from 6 gas geysers. 42) Don't bother splitting the map, only attack where you can easily defend or plan to attack. 43) a floating orbital and dropping mules in random locations is always usefull. 44) have raven out of main control group and following thors. 45) With critical viking counts make sure they follow a thor with the raven. You don't want them flying ahead into storm. Only engage them through PDD and snipe if you can. 46) All though you don't need to harass to win, it sure as hell helps a lot when you do. 47) harass is viable at any stage of the game. 48) If he has voidray and tempest make sure to have 5 thors in AOE mode. 49) If he doesn't have any AOE or blink and you have widow mines, you are currently ahead. 50) If he has little anti air before an attack, try to snipe the collosai before the fight. 51) Always knew where and what his army is. 52) always be ready for a fight to engage you, before it engages you. It will make you a shit ton stronger. 53) Always have thors when fighting tempest, a ground remax is always possible. 54) Unless you are sure you can win the game with your push, always re treat to defend counter attacks that need your main army.
Frequent stream questions:
Why drilling claws so early? In the early phase drilling claws are really hard to stop if you can kill observers, without AOE they are the most powerful unit against protoss that aren't going mass zealot. You also have the claws earlier allowing faster harass drops with less time to respond increasing it's potency. You have drilling claws already so if you scout an air transition you can crank those bastards out and still be useful. You can do many mid game timing attacks with widow mines as long as you have vikings to kill his collosai or obs and ghost to kill his templar. (only needed to advance, if you're split up and burrowed templar aren't really useful to attack into defended positions.
Aren't immortals a hard counter? No, a thor trades equal to an immortal and you can produce more. Once the immortals shields are gone they are incredibly vulnerable. Widow mines, hunter seeker, emp and hellbats are pretty good at removing the shields. EMP being the best of course.
Isn't tempest a hard counter?
Nah, ravens stop them hard core. As long as you have enough anti air and can snipe his templar you should always win the fight. The truth is that it comes down to a micro battle and the superior player will win. It is slightly harder for the terran however since he has to use ravens, ghosts and his army compared to tempest and templar. However since you build these units early on you can already have a critical mass and exploit any ground to air transitions and just win the game.
Why ravens and ghosts? The power of the mech army has always been heavy splash through siege tanks and space control. We're taking that theory and incorporating it into mass EMP which is disastrous against protoss and combined with point defense drone against projectiles or hunter seeker againt void rays, immortals, clumped up units you already have a lot of splash that is just energy. Making you very effective, imagine 2 different forms of high templar. Combine this with the raw power and survivability that mech has through HP and armor.
You mentioned timing attacks with widow mines?
It's very simple, if you can kill the observer through scans + viking or raven + viking, he simply can't move where widow mines are. Not to mention that if he can't kill them before they burrow under his army or keep them away. He just loses everything. There are a few ways to exploit that however that is for another guide and at another time. You'll see me use this often on yotuube or stream though.
Pro players are saying mech isn't viable?
It has lots of potential and the raven, ghost and widow mine are the key to it. In reality it hasn't been explored nearly as much as bio since WOL and hots just has so much more to offer to the mech Terran. I can't prove it works at GSL level because well I am not GSL level. I have proven it works in grandmaster though, this means anyone grandmaster and below could still use this strategy to win games. You've seen a few terrans pull out a mech strategy and win which means it is possible in some form. I'm simply trying to kick it up a notch
The truth is that the lower of a league you are, the better mech is for you. Until players start figuring out how to not engage your army you will always be stronger. This doesn't even come until master league players for a lot of people. You could easily get to masters using this strategy. It's just easier to control if you don't have to deal with constant harass. Sure it gets to be a lot harder in high masters / GM but it's still really hard to pick apart a well defended mech Terran.
Do you use this strategy every TvP?
Pretty much, I have a few more I can pull out that I am tinkering with but this is my baby. I've played this for hours to hours, to days, to weeks against the same friends practicing every which way to break me. None of them can find a way that is stable. There simply is no hard counter that I have found. You could lose because of a few mistakes building up but there isn't a hard counter to my knowledge.
Have any replays to share with us?
Sure, I got some GM and high master ones. I just played, I'll share the last 5 or so. Pick them straight out of my recent matches. I don't think i've lost a tvp in a few days so I am pretty sure they are all wins. Not trying to cocky or ego or anything. Just saying that I am very confident in my TvP at the moment over the other races.
What is your ultimate army that you strive for?
15 ghosts, 15 raven, and 5-10 thors. Sprinkle in hellbats for gateway units, vikings for air or widow mine for either as long as he isn't zealot heavy. The only thing that really changes is the buffer. Everything else you get the same past the first 4-5 tanks for defense.
Why not mass siege tank, does it not work?
It works, it just isn't as strong or robust or mobile. All though I do use mass siege tanks from time to time for aesthetics it's just not as powerful.
How come there is no mention of Carriers?
I guess I forgot about that unit, I never have a problem against them thors splashing them, ghosts hitting them and vikings / mines supporting, carriers aren't really a problem unless he gets a shit ton of them.
in fact once you see a carrier transition you can just make a turret / army push. Interceptors actually take a while to build and the moment his carriers lose momentum it's a full on re treat for him. Since you end up getting building armor and range anyway turrets are pretty handy at killing interceptors. Minerals are very rarely a problem in mech.
So basically my question is what do you do against the lategame composition of mostly carrier, just a few voidray/tempest and some immortals and possibly templar. I feel it's pretty easy to transition into this as protoss and I don't think carriers have a good answer for T. Vikings and thors do 'ok' but I feel it's pretty easy for P to force a nearly even trade with this and then just win with the remax. Especially since T is forced into lot's of starports which are useless if P goes for a ground remax. Classic mistakes P seem to make agianst mech is going for a timing to try and kill them (this rarely works), focussing too much on zealot/archon (sucks because of the high zealot count being dominated by hellbats) and going too tempest focussed imo (easily countered by PDD).
I don't need to deviate my composition at all for this army, in fact I spend the whole game building the units that crush this. voidray intercepts and high templar are very weak to thor / ghost, PDD for tempests. Immortals are nice but you can just fill in some mines or hellbats as a buffer, since they usually stack under voidrays and carriers the emps almost always hit his whole army, voidrays and carriers have a slow acceleration. On top of this you can always force a retreat with a nuke.
As carriers if you are forced to retreat your interceptors still take damage. If you drop a nuke everytime you engage you will whittle down his interceptors relatively fast. Don't forget hunter seeker as well. You can use emp / hunter seeker on immortals and you will have plenty since you build them really early on. Hell you will usually have 4-5 tanks as well from your mid game to only hit the immortals who are emp'd. They will drop fast.
I've played this for hours to hours, to days, to weeks against the same friends practicing every which way to break me. None of them can find a way that is stable. There simply is no hard counter that I have found.
If this is true, and I know your level is semi-pro level, then mech can be called viable.
This guide is possibly one of the most well-written ones I have ever seen, and I will 100% be trying this out for a good while. I've always figured Ravens were the way to go since the Seeker cost was reduced and they wreck immortals but I haven't 'found that safe way to survive the early game.
All of your points about defending early aggression are good, only thing that will remain hard to deal with is 10 supply gateway mcore stalker harass, but such is life
OK. I read the guide. It looks like you changed your composition. You used to use tank + hellbat but you changed to the thor/ghost/raven. And all mech TvP in WCS Europe have been tank + hellbat. I'm curious whether your changed composition is aimed for late-game, since hellbat + tank don't work in late-game.
On June 05 2013 11:27 larse wrote: OK. I read the guide. It looks like you changed your composition. You used to use tank + hellbat but you changed to the thor/ghost/raven. And all mech TvP in WCS Europe have been tank + hellbat. I'm curious whether your changed composition is aimed for late-game, since hellbat + tank don't work in late-game.
Hell bat tank starts losing it's effectiveness in the mid game. It's still possible however you are incredibly more open to tech changes and out positions. It's hard to close the game and takes longer to setup. We use siege tanks until a few minutes before it is in a weakened state and use it's strength to boost us into the late game.
On June 05 2013 11:12 ROOTNathanias wrote: This guide is possibly one of the most well-written ones I have ever seen, and I will 100% be trying this out for a good while. I've always figured Ravens were the way to go since the Seeker cost was reduced and they wreck immortals but I haven't 'found that safe way to survive the early game.
All of your points about defending early aggression are good, only thing that will remain hard to deal with is 10 supply gateway mcore stalker harass, but such is life
On June 05 2013 11:27 larse wrote: OK. I read the guide. It looks like you changed your composition. You used to use tank + hellbat but you changed to the thor/ghost/raven. And all mech TvP in WCS Europe have been tank + hellbat. I'm curious whether your changed composition is aimed for late-game, since hellbat + tank don't work in late-game.
Hell bat tank starts losing it's effectiveness in the mid game. It's still possible however you are incredibly more open to tech changes and out positions. It's hard to close the game and takes longer to setup. We use siege tanks until a few minutes before it is in a weakened state and use it's strength to boost us into the late game.
So based on your game vs Nony, I would say you found the weaknesses of your old composition in the late-game (which is tank + hellbat)?So do you think you can win the game 3 against Nony with your new composition?
On June 05 2013 11:27 larse wrote: OK. I read the guide. It looks like you changed your composition. You used to use tank + hellbat but you changed to the thor/ghost/raven. And all mech TvP in WCS Europe have been tank + hellbat. I'm curious whether your changed composition is aimed for late-game, since hellbat + tank don't work in late-game.
Hell bat tank starts losing it's effectiveness in the mid game. It's still possible however you are incredibly more open to tech changes and out positions. It's hard to close the game and takes longer to setup. We use siege tanks until a few minutes before it is in a weakened state and use it's strength to boost us into the late game.
So based on your game vs Nony, I would say you found the weaknesses of your old composition in the late-game (which is tank + hellbat)?So do you think you can win the game 3 against Nony with your new composition?
Yes, nony was a big factory in evolving my playstyle.
Awesome guide Mario, thanks for the replays, going to try this out, TvP is such a strange beast, having such a well made guide to follow is really going to help Terrans out there.
On June 05 2013 11:27 larse wrote: OK. I read the guide. It looks like you changed your composition. You used to use tank + hellbat but you changed to the thor/ghost/raven. And all mech TvP in WCS Europe have been tank + hellbat. I'm curious whether your changed composition is aimed for late-game, since hellbat + tank don't work in late-game.
Tank/Hellbat straight up loses to Blink Stalkers and Immortals. If the Protoss engages smartly (and especially if they manage to catch Tanks unsieged, which isn't that difficult with Blink Stalkers) then they're going to Blink on top of the Terran's army and destroy it pretty cost-effectively. This is mostly as the Tanks will all splash each other once they siege, which you obviously don't want. This can be mitigated with good Tank lines, but if the Protoss engages into a well-spread, pre-sieged Tank line then they're obviously being dumb. Relying on being able to get into a good position near the Protoss base with this composition is basically relying on your opponent to have no map awareness whatsoever. The only saving grace of this type of Mech play are Hellbat drops, which can win games quite quickly if the Protoss messes up the defence of even a single drop.
Hellbat/Thor/Ghost/Raven is a better composition mostly because it can't be caught out of position as easily (as it doesn't rely on being sieged) and as it has a counter to Immortals (EMP). It is still horribly immobile, however, and a good Protoss should still be able to exploit it with Blink Stalkers. Also, despite what the guide says, Thors are not good against Immortals. It is only EMP that allows them to trade well. To be honest, I still believe that Blink Stalker/Immortal can take this composition on with good Blink micro, especially once Templar are added to blanket the Terran in Storms (too immobile to move away, gonna soak that damage), but it's definitely a closer fight than the Tank/Hellbat situation.
The major mistake Protoss players make (and the reason they lose) against Mech in HotS is an over-reliance on Chargelots, and that's because a lot of Protoss players are used to being able to stomp Mech with Chargelot/Archon/Immortal. That's not possible any more because Hellbats are stupid exist, but all you really need to do is replace the Chargelots with Blink Stalkers and make sure you micro correctly. Oh, and don't lose too many Probes to drops, that will kill you pretty quickly because you won't have an army... this is also true with Bio, but Mech has much more potent drop potential (Mines, Hellbats).
Thors can fight an immortal 1 on 1, they have a lot more health then siege tanks. They are also great against stalkers and archons. Combined with EMP they are exceptional against any ground unit that protoss can throw at terran.. Very few people get chargelots against me. In fact most of them open up blink right away and I still win the games.
It feels like you're theory crafting over checking the replays.
Looks good, I like the fast drilling claws in case P is passive, that is some very tough harass to handle; far more difficult than hellbat drops.
One thing that eludes me though is how you play against carriers. From my experience carriers should be the meat of the protoss air transition. A few voidrays (2 or 3) are nice for their blunt damage and you can produce them while the fleet beacon warps in but they are too vulnerable to aoe. Tempests are cute with their range but PDD is indeed an easy counter and their damage is abysmal anyway..
When I face mech I just try to go non-stop immortals from 1 robo while expanding fairly aggressively and quickly go into air. Couple voidrays then just mass carrier while focussing on the attack upgrade for air quickly. I wonder what your response against that would be, carriers do decent against everything non-bio T has in my experience plus they make widow mines and PDD horrible. Widow mines detonate on the interceptors and splash your own units against carriers and PDD deplete insanely quickly against them. Tempests are a much later addition for me just because they are so supply efficient and help break defensive positions but carriers first anytime for me. Templar are a sweet addition later on but I don't like them early because they are so gas heavy forcing me into lots of zealots which suck against mech now I feel. Air transition feels so much better than spending heavily on charge, templar archives, forges + upgrades etc. Just a lone robo, a couple gateways and 2-3 stargates with the cybercore upgrading saving costs on forge/twilight/archives/charge feels better for me. Ground upgrades are not that useful against mech terran anyway I think (every unit does high base damage making armor pretty much useless, immortals do fine without attack upgrades).
So basically my question is what do you do against the lategame composition of mostly carrier, just a few voidray/tempest and some immortals and possibly templar. I feel it's pretty easy to transition into this as protoss and I don't think carriers have a good answer for T. Vikings and thors do 'ok' but I feel it's pretty easy for P to force a nearly even trade with this and then just win with the remax. Especially since T is forced into lot's of starports which are useless if P goes for a ground remax. Classic mistakes P seem to make agianst mech is going for a timing to try and kill them (this rarely works), focussing too much on zealot/archon (sucks because of the high zealot count being dominated by hellbats) and going too tempest focussed imo (easily countered by PDD).
On June 05 2013 23:00 TheDwf wrote: How come there is no mention of Carriers?
I guess I forgot about that unit, I never have a problem against them with PDD affecting interceptors, thors splashing them, ghosts hitting them and vikings / mines supporting, carriers aren't really a problem unless he gets a shit ton of them.
in fact once you see a carrier transition you can just make a turret / army push. Interceptors actually take a while to build and the moment his carriers lose momentum it's a full on re treat for him. Since you end up getting building armor and range anyway turrets are pretty handy at killing interceptors. Minerals are very rarely a problem in mech.
So basically my question is what do you do against the lategame composition of mostly carrier, just a few voidray/tempest and some immortals and possibly templar. I feel it's pretty easy to transition into this as protoss and I don't think carriers have a good answer for T. Vikings and thors do 'ok' but I feel it's pretty easy for P to force a nearly even trade with this and then just win with the remax. Especially since T is forced into lot's of starports which are useless if P goes for a ground remax. Classic mistakes P seem to make agianst mech is going for a timing to try and kill them (this rarely works), focussing too much on zealot/archon (sucks because of the high zealot count being dominated by hellbats) and going too tempest focussed imo (easily countered by PDD).
I don't need to deviate my composition at all for this army, in fact I spend the whole game building the units that crush this. voidray intercepts and high templar are very weak to thor / ghost, not to mention PDD for the interceptors and tempests. Immortals are nice but you can just fill in some mines or hellbats as a buffer, since they usually stack under voidrays and carriers the emps almost always hit his whole army, voidrays and carriers have a slow acceleration. On top of this you can always force a retreat with a nuke.
As carriers if you are forced to retreat your interceptors still take damage. If you drop a nuke everytime you engage you will whittle down his interceptors relatively fast. Don't forget hunter seeker as well. You can use emp / hunter seeker on immortals and you will have plenty since you build them really early on. Hell you will usually have 4-5 tanks as well from your mid game to only hit the immortals who are emp'd. They will drop fast.
On June 05 2013 23:27 ImperialFist wrote: in the end it all comes down to your ghost usage anyway, while bio has more potential imo most of it comes down to personal preference.
well done guide btw
It's true, late game tvp mech comes a lot with composition however if you can't EMP an army like immortal archon high templar, or tempest templar. It can be really difficult to close the game. Not impossible but exceptionally difficult.
Much like before Mario, the only thing I don't understand is why you use thors and not tanks. Tanks really do do everything you said thors can do and I'd argue they work better with EMP than the thors do. Still an awesome guide and hopefully this'll end up getting more people into mech. ^^
On June 05 2013 23:37 Qikz wrote: Much like before Mario, the only thing I don't understand is why you use thors and not tanks. Tanks really do do everything you said thors can do and I'd argue they work better with EMP than the thors do. Still an awesome guide and hopefully this'll end up getting more people into mech. ^^
Tanks take longer to get into position then thors, it's easier to find a dent in your armor using tanks in the late game. Another worry is several stargates hidden producing mass air. Tanks can't shoot up and thors can also shoot down. It's a little less splash for a lot more power. You can have 1-5 tanks with your army, it doesn't really hurt. Your core should be the thor raven ghost though.
Thot/Raven/Ghost is Mech??? Presonally dont think so. 2 casters+massing Thors will never be called "Mech". Here in Europe we got Bunny and STRELOK going Mech in TvP using Hellbat/Tank/Ghostless into Viking/Thor/Raven if the P goes AIR and IT WORKS PERFECT. You should go and check the Day9 daily about the Streloks Mech and maybe will understand why it work. The BO is pretty simple and more in only one direction of tech and not including so many casters difficult to control in a battle.
Cant see your composition work against Tempers/Voidray/HT/CArrier.Hts can Feedback both ghosts and ravens(PDD as well) and Thors will never ever reach to shoot any tempest Chargelots+blink stalkers as reinforcement will just crush you,something that wont happen with hellbats buffering your tanks while killing HTs with the siege mode. Your style is another "Deatball" moving across the map.
Thanks for this well written guide and keeping up Mech in TvP. I used to think that Tank Hellbat is the way to go too, but also made the experience that it has a lot of problems. So I gave up on Mech in TvP a little bit, which makes me especially eager to try your style.
One question though, why do you get your Armory that fast and dont use it? I assume you want to start fast upgrades or have access to Hellbats? Wouldnt it be better to delay the Armory for a bit, until you confirmed that no all-in is coming if you dont plan to get Hellbats early? Maybe till you start your second Factory (the one which is supposed to be reactored)?
On upgrades, do you upgrade weapons or armor first normally? If going for Tanks, it is a nobrainer to get weapons, but with Thor / Hellbat amor could be good too (it affects the early Ravens too). Also do you ever get a second armory or just use a single early one to gradually upgrade? With Tank Hellbat I usually got a second Armory on 75% of +1 weapon to build up to a nice +2 +1 timing push, but I dont know how much you can get with this build in the given time frame and thus if such a timing makes any sense.
On June 05 2013 23:00 TheDwf wrote: How come there is no mention of Carriers?
I guess I forgot about that unit, I never have a problem against them with PDD affecting interceptors, thors splashing them, ghosts hitting them and vikings / mines supporting, carriers aren't really a problem unless he gets a shit ton of them.
I thought PDDs didnt affect interceptors. However if they do the situation is even worse: It really gives tempests a free reign, since a single carrier will pretty much insta-dry every PDD.
Personally I wonder why not every toss does zealot/stalker/MsC poke. I use the same opening, and it is difficult to hold it off, with enough chance to outright lose to it, while very little investment from the toss.
On June 05 2013 23:44 Dvriel wrote: Thot/Raven/Ghost is Mech??? Presonally dont think so. 2 casters+massing Thors will never be called "Mech". Here in Europe we got Bunny and STRELOK going Mech in TvP using Hellbat/Tank/Ghostless into Viking/Thor/Raven if the P goes AIR and IT WORKS PERFECT. You should go and check the Day9 daily about the Streloks Mech and maybe will understand why it work. The BO is pretty simple and more in only one direction of tech and not including so many casters difficult to control in a battle.
Cant see your composition work against Tempers/Voidray/HT/CArrier.Hts can Feedback both ghosts and ravens(PDD as well) and Thors will never ever reach to shoot any tempest Chargelots+blink stalkers as reinforcement will just crush you,something that wont happen with hellbats buffering your tanks while killing HTs with the siege mode. Your style is another "Deatball" moving across the map.
I also use siege tank hellbat ghost, yes it looks great however it's far superior. And yes this is mech... Brood war in fact also used ghosts and science vessels for their mech. That's just like raven ghost... They even went mass goliath =/= thor? And it was still called mech.
ghosts and templar are each others counter, it requires micro. Saying he has templar so ghosts don't work simply well is silly. Yes it is a death ball. In fact all of mech is a death ball. There is a reason why mech is feared is because it's harass constantly and while you're doing damage you create a large death ball...
Also stalkers are terrible against thors and both they and tempest are shut down by PPD, chargelots aren't an issue because not only do you have a shit ton of armor but thors do ok, ghosts do ok and you can mix in hellbats to really handle them.
On June 05 2013 23:44 Dvriel wrote: Thot/Raven/Ghost is Mech??? Presonally dont think so. 2 casters+massing Thors will never be called "Mech". Here in Europe we got Bunny and STRELOK going Mech in TvP using Hellbat/Tank/Ghostless into Viking/Thor/Raven if the P goes AIR and IT WORKS PERFECT. You should go and check the Day9 daily about the Streloks Mech and maybe will understand why it work. The BO is pretty simple and more in only one direction of tech and not including so many casters difficult to control in a battle.
Cant see your composition work against Tempers/Voidray/HT/CArrier.Hts can Feedback both ghosts and ravens(PDD as well) and Thors will never ever reach to shoot any tempest Chargelots+blink stalkers as reinforcement will just crush you,something that wont happen with hellbats buffering your tanks while killing HTs with the siege mode. Your style is another "Deatball" moving across the map.
I also use siege tank hellbat ghost, yes it looks great however it's far superior. And yes this is mech... Brood war in fact also used ghosts and science vessels for their mech. That's just like raven ghost... They even went mass goliath =/= thor? And it was still called mech.
ghosts and templar are each others counter, it requires micro. Saying he has templar so ghosts don't work simply well is silly. Yes it is a death ball. In fact all of mech is a death ball. There is a reason why mech is feared is because it's harass constantly and while you're doing damage you create a large death ball...
Also stalkers are terrible against thors and both they and tempest are shut down by PPD, chargelots aren't an issue because not only do you have a shit ton of armor but thors do ok, ghosts do ok and you can mix in hellbats to really handle them.
I will wait to see you EMP the Protoss army when there are Tempest and Carriers. Your Ghosts will never reach the HTs because of the Tempest range and will be sniped before even engage.Thors are slow shooting in the AA mode, but the "Antimuta" is ok vs interceptors because of splash but usually they are turning themselves in 360º trying to shoot so many small flying units.The immortals and archons will also kill Thors so easy and quick that you wont even see it coming. In BW the SV was for the EMPs,here moved to the ghosts and Ravens+Ghosts are very gas heavy and difficult to remax.You need lot of gas and not lose a single engagement. How are you harassing constatnly as mech? I dont understand it. I use Hellbat drops.The Protoss usually got 5-6 cannons in each base and HTs to snipe the medivac,but hellbats still kill lot of workers or even BFH runbies, but what are you using??? How many PDDs re you casting to stop 20+ stalkers and 10+ Tempest+Carriers? Dont see this working at all.Will check your replays anyway, but in the Streloks build you make the Protoss fear to go out or even expand while maxin in about 15 min allowing you even to remax on Starports if needed while killing his 3rd and natural..
I will wait to see you EMP the Protoss army when there are Tempest and Carriers. Your Ghosts will never reach the HTs because of the Tempest range and will be sniped before even engage.Thors are slow shooting in the AA mode, but the "Antimuta" is ok vs interceptors because of splash but usually they are turning themselves in 360º trying to shoot so many small flying units.The immortals and archons will also kill Thors so easy and quick that you wont even see it coming. In BW the SV was for the EMPs,here moved to the ghosts and Ravens+Ghosts are very gas heavy and difficult to remax.You need lot of gas and not lose a single engagement. How are you harassing constatnly as mech? I dont understand it. I use Hellbat drops.The Protoss usually got 5-6 cannons in each base and HTs to snipe the medivac,but hellbats still kill lot of workers or even BFH runbies, but what are you using??? How many PDDs re you casting to stop 20+ stalkers and 10+ Tempest+Carriers? Dont see this working at all.Will check your replays anyway, but in the Streloks build you make the Protoss fear to go out or even expand while maxin in about 15 min allowing you even to remax on Starports if needed while killing his 3rd and natural..
Now I'm not a huge fan or very knowledgable of this thor style and I haven't been, but it feels like you're jumping to conclusions without even watching the game.
Little to almost ever will you be going in to EMP and then moving in after, it's not bio and it simply doesn't work that way. With Tank/Hellbat/Ghost/Raven/Viking mech (all depends on what they have) it's all about getting a good position and forcing them to either engage into you or be contained. I'm pretty sure the same could be said here and the time you go to EMP is when they move in and clump up. Same goes for the use of PDD and HSM.
The ravens are used primarily so you can throw vikings into a meat grinder with tempests as you want to be able to trade as efficiently as possible while remaxing on air very quickly. Carriers are dealt with in this instance by thors, turrets and HSM and I'd say HTOMario's style is even better as it's more built around anti air (the thors) than tank/hellbat mech.
In the end, it all leads up to Sky terran, or atleast vikings/ravens if they go air as they're essential no matter what the circumstance, but Terran also has turrets and what not to help push.
On June 05 2013 23:00 TheDwf wrote: How come there is no mention of Carriers?
I guess I forgot about that unit, I never have a problem against them with PDD affecting interceptors, thors splashing them, ghosts hitting them and vikings / mines supporting, carriers aren't really a problem unless he gets a shit ton of them.
in fact once you see a carrier transition you can just make a turret / army push. Interceptors actually take a while to build and the moment his carriers lose momentum it's a full on re treat for him. Since you end up getting building armor and range anyway turrets are pretty handy at killing interceptors. Minerals are very rarely a problem in mech.
So basically my question is what do you do against the lategame composition of mostly carrier, just a few voidray/tempest and some immortals and possibly templar. I feel it's pretty easy to transition into this as protoss and I don't think carriers have a good answer for T. Vikings and thors do 'ok' but I feel it's pretty easy for P to force a nearly even trade with this and then just win with the remax. Especially since T is forced into lot's of starports which are useless if P goes for a ground remax. Classic mistakes P seem to make agianst mech is going for a timing to try and kill them (this rarely works), focussing too much on zealot/archon (sucks because of the high zealot count being dominated by hellbats) and going too tempest focussed imo (easily countered by PDD).
I don't need to deviate my composition at all for this army, in fact I spend the whole game building the units that crush this. voidray intercepts and high templar are very weak to thor / ghost, not to mention PDD for the interceptors and tempests. Immortals are nice but you can just fill in some mines or hellbats as a buffer, since they usually stack under voidrays and carriers the emps almost always hit his whole army, voidrays and carriers have a slow acceleration. On top of this you can always force a retreat with a nuke.
As carriers if you are forced to retreat your interceptors still take damage. If you drop a nuke everytime you engage you will whittle down his interceptors relatively fast. Don't forget hunter seeker as well. You can use emp / hunter seeker on immortals and you will have plenty since you build them really early on. Hell you will usually have 4-5 tanks as well from your mid game to only hit the immortals who are emp'd. They will drop fast.
Like already said, PDD doesn't affect interceptors. In fact I fail to see the use of ravens at all against the airtoss composition if it doesn't include tempests (which is really the more scary one). I still don't get how your composition does well against carrier/immortal with just a splash of void maybe ht. Interceptors spread out so much that the thor splash doesn't affect it that much, besides I don't think you should be attacking interceptors at all with the thors but rather just use the high impact on the carrier itself.
Carriers can pretty much nullify PDD and make ravens pretty bad by simply focussing the PDD which doesn't protect itself. The lash range target switching makes this fairly easy, I don't really get in general why you would want ravens so much. I feel ghosts are pretty much better in every way except against the massive tempest composition which is a silly bad one anyways.
Do any of the replays include going up against almost pure carrier/immortal? It's nice to give a short summary of the replays anyway because watching them all is just so time consuming, I have no doubt you can trash protoss that try to beat you with the classic chargelot compositions.
Mark, never underestimate the power of HSM against pretty much everything but Tempests. Carriers stack up and void rays both stack super hard and unless they maticulously split every single one individually which they won't do, it's a lot of either free damage or extra time to hit them with everything else while they pull back
When I try mech TvP, my biggest problem is that the Protoss is more mobile than me. Once it gets to more than 4 bases, there is no way for me to prevent him from taking the entire map, while he can snipe an expo from me and then just run away or recall. Planetaries dont do anything against a maxed Protoss army, while he can make a ton of cannons at his expos and be safe. The only way to kill them is by moving my entire army out of position and die to a counterattack. Because of this and because of the fact that Protoss upgrades are much quicker, it sadly feels like mech TvP is just good for timings and allins, as much as I want to play a long game, I get picked apart slowly. Maybe anyone has a tip for me :/
On June 06 2013 01:17 Aquila- wrote: When I try mech TvP, my biggest problem is that the Protoss is more mobile than me. Once it gets to more than 4 bases, there is no way for me to prevent him from taking the entire map, while he can snipe an expo from me and then just run away or recall. Planetaries dont do anything against a maxed Protoss army, while he can make a ton of cannons at his expos and be safe. The only way to kill them is by moving my entire army out of position and die to a counterattack. Because of this and because of the fact that Protoss upgrades are much quicker, it sadly feels like mech TvP is just good for timings and allins, as much as I want to play a long game, I get picked apart slowly. Maybe anyone has a tip for me :/
You may think that because the protoss army is more mobile late game than you, that you never have a chance to do any damage, but you'd be thinking incorrectly. What you need to do is establish a good place on the map to allow you to cover the majority of your bases, or atleast 3 by ground and then slowly but surely edge towards one side of the map. This forces his units to go there and you can split up a few hellbats/tanks or in this case a few thors most likely and go snipe nexus. If that's not possible, you want to be using nukes on his further bases. He can't be everywhere at once much like you can't, so it's entirely possible to prevent them mass expanding.
Whirlwind for example in vertical or horizontal positions you can move outside of the forward third and set up a position in the middle while expanding behind yourself.
On June 06 2013 01:17 Aquila- wrote: When I try mech TvP, my biggest problem is that the Protoss is more mobile than me. Once it gets to more than 4 bases, there is no way for me to prevent him from taking the entire map, while he can snipe an expo from me and then just run away or recall. Planetaries dont do anything against a maxed Protoss army, while he can make a ton of cannons at his expos and be safe. The only way to kill them is by moving my entire army out of position and die to a counterattack. Because of this and because of the fact that Protoss upgrades are much quicker, it sadly feels like mech TvP is just good for timings and allins, as much as I want to play a long game, I get picked apart slowly. Maybe anyone has a tip for me :/
You don't need to kill every base, make sure you can confront his army and when you win he has to re max. Just push for his main and take out all his production. rally your own inside in case he tries to do a counter attack. It can't be too big because you're heading for his base and just killed his army and it can't really be at your expo's because you have PFS.
Also nukes are an excellent way to harass his expo's. So are thor drops.
Mario can you please answer my question about the early Armory a couple of posts back, I am really curious as it is not explained in your build why you get it that early.
On June 06 2013 02:59 puissance wrote: Mario can you please answer my question about the early Armory a couple of posts back, I am really curious as it is not explained in your build why you get it that early.
I did, I stated that you need it for early drilling claws. It also allows to get earlier thor production if they go for stargate play.
On June 06 2013 01:10 Qikz wrote: Mark, never underestimate the power of HSM against pretty much everything but Tempests. Carriers stack up and void rays both stack super hard and unless they maticulously split every single one individually which they won't do, it's a lot of either free damage or extra time to hit them with everything else while they pull back
carriers don't stack much at all actually. And yes voidrays do but that's why you only make like 2 of them. It's a fine unit to make while you transition to airtoss but after that just carriers all the way. hsm, pdd and autoturret are all pretty lousy against carriers. I fail to see how some spell that does only soso damage after a huge delay is really any useful, against immortals you only hit after the shields are pretty much gone already and against carrier/void the damage is really lousy unless you hit multiple units which is actually not all that likely if protoss get's a decent mix. Carrier/immortal with a few immortal/templar hardly stacks as it has mostly different range and the units are really big, voidrays only stack above the immortals if you approach from exactly the same angle which is super easy to avoid being air..
It feels to me like this strat has lots of ravens just for the tempest + storm lategame strat which is ok but imo just inferior to carriers.
From facing it I think the most troublesome is just hellbat/thor with a splash of tanks and ghosts with lots of vikings in case of air. I don't see why you would want to spend tons of gas on ravens, it's hard enough as it is getting hellbat/thor/tank/ghost/viking, why add the ravens. It's a cute answer to immortals that is fairly allround but hsm just does the damage too late for it to matter in battles most of the time, it tends to overkill or whiff a lot just because the unit you're targeting is already dying for other reasons by the time the 5 seconds are over. Not even mentioning how expensive and difficult it is to have tech lab starport in addition to the other expensive infrastructure mech needs.
Well, I must say that you may have discovered the best way to harass in SC2! There are marines drops, mixed bio drops,roach,zealots,collosus,HTs...Till today I thought the Hellbat drop was the best way to kill workers and the quickest posible because of the splash,but now watching you drop 4!!! 1sec burrow Widow mines...Its just GREAT! As one of your enemys said: "there is nothing I can do". He was waitng for the medivac with one cannon,1 obs,3 stalkers and sentry and not even all this stuff make posible to stop the mines kill almost 10 workers. In other games you were killim +15 each drop. Its not cheap(400 minerals+200 gas vs possibly 500 minerals), but its very effective and very difficult to stop. Hellbats usually go and try to focus the cannons or the units defending but Widow Mines ignore the cannon and go straight for the workers. In my TvPs I was using lot of BFH losing many of them always and was not worth.Then changet to Hellbats, but this now is evenbetter. The bad of this strategy is that it comes in early game and forcé you to make early armory and research the mine upgrade. Its too much for early game and very often will put you in a defensive mode without much stuff and if the Protoss lose 10 workers will almost always immediatly all in and you wont be able to defend at least your natural.The 3rd will be imposible...Early widow mine drop without the upgrade will be enough to make him stay home,wjile you are expanding. Your strategy is too dangerous,but from mid to late game...Its just PERFECT!!!Thanks!!
o boy those games are so awfully boring, it's terrible. You wait a million years to get aggressive after the drop openings and scan a million times. The ravens in your composition just don't do you much good either, make it severely slower to max out and the hsm is just a bit crap. Delayed damage is so sucky when fights are over so quick not too mention PDD is awful against most P armies, I really don't get why they are part of your 'ultimate' composition.
It's a good thing this style doesn't work too well though because damn what is it boring.. Mass planetaries, sensor towers, slow silly armies.. Yet i haven't seen a single game where the P goes a sensible combination against your mech, no carriers anywhere..
o boy those games are so awfully boring, it's terrible. You wait a million years to get aggressive after the drop openings and scan a million times. The ravens in your composition just don't do you much good either, make it severely slower to max out and the hsm is just a bit crap. Delayed damage is so sucky when fights are over so quick not too mention PDD is awful against most P armies, I really don't get why they are part of your 'ultimate' composition.
It's a good thing this style doesn't work too well though because damn what is it boring.. Mass planetaries, sensor towers, slow silly armies.. Yet i haven't seen a single game where the P goes a sensible combination against your mech, no carriers anywhere..
It's nice that you keep coming back to complain about pretty much everything.
Just because it's a slower style doesn't mean it's boring, it's all about playing safe until you can push out and either win or do a ton of damage. Sure you can't push out with like 2 tanks and 5 marines like you could if they were mm, but it doesn't mean it's bad.
The style also doesn't work too well as you're forced to mass planataries everywhere due to how weak mech units actually are. It's the mass planataries and incredibly slow style (this isn't counting the 2-2 push style I play) that actually makes mech viable to play currently. Hopefully mech will recieve a buff, but while it doesn't it's going to look like this.
Also you claiming ravens are bad shows how little you actually know about the workings of mech vs toss.
I watched some of your replays. I think you need to specify on the usage and timing of tank. You obviously still build a lot of tanks but in the guide you just said "build tho/raven/ghost + (hellbat/viking)". In the replays I watched, you build more tanks than thor/raven/ghost. They obviously play a very important role. But you guide seems to mostly dismiss the tank.
I know you played a lot of mech so you can comprehend when it's the best time to build what, so you can smoothly switch between tank and other mech/air units but to other people this is not so obvious. I think you need to be more specific about tank.
On June 07 2013 02:56 larse wrote: I watched some of your replays. I think you need to specify on the usage and timing of tank. You obviously still build a lot of tanks but in the guide you just said "build tho/raven/ghost + (hellbat/viking)". In the replays I watched, you build more tanks than thor/raven/ghost. They obviously play a very important role. But you guide seems to mostly dismiss the tank.
I know you played a lot of mech so you can comprehend when it's the best time to build what, so you can smoothly switch between tank and other mech/air units but to other people this is not so obvious. I think you need to be more specific about tank.
You're right I don't think I touched up on this a lot. I only get tanks to defend my 3 bases. past the 4th I feel they are too immobile.
I've been playing around with this for a week now, I feel like Mass Ghost - Viking with Thor-Raven-Hellbat support with a silly amount of Turrets and Pfs is pretty damn strong on some maps. Massing tanks on the other hand seems incredibly bad. It all comes down to the mass ghost-viking still in my opinion. I want to see how mech-ghost fare vs mass carrier. Anyone got replays.
On June 07 2013 10:14 Sircoolguy wrote: have you tried/had luck with more aggressive styles on two or three bases, or if they don't work why not?
They work with heavy widow mine viking ghost timings. I just favor playing safe over aggressive. Don't get me wrong I can do it but I prefer to get a re assured 1 hour game win over a 15 minute timing push win. I also really really love building my base and just looking at it. xD
This is the only Mech play I've ever seen that I've looked at as a Protoss and thought "Okay, now I'm scared."
I really hope more Terrans don't pick this up, but I truly admire your generosity, skill, and persistence in making this style work at a GM level and then sharing your results with everyone, as bad as it is for me personally
After watching some of your games that tank/hellbat is a superior composition in the midgame. It seems to be punish a greedy or over aggressive protoss players with timing pushes while having a 20 supply advantage.
However, against the balled up 3-4 base protoss army thors can tank more damage and are more mobile than tank based armies.
Mech players that seek out midgame timings to kill or hinder the protoss player should find themselves in good stead. Hellbat/tank packs a punch.
On June 07 2013 21:10 frantic.cactus wrote: After watching some of your games that tank/hellbat is a superior composition in the midgame. It seems to be punish a greedy or over aggressive protoss players with timing pushes while having a 20 supply advantage.
However, against the balled up 3-4 base protoss army thors can tank more damage and are more mobile than tank based armies.
Mech players that seek out midgame timings to kill or hinder the protoss player should find themselves in good stead. Hellbat/tank packs a punch.
hellbat / tank pushes can be really strong yes in the mid game. Once the late game draws near it loses it's luster.
i just had a question since English isn't my first language.
could you re-explain or elaborate on this part from your tips
27) Use Shift + D to drop widow mines while flying over and burrowing mines when flying right to left or from bottem to top. 28) When flying left to right or top to bottom use Control + E on the first widow mine that drops each time you drop another using the shift D method. This will keep targeting all widow mines in the area and burrowing them.
So when you're flying in the dropship with the 4 widow mines,and you press shift-d four times to drop four mines?
and what's the difference between using ctrl-d and shift-d?
On June 08 2013 08:37 Cayoss wrote: mario, awesome guide.
i just had a question since English isn't my first language.
could you re-explain or elaborate on this part from your tips
27) Use Shift + D to drop widow mines while flying over and burrowing mines when flying right to left or from bottem to top. 28) When flying left to right or top to bottom use Control + E on the first widow mine that drops each time you drop another using the shift D method. This will keep targeting all widow mines in the area and burrowing them.
So when you're flying in the dropship with the 4 widow mines,and you press shift-d four times to drop four mines?
and what's the difference between using ctrl-d and shift-d?
shift + d 1x to start dropping units while flying
control + E 4x on the widow mines to burrow them immediately as they fall. You use this control + E on the first widow mine and it will target every widow mine in the area. This way as you drop it you don't have to keep looking for the others and trying to click or box them at a weird angle.
On June 09 2013 22:15 Magbane wrote: Please explain how sky terran is not "mech". Mech is short term from the word "mechanical". All terran air units are mechanical, thus being mech.
On June 09 2013 22:15 Magbane wrote: Please explain how sky terran is not "mech". Mech is short term from the word "mechanical". All terran air units are mechanical, thus being mech.
So Sentries/Stalkers/Colossi is mech?
Well, you can try to make it sound silly. But from what I understand, people say that term "mech" was originated from BW where it was characterized by tank play. Well, even in that case, the word "mech" comes straight from the affix "mechanical". Also it happened to be tank centric in BW by neccesity. In SC2, mech needs alot more. Also, its not like in bw you could only build tanks, you needed lots of goliaths.
Also, we call marine marauder "bio", because its "biological".
As we are going down this path, i will clear up your confusion without any necessary pain that would go with it.
When throwing out the definitions of things, it would probably be best to make sure you understood what you were saying.
Mech is short for mechanical, because that is the defining feature for it, as is Bio the defining feature fo Bio Compositions.
Sky Terran by its very definition, is short for a sky based/air army where that army is defined by being able to fly.
As such and I am going out on a limb here of common sense, when these terms were coined, it was because, they all 3 had completely different DEFINING attributes, and thus the names came into existence!
On June 10 2013 00:17 Magbane wrote: This is very simple concept.
Mech = mechanical All air units are mechanical Mech can be either ground or air or both
Sky terran is mech, you can call full air army "sky terran" but it is still mech
False. Although the name "mech" comes from the base word "mechanical" it effectively means "factory units".
Next you're going to argue that every starcraft unit is a "worker" because it does a job/function instead of being interchangeable with the term "harvester."
Edit: you have ~90 posts in the last day instead of enjoying what is possibly the best Finnish summer ever! (this is my first post all weekend.)
On topic: @HTOMario, I've always enjoyed your mech style tvp and if when summer gets rainy I'll give them some practice :D
On June 09 2013 22:15 Magbane wrote: Please explain how sky terran is not "mech". Mech is short term from the word "mechanical". All terran air units are mechanical, thus being mech.
So Sentries/Stalkers/Colossi is mech?
Sky terran was still used in brood war under the classification of mech. For example the fantasy build involved a lot of valkyrie and was still considered mech.
Your core army still involves factory units however just like in brood war where you used ghosts and science vessels, here you use ravens and ghosts.
This isn't a bio build because we only use ghosts, this isn't a sky terran build because we mostly use thor, hellbat, widow mine and siege tank. We only use raven and viking and in much smaller numbers. They are our support units.
Blizzard stated that they don't want mech working pure out of the factory. In fact one of the reasons ravens were so buffed was because it was really hard to deal with broodlord / corrupter, especially as mech.
On June 09 2013 22:15 Magbane wrote: Please explain how sky terran is not "mech". Mech is short term from the word "mechanical". All terran air units are mechanical, thus being mech.
Mech is about factory units not sky Terran, it stems from the mech play that was used in Brood War predominantly versus Protoss, mech is the nickname the style received due to the units used (Tank, Vulture Goliath) being all mechanical, what that nickname doesn't mean is that all mechanical units are part of a mech style.
This style uses ravens as support casters and vikings as an air counter when needed however it's basis is the factory units.
On June 10 2013 00:43 Magbane wrote: "mech = factory unit" is nonsense
You're being to literal with the term mech, it's just a nickname that was given.
It doesnt make sense, and it wasnt called mech because it had tanks, it was called mech because it was mechanical. It just happened to bw mech was based on tanks. But its not like that it was only tanks, there were lots of goliaths for anti air.
On June 10 2013 01:31 Magbane wrote: It doesnt make sense, and it wasnt called mech because it had tanks, it was called mech because it was mechanical. It just happened to bw mech was based on tanks. But its not like that it was only tanks, there were lots of goliaths for anti air.
On June 10 2013 00:43 Magbane wrote: "mech = factory unit" is nonsense
It's short terms for unit compositions, you don't have to be an ass about it. You can say mech and know it's going to be factory units, you don't have to question if it was air units. It makes things easier for everyone.
Anyways, fantastic guide. It's reassuring that you're still honing your mech style and that you're finding success with it. I've been reallllly tempted to learning how to use it, I think it has a lot of potential.
Your mines in that game vs Brownra are completely ridiculous. I think regardless of how people feel about mech, your opening with quick drilling claws and mine drops is pretty damn effective.
On June 10 2013 08:01 Muggs wrote: Your mines in that game vs Brownra are completely ridiculous. I think regardless of how people feel about mech, your opening with quick drilling claws and mine drops is pretty damn effective.
Yeah I'm trying to develop a whole other style of tanks + mines at the moment too. I feel I have perfected this strategy and it's time to move on with some ideas and tinker.
On June 10 2013 08:01 Muggs wrote: Your mines in that game vs Brownra are completely ridiculous. I think regardless of how people feel about mech, your opening with quick drilling claws and mine drops is pretty damn effective.
Yeah I'm trying to develop a whole other style of tanks + mines at the moment too. I feel I have perfected this strategy and it's time to move on with some ideas and tinker.
Would your goal be to play mech more aggressive and hit a timing with a style like that or what?
On June 10 2013 08:01 Muggs wrote: Your mines in that game vs Brownra are completely ridiculous. I think regardless of how people feel about mech, your opening with quick drilling claws and mine drops is pretty damn effective.
Yeah I'm trying to develop a whole other style of tanks + mines at the moment too. I feel I have perfected this strategy and it's time to move on with some ideas and tinker.
Would your goal be to play mech more aggressive and hit a timing with a style like that or what?
HTO, what are your thoughts on meching on the new ladder maps. I lost a game on red city in the late game due to bad engagements which might be expected when figuring out new maps. Also sky island seems pretty impossible to mech on given that it lends it self to lots of 1 or 2 base play. Granted I'm a diamond player (currently plat with the new season, but consistently diamond last few seasons should be back up to diamond in week or so) so it could just be bad mechanics etc or or a lack of understanding how to mech properly.
Never underestimate the widow mine in early game stages really.
That is just beautiful - never though you could use widow mines like that vs Protoss. Great music as well, I had to pause all the time to add new songs to my playlist.
On June 11 2013 07:50 Sircoolguy wrote: HTO, what are your thoughts on meching on the new ladder maps. I lost a game on red city in the late game due to bad engagements which might be expected when figuring out new maps. Also sky island seems pretty impossible to mech on given that it lends it self to lots of 1 or 2 base play. Granted I'm a diamond player (currently plat with the new season, but consistently diamond last few seasons should be back up to diamond in week or so) so it could just be bad mechanics etc or or a lack of understanding how to mech properly.
They aren't that bad, I like the new dynamic. it's just another loop to overcome really. In general I think it's not mech positive but not mech impossible.
How many tanks do you recommend for holding a third before transitioning to Thors and should I get a PF or OC I have had a lot of trouble holding my third, though this could be due to other reasons such as not enough hellbats, etc. I understand this is usually map dependent, but any general tips on this?
On June 11 2013 12:43 Sircoolguy wrote: How many tanks do you recommend for holding a third before transitioning to Thors and should I get a PF or OC I have had a lot of trouble holding my third, though this could be due to other reasons such as not enough hellbats, etc. I understand this is usually map dependent, but any general tips on this?
5-10 is a decent number, OC preferred and bunkers for marines.
I tried this mech style. It is awesome. It is probably one of the most powerful army you can ever make in TvP. Awesome guide, hopefully one day we see this in the GSL! :D
On June 12 2013 21:23 Vipermagi wrote: How to handle 2 base blink stalker allins?
And what is the proper factory usage? mine --> techlab --> 3x mines (go drop) --> 4-5 tanks and then start making thors?
How to play vs immortal / archon / high templar? which units to make? And how to handle zealot warpins when facing this ^ composition above?
How to handle one base blink stalker ---> archon / void ray / tempest ?
Well positioned bunkers + tanks
mine - tech lab - mine - mine - mine - tank (1-3) go from there
EMP thor hellbat, just land emps on the immortals and archons over storm, but if you can get the templar too. You should stomp his army so warp ins aren't a problem as you will have your main army.
Proper bunker placement > ghost raven thor viking mines do ok here too.
So one problem I have is dealing with HT late game where the P has mass zealot archon HT and usually a few colosi and observers. What has happened to me a few times is I have had the ghost stormed or picked off when trying to get emps preemptively. This has resulted in my ravens getting feedbacked and dying, and then leaving me with hellbat thor which just dies without ghost and raven support. How do you engage against HT's safely since feedback can destroy the necessary support units?
On June 13 2013 05:21 Sircoolguy wrote: So one problem I have is dealing with HT late game where the P has mass zealot archon HT and usually a few colosi and observers. What has happened to me a few times is I have had the ghost stormed or picked off when trying to get emps preemptively. This has resulted in my ravens getting feedbacked and dying, and then leaving me with hellbat thor which just dies without ghost and raven support. How do you engage against HT's safely since feedback can destroy the necessary support units?
keep the ravens in the back and snipe / emp the templar, it comes down to a micro battle.
i have a question for ya Mario Dont u think 12rax-12gas is better opening cuz u can have reaper to scout opponent s base and its basically something like 12rax 15gas i guess but this is just my thought nad great thread by the way and ill try it becasue i always want to try mech in TvP
On June 13 2013 08:05 meksp wrote: i have a question for ya Mario Dont u think 12rax-12gas is better opening cuz u can have reaper to scout opponent s base and its basically something like 12rax 15gas i guess but this is just my thought nad great thread by the way and ill try it becasue i always want to try mech in TvP
I was never really a fan of the reaper opener, sure it's handy but I never really felt it necessary.
The build in this guide is one of least hellbat reliant mech vP builds I've seen and used, especially early game, so in regards to this build, it probably won't have that much of an impact.
On June 10 2013 08:01 Muggs wrote: Your mines in that game vs Brownra are completely ridiculous. I think regardless of how people feel about mech, your opening with quick drilling claws and mine drops is pretty damn effective.
Yeah I'm trying to develop a whole other style of tanks + mines at the moment too. I feel I have perfected this strategy and it's time to move on with some ideas and tinker.
This is what i've been thinking for a while now. If mech is to be a solid style (where you don't have to play tower defense for 2 hours) it needs to do a lot better against some of the late game Protoss comps of Immortal Archon and potential for hidden air. The mine looks like the obvious choice.
In general terms, i'm thinking of something like a Hellbat heavy early and early-mid game with Tanks and upgrades and some harass (Banshees might be great with the new patch). As you get more gas and position on the map, replace some Hellbats with Mines for a mass Tank and a 50/50 Hellbat/Mine army.
I think the key will be in how you position the Mines and Hellbats. You want the Hellbats to fight the Zealots but you don't want the mines to go of on them. So maybe Hellbats in front and the mines close to the Tanks. Once the Zealots are dead, retreat the remaining Hellbats and have the mines go of on Immortals Archons etc.
Just tried mine tank on sky island and it worked really well, I ended up going 13 gas fact expo into a 2 base 4 factory 1 port push. You need 2 ravens and some vikings to prevent colosi from killing all of your mines before they shoot. Expand as necessary after that and also transition to bats is a good idea once there are lots of chargelots.
On June 15 2013 13:42 Rhuubarb wrote: The build in this guide is one of least hellbat reliant mech vP builds I've seen and used, especially early game, so in regards to this build, it probably won't have that much of an impact.
That's right, besides I like to get blue flame as well.
So bit of a bump: I follow an opening that is pretty much the same as shown here. The issue I then have are all-ins. I generally scout fine an all-in is coming. But which all-in? For example my last TvP, initial SCV scout saw a pylon was missing in the main. I did run a bit around to find a proxy, but on some maps it is just too large to reliably find the proxy, especially without reaper. (Even with reaper on some maps it is just unlikely you find it, also if they for example are just hiding it in their base).
So then I just prepare on the majority of all-ins: widow mine in mineral line against oracles (later missile turret). Missile turret at entrance to natural. Another bunker there, etc. Blink stalkers come, I die. Apparantly it was blink that was being proxied. And that is pretty much my defense vs toss all-ins, pray it isn't a blink all-in, and prepare for the others.
I know how I should defend vs a blink all-in, but how do I figure out a blink-all in is coming? Should I stick to main and not go into my natural until after he takes his natural? That keeps my forces a bit more together, but still leaves the main issue of finding out it is a blink all-in. And I like placing defence at the entrance of my natural, because that way I can wall my main with 2 depots + rax against proxy gate shennanigans, and then place a bunker at entrance to my natural to prevent him from sniping my supply depots with stalker(s)/MsC. Or should I just start adding reaper(s) to my opening? Although they also can't scout hidden tech in his main on many maps.
Hey HTOMario I really like this guide , I think your awesome and I really want to learn Mech but I have no idea how to in tvz . I have my tvt and tvp now sorted due to this guide (I use forgg's mech style in tvt) But do you think mech in tvz is still as viable in hots as it was in wol and can you also give a good guide for it as I usually do a double factory hellion harass into bio but I think I mey be able to change the bo to do mech so if you could give me a ood guide or basis on what to do as I have my opener sorted just no idea what to do .
Edit:in which matchup do you think mech is least viable ? also do you think this can be as viable as bio at a pro and high ladder level ? also what about using hellions siege tanks an vikings in tvz ? (would it be an effective comp as it is insanely fast and bfh hellions destroy if they get a decent surround ) The unit comp would be ALOT of hellion a few siege tanks vikings constantly being pumped out from 1/2 starports and 2/3 ravens.
Hey, Mario, awesome guide! Still relevant I believe to the current game :-)
One question. Using the same logic you use for Thors > Tanks with this, would a Thor/Mine style possibly be more effective than the Tank/Mine style you've recently been doing more of lately? Or does the splash and burst of Tanks, plus the range of them combined with the lightning shield aspect of Widow Mines make still make Tank/Mine superior if you're going for a composition with lots of Mines?
On October 18 2014 13:44 NinjaDuckBob wrote: Hey, Mario, awesome guide! Still relevant I believe to the current game :-)
One question. Using the same logic you use for Thors > Tanks with this, would a Thor/Mine style possibly be more effective than the Tank/Mine style you've recently been doing more of lately? Or does the splash and burst of Tanks, plus the range of them combined with the lightning shield aspect of Widow Mines make still make Tank/Mine superior if you're going for a composition with lots of Mines?
I am not Mario but since I play the Mine/Tank style in every TvP this is my take on it.
In my experience it best not to be dogmatic about the composition. Initially I always go for Mine/Tank plus a few Vikings and Hellions since those synergize well. Mine/Tank are also really good against Colossus/Stalker based compositions.
However if you do not manage to cripple Protoss in early or midgame they often transition into air. In those cases there are two possible outcomes: 1. You manage to hit them right when they transition to air and can kill them with mines alone. A few Carriers or Tempest with some ground support does nothing against mass mine so you win the game. 2. They manage to get a large Tempest count with some ground support. In that case Tanks becomes almost obsolete and you need Raven/Thor/Viking/Hellion/Mine to fight them. You need the Ravens for pdd, Hellions to kill HTs and soak up shots while you run your Mines forward and Thor/Viking to kill the Tempest. Vikings are better vs Tempest but since they are vulnerable to storm it is better to have Thors as well.
These are my personal rules for when to go Mine/Tank and when to go Mine/Thor deepening on my opponents composition. I always use some Vikings to snipe Observers and Hellions to soak up some damage or scout ahead as well.
Mine/Tank Colossus/Stalker HT/Zealot Mass immortals Mass stalkers
Mine/Thor Large Protoss air fleet Mass Archon Few Stalkers
As always it is better to kill Protoss before late game.
On October 18 2014 13:44 NinjaDuckBob wrote: Hey, Mario, awesome guide! Still relevant I believe to the current game :-)
One question. Using the same logic you use for Thors > Tanks with this, would a Thor/Mine style possibly be more effective than the Tank/Mine style you've recently been doing more of lately? Or does the splash and burst of Tanks, plus the range of them combined with the lightning shield aspect of Widow Mines make still make Tank/Mine superior if you're going for a composition with lots of Mines?
I am not Mario but since I play the Mine/Tank style in every TvP this is my take on it.
In my experience it best not to be dogmatic about the composition. Initially I always go for Mine/Tank plus a few Vikings and Hellions since those synergize well. Mine/Tank are also really good against Colossus/Stalker based compositions.
However if you do not manage to cripple Protoss in early or midgame they often transition into air. In those cases there are two possible outcomes: 1. You manage to hit them right when they transition to air and can kill them with mines alone. A few Carriers or Tempest with some ground support does nothing against mass mine so you win the game. 2. They manage to get a large Tempest count with some ground support. In that case Tanks becomes almost obsolete and you need Raven/Thor/Viking/Hellion/Mine to fight them. You need the Ravens for pdd, Hellions to kill HTs and soak up shots while you run your Mines forward and Thor/Viking to kill the Tempest. Vikings are better vs Tempest but since they are vulnerable to storm it is better to have Thors as well.
These are my personal rules for when to go Mine/Tank and when to go Mine/Thor deepening on my opponents composition. I always use some Vikings to snipe Observers and Hellions to soak up some damage or scout ahead as well.
Mine/Tank Colossus/Stalker HT/Zealot Mass immortals Mass stalkers
Mine/Thor Large Protoss air fleet Mass Archon Few Stalkers
As always it is better to kill Protoss before late game.
Thanks for that guide. How do you deal with ultra late game mass carrier/immortal/HT compositions? Mario didnt give a good answer I think and I cannot seem to beat a Protoss at that stage. The answer for mass tempest is obviously mass raven but mass carrier is much harder to deal with i find.
On October 18 2014 13:44 NinjaDuckBob wrote: Hey, Mario, awesome guide! Still relevant I believe to the current game :-)
One question. Using the same logic you use for Thors > Tanks with this, would a Thor/Mine style possibly be more effective than the Tank/Mine style you've recently been doing more of lately? Or does the splash and burst of Tanks, plus the range of them combined with the lightning shield aspect of Widow Mines make still make Tank/Mine superior if you're going for a composition with lots of Mines?
I am not Mario but since I play the Mine/Tank style in every TvP this is my take on it.
In my experience it best not to be dogmatic about the composition. Initially I always go for Mine/Tank plus a few Vikings and Hellions since those synergize well. Mine/Tank are also really good against Colossus/Stalker based compositions.
However if you do not manage to cripple Protoss in early or midgame they often transition into air. In those cases there are two possible outcomes: 1. You manage to hit them right when they transition to air and can kill them with mines alone. A few Carriers or Tempest with some ground support does nothing against mass mine so you win the game. 2. They manage to get a large Tempest count with some ground support. In that case Tanks becomes almost obsolete and you need Raven/Thor/Viking/Hellion/Mine to fight them. You need the Ravens for pdd, Hellions to kill HTs and soak up shots while you run your Mines forward and Thor/Viking to kill the Tempest. Vikings are better vs Tempest but since they are vulnerable to storm it is better to have Thors as well.
These are my personal rules for when to go Mine/Tank and when to go Mine/Thor deepening on my opponents composition. I always use some Vikings to snipe Observers and Hellions to soak up some damage or scout ahead as well.
Mine/Tank Colossus/Stalker HT/Zealot Mass immortals Mass stalkers
Mine/Thor Large Protoss air fleet Mass Archon Few Stalkers
As always it is better to kill Protoss before late game.
Thanks for that guide. How do you deal with ultra late game mass carrier/immortal/HT compositions? Mario didnt give a good answer I think and I cannot seem to beat a Protoss at that stage. The answer for mass tempest is obviously mass raven but mass carrier is much harder to deal with i find.
The key to playing the Mine/Tank style is to understand that Mines are cost efficient but not supply efficient. You need to trade often since Protoss is simply more supply efficient if you let him max out on high gas units.
The immortals can basically be ignored since you cannot use Tanks or Thors against mass Carrier/HT/Immortals. If you can kill the Carriers and HT you will win after remax, if not are dead anyway. So the problem is the Carrier/HT part of the composition.
The best solution is to kill him before he gets there. The second best solution is to trade often so he can never have more than 4-5 Carriers at a time. The third best solution is bum rush mass mines under/close to his Carriers, burrow the mines and blow up all the interceptors. Then use hellions to kill his HTs and focus down his Carriers with the Vikings while dodging storm.
On October 18 2014 13:44 NinjaDuckBob wrote: Hey, Mario, awesome guide! Still relevant I believe to the current game :-)
One question. Using the same logic you use for Thors > Tanks with this, would a Thor/Mine style possibly be more effective than the Tank/Mine style you've recently been doing more of lately? Or does the splash and burst of Tanks, plus the range of them combined with the lightning shield aspect of Widow Mines make still make Tank/Mine superior if you're going for a composition with lots of Mines?
I am not Mario but since I play the Mine/Tank style in every TvP this is my take on it.
In my experience it best not to be dogmatic about the composition. Initially I always go for Mine/Tank plus a few Vikings and Hellions since those synergize well. Mine/Tank are also really good against Colossus/Stalker based compositions.
However if you do not manage to cripple Protoss in early or midgame they often transition into air. In those cases there are two possible outcomes: 1. You manage to hit them right when they transition to air and can kill them with mines alone. A few Carriers or Tempest with some ground support does nothing against mass mine so you win the game. 2. They manage to get a large Tempest count with some ground support. In that case Tanks becomes almost obsolete and you need Raven/Thor/Viking/Hellion/Mine to fight them. You need the Ravens for pdd, Hellions to kill HTs and soak up shots while you run your Mines forward and Thor/Viking to kill the Tempest. Vikings are better vs Tempest but since they are vulnerable to storm it is better to have Thors as well.
These are my personal rules for when to go Mine/Tank and when to go Mine/Thor deepening on my opponents composition. I always use some Vikings to snipe Observers and Hellions to soak up some damage or scout ahead as well.
Mine/Tank Colossus/Stalker HT/Zealot Mass immortals Mass stalkers
Mine/Thor Large Protoss air fleet Mass Archon Few Stalkers
As always it is better to kill Protoss before late game.
Thanks for that guide. How do you deal with ultra late game mass carrier/immortal/HT compositions? Mario didnt give a good answer I think and I cannot seem to beat a Protoss at that stage. The answer for mass tempest is obviously mass raven but mass carrier is much harder to deal with i find.
The key to playing the Mine/Tank style is to understand that Mines are cost efficient but not supply efficient. You need to trade often since Protoss is simply more supply efficient if you let him max out on high gas units.
The immortals can basically be ignored since you cannot use Tanks or Thors against mass Carrier/HT/Immortals. If you can kill the Carriers and HT you will win after remax, if not are dead anyway. So the problem is the Carrier/HT part of the composition.
The best solution is to kill him before he gets there. The second best solution is to trade often so he can never have more than 4-5 Carriers at a time. The third best solution is bum rush mass mines under/close to his Carriers, burrow the mines and blow up all the interceptors. Then use hellions to kill his HTs and focus down his Carriers with the Vikings while dodging storm.
Ok thank you I will try that. Do you build many Ravens against carrier based armies or are HSM useless? Also, do you build ghosts or are they not necessary due to mines?
On October 18 2014 13:44 NinjaDuckBob wrote: Hey, Mario, awesome guide! Still relevant I believe to the current game :-)
One question. Using the same logic you use for Thors > Tanks with this, would a Thor/Mine style possibly be more effective than the Tank/Mine style you've recently been doing more of lately? Or does the splash and burst of Tanks, plus the range of them combined with the lightning shield aspect of Widow Mines make still make Tank/Mine superior if you're going for a composition with lots of Mines?
I am not Mario but since I play the Mine/Tank style in every TvP this is my take on it.
In my experience it best not to be dogmatic about the composition. Initially I always go for Mine/Tank plus a few Vikings and Hellions since those synergize well. Mine/Tank are also really good against Colossus/Stalker based compositions.
However if you do not manage to cripple Protoss in early or midgame they often transition into air. In those cases there are two possible outcomes: 1. You manage to hit them right when they transition to air and can kill them with mines alone. A few Carriers or Tempest with some ground support does nothing against mass mine so you win the game. 2. They manage to get a large Tempest count with some ground support. In that case Tanks becomes almost obsolete and you need Raven/Thor/Viking/Hellion/Mine to fight them. You need the Ravens for pdd, Hellions to kill HTs and soak up shots while you run your Mines forward and Thor/Viking to kill the Tempest. Vikings are better vs Tempest but since they are vulnerable to storm it is better to have Thors as well.
These are my personal rules for when to go Mine/Tank and when to go Mine/Thor deepening on my opponents composition. I always use some Vikings to snipe Observers and Hellions to soak up some damage or scout ahead as well.
Mine/Tank Colossus/Stalker HT/Zealot Mass immortals Mass stalkers
Mine/Thor Large Protoss air fleet Mass Archon Few Stalkers
As always it is better to kill Protoss before late game.
Thanks for that guide. How do you deal with ultra late game mass carrier/immortal/HT compositions? Mario didnt give a good answer I think and I cannot seem to beat a Protoss at that stage. The answer for mass tempest is obviously mass raven but mass carrier is much harder to deal with i find.
The key to playing the Mine/Tank style is to understand that Mines are cost efficient but not supply efficient. You need to trade often since Protoss is simply more supply efficient if you let him max out on high gas units.
The immortals can basically be ignored since you cannot use Tanks or Thors against mass Carrier/HT/Immortals. If you can kill the Carriers and HT you will win after remax, if not are dead anyway. So the problem is the Carrier/HT part of the composition.
The best solution is to kill him before he gets there. The second best solution is to trade often so he can never have more than 4-5 Carriers at a time. The third best solution is bum rush mass mines under/close to his Carriers, burrow the mines and blow up all the interceptors. Then use hellions to kill his HTs and focus down his Carriers with the Vikings while dodging storm.
Ok thank you I will try that. Do you build many Ravens against carrier based armies or are HSM useless? Also, do you build ghosts or are they not necessary due to mines?
Ravens are close to useless against Carrier based armies so I build very few in those situations. Ghosts do not synergize at all win the Mine/Tank play style since you need to be aggressive and trade a lot and Ghosts cost too much and slows down your aggression. Plus mines takes care of shields and Tanks and Hellions take care of HT.
On October 18 2014 13:44 NinjaDuckBob wrote: Hey, Mario, awesome guide! Still relevant I believe to the current game :-)
One question. Using the same logic you use for Thors > Tanks with this, would a Thor/Mine style possibly be more effective than the Tank/Mine style you've recently been doing more of lately? Or does the splash and burst of Tanks, plus the range of them combined with the lightning shield aspect of Widow Mines make still make Tank/Mine superior if you're going for a composition with lots of Mines?
I am not Mario but since I play the Mine/Tank style in every TvP this is my take on it.
In my experience it best not to be dogmatic about the composition. Initially I always go for Mine/Tank plus a few Vikings and Hellions since those synergize well. Mine/Tank are also really good against Colossus/Stalker based compositions.
However if you do not manage to cripple Protoss in early or midgame they often transition into air. In those cases there are two possible outcomes: 1. You manage to hit them right when they transition to air and can kill them with mines alone. A few Carriers or Tempest with some ground support does nothing against mass mine so you win the game. 2. They manage to get a large Tempest count with some ground support. In that case Tanks becomes almost obsolete and you need Raven/Thor/Viking/Hellion/Mine to fight them. You need the Ravens for pdd, Hellions to kill HTs and soak up shots while you run your Mines forward and Thor/Viking to kill the Tempest. Vikings are better vs Tempest but since they are vulnerable to storm it is better to have Thors as well.
These are my personal rules for when to go Mine/Tank and when to go Mine/Thor deepening on my opponents composition. I always use some Vikings to snipe Observers and Hellions to soak up some damage or scout ahead as well.
Mine/Tank Colossus/Stalker HT/Zealot Mass immortals Mass stalkers
Mine/Thor Large Protoss air fleet Mass Archon Few Stalkers
As always it is better to kill Protoss before late game.
Thank you for the explanation!
However, I did already know that Thors were the better choice against air. My question was directed more at their anti-ground capabilities, if the same logic about Thors being superior applies with a Mine-heavy composition as it applies with Ghost/Raven, or if the synergistic aspects of Tanks and Mines overshadow that.
On October 18 2014 13:44 NinjaDuckBob wrote: Hey, Mario, awesome guide! Still relevant I believe to the current game :-)
One question. Using the same logic you use for Thors > Tanks with this, would a Thor/Mine style possibly be more effective than the Tank/Mine style you've recently been doing more of lately? Or does the splash and burst of Tanks, plus the range of them combined with the lightning shield aspect of Widow Mines make still make Tank/Mine superior if you're going for a composition with lots of Mines?
I am not Mario but since I play the Mine/Tank style in every TvP this is my take on it.
In my experience it best not to be dogmatic about the composition. Initially I always go for Mine/Tank plus a few Vikings and Hellions since those synergize well. Mine/Tank are also really good against Colossus/Stalker based compositions.
However if you do not manage to cripple Protoss in early or midgame they often transition into air. In those cases there are two possible outcomes: 1. You manage to hit them right when they transition to air and can kill them with mines alone. A few Carriers or Tempest with some ground support does nothing against mass mine so you win the game. 2. They manage to get a large Tempest count with some ground support. In that case Tanks becomes almost obsolete and you need Raven/Thor/Viking/Hellion/Mine to fight them. You need the Ravens for pdd, Hellions to kill HTs and soak up shots while you run your Mines forward and Thor/Viking to kill the Tempest. Vikings are better vs Tempest but since they are vulnerable to storm it is better to have Thors as well.
These are my personal rules for when to go Mine/Tank and when to go Mine/Thor deepening on my opponents composition. I always use some Vikings to snipe Observers and Hellions to soak up some damage or scout ahead as well.
Mine/Tank Colossus/Stalker HT/Zealot Mass immortals Mass stalkers
Mine/Thor Large Protoss air fleet Mass Archon Few Stalkers
As always it is better to kill Protoss before late game.
Thanks for that guide. How do you deal with ultra late game mass carrier/immortal/HT compositions? Mario didnt give a good answer I think and I cannot seem to beat a Protoss at that stage. The answer for mass tempest is obviously mass raven but mass carrier is much harder to deal with i find.
The key to playing the Mine/Tank style is to understand that Mines are cost efficient but not supply efficient. You need to trade often since Protoss is simply more supply efficient if you let him max out on high gas units.
The immortals can basically be ignored since you cannot use Tanks or Thors against mass Carrier/HT/Immortals. If you can kill the Carriers and HT you will win after remax, if not are dead anyway. So the problem is the Carrier/HT part of the composition.
The best solution is to kill him before he gets there. The second best solution is to trade often so he can never have more than 4-5 Carriers at a time. The third best solution is bum rush mass mines under/close to his Carriers, burrow the mines and blow up all the interceptors. Then use hellions to kill his HTs and focus down his Carriers with the Vikings while dodging storm.
I question the statement that Thors cannot be used against that composition, as Mario uses them better than Tanks against Immortals, and I've seen him use Thors to combat Interceptors while Mines run under Carriers and Vikings provide general support and clean-up. Thors are pretty great against Interceptors and laugh at High Templar. I don't doubt that your options work, but I'm not convinced that Thors are a bad choice against the composition, depending on which unit the opponent is heavy on.
I also wouldn't go so far as to say Ravens are useless. If you can get many Seekers off onto the slow Carriers, they can be devastating. If nothing else, it forces them to retreat and allows for more Interceptor kills. I don't know if it's better than other options, though. I say this mostly because it's possible you might already have some Ravens, seeing Stargate play.