|
Greetings fellow Protoss players and other interested readers. I am here today to hopefully convince you that in PvT the Oracle isn't just a SCV killing glass cannon to be made and thrown away once Turrets are in place.
Lets start by stating that I am a Masters level Protoss player on the EU server, around 1.2k points, don't let that discourage you about my credibility though as I am returning from a long SC2 break and am yet to climb back up to my normal top 8 spot.
How it all began I like many Protoss players discovered early on that Oracles are pretty damn good against Marines and SCVs to the point in which they can be rushed out safely and do significant damage. At first I did what we all likely did, killed everything we could and followed up with an all in to take advantage of their pain and suffering with some Voidrays mixed in; But that got boring, I don't like to all in, I also don't like throwing away expensive units.
So I started to play around with building not just 1 Oracle, but 3-4 (normally 4 but we'll get into that later). As we also all discovered, when an Oracle is on the field, Terran players do not like leaving their base until it can be deflected entirely, so how do you think they feel about 3-4 of them roaming around? Normally, fairly damn terrified, and with good reason.
This was my first experimentation with it; http://drop.sc/349207 As you can see its very poor macro and poorly executed but it was my building point that I developed it from being an all in, seeing its true potential to then find its long term use.
I used to be one of the possibly few Protoss players who simply could not do PvT, even in WoL, I just could not get my head round it and would always struggle, but thanks to this build it has become by far my strongest match up.
What your Oracles are doing + Show Spoiler +First off, this is best done with a Proxied Stargate. It doesn't have to be, but it keeps it safe from being scouted by a Reaper. Don't just proxy this in the most efficient places, they're too obvious and are checked almost every time, bring that Proxy back a bit, perhaps nearer to your 4th, somewhere that if scouted, your Stalkers can get over there to stop that Pylon going down. However the main thing is: keep it hidden- make sure you have a straight line to their Main. (Check replays at the end for a better idea of where to place the proxy, or use what you prefer).
I am starting with this instead of the build order for one reason, it is important to know why, before you know how.
Now. The aim of this build is to keep Terran in their base for as long as humanly possible. To do this you are flying your Oracles around getting them into every spot possible that they can do damage, (Remember to keep an eye out for those Widow Mine shadows though, they one shot Oracles and we don't want this to happen even once if avoidable)
Lets first discuss what we're doing with our Oracles before we look at the population build order.
Your first Oracle bee-lines straight for their mineral line and does whatever damage it possibly can killing as many SCVs as possible. Bring her back out and your second Oracle should meet up with her, fly her in see what else you can do but be careful, they're on alert, however they may be relaxed as your energy should be spent so are not expecting a second in which you can kill more SCVs or even stray Marines (Do not engage a pack of more than 5 Marines), bring her out, your third should now be here. By this point, unless your opponent is completely in shambles, you shouldn't be able to get into any more mineral lines, you can pick off SCVs on the gas if you're feeling up for it and there is no Widow Mine in place of course, do this until your 4th Oracle turns up, this is where the true fun begins. You now have 4 Oracles, best thing to do... Fly right up to that tech lab which is researching Stimpack, if its undefended, focus it, kill it, give yourself 3 more minutes of breathing room, do this more than once if possible, but do not needlessly throw your Oracles away. That reactor on the Starport/Barracks which is a bit under defended, better focus that down to. You are literally just putting out damage wherever you can whenever you can.
But wait, there is more, Oracles have more than just an attack, they also have my favourite ability of all, Revelation, this handy little spell as we are all aware reveals their units location for one whole minute, you have 4 Oracles, you have energy to spare, so why not keep this active at all times, just fly one in safely pop it down and fly off. This, in my opinion is far superior than Observers which, against good Terrans get spotted and scanned very quickly. With this constant vision of the Terrans units and Medivacs, how will they ever be able to move out or drop you without you knowing about it instantly? simple answer is, they cannot. No more pesky drops catching you off guard, no more looking away for a second to warp in and being over run, you have complete vision of their army and there is nothing they can do about it. What does this mean then? Be greedy, be as greedy as you've always wanted to be. You killed their almost completed Stimpack, which had to be restarted, you've damaged their economy, you've got complete constant vision of their army, what more could you possibly want in a PvT except the screams of Ghosts as they're killed, which is sure to come later in the match anyway.
The Build Order + Show Spoiler +You can't win a PvT with Oracles alone, unless they rage quit at the sight of them (this can happen so I don't rule it out).
Remember, this build order is purely if they're not going 1 base all in or cheesing, at which point you react accordingly. You may find your own way of doing this, perhaps a better way, this however, is how I do it and it works well enough for me. ChronoBoosted Probes will be mentioned, if not it is just assumed you're building them. 9 Pylon, 10-11 Probe ChronoBoosted, 11 Scout, (if you're comfortable not scouting like myself, don't do this, however do scout if you're not (For those who do scout, get in and get out and go straight to the Proxy location once you've scouted their gas)) 12-14 Probe ChronoBoosted, 13 Gate, 15 Double Gas (2 in each), 16 Pylon, Send out Probe to Proxy location if you did not scout at 11 17 Core, (1 more in each gas to fill them) 18-19 Probe ChronoBoosted, When Core is done Stalker, ChronoBoost it (For the Reaper that is most likely coming) Proxy Pylon before MSC, after Stalker. MSC, Stargate down asap. Bring Probe home, or if you have not scouted at all yet, loop him round to a normal scouting path and check their natural. Second Stalker, asap, ChronoBoosted, 4th Pylon, First Oracle should be started asap, Expand, Second Oracle as soon as first finishes, Keep building Oracles until you have 4 of them, Get two more Gates and your Robotics and start going to Colossus and your upgrades, 3rd 4th Gas, Once you've kept them busy long enough to tech up and deal damage with the Oracles you can safely take your third, whilst teching to HTs.
What you're looking for and how to react. + Show Spoiler +Much like with Phoenix's in PvP and PvZ, your Oracles will scout everything that is happening. What they see, dictates how you respond, so lets go over the most important things you're looking for.
1. Most importantly, more than anything, is that Widow Mine Shadow, one misclick, one mistake, you lose an Oracle for nothing, keep your Oracles alive, the Mine stays in the Terran base and not in a Medivac flying to your base. (A single Oracle will kill a Widow Mine before it burrows if you start hitting it before it starts burrowing. Do not try it if you're unsure if you'll get it in time, its not worth the risk.)
2. Barracks, or Factory? Do they have more Barracks? Add on 2 Gates before Robo. Do they have a Factory? Robo, before 2 Gates. (This is to ensure you have an Observer should they get passed with a Widow Mine in a Medivac) Plus, with their lower Bio production, you can get to Colossus quicker without concern of having too few ground units.
3. If they have their Factory up you may want to consider only building 3 Oracles and getting a Robo up faster if you're nervous about a Widow Mine drop.
4. 3rd CC being build, delay it if possible, Prepare for your own 3rd.
5. Missile Turrets at main and natural. They are moving out to your main with an attack force. Oracles come home, Warp in Zealots and Stalkers, MSC Nexus Cannon, when attack commences, hit at front with army, Oracle beams come from behind, Time Warp to make sure no one survives. (This should come at a time in which you've got your Robo and 3 Gates, anything before can be cleaned up with a couple Stalkers and MSC Nexus Cannon, if that is the case, use this opportunity to snipe some Techlabs or Reactors)
6. Are they going mech? Colossus, Immortals, you've got that Stargate still alive as its well hidden, throw in some Voidrays.
7. Look at their Marine count, Oracles can handle Marines in low numbers, do not risk an Oracle to kill a few Marines, you want them alive.
8. If you can't reveal the whole army, reveal something important, Ghosts, Medivacs, Vikings.
EDIT: 9. Do not show your hand with the snipe on the Tech lab until you can kill it out right, if you have to pull back and they repair it, it'll be very unlikely you'll get another shot at this.
Strengths and Weaknesses + Show Spoiler +Strengths; This build more than anything, buys you time, it keeps the Terran busy and in their base. A Terran wants to keep you busy, this build turns it around and gives the power back in your hands.
Constant harassment, one thing Protoss lacked was harassment in PvT that wasn't just throw away units, with these Oracles you can keep harassing all game long.
Constant vision, thanks to revelation, no Terran unit goes anywhere without you having vision of it.
Defend pressures, Oracles with Gateway unit support can take down small numbers of units with ease.
Weaknesses; The weaknesses in my experience come entirely from player fault rather than build fault, so these can be crossed off if you're confident in your ability.
You're playing like a Zerg does, harassment where possible, full focus on eco whilst teching, reacting to what you see and building units when needed, so if you don't see it coming, and it does end up catching you off guard, you may not have enough to defend.
Expensive, A Stargate and 4 Oracles are not cheap, they are pretty damn expensive, they require a lot of investment.
Micro intensive, and when I say Micro intensive, I mean it, these Oracles should never stop moving, they need to be baby sat all game, if not looked after they can be killed fairly quickly, so Macro will suffer at times as you're focusing on them too much. Players who have superb Macro whilst using units like this, will not have this issue.
Unspotted Widow Mines, Widow Mines one shot Oracles, you miss them, you're gonna be in trouble. Which is one reason you cannot take your eyes off of them.
Replays + Show Spoiler +
|
This looks like an interesting and innovative build. And I'm in sore need of PvT help (around 40% right now) Cheers
|
Really interesting build and looks super strong, but I'm most entertained by the game against the Barcode, as obnoxious as he was he shut this down really well, and I'm not 100% convinced he was cheating.
|
Try to analyze another thing:
4 oracles -> 2 void rays -> stalkers from 3 gates and allin it is good to allin with such opening
or at least 4 oracles -> mass army -> hold terran natural and be greed
Pretty standard build in top ML that is not a lot better then standard play .. you are throwing away 600 (750) gas for almost nothing Terran should just build 5 rax ( i mean rax-cc-+2rax+2rax) without factory, 1/0, take some scvs and kill you
5 rax are terrible vs standard play because of sentry ramp block, but vs oracles it is a hard counter i think
But sometimes you can use it ofc, it works pretty randomly
|
On July 17 2013 17:23 Val_ wrote: Try to analyze another thing:
4 oracles -> 2 void rays -> stalkers from 3 gates and allin much more better to allin with such opening
Pretty standard build in top ML that is not a lot better then standard play .. you are throwing away 600 (750) gas for almost nothing Terran should just build 5 rax ( i mean rax-cc-+2rax+2rax) without factory, 1/0, take some scvs and kill you
5 rax are terrible vs standard play because of sentry ramp block, but vs oracles it is a hard counter i think
But sometimes you can use it ofc, it works pretty randomly The gas is in no way going to nothing, you are using the gas to kill workers, upgrades like stimpack, stray Marines, small packs of Marines and constant vision of their army. Were the build to have no value and to do absolutely nothing worth while, why would I do or and even more so, why would I even consider posting about it if I wasn't convinced in its use. Secondly, 5 Rax no Factory would be pretty damn good vs this... were they able to know I was doing this before they started their Factory, which more often than not is almost never the case, by the time I have 3-4 Oracles, Factory has finished and at the least is currently building. But as always someone managing to blindly counter your build will almost always be successful, but fortunately, it is rarely the case.
|
|
This seems annoying to deal with, I hope I don't have to face this
Off topic, what happens if you put revelation on marines and the Terran puts these marines inside a medivac that isn't "revelationed".
Do you see the medivac or not?
|
I really like the build, will make me work my multitask even if my PvT ratio is my best 70%. Question : What if the terran get 1 or 2 vickings ? Game over ?
|
On July 17 2013 21:08 BerthaG wrote: I really like the build, will make me work my multitask even if my PvT ratio is my best 70%. Question : What if the terran get 1 or 2 vickings ? Game over ?
I asked myself the same question.. But if he commits to 1-2 vikings, his medivacs are pretty hard delayed and also you can crono out 2 phoenixes or maybe start entirely phoenix production after them oracles.
|
On July 17 2013 17:59 Kvassten wrote:This seems annoying to deal with, I hope I don't have to face this Off topic, what happens if you put revelation on marines and the Terran puts these marines inside a medivac that isn't "revelationed". Do you see the medivac or not?
Yes, in fact you do, I discovered this the other day, one of the replays shows this.
On July 17 2013 21:08 BerthaG wrote: I really like the build, will make me work my multitask even if my PvT ratio is my best 70%. Question : What if the terran get 1 or 2 vickings ? Game over ?
When the build some Vikings it is an issue and a pain to deal with but you are in no way dead. All it means is you're not able to snipe as much tech off, and you have to be more careful with your Oracles, you can build a couple Phoenix's if you truly want to get back in. Most importantly what this does is delay their Medivacs, and will be less able to build more Vikings later for your Colossus due to their low Medivac count. Another thing to note, as you're picking off so much they're spending more on Turrets and replacing SCVs, they are going to be using all of their Mules. Meaning they're may not be aware of your Colossus switch and by the time you have 3 Colossus they have only the 1-2 Vikings, however this cannot be guaranteed so don't rely on that, it can just happen vs some Terrans.
|
I've been waiting for people to start trying multiple Oracles in PvT! They are so strong against most of the things Terran has early on (SCVs, Marines, Hellions, they even kill Hellbats faster than anything else does.) As stated above they can hold a Terran in their base for far longer than anything else Protoss can do, allowing toss to get a super early third base. But I want to see if they can be taken even further. Can multiple Oracles pose enough of a threat to MMM that you can skip robo tech all together and go straight into Storm? Can Chargelot/Oracle work as an army comp in the early midgame? I'm not sure but I'm gonna try it.
|
Sounds fun. I am high platinum and am eager to try this out against a Terran player later tonight.
|
1 gate oracle is my go to pvt build, do it all the time. I'm kind of split on building more than 2 oracles, imo it depends on what your first oracle sees. If your first oracle sees a completed reactor on the rax and eng bay with turrets down, I would stop at 2. It is possible and it happens often with 3 or more oracles that you can kill a turret with oracles without losing one, even in the mineral line, but I don't like relying on something like this. I prefer to focus my 150/150 and apm on getting more ahead in other ways.
Also, I find it's better against say a reaper expand where they don't have critical mass of marines to not engage the weapon with the first oracle if they pull their scvs fast( which they should)
Also, I don't agree with the 11 scout, an 11 gate is stable and (obviously) gets the oracle out much faster. And one stalker is all that's necessary to deflect stuff and all you can afford before your first oracle. When the first oracle hits I like to pressure their front with a stalker or two right before to distract them and/or pull marines away from the oracle.
I don't have much experience with the robo transition as twilight, which is my go to since it allows me to get way ahead in upgrades which goes hand in hand with eco. Another thing is I want the terran to try and drop me since I have hts and I feel confident I can come out ahead even if I don't respond well to the drops. Robo does force vikings which cost gas but ghosts cost gas too and force tech labs.
|
Awesome!
Abuse revelations, it is massively imba, land them on Vikings or medivacs and you'll effectively be able to counter EVERYTHING the Terran goes for.
|
I love the Idea. and will be practicing this alot. Thank you very much for the guide.
|
|
On July 18 2013 23:18 Sated wrote: You should watch game one of ToD vs. Happy from WCS EU last night. ToD only went up to 3 Oracles, and he got his Stargate/Oracle a lot faster, but the idea was pretty similar. I had a quick look. The way ToD does it is to rush it for asap Oracles using the 2nd Pylon as the Proxy instead of the 3rd which makes you more vulnerable at home as well were a Proxy of their own coming up. Were Happy to of scouted ToDs main instead of putting up the Engi bay, Happy would of instantly known Proxy Oracles and would have been in position to deflect and would of had an build his Engi bay much quicker making it do far less damage. Also, the function of ToDs Proxy Oracles was asap mineral line damage at high risk, just like when a Terran tries to get a very fast Widow Mine in your mineral line, scouted it does barely anything, if not, it does a lot at which point you're miles ahead and just get more ahead.
|
So I just improvised a version of your build on ladder on NA ladder (master league), sans the proxy stargate (it was whirlwind) but it still worked out really well. I also transitioned into colossus since I figured it would be faster and better at stopping a big frontal attack (I've got vision of his army with revalation so defending drops isn't a big deal). I'll just attach the replay so you can see it for yourself! http://drop.sc/349553
|
On July 19 2013 14:13 Erik.TheRed wrote:So I just improvised a version of your build on ladder on NA ladder (master league), sans the proxy stargate (it was whirlwind) but it still worked out really well. I also transitioned into colossus since I figured it would be faster and better at stopping a big frontal attack (I've got vision of his army with revalation so defending drops isn't a big deal). I'll just attach the replay so you can see it for yourself! http://drop.sc/349553 I don't know if I'd use it on other maps but certainly a variation for that map simply due to its size.
Half of what the Oracles are doing early on when Proxied and brought out before Expo is keeping Terran contained during that period, by doing them later you leave yourself open to fast drops and Widow Mines. Whereas with the faster proxy, these mines almost never leave their base. Also due to the design of the map, a Reaper really struggles to get inside so scouting is easily deflected (unless they scan) at which point they have turrets up and you've lost your window to really do much damage at all. Another thing you miss out on is the opportunity to snipe Tech labs and Reactors as research like Stim are already done by the time you get into a position to focus it safely.
What the proxy 4 Oracles can do is put the Terran on the defensive when they have low tech, low Marine count, and low income making them spend money where they don't want to, when they don't want to. Delaying them puts Terran into a spot where they can build Turrets about and be fine as they'd do this for DTs anyway.
However on a map like Whirlwind, assuming the Terran isn't going for fast Widow Mine drops, it will work fine, but I certainly wouldn't go up to 4 Oracles as most of the energy will never get used, I'd say for your variation get no more than 2 as at that point you 1 shot SCVs and can keep up revelation giving you a faster transition.
|
I am still having good success with this build and it is still my go to strategy on all maps except neo planet s (due to there being no good proxy locations that don't get scouted instantly) and I was wondering, should people want it, would anybody like me to make an instructional video going step by step through the build and my though process. However if everyone feels the build is straight forward enough I will not make it... Just offering though in case someone does want it.
|
i would be interested for you to make a video on it
|
just watch MaximusBlack's stream. His PvT is good, he is at like 95% win-rate on EU, most likely the same in NA.
|
On July 25 2013 22:02 shadow_orc wrote: i would be interested for you to make a video on it Okay, I will get it done for/at the weekend. Bit tired after work to really get it done during the week.
On July 25 2013 22:20 TXRaunchy wrote: just watch MaximusBlack's stream. His PvT is good, he is at like 95% win-rate on EU, most likely the same in NA. I'm sure he appreciates your plugging of his stream but this guide is not a complete PvT run down, it is an opening that I have been playing with and decided to share that has made my PvT my best match up.
|
how do you deal with mines that are already placed in the middle of SCV's mineral mines? that's what terrans always do the moment they scan my stargate
|
On July 26 2013 05:26 b_unnies wrote: how do you deal with mines that are already placed in the middle of SCV's mineral mines? that's what terrans always do the moment they scan my stargate As said in the original description of the build, it is best to proxy your Stargate to simply avoid the Terran being able to just scan it or for Reaper builds to just walk into it, they then have to actively look for it, or be caught off guard, or blindly counter with fingers crossed.
However, when Mines are active, this shouldn't stop you from dealing damage where you can, don't forget about those Add ons, most Terrans (at least the ones I face in high Masters) still don't think to protect them against a group of Oracles except until you destroy one or two of them. Plus when you've gotten the hang of baby sitting your Oracles and know the tells of Widow Mines and can react quickly enough to not get hit, what you can do is abuse any poor placement of the Mine and pick off outlying SCVs, or SCVs building structures and Marines (assuming the numbers are good enough that you don't take a poor fight) I have been experimenting with getting out 2 Phoenix's once the Robo is done so that any defensive Mines can be spotted with the Observer and the two Phoenix's can fly in, one picks up the other kills, leaving that location defenceless (As Terrans who blindly defend with Widow Mines, or with rushed Widow Mines rarely put up a Turret to (and even if they do, 4 Oracles kill a Turret pretty damn fast)) What you can also try do if you're brave is with the Observer spotting the Mine, you can fly in with their attack active and focus it down, it should die before it gets the shot off but I have not experimented with this just yet. So your damage output to mineral lines will be delayed.
But as I also said in the original post, this build isn't entirely designed to do crippling damage, it certainly has the potential to, I have been in games vs Terrans on 3 base vs 3 base with 30 more Probes to SCVs and a very large supply lead with no army to army conflicts happening. The main intention of this build is to keep Terran on the defensive all game until you have the 3 bases a Protoss needs to make their most effective army and be able to rebuild it. The build makes unspotted drops a near impossibility (assuming you keep Revelation up constantly) and allows you to be very greedy because of it because you can remain in a defensive stance with your main army all game, whereas the Terran is running around after these pesky Oracles.
|
Kracen, thanks so much! This build is AWESOME!
Even when I lose, this style of playing is SO MUCH MORE FUN than the normal "sit back and try not to get my head bashed in with medivac drops" playstyle.
And it helps me learn to multitask better as you're right, the demands are pretty high. :D
|
On July 29 2013 13:42 ensign_lee wrote: Kracen, thanks so much! This build is AWESOME!
Even when I lose, this style of playing is SO MUCH MORE FUN than the normal "sit back and try not to get my head bashed in with medivac drops" playstyle.
And it helps me learn to multitask better as you're right, the demands are pretty high. :D You will get slaughtered when the t is on top of his scouting. The 10 min push is going to be even stronger, cause there is no reason to mix marus in. Also in the OP there is no mentioning of building a Zealot, my scouting scv is gonna make you cry when you spot the 95% ebay (maybe even let it finish for a fast turret).
|
Hey there,
I'm not exactly sure but I believe a command center first build or even an 12/12 reaper expand will have sufficient units to minimize or nullify your oracles and the best situation (not losing them) would still lead to a Terran advantage. You mention to get 2 more gateways before robotics when you scout that there is a bio build instead of factory followup (minedrop) but I'd say that you should get the robo regardless. MSC with photon overcharge and the oracle count you have will make you save against anything that a bio player can throw at you relatively early.
The first push that is dangerous and I believe would potentially kill you (when adding 2 gates before robo) is a medivac stim timing at 9:45 (medivacs pop). It has enough DPS to shred gateway/oracle and your colossi are late, because you delayed the robo. As mentioned, I'm not certain how this works out, but a delayed robo for the reason that Terran goes bio isn't really what you want to do, as you cannot punish a player that already invested into tech heavily in addition to having the MSC. I also believe, the earlier robo would allow for an immortal if really neccessary. Most Terrans will sit in their base vs oracles, as oracles are annoying and can always pick off a few workers here and there, so you should play greedy behind it, to make up for your investment.
Just my take on it, (1800p Terran EU right now if that matters to anyone here)
|
On July 29 2013 15:27 gingerfluffmuff wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2013 13:42 ensign_lee wrote: Kracen, thanks so much! This build is AWESOME!
Even when I lose, this style of playing is SO MUCH MORE FUN than the normal "sit back and try not to get my head bashed in with medivac drops" playstyle.
And it helps me learn to multitask better as you're right, the demands are pretty high. :D You will get slaughtered when the t is on top of his scouting. The 10 min push is going to be even stronger, cause there is no reason to mix marus in. Also in the OP there is no mentioning of building a Zealot, my scouting scv is gonna make you cry when you spot the 95% ebay (maybe even let it finish for a fast turret).
Actually due to the fact that you have 4 Oracles running around, the damage done on SCVs, stray Marines, potentially even Tech lab researching Stim, Reactor on Starport ect... The 10 minute push is either so delayed its worthless, or is so much smaller its basically just the Terran gifting you free units at that point. As for the Engi block, you go right ahead, I don't intend on expanding until my first Oracle is on the way or done anyway, it delays it by a little bit, but not as much as you think it would as I have a Stalker out and MSC asap so I'll get the block out of the way. Also as I've said, Turrets are a minor inconvenience in mineral lines, I'll be fine picking off ones at the edges instead and as you pull away toward the Turret you lose mining time to.
On July 29 2013 15:40 NarutO wrote: Hey there,
I'm not exactly sure but I believe a command center first build or even an 12/12 reaper expand will have sufficient units to minimize or nullify your oracles and the best situation (not losing them) would still lead to a Terran advantage. You mention to get 2 more gateways before robotics when you scout that there is a bio build instead of factory followup (minedrop) but I'd say that you should get the robo regardless. MSC with photon overcharge and the oracle count you have will make you save against anything that a bio player can throw at you relatively early.
The first push that is dangerous and I believe would potentially kill you (when adding 2 gates before robo) is a medivac stim timing at 9:45 (medivacs pop). It has enough DPS to shred gateway/oracle and your colossi are late, because you delayed the robo. As mentioned, I'm not certain how this works out, but a delayed robo for the reason that Terran goes bio isn't really what you want to do, as you cannot punish a player that already invested into tech heavily in addition to having the MSC. I also believe, the earlier robo would allow for an immortal if really neccessary. Most Terrans will sit in their base vs oracles, as oracles are annoying and can always pick off a few workers here and there, so you should play greedy behind it, to make up for your investment.
Just my take on it, (1800p Terran EU right now if that matters to anyone here)
Due to the fast Stalker and MSC fast Reapers can be denied still, perhaps losing 1-2 Probes but that is more a pain than a death sentence. Also, I've recently been playing about with getting Robo before Gates regardless and have been having good success.
And as I said above that 9:45-10 minute push does not happen, the damage you deal and the multi tasking you force out of the Terran means that it is so delayed that I almost never see it at a strength in which it is actually a threat.
|
Samples of Terran timings if played correctly that I fear will demolish you, as he is ahead in economy. 'The damage you deal' is not something you should consider, as a good Terran might minimize or even nullify it and even taken into consideration he would build 3 turrets, he can cut a few marauders as your AoE would be late and potentially even speed up his timing. Also the multitasking you force out of Terran applies to you as well, if you don't multitask well, you might end up losing an oracle or just not being effective with them. I'd actually love to play vs you and that build to see how below mentioned timings work. (Investment is 750 gas, 4 oracle, msc, stalker with very late gas 3+4)
I can see them not working vs a less comitted stargate, but 4 oracles
12/12 Reaper -> Minedrop -> Bio Push out when your first set of Medivacs finish (@10:10ish) with 3 Medivacs, around 6 Marauders and 26 Marines, and 53 SCVs at home.
CC First with 3rd CC Push out with your first 2 Medivacs (@9:45ish) with 52 SCVs, around 20 Marines and 6 Marauders, 2 Medivacs, and Stim/+1 Attack
Bombers Reaper FE: Push out when your first 2 Medivacs pop (@9:45ish) with 2 Medivacs, 2 Marauders, around 28 Marines, Stimpack, Combat Shields, and +1 Attack.
DemusliM Style: Benchmark: When your Stimpack finishes (@9:50ish), you should have 4 Medivacs, 48 SCVs, and around 22 Marines and 3 Marauders
All of those timings are crucial and will not by delayed by a lot (if any) due to oracles, as you either have high marine count or mines. As mentioned, getting colossi early is crucial as the timings from Terran murder gateway+oracle and have enough healing power to make photon overcharge less of a problem.
Example:
http://imbabuilds.com/hots-protoss/hots-pvt/pvt-mcs-oracle-expand/
"However, opening with this build delays your expand a lot more than if you had opened straight 1gate FE. Because you have less economy, the midgame Terran timing attacks with medivacs are even scarier than normal (unless you do damage with your Oracles), so you actually have to do damage to attempt to transition into the midgame. Remember that Oracles have very little health, so you have to babysit your units if you have any hope of not losing them instantly to a well placed turret/mine."
|
On July 29 2013 16:25 NarutO wrote: Samples of Terran timings if played correctly that I fear will demolish you, as he is ahead in economy. 'The damage you deal' is not something you should consider, as a good Terran might minimize or even nullify it and even taken into consideration he would build 3 turrets, he can cut a few marauders as your AoE would be late and potentially even speed up his timing. Also the multitasking you force out of Terran applies to you as well, if you don't multitask well, you might end up losing an oracle or just not being effective with them. I'd actually love to play vs you and that build to see how below mentioned timings work. (Investment is 750 gas, 4 oracle, msc, stalker with very late gas 3+4)
I can see them not working vs a less comitted stargate, but 4 oracles
12/12 Reaper -> Minedrop -> Bio Push out when your first set of Medivacs finish (@10:10ish) with 3 Medivacs, around 6 Marauders and 26 Marines, and 53 SCVs at home.
CC First with 3rd CC Push out with your first 2 Medivacs (@9:45ish) with 52 SCVs, around 20 Marines and 6 Marauders, 2 Medivacs, and Stim/+1 Attack
Bombers Reaper FE: Push out when your first 2 Medivacs pop (@9:45ish) with 2 Medivacs, 2 Marauders, around 28 Marines, Stimpack, Combat Shields, and +1 Attack.
DemusliM Style: Benchmark: When your Stimpack finishes (@9:50ish), you should have 4 Medivacs, 48 SCVs, and around 22 Marines and 3 Marauders
All of those timings are crucial and will not by delayed by a lot (if any) due to oracles, as you either have high marine count or mines. As mentioned, getting colossi early is crucial as the timings from Terran murder gateway+oracle and have enough healing power to make photon overcharge less of a problem. I believe you're looking at this fairly incorrectly, yes this timings are strong, I know them all too well as I myself am I high ranking Protoss like you a high ranking Terran, (at this moment I am 200 points behind you and I am still rising)
You're making the assumption that practically 0 damage is dealt with these 4 Oracles, which is near impossible, you will deal damage. you will kill a handful of Marines as the Terran expects 1-2 Oracles, not 4 and therefore may only have 6-12 Marines on guard, and 4 Oracles make short work of them, halving the Marine count of all those pushes instantly. You will kill SCVs on the outer edges and building structures like Refineries, more Barracks, Factor, even Starport, which delays all of those pushes. You can even pick off Reactors and Tech labs (preferably ones researching stim/CS) incredibly fast when focused, even an instant SCV pull to repair is not always enough to save it delaying it the pushes even further.
As for each one of the pushes, you have your Nexus Cannon, Gateway units and Oracles attacking as they kite back to kill that army so it will not in anyway demolish you assuming you play correctly. That is making the assumption you did 0 damage with your Oracles which as I said is practically impossible.
|
Oracle is more and more being used in pro league as well. Hero used it during wcs couple of days ago. Looking forward to your build step by step vid or rep.
|
I think I ran across this on the ladder two days ago and it shredded my Marauder/Marine/Hellbat/Medivac composition really quickly. I'm still really ignorant of quick, instinctual responses, but so far I'm reading mines as the appropriate response? Is there other Terran defenses/attacks that you've found you've struggled with?
|
On August 03 2013 04:37 Seraphim_EU wrote: Oracle is more and more being used in pro league as well. Hero used it during wcs couple of days ago. Looking forward to your build step by step vid or rep. I actually completely forgot to do it, I've just been too busy, barely been able to play on ladder let alone make the video but I'll get around to it as soon as I can.
On August 03 2013 07:52 Matta wrote: I think I ran across this on the ladder two days ago and it shredded my Marauder/Marine/Hellbat/Medivac composition really quickly. I'm still really ignorant of quick, instinctual responses, but so far I'm reading mines as the appropriate response? Is there other Terran defenses/attacks that you've found you've struggled with? Personally I find that the things this build struggles with is almost entirely player fault, when I make a mistake is where it falls short. However, if there is anything the Terran can directly do is be completely on the ball, Turrets at crucial locations, Mines in supporting locations as well... Just deny me any long term damage the best you can to have the best chance later on in the match.
|
Take your time man, btw did you ever play on SEA server? Have a feeling we met on ladder if kracen is your ladder nick
|
I just played a game against this (rank 1 diamond, facing low masters/top diamonds) and won, but the build is really strong. The 4 oracles caught me completely off guard and sniped my stim as well as a reactor, really delaying my 2 medivac timing. When i got to his base he already had 2 colossi up, and kept revelating my army so i couldnt drop. I figured after 15 min all the gas he spent on oracles, wouldve delayed his storm and went for an scv pull to get the win. Upon checking the replay, I saw that his storm was about halfway done when i hit (about 16:20, which is usually too late).
My views on the build:
Pros: -Agree with Kracen, this build is guaranteed to do some damage, as you will never expect 4 oracles coming in all of a sudden. In some cases, this build is just an auto win. -Always knows where the main bulk of the opponents army is, therefore being fairly safe to drops.
Cons: -The gas investment really delays any tech, and is susceptible to scv pulls (since templar tech will be delayed). -You will a lot of the time end up behind on upgrades, due to the oracles.
Looking forward to some thoughts on my thoughts :D
|
Is the best response from Terran just good placement of turrets/mines/marines or do you think there is a counter-attack option while you are spending so much resources on oracles. Also do you have any experience against a fast viking using this build?
Thank you, very good write up and responses
|
On August 05 2013 03:43 Jay Arell wrote: I just played a game against this (rank 1 diamond, facing low masters/top diamonds) and won, but the build is really strong. The 4 oracles caught me completely off guard and sniped my stim as well as a reactor, really delaying my 2 medivac timing. When i got to his base he already had 2 colossi up, and kept revelating my army so i couldnt drop. I figured after 15 min all the gas he spent on oracles, wouldve delayed his storm and went for an scv pull to get the win. Upon checking the replay, I saw that his storm was about halfway done when i hit (about 16:20, which is usually too late).
My views on the build:
Pros: -Agree with Kracen, this build is guaranteed to do some damage, as you will never expect 4 oracles coming in all of a sudden. In some cases, this build is just an auto win. -Always knows where the main bulk of the opponents army is, therefore being fairly safe to drops.
Cons: -The gas investment really delays any tech, and is susceptible to scv pulls (since templar tech will be delayed). -You will a lot of the time end up behind on upgrades, due to the oracles.
Looking forward to some thoughts on my thoughts :D 600 Gas early on is not an investment most people like to make for that very reason, it delays tech so much. But what you can do because of it, is play like Zerg, expand, build Probes, and only build units when they attack because you have constant vision. Think of it like having a pack of Mutalisks, you know where their army is at all times, whilst you're just building your production, tech and economy up, the second they move out you pump out units (Gateway units that is, rest of the time is spent on HT and Colossus with consistent production.) As you can see in the replays I have provided I sit on only a few units until they move out, in which I then have an influx.
You will be behind on upgrades, it is something you really cannot avoid as you need to tech to Colossus and HT, however due to the damage you deal and the tech of theirs you delay, I believe being slightly behind is acceptable as they won't have the army they want when they do a 1-1 or 2-2 timing.
As for the SCV pull move, it works sometimes, if they have Storm its very unlikely. If they're on top of their tech tree they should have Storm in time though.
On August 05 2013 04:25 geoIOPS wrote: Is the best response from Terran just good placement of turrets/mines/marines or do you think there is a counter-attack option while you are spending so much resources on oracles. Also do you have any experience against a fast viking using this build?
Thank you, very good write up and responses
In my experience, the best thing a Terran can do versus this is remain calm and play well, defend key areas (Mineral lines, Tech labs, Reactors ect.) Place your Turrets to fully cover Mineral lines, don't have a portion of it slightly out of the radius, as I will happily force you to move all your SCVs to one side of the patches. Mines are very easily spotted for a good player, and should almost never (unless forced into it) fly over one, therefore what I would recommend putting them in defensive but slightly more obscure locations where we wouldn't initially look whilst moving them, other than that I can't think of any way to use Mines to kill Oracles, in Mineral lines they just act as a deterrent and I'll just do damage else where.
One of the replays should be a fast Viking and I've seen it several times and it is quite simply. 1-2 Vikings isn't that much of a threat to a light unit with fairly decent Shields/Hull you can easily dance around it with better speed and you can even take a few shots to pick off some Workers without much worry.
|
I think what naruto is saying is that if the terran plays correctly and minimizes the damage then it's a bad build. It's not a bad thing and many pro builds do it, but you should be honest about it and realize that if you do no damage then a 945 stim medivac timing could probably kill you. so just be conscious that it has a tiny bit of an allin factor to it and accept it
|
On August 05 2013 06:09 aldochillbro wrote: I think what naruto is saying is that if the terran plays correctly and minimizes the damage then it's a bad build. It's not a bad thing and many pro builds do it, but you should be honest about it and realize that if you do no damage then a 945 stim medivac timing could probably kill you. so just be conscious that it has a tiny bit of an allin factor to it and accept it I was not disputing that a 9:45 Stim Medivac timing would likely kill someone who has expended 600 gas on non splash damage tech and lacked unit control. I was disputing the claim that this will do 0 damage as that is near impossible, even when top players do everything right, you still do damage, heck even if its killing the SCV building the Starport or a few SCVs on gas, you do damage that will delay the timing. Even in matches where I played really poorly and was careless with my Oracles doing minimum damage I have defended the timing with the use of a good unit balance and Nexus Cannon, also, assuming you macro correctly, you should have at least 1 Colossus done in time.
|
|
Oh my gosh, I hate you so much Kracen lol A friend of mine is using this build and now I lost almost all the TvP even early game, because I don't spam things like idiot and really 4 Oracles are devastating, I got shocked many times seeing my Marines dying or even scouting it and watch how they kill all before the Turrets shut them down... The last time he destroyed my AddOns so he delayed all, and after the Oracles he goes for few Phoenixes and then Templars/Colossi, so most of my counterdrops are getting hunted, specially when he uses Revelation over and over >_< Also he builds the Stargate not so much like a Proxy but mostly outside his base on his 4th or near the 3rd, so I usually miss it and catch me off guard =/ I won few times but it was mostly because his mistakes on multitask instead my own gameplay
I think the worst part is that he likes to push me early with Stalker and MotherCore, so it is more difficult to establish my Natural down, and kills me some Marines or SCV with the MotherCore if I missmicro something or got behind on macro for just few seconds pumping Marines -_-
|
Hey Kracen I think drop.sc is down (at least for me) can you upload replays somewhere else? (ggtracker or something).
Thanks
|
The build is great I really like it. My Win ratio vs Terran is the highest, but I have recently having trouble as I climb the ladder to diamond.
My only problem I see is that your tech is REALLY behind. I always seem to lose to the "2 medivac" timing. And without collosi in fair amount of numbers you can't really hold. You assume that you'll do "damage" with the oracles. But if defended like you said you said you pick off scv from starport or gas or factory. This will delay only so much. However, protoss have spent 600 gas, later expansion thus later 3/4 gas, which results in a really late collosi or templar tech. Assuming you delayed his push for about a minute. At the 11 mark I don't think you'll have enough collosi or gateway units to hold off a push. I am not the highest rank player, but that's my 2 cents.
You claim that Protoss will do DAMAGE, and that Naruto isn't respecting that, but you seem to not put into account that what if "not enough damage is dealt."
Now once again I'm plat and I don't have the highest game sense or knowledge, but we are all "assuming" including you and Naruto, I think the build is great, but if you refer to SPECIFIC replays showing terran defending, but you still doing enough damage and holding a push, I think you'll provide more "evidence" for these claims.
|
The truth is, I don't have any replays with what you describe, as I said in the original post the biggest problem is player fault, so most of my "shut down" replays are actually due to my own mistakes and not the actions of the Terran, damage is done by the Terran not being able to drop at a fast drop timing, building more marines, turrets and widow mines being kept in their base, and as long as you're confident in using oracles to defend and a msc/gateway army on any medivac pushes it should never kill you. But as I said I have no replays of this specific nature as they would be issues in my play and not the terrans actions (such as staying too long in turret range losing and Oracle or engaging too many marines.
|
My friend is spamming Revelation after he can't harass anymore, and pumping some Phoenixes, so I am not able to push, I tried with Tanks, with Drops, anything, and most of the time he simply owns me killing the drop with Phoenixes, lifting my Tanks and Amoving over my little army because his harass.
The only times I was able to win where when he failed on macro because lack of multitask, but often that doesn't happen and I lost the "timing" when you are supposed to dealt damage to the Protoss, and he already gets enough Gates and Colossi/Templar to make the game painfull for me.
This is like a good build order but doesn't make you a good player. If you lack of skill, there will be a point where you won't be able to apply it to high level players. Like a Bronze 4 Gating on WoL, a Platinum would be able to stop it no matter what because the difference on multitask and Micro, not because the build is "for low level" but because the build requires more skill "for high level"
I simply throw games away after few minutes because I wasn't able to do anything with Revelation on me over and sometimes Phoenixes scouting around.
|
This build doesn't make you a good player? Okay im sorry but it does, when doing this properly and well, and if you put in phoenixs like your friend does, your multi tasking is getting taxed to the extreme, watching enemy movements, harassing with two flying units which are controlled separately, macroing up to colossus/storm at the same time. It improves both your macro and micro ability and your ability to keep up constant scouting and harassment.
|
I see this build (did something very similar at start of hots thinking about giving it a try again) somewhat simlar to phoenix openings in PvZ: You won´t kill an opponent who is in a decent level and can react properly but you can at least scout, contain him to some extent, get mapcontrol and rule out/discourage some buildorders while teching up to the appropriat counter to what you scouted.
Also with the nerf to hellbats the hellbat/marauder heavy timings in the midgame are weaker/delayed which gives you plenty of time for a transition into robo or templar play
|
No no no, don't misunderstand me Kracen lol, obviously the build makes you increase your skill level because you NEED to be good to use it. What I tried to say is that you won't be a good player just because you won few games using that build. That is exactly why my friend is using it, to be a better player overall and because it fits his playstyle, but it is not like you will do good with it against any high level player if your level is a lot lower overall.
So if you win a lot with the build and then start to lose against high level players, just keep practicing and become better, don't think "It only work against lower league players but not on Diamond or Masters" It was my bad when trying to expose that, sorry.
|
On August 10 2013 00:52 Sogetsu wrote: No no no, don't misunderstand me Kracen lol, obviously the build makes you increase your skill level because you NEED to be good to use it. What I tried to say is that you won't be a good player just because you won few games using that build. That is exactly why my friend is using it, to be a better player overall and because it fits his playstyle, but it is not like you will do good with it against any high level player if your level is a lot lower overall.
So if you win a lot with the build and then start to lose against high level players, just keep practicing and become better, don't think "It only work against lower league players but not on Diamond or Masters" It was my bad when trying to expose that, sorry.
So what you're saying is, its not like a gimicky build that you can abuse against people of higher leagues and still win, its a build which rewards high level play and encourages progression in skill?
|
Yes, exactly that
|
Tried it, works great against Plat/Diamond Terrans. After harassing, I use the Oracles as firesupport for my follow-up push... if the T doesn't focus them, they just MELT marines.
|
Did WhatAmI teach you this?
|
Been stinking it up in pvt lately, used to love the turtle style with a lil warp prism action. Does this transition to Phoenix/Colossus well? Gonna give this a shot regardless! Thx for build!
|
On October 03 2013 11:16 the.toninator wrote: Did WhatAmI teach you this? Check out the date of the first post and also the date of the original replay. This build is entirely (as far I am aware at least) my design
On October 03 2013 11:57 skorched wrote: Been stinking it up in pvt lately, used to love the turtle style with a lil warp prism action. Does this transition to Phoenix/Colossus well? Gonna give this a shot regardless! Thx for build! Personally I find this build is better suited to a Colossus/HT transition and with later Phoenix's simply due to the strength that a 2 base SCV pull (assuming you did minimal damage) can do against it. However if your damage was crippling to them then I find no issue with any transition as long as it is functional.
|
I tried it out just once; i did it reactively against scouting 14cc on akilon; (9 scout, weird i know); proxied a stargate and kileld around 5-8 scvs - thius is when i remembered this page and just tried it - worked out really well, i ran him over completely 4 oracles are really good against his 8 marines he tried to defend his mineral line with (turret was in construction
All in all I like the idea, gonna mess around a little bit
|
Tried it in the patch map, really awesome style, I could see this easily becoming standard if the patch goes through.
|
On October 05 2013 05:09 moskonia wrote: Tried it in the patch map, really awesome style, I could see this easily becoming standard if the patch goes through. When I saw the potential patch changes I knew this would become far stronger than it already is. It just seems I prepared the style way in advance.
|
On October 05 2013 05:32 Kracen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2013 05:09 moskonia wrote: Tried it in the patch map, really awesome style, I could see this easily becoming standard if the patch goes through. When I saw the potential patch changes I knew this would become far stronger than it already is. It just seems I prepared the style way in advance.
Haha yeah. I saw the patch notes and immediately though two things
1) This is going to be awesome and 2) oh crap, this means that turret in mineral line will become more standard. crap.
|
I'm gonna bump this back up purely due to the release of the new patch notes. People may want to see an Oracle build.
|
Can I ask you in which league you are?
|
On July 17 2013 06:00 Kracen wrote:
Lets start by stating that I am a Masters level Protoss player on the EU server, around 1.2k points, don't let that discourage you about my credibility though as I am returning from a long SC2 break and am yet to climb back up to my normal top 8 spot.
Literally the third line of the OP.
|
Can't believe I've missed it, I've read the full post. My bad. Sorry
|
Finally someone else who sees the potential! I've been doing 3-5 oracle builds against Terran and Zerg for months now. They're great units but they require some practice and skill in using properly. You have to be very energy efficient and baby sit micro them quite a bit, which is probably why it turns most players off from using them. Against Terran revelation is great in the mid game, it's very hard for them to attack you when you can always see their army. The attack is great for killling stray units and killing scvs and envision obviously counters cloak and burrow play.
Oracles FTW! Great guide.
|
I really hope this style becomes standard in PvT. So much more fun and interesting than more traditional styles, and with the new patch, it could be really effective in the hands of skilled players.
|
With the recent oracle buff, I'm going to do my best to master this build and annoy the hell out of terrans on ladder :D
|
This build still works great, had a lot of success with it in the lower leagues (gold/plat). Terrans seem to get very upset when 4 oracles show up in their base and start melting it at light speed.
|
If you have climbed to master and kept playing with this, does it still work?
Definitely after the new patch, with the widow mine buff? Seems like widow mines would be good vs this.
|
noo........
terran can A move ur base after defending their base for a while
|
On May 02 2014 23:54 Daimai wrote: If you have climbed to master and kept playing with this, does it still work?
Definitely after the new patch, with the widow mine buff? Seems like widow mines would be good vs this. I started doing this at Masters and still find great success with it. Widow Mines are good versus it but the buff had no change on it really as they one shotted Oracles before the patch anyway. As I detailed in the full original post, with enough practice you will easily work your way around any Mines to do damage.
On May 02 2014 23:59 lantz wrote: noo........
terran can A move ur base after defending their base for a while Out of the few hundred times I have done this build myself, this has happened a total of 0 times to be successful, in fact, whenever they did try that, it made it an even easier match.
|
Russian Federation216 Posts
I'm diamond terran and this build annihilates me, even if i safely defend with losing 2-3 SCVs to this **** i can't walk into protoss because of his planetary cannon, could someone provide replay how to beat this **** ********* damn im so raging...
|
United States15536 Posts
I think the most essential question here is why this build isn't called "Fouracles."
|
|
|
|