|
Introduction:
+ Show Spoiler +Good Day Ladies and Gentlemen of Team Liquid! My name is Tim Clark (aka TangSC) and welcome to a guide on a hyper-aggressive style of Zerg vs Terran - The Triple Barrel Bust. The goal of this guide is to provide a reference for Zerg players who want to ramp up their aggression - and win rate - using three sequenced timing attacks. The Triple Barrel Bust was originally developed in Wings of Liberty to help learning players through the process of setting economic benchmarks, executing timing attacks, and planning effective transitions. This old-school style of sequenced aggression has been revamped in Heart of the Swarm, with special consideration given to new Terran advantages like Reapers and Widow Mines. While this style was originally designed for developing players in WoL, it is now my own preferred style of Zerg vs Terran in HotS. The Triple Barrel Bust consistently works well against Master/Grandmaster Terrans, and it is currently my best and favourite match-up. Here are the three barrels: ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ The First Barrel (5:30-6:00) - 14 SpeedlingsRepel early Terran aggression (Reapers/Marines), delay expansion Command Center, and disrupt opening build order (slight chance of outright winning/crippling).___________________________________________________________________________________________________ The Second Barrel (10:30-11:30*) - 1-2 Overseers, 20 Speed Roaches, 20 Speed Banelings, 20 Speed Zerglings with +1/+1 Upgrades (*Exact count/time may vary)Reset army count, deal economic damage to expansion, force opponent to play defensive, delay third Command Center, and disrupt mid-game build order (good chance of outright winning/crippling).___________________________________________________________________________________________________ The Final Barrel (17:30-18:30*) - 2 Overseers, 5 Ultralisks, 60 Banelings, 60 Cracklings with +3/+3 Upgrades (*Exact count/time may vary)Crush Terran if they attack on Creep, trade well with almost any late-game army, delay/deny fourth Command Center.___________________________________________________________________________________________________ I should point out that while the Triple Barrel Bust draws on the strategies and timings of top-level professionals, it is a style that I personally developed, so it is not currently used at the top-tier tournament level. I firmly believe, however, that an active style is the most entertaining and effective way to improve fundamental Zerg mechanics and multitasking. So if you're asking, " Why should I learn the Triple Barrel Bust instead of a more standard style that professionals use?" then the answer is that the Triple Barrel Bust was not made for a professional player to use, it was made for you to use. A lot of the builds of the top-professionals have periods of heavy droning and passivity, which require next-level scouting and reacting to defend all the possibilities. For learning players, progress with pro-level builds can be slow. Often games turn into early attacks and all-ins, which can turn ladder games into inefficient practice. You will rarely be on the defensive using The Triple Barrel Bust, as you will always try to be the first and constant aggressor; in fact, you'll have the opportunity to counter-attack and punish Terrans who attempt early aggression. The style also taxes your multitasking every single game, because you will always be going for the three barrel busts. Perhaps most important: The Triple Barrel Bust is improved by scouting, responding, creep spread, and map vision; however, it does not require these things to be initially effective. That may seem like a bad thing that you don't have to scout and spread creep, but what I mean is that some builds require you to spread creep to live, others require you to scout to live. The Triple Barrel Bust is different because in the vast majority of games, you will stick to the plan 100% - scouting and spreading creep just helps your execution. To help you learn and master the build, I wrote up a Build Order but more importantly I broke all the steps down into Benchmarks. The Benchmarks will help you mark your economic progress, and pinpoint exactly where macro mistakes are being made. The beautiful thing about this style is that once you have the Build and Benchmarks perfected, you can devote more focus to improving your other mechanics - creep spread, map vision, scouting. Next, we'll look individually at the execution of the Three Barrels. These sections will focus not only on the purpose of each attack, but also how you can improve your execution mechanics (hot keying, rallying, engaging, etc). I really urge you all to read this guide in the order that it is presented, and view the tutorial videos in sequence. Finally, as a favour to me, please take a moment to read about and visit Team All-Inspiration and www.TangStarcraft.com. Thank you all so much for reading! - Tim / TangSC
Build Order
+ Show Spoiler +Note: This is a tentative build order, meaning the steps may change slightly player to player and game to game. While looking over this build order, I advise watching Tutorial 1 which quickly goes through the build and the three busts.Click Here to View the Tutorial: Triple Barrel Bust Overview15Pool 15Gas 17Hatchery 16Queen (Inject/transfer to expansion when she finishes) 18Overlord 18 Zergling Speed (At 100 gas, remove Drones from Geyser) 18-21 Lings 21Queen (Stays in main) 23Overlord 23-26Drones until first inject 26-30Lings (First inject is Zerglings) The First Barrel (5:30-6:00) - 14 Speedlings30Queen (at natural for creep) 32Overlord 32-44Drones (Around 36 Supply, start your 2nd Gas and use your inject-larva to fill the new gas and the gas in main) 44Overlordx2 44-54 Drones 54 Evo Chamberx2 (6:30~, you should have roughly 100-150 gas and be mining off 2 geysers) Drones to 56 56 Double Gas Drone to 60 (Aim for 44+ Drones to fill all four gases with16 Drones per Mineral Field). 60 Upgrade +1 Carapace/+1 Melee 60 Lair, Roach Warren, Baneling Nest (All this should happen around 8:00). 58 - At 58 Supply, you should have fully-saturated 2 bases with all the gas, with at least one extra drone at your natural expansion. This extra Drone can be used to start your third base at the time that you see fit (Before, during, or after the second barrel). The timing of your third is really a stylistic preference - getting it earlier delays your bust slightly but is more economical; getting it later is less economical but lets you hit the earliest and strongest timing. 58 Overlords x5 58-100 21 Roaches (Push out as soon as all Roaches complete) 100 Overlord x2 100-116 Speedlings Morph in 20+ Banelings across the field and bust. The Second Barrel (10:30-11:30) - 2 Overseers, 21 Speed Roaches, 20 Speed Banelings, 20 Speed Zerglings with +1/+1 Upgrades (Exact count/time may vary)Note: Supply becomes very tentative / situational for remainder of this build order, so I will just list the important steps. More details will be given in the "Benchmarks" section.Start a third base (could be started as early as 8:00 or as late as 11:00). Start 2-2 Upgrades and then an Infestation Pit. Infestors and/or Spire are optional. Some players like having 12~ Mutalisks with constantly upgraded air attack to 1) help shut down drops and 2) transition into Broodlords later. Some players like to get mid-game Infestors to use Fungal Growth. Both tech options can be useful, but will delay Ultralisk tech. For this reason, I prefer skip them both and relying on Zerglings/Banelings/Static Defence to shut down drops, then later mix in a few Infestors to fungal for cost-efficient late-game engagements. Choose the approach that appeals to you. Regardless of your stylistic preference, you should aim to fully-saturate your third base, with the gases (66+ Drones). Once you've reached full three-base saturation, you should take a fourth and produce nothing but Speedlings (with some Banelings in case you're pressured). You can produce a macro hatch if your injects/larva production slips. Start your Hive (roughly 13:00-14:00~) This is the period of the game where you're most spread out, so Terran can push and drop you. Plant static defense as necessary (but do not let this cut into your 3-base saturation!), and make sure you're frequently spending your Larva on Zerglings, periodically adding some Banelings. Map vision is also essential (Overlords, Xel-Naga, Spotting Ling). You must have some static defenses at your main and 3rd, and eventually at your fourth. My usual preference is 2 spine/2spore at the main, third, and fourth. Try creeping to your fourth and breaking any impeding rocks to help you defend, and don't be afraid to split your army up at different locations to deal with multi-pronged aggression. Produce some Drones for your 4th (aim for about 75-80 Workers on 4 bases) and get your 7th/8th gases ASAP. Defend your 4th with static defenses (and get some in the main if you haven't yet). When Hive finishes, start Adrenal Glands, Ultralisk Cavern (upgrade Chitinous Plating), 3-3 Upgrades. Produce Ultralisks/Speedlings/Banelings (optional Infestors or Mutalisks). The Final Barrel (17:30-18:30) - 2 Overseers, 5 Ultralisks, 60 Banelings, 60 Cracklings with +3/+3 Upgrades (Exact count/time may vary)If the game continues, try to deny the Terran fourth while holding onto yours. You can also take a 5th. It is possible to mix in Vipers or Broodlords in the very-late stages. Be creative and create your own fourth barrel :D
Benchmarks
+ Show Spoiler +Note: Benchmarks are an effective way to plan your build order steps and mark your progress. In this section, I've created a benchmark for every minute of the game (except the first minute). Naturally, games won't always follow this strict format, but understanding these benchmarks will still help you keep focused in situations where things go wrong. For example, if your opponent throws you off with some sort of super-early Hellion Banshee aggression, you will be forced to deviate from these benchmarks to defend (Extra Queens, Spores, Spinecrawler). Once you have defended, you can still proceed along the listed steps. In an unusual game like this, you may reach your 8 Minute benchmark (fully-saturated 2 bases with +1/+1 researching) at 9 Minutes or later; but the overall sequence stays the same.___________________________________________________________________________________________________ 2:00 Minute Benchmark Pool must be started by 2:00. Try to double-mine the 4 closest patches to your hatchery. ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ 3:00 Minute Benchmark Hatchery must be started by 3:00. Try to maintain double-mining on closer patches when you fill the gas and expand. ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ 4:00 Minute BenchmarkPull your workers out of gas around 3:30 (@ 100Gas for Speed), and ensure every patch in the main is double mining before rallying your Hatchery to the expansion minerals (16/24 Drones). You make Zerglings from 18-21 supply, be sure to immediately hot-key your Zergling eggs in control group 1 (While selecting 3 Zerglings Eggs, Hold Control and Press 1). ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ 5:00 Minute BenchmarkYour first inject should finish by 5:00, which you should put into 4 sets of Zerglings (26-30 supply). You can start your Queen and then an Overlord right away on 30. Immediately add your 4 new sets of Zerglings to control group 1 (While selecting 4 new Zergling Eggs, Hold Shift and Press 1) ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ 6:00 Minute BenchmarkBy 6 Minutes, you should have already started your 2nd gas at the expansion and used your double-inject to fill both your main gas and the new gas. Basically you start your Geyser on 36 at your expansion, then when the injects pop build three Drones in the main rallied into the main geyser, and three Drones at the expansion rallied into the expansion geyser (it times out really nicely so get it down ) You should supply block yourself to reach 44 supply by 6:00, then produce 2 Overlords. ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ 7:00 Minute Benchmark By 7:00, you should be in the mid-50s of supply with creep spreading out past your expansion. You should still be on 2 geysers, with enough gas to start +1/+1 as soon as the Evolution Chambers finish. Also by 7:00, you should have 16 Drones mining at the main and the expansion (ie. 38 Drones.) ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ 8:00 Minute Benchmark This is absolutely the most crucial benchmark - by 8:00 you should have reached 60 supply then produced 1/1 Upgrades, the Lair, the Roach Warren, and the Baneling Nest. Use these structures as part of the wall. 8:00 Minute Benchmark - 2 Hatcheries, 3 Queens, 44 Drones (Fully-Saturating 2 Bases), 4 Gas, 2 Evo Chambers (upgrading 1/1) 5+ Creep Tumours, Roach Warren, Baneling Nest.Also by 8:00, you should have a fully-saturated main and natural with all 4 gas geysers (ie. 44 Drones). This is the economy that you will use to build up your second barrel. The 8 Min mark is the earliest that you can start your third with this build (you can delay as late as 11 Min). ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ 9:00 Minute BenchmarkAfter reaching your ideal economy with the 8 Minute Benchmark, you should produce 5 Overlords (freeing to 100 supply) then to move into double speed upgrades and unit production. Produce the Roaches first, all the way up to 100 supply (intentional supply block). ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ 10:00 Minute BenchmarkAs you produce these Roaches from 58-100 supply, continuously add the new Roach eggs to control group 2 (Hold Shift and Press 2). This is a great time to practice your de-select mechanics (you don't want to add extra Larva to control group 2, only the eggs that will be Roaches. De-select excess Larva before you Hold Shift and Press 1. Assuming your Hatchery is on control group 4 and your Roaches are on control group 1, it should look like this: 4 S R (Select your Hatchery Larva then hold "R" until you can't produce more Roaches). Hold Control + Left Click Eggs (De-Selects excess Larva) Hold Shift + 2 (Adds only the Roach-Eggs to control group 2) ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ 11:00 Minute BenchmarkBy 11:00, your Speed upgrades and your 1/1 should be finished - meaning it's time to bust the Terran front with Roaches, Zerglings, and Banelings. Don't forget to bring an Overseer with this attack for the Widow Mines! Your third base should never be started later than 11:00. ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ 12:00 Minute BenchmarkBy 12:00, your third should be either finished or very close, so you should start Droning. Make sure you do have a control-group with some Zerglings to defend drops BEFORE producing Drones for the third (otherwise just 1 Medivac with Marines can kill your third). You should also start your 2/2 Upgrades and Infestation Pit. ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ 13:00 Minute BenchmarkBy 13:00, your third should be fully saturated (66+ Drones). Creep should be expanding out into the map, and your Hive should be started. You have the option of mixing Spire or Infestors into your mid-game to deal with drops, and static defences can be very helpful as well. ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ 14:00 Minute BenchmarkBy 14:00, you should be about ready to start your Hive upgrades - +3/+3, Ultralisk Cavern, Adrenal Glands. You should also have a lot of extra Overlords, and be producing Speedlings with any excess Larva (I'm not producing Speedlings in the picture above, but in a real game I would be). ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ 15:00 Minute BenchmarkFinally, by 15:00 you should have all of your upgrades on the way - including Chitinous plating. You can start Ultralisk production ASAP, and aim to max-out with Ultralisks, Zerglings, and Banelings before you start any aggression. Your biggest fear is that Terran will execute some sort of multi-pronged push/drop before your Ultralisks come out, and that is why it is so important to produce lots of Speedlings while your Hive is building. Never let Terran get a fourth base, and don't lose yours!
The First Barrel
+ Show Spoiler +
The Second Barrel
+ Show Spoiler +Note: The purpose/usefulness of the Second Barrel Bust (Roach/Ling/Baneling) is explained into Primary and Secondary Objectives. Click Here to View the Tutorial: The Second BarrelClick Here to View the Tutorial: Building Placement (Defensive Purposes)Primary Objectives: 1) Repel Mid-Game Aggression (Mass Hellions, Bio/Mine Push, Hellion/Marauder All-In)Because you’re not saturating your third before unit production, you’re very safe against Terran mid-game attacks/all-ins. In fact, you’re hoping Terran will go for some sort of all-in! Just morph your Banes on creep and prepare for a very cost-efficient engagement.2) Throw Off Terran's Mid-GameIdle Medivacs!! Most often, Terran prefers to put on some aggression in the middle stages - drops, timing attack. The Second Barrel Bust forces him to be defensive. If he drops, he may lose outright because he needs those units to defend. It's actually a mistake if he tries to drop, because you always make an extra set of Zerglings (with some Banes eventually) to defend drops before/while droning your third. 3) Trade Armies You want to have a safe period where you can drone to fully-saturate your third, so you must trade armies and kill his units. The good thing is it’s difficult with so many Roaches/Banes be sure to bring an Overseer so you can reset the Widow Mine count too.___________________________________________________________________________________________________ Secondary Objectives: 1) Deal Economic Damage (SCV Kills) SCV damage is actually a borderline Primary Objective. You should try to connect with his expansion mineral line in a big way, because it's a critical time to do crippling damage.2) Destroy Tech, Production, and Supply BuildingsDestroying add-ons like Reactors and Tech Labs, in addition to supply depots, can really set back a Terran's mid-game - making you safer to squeeze out an even larger late-game lead. The Third Barrel Ultralisks are starting to look bigger and bigger...3) Determine Tech Choice - Mech or Bio?It is impossible for Terran to prevent your push from scouting his unit composition - he needs his units to defend! This helps you plan your mid-late stages (ie. get Range attack for Roaches if he's going mech or prepare for drops if you see reactor'd Starport)
The Third Barrel
+ Show Spoiler +Note: The purpose of the Third Barrel Bust (Ultralisk/Baneling/Crackling) is pretty straight forward; there are really only three objectives.Click Here to View the Tutorial: The Third BarrelObjectives: 1) Defend Late-Game Aggression (Bio/Mine, Marine/Tank/Medivac)This almost goes without saying, but a maxed-out, fully-upgraded force of Ultralisks/Banelings/Cracklings trades well with almost any Terran army. Mix in a few Vipers for blinding cloud, and you're looking at an extremely potent late-game. If he pushes you when your Ultralisks come out, you can destroy it and counter-push immediately. If he's dropping heavily and playing defensive, you may need more finesse.2) Deny Terran attempts at securing a fourth while you hold yours.This is a real key to late game ZvT: Do not let Terran secure his fourth. That's the #1 task of your Ultralisk army. Use static defenses and reinforcing Zerglings to defend your further-apart bases while you make sure he can't hold his. Holding your 4th/5th is just as important as denying his!3) Use all those advantages that you picked up throughout the game and go for a fully upgraded, maxed-out bust!Max out, and put your excess minerals/gas into Banelings. You can get over 100 Banelings for the last push - I've tested it!
Resources/Replays:
+ Show Spoiler +
TangStarcraft:
+ Show Spoiler +Thank you all for reading, and especially for taking the time to click this section. I know that many of you have been following since my first WoL guides and I really appreciate the support over the years! To any newcomers, again I want to thank you for reading and promise that this will not be my last guide! Aside from telling your friends and clan mates about this guide, I'd like to ask you all for three quick favours: 1) Sign-up at www.TangStarcraft.com
- It's 100% free to sign up on my website, where you can find guides and other helpful resources as well as information about how you can become a part of Team All-Inspiration! 2) View my SC2 Coaching Profile- I've been coaching SC2 for nearly three years, and I've worked with students from every continent except Antarctica (I'm offering a discount for Antarcticans to change that! ) 3) Send a replay to a professional caster- Since I first watched a game of SC2 casted by Husky, it has been huge personal goal to have a game casted by a professional. It would be an absolute honour if one of the triple barrel bust replays was casted, so I hope you'll take a moment to help me by sending an email + replay to HuskyReplays@gmail.com, with a quick note explaining why you want to see it casted. Thank you all so much and GL HF! Tim / TangSC
|
Holly crap that's one awesome guide.
|
some things just will never change.
thanks for the guide, my zvt is pretty horrible right know, i will give this a try. looks very promising.
|
lots of info to go through here. Looking forward to trying it out for some different styles vs terran.
|
I do not play zerg enough to understand all the specific timings (I play Terran) but what makes this build different than the standard roach/bane eco aggression after 3 base saturation? Also, I do not see how this stops drops. Can't the terran just mass a crap time of bunkers and mines and play extremely defensive while sending a few units via dropships to disrupt your economy?
|
Speaking as a T the first or second step are enough to make some people leave the game. Really not looking forward to running into this on Ladder
|
Why didn't any of those Terrans have any Tanks? That could have denied everything in the second barrel. Ideally.
I guess it's probably just that you're slightly metagaming and I don't play standard TvZ.
|
I was just thinking about this.
I knew you'd bring the TBB back eventually, lol.
This is really fucking sick, Tang. You've really outdone yourself.
|
On June 13 2013 08:01 WindCalibur wrote: I do not play zerg enough to understand all the specific timings (I play Terran) but what makes this build different than the standard roach/bane eco aggression after 3 base saturation?
This hits much earlier. Here's the rundown. Assuming you go CC first or Reaper FE/1 Rax FE. As your second orbital is morphing, his ling aggression hits. This hits a narrow timing window before or around 6:00 which is before Hellions I believe. If your CC is morphing in Nat and your nat is not walled off, your are severely behind/possibly dead. If you're safe behind your walled main ramp, you're going to pull SCVs/get delayed/thrown off balance. A mid-high masters Zerg can benefit immensely if the Terran gets set behind by 30sec-1min. Good zergling control can also deny the natural unless Terran pulls SCVs with marines and first two hellions. Map control is also essentially dead if anything gets caught.
Second Barrel hits approximately as Terran's 3rd base goes up. Assuming it's Innovation style, this is when Terran aggression starts. Roaches trade very/very well against widow mines. They are very tanky and effective in terms of trading for gas. Let's be realistic, a Widow Mine is essentially a one hit card if there are overseers, and even without them, baneling splash kills them a lot. Forcing marauders out also reduces Terran's effective DPS.
This is also the second barrel, so assuming your first barrel accomplished something(and it should have) Terran will have a weaker force, or a similar force later. Which means you have more time to mine and make units. Essentially you're trying to set up a very cost-efficient engagement, reset Terran's army supply and punish sloppy play. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Third barrel is a lategame comp that seeks to trade effectively with Terran all-game long.
Also, I do not see how this stops drops. Can't the terran just mass a crap time of bunkers and mines and play extremely defensive while sending a few units via dropships to disrupt your economy?
That's an absolute crap Terran reaction. If a Terran is passive and only acting with drops, the Zerg can also just turtle in and simply expand everywhere, spread creep, and essentially out-macro you. Believe it or not, but if the Zerg using this build sees that the Terran is being super passive, he'll just simply have a nice easy time making the 16:00 hive tech transition and absolutely crush you. Infestors are still amazing. Brood Lords are still amazing.
Honestly here is how in my opinion a proper Terran reaction should be.
1. There is nothing you can do about the First Barrel. Accept that fact. It's not necessarily a bad thing. Non-standard play demands non-standard reactions. By getting zerglings out that early Zerg also sacrifices something. Fact is, you pull 3-4 SCVs depending on the ramp. Zerg just sacked 7 potential drones that he could have had 30 seconds earlier. We are completely on time, but losing 3-4 SCVs for 30-60 seconds. Strong sim-city will absolutely demolish this First Barrel. Active scouting with your reaper will also give you some time to prepare.
2. Seize map control back with hellions. This is extremely effective and I highly urge that every Terran practice their Hellion Micro. It can be just amazing. Watch Innovation vs Life Group of Death GSL game 1 and 2 if you don't believe me. Innovation's amazing Hellion micro force out a TON of lings. Which made Innovation's mid game aggression absolutely ludicrous.
3. Consider making tanks. Fact is, if you see that many Roaches you should really consider just making tanks on two factories. Tanks do well against ultras, roaches, and marine-tank has been viable against ling-baneling in WoL. It's even stronger in HotS with the addition of the Widow Mine. Innovation has also displayed that proper tank positioning can do broken amounts of damage. Tanks are extremely cost-efficient against roaches/lings/banelings when paired with Widow Mines and the threat widow mines pose. Of course, it would be more simple to simply make more Marauders and less marines. I also see that as viable. It's all about being cost-efficient.
4. Do not let the Zerg get into that late-game comp! An aggressive zerg is a poor zerg. Roaches are not nearly as mobile as ling/baneling. We can abuse this through drops and massive pressure like Innovation. Imo, this build relies on anti-meta timings that hit harder and earlier, but they also sacrifice economy for that aggression. Less economy means our mid game/late mid-game is better provided that our trades are good. Whether our trades are good depends HEAVILY on scouting. Which is exactly why this build will be so powerful on ladder where poor textbook play is common. Good scouting and proper reactions will destroy this build. Which is why this is not for pro-gamers. I can see this being completely crushed by players with strong sim-city skills and scouting.
|
I think that all those terrans you played against ( i saw the first 3 highlighted vods) were very underpreparted upon not seeing a zergy third base there for like ever. After the weeks and months of 3cc greed terrans should have learned that no third base around 7 Minutes for Zerg means some kinda bust / allin / roach drop etc. So they were all extremly undefended upon normally 100% scouting this with 4 hellions + 2 reaper kinda thing.
Ofc the build is easily fuc'ked up as i do it alot myself but normally with 4-5 Bunkers and constant mine production after 6 hellions you should be easily able to hold your second barrel (and if i as a terren wait for 4 Hellions before moving out your lings wont do anything) and then be in such a dominant macro position that i will have no trouble defending your third and whatever followup barell. So its kinda semi-allin cause you regret taking your third base for a really, really long time and do almost 0 dmg vs terran players that simply prepar for an 99% sure bust cause you do not have that third for a really long time. All you have left are on pair upgrades with no 3rd base.
Edit omg 2am english, sorry :D
So put simple: 1. Barrel does nothing, just lift natural cc repair with 1 scv on each supply depot and wait for 2-4 hellions, depending on your micro. You will most likely lose nothing. (Depots start building after natural cc is finished, according to other posts your 1. barrel hits earlier which will only force a lift of and stop scv production for like 30 seconds till hellions are out.
2. The Second barrel is quote obvious cause you do not have a third base around 7-8 minutes which is 99,99% some kind of Roach / Bane Allin / Bust Push. So after Terran scouts this he just gets up 4-5 bunkers produces non stop widow mines after 6 hellions and simply holds. Afterwards your are so far behind that you will lose the game due to macro. Even if you kill "some" scvs you are still effectivly 2 basing.
3. After having done almost 0 dmg with your first barrel and beeing not able to get dmg done with your second (at least none sevear dmg) you will never be able to get a) a third base or b) a third base + a strong 3rd barrel and consequencly lose the game.
Dunno, i may be wrong on that one but that's how i see it as a kind mid-high master terran playing excklusivly innovation style and facing alot of roach attacks therefore.
Also just one drop to your third should be able to kill it if terran is smart and goes dropping with one medivac cause you drone behind this and if you turn around terran will have more stuff to defend you second barrel.
|
Yeah I really like the concepts you've laid down here (benchmarking, having 3 distinct goals to work towards in a game). I wonder how much more efficient this build could be after dinkering with it a little. Either way it's a lot of really good content and I'm going to play around with it, because why the hell not?
Is the pool first speed meant to help beginning players deal with reaper harassment? I would feel particularly uncomfortable doing that on a 2P map. On a 4P map, yeah it's k. It feels particularly meta though.
What this makes me want to do the most is create some "barrels" of my own, lolol.
|
On June 13 2013 09:29 Qwyn wrote: Yeah I really like the concepts you've laid down here (benchmarking, having 3 distinct goals to work towards in a game). I wonder how much more efficient this build could be after dinkering with it a little. Either way it's a lot of really good content and I'm going to play around with it, because why the hell not?
Is the pool first speed meant to help beginning players deal with reaper harassment? I would feel particularly uncomfortable doing that on a 2P map. On a 4P map, yeah it's k. It feels particularly meta though.
What this makes me want to do the most is create some "barrels" of my own, lolol. I actually did a lesson with a student who really liked the Triple Barrel concept but was attached to hatch-first, and it worked really well as a "Double Barrel Bust". I'm definitely interested in the variations players come up with! I think even a Roach/Hydra/Swarmhost third barrel would work really well if you started +1 Range instead of melee (especially against mech).
I've fallen in love with the Pool-first build, because it's unusual enough to cause issues for most Terran builds, and economical enough not to effect Zerg macro much. At first I did the opening with more Zerglings as a kind of "heavy pressure" kind of build, but practising it more I found it doesn't really need to do direct damage to be effective and provides you with unique opportunities to throw off Terran's build.
I also want to mention that a link to the guide is now on Reddit, if you'd like to help spread the word be sure to comment:
The Triple Barrel Bust on Reddit
|
What if he starts dropping around the time before/while you send out the second barrel?
You're forced into splitting your barrel and thus weakening it or flat out keeping it in your base for defense.
|
On June 13 2013 09:45 BatesCsC wrote: What if he starts dropping around the time before/while you send out the second barrel?
You're forced into splitting your barrel and thus weakening it or flat out keeping it in your base for defense. Good point, a lot of Hellbat drops come as you start producing Roaches and it's important to minimize damage by pulling your Drones away and keeping the 3 Queens focusing the Medivacs. It will delay your bust, but it doesn't prevent you from going for it. He can't keep up constant-drops to the point that it prevents you from pushing, and one thing I neglected to mention in this guide is that you don't have to go for the second barrel - at any point you have the option of Droning your third.
So if, for any reason, you feel the second barrel won't work, you can "fake it" while fully-saturating your third. I usually just go for it every time because that is what I've practised.
|
On June 13 2013 08:01 WindCalibur wrote: I do not see how this stops drops. Can't the terran just mass a crap time of bunkers and mines and play extremely defensive while sending a few units via dropships to disrupt your economy? It works really well against drops actually, and in the tutorial videos I talk a bit about why. Basically he needs all his units to defend, and you always build an extra round of defensive Zerglings and hotkey them on a separate control group before saturating your third. Even against a mass bunker/mine defence, you can usually trade pretty well.
|
On June 13 2013 09:51 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2013 09:45 BatesCsC wrote: What if he starts dropping around the time before/while you send out the second barrel?
You're forced into splitting your barrel and thus weakening it or flat out keeping it in your base for defense. Good point, a lot of Hellbat drops come as you start producing Roaches and it's important to minimize damage by pulling your Drones away and keeping the 3 Queens focusing the Medivacs. It will delay your bust, but it doesn't prevent you from going for it. He can't keep up constant-drops to the point that it prevents you from pushing, and one thing I neglected to mention in this guide is that you don't have to go for the second barrel - at any point you have the option of Droning your third. So if, for any reason, you feel the second barrel won't work, you can "fake it" while fully-saturating your third. I usually just go for it every time because that is what I've practised.
Thanks mate, with that you've definitely sold me on your build.
|
United States352 Posts
to the people saying you cant do anything about barrel one, its easy. 2 marines in a bunker plus your hellions easily hold this with no damage and no wall.
You can undercut barrel two with hellbat drops, which start at 715 or so. A hellbat marauder medi midgame into marine production at the end gives you enough to hold barrel two, even without tanks or mines.
Doesnt seem productive to open pool first to me, especially to power an initial attack that shouldnt do damage.
|
Well, back to getting an early tank out to hopefully blind counter most of this, been playing too greedy recently :x
|
This style sounds pretty sweet. I say style because this seems really flexible and less all in than a lot of roach baneling plays. also, Your guides are IMO the most organized and thought out on tl, the work you put into them is incredible.
|
Don't have time right now, but will definitely look into this later. Looks very well done and promising.
|
Used to dislike your wol guides but this one is actually very well written and I really hope by playing aggressive, terrans would hesitant doing double drops everywhere
|
I just won with the first barrel against reaper into 3CC opening. This seems like fun!
|
Hi Tang, Thanks a lot for this! It looks great and I just want to say I appreciate the tons of time these guides must take to write, so seriously, Thanks
For me the best part here is the benchmarks, those help so much in seeing where I need to improve on my basics and give a real good anchor point. Great stuff!
I was wondering if you can see anyway to incorporate SH play into this style in any way, I'm really fascinated by the SH as a unit and would love to add them to all my match-ups. Do you think there is any room for them here? I'm thinking maybe SH drops after the 2nd barrel would be interesting. Give Terran a taste of their own medicine.
|
Much appreciated for this guide. Although I play terran, learning good timings for other races are very helpful to both my play and spectating experience.
|
hey tang. really like your 2nd and 3rd barrel attack but isnt your opening pretty bad since yes it hardcounters reaper openings but is horrible vs highground CC first flash-style or 2 rax which (beneath reaper openings) are the most common T openers right now. so maybe a standard 15h 16p 17g will be a much better opening and maybe do a ling bane bust vs CC first/1 rax FE as your first barrel or hatchtech roach ling (bane) vs reaper as first barrel.
overall awesome and superdetailled guide. love your in the face style zerg :D
|
United Kingdom20149 Posts
|
hey tang thanks for the guide! do you mind explaining why youre getting pool first over hatch first? for earlier speeD?
|
I've always preferred aggressive play over passive play, so I'm guessing this is a pretty good guide, nice post.
|
Tang you are the man!
I followed your streaming and coaching regarding this build already! I use it with quite some success in my own play.
The first barrel is weaker with a bunker, but most payer put the bunker at the ramp, so you just I run by. What annoys me more is if the bunker is close to the mineral line. In that case i just park my lings outside of bunker's range and prevent mining for a little awhile....passive damage. I leave when the Hellions pop up. EZ PZ.
Hellbat drops are annoying until I get my roaches out. So good Overlord spreed is crucial. They are no problem if scouted early enough. Build lings at home when moving out!!! Later on I am not shy on using static defense.
It never happened to me that the 2 barrel did no damage at all. Tanks can not stop me from doing damage nor do mines. However, i try not to loose my whole army. Think of the 80/20 Pareto law. The first 80% of damage are quickly done, then the last 20% you insisted on adding will cost u much more than the first 80%. So retreat once your DPS is getting weaker.
Tang shows a nasty little trick in one of his tuts. He moves in with his 20 roaches and most of his banes, but behind them he pulls a little train of banes. The Terran has to focus fire the banes in the first push (or he looses just everything), and the second train just rolls into the mineral his line BOOOOM
While you retreat your 3 base is up and running.
Crucial is to build lings at home when moving out and never ever forget your Overseer...I also morph one to stay at home with my lings in control group three...
Keep it up!
|
On June 13 2013 10:33 rikter wrote: to the people saying you cant do anything about barrel one, its easy. 2 marines in a bunker plus your hellions easily hold this with no damage and no wall.
You can undercut barrel two with hellbat drops, which start at 715 or so. A hellbat marauder medi midgame into marine production at the end gives you enough to hold barrel two, even without tanks or mines.
Doesnt seem productive to open pool first to me, especially to power an initial attack that shouldnt do damage.
An aggressive build is meant to forward your economy by slowing theirs, and this hits before your hellions are out especially if you built a bunker, and even if you did build a bunker, on very few maps can the bunker cover both your expansion and your ramp.
I dislike how you put it in such a snide way as if he did no research into this and played against pure scrubs. When Leenocks 3-3 ultras came out, people like you were writing posts like, "omg, 2 base totally kills this straight out... duh" and it didn't and it doesn't. If you have a deeper understanding of the game you can write a better post than: "this simply dies to this".
|
|
Adding burrow would be an insane help to this build. Would you rather have 4 more Banelings or 20 burrow Roaches vs. stuff like Widow Mines?
|
On June 13 2013 22:41 Mahtasooma wrote: Adding burrow would be an insane help to this build. Would you rather have 4 more Banelings or 20 burrow Roaches vs. stuff like Widow Mines? Burrow is an awesome addition because you can burrow a ling at his third/fourth right after the bust, delaying his expansion. Combine that with an Overlord spewing creep and you're golden. Or you could burrow some Banelings at his third mineral line
|
On June 13 2013 16:06 IcemanAsi wrote: I was wondering if you can see anyway to incorporate SH play into this style in any way, I'm really fascinated by the SH as a unit and would love to add them to all my match-ups. Do you think there is any room for them here? I'm thinking maybe SH drops after the 2nd barrel would be interesting. Give Terran a taste of their own medicine.
Yeah I think Swarmhost transitions could work really well, just get +1/+1 Range/Carapace (instead of melee) and put down your 2/2 and infestation pit and maybe hydra den as you push. Then fully-saturate your third and start massing Swarm Host / Roach / Hydra.
|
On June 13 2013 17:18 NEEDZMOAR wrote: do you mind explaining why youre getting pool first over hatch first? for earlier speeD? The earlier Queen + Speed lets you hit your 14Speedling timing as early as possible, and it's not a huge commitment to your own economy. The pool-first opening also shuts down all Reaper builds extremely easily.
|
That being said about the burrow, I think what's totally not used atm is Overlord Speed to soak up widow mine shots. Having just 2-4 Overlords with your army sending them in first would leave all (!) your units unharmed from mines in the first place. 200 HP for 100 minerals is nothing to sneeze at.
|
On June 13 2013 16:26 Decendos wrote: isnt your opening pretty bad since yes it hardcounters reaper openings but is horrible vs highground CC first flash-style or 2 rax which (beneath reaper openings) are the most common T openers right now. I had the same thought when I started using the opening, but in my personal experience there haven't been many (if any) games where Terran ends up much ahead after the opening, even if the only damage is a delayed expansion. There are other advantages to having those 14 Speedlings out in the midgame, too - often when Hellions move out there's an opportunity to counter-attack and kill some workers/force a retreat.
|
On June 13 2013 22:52 Mahtasooma wrote: That being said about the burrow, I think what's totally not used atm is Overlord Speed to soak up widow mine shots. Having just 2-4 Overlords with your army sending them in first would leave all (!) your units unharmed from mines in the first place. 200 HP for 100 minerals is nothing to sneeze at. I forgot to mention Overlords tanking Mines in the guide, though one of the tutorials shows that. Especially effective for the last bust, but could be worked into the second one as well.
|
Do you need to absolutely save all 14 of your lings with the first bust? So instead of really committing to an attack with it, just try to poke at the reactor a bit or delay mining, then run off before any of them die?
|
I really do believe in that mutas should be made to reject the mid-game drops. Either that or a ridiculous amount of static defense, which actually is viable imo.
|
On June 13 2013 23:12 ImperialFist wrote: I really do believe in that mutas should be made to reject the mid-game drops. Either that or a ridiculous amount of static defense, which actually is viable imo. Yeah you can definitely mix-in Mutalisks, in fact when your hive is building you'll often sit with about 800-1200 gas that could go into 8-12 Mutalisks to defend drops. I prefer the static defence/split up army to deal with drops, but working in Lair tech of your choice is absolutely an option - just know that it will delay your third bust.
|
On June 13 2013 23:03 jbuck92 wrote: Do you need to absolutely save all 14 of your lings with the first bust? So instead of really committing to an attack with it, just try to poke at the reactor a bit or delay mining, then run off before any of them die? That's a good question, and it depends. If your Lings are attacking the reactor/depots and he has 3 marines mauling you, then that's a clear mistake. But if you're able to pick off 2-3 workers and actually kill the reactor, then it's a fair trade. If you can actually get in the main and mix it up with that mineral line, then you're in great shape moving forward. You always have the option, having lost all those Zerglings, to build a Spine Crawler beside your 2 Evolution Chambers (though I'd skip this 95% of games, instead relying on the expansion wall-off + Queens).
|
No offense but I don't see this as being viable. First off, your zerglings will die at the wall, especially as oons the 2 hellions arrive. You're not gonna end the game with 14 lings unless your opponent is total $h!". Additionally, roaches against terrain is suicide for all the reasons you just pointed out. Tanks mines and bio all do massive eng to roaches. This build also seems to have a complete and total lack of drop defense. Terrain will just make a tank or two and your roaches will be worthless as a harrassing unit. I watched cats try something similar several times yesterday and got wrecked. Last two weeks I tried different roach pressures vs terrain and never won a game with them.
I don't see this as a viable strategy vs tarranz. What stops drops? The roaches are gonna force tanks or marauders if they aren't crushed by marine medivac alone, which means your late game ultras are gonna get wrecked.
Thanks but no thanks. Back to the drawing board pls.
|
On June 13 2013 22:57 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2013 16:26 Decendos wrote: isnt your opening pretty bad since yes it hardcounters reaper openings but is horrible vs highground CC first flash-style or 2 rax which (beneath reaper openings) are the most common T openers right now. I had the same thought when I started using the opening, but in my personal experience there haven't been many (if any) games where Terran ends up much ahead after the opening, even if the only damage is a delayed expansion. There are other advantages to having those 14 Speedlings out in the midgame, too - often when Hellions move out there's an opportunity to counter-attack and kill some workers/force a retreat.
hm imo vs decent players that play well you will be very behind economically vs CC first and do up to no damage and outright die vs good 2 rax play. what i do right now is to go hatch first on 4 player maps and from that on transition into your build and go for 10 dronescout on 2 player maps and either go hatch first into your build or do your build vs reaper first. works out pretty nicely.
|
Truly the guide of our times. I'll have to check out the replays to convince me that barrel one (the speedling attack) is worth doing. seems easy to shut down, depending on their build.
the roach/bane attack mid game is obviously strong. If you can scout them going tank before committing to the attack seems like it might be worth either going for a muta based macro game or a variation of barrel 2 with drop (like artosis is always talking about). Haven't had games go long enough to experiment with barrel 3.
|
On June 14 2013 00:30 VerneV wrote: No offense but I don't see this as being viable. First off, your zerglings will die at the wall, especially as oons the 2 hellions arrive. You're not gonna end the game with 14 lings unless your opponent is total $h!". Additionally, roaches against terrain is suicide for all the reasons you just pointed out. Tanks mines and bio all do massive eng to roaches. This build also seems to have a complete and total lack of drop defense. Terrain will just make a tank or two and your roaches will be worthless as a harrassing unit. I watched cats try something similar several times yesterday and got wrecked. Last two weeks I tried different roach pressures vs terrain and never won a game with them.
I don't see this as a viable strategy vs tarranz. What stops drops? The roaches are gonna force tanks or marauders if they aren't crushed by marine medivac alone, which means your late game ultras are gonna get wrecked.
Thanks but no thanks. Back to the drawing board pls.
Agree roaches are just so shitty that even innovation loses to them, because hes too confused in seeing them. Same with all the terran opponents idra/suppy/symbol/gowser play against.
My master opponents must be realy shitty to die to my 14 lings and/or my roaches and/or banes. I have at least 4-6 different builds i can kill terran with roaches, banes or lings. Edit. Terrans dont alweys die to the lings, banes or roaches, but they are so behind there is no way for them to recover.
These builds are not builds i just win ones in while. I had 70% win rate last season and 75% right now. The build im best with has lot of similarityes with this quide, but i have made my self after much trial and error. Tangs build looks solid, but i like my own variant of the idea more and have more practice knowledge about it.
Meaby you should get back to drawing boards why they dont work for you.
hm imo vs decent players that play well you will be very behind economically vs CC first and do up to no damage and outright die vs good 2 rax play. what i do right now is to go hatch first on 4 player maps and from that on transition into your build and go for 10 dronescout on 2 player maps and either go hatch first into your build or do your build vs reaper first. works out pretty nicely.
What 2 rax are we talking about? Why would you die to 2 racks with 15 pool? As tang alredy stated the pool first is optional and i like it in the match up over hatch first at moment. Against terran that dosent scv scout you can even go for baneling bust instead of just ling agression, but there is good chance of doing damage with just lings if terran does not scv scout.
With the builds tang has when you get more knowledge you can actuly skip steps to get next step faster. For instance if you see that they are not gona take low ground expansion you just make drones instead lings, you may be behind, but not as much as sending lings against wall (just having the option to presure makes good terrans hestitate taking the expansion before hellions are out). Other posibility is to overlord scout before second attack to just skip it and go for faster 2/2 and infestation pit.
|
Hi Tang I am a big fan of your guides
I tried this one today and notices some little mistakes while doing it.
You forgot to put metabolic boost timing in build order At 58 supply, you should add to produce a lot of overlords to produce the 21 roachs (I was supply blocked because I did not produce overlords in time)
|
I almost reported this for "Fucking awesome". Not sure if that's something we should be doing.
Anyway, you put a fuckton of effort into these guides and videos, Tang, and I'm always so immensely pleased to read your posts. Keep em comin, dude. This stuff is immensely helpful <3
EDIT: Wouldn't the early pool decimate 2 rax pressure? I don't know why these questions keep coming up. 2 rax is meant as a direct counter to the classic hatch first, no?
|
Yea as an ex-diamond protoss (still not good I know) and a now struggling gold zerg, the benchmark layouts should help me improve my mechanics in general. Cheers, thanks for the effort and responses to questions!
|
United States352 Posts
On June 13 2013 21:11 konicki wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2013 10:33 rikter wrote: to the people saying you cant do anything about barrel one, its easy. 2 marines in a bunker plus your hellions easily hold this with no damage and no wall.
You can undercut barrel two with hellbat drops, which start at 715 or so. A hellbat marauder medi midgame into marine production at the end gives you enough to hold barrel two, even without tanks or mines.
Doesnt seem productive to open pool first to me, especially to power an initial attack that shouldnt do damage. An aggressive build is meant to forward your economy by slowing theirs, and this hits before your hellions are out especially if you built a bunker, and even if you did build a bunker, on very few maps can the bunker cover both your expansion and your ramp. I dislike how you put it in such a snide way as if he did no research into this and played against pure scrubs. When Leenocks 3-3 ultras came out, people like you were writing posts like, "omg, 2 base totally kills this straight out... duh" and it didn't and it doesn't. If you have a deeper understanding of the game you can write a better post than: "this simply dies to this".
Youre missing my point: you aren't really slowing down much of anything if the attack does no damage. Im currently doing a reactor hellion expand into hellbat drops vs zerg and I can promise you that when this attack hits I will have my expo up, the bunker with the 2 marines and 4 hellions by the time the attack hits. My armory goes down at 5:15, which means the factory is finished at 4:10, with the reactor on shortly after. Hellions build in 30s, I could actually have 6 hellions when you hit if I chose to delay hellbats. I will have no wall either, so feel free to run in if you want: theres nothing that those speedlings are going to do. I give up a little bit of my scv count by delaying my expo a small amount in getting factory first, but since Im trading those few scvs for quick hellbats its really not a problem to make up that difference with the hellbat drops, both because I will either kill drones directly or force them into static D. This is an example of how an aggressive opening forwards my economy by slowing down his. The difference between the two is that my attack is much more likely to do damage than this 530 speedling attack. The bunker in question can cover my ramp and a portion of the mineral patches. It doesn't need 100% coverage on the nat because I can use the hellions to make up the difference. I believe this is possible on every single map, with the bunker placed somewhere between the geyser and the ramp.
The second barrel gets mentioned only because I know the hellbat timing; basically, there are some pretty strong harass options that this build would be hurt by in the midgame, and its worth noting that they will hit before you have your second barrel ready to go, which disrupts your timing. Something to consider.
I read and re-read my post and I dont see anything snide at all. It was specifically in response to the guy who said there was nothing you can do against the first barrel and to just accept it, when in fact there are plenty of options to stop it like this, and they arent even all that hard. This isnt theory crafting either, people do stuff like this to me all the time, its easily held. If the attack doesn't stand to do much damage, Z would be better off just investing in 7-8 more drones instead of the lings. Barrel 2 and 3 can be more effective, but with that much gas invested into banelings youd better do something big with them. I make no comment on the players he plays; Ive botched against speedling attacks before by not paying attention to my hellions, and if you lose the hellions you really are in trouble...but again, it aint hard to not lose the hellions if you pay just the tiniest bit of attention. I also make no comments about "this simply dies to this". Holding the attack is in no way a guarantee of victory, but its not hard to hold.
Basically this is something that might work up to gold league as intended, but beyond that youre probably better off going hatch first, and not doing the early ling attack. Put it this way: If you would in fact have been able to kill or cripple the other guy with 14 speedlings at 530, youre probably in good shape to kill him with a slightly later, more powerful attack, so its not like making the drones instead of the lings is giving up some great opportunity.
|
On June 14 2013 04:13 unarcher wrote: You forgot to put metabolic boost timing in build order At 58 supply, you should add to produce a lot of overlords to produce the 21 roachs (I was supply blocked because I did not produce overlords in time)
You're right I forgot those, thanks for pointing it out. Updated build to include Zergling speed at 18 and 5 Overlords at 58.
|
I like the thinking put into the 1-2-3 punch style you have here. It is not a for sure type of build but it does force a macro Terran to be honest and know how to defend several strong timings. It IS a very meta-gaming build as it approaches the matchup from the point of view of someone looking at the most common strategies and finding a build that while might be bad vs a range of strategies but is good vs the very common ones.
Some Terran Tips:
The biggest issue you can have vs a style like this is to lose a lot to the first barrel. The two most common openings that a macro Terran would be using are CC first and Reaper FE (both into reactor hellions and 3rd CC).
If you scout pool first from any player you should be building a bunker asap in a very defensive position in your natural and, ideally, be building your CC in your main. If you opened with a Reapers you should pull them back as soon as possible to help defend. They are of no use to you dead and the fact that he is on one base is enough information for the time being. I, personally, would have a bunker at the top of my ramp as well as one in my natural and I would be adding additional high hit point buildings that my build normally needs in a defensive fashion in case of a one or two base bane bust. Once I have 4-6 hellions, I would push out and take my natural and regain map control for the time being.
The second barrel is something that you should scout before it hits. Ideally, you have tanks. I am a biomine player and I will be getting tanks vs this. Additionally, extra bunkers and good sim city are needed. I can't stress enough how mines will not cut it (most of the time) as the splash damage in your army if the zerg goes for this timing. Honestly, vs pool first openings I would be very likely to go for some kind of 1-2 tank before hellion transition (retaking my natural once I have a tank instead of once I have hellions) as a pool first player is almost always going for a second timing if the first does nothing.
The last barrel is really just this builds refined way to end a game that the zerg is ahead in. If you take no real damage from the first two barrels this barrel will be very easy. If you trade with the zerg it can be a bit more even and if he does a lot of free damage to you it will be easy for him. The goal you should have as a Terran player vs a player that is going for this kind of end game will be to hit a pre-hive timing push. Be active in scouting so that you do not miss when the Hive starts. You should be aiming to do some kind of tank bio push that hits at the earliest at 170-180 food. Keep scanning or using a medivac to check for a hive and do NOT push if the hive has not started yet.
To put in the most simple way of thinking:
1. Scout pool first => 2 Bunkers, 2nd CC in main, Tank before Hellions
2. Take Natural then poke with Hellions and maybe Scan => see roach bane => add 2 more bunkers and strong sim city in natural and 3rd and add more tanks
3. Scout for Hive timing while adding more tanks and upgrades and production etc etc => see Hive start => push asap once I have 6 tanks OR see later hive (after you have 170 food) => push once hive starts and maxed
|
I like the style of the guide and there's so much detail. Thanks Tang!
Question - it seems that this would be significantly weaker versus heavy tank play given the units involved. How do you deal with tanks?
|
On June 14 2013 04:38 rikter wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2013 21:11 konicki wrote:On June 13 2013 10:33 rikter wrote: to the people saying you cant do anything about barrel one, its easy. 2 marines in a bunker plus your hellions easily hold this with no damage and no wall.
You can undercut barrel two with hellbat drops, which start at 715 or so. A hellbat marauder medi midgame into marine production at the end gives you enough to hold barrel two, even without tanks or mines.
Doesnt seem productive to open pool first to me, especially to power an initial attack that shouldnt do damage. An aggressive build is meant to forward your economy by slowing theirs, and this hits before your hellions are out especially if you built a bunker, and even if you did build a bunker, on very few maps can the bunker cover both your expansion and your ramp. I dislike how you put it in such a snide way as if he did no research into this and played against pure scrubs. When Leenocks 3-3 ultras came out, people like you were writing posts like, "omg, 2 base totally kills this straight out... duh" and it didn't and it doesn't. If you have a deeper understanding of the game you can write a better post than: "this simply dies to this". Youre missing my point: you aren't really slowing down much of anything if the attack does no damage. Im currently doing a reactor hellion expand into hellbat drops vs zerg and I can promise you that when this attack hits I will have my expo up, the bunker with the 2 marines and 4 hellions by the time the attack hits. My armory goes down at 5:15, which means the factory is finished at 4:10, with the reactor on shortly after. Hellions build in 30s, I could actually have 6 hellions when you hit if I chose to delay hellbats. I will have no wall either, so feel free to run in if you want: theres nothing that those speedlings are going to do. I give up a little bit of my scv count by delaying my expo a small amount in getting factory first, but since Im trading those few scvs for quick hellbats its really not a problem to make up that difference with the hellbat drops, both because I will either kill drones directly or force them into static D. This is an example of how an aggressive opening forwards my economy by slowing down his. The difference between the two is that my attack is much more likely to do damage than this 530 speedling attack. The bunker in question can cover my ramp and a portion of the mineral patches. It doesn't need 100% coverage on the nat because I can use the hellions to make up the difference. I believe this is possible on every single map, with the bunker placed somewhere between the geyser and the ramp. The second barrel gets mentioned only because I know the hellbat timing; basically, there are some pretty strong harass options that this build would be hurt by in the midgame, and its worth noting that they will hit before you have your second barrel ready to go, which disrupts your timing. Something to consider. I read and re-read my post and I dont see anything snide at all. It was specifically in response to the guy who said there was nothing you can do against the first barrel and to just accept it, when in fact there are plenty of options to stop it like this, and they arent even all that hard. This isnt theory crafting either, people do stuff like this to me all the time, its easily held. If the attack doesn't stand to do much damage, Z would be better off just investing in 7-8 more drones instead of the lings. Barrel 2 and 3 can be more effective, but with that much gas invested into banelings youd better do something big with them. I make no comment on the players he plays; Ive botched against speedling attacks before by not paying attention to my hellions, and if you lose the hellions you really are in trouble...but again, it aint hard to not lose the hellions if you pay just the tiniest bit of attention. I also make no comments about "this simply dies to this". Holding the attack is in no way a guarantee of victory, but its not hard to hold. Basically this is something that might work up to gold league as intended, but beyond that youre probably better off going hatch first, and not doing the early ling attack. Put it this way: If you would in fact have been able to kill or cripple the other guy with 14 speedlings at 530, youre probably in good shape to kill him with a slightly later, more powerful attack, so its not like making the drones instead of the lings is giving up some great opportunity. thanks! You said it way better than I could've. I know from my games vs terran last season the early ling pressure is always worse than an economy build.
|
thanks! You said it way better than I could've. I know from my games vs terran last season the early ling pressure is always worse than an economy build.
That is just so not true... Meaby its not greatest against cc first, but it is not unusable against it. Against reaper expand other hands its great as well as some of the gimmicky openings like 2 racks or 8/8/8 which are FREE win. Not every terran scv scouts, have good building placement or when they scout the pool first overreact and you can scout this and still be ahead/even. For enyone lower than master the disadvantage wont even matter that much, life fucking won games after going 10p which does nothing.
By the way i watched your stream and it dosent realy matter if you do hatch first or pool first the problems in your play are else where.
|
How do you recommend dealing with an engineering bay block in your natural when using this build?
|
Hatch-first is the more usual/standard approach to opening ZvT, and I don't think anyone is saying this will change any time soon. Still, let's not be so quick to condemn pool-first openings. There are different openings with different advantages, some players like Life even 10pool in ZvT. The worst-case scenario with any pool-first aggression is that you do slightly less than equalizing damage, in which case you move into the mid game at a slight disadvantage.
|
On June 14 2013 07:09 jbuck92 wrote: How do you recommend dealing with an engineering bay block in your natural when using this build? Good question, it's annoying if you don't get on it right away. If an SCV comes that early, get a second Drone down there asap to prevent him from getting any extra time spent building the Engineering Bay. Also, you can send the expansion-Drone a little early so that if you see an SCV you can build the hatch on 16 instead of 17 just to be safe. But with 2 Drones, even if he starts a structure you shouldn't be delayed more than 15 seconds on the hatchery (and the expansion hatchery timing does not effect your first barrel since all those Zerglings are built from the main larva).
|
On June 14 2013 05:26 vaderseven wrote: 1. Scout pool first => 2 Bunkers, 2nd CC in main, Tank before Hellions
2. Take Natural then poke with Hellions and maybe Scan => see roach bane => add 2 more bunkers and strong sim city in natural and 3rd and add more tanks
3. Scout for Hive timing while adding more tanks and upgrades and production etc etc => see Hive start => push asap once I have 6 tanks OR see later hive (after you have 170 food) => push once hive starts and maxed
I think the tanks are perhaps an overreaction.
Here's SeleCT crushing this build on ladder today (game starts at ~2:37:00): http://www.twitch.tv/selectkr/b/416413978
|
This is so awesome! For the longest time I had really been wanting a 'build' for Zerg. It makes it a lot easier to learn a race when you have a sort of guide to your engagement philosophy and the purpose of your build. Although in the long run I would intend to learn a very reactive style for Zerg, this really helps to give a framework while I learn the flow of the race.
|
United States352 Posts
On June 14 2013 06:50 SacredCoconut wrote:Show nested quote +thanks! You said it way better than I could've. I know from my games vs terran last season the early ling pressure is always worse than an economy build. That is just so not true... Meaby its not greatest against cc first, but it is not unusable against it. Against reaper expand other hands its great as well as some of the gimmicky openings like 2 racks or 8/8/8 which are FREE win. Not every terran scv scouts, have good building placement or when they scout the pool first overreact and you can scout this and still be ahead/even. For enyone lower than master the disadvantage wont even matter that much, life fucking won games after going 10p which does nothing. By the way i watched your stream and it dosent realy matter if you do hatch first or pool first the problems in your play are else where.
I gave up scv scouting in tvz, its a waste of an scv. I wall off my main in time to stop 6/10 pool, and hellions are out in time to scout everything else. I stopped using reapers for similar reasons. Much like life, an 888 or 2 rax terran has a window to recover when they spot the one base, but yes, this build would shut the attack down, and make it harder on T.
Just want to also comment that the guide itself is really well done, and its nice that it gives benchmarks and such for all phases of the game. The three barrel philosophy is good. it gets people thinking about complete games.
|
On June 14 2013 07:12 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2013 07:09 jbuck92 wrote: How do you recommend dealing with an engineering bay block in your natural when using this build? Good question, it's annoying if you don't get on it right away. If an SCV comes that early, get a second Drone down there asap to prevent him from getting any extra time spent building the Engineering Bay. Also, you can send the expansion-Drone a little early so that if you see an SCV you can build the hatch on 16 instead of 17 just to be safe. But with 2 Drones, even if he starts a structure you shouldn't be delayed more than 15 seconds on the hatchery (and the expansion hatchery timing does not effect your first barrel since all those Zerglings are built from the main larva).
Thanks! When I tried this build earlier today, I didn't catch the e-bay block in time so he got it probably 90% of the way complete. That really set me back timing wise. I should've delayed my roach push a few minutes, since his e-bay block sets him back economically a bit as well. Instead I still hit at about 10:30 or 11, but with only half the force I could have.
|
I'm not good enough to comment on the content of the guide, but everyone should agree that this is a seriously professional guide. I emailed HuskyReplays@gmail.com and asked him to cast one of your games. Thanks Tang!
|
On June 14 2013 04:46 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2013 04:13 unarcher wrote: You forgot to put metabolic boost timing in build order At 58 supply, you should add to produce a lot of overlords to produce the 21 roachs (I was supply blocked because I did not produce overlords in time)
You're right I forgot those, thanks for pointing it out. Updated build to include Zergling speed at 18 and 5 Overlords at 58.
I didn't miss your point, you just didn't bother making one until one was asked for.
|
the barrels seem to have great potential to do dmg vs no or less siege tanks, BUT there is a huge issue at gm level play. as soon as a terran realises whats up, he will tripple drop you during the second barrel while u move out and defend in the nat or sac it and go to the main. and no, 3 queens and a ling bane squad arent enough to deal with that unfortunately. you also cannot afford due the low eco to leave more stuff at home or/and build static d.
i think the build would be better with no barrel one but stronger eco instead to shutdown such counteraggression easily, havent tried that so far tho
|
On June 14 2013 07:24 netherh wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2013 05:26 vaderseven wrote: 1. Scout pool first => 2 Bunkers, 2nd CC in main, Tank before Hellions
2. Take Natural then poke with Hellions and maybe Scan => see roach bane => add 2 more bunkers and strong sim city in natural and 3rd and add more tanks
3. Scout for Hive timing while adding more tanks and upgrades and production etc etc => see Hive start => push asap once I have 6 tanks OR see later hive (after you have 170 food) => push once hive starts and maxed
I think the tanks are perhaps an overreaction. Here's SeleCT crushing this build on ladder today (game starts at ~2:37:00): http://www.twitch.tv/selectkr/b/416413978
I should have been more specific in that I favor a 3 CC 2 Eng bay style. Select was going for a 2 CC build in that game. Totally different reactions are needed when doing that.
Select's choice to add more production before the 3rd CC allows him to be more aggressive with the hellions than a 3 CC player would be, and he kills alot of drones. A 3 CC player would scout with the hellions then use them to ensure his 3rd can land early. Select can defend his 2 bases with pure bunkers while a 3 CC player would want a 3rd CC to add income to support the production base he is going for. Basically, Selects build was more powerful when the 2nd barrel would hit than standard Terran play. Select's strs as a player help to explain his choice there... he is amazing with his unit control so he will always be favoring builds that allow for more aggression.
To say you think tanks is an over-reaction assumes alot about the playstyle tbh. I assumed as well, but assuming 3 CC and 2 Eng bays is kinda acceptable because that is standard play. Tang's build is BEST vs the 3 CC 2 Eng play as well... thats why I outlined what should be a good course of thinking when playing that style.
edit-
in reply to below post:
On June 14 2013 17:53 Azerbaijan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2013 07:24 netherh wrote:On June 14 2013 05:26 vaderseven wrote: 1. Scout pool first => 2 Bunkers, 2nd CC in main, Tank before Hellions
2. Take Natural then poke with Hellions and maybe Scan => see roach bane => add 2 more bunkers and strong sim city in natural and 3rd and add more tanks
3. Scout for Hive timing while adding more tanks and upgrades and production etc etc => see Hive start => push asap once I have 6 tanks OR see later hive (after you have 170 food) => push once hive starts and maxed
I think the tanks are perhaps an overreaction. Here's SeleCT crushing this build on ladder today (game starts at ~2:37:00): http://www.twitch.tv/selectkr/b/416413978 I agree that SeleCT crushed that zerg but the 2nd attack came nearly a minute and half late. I kind of feel like if it had been on time SeleCT may have still held with those defenses but taken enough damage for the game to go on to an even late game. It came late because Select was doing a 2 Base style after CC first into reactor hellions. Hellions in that style are much more able to be spent in harass, as such, Select utilized them correctly by killing alot of drones with them.
A more normal style of Terran would have had to conserve the hellions as they aer the only units you will have when you try to land your 3rd CC (all your other buildings are creating add-ons so you litterally have almost nothing besides the hellions as your 3rd lands.
Everything about that game was because it was a slightly less standard play from the Terran. You must understand that 'slight' differences in Terran build orderings (in this case CC Rax Gas Fac Reactor Rax Rax vs CC Rax Gas Fac Reactor CC Eng Eng Rax Rax) create completely different goals for the units created. COMPLETELY. Select understands this and thats why, no other reason, he plays that game out that way.
An interesting question might be to ask yourself what the Zerg should have done instead during that game. I think a Zerg needs to ID the difference between the Macro 3CC 2 Eng build and the Agro 2CC 3 Rax/1Fac/1Port build. A well-timed scout of the natural can do that by counting units or saccing an overlord right as the first hellions appear can as well. If you scout a 3 CC build you want to hit the 2nd Barrel fast and without that heavy of defense going into it. If you scout a 2CC build you want to make sure you are getting out some units quick enough to defend any timings.
Select runs in with his 6 hellions at 830 though he could have done so a bit earlier. He correctly checked for a 3rd base first and then ran them in so his timing is the correct one but another player could incorrectly choose to hit a stronger timing by skipping that scout (kinda blind soft countering the zergs choice to not expand). The build at around that time is as follows:
54 Evo Chamberx2 (6:30~, you should have roughly 100-150 gas and be mining off 2 geysers) Drones to 56 56 Double Gas Drone to 60 (Aim for 44+ Drones to fill all four gases with16 Drones per Mineral Field). 60 Upgrade +1 Carapace/+1 Melee 60 Lair, Roach Warren, Baneling Nest (All this should happen around 8:00).
(First off the 2 evos were not in the best positions but I think this build is so enegry starved that the queens can not really afford to spread some creep to allow for a good wall-off. Whatever, I'll leave that fact out there but put it aside for now.) If the Zerg was aware that the Terran has not gone for the greedy standard then he should think about changing this part of the build order up! You don't need the upgrades nearly as fast because the Terran will be VERY behind in upgrades. You need the units faster as he will have more units and be more aggressive with each unit he does have.
I suggest a basic switch of the Roach Warren/Baneling Nest and the two Evos. You might only be able to get one then have to wait and get a 2nd, Im not sure, I don't care tbh, its just a basic idea. The goal is to delay upgrades by ~1:30 (which is still going to have your upgrades ahead or equal to the Terran for the 3rd Barrel) but have a few Roaches or Banes (I suggest roaches) to handle the hellion timing. I, personally, would practice having a few Roaches ready for hellions at 8:30 and then a few banes ready at ~9:30. This will very nicely handle alot of things that Terran might throw at you!
Then again, I am not a Zerg (I am a Terran), so I might be either missing an even better reaction or missing the point of not reacting to the difference between the two Terran styles... I think I am correct though in saying that it is Zergs best interest to react to the difference between 3CC/2Eng and 2CC/FastProduction. Since the Terran chooses when to do these as the Factory is finishing, you can fo sure scout his choice if you scout after first hellions.
|
On June 14 2013 07:24 netherh wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2013 05:26 vaderseven wrote: 1. Scout pool first => 2 Bunkers, 2nd CC in main, Tank before Hellions
2. Take Natural then poke with Hellions and maybe Scan => see roach bane => add 2 more bunkers and strong sim city in natural and 3rd and add more tanks
3. Scout for Hive timing while adding more tanks and upgrades and production etc etc => see Hive start => push asap once I have 6 tanks OR see later hive (after you have 170 food) => push once hive starts and maxed
I think the tanks are perhaps an overreaction. Here's SeleCT crushing this build on ladder today (game starts at ~2:37:00): http://www.twitch.tv/selectkr/b/416413978
I agree that SeleCT crushed that zerg but the 2nd attack came nearly a minute and half late. I kind of feel like if it had been on time SeleCT may have still held with those defenses but taken enough damage for the game to go on to an even late game.
|
You should mention that the supplies are keeping the 14 ling alive (I guess..?)
|
There is a lot of off topic discussion imo. This build is meant as a direct counter to macro oriented openings. Specifically CC First and 1 Rax FE/Reaper variations.
To the guy who mentioned Hellion Reactor into Expo, that build is sub optimal and does not get your CC out as ast. It gets crushed by a myriad of Zerg openings. Triple Barrel is not meant to crush Reactor Hellion. If a deent Zerg sees reactor Hellion he'll get a 5:00 Third and proceed to laugh.
This is specifically an early agression opening meant to disrupt and crush macro oriented quick 3OC Terran builds loke the ones you were seeing from Innovation and Flash. How well your aggression plays out depends on both the execution of your opponent and yourself. This build does rely on sub par scouting however. It is my belief that once the Terran scouts your army comp through drops or Hellions, a proper reaction will absolutely crush any push a Zerg can make out of this build. However, most players like myself, low to mid masters and even as high as high masters will not have the mechanics to deal with this. This is what the Triple Barrel is about, giving Zergs a capability for massive aggression that can be viable throughout the whole game. It's very well done but it's pointless to get into theorycrafting about it. Tang already stated that this is not a GSL level build but yes, this build will easily get you into Masters if all you face are Terran Innovation wanna-bes.
|
|
On June 14 2013 10:43 jbuck92 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2013 07:12 TangSC wrote:On June 14 2013 07:09 jbuck92 wrote: How do you recommend dealing with an engineering bay block in your natural when using this build? Good question, it's annoying if you don't get on it right away. If an SCV comes that early, get a second Drone down there asap to prevent him from getting any extra time spent building the Engineering Bay. Also, you can send the expansion-Drone a little early so that if you see an SCV you can build the hatch on 16 instead of 17 just to be safe. But with 2 Drones, even if he starts a structure you shouldn't be delayed more than 15 seconds on the hatchery (and the expansion hatchery timing does not effect your first barrel since all those Zerglings are built from the main larva). I didn't catch the e-bay block in time so he got it probably 90% of the way complete. That really set me back timing wise. I should've delayed my roach push a few minutes, since his e-bay block sets him back economically a bit as well. Instead I still hit at about 10:30 or 11, but with only half the force I could have. Yeah that's why I always send my second Overlord to the expansion still. I usually even position it by the expansion ramp to get advanced notice of any SCVs coming, because you really don't want to let him block you. And I think you're right about delaying your attack; I always make sure I reach 20 Roaches before building Lings/Banelings, so the attack may come later if you're messed with early on but the units are roughly the same.
|
On June 14 2013 11:32 schwza wrote: I'm not good enough to comment on the content of the guide, but everyone should agree that this is a seriously professional guide. I emailed HuskyReplays@gmail.com and asked him to cast one of your games. Thanks Tang! You, sir, are awesome. tyvm!
|
So if you're asking, "Why should I learn the Triple Barrel Bust instead of a more standard style that professionals use?" then the answer is that the Triple Barrel Bust was not made for a professional player to use, it was made for you to use
So true. I've been searching for a good follow up to my sloppy gold league 28 warren pressure and here you just throw out an entire game plan that even I can follow. TangSC, you just made my day!
|
I do not really see the point in non pros doing these kind of builds tbh, as we do not really need a selection of builds for non bo1 tournies and these kind of all ins are boring and not particularly that hard to perform. Not sure what a ladder player gets out of doing this kind of stuff aside from if you have a match up that you currently just can not stand and want it over as fast as possible.
|
On June 15 2013 05:52 Swift118 wrote: (...) if you have a match up that you currently just can not stand and want it over as fast as possible.
This. Totally. Oh and they finally thought about nerfing a mineral dump unit that deals 30 damage in a spash that can be healed. Or a unit that even trades effectively when microed perfectly against (mine).
The first barrel is kinda nice and hardcounters all early allins from T. The second is rather difficult as it hits when the terran doule or triple drops you anyway. But against a turtle terren the second one is good if you move the roaches in first.
|
amazing guide! Thanks tang.
One thing I'm concerned about is your lack of anti-air in the late game why not get a spire and a few corruptors as you're massing ultra and lings?
You can A-move the corruptors along with your ultrabanes and if things don't go well, make broodlords.
|
United States352 Posts
On June 15 2013 02:44 HanSomPa wrote: There is a lot of off topic discussion imo. This build is meant as a direct counter to macro oriented openings. Specifically CC First and 1 Rax FE/Reaper variations.
To the guy who mentioned Hellion Reactor into Expo, that build is sub optimal and does not get your CC out as ast. It gets crushed by a myriad of Zerg openings. Triple Barrel is not meant to crush Reactor Hellion. If a deent Zerg sees reactor Hellion he'll get a 5:00 Third and proceed to laugh.
This is specifically an early agression opening meant to disrupt and crush macro oriented quick 3OC Terran builds loke the ones you were seeing from Innovation and Flash. How well your aggression plays out depends on both the execution of your opponent and yourself. This build does rely on sub par scouting however. It is my belief that once the Terran scouts your army comp through drops or Hellions, a proper reaction will absolutely crush any push a Zerg can make out of this build. However, most players like myself, low to mid masters and even as high as high masters will not have the mechanics to deal with this. This is what the Triple Barrel is about, giving Zergs a capability for massive aggression that can be viable throughout the whole game. It's very well done but it's pointless to get into theorycrafting about it. Tang already stated that this is not a GSL level build but yes, this build will easily get you into Masters if all you face are Terran Innovation wanna-bes.
There is more to the game than just economy, so while it may be sub optimal in that regard it is very optimal in others. I said as much in my earlier post, I find its worth the couple of svcs. My TVZ is above 80% against high diamond low masters zergs, many took fast thirds, but if you do MVPs timing attack they dont get the chance to really use it anyways. Reactor hellion expand is a nice middle of the road build, it gives you a lot of options. Its easy to defend zerg all ins, you have the option of a really strong midgame, and you can still choose to move into a third orbital, its hardly suicide and the units you have are so efficient that you can afford to be less than optimal somewhere else.
|
On June 15 2013 07:42 neoghaleon55 wrote: One thing I'm concerned about is your lack of anti-air in the late game why not get a spire and a few corruptors as you're massing ultra and lings?
You can A-move the corruptors along with your ultrabanes and if things don't go well, make broodlords. You definitely can mix in a Spire while hive is building, and squeeze out some Corruptors or Mutalisks. Doesn't hurt to get the Spire even right after the 2nd bust and start air upgrades/Mutalisk midgame. Lots of options.
|
There is more to the game than just economy, so while it may be sub optimal in that regard it is very optimal in others. I said as much in my earlier post, I find its worth the couple of svcs. My TVZ is above 80% against high diamond low masters zergs, many took fast thirds, but if you do MVPs timing attack they dont get the chance to really use it anyways. Reactor hellion expand is a nice middle of the road build, it gives you a lot of options. Its easy to defend zerg all ins, you have the option of a really strong midgame, and you can still choose to move into a third orbital, its hardly suicide and the units you have are so efficient that you can afford to be less than optimal somewhere else.
Same thing as the pool first. It may not be optimal in all cases, but it does have lot of advantages to it. Like you i have 70%+ winrate in ZvT in mid masters and early pool has given me prety easy win against top NA gm because he went for bunker rush.
I have only played reactor hellion 3 times and i won each one of them with pool first and i think they even each other prety nicely.
|
|
United States352 Posts
Hes probably talking to me, I brought up reactor hellion, been using that lately and I prefer it since Im safer early and I can make up ground with the quick hellbats I get. You can also hit a strong timing at 11 like MVP did vs stephano. Middle of the road build, suits my strengths better.
|
As a terran/random player this looks quite difficult to defend. nice guide, well written
|
On June 15 2013 07:54 rikter wrote:
There is more to the game than just economy, so while it may be sub optimal in that regard it is very optimal in others. I said as much in my earlier post, I find its worth the couple of svcs. My TVZ is above 80% against high diamond low masters zergs, many took fast thirds, but if you do MVPs timing attack they dont get the chance to really use it anyways. Reactor hellion expand is a nice middle of the road build, it gives you a lot of options. Its easy to defend zerg all ins, you have the option of a really strong midgame, and you can still choose to move into a third orbital, its hardly suicide and the units you have are so efficient that you can afford to be less than optimal somewhere else.
We are not talking about that. Hellion reactor is not used on pro level specifically because you cannot deny quick 3 bases from Zerg. The Queen patch is a very big deal. Just because you face baddie zergs on ladder won't mean it'll keep happening. You are arguing that Hellion Reactor is viable, which it is not anymore. The only way it'll punish someone is incredibly bad play and bad reactions from the Zerg.
First drone scout, he will see your gas whether you like it or not. He will scout your reactor Hellion either with a ling poke or an oy sacc. Once he sees reactor hellion he will simply get 6 Queens 3 Hatches. You won't be able to deny it a tall with hellions. There is zero chance of that happening. Furthermore, his creep will still be out of control. The way it currently works on pro level is that Terrans allow that creep to spread until roughly 10 minutes. With Hellion Reactor you get your CC around 21 supply. It lands in your nat around 32 supply. I know this because I play Terran and I used Reactor Hellion into strong 2 base timings before and after the Queen patch in WoL.
Here is the proper zerg reaction. 6 Queen 3 Hatch, drone like mad.Sacc an ovy, ling poke around 6:30-8:30 to scout production or unit comp. Make a perfect counter to your army and blow it up when you push. Proceed to get 5 bases or allin for a kill. This is why Reactor Hellion isn't done anymore. You can read all about it in the Terran Help me Thread for WoL and HotS. Stephano is horrible so far in HotS and you should be watching GSL zergs winning and losing games to really improve your TvZ. Korean Terrans aren't boring macro monsters. There are a variety of allins done besides 11/11 in CodeA and Code S.
@vaderseven I wasn't referring to you but I saw a couple of peope dismissing this build a bit and bringing up drops. Which is not what this build is about. Drop will get completely shut down before 14:00 because of the number of units you have. Not to mention the static defense you should be getting along the game anyway.
In fact, I think you bring a very good point about Select and Flash/Innovation. That is the difference between 3CC Macro vs 2CC Production CC opening. 2 Base play means you should play super turtle. Protect your drones, make sveral more rounds of troops and completely crush the Terran army. Because the terran delayed his 3rd CC he needs to preserve his troops or do extreme damage to come out even, otherwise he wont't be able to set up his third base. With 3cc Duble Bay you atleast have an obscene economy to try to come back. With delayed CC there is no coming back if your initial pressure accomplishes nothing.
|
Thanks for the awesome guide!
|
This is a great guide and build, i just have one question, can i start with your other early roach ling pressure build and transition into the 2nd barrel and so on?
|
Hi Tang,
First I want to say thank you for this great guide. I've been struggling a lot in ZvT lately that whenever I get Terran on ladder, I just want to quit. But with this build, the game has become fun again.
Secondly, I've been using this build all of yesterday and my feedbacks are
1. First Barrel seems weakest to Hellbat drop openers with CC in their main. The lings are rendered useless. What is your response if your 14 lings run over to see 2 hellbats and 2 hellions up the ramp?
2. Second bust is awesome, this can transition to soulkey-esque all-ins if you've done enough damage.
3. Third bust, I don't like at all. Right after the second bust, the Terran is almost always behind. They will try to get back in the game by dropping EVERYWHERE. I really don't like the idea of defending a million drops while letting Terrans get another CC up. Masters level and above can do it, but I'm only diamond league.
Yesterday, one random 2 medivac with 2 hellbats and 8 marines wrecked my main's mineral's line. I couldn't get back in time no matter how many speedlings I had.
Solution: Mutalisk transition after 2nd bust You should have enough gas for at least 15 mutalisks when the bust is over.
-Since the Terran is still recoiling from the damage done, they will have little to defend muta-harassment. -The mutalisk will impede and discourage all drop plays while you take a 4th, get hive and whatever late game units you want.
This seems like a better play than just hitting the ultra timing at 18 minutes.
I want to hear your thoughts on the matter
|
Decent guide as always tang! I tried it a couple times but decided the whole build wasn't for me so I've just stolen your opener and the 1st barrel which I find I'm having a better time with then going hatch 1st, from the 1st barrel I can pretty much see what he is doing then play reactionary from there
|
Yeah one of the best things about first barrel is that you can so easely know what the opponent is doing most of the time. This is so great in ladder against not the best opponents and feel likes it removes some of the randomness.
|
On June 16 2013 02:58 Flash3894 wrote: This is a great guide and build, i just have one question, can i start with your other early roach ling pressure build and transition into the 2nd barrel and so on? Absolutely, in fact you can do any aggressive opening then transition to the second barrel.
|
On June 16 2013 04:47 neoghaleon55 wrote:
1. First Barrel seems weakest to Hellbat drop openers with CC in their main. The lings are rendered useless. What is your response if your 14 lings run over to see 2 hellbats and 2 hellions up the ramp?
Yesterday, one random 2 medivac with 2 hellbats and 8 marines wrecked my main's mineral's line. I couldn't get back in time no matter how many speedlings I had.
Solution: Mutalisk transition after 2nd bust You should have enough gas for at least 15 mutalisks when the bust is over.
-Since the Terran is still recoiling from the damage done, they will have little to defend muta-harassment. -The mutalisk will impede and discourage all drop plays while you take a 4th, get hive and whatever late game units you want.
This seems like a better play than just hitting the ultra timing at 18 minutes.
I want to hear your thoughts on the matter If your first 14 lings arrive and you scout that he's going Hellbats, or for whatever reason suspect a Hellbat drop, it would be reasonable to add a Spore/Spine to each mineral line (think Soulkey's placement in GSL finals). In general though, those drops should come around the time your Roaches are building anyway, so if your reaction time is good (pull Drones) and your 3Queens focus the medivacs, you can minimize damage.
I think a Mutalisk transition is highly viable (after the second bust), just drop a spire while you Drone your third and aim for that same 66+ worker economy before switching into Ling/Bling/Muta production.
|
Tang seriously this is brilliant. I am having so much trouble right now zvt. I know a few people who have switched races and they say its less effort and more effective. They could be super biased but the only style i have been playing is Blade's guide. And it is solid. There is nothing wrong with it whatsoever. The problem for me is dealing with drops and engaging armies. I make drones for however long i can get away with and when they make their push i either just die or struggle to survive. And trying to kill and army that can position themselves is way harder than if you bring the fight to them.
Plus having more than one style is something i really need right now. Cheers and thanks for all your work.
|
I really like the ideas around this build.
Is there a reason for getting 1/1 earlier then lair? I.e. why you don't use say an optimised timing for the Barrel 2 push?
On 4 gas, e.g.: First 100g to Lair, 2xEvo, RW, Next 50g to Bane Nest Next 250g to +1/+1, Next 250g and @ 100% Lair: Roach Speed/Bane Speed
Of course these could be delayed if there is a need to spend gas on roaches/banes earlier.
Seems that the critical path for Barrel 2 is Lair into both speeds (80s + 110s = 190s). Followed by +1/+1 at 160s
|
On June 17 2013 20:08 Crugio wrote: I really like the ideas around this build.
Is there a reason for getting 1/1 earlier then lair? I.e. why you don't use say an optimised timing for the Barrel 2 push?
On 4 gas, e.g.: First 100g to Lair, 2xEvo, RW, Next 50g to Bane Nest Next 250g to +1/+1, Next 250g and @ 100% Lair: Roach Speed/Bane Speed
Of course these could be delayed if there is a need to spend gas on roaches/banes earlier.
Seems that the critical path for Barrel 2 is Lair into both speeds (80s + 110s = 190s). Followed by +1/+1 at 160s
That's true, except that it takes 35 seconds to build the Evo chambers (195 seconds to finish upgrades from scratch). You could build the 2 Evo Chambers, then start the Lair with the first 100gas. I'd have to test it but I think that is a little bit more optimized. A sequence like...
2xEvo Lair +1/+1 RW/Bane Nest
|
If you have 3 gases maining and you start lair and make 2 evos at same time you will have 250 gas when evos are ready. if you start 4th gas right timing you will have 250 gas when lair is ready as well after makeing baneling nest.
|
It really bothers me how the people on TL will just accept a well-written guide, regardless of the content, and praise TangSC like everyone does.
Me? I can read the title of a guide's name and know who wrote it. I honestly think this guy wakes up in the morning and says "What all-in can I theorycraft with my race, and how can I justify not calling it an all-in, rather an 'attack' or 'aggression'?" Its the same. Every time with the exception of the Stephano-style macro guide, which was actually really good.
Interesting to note how this guide is very similar to other "aggression" guides written by Tang. The guide that has all the screenshots on Metropolis... I will look for the OP... its basically heavy, all-in "agression" followed by making zero units for several minutes in the effort to making a "maxed out zergling baneling ultralisk army with good upgrades by 14 minutes". Like I don't understand how these guides keep cropping up. Like, I mean, good on you for 'contributing' to the community, though I don't wanna get too praise-filled because I know that you make money off of the community. I guess this just shows an interesting difference. The people that are creating solid, macro-style content are much more respected and in some cases receiving a higher kickback financially.
But why does this bother me? Because this kind of play isn't fun to play against. If I play safely, I hold the roach/baneling all-in, which is what this is. This isn't the solid 3base roach speedbane aggression that the top zerg players are using ZvT. This is a 2base roach/speedbane all-in that transitions into making a billion drones, 2 hatcheries, and no units, and PRAYING that the Terran doesn't build a seige tank, and PRAYING that if the Terran repels the attack, he doesn't counter with a strong biomine army with 1-3 tanks mixed in. ( I am a mid-masters random player that doesn't use gimmicky all-ins; perhaps this can give you some perspective as to why kind of play is almost offensive to me )
|
On June 17 2013 16:02 phrenzy wrote: Tang seriously this is brilliant. I am having so much trouble right now zvt. I know a few people who have switched races and they say its less effort and more effective. They could be super biased but the only style i have been playing is Blade's guide. And it is solid. There is nothing wrong with it whatsoever. The problem for me is dealing with drops and engaging armies. I make drones for however long i can get away with and when they make their push i either just die or struggle to survive. And trying to kill and army that can position themselves is way harder than if you bring the fight to them.
Plus having more than one style is something i really need right now. Cheers and thanks for all your work.
This is exactly the kind of player you cater to Tang. 'I've been losing ZvT with macro play at the level I play at ladder, (whatever that ladder is) so now I will start using your all-ins and hopefully beat players that are better than I am!
Like, I guess you're making people happy. It's kind of like the MaximusBlack effect. He makes his followers, who are cult-like in their devotion, happy. Good for him I guess. Even though all he is doing is to help foster the growth of the angry, raging, 4gate scum that pollute this mostly spectacular community.
User was temp banned for this post.
|
On June 18 2013 23:10 GleaM wrote: It really bothers me how the people on TL will just accept a well-written guide, regardless of the content, and praise TangSC like everyone does.
Me? I can read the title of a guide's name and know who wrote it. I honestly think this guy wakes up in the morning and says "What all-in can I theorycraft with my race, and how can I justify not calling it an all-in, rather an 'attack' or 'aggression'?" Its the same. Every time with the exception of the Stephano-style macro guide, which was actually really good.
Interesting to note how this guide is very similar to other "aggression" guides written by Tang. The guide that has all the screenshots on Metropolis... I will look for the OP... its basically heavy, all-in "agression" followed by making zero units for several minutes in the effort to making a "maxed out zergling baneling ultralisk army with good upgrades by 14 minutes". Like I don't understand how these guides keep cropping up. Like, I mean, good on you for 'contributing' to the community, though I don't wanna get too praise-filled because I know that you make money off of the community. I guess this just shows an interesting difference. The people that are creating solid, macro-style content are much more respected and in some cases receiving a higher kickback financially.
But why does this bother me? Because this kind of play isn't fun to play against. If I play safely, I hold the roach/baneling all-in, which is what this is. This isn't the solid 3base roach speedbane aggression that the top zerg players are using ZvT. This is a 2base roach/speedbane all-in that transitions into making a billion drones, 2 hatcheries, and no units, and PRAYING that the Terran doesn't build a seige tank, and PRAYING that if the Terran repels the attack, he doesn't counter with a strong biomine army with 1-3 tanks mixed in. ( I am a mid-masters random player that doesn't use gimmicky all-ins; perhaps this can give you some perspective as to why kind of play is almost offensive to me ) GleaM if you want to make honest criticism of certain aspects of this style (like that the Roach/Bane timing is on a 2-base economy instead of 3), then that's fine. In fact, I'd welcome it because such a discussion would be focused and constructive. Even if you wanted to condemn the content of the guide, or personally insult me, I'd tolerate it with an open mind and look for ways to learn from what you've said. But your last two posts are so filled with you-know-what that you seem to be overlooking the chance to use your knowledge to contribute in any meaningful or helpful way. You even insulted someone who read and enjoyed the guide, and for me that's just so low and unforgivable.
You think that I just wake up in the morning and say "What all-in can I theorycraft with my race, and how can I justify not calling it an all-in"; and you're goddamn right I do. I love studying aggressive strategies, I love all-ins, and I love blurring the lines between the two. That is how I have learned and played Starcraft II since the first day I bought it, because for me it has been the most fun and effective, and if you think that's wrong, well, tell that to the big grin on my face. Or tell it to GSL Zerg pros like Shine, who almost exclusively uses aggressive early timings and well-planned transitions. Or Soulkey, who used 2Base Roach/Bane all-ins to beat Innovation in the GSL finals - the most competitive SC2 tournament in the world.
Starcraft II strategy is not so black and white as you say, and your personal opinion on how the game should be played is based on your own flawed mindset that all-ins = evil; and this is a way of thinking that needs to change.
|
Of course it's gonna be a TangSC build :D Sounds neat man.
|
On June 18 2013 23:10 GleaM wrote: But why does this bother me? Because this kind of play isn't fun to play against. If I play safely, I hold the roach/baneling all-in, which is what this is. This isn't the solid 3base roach speedbane aggression that the top zerg players are using ZvT. This is a 2base roach/speedbane all-in that transitions into making a billion drones, 2 hatcheries, and no units, and PRAYING that the Terran doesn't build a seige tank, and PRAYING that if the Terran repels the attack, he doesn't counter with a strong biomine army with 1-3 tanks mixed in. ( I am a mid-masters random player that doesn't use gimmicky all-ins; perhaps this can give you some perspective as to why kind of play is almost offensive to me )
Damn people like you bother me in ladder, because its not fun to play against. If i all in i will kill you, but if i play safe macro style im behind. Its so offensive to me you try the get advantage by doing something i dont do.
|
spotting a 15 pool opening is a sure sign imo
|
On June 18 2013 23:10 GleaM wrote:But why does this bother me? Because this kind of play isn't fun to play against
I've quoted the only relevant point in your post, but unfortunately this is a strategy thread instead of an opinion one so it shouldn't really be here. It took a while for you to get to the meat through all that text so I'll keep it concise: If you are expecting a response other than deal with it I think your in for disapointment.
|
On June 19 2013 00:46 SpeCtor wrote: spotting a 15 pool opening is a sure sign imo
Of what? You can play so many ways from that if you just expand your knowledge.
|
On June 19 2013 00:46 SpeCtor wrote: spotting a 15 pool opening is a sure sign imo I don't think so. I use to use a 4 queen opening off a 15/15/17 pool/hatch/gas. But something happened and that build started to fall behind. I will for sure try this one out though Tang, hopefully it does good work for me
|
On June 19 2013 00:46 SpeCtor wrote: spotting a 15 pool opening is a sure sign imo I agree, spotting a 15pool with a gas is a sure sign of early aggression. I don't think it's easy for Terran to respond in a way that puts you much behind though, even knowing it's coming.
|
Im a diamond terran and I dont understand how the first barrell will stop my cc frst if I immedately build a bunker on the low ground. The best the zerg can hope for is to delay my mining until my helions pops and at that point I feel like Id already be ahead. Anyone care to shed some light? I never go reaper, aways cc first, sometimes even on the low ground depening on the map.
|
On June 19 2013 01:03 stratmatt wrote: Im a diamond terran and I dont understand how the first barrell will stop my cc frst if I immedately build a bunker on the low ground. The best the zerg can hope for is to delay my mining until my helions pops and at that point I feel like Id already be ahead. Anyone care to shed some light? I never go reaper, aways cc first, sometimes even on the low ground depening on the map. Or even better, wall your natural by 5'50 and you're now impervious to Speedling pressure.
|
On June 19 2013 01:15 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2013 01:03 stratmatt wrote: Im a diamond terran and I dont understand how the first barrell will stop my cc frst if I immedately build a bunker on the low ground. The best the zerg can hope for is to delay my mining until my helions pops and at that point I feel like Id already be ahead. Anyone care to shed some light? I never go reaper, aways cc first, sometimes even on the low ground depening on the map. Or even better, wall your natural by 5'50 and you're now impervious to Speedling pressure. Yeah this works especially well on maps like Neo Planet LE.
|
On June 19 2013 01:03 stratmatt wrote: Im a diamond terran and I dont understand how the first barrell will stop my cc frst if I immedately build a bunker on the low ground. The best the zerg can hope for is to delay my mining until my helions pops and at that point I feel like Id already be ahead. The initial 14 Lings is usually enough to kill the bunker/marines, but it's a bit of a waste to trade that way. It's better to run-by any bunkers and start hitting the top of the ramp and/or the expansion. You'd be surprised how many times the door is open, or the factory/barracks is swapping, or the Lings break the reactor.
Worst case scenario, Terran is completely walled and pulls 6~ workers off the main mineral line to repair, and you kill 1-3 expansion SCVs while you pull out, then you still have some Speedlings alive for defence/map control. The 14 Speedlings are a surprisingly small investment, even when compared with a greedier hatch-first opening. The real meat of the build is the second bust; the first is meant more to throw Terran off their refined build/plan.
|
On June 19 2013 01:03 stratmatt wrote: Im a diamond terran and I dont understand how the first barrell will stop my cc frst if I immedately build a bunker on the low ground. The best the zerg can hope for is to delay my mining until my helions pops and at that point I feel like Id already be ahead. Anyone care to shed some light? I never go reaper, aways cc first, sometimes even on the low ground depening on the map.
welcome to catz build, proxy hatch absolutely destroys CC high ground and is still contentious when built on the low ground. I'm diamond zerg.
By the way, Tang, do you ever drone scout? I feel like the 3 barrel bust open is only good against gas first Terrans, a reaper sure sign. Not that it can't work against CC first or gasless rax first, just that there are better builds out there against those opens.
|
On June 19 2013 01:55 neoghaleon55 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2013 01:03 stratmatt wrote: Im a diamond terran and I dont understand how the first barrell will stop my cc frst if I immedately build a bunker on the low ground. The best the zerg can hope for is to delay my mining until my helions pops and at that point I feel like Id already be ahead. Anyone care to shed some light? I never go reaper, aways cc first, sometimes even on the low ground depening on the map. By the way, Tang, do you ever drone scout? I feel like the 3 barrel bust open is only good against gas first Terrans, a reaper sure sign. Not that it can't work against CC first or gasless rax first, just that there are better builds out there against those opens. I'm so attached to the Speedling opening that I do it regardless of my opponents' builds. I'm confident with it against gas-first, CC-first, 1-Rax FE, etc. I do think that you could Drone-scout and have a different first bust for each Terran opening (14 Speedlings for Reapers, Shine's 12 Roach against CC-first, etc.) but I don't Drone-scout myself, I want them minerals.
|
On June 19 2013 01:55 neoghaleon55 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2013 01:03 stratmatt wrote: Im a diamond terran and I dont understand how the first barrell will stop my cc frst if I immedately build a bunker on the low ground. The best the zerg can hope for is to delay my mining until my helions pops and at that point I feel like Id already be ahead. Anyone care to shed some light? I never go reaper, aways cc first, sometimes even on the low ground depening on the map. welcome to catz build, proxy hatch absolutely destroys CC high ground and is still contentious when built on the low ground. I'm diamond zerg. ? No. And his post had nothing to do with proxy hatch anyway.
|
On June 19 2013 02:02 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2013 01:55 neoghaleon55 wrote:On June 19 2013 01:03 stratmatt wrote: Im a diamond terran and I dont understand how the first barrell will stop my cc frst if I immedately build a bunker on the low ground. The best the zerg can hope for is to delay my mining until my helions pops and at that point I feel like Id already be ahead. Anyone care to shed some light? I never go reaper, aways cc first, sometimes even on the low ground depening on the map. welcome to catz build, proxy hatch absolutely destroys CC high ground and is still contentious when built on the low ground. I'm diamond zerg. ? No. And his post had nothing to do with proxy hatch anyway.
sorry for tangential argument. I agree with this post, 14 lings don't do well against CC first, but catz build does. Which is why I'm advocating drone scouting...something that tang admits he doesn't do often.
|
On June 19 2013 02:06 neoghaleon55 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2013 02:02 TheDwf wrote:On June 19 2013 01:55 neoghaleon55 wrote:On June 19 2013 01:03 stratmatt wrote: Im a diamond terran and I dont understand how the first barrell will stop my cc frst if I immedately build a bunker on the low ground. The best the zerg can hope for is to delay my mining until my helions pops and at that point I feel like Id already be ahead. Anyone care to shed some light? I never go reaper, aways cc first, sometimes even on the low ground depening on the map. welcome to catz build, proxy hatch absolutely destroys CC high ground and is still contentious when built on the low ground. I'm diamond zerg. ? No. And his post had nothing to do with proxy hatch anyway. Which is why I'm advocating drone scouting...something that tang admits he doesn't do often. ...doesn't do ever* lol
|
On June 19 2013 02:12 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2013 02:06 neoghaleon55 wrote:On June 19 2013 02:02 TheDwf wrote:On June 19 2013 01:55 neoghaleon55 wrote:On June 19 2013 01:03 stratmatt wrote: Im a diamond terran and I dont understand how the first barrell will stop my cc frst if I immedately build a bunker on the low ground. The best the zerg can hope for is to delay my mining until my helions pops and at that point I feel like Id already be ahead. Anyone care to shed some light? I never go reaper, aways cc first, sometimes even on the low ground depening on the map. welcome to catz build, proxy hatch absolutely destroys CC high ground and is still contentious when built on the low ground. I'm diamond zerg. ? No. And his post had nothing to do with proxy hatch anyway. Which is why I'm advocating drone scouting...something that tang admits he doesn't do often. ...doesn't do ever* lol
soooooo bad!!
|
Hi Tang, great guide, just a quick question for you from a Terran player. There's been some talk in this thread about the differences between a Fact/3Rax/Port build off 2 base and the quick 3 CC builds for Terran following a CC first, 1rax FE or Reaper Expand. If the Zerg is going for some sort of 2 base pressure similar to your guide here, what do you think is the better response?
Thank you for this very well written and organized guide.
|
Lot of you should read all the earlier posts. It has alredy been stated at least twice i think that the pool first is OPTIONAL. Tang and i have both played with pool first in master lot games and have found that we like it better than hatch first in this meta. If you think its not, don't use it.
Most of you in my eyes havent even used or played against it that much, but if you think its not good thats your opinion. We have found it works good in masters. Ofc there is posibility that you just drone scout and decide with that what you do. I think yugioh does this if he sees posibility for reapers with drone scout he goes 15 pool 15 gas.
Cant we alredy get over that point?
|
On June 19 2013 02:22 geoIOPS wrote: just a quick question for you from a Terran player. There's been some talk in this thread about the differences between a Fact/3Rax/Port build off 2 base and the quick 3 CC builds for Terran following a CC first, 1rax FE or Reaper Expand. If the Zerg is going for some sort of 2 base pressure similar to your guide here, what do you think is the better response?
I think thedwf can probably answer from the Terran perspective better than I can, but I'd advise a 1Rax FE --> 3CC w/ Tanks, or an early Hellbat drop into mech.
|
Yo Tang, I've previously discounted some of the stuff you've made because it is all-in and I don't particularly think that an all in should ever work if one's opponent is good at scouting and using the information and reacting. That being said, I think it's important to know all-ins and to practice them because they can allow enough damage to be done to move to a later point in the game with an advantage that is sometimes necessary and sometimes just nice to have.
Not being a fan of speedling aggression, I would be interested if you would either point me in the direction of or you yourself write just a simple guide to a roach bane allin because every time I try its too late, I have too many drones, not enough units, it just isn't powerful, and I fall behind. Or if there are any modifications to the build that you suggest in this guide that would cut the first "barrel" (A metaphor that I would also appreciate being explained because I feel particularly thick not understanding it.).
|
A Triple Barrel Shotgun.
I believe that is the reference.
|
On June 19 2013 00:27 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2013 23:10 GleaM wrote: It really bothers me how the people on TL will just accept a well-written guide, regardless of the content, and praise TangSC like everyone does.
Me? I can read the title of a guide's name and know who wrote it. I honestly think this guy wakes up in the morning and says "What all-in can I theorycraft with my race, and how can I justify not calling it an all-in, rather an 'attack' or 'aggression'?" Its the same. Every time with the exception of the Stephano-style macro guide, which was actually really good.
Interesting to note how this guide is very similar to other "aggression" guides written by Tang. The guide that has all the screenshots on Metropolis... I will look for the OP... its basically heavy, all-in "agression" followed by making zero units for several minutes in the effort to making a "maxed out zergling baneling ultralisk army with good upgrades by 14 minutes". Like I don't understand how these guides keep cropping up. Like, I mean, good on you for 'contributing' to the community, though I don't wanna get too praise-filled because I know that you make money off of the community. I guess this just shows an interesting difference. The people that are creating solid, macro-style content are much more respected and in some cases receiving a higher kickback financially.
But why does this bother me? Because this kind of play isn't fun to play against. If I play safely, I hold the roach/baneling all-in, which is what this is. This isn't the solid 3base roach speedbane aggression that the top zerg players are using ZvT. This is a 2base roach/speedbane all-in that transitions into making a billion drones, 2 hatcheries, and no units, and PRAYING that the Terran doesn't build a seige tank, and PRAYING that if the Terran repels the attack, he doesn't counter with a strong biomine army with 1-3 tanks mixed in. ( I am a mid-masters random player that doesn't use gimmicky all-ins; perhaps this can give you some perspective as to why kind of play is almost offensive to me ) GleaM if you want to make honest criticism of certain aspects of this style (like that the Roach/Bane timing is on a 2-base economy instead of 3), then that's fine. In fact, I'd welcome it because such a discussion would be focused and constructive. Even if you wanted to condemn the content of the guide, or personally insult me, I'd tolerate it with an open mind and look for ways to learn from what you've said. But your last two posts are so filled with you-know-what that you seem to be overlooking the chance to use your knowledge to contribute in any meaningful or helpful way. You even insulted someone who read and enjoyed the guide, and for me that's just so low and unforgivable. You think that I just wake up in the morning and say "What all-in can I theorycraft with my race, and how can I justify not calling it an all-in"; and you're goddamn right I do. I love studying aggressive strategies, I love all-ins, and I love blurring the lines between the two. That is how I have learned and played Starcraft II since the first day I bought it, because for me it has been the most fun and effective, and if you think that's wrong, well, tell that to the big grin on my face. Or tell it to GSL Zerg pros like Shine, who almost exclusively uses aggressive early timings and well-planned transitions. Or Soulkey, who used 2Base Roach/Bane all-ins to beat Innovation in the GSL finals - the most competitive SC2 tournament in the world. Starcraft II strategy is not so black and white as you say, and your personal opinion on how the game should be played is based on your own flawed mindset that all-ins = evil; and this is a way of thinking that needs to change.
I don't think all-ins are "evil" but I do think that the way that you take advantage of low-level players by making them think that they are better than they are to gain a following and/or revenue is pretty shitty. That's pretty black and white.
Insulting someone that enjoyed your guide? I'm pretty sure I just described many of your followers in some detail. I would say the majority. If people wanna be insulted by honesty, that's fine. I'm 6'1" 245 lbs. I'm a big guy. Go to college. Have a bit of a beer belly. I'd love to shed maybe 20 lbs so I can go for 2 hours instead of 1.5 in pickup basketball. Yeah, I'm a bit fatter than I'd like to be. That's honesty. If you wanna get upset by it, that's fine. It's pretty black and white.
And to your 3rd, completely ridiculous point: Shine is the laughing stock of the pro scene, just as players like SuHoShin were when the game was a little less competitive. People with no skill that win because they ONLY know how to all-in, such as bit-by-bit.PRIME, are the butt of jokes in this, the great SC2 community. That's pretty black and white.
Soulkey, one of the greatest MACRO players that SC2 has ever seen, used these tools in the GSL FINALS, where tens of thousands of dollars, and his livelihood, were on the line. And he used them as PART of his tool-kit to take down Innovation (did you watch game 7?) That's pretty... you get the idea.
The line between all-in and macro play is not black and white. There's a fuzzy area. I would call builds like the 3base roach/baneling attack a build that falls in that fuzzy line. "an eco-bust". Your builds are "bust into greedy eco to catch up if it didn't work"
And that, chief, is pretty black and white.
|
On June 19 2013 00:42 SacredCoconut wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2013 23:10 GleaM wrote: But why does this bother me? Because this kind of play isn't fun to play against. If I play safely, I hold the roach/baneling all-in, which is what this is. This isn't the solid 3base roach speedbane aggression that the top zerg players are using ZvT. This is a 2base roach/speedbane all-in that transitions into making a billion drones, 2 hatcheries, and no units, and PRAYING that the Terran doesn't build a seige tank, and PRAYING that if the Terran repels the attack, he doesn't counter with a strong biomine army with 1-3 tanks mixed in. ( I am a mid-masters random player that doesn't use gimmicky all-ins; perhaps this can give you some perspective as to why kind of play is almost offensive to me ) Damn people like you bother me in ladder, because its not fun to play against. If i all in i will kill you, but if i play safe macro style im behind. Its so offensive to me you try the get advantage by doing something i dont do.
Err, if we both play solid macro play, how do I "get the advantage" if you don't all-in? And how "will you kill me" if you all-in? If you're inferring that you are a mindless all-in player that is higher than his skill level on ladder by doing all-ins, then yes, I will prolly beat you if you try to macro. Wondering what kind of player I am talking about? Here ya go, have fun with this:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=417686
Shoutout to the hand-of-god from our sunnyside up friend.
|
On June 19 2013 07:36 GleaM wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2013 00:42 SacredCoconut wrote:On June 18 2013 23:10 GleaM wrote: But why does this bother me? Because this kind of play isn't fun to play against. If I play safely, I hold the roach/baneling all-in, which is what this is. This isn't the solid 3base roach speedbane aggression that the top zerg players are using ZvT. This is a 2base roach/speedbane all-in that transitions into making a billion drones, 2 hatcheries, and no units, and PRAYING that the Terran doesn't build a seige tank, and PRAYING that if the Terran repels the attack, he doesn't counter with a strong biomine army with 1-3 tanks mixed in. ( I am a mid-masters random player that doesn't use gimmicky all-ins; perhaps this can give you some perspective as to why kind of play is almost offensive to me ) Damn people like you bother me in ladder, because its not fun to play against. If i all in i will kill you, but if i play safe macro style im behind. Its so offensive to me you try the get advantage by doing something i dont do. Err, if we both play solid macro play, how do I "get the advantage" if you don't all-in? And how "will you kill me" if you all-in? If you're inferring that you are a mindless all-in player that is higher than his skill level on ladder by doing all-ins, then yes, I will prolly beat you if you try to macro. Wondering what kind of player I am talking about? Here ya go, have fun with this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=417686Shoutout to the hand-of-god from our sunnyside up friend.
I have a background in fighting games and was a high profile player on 8wayrun.com soul calibur player from 2008-2012. People like GleaM are not uncommon even in our community. They're the type who thinks throws are unfair or ringouts are cheap. They have a preconceived notion on how the game should be played and if anyone plays differently, condemns them. Point being, just ignore this 200 post count troll.
|
On June 19 2013 07:36 GleaM wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2013 00:42 SacredCoconut wrote:On June 18 2013 23:10 GleaM wrote: But why does this bother me? Because this kind of play isn't fun to play against. If I play safely, I hold the roach/baneling all-in, which is what this is. This isn't the solid 3base roach speedbane aggression that the top zerg players are using ZvT. This is a 2base roach/speedbane all-in that transitions into making a billion drones, 2 hatcheries, and no units, and PRAYING that the Terran doesn't build a seige tank, and PRAYING that if the Terran repels the attack, he doesn't counter with a strong biomine army with 1-3 tanks mixed in. ( I am a mid-masters random player that doesn't use gimmicky all-ins; perhaps this can give you some perspective as to why kind of play is almost offensive to me ) Damn people like you bother me in ladder, because its not fun to play against. If i all in i will kill you, but if i play safe macro style im behind. Its so offensive to me you try the get advantage by doing something i dont do. Err, if we both play solid macro play, how do I "get the advantage" if you don't all-in? And how "will you kill me" if you all-in? If you're inferring that you are a mindless all-in player that is higher than his skill level on ladder by doing all-ins, then yes, I will prolly beat you if you try to macro. Wondering what kind of player I am talking about? Here ya go, have fun with this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=417686Shoutout to the hand-of-god from our sunnyside up friend.
Your saying that if you play safe solid you will defend it, so if your losing to this that means your playing too greedy or not scouting enough. If your actuly defending them what the problem? There is nothing that says i cant be agressive and try to win before 20 minutes. I my self don't want to alweys play long games and to your information i don't use this build i just have kinda similar build which is litle later with the 3th base saturation.
So people who lose to this are usuly people who don't scout, just blindly follow build order or play too greedy. I think its much more fun to play against people who actuly respond to your actions and dont try to play too greedy. But there is nothing wrong with people that do that. If play someone that just defends until 40+ mark how does that exactly offense me? I may not like playing against that, but that should not offense me.
I think one of the most fun things is when opponents all in me. ZvT best example, because of my opening 11/11 and 8/8/8 are free win. Its great that my choise of playing safe and scouting gives me advatages.
What is that suposed to mean. Meaby in reality his just some macro heavy gm who is actuly trolling everyone with his posts?
|
I have been messing around with rolling/speed roaches, different evo timings........ When I look at my losses using this build it becomes apparent scouting terran gas is so important when doing this build..... Sometimes I'll have hellbats or tanks catch me off guard when I try one of the greedier roach rushes if I'm going for a "heavy first barrel" = P'.
The best part about this build is that current meta has 0 banshees, perfect build. Once blizzard buffs banshees this timing may become weaker - time will tell
|
So funny how most terrans here state that the first barrel will never do any damage...while Taeja was kicked out in the semifinals of Dreamhack by 14 Lings in his base. Looks like DH has chosen the wrong participants...the real pros are "rikter" and Co. They have 4 Hellions out before 6 minutes...impressive...while Taeja has popping up the first two at 6.00.
Seriously guys, this build is rock solid. Can it be stopped? Ofc, like any other build! Will it destroy one if not scouted? Absolutely! Is TangSC using it at high masters with success? Yes he does! Is it fun to play? Yes it is!
|
On June 19 2013 20:05 VanGore78 wrote: So funny how most terrans here state that the first barrel will never do any damage...while Taeja was kicked out in the semifinals of Dreamhack by 14 Lings in his base. Looks like DH has chosen the wrong participants...the real pros are "rikter" and Co. They have 4 Hellions out before 6 minutes...impressive...while Taeja has popping up the first two at 6.00.
Seriously guys, this build is rock solid. Can it be stopped? Ofc, like any other build! Will it destroy one if not scouted? Absolutely! Is TangSC using it at high masters with success? Yes he does! Is it fun to play? Yes it is!
While I don't agree with most people criticizing Tang's build there is a point to be made. With proper scputing nd reactions this build does more damage to the Zerg than the Terran. This will never work consistently on pro-level play. However, even in Masters pople have crap scouting and reactions. Which is why thisbuild should be able to destroy ladder for the most part.
As you saw in the OSL though, even with an incorrect reaction a superior player can still win. I am of course referring to Innovation's game against an aggressive hatchery. Innovation imo, made a very wrong response, but still won in the end.
|
This is a really really interesting strat. Coming from ling/bling/muta since beta wol and beeing ignorant to other zvt strats has been a mistake. I tried this in a few games and it really feels like this is the style that best fits zerg in sc2. I would love to see how terran adapts later on. Should make for an interesting dynamic in the mu.
|
Ok i after trying it out my self i still like the speed bling/roach bust with 3th base saturation after ling presure as you can keep reinforcing it. But i may find some uses for it, probely after roach attack instead of ling attack.
At moment the style is 3 barrel that is "limited" in its uses, but you can take the barrels and transform them to arrows. After you do that and add your own timings to it you can get hawkeye style. You choise right arrow(attack) for right timing and feel like badass when you shoot it and hit the target.
In this case posible arrows could be the 14 speedling, some hatchery roach rush, 2 base roach baneling with lair or no lair, 1/1 speed roach, 3 base 1/1 roach/bling bust, 2/2 roach hydra, 2/2 ling bling muta, 3/3 ultra. Sometimes only 1 arrow may be the best posibility, but sometimes you want to chain them together to get the best outcome. Arrow may not be best analogy, but could not think of another awesome one.
|
On June 20 2013 02:59 SacredCoconut wrote: In this case posible arrows could be the 14 speedling, some hatchery roach rush, 2 base roach baneling with lair or no lair, 1/1 speed roach, 3 base 1/1 roach/bling bust, 2/2 roach hydra, 2/2 ling bling muta, 3/3 ultra. Sometimes only 1 arrow may be the best posibility, but sometimes you want to chain them together to get the best outcome. Arrow may not be best analogy, but could not think of another awesome one.
Spending Gas on the first bust significantly delays your economy and mid-game. Most of the options you describe are border-line allin.
|
On June 20 2013 13:38 HanSomPa wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2013 02:59 SacredCoconut wrote: In this case posible arrows could be the 14 speedling, some hatchery roach rush, 2 base roach baneling with lair or no lair, 1/1 speed roach, 3 base 1/1 roach/bling bust, 2/2 roach hydra, 2/2 ling bling muta, 3/3 ultra. Sometimes only 1 arrow may be the best posibility, but sometimes you want to chain them together to get the best outcome. Arrow may not be best analogy, but could not think of another awesome one.
Spending Gas on the first bust significantly delays your economy and mid-game. Most of the options you describe are border-line allin.
Tangs second barrel is borderline all in as well. Ofc it delays your economy, but at same time it has more power to it. Lot of players have used 10-15 roach rush after expansion and it has worked, and you can transition from it. Not all of the arrows are best with each other you have to find right one for right uses.
Example speedling into hatchery roach rush is just stupid. Hatchery roach rush into 1/1 speed roach smooth transition and sometimes when you can't kill them, but do enough damage you still go 2/2 roach hydra. From these the most common from pros would be straight to 2/2 muta ling bling for long time into 3/3 ultra to end the game. More attacking one for long game could be speedling into 1/1 bane bust into 2/2 muta ling bling into 3/3 ultra.
With this style lot of power comes from knowing what attack is good against what and why it works against it and using right one. Knowing how much damage you have to do with attack is important too. Some of them are not even supposed to have transition to it usualy.
In ladder you may not need to know more than the 3 barrel and 1-2 different to switch after 1st barrel or 2th barrel depending on how the terran plays. In bo3 and up you will need to know more to actualy be good in it. Guide was made for ladder use though so this may be little of topic.
|
On June 20 2013 13:38 HanSomPa wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2013 02:59 SacredCoconut wrote: In this case posible arrows could be the 14 speedling, some hatchery roach rush, 2 base roach baneling with lair or no lair, 1/1 speed roach, 3 base 1/1 roach/bling bust, 2/2 roach hydra, 2/2 ling bling muta, 3/3 ultra. Sometimes only 1 arrow may be the best posibility, but sometimes you want to chain them together to get the best outcome. Arrow may not be best analogy, but could not think of another awesome one.
Spending Gas on the first bust significantly delays your economy and mid-game. Most of the options you describe are border-line allin.
Going pool first also delays your economy and midgame. I mean, if you want to, just look at the opener as a more economic version of a 14/14. You're making an economic tradeoff in order to secure map control, shut down cheese, and inflict possible damage. It's good to throw in once in awhile, and if you know the right cuts to make you can get back on track fairly easily. Especially if the T opened 3CC - then you're safe to take an earlier 3rd and drone to high heaven.
You do not have to do the second bust. By all means delay and get 3 base saturation and then proceed with a massive roach/bane allin while taking a 4th and hive for ultras.
The quick gas is a calculated sacrifice. After you get 88 gas you pull workers out anyhow. The hit hurts in the early game but you're making lings instead of drones so the point is moot.
|
There is a lot of discussion on weather this is all-in, or how it can be stopped if Terran scouts it ect, but one thing I think a lot of people are missing is just its style. It plays as a MUCH more aggressive style bringing the game to the Terran instead of the other way around which is a nice refreshment. I don't know about the other zergs out there but speaking form one that has played excursively Zerg since the beta of WoL I am tired of being forced into the standard zvt game which is
Take a fast 3rd > defend mid game shannagins >survive to hive tech > Max out > Try and crush the terran.... try
It's just a very difference play style that is nice to switch to from time to time. Do I do it EVERYTIME I get a ZvT matchup no, does it have its flaws, yes, but is it nice to play this style after a few LONG drawn out macro ZvT games.... YUP
thanks for the guide again Tang, keep up the good work.
|
Tang, sorry, but I literally can't get the second barrel to work unless the terran is turtling as hell and not dropping.
The second barrel hits exactly at the time he usually drops you with double medivacs, and you can't both have enough stuff at home to defend this AND have enough at the front.
So in conclusion, yes, the second barrel can to a lot of damage if the terran is a bad lazy defensive bastard.
|
i guess telling people to attack an opponents base is what passes for a guide these days
|
Longtime fan of your guides here. Thanks for another legendary guide! You're awesome!
|
On June 21 2013 09:24 Mahtasooma wrote: Tang, sorry, but I literally can't get the second barrel to work unless the terran is turtling as hell and not dropping. Can't say for sure what the problem is, but I would check your 8 minute benchmark and see if you're reaching that. Then make sure your push is arriving no later than 11:00. There's no way Terran can hold the push and double drop you.
|
On June 22 2013 00:00 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2013 09:24 Mahtasooma wrote: Tang, sorry, but I literally can't get the second barrel to work unless the terran is turtling as hell and not dropping. Can't say for sure what the problem is, but I would check your 8 minute benchmark and see if you're reaching that. Then make sure your push is arriving no later than 11:00. There's no way Terran can hold the push and double drop you.
Right. But you dort base trade against terran. He lifts his stuff and you still die.
|
On June 22 2013 00:30 Mahtasooma wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2013 00:00 TangSC wrote:On June 21 2013 09:24 Mahtasooma wrote: Tang, sorry, but I literally can't get the second barrel to work unless the terran is turtling as hell and not dropping. Can't say for sure what the problem is, but I would check your 8 minute benchmark and see if you're reaching that. Then make sure your push is arriving no later than 11:00. There's no way Terran can hold the push and double drop you. Right. But you dort base trade against terran. He lifts historischen stufe and you still die. I've never gotten into a base trade situation with the second bust. You're making Zerglings behind this until you feel safe to Drone your third, so drops really can't kill you if you're attacking at the correct time. You should just play a really safe/aggressive mid-game style. I'd look at the replay, and see if the steps leading up to the bust were timed right. Also see if you continued Zergling production after the bust, you may have switched to Drones too early.
|
On June 20 2013 19:28 Qwyn wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2013 13:38 HanSomPa wrote:On June 20 2013 02:59 SacredCoconut wrote: In this case posible arrows could be the 14 speedling, some hatchery roach rush, 2 base roach baneling with lair or no lair, 1/1 speed roach, 3 base 1/1 roach/bling bust, 2/2 roach hydra, 2/2 ling bling muta, 3/3 ultra. Sometimes only 1 arrow may be the best posibility, but sometimes you want to chain them together to get the best outcome. Arrow may not be best analogy, but could not think of another awesome one.
Spending Gas on the first bust significantly delays your economy and mid-game. Most of the options you describe are border-line allin. You do not have to do the second bust. By all means delay and get 3 base saturation and then proceed with a massive roach/bane allin while taking a 4th and hive for ultras. I've been mixing that that in more and more, just building 10~ Roaches to fake a push/be safe, and droning the third and getting 2/2 earlier.
|
your cheeses are amazing tang, keep it on
|
This build is rather absurd in gold - even works against Zergs assuming they dont have a baneling nest (surprisingly, this is most of the time xD). Most Terrans cant withstand the first wave, the rest fall to the second. The only problem is I cant practice the third barrel since they are all dead by that stage!
Defiantly recommend to any low level players. As tang said its a great build to get better at mechanics.
Murders lowbies/10
EDIT: Ofc if you manage to miss zergs Banelings, just camp your lings outside and try to detonate them. Works most of the time and results in a free win.
|
On June 13 2013 10:33 rikter wrote: to the people saying you cant do anything about barrel one, its easy. 2 marines in a bunker plus your hellions easily hold this with no damage and no wall.
You can undercut barrel two with hellbat drops, which start at 715 or so. A hellbat marauder medi midgame into marine production at the end gives you enough to hold barrel two, even without tanks or mines.
Doesnt seem productive to open pool first to me, especially to power an initial attack that shouldnt do damage. Tang's first barrel comes well before standard hellion timing, unless opponent hasn't started his CC, in which case you don't need to do damage to be even. Just use speedlings to deny hellions ala Life.
|
On June 22 2013 00:31 TangSC wrote:
I've never gotten into a base trade situation with the second bust. You're making Zerglings behind this until you feel safe to Drone your third, so drops really can't kill you if you're attacking at the correct time. You should just play a really safe/aggressive mid-game style. I'd look at the replay, and see if the steps leading up to the bust were timed right. Also see if you continued Zergling production after the bust, you may have switched to Drones too early.
So basically you say you keep producing units while you push out, rallied at home and set to a different control group? Yea, that might work...
|
On June 24 2013 00:16 Mahtasooma wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2013 00:31 TangSC wrote:
I've never gotten into a base trade situation with the second bust. You're making Zerglings behind this until you feel safe to Drone your third, so drops really can't kill you if you're attacking at the correct time. You should just play a really safe/aggressive mid-game style. I'd look at the replay, and see if the steps leading up to the bust were timed right. Also see if you continued Zergling production after the bust, you may have switched to Drones too early. So basically you say you keep producing units while you push out, rallied at home and set to a different control group? Yea, that might work... Always, at least 16 lings. In fact if he dropped anytime before/during the roach/ling/bane timing, I would continue producing lings. The lings clean up his drops, the push does extra damage because he has less units. And you have the option, after defending the drops, of going for another ling/baneling bust.
|
As per usual Tang, the content here is looking pretty solid my good man. I'm really eager to start practicing this build and using it as a means towards being able to play Zerg with a very aggressive style. Shoot, I'm looking to just start playing more Zerg period, let alone with any kind of discernible style. Thanks for all the time and effort
|
After watching homestory finals of snute against taeja in my opinion it may not be bad idea to just make 10 roaches and start 2/2 and spire/pit instead of going barrel 2. This seems easy enough to make as reactionary choice to tanks or later 3th.
In one game i think snute opened in way that he could have done the tangs second barrel, but went for 2/2 instead. There was most likely some metagameing, responding to game state behind this, but i think learning when this is good idea to do may make the style lot more solid.
|
Looks like fun! One question though- I watched your recent game vs. Diord, so maybe you covered this in some other replays- but your army doesn't have any AA. What happens if banshees and ravens show up? Would you throw hydras in the mix since they benefit from your roach Evo upgrades?
|
On June 25 2013 01:58 echodrain wrote: Looks like fun! One question though- I watched your recent game vs. Diord, so maybe you covered this in some other replays- but your army doesn't have any AA. What happens if banshees and ravens show up? Would you throw hydras in the mix since they benefit from your roach Evo upgrades? Lord scout or pray.
If you're higher level you should be able to determine with high certainty whether he will have a serious air commitment with the first attack as you get so much scouting info.
|
On June 25 2013 01:58 echodrain wrote: Looks like fun! One question though- I watched your recent game vs. Diord, so maybe you covered this in some other replays- but your army doesn't have any AA. What happens if banshees and ravens show up? Would you throw hydras in the mix since they benefit from your roach Evo upgrades? Well I usually prefer the Melee/Carapace upgrades because I go Ultralisk/ling/bling, so Hydras wouldn't benefit from the attack upgrade (though you could mix some into the composition). In all honesty, if Terran invests in air before your second barrel, he should die to it.
In the later stages, since you're going infestation pit anyway, I would recommend Infestor/Queen defence against air. Some players also get a Spire with the Infestation pit after the second barrel, and any combination of Mutalisks/Corruptors/Infestors/static defences make it easier to deal with Banshees/Drops/Ravens.
|
I just played a game when terran went mech between the second and third barrels and I wasn't sure what to do. I would have wanted to get roach/hydra/viper, but I didn't have any range upgrades. My actual response of rolling tons of banelings into thors was pretty disastrous. As a related question, do you press on with the 2nd barrel if they have tanks?
|
On June 25 2013 23:11 schwza wrote: I just played a game when terran went mech between the second and third barrels and I wasn't sure what to do. I would have wanted to get roach/hydra/viper, but I didn't have any range upgrades. My actual response of rolling tons of banelings into thors was pretty disastrous. As a related question, do you press on with the 2nd barrel if they have tanks? You can still go Roach/Hydra/Viper even though you got +1 Melee, just get +2 Carapace/+1 Range as your second round of upgrades. You can usually take a 4th and Drone harder (past 70) against Mech as well.
As for whether you should go through with the 2nd barrel against tanks, it's situational but I would say most times yes, because most times you'll still do equalizing damage assuming the attack arrives on time. If you're a bit late and see tanks and you're a bit unsure, you can always pull back and Drone up.
|
this is the slickest guide ever! gonna try it out so hard!
|
On June 23 2013 03:56 bypLy wrote: your cheeses are amazing tang, keep it on what the hell is your definition of cheese? cuz mine sure doesn't include 2-base tier-2 frontal aggression...
|
How do you deal with hatch block and mech play?
On June 27 2013 09:19 DaemonX wrote:what the hell is your definition of cheese? cuz mine sure doesn't include 2-base tier-2 frontal aggression...
probably a build where you have to do a ton of dmg to stay in the game which is what this is
|
What if terran builds a banshee? Press on? He had a banshee and 4-6 hellions outside of my base so he saw everything coming and was able to pick off some units as I walked across the map.
Also, I was looking at one of your old guides on DRG's slow roach / slow bane / speed ling bust here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=344272
Is that still viable?
|
On June 28 2013 05:25 Steel wrote:How do you deal with hatch block and mech play? Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 09:19 DaemonX wrote:On June 23 2013 03:56 bypLy wrote: your cheeses are amazing tang, keep it on what the hell is your definition of cheese? cuz mine sure doesn't include 2-base tier-2 frontal aggression... probably a build where you have to do a ton of dmg to stay in the game which is what this is
Which is essentially every TvZ for Terran. If Terran doesn't do a ton of damage in he form of mid game pressure, any decent Zerg will win the game. Is every Terran build that relies on massive 3CC mid game prssure a cheese then?
|
If a terran hellbat drops and forces 1 spore per base and 6 roaches hees ahead
|
On June 28 2013 08:58 Steel wrote: If a terran hellbat drops and forces 1 spore per base and 6 roaches hees ahead
If a Zerg goes Mutas and forces turrets from Terran then he's ahead.
|
On June 28 2013 10:47 HanSomPa wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2013 08:58 Steel wrote: If a terran hellbat drops and forces 1 spore per base and 6 roaches hees ahead If a Zerg goes Mutas and forces turrets from Terran then he's ahead.
If only that was the case mutalisk harass might actually be a thing in sc2 not just antidrop defense.
|
On June 28 2013 10:49 Iksf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2013 10:47 HanSomPa wrote:On June 28 2013 08:58 Steel wrote: If a terran hellbat drops and forces 1 spore per base and 6 roaches hees ahead If a Zerg goes Mutas and forces turrets from Terran then he's ahead. If only that was the case mutalisk harass might actually be a thing in sc2 not just antidrop defense.
Im sorry but if you think that's mutas primary role in standard fast 3CC vs Fast 3 Hatch muta/ling/bling, then I don't think yu have a very good understanding of the matchup. Game 7 GSL Korea Finals Innovation vs Soulkey. Did Innovation build zero turrets? Of course not. He realizes the harass potential of mutalisks, hence the forced turrets. Mutas don't even clean up drops. They secure map control over Terran. Mutas simply have an added bonus of killing the medivac very fast, they don't actually do the killing of the dropped units.
|
On June 27 2013 09:19 DaemonX wrote:what the hell is your definition of cheese? cuz mine sure doesn't include 2-base tier-2 frontal aggression...
Er from a zerg that is the definition of an all in/cheese. If your tier 2 frontal aggression doesn't do enough damage (this has to do a TON of damage for it to be worth it) you lose the game unless the terran is bad.
On June 28 2013 07:58 HanSomPa wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2013 05:25 Steel wrote:How do you deal with hatch block and mech play? On June 27 2013 09:19 DaemonX wrote:On June 23 2013 03:56 bypLy wrote: your cheeses are amazing tang, keep it on what the hell is your definition of cheese? cuz mine sure doesn't include 2-base tier-2 frontal aggression... probably a build where you have to do a ton of dmg to stay in the game which is what this is Which is essentially every TvZ for Terran. If Terran doesn't do a ton of damage in he form of mid game pressure, any decent Zerg will win the game. Is every Terran build that relies on massive 3CC mid game prssure a cheese then?
Terran doesn't have to do a ton of damage in the mid game. As long as he trades cost efficiently terrans fine. Terran does NOT have to do economic damage to stay in the game (obviously it helps you to get ahead if you can). With how tvz works in hots terran no longer has a timer where they have to kill zerg or they lose like WoL. As long as terran can trade cost efficiently army wise then he'll be fine. If he loses a bunch of his bio and is losing a lot of units and doing very little to zerg, then yes you are right.
|
|
On June 28 2013 05:25 Steel wrote: How do you deal with hatch block and mech play?
Against hatch-block, if he sends a super-early worker, get down there with 2 Drones and don't let the engi bay even get started. If he does start it, at least you'll have 2 Drones already on the SCV to minimize the build time. Another option is to refill the gas and baneling bust (I do that pretty often against any kind of expansion block).
As for Mech, Roach/Hydra/SH/Viper works best. Ling/Ultra/Bane can work but it's not as reliable, you really need that blinding cloud in the later stages.
|
On June 28 2013 16:29 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 09:19 DaemonX wrote:On June 23 2013 03:56 bypLy wrote: your cheeses are amazing tang, keep it on what the hell is your definition of cheese? cuz mine sure doesn't include 2-base tier-2 frontal aggression... Er from a zerg that is the definition of an all in/cheese. If your tier 2 frontal aggression doesn't do enough damage (this has to do a TON of damage for it to be worth it) you lose the game unless the terran is bad. The definition of all-in/cheese is NOT a build that has to do damage to remain equal for the rest of the game. An all-in/cheese is an attack where all your eggs are in one basket. Either you win with it, or you lose.
The second barrel (Speed Roach/Ling/Bane) is far from all-in. Your goal with it isn't to win the game; your goal is to kill his army and deal whatever bonus economic damage you can. You have to do some damage for it to be worth it, you have to reset the Terran army count to give you time to Drone your third. That doesn't mean the build is any more all-in than a more reactionary style that saturates the third before heavy unit production; it's just a mid-game stylistic preference:
Option 1: Reach full 2 base saturation, build second barrel, attack and saturate the third. Option 2: Reach full 2 base saturation, build a few roaches, defend and saturate the third.
Both options arrive at the same destination, it's just the journey that's different.
|
Both options arrive at the same destination, it's just the journey that's different.
well said. ^_^
|
On June 28 2013 16:29 blade55555 wrote:
Terran doesn't have to do a ton of damage in the mid game. As long as he trades cost efficiently terrans fine. Terran does NOT have to do economic damage to stay in the game (obviously it helps you to get ahead if you can). With how tvz works in hots terran no longer has a timer where they have to kill zerg or they lose like WoL. As long as terran can trade cost efficiently army wise then he'll be fine. If he loses a bunch of his bio and is losing a lot of units and doing very little to zerg, then yes you are right.
Only because the mid-game phase lasts forever in TvZ now. Zerg Hive Tech is still way more accessible than Skyterran. As I've seen from Life vs Innovation Daybreak game from the last GSL, it was essentially the same story as in WoL. Terran abusing BL immobility before the BL/Infestor/Corrupter ball gets way too big.
I suppose what Im trying to say is that Terran can never be passive the whole game. So there is a ticking timer for Terran, or else the Zrg will simply get BL/Infestor/Viper/Corrupter ball way faster than Terran can get a mech or skyterran army. Infestors are still really good. I don't see why I am seeing such a massive comeback of muta/ling/bling and Roach timing pushes.
|
Tang, how do you feel about drone scouting in ZvT? In the reps I saw, you didn't do it, but I think it's worth while to see if your opponent is going gas or not. Pertaining to the 3-barrel, it seems that the first speedling attach is most effective against gas (specifically reaper) openings, and that it might be worthwhile to abandon the build against a no-gas opening and either play a standard muta macro game or go for early roach pressure. Have you given this any thought?
|
On June 29 2013 10:36 Lobotomist wrote: Tang, how do you feel about drone scouting in ZvT? In the reps I saw, you didn't do it, but I think it's worth while to see if your opponent is going gas or not. Pertaining to the 3-barrel, it seems that the first speedling attach is most effective against gas (specifically reaper) openings, and that it might be worthwhile to abandon the build against a no-gas opening and either play a standard muta macro game or go for early roach pressure. Have you given this any thought?
It is worth drone scouting. Very worth it. One, it suggests standard play from you(or it does not, depends on your opponents 'mind games man lol) and Two, it gives you an indication of Terran's capabilities. Gas First is actually stronger against this vs Zerg because it could be a number of things. A Hellbat Drop rush, old school Hellion Reactor, Banshees, siege tank push off of two bases, you get the idea. Whereas Gasless clearly indicates Macro gameplay or 11/11, therefore narrowing down your options and letting you hit this build's timings perfectly.
Mind though, gasless can still branch off into many things, be it two base allins, or hellbat drops, but gasless does mean that those options are avilable to the Terran later. Whereas with gas first you have to worry about those possibilities within a very immediate future.
|
On June 29 2013 10:36 Lobotomist wrote: Tang, how do you feel about drone scouting in ZvT? In the reps I saw, you didn't do it, but I think it's worth while to see if your opponent is going gas or not. Pertaining to the 3-barrel, it seems that the first speedling attach is most effective against gas (specifically reaper) openings, and that it might be worthwhile to abandon the build against a no-gas opening and either play a standard muta macro game or go for early roach pressure. Have you given this any thought? I would only drone scout with hatch-first. I feel safe with the pool-first, and I never abandon the first bust because I really have had stable/consistent results with it. The only thing an early drone scout would reveal for me is whether he went gasless (in which case I'd send out my first 6 Lings to his expansion). That being said, nothing wrong with scouting more to make variations/responses to the Terran.
|
On June 29 2013 07:43 HanSomPa wrote:
I suppose what Im trying to say is that Terran can never be passive the whole game. So there is a ticking timer for Terran, or else the Zerg will simply get BL/Infestor/Viper/Corrupter ball way faster than Terran can get a mech or skyterran army. Infestors are still really good. I don't see why I am seeing such a massive comeback of muta/ling/bling and Roach timing pushes.
That was Wings of Liberty, Not HOTS - Even Blade55555 said something along the lines of Terran don't have to do early restricting damage. That's just one person in this thread on this same page, anyone above diamond can tell you the same thing.
You may be right that Zerg can build up to a t3 advantage faster than terran (Slightly if at all any, I don't really agree with the statement but that seems to be a core tenet of your discussion so I will continue on with it) The thing is, no one goes right for vikings. Everyone goes hellions to harrass, drops, etc - The game isn't just one engagement at 30 minutes.
In Wings that was a problem, the infestor could shut down a ton of things like drops (Pre T3 phase to prevent damage) and vikings (t3 phase to protect blords), you could hold a force in place while the brood lords arrived. The slow style had a unit that made it possible.
The new infestor doesn't do 45 damage - they can't deal with vikings like they used to, IT don't deal with vikings like they used to, The bottom line is that Blord/infestor isn't mobile enough OR efficient enough vs drops + Targeted attacks. (The old range allowed you to keep your infestors while dealing with drops, now they die because of the reduced range)\
That's why you see professionals playing muta roaches banes instead of blords - Most intense, evenly matched games will not include broodlords, or at least that's what I have seen since early spring HOTS release.
|
1st forgive for my bad English, I would like to ask about 1st barrel. What should i do if my 14 lings come to his base but he completely closed his entrance. my lings only can hit his 2 depot and a factory pumping out 2 hellion ( i can't do enough damage to my opponent)
|
On July 05 2013 01:23 noeprellik wrote: 1st forgive for my bad English, I would like to ask about 1st barrel. What should i do if my 14 lings come to his base but he completely closed his entrance. my lings only can hit his 2 depot and a factory pumping out 2 hellion ( i can't do enough damage to my opponent) It's almost a sure loss. So many lings with so few drones with 0 dmg is really bad.
|
On July 05 2013 01:23 noeprellik wrote: 1st forgive for my bad English, I would like to ask about 1st barrel. What should i do if my 14 lings come to his base but he completely closed his entrance. my lings only can hit his 2 depot and a factory pumping out 2 hellion ( i can't do enough damage to my opponent) Your first barrel doesn't have to do significant damage for you to stay even. Start attacking the top of the ramp while you drone your expansion. When his first 2 hellions come out, position your lings by his expansion minerals. Keep droning and delay his expansion as long as you can. You'll be mining from your expansion; he won't be.
Just make sure, when you're not able to do much damage, that you're keeping up with the steps behind it - and use your buildings (evo chambers/roach warren/baneling nest) to wall your expansion ramp. That way, his hellions can't just run in and roast your Drones. Any Speedlings that don't die early on shouldn't be sacrificed - you can use them to help defend later (or contribute to your 2nd barrel).
|
Clark Kent aka Superman or The Man of Steel
Tim Clark aka TangSC or The Man of Creep?
Thanks for the guide. Just a bit hard if your Macro is lacking like mine.
|
Ok, so I have a question. Before starting using your pool first build and doing the first barrel, i was doing hatch pool gas (17 gas). I used to allin every time vs cc first, and the way i would go about it with my old build was to keep drones on gas, drone up to 28, get speed first then baneling nest, and busting my terran opponent.
Now, my question is: If i want to allin a cc first after opening 15pool 15gas, what do you suggest? Since i get gas that early, i feel that it opens a lot of possibilities, but i don't really know how to capitalize on that. What are my options? How much do i drone?
|
just a fancy way of saying speed roach bling all-in. i still don't see the point of making 14 lings unless you're very sure he's doing a reaper expand.
ok so yeah you get him to pull an scv or 2, take hits from a couple marines at the front, delay his CC operation for 40 secs or so (he can just get OC while waiting) but look what you have sacrificed in exchange...gas first and 5+ potential drones. you can't say that terran won't react optimally, pool into gas into 17 hatch...hmm, what else could it be?
also pointless putting up a screenshot of a terran player somehow letting his depot in the wall die to lings (as though it were a remote possibility), even plat players know how to repair it in time.
other than that, yeah, roach bling all in, well it works what can i say?
|
Ok so i played a match today. The first barrel was successful, and I kept droning preparing for the second barrel, but then at 10:10 i got hellbat dropped, and with that medivac he was all over the place. I tried to bust anyway but wihtout great success. Should I abort the second barrel if he hellbat drops me? because obviously, i must waste a lot of time chasing after the medivacs, and it delays my push. Also, should i scout after the first barrel with an overlord?
|
On July 08 2013 19:37 Asolmanx wrote: Ok so i played a match today. The first barrel was successful, and I kept droning preparing for the second barrel, but then at 10:10 i got hellbat dropped, and with that medivac he was all over the place. I tried to bust anyway but wihtout great success. Should I abort the second barrel if he hellbat drops me? because obviously, i must waste a lot of time chasing after the medivacs, and it delays my push. Also, should i scout after the first barrel with an overlord?
You can overlord scout around 7:30, if you see Starport/armory you know exactly what's up. My usual response to hellbat drops is 1spine/spore in the middle of each mineral line (which is important because if you push, you won't have Roaches/Lings to defend your drones). You can still go for the push as long as you reach the fully saturated 2 bases first - you should try to avoid attacking with less than 44 workers, otherwise it's pretty all-in.
If you want to play a more defensive style, or if you feel you've been too delayed to push, you can build the spine/spore per base, build 12 Roaches to push out and "fake" a Roach/Ling/Bane attack. Then you build 12~ lings to use with the Spines/Spores/Queens to defend while you drone to fully saturated 3 bases. I do this often when I play against the same player more than once.
|
On July 07 2013 20:20 Asolmanx wrote: Now, my question is: If i want to allin a cc first after opening 15pool 15gas, what do you suggest? Since i get gas that early, i feel that it opens a lot of possibilities, but i don't really know how to capitalize on that. What are my options? How much do i drone? The only all-ins that I've done after the 15p/15g are Roach/Ling and Ling/Bling. If you've ever seen the 28 Warren timing (8 Roaches + Speedlings at around 7:15), you can do something very similar to that. You'd just have to play around with when to refill the gas to optimize reaching 200gas to build the 8 Roaches. As for Ling/Bling, I do that as a response to being engi-blocked - could work well against CC first. If they get gas and widow mines though, any all-in will be substantially weakened.
|
On June 13 2013 10:44 awakenx wrote: Well, back to getting an early tank out to hopefully blind counter most of this, been playing too greedy recently :x
I went on a losing streak after blind 3ccing every single game. Back to the early tank.
|
On July 09 2013 03:07 Crownlol wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2013 10:44 awakenx wrote: Well, back to getting an early tank out to hopefully blind counter most of this, been playing too greedy recently :x I went on a losing streak after blind 3ccing every single game. Back to the early tank. Yeah there are a LOT of Zerg timings/all-ins in the current meta, and I'm sure many players do it blindly.
|
Question: if my first 14 lings die. Should i replenish them?? how the build order changes then? when di i start building roaches? Tnx
Never made it to the 3 barrel until now busting the hell out of terran in Plat league just with 2
|
On July 10 2013 22:29 SorrowShine wrote:Question: if my first 14 lings die. Should i replenish them?? how the build order changes then? when di i start building roaches? Tnx Never made it to the 3 barrel until now busting the hell out of terran in Plat league just with 2 I try not to build anything but Drones until full 2-base saturation, but if you lose all the Lings AND he's going hellions, you may want 6-8 lings and/or a spine to be extra safe. In general, try to skip units after the 14 lings.
|
On July 10 2013 22:15 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 03:07 Crownlol wrote:On June 13 2013 10:44 awakenx wrote: Well, back to getting an early tank out to hopefully blind counter most of this, been playing too greedy recently :x I went on a losing streak after blind 3ccing every single game. Back to the early tank. Yeah there are a LOT of Zerg timings/all-ins in the current meta, and I'm sure many players do it blindly.
You can still defend with 3CC against every all-in provided you scout it in time.
|
On July 11 2013 20:59 HanSomPa wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2013 22:15 TangSC wrote:On July 09 2013 03:07 Crownlol wrote:On June 13 2013 10:44 awakenx wrote: Well, back to getting an early tank out to hopefully blind counter most of this, been playing too greedy recently :x I went on a losing streak after blind 3ccing every single game. Back to the early tank. Yeah there are a LOT of Zerg timings/all-ins in the current meta, and I'm sure many players do it blindly. You can still defend with 3CC against every all-in provided you scout it in time. What about 14/14 baneling bust?
|
If before the second Bust i see 3 Bunkers, 6 mines and bunch of maradeurs (means ive been scouted and he knows whats coming) - should i still try to bust him or better contain? or nydus?
|
On July 12 2013 19:09 SorrowShine wrote: If before the second Bust i see 3 Bunkers, 6 mines and bunch of maradeurs (means ive been scouted and he knows whats coming) - should i still try to bust him or better contain? or nydus? The only time I wouldn't bust is if I thought he had WAY too many tanks, making it a complete slaughterfest for Roach/Ling/Bane. Against a mine-heavy defence, sacrifice a few excess overseers to take a few hits then gogo!
|
On July 12 2013 03:46 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 20:59 HanSomPa wrote:On July 10 2013 22:15 TangSC wrote:On July 09 2013 03:07 Crownlol wrote:On June 13 2013 10:44 awakenx wrote: Well, back to getting an early tank out to hopefully blind counter most of this, been playing too greedy recently :x I went on a losing streak after blind 3ccing every single game. Back to the early tank. Yeah there are a LOT of Zerg timings/all-ins in the current meta, and I'm sure many players do it blindly. You can still defend with 3CC against every all-in provided you scout it in time. What about 14/14 baneling bust? If you make double wall on the main with it, id asume you can defend it.
|
On July 13 2013 01:25 SacredCoconut wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 03:46 TangSC wrote:On July 11 2013 20:59 HanSomPa wrote:On July 10 2013 22:15 TangSC wrote:On July 09 2013 03:07 Crownlol wrote:On June 13 2013 10:44 awakenx wrote: Well, back to getting an early tank out to hopefully blind counter most of this, been playing too greedy recently :x I went on a losing streak after blind 3ccing every single game. Back to the early tank. Yeah there are a LOT of Zerg timings/all-ins in the current meta, and I'm sure many players do it blindly. You can still defend with 3CC against every all-in provided you scout it in time. What about 14/14 baneling bust? If you make double wall on the main with it, id asume you can defend it. Ahhh like with both CCs? haha would have to try it, the bust comes pretty early around 5:20
|
Just want to point out I've still been using this style to great effect, although I do the first barrel only on smaller 2-player maps like Akilon and Neoplanet. Terrans can wall their expansion in time on bigger maps like newkirk. The 2 base timing is still an incredibly strong approach to mid-game ZvT!
|
On August 15 2013 22:47 TangSC wrote: Just want to point out I've still been using this style to great effect, although I do the first barrel only on smaller 2-player maps like Akilon and Neoplanet. Terrans can wall their expansion in time on bigger maps like newkirk. The 2 base timing is still an incredibly strong approach to mid-game ZvT!
Do you have any stream clips of doing this in the recent metagame? I've tried it against Masters level players, and it just seems to not work at all anymore.
|
if only Jaedong could have read this thread...
|
On August 16 2013 01:05 grassHAT wrote: if only Jaedong could have read this thread...
I guess.. it'd work in a tournament format. Jaedong would still lose 4-2 or 4-1. This wouldn't work twice against a leet korean progamer, on a good day anyway
|
Awesome stuff, I will sent this to some Zergy friends, really nice guide <3
|
Just wanted to thank you for this strat. I can really feel how my lings micro improving doing all this harrasment early game. Cool. Some games are just won by first 14 lings ... hehe
And macroing behind attack is also getting much better
|
Hey tang,
I practiced this build for 4 days. At first it was just tons of games with no opponent, then against progressively harder AI. Though it wont be Cheater Insane, i can only beat that with super greedy play.
I spent that time perfecting my drone production, overlord timings, evo timings, gas timing, ling micro and tumor production. It has gotten to the point when a missed single inject has a significant effect or my 2nd Attack.
I used to wonder how many builds Koreans use that they practice over and over, i now know they must do builds like these. The timing is so strong for it to be just a simple macro play It is something that has to be planned and executed to perfection for maximum efficiency.
When i used it on the ladder after being able to do it in my sleep, one guy said that i had to be cheating or i had 4 bases because i had so many units (60+).
I don't know how you go about creating these builds, build optimizer? Either way, if you could design something for zvz or zvp that would be amazing. I know of your early attack zvz build but if there is something a bit more like this where the attack a little more layered, and macro oriented (with the ling zvz build i find it can get shutdown really efficiently today) . Im a very mechanical player that loses a lot due to the strategies of my opponents. So you can imagine this build is very liberating for me as it allows me to attack and macro at the same time. Since learning this build i have yet to lose a ZvT!!
btw terran players, a single tank wont save you from this build. I easily took out a players who had 3 tanks sieged with one on the high ground that also got taken out. I lost all my units but i killed the natural (almost all scvs), rest tank count and widow mine count, and was saturating my third while 16 lings were at home waiting to defend a possible drop.
|
On August 15 2013 22:47 TangSC wrote: Just want to point out I've still been using this style to great effect, although I do the first barrel only on smaller 2-player maps like Akilon and Neoplanet. Terrans can wall their expansion in time on bigger maps like newkirk. The 2 base timing is still an incredibly strong approach to mid-game ZvT!
True, but usually they don't scout this sort of play properly and have no means to scout your lings running across the map. 50% of the terrans I encounter in diamond have their supply depot down when I directly run into the main (which you should at least try) because the time between seeing the lings and lifting your depot is 1sec at most. Terrans have to be really really quick with this.
|
I second phrenzy. More material please
|
Hello,
Your build is really helpful, I melted several Terran who tried to all-in me with it.
Do you have something in the same spirit (agressivness, adapted to lower league) against Protoss ?
Thanks a lot.
|
Thanks for the guide, first of all. I've been having great success with it on ladder. Nobody expects 14 lings to run into their natural and I almost always get some scv kills too.
But what's the optimal response if you arrive at your opponent's base and you see this:
This was on Frost LE, and a 9 drone scout saw him walling in his natural. In this game I just droned up instead of the first barrel, knowing it probably wouldn't work, which allowed him to do his hellbat drops. I wonder if I should I have tried to bust the front anyways. How would you respond?
|
probably the best response if you are sure that it wont work, spend the larvae on drones and instead make a spore spine in your bases.
This is one of the biggest problems a build like this faces. If your opponent is completely safe against one of your busts, he will have lots more to hold the next push - making it significantly weaker
Edit : I think a second option is still going for an attack at the front to force him to play defensive could line up better with the build
The first barrels objective isnt to kill your opponent, its to slow him down to set your second one
|
United Kingdom10443 Posts
I think this is a very potent style as it takes the tempo away from the Terran, something that is quite difficult in the current metagame. Rather than dropping and pressuring they have to trade armies and defend.
However I think this style is very dependent on 1) map and 2) Scouting.
The success of the game depends on how much damage the "second barrel" can do because if it doesn't do enough damage the Terran will probably be way ahead. If the bust doesn't do enough you only have 2 saturated bases and if you build drones you won't have the units to hold the counter push. If you build only units instead of drones then the terran will just sit happily on 3 bases and get further ahead.
For this reason I think if the map is hard to bust or if you scout a Terran playing safe you should not go for the bust but instead take the third base and drone up whilst teching to spire to shut down drops.
To aid with the scouting. amongst other things. I quite like working overlord speed into the build. I understand this will delay or reduce the power of the bust but I think it is worth it.
|
what makes it effective is the switch in pace in games, and really screws with the opponent's comfort zone.
|
Hi there! nice guide! I'd like to use this style to delay the 3 bases economy of Terran BUT, I think when the SVC scouts your base and sees pool first and gas instead hatch first, Terran would be more defensive than usual. Is it possible do this method with some opening more standard like hatch first to deceive Terran player? Thanks in advanced.
|
My problem with the second bust is still that it hits exactly at the time when 3 medivacs full of MM shred my bases
|
still not that bad of a build,even if they build a lot of bunkers sometimes u can still bust them
|
Is this still a viable build?
Tried it a few times, it's probably 50/50 for me; but at my level of skill that means little
|
It's still a decent build.
The main problem it has it's that it's still at its core a WoL build, where Terrans don't have medivacs with boost. Dealing with drops is a massive headache if you don't have mutalisks. Hellbats and widow mines are not really a problem though.
But, if you are plat or below, it's still an excellent benchmark. Congrats if you manage to hit the timings
|
On January 03 2014 21:28 Mahtasooma wrote: My problem with the second bust is still that it hits exactly at the time when 3 medivacs full of MM shred my bases
If he has 24 marines and 3 medivacs at your base, he doesn't have enough to defend. You have the 32 defensive lings to stop the three drops, as long as you see them and micro split, a medivac cant drop marines fast enough to kill 10 lings attacking while your queen focuses.
|
On February 05 2014 11:21 Mjolnir wrote:Is this still a viable build? Tried it a few times, it's probably 50/50 for me; but at my level of skill that means little
Yea, the unfortunate part of this is that if you mess up anywhere, it can really reduce the effectiveness of the build. Not putting drones in gas at 36 or missing your 2nd gas really slows it all down. Missing drones as you're attacking with lings does even more damage to yourself than to them.
I use this strategy primarily and still mess up some things from time to time. But when you hit everything correctly, the feeling of complete raw power that you demonstrate is amazing. You really need to be exact with this build for it to be incredibly affective.
One other thing I have noticed that increases the effectiveness is sending in 3 roaches spread out to their wall during the second barrel, with your main force following right behind. The point of this is to bait the tank/window mine shots so they do little to no damage to your main force. Get your banelings in on the bunkers and head for the natural's SCVs. If you can kill the natural, you are in a great position.
|
|
Love this guide, just amazing been taking out players who is really strong. Thanks for the guide Tang!
|
One question about the first bust:
Suppose he's taking zero damage from it (which is probable), but I don't lose anything either and contain him until he has like 4 hellions out. But his 2nd orbital is in his main so he went for some sort of standard build order.
Is he actually losing anything because he can take his natural way later? Because he can still drop dem mules in his main and even produce scvs off of his other command center. Except that his main will be mined out somewhat earlier. Is it throwing off his build order big time or only very slightly?
|
On February 19 2014 17:54 Mahtasooma wrote: One question about the first bust:
Suppose he's taking zero damage from it (which is probable), but I don't lose anything either and contain him until he has like 4 hellions out. But his 2nd orbital is in his main so he went for some sort of standard build order.
Is he actually losing anything because he can take his natural way later? Because he can still drop dem mules in his main and even produce scvs off of his other command center. Except that his main will be mined out somewhat earlier. Is it throwing off his build order big time or only very slightly? You're inconveniencing him slightly if he never moves his orbital. But if you force a lift on his orbital and he has to move it from the natural into his main, that's pretty nice for you and pretty much the most you should expect the first bust to ever do.
|
|
|
|