[TvP] Winning vs Protoss: Early Control into Mid-Game Domination
Tired of "OP" Protoss? Put on your big boy Hammer pants and start dominating Aiur. The build works well into the Master League and perhaps higher. Consistent 70% win-rate in Master League, and in lower leagues around 90%. The action begins with a quick marine/marauder/widow mine timing, transitions into wm/helloion drop, and finishes with a high supply mech timing push. The build is very safe, and counters almost all early Protoss aggression. As the game progresses, the main composition is Tank/BF Hellbat/Viking/Medivac/Ghost, although it can be changed to counter when necessary (ie; Blink Stalker = Marauders emphasis, air Protoss = Widow Mine/Viking emphasis). Hammer.1928 / hammerstarcraftii@gmail.com
A key aspect of this build is having a strong composition early, map control, and being able to compete with Protoss at every stage of a game. The initial push throws Protoss off their timings, puts on solid pressure, forces army unit chrono early instead of workers, and sometimes outright wins games. Another important aspect of the build is the ability to easily counter blink stalker play, and other one base Protoss tactics.
February 2015 Update! I've played several GM players with the build recently and have posted the games in the replay section.
December 2014 Update! I've adjusted the early opening to counter very early cheese play. There is now a wall at the main entrance, with 2 marines produced, before going into regular marauder/wm production and hitting the Protoss base at 6 minutes. This opening helps address msc/z/s pokes, proxy play, cannon play etc. I feel much more confident with this opening; that being said the original opening is still very strong, can be used on non 1v1 maps to greater effect, and works well if going gas first against random players.
10 Supply 12 Rax --> 2 marines then TL 13 Gas 15 Supply (wall) 17 OC 19 Factory
Important: Engineering Bay immediately if no expansion at opponents natural. Place turrets in both mineral lines and produce non-stop widow mine, marauder. If the Protoss has expanded, pressure and put down a third OC when funds are ready, and start Siege Tank production immediately.
Execution
First Attack: This timing should be very tight. 3 maruaders, 1 widow mine should be leaving your base at roughly 5:10, with a 2nd widow mine almost out. Don't forget concussive shells! Keep producing non-stop marauders and widow mines, waypoint them to the opponents natural (or just outside). Proceed to do as much damage as possible to Protoss economy. I prefer to attack with marauders at the front, and walk widow mines around and into the opponent's mineral line. Whether it is dt, blink, 4gate, 3gate robo, or oracle play, this is a very vulnerable timing for Protoss. Another common scenario is Protoss has expanded and quickly initiates a photon overcharge. Pull back immediately, do not attempt damage. Keep building marauders, and widow mines, regroup and push after 60 seconds. With good control you should be able to do significant damage. If you don't, you have still done damage in the sense that Protoss is producing units when they would prefer to be focusing on worker chrono, and ramping up their economy.
Drop Attacks: This a simple, but important and often effective drop, that can devastate Protoss worker lines. If it doesn't kill many workers outright, it will usually force spending on cannons, detection, and a reduction in mining time. Ideally the drop will consist of 4 widow mines, or hellbats/hellions. Another important part of the drop is scouting for Protoss tech, army composition, and expansion (3rd base) timings. Don't invest too much into drops, one medivac and appropriate control should be enough.
Main Attack: The third and main push should be at roughly 14-15 minutes. The entire goal of this build is to slow, and whittle down the Protoss economy and have a much higher supply when this engagement happens. Upgrades are not important early on. Let me repeat, upgrades are not important early on. The singular goal of this build is to max out supply and crush the opponent before late stages of the game (although the opener can be used to transition into macro style bio or mech build ). With the inclusion of ghost play, upgrade advantages that the Protoss may have will be far outweighed with tactical EMP use, and a much larger army supply. Research only Infernal Pre-Igniter (and maybe +1 attack if desired, but not at the cost of producing units).
Pushing Out: Establish third base with turret, a widow mine or two, and bunker with marauders if available. Scan at the front of your natural to eliminate observers, then proceed to the likely Protoss expansion. You can alternatively scan, or scout differently according to your preference. As you're pushing across the map, put down 2 additional factories, 1-2 starports (with the intention of producing cloaked banshees) and begin armory upgrades. Engagement is simple: push in, seige, EMP (immortal/ht/grouped units should be the focus), and micro the battle as needed.
Important notes
Build your early buildings in a way that provides vision. This will help reduce cannon rushes and proxy gateway builds.
Sweep the natural expansion area with the first marauder. This checks for proxy gateways and nosy probes.
After the first push, build 1- 3 bunkers depending on what you feel the opponent is doing. Starting a depot/bunker wall at natural front is a good idea, as well as an ebay as the the initial attack is hitting.
Do not be afraid to adjust composition based on what you scout – you will get an idea of the opponents composition and plan from the initial attack, and the widow mine/hb drop in the main base mineral line.
The main production buildings are 1 barracks w/TL, 1 factory w/TL, 2 factories w/RE, 1 starport w/RE. Although early game action may throw you off , make sure to always transition to these buildings for streamlined production.
On March 14 2014 14:34 MrBarryObama wrote: Really cool build!
But I've watched the first two games you posted, and in both games you bm your opponent.
Thanks, I like it! :D
Game one was just a GG at final battle, SC1 style. Sometimes I do that so people will GG and game over, rather than prolonging. The second game starts off with my GLHF, and him saying "duck you" :/ As far as I'm concerned once someone is rude like that, fair game. Generally I'm very polite, unless people are rude first. It's good to be reminded of good manners from time to time though, so I appreciate you saying that.
The guy sent the MScore and killed almost all my SCVs and the first widow mine was not able to do anything till the second pop and killed the MSc.How to deal with this????
On March 14 2014 17:04 DrDeep wrote: How do u deal with mothership core?
Can you please specify. For example do you mean the initiation of photon overcharge, MSC attack in general, or MSC at your base?
On March 14 2014 17:30 Dvriel wrote: Habitation Station
The guy sent the MScore and killed almost all my SCVs and the first widow mine was not able to do anything till the second pop and killed the MSc.How to deal with this????
Typically I will float 4-5 scv's on auto repair and lose a very small number of workers. In the meantime the mauraders and wm's do so considerable damage at the protoss base without MSC support and photon overcharge.
I have watched every single replay, and I think in all of the games Protoss plays greedy or chooses a build that get's countered by your build very easily, so that's nice. But I wouldn't play this build against a Protoss that plays safe.
Game 1 - 376737 Protoss sends out zealot to scout losing a unit, and has only 1 stalker and mothership core at home to defend, and already getting tech. Personally I don't like zealot scouting, since you are capable of scouting through either observer or oracle in time, while still being able to defend all of the Terran openings, cause of having a mothership core, a few stalkers and a sentry maybe. Also I don't prefer staying on a single stalker, but getting 3 stalkers while still being able to get TC, SG or RF.
Game 2 - 376736 Protoss goes for proxy oracle which counters your build pretty much, but because he stayed on a single stalker and wasn't even trying to defend his natural with his mothership core or stalker. He could have done some damage with his stalker, maybe losing it but that way taking time to active Photon, while being able to damage the marauders with the mother ship core. His Stargate was in range of his natural, so he could have made a void ray and send his oracle back home to defend and kill the widow mine.
Game 3 - 376735 In this game it's a bit the same as the first game. He goes immediatly for the stargate for oracle, staying on a single stalker and mothership core. This is also very greedy in my opinion.
Game 4 - 376734 You are moving out and the Protoss is very aggresive with his first stalker and mothership core. He sees the build coming but instead of making 2 more units he is getting a robo, 1 more gateway and a forge. It is possible for a Protoss to have 3 stalkers, sentry and mothership core, and since the Protoss is having his expand in-base. He could have done overcharge, a single forcefield and enough time to get a forge / robo to deal with the widow mine.
Game 5 - 376733 Nice build order win since is he getting TC and Expand, while not continueing stalker production, and even mismicroing his mothership core losing it to your widow mines. In this case i got not a lot to say since it was defenitely a build order win in my opinion, which is very nice for you ^_^
Game 6 - 376732 I stopped after seeing a robo being build after the stargate, that build makes no sense. you either go for all-in together with gates, or you expand out of the build while doing pressure. Don't get me wrong, it's good to play unorthodox sometimes and do builds like these, it's just that I don't his decision at all, and I would never do it. Commiting all resources into tech dies to both pressure and economy builds out of Terran, even against a safe opening.
Game 7 - 376731 Build order win, very nice. I mean Protosses do this opening quit often, so i don't have a lot to say about this.
What I think Don't get me wrong telling it was mainly the Protosses mistakes or greedyness. And on ladder a lot of people don't play safe, cause it's either boring or they rather all-in or play greedy to take games, instead of winning with true macro games.
I would like to see some replays against Protosses that play a safe macro game, and have to deal with the mid-game timing push you are doing (tank, hellbat, ghost/viking). Do you have such replays? It would be nice if I can see it.
Defenitely keep developing your build! You are doing a great job.
Hammer, have you played some series type play against Protoss practice partners? So that you can get an actual idea of how this works if the reactions are more optimized as opposed to someone having to fish for a blind answer on ladder?
For example, I know that the number of times I've tried mech TvP, it's sort of a dice roll whether or not the Protoss knows the correct reactions and compositions to make. If they are familiar with the general style and reactions, then I get crushed, however, if they flail blindly with similar play as they use to deal with bio, it's a stomp. I'd be curious to see you play some Bo3 or Bo5 scenarios with a similarly-ranked Protoss player using this playstyle to see how it works out in the longer term.
This build relies heavily on the protoss not scouting at any time in the game, making stupid decisions, or not transitioning properly. Basically. You need the protoss to be bad in order to win with this build.
There is a reason the select style 2 rax is dead. This is nothing but a gloried version of that build with weaker economy, less useful tech, and a huge weakness to everything a mothershipcore does.
There is absolutely no reason for a protoss to take any damage from either of your attack timings. Why? because your first unit comes out a minute later than normal. If the protoss can't figure out that you aren't making marines and have an early gas... It would be way easier and makes more sense to just pump out 3 marines while making the factory make the tech lab on the factory swap it to start making marauders and do the push a little later with 3 marines 2 marauders 2 mines and a medivac coming very soon.
Not only will the build look more normal to the protoss, because you can deny the probe and future scouts of your natural before you do the poke. Not only this, but if you get a widow mine shot off on the mothership core while pushing. with 3 marines you have a chance to kill it. Elevator play with the medivac that will be joining your units shortly will be much stronger.
Your second attack timing, the 4 mine drop is stupid. It's a completely unreliable harassment. Once you've shown mines a good protoss is going to get detection. Trust me. They can't mine their mineral lines if there are widow mines in them. You may slow the protoss down, but either way they were going to get a robo and/or forge before doing anything else anyways. Why? Because you have no units at home. All you are capable of is light harassment. You have 1 barracks 1 factory and 1 starport. Protoss isn't going to be aggressive against a 1-1-1...
If I'm a Terran and my strategy is to use 2 gimmicky timing attacks that at best will slightly disrupt the protoss mining time while waiting 15 minutes before attacking. I'm not going to win games in the match-up.
That being said the unit composition that you eventually attack with is strong, but how you get there is way sub-optimal.
This bothers me alot... so I'm going to say it again. There is no reason to skip marines while building the factory and tech lab on the factory. Yes your "timing" will be slightly slower, but you will have way more success at being annoying with the initial group of units. Not because you have more strong units, but because the protoss doesn't know that something strange is coming.
Don't focus on attacking the natural... Force out the photon overcharge if you have the ability to. Otherwise leave it alone. yes, maybe it's okay to try to sneak a widow-mine into the mineral line, but there is no way you should ever do reliable damage there if the rest of your units are there as well. Focus on elevator play. Use the mines to protect your position at the drop zone. Any unit you catch with concussive shell should die unless they commit to attacking your elevator. If they commit your widow mines will hit. Some games you will do minimal damage. But more than likely your marauder count with medivac support will start to snowball at the elevator, or the mine(s) you sneak into the mineral line at the natural will do significant damage.
On March 14 2014 18:32 Gianttt wrote: I have watched every single replay, and I think in all of the games Protoss plays greedy or chooses a build that get's countered by your build very easily, so that's nice. But I wouldn't play this build against a Protoss that plays safe..
I would like to see some replays against Protosses that play a safe macro game, and have to deal with the mid-game timing push you are doing (tank, hellbat, ghost/viking). Do you have such replays? It would be nice if I can see it.
Defenitely keep developing your build! You are doing a great job.
I'm Protoss by the way.
Hi Giant, thanks for your thoughtful and constructive feedback. I do have some replays where little or no damage is done to Protoss in the traditional sense. By that I mean, killing lots of unit or workers. The build however, still forces Protoss to build army, when they want to chrono workers, build static defence, when they would rather not. So Even in these situations, I seem to find myself well ahead in supply during major engagements. I will try to get those replays up later today, and you're welcome to message online any time. Cheers.
On March 14 2014 17:04 DrDeep wrote: Widow mines cant one shot Msc so you have to deal with msc harrass and msc attack. How do you overcome this?
Two widow mines can one shot a MSC :D With good control, MSC can be handled. When burrowing widow mines, you can select the target they hit by right clicking.
On March 15 2014 00:04 hellokitty[hk] wrote: What if protoss just goes standard blink stalker colossus (and doesn't sack units like in some of the replays)?
The only aspect of this that can be a little frustrating is being kited back to their base (if they are out on the map). When a Protoss is going blink stalker, I typically have a higher percentage of marauders with concussive in the composition, which helps. Stalker/colossus composition is generally no problem for the build.
On March 15 2014 00:36 Jazzman88 wrote: Hammer, have you played some series type play against Protoss practice partners? So that you can get an actual idea of how this works if the reactions are more optimized as opposed to someone having to fish for a blind answer on ladder?
For example, I know that the number of times I've tried mech TvP, it's sort of a dice roll whether or not the Protoss knows the correct reactions and compositions to make. If they are familiar with the general style and reactions, then I get crushed, however, if they flail blindly with similar play as they use to deal with bio, it's a stomp. I'd be curious to see you play some Bo3 or Bo5 scenarios with a similarly-ranked Protoss player using this playstyle to see how it works out in the longer term.
Great queston! I played several matches against a friend who is a very high Master League Protoss/Terran player. I won 3 out of 4 matches, only losing when I went with a bio composition. I have also faced a few players on ladder, multiple times in a row, and not dropped a match. I would be interested in playing a best of for fun against high level Toss, in order to test and improve aspects of the build.
On March 15 2014 00:47 HungrySC2 wrote: This build relies heavily on the protoss not scouting at any time in the game, making stupid decisions, or not transitioning properly. Basically. You need the protoss to be bad in order to win with this build.
I will have to politely disagree with your perspective, your opinions seem to be based on conjecture as opposed to real experience with the build. I'm also interested in knowing what race you main, and what league/points you currently have? For you to blanket statement that the Protoss "need to be bad" in order for this build to win, sounds somewhat naive. I am currently around 1600 points in the Master League and I have played Protoss players up to about 1800 points. That being said, this build has not been tested at the highest levels of play
You mention hitting at a later timing with a medivac, and marines and other units. Perhaps that's okay too. The timing and early composition of my build however is highly effective on several levels, and I don't believe a later attack on Protoss to be as good. You seem to contradict yourself; saying get marines to prevent early scouting and also that Protoss is not scouting what I am doing, therefore not properly reacting? Which one is it? I'll tell you. Protoss can scout as much as they want, until the first marauder comes. It has not made a difference in my experience. This also lends credibility to the build.
The fact is I am winning almost all my TvP matches at a reasonably high level of play. A very good player, with very high APM, would be able to execute it even better, so I imagine it should scale well.
Protoss can scout as much as they want, until the first marauder comes. It has not made a difference in my experience. This also lends credibility to the build.
If a protoss is able to keep a probe in your base till the 5 minute mark, see that there is no expansion and that you are building marauders and a factory and still lose the game. They are bad.
The idea that it's strong even when scouted is a valid point. If and only if the build itself is strong. In this case it's not. Damage is completely reliant upon the protoss reacting incorrectly. This would be fine with most builds, but this build delays economy and any tech (other than hellion/hellbat drops) that could cause any problems for the protoss until the 14-15 minute mark in the game.
The strength of the build is that it is unique and unusual in the current meta. That is why it makes sense to get atleast 1 marine out to deny scouting.
Protoss can scout as much as they want, until the first marauder comes. It has not made a difference in my experience. This also lends credibility to the build.
If a protoss is able to keep a probe in your base till the 5 minute mark, see that there is no expansion and that you are building marauders and a factory and still lose the game. They are bad.
The idea that it's strong even when scouted is a valid point. If and only if the build itself is strong. In this case it's not. Damage is completely reliant upon the protoss reacting incorrectly. This would be fine with most builds, but this build delays economy and any tech (other than hellion/hellbat drops) that could cause any problems for the protoss until the 14-15 minute mark in the game.
The strength of the build is that it is unique and unusual in the current meta. That is why it makes sense to get atleast 1 marine out to deny scouting.
You make some interesting points here. The first marauder however is finished at around the 4 minute mark, and should hold off further probe scouting. Until the build is used at the highest levels of play, the only substantive evidence is from my games, and I am winning an overwhelming number of matches utilizing the build.
Even if there is no direct damage done by the initial attack, and subsequent drop/s, there is indirect economic damage accomplished. Chrono must be used on early army units, expand/s delayed, static defence and detection needed. Protoss cannot happily go about producing a huge economy with low army count and no detection against this build. This, along with the current meta, and solid macro behind the initial push are the true strengths of the build. It is also highly effective against many common one base Protoss strategies.
vs Proxy Oracle, do you just die, or is it a 50-50, because of Widow-Mines? I'm mostly curious about the 20% of losses you've experienced with this build. What kills you most? Protoss that do stalker timings? Skytoss builds? What about the old 3-gate void-ray? Or is is more a matter of if the Protoss plays well, they win? I could picture immortal archon just destroying this outright in an even econ scenario.
Dependence on WM for anti-air also seems like it would be weak against DTs, or warp-prism harass. Do you play against that much?
As a protoss player, opening stargate I went ahead and tested out how I would respond:
Probe scout goes in, sees tech labbed rax and a factory going up. Probe goes back in or stays in to see a marauder come out. Okay, I see what's up. another gate + a forge go down in case of a widow mine drop. Cutting probes around 20'ish. Cannon goes down at my main mineral line just in case.
You show up at 6:16 with 3 marauders and 2 mines at the protoss natural. The oracle is leaving my base a few seconds before this. I bring it back to my base for the widow mines. Overcharge goes down and a front pylon if it isnt already there. Chrono out voidray and then 2 cannons at front. Couple zealots to help tank and with a second voidray coming and another overcharge 50 energy'ish away I just dont see how you're going to get anything done.
Maybe some better toss players than me have an even more optimal way of dealing with this but me personally, this is what I did.
On March 15 2014 04:27 dUTtrOACh wrote: vs Proxy Oracle, do you just die, or is it a 50-50, because of Widow-Mines? I'm mostly curious about the 20% of losses you've experienced with this build. What kills you most? Protoss that do stalker timings? Skytoss builds? What about the old 3-gate void-ray? Or is is more a matter of if the Protoss plays well, they win? I could picture immortal archon just destroying this outright in an even econ scenario.
Dependence on WM for anti-air also seems like it would be weak against DTs, or warp-prism harass. Do you play against that much?
Good questions. I have no problems against proxy oracle. The key is pulling the workers off the line asap, waypointing them somewhere and back to the minerals, and putting a widow mine in the path. Most Protoss will lose the Oracle to this. If not, get the mine in your mineral line, and proceed to damage Protoss at their base as much as possible. Most one base plays by Protoss do not do well as the initial push pressures at a weak timing for them - and provides a lot of information for what Protoss is doing. DT play can be tough, but there is a scan available around 6:30, and usually I'm already working on missile turrets, if there is no expansion/late expansion. Well executed proxy gateways can be hard (that's why I build to have good vision in my base). Try the build, you won't be disappointed, If you need help with it, feel free to add me online. Cheers.
On March 15 2014 04:51 shivver wrote: As a protoss player, opening stargate I went ahead and tested out how I would respond:
Probe scout goes in, sees tech labbed rax and a factory going up. Probe goes back in or stays in to see a marauder come out. Okay, I see what's up. another gate + a forge go down in case of a widow mine drop. Cutting probes around 20'ish. Cannon goes down at my main mineral line just in case.
You show up at 6:16 with 3 marauders and 2 mines at the protoss natural. The oracle is leaving my base a few seconds before this. I bring it back to my base for the widow mines. Overcharge goes down and a front pylon if it isnt already there. Chrono out voidray and then 2 cannons at front. Couple zealots to help tank and with a second voidray coming and another overcharge 50 energy'ish away I just dont see how you're going to get anything done.
Maybe some better toss players than me have an even more optimal way of dealing with this but me personally, this is what I did.
After your oracle does little or no damage, and I return to your natural after 60 seconds (photon overcharge finished), voidrays don't do well against 6-7 widow mines, and zealots not so well against marauders kiting with concussive shells. Also you're using chrono on army units, not economy, and cutting workers - just what I wanted :D
The opening can definitely be held, but not without slowing down Protoss economy, and forcing some form of detection.
On March 15 2014 04:51 shivver wrote: As a protoss player, opening stargate I went ahead and tested out how I would respond:
Probe scout goes in, sees tech labbed rax and a factory going up. Probe goes back in or stays in to see a marauder come out. Okay, I see what's up. another gate + a forge go down in case of a widow mine drop. Cutting probes around 20'ish. Cannon goes down at my main mineral line just in case.
You show up at 6:16 with 3 marauders and 2 mines at the protoss natural. The oracle is leaving my base a few seconds before this. I bring it back to my base for the widow mines. Overcharge goes down and a front pylon if it isnt already there. Chrono out voidray and then 2 cannons at front. Couple zealots to help tank and with a second voidray coming and another overcharge 50 energy'ish away I just dont see how you're going to get anything done.
Maybe some better toss players than me have an even more optimal way of dealing with this but me personally, this is what I did.
After your oracle does little or no damage, and I return to your natural after 60 seconds (photon overcharge finished), voidrays don't do well against 6-7 widow mines, and zealots not so well against marauders kiting with concussive shells. Also you're using chrono on army units, not economy, and cutting workers - just what I wanted :D
The opening can definitely be held, but not without slowing down Protoss economy, and forcing some form of detection.
The oracle is coming back for detection.. like I said.
It takes 40 seconds to build a mine. So you back off for 50 seconds, that gives you 2 extra mines, the one you had leaving the factory as you got to the natural (3) where you back off, and the one that just finished and has 10 seconds to walk across the map if I did the math right. 7? Come on..
Besides, it's not like I'm going to attack you with the voids. I'm just going to sit on top of my nexus/cannons and it's you that has to come in.
I went into unit tester and gave you 6 marauders and 6 mines vs 2 voids 2 cannons and 4 zlots. What are you going to do in this situation? Minus the msc, I didn't even include it or another warp in you lose this battle every single time. Are you going to charge into the cannons? It won't work because the mines can be target fired before they get close to the voids. Thinking about targeting the cannons with your marauders to kill the detection? I have an oracle too that I didn't include. You have to do damage it's not like you can just sit back so, again - what are you going to do :D
And I mean, if you're going to do this in a bo5, what's going to stop someone from opening robo every single game knowing this is coming? Even better, what's going to stop you from losing to a 3 gate immortal bust every single game?
On March 15 2014 04:51 shivver wrote: As a protoss player, opening stargate I went ahead and tested out how I would respond:
Probe scout goes in, sees tech labbed rax and a factory going up. Probe goes back in or stays in to see a marauder come out. Okay, I see what's up. another gate + a forge go down in case of a widow mine drop. Cutting probes around 20'ish. Cannon goes down at my main mineral line just in case.
You show up at 6:16 with 3 marauders and 2 mines at the protoss natural. The oracle is leaving my base a few seconds before this. I bring it back to my base for the widow mines. Overcharge goes down and a front pylon if it isnt already there. Chrono out voidray and then 2 cannons at front. Couple zealots to help tank and with a second voidray coming and another overcharge 50 energy'ish away I just dont see how you're going to get anything done.
Maybe some better toss players than me have an even more optimal way of dealing with this but me personally, this is what I did.
After your oracle does little or no damage, and I return to your natural after 60 seconds (photon overcharge finished), voidrays don't do well against 6-7 widow mines, and zealots not so well against marauders kiting with concussive shells. Also you're using chrono on army units, not economy, and cutting workers - just what I wanted :D
The opening can definitely be held, but not without slowing down Protoss economy, and forcing some form of detection.
The oracle is coming back for detection.. like I said.
It takes 40 seconds to build a mine. So you back off for 50 seconds, that gives you 2 extra mines, the one you had leaving the factory as you got to the natural (3) where you back off, and the one that just finished and has 10 seconds to walk across the map if I did the math right. 7? Come on..
Besides, it's not like I'm going to attack you with the voids. I'm just going to sit on top of my nexus/cannons and it's you that has to come in.
I went into unit tester and gave you 6 marauders and 6 mines vs 2 voids 2 cannons and 4 zlots. What are you going to do in this situation? Minus the msc, I didn't even include it or another warp in you lose this battle every single time. Are you going to charge into the cannons? It won't work because the mines can be target fired before they get close to the voids. Thinking about targeting the cannons with your marauders to kill the detection? I have an oracle too that I didn't include. You have to do damage it's not like you can just sit back so, again - what are you going to do :D
And I mean, if you're going to do this in a bo5, what's going to stop someone from opening robo every single game knowing this is coming? Even better, what's going to stop you from losing to a 3 gate immortal bust every single game?
I hear what you're saying about your defense, it sounds solid. You're still cutting workers, chroning army, and reducing early economy to hold though. The same goes for a robo opening. Against 3gate robo play, the push does significant damage, especially since this build usually typically has no detection early on.
On March 15 2014 05:35 Pirfiktshon wrote: Well I think now its time for a 1v1 vs Shivver and show us reps
Haha he seems like a nice guy, I'm down. Really just looking at tightening up the build, and getting constructive input where applicable
On March 15 2014 05:40 BuddhaMonk wrote: Do you have any replays of you using this build to defend against the 10gate/10gas Zealot/MSC/Stalker ~5min push?
I do have some, will have to go through some replays. This build definitely does well against it.
Good questions. I have no problems against proxy oracle. The key is pulling the workers off the line asap, waypointing them somewhere and back to the minerals, and putting a widow mine in the path. Most Protoss will lose the Oracle to this. If not, get the mine in your mineral line, and proceed to damage Protoss at their base as much as possible. Most one base plays by Protoss do not do well as the initial push pressures at a weak timing for them - and provides a lot of information for what Protoss is doing. DT play can be tough, but there is a scan available around 6:30, and usually I'm already working on missile turrets, if there is no expansion/late expansion. Well executed proxy gateways can be hard (that's why I build to have good vision in my base). Try the build, you won't be disappointed, If you need help with it, feel free to add me online. Cheers.
Thanks for the reply. I usually play more economical bio-viking styles, or just proxy 3 rax (usually a terrible decision). It's been a while since I've tried meching in this M/U, or even middle-ground bio-mech like this. I'll have to try this when I get a good couple of hours to really iron it out. The first few games will probably just reek of fail, lol.
From what I know of PvT this build is dangerous against unscouted stargate, and my theory is it just dies to 3gate stargate if Protoss doesn't make oracles. Later DT timings like warp-drop DT could also be a problem, but I'll definitely save this one as an aggro option, since I don't have many non-eco openers anymore. I could be horribly wrong on my theories. Compositions are one thing, but Protoss timings can be quite fragile, and Protoss can be pretty useless without detection.
Note the same exact posting. Not to mention same name. Hammersc and Hammer. It's 'hammertime' said over and over.
Soooo?
Also has a thread posted yesterday, linking to bnet forums -- the same exact account Hammer as the guy previously banned if further proof was needed. Just saying
On March 15 2014 07:18 dUTtrOACh wrote: Thanks for the reply. I usually play more economical bio-viking styles, or just proxy 3 rax (usually a terrible decision). It's been a while since I've tried meching in this M/U, or even middle-ground bio-mech like this. I'll have to try this when I get a good couple of hours to really iron it out. The first few games will probably just reek of fail, lol.
Good luck brotha!
On March 15 2014 07:36 Fus wrote: i bet this loses to a regular zealot stalker msc scouting poke pretty hard
On March 15 2014 00:04 hellokitty[hk] wrote: What if protoss just goes standard blink stalker colossus (and doesn't sack units like in some of the replays)?
This. I think with proper scouting and correct reactions this won't be a be all end all build against protoss. Sure I'd probably lose to it being greedy one game but after watching the replay I don't think it would work so good a second time. Very gimmicky IMO.
I just wanted to say that I'm the player you played on yeonsu. I lost because I went for 2 base blink and any type of widow mine drop or banshee is an auto loss so you pretty much blind countered me and it was hard to recover. I usually don't do coin flips but I was looking up build orders for high grandmasters on kr sever so I did it. As for what i think of the build, I do think its strong but not against 3 gate robot builds. It's looks good on paper vs star gate and robot forge builds but vs well executed 3 gate robot I fell it would crush this.
Both, widow mines wont be able to deal with any of the units. You can make a wall then the toss can't get in but will start killing it from the lowground. Toss will scout the factory with msc and make a robo after the expand and more units from 1 gate. Terran wont be able to move across map if the toss stays at his ramp, you need a mine to prevent shooting down the wall and also a mine to prevent msc from harassing the mineral line. You also need enough maradur to deal with msc zealot and 1-2 stalkers before you can push out.
Protoss will have nexus cannon, observers and a big economic advantage when the attack hits.
On March 15 2014 15:33 Rickyvalle21 wrote: I just wanted to say that I'm the player you played on yeonsu. I lost because I went for 2 base blink and any type of widow mine drop or banshee is an auto loss so you pretty much blind countered me and it was hard to recover. I usually don't do coin flips but I was looking up build orders for high grandmasters on kr sever so I did it. As for what i think of the build, I do think its strong but not against 3 gate robot builds. It's looks good on paper vs star gate and robot forge builds but vs well executed 3 gate robot I fell it would crush this.
I disagree, the timing of the Robo is too late; already pressuring at opponents base before the first immortal pops. Building CC behind aggression, as well as bunker wall, and early composition of marauder and wm is very strong against this.
when going 3 gate , robo "rain style" and scouting like most safe protoss i know and i do the robo is not for an immortal but an observer and the 3 gateways come online along with an observer at ~6 which is around when you hit if you leave your base a 5:15 roughly<- and this would be annoying vs concussion marauders but i doubt it would do alot of dmg due to the fact that overcharge would give an extra warp in after the first one and a ff on the ramp if you tried to suicide would keep you safe to secure that extra warp in and at this point it would be 8 units + msc to your 2-3 mines and 3-5 marauders depending if you rally forward in which case you wouldn't not do much dmg nor would i have to cut many probes letting us go into the mid game however i would have a lead in my opinion as my observers could easily scout follow ups and i would have close to 2 minutes to power freely, or more and if this follow up mine drop isn't effective other than scouting which i believe your even further behind i just cant see this being effective vs a "safe" protoss player which most ladder toss are far from. im a low gm protoss this is just my thoughts on your build sounds neat and very strong in the current meta especially if your build wasn't so reliant on protoss being caught off gaurd i would love it perhaps if you had scouting based tweaks t other build to adjust it could be extra strong, the only examples i can come with that are easy is you can cut corners on bunkers if you scout chrono's on probes and not gateway units to make the push happen faster, counting pylon/gas to know if you should invest in leaving your 2nd mine behind for possible oracle. im a fan of small scouting tweaks to any build so i might be biased.
- thanks Pirfiktshon if hammer or you would like to talk about im haffey.842 as i do play terran on kr server with alot of my time these days
I think killswitch has Hammered the nail on the head ( no Pun INtened.... ok it was intended) I think if you start making these adjustments your timing would not only be faster in some cases but also a LOT stronger... But i'm a believer and I'm going to try this build tbh... even though I'm doing pretty darn good with my current set up....
It's looks intriguing from the replays, you make valid points to as to why its good and you claim you have good win% in TvP. In times like these these sort of builds are more than welcome. Cheers!
On March 18 2014 03:14 KillSwitch81 wrote: when going 3 gate , robo "rain style" and scouting like most safe protoss i know and i do the robo is not for an immortal but an observer and the 3 gateways come online along with an observer at ~6 which is around when you hit if you leave your base a 5:15 roughly<- and this would be annoying vs concussion marauders but i doubt it would do alot of dmg due to the fact that overcharge would give an extra warp in after the first one and a ff on the ramp if you tried to suicide would keep you safe to secure that extra warp in and at this point it would be 8 units + msc to your 2-3 mines and 3-5 marauders depending if you rally forward in which case you wouldn't not do much dmg nor would i have to cut many probes letting us go into the mid game however i would have a lead in my opinion as my observers could easily scout follow ups and i would have close to 2 minutes to power freely, or more and if this follow up mine drop isn't effective other than scouting which i believe your even further behind i just cant see this being effective vs a "safe" protoss player which most ladder toss are far from. im a low gm protoss this is just my thoughts on your build sounds neat and very strong in the current meta especially if your build wasn't so reliant on protoss being caught off gaurd i would love it perhaps if you had scouting based tweaks t other build to adjust it could be extra strong, the only examples i can come with that are easy is you can cut corners on bunkers if you scout chrono's on probes and not gateway units to make the push happen faster, counting pylon/gas to know if you should invest in leaving your 2nd mine behind for possible oracle. im a fan of small scouting tweaks to any build so i might be biased.
Haffey, was good talking with you on battlenet today, thanks for going over those replays with me, I appreciate your input!
Well the build was fun at first but it's so easy to stop. All the guy has to do the moment he sees the factory is build a forge and 1-2 cannons at the entrance of his natural and poof he has 2 bases defended and you can't even harass AT ALL. He didn't have to pump units, he only spent 150 - 300 minerals on his cannons because the forge can be used right after anyway.
On March 19 2014 01:51 McGoku wrote: Well the build was fun at first but it's so easy to stop. All the guy has to do the moment he sees the factory is build a forge and 1-2 cannons at the entrance of his natural and poof he has 2 bases defended and you can't even harass AT ALL. He didn't have to pump units, he only spent 150 - 300 minerals on his cannons because the forge can be used right after anyway.
Interesting first post, but what do cannons at the entrance to the natural have to do with drop defense?
Phase 2 is a drop, and I'm curious how that went for you. By any chance, did all your units die to the 2 cannons?
On March 19 2014 01:51 McGoku wrote: Well the build was fun at first but it's so easy to stop. All the guy has to do the moment he sees the factory is build a forge and 1-2 cannons at the entrance of his natural and poof he has 2 bases defended and you can't even harass AT ALL. He didn't have to pump units, he only spent 150 - 300 minerals on his cannons because the forge can be used right after anyway.
I've played against this, I just walked past his natural into his main and did a lot of damage. There is always some damage to be done, whether economic or otherwise.
On March 19 2014 01:51 McGoku wrote: Well the build was fun at first but it's so easy to stop. All the guy has to do the moment he sees the factory is build a forge and 1-2 cannons at the entrance of his natural and poof he has 2 bases defended and you can't even harass AT ALL. He didn't have to pump units, he only spent 150 - 300 minerals on his cannons because the forge can be used right after anyway.
I've played against this, I just walked past his natural into his main and did a lot of damage. There is always some damage to be done, whether economic or otherwise.
Add Me: Squirtle.558(NA). We'll see how strong the build actually is . Maybe I can give you some improvements too.
On March 19 2014 01:51 McGoku wrote: Well the build was fun at first but it's so easy to stop. All the guy has to do the moment he sees the factory is build a forge and 1-2 cannons at the entrance of his natural and poof he has 2 bases defended and you can't even harass AT ALL. He didn't have to pump units, he only spent 150 - 300 minerals on his cannons because the forge can be used right after anyway.
Interesting first post, but what do cannons at the entrance to the natural have to do with drop defense?
Phase 2 is a drop, and I'm curious how that went for you. By any chance, did all your units die to the 2 cannons?
Ive already adressed this in my previous post, the difference is this guy skipped a warp in to get the cannons down first. I dont like that as much because you have to be more on top of your scouting. If its a mine drop and you didnt put that cannon in your main down, it can delay you If it turns out to be a mine drop. Ive had people try the runby although not with this build its still the same response. If you dont be greedy like me then you have a sentry and you forcefield the ramp. If you are greedy then you need to be aware this can happen. The solution is simple though, just move the pylon a little up and or over so the cannons cover the ramp better. Again though as others have stated, opening safe robo will put you ahead vs this. Even if you missplace the pylon and cannons a little you can still target the mines down.
Dang. I had this massive post written, vods and interviews included, but I closed my window and lost my precious wall of text. T_T
Oh, well. I like the early marauder pressure. ^^
But, I think I'll stick to medivac/marine/mine for whenever I open gas first in TvP. Gas first MMM drop is 2 stronk in TvP at the moment to be trying other builds. lol
On March 19 2014 01:51 McGoku wrote: Well the build was fun at first but it's so easy to stop. All the guy has to do the moment he sees the factory is build a forge and 1-2 cannons at the entrance of his natural and poof he has 2 bases defended and you can't even harass AT ALL. He didn't have to pump units, he only spent 150 - 300 minerals on his cannons because the forge can be used right after anyway.
I've played against this, I just walked past his natural into his main and did a lot of damage. There is always some damage to be done, whether economic or otherwise.
Add Me: Squirtle.558(NA). We'll see how strong the build actually is . Maybe I can give you some improvements too.
Added :D I'm always up for improvements and constructive feedback!
On March 19 2014 05:08 KingKayzz wrote: Dang. I had this massive post written, vods and interviews included, but I closed my window and lost my precious wall of text. T_T
Oh, well. I like the early marauder pressure. ^^
But, I think I'll stick to medivac/marine/mine for whenever I open gas first in TvP. Gas first MMM drop is 2 stronk in TvP at the moment to be trying other builds. lol
Sorry you lost your response.. hate that. What league are are you currently in? I really recommend trying the build. I just played several games against friend who is very high master toss/terran. He used the build on ladder and learned it well, and then played several matches against me. I won them all. It's very strong. Let me know if you have any questions, thoughts, or would like more replays. Cheers!
I've been wondering about this style of composition since the Hellbat came out. Nice to see some success coming out of it. I try my hardest with MMM+Ghost+Viking and my macro just never seems to be able to keep up in the late game, as zealots run-by, etc, widdle me down.
One question though, this is essentially a two base all-in right? Not grieving you if it is, just wondering, as you don't look to get upgrades, and you seem to have a disdain towards P at the late game, much as myself :D
Yes, we all have that arrogant side of us, just waiting to show someone else up, and when players throw out statements like " low masters at best, horrible opponents, etc , and follow it up with "will never work"" they are asking for you to come back and show them up.
Out of those people, their are multiple groups, I was in the group that dis owned you, and said it would never work, but as you prove time and time again it can work, and just like meching players in Pro league, prove time and time again it "can" work, I begin to really read more into your build, and maybe someday I might even use it on ladder.
Then their are the people, who will always say it will not work, and never give it a try, watch replays at most, and theory craft all the things protoss could of done, and for the most part fail to mention all the things you are actively doing during that time.
Maybe, your timing could be cleaner, but maybe the way you open provide a super economical way to go into mech with out dying, and even allowing for some agression, and each time I watch the replay, and think, okay if he blotches this he is dead, I realize that you still have something to fall back on, and unless you just get blind countered, like a proxy DT shrine after someone opens 3 gates with stalkers, and uses a proxy robo to sneak em into your base, while your preparing for some other tragedy , I really don't see you losing to "equally" skilled opponents, just because they meta gamed you.
Finally to top it off, an early scout into the protoss base, will reveal all of this, if you fear being meta gamed, it so easy to scout for it, who can possible not have a nexus up by 6 mins, and only 1/2 gateways in their base and expect a terran not to be aware, I can tell you, the opponents you have faced recently are surely aware of this, and their game play shows it to be true.
What you lack , is being able to compete with those who do open with any kind of corning-cutting defense, and end up out macroing you at the end, or killing you with a well planned timing, and to that I ask, are their games you lose when you felt that you played better, is your build order actually inneficent down deep inside, or do you whole heartly beleive you could of played it better, opening the same, and pulled off a win?
If you favor the second, which you really act as if you do, always asking for the best opponents you can find, and trying to push this build onto players better then you to try out, then please keep updating this post, and keep making your build better.
This build is solid, much more solid then the 3 rax of yesterday, but by no means is it complete, and after reading this tread, it is far from hitting a "dead end"
Good job, keep it up, will watch replays as you post them, and maybe someday think about meching vs protoss.
as of now.. friend of mine has me convinced , and I am starting to believe it myself mass viking/ghost is unbeatable, no way no how I could even begin to defend that statement, but that doesn't stop be from beginning to believe it.
But I prefer to get that 1 marine to chase out the probe first. And I go for full mech, with mines, tanks hellbats vikings, not continuing marauders past the initial push.
It's hilarious how so many Protoss don't bother to scout in the early game.
On March 14 2014 18:32 Gianttt wrote: I have watched every single replay, and I think in all of the games Protoss plays greedy or chooses a build that get's countered by your build very easily, so that's nice. But I wouldn't play this build against a Protoss that plays safe..
I would like to see some replays against Protosses that play a safe macro game, and have to deal with the mid-game timing push you are doing (tank, hellbat, ghost/viking). Do you have such replays? It would be nice if I can see it.
Defenitely keep developing your build! You are doing a great job.
I'm Protoss by the way.
Hi Giant, thanks for your thoughtful and constructive feedback. I do have some replays where little or no damage is done to Protoss in the traditional sense. By that I mean, killing lots of unit or workers. The build however, still forces Protoss to build army, when they want to chrono workers, build static defence, when they would rather not. So Even in these situations, I seem to find myself well ahead in supply during major engagements. I will try to get those replays up later today, and you're welcome to message online any time. Cheers.
Used it 3 times on ladder now. It worked 3 times in a row. Beside the first game where my opponent went for 4 gate it was as standart as it should be. I added my own little style into it, by teching +1 and get blue flame a little later. When the push hits it should be both done though. I think the early marauder and widow mines totally screw a protoss over because they are not used to it at all. I have to see how it works once a Protoss can hold the heavy push later on, because this build doesn't focuse on upgrades, while protoss players usually play greedy on upgrades.
But anyway, great build! I love it!
PS: Even if someone is bad mannered, it doesn't mean you have to bad manner him back.
ran into this for the first time today, i threw down a robo before nexus after seeing the marauder ( im going robo everytime I don't see a reaper now, it's just more useful against builds when they go gas imo.
threw down robo before nexus opening zlot/stalker/sentry. It got hairy but the obs gets out in time and the nexus survives with like a 100 hit points. Killed him with the counter attack with 2 immortals 4 sentries and 3 zlots on the initial warp ins.
since I'm not used to opening robo in tvt I was a little anxious about my defense here since I went 3 gate robo instead of 2 gates with a forge for cannons. I think next time the cannons are a better idea. Also if I could do it over again I would have went for the nexus, then the robo. You can easily have more than enough forcefields to keep him off the ramp. Im not sure if that's optimal but I couldn't get the overcharge down until late because I delayed the nexus. The observer got out fast enough to kill the mines without them getting anything, but at the same time it left the marauders free to chug away on the nexus.
Words can't express how much fun this build is, especially at the lower levels where everything is viable. It's really a treat- thanks Hammer! (5-0 with it in gold btw)
On March 20 2014 04:25 shivver wrote: ran into this for the first time today, i threw down a robo before nexus after seeing the marauder ( im going robo everytime I don't see a reaper now, it's just more useful against builds when they go gas imo.
threw down robo before nexus opening zlot/stalker/sentry. It got hairy but the obs gets out in time and the nexus survives with like a 100 hit points. Killed him with the counter attack with 2 immortals 4 sentries and 3 zlots on the initial warp ins.
since I'm not used to opening robo in tvt I was a little anxious about my defense here since I went 3 gate robo instead of 2 gates with a forge for cannons. I think next time the cannons are a better idea. Also if I could do it over again I would have went for the nexus, then the robo. You can easily have more than enough forcefields to keep him off the ramp. Im not sure if that's optimal but I couldn't get the overcharge down until late because I delayed the nexus. The observer got out fast enough to kill the mines without them getting anything, but at the same time it left the marauders free to chug away on the nexus.
Interesting. One base marauder play (2 rax) fell out of wol because the immortal counter attack was so strong that it usually killed terran. I wonder if the same counter attack could be used to kill this build. WM certainly spice up the action but 2 fast immortals with an obs seem like they should hit pretty hard.
On March 19 2014 06:49 Ctone23 wrote: I've been wondering about this style of composition since the Hellbat came out. Nice to see some success coming out of it. I try my hardest with MMM+Ghost+Viking and my macro just never seems to be able to keep up in the late game, as zealots run-by, etc, widdle me down.
One question though, this is essentially a two base all-in right? Not grieving you if it is, just wondering, as you don't look to get upgrades, and you seem to have a disdain towards P at the late game, much as myself :D
It is more of a two base style for sure. Although I will say, the opener itself is so strong, it can certainly allow for macro style, earlier 3rd CC type play. For me I like quicker games TvP. That Protoss late army..
On March 19 2014 09:09 Kiaph wrote: This build is solid, much more solid then the 3 rax of yesterday, but by no means is it complete, and after reading this tread, it is far from hitting a "dead end"
Good job, keep it up, will watch replays as you post them, and maybe someday think about meching vs protoss.
as of now.. friend of mine has me convinced , and I am starting to believe it myself mass viking/ghost is unbeatable, no way no how I could even begin to defend that statement, but that doesn't stop be from beginning to believe it.
Thanks! Glad you like it, and thanks for your lengthy response. Still needs some polishing indeed, but getting to a pretty good place.
On March 19 2014 10:04 Psychobabas wrote: This build has so far worked for me really well.
But I prefer to get that 1 marine to chase out the probe first. And I go for full mech, with mines, tanks hellbats vikings, not continuing marauders past the initial push.
It's hilarious how so many Protoss don't bother to scout in the early game.
Awesome. Why not a marauder a little later to get the probe It makes for a much stronger timing, and it doesn't really matter if the probe gets a scout as long as you have really tight timings. Glad it's working well for you!
@Giantt Sounds good. Message me anytime @Sertas Can't touch this.. build.. if you're Protoss.. well maybe 15% of the time :D
On March 19 2014 23:43 BoB_KiLLeR wrote: Used it 3 times on ladder now. It worked 3 times in a row. Beside the first game where my opponent went for 4 gate it was as standart as it should be. I added my own little style into it, by teching +1 and get blue flame a little later. When the push hits it should be both done though. I think the early marauder and widow mines totally screw a protoss over because they are not used to it at all. I have to see how it works once a Protoss can hold the heavy push later on, because this build doesn't focuse on upgrades, while protoss players usually play greedy on upgrades.
But anyway, great build! I love it!
Great to hear! The opening is definitely the most important part of the build. If you find variances that work better for your style later in the game have at er.
On March 20 2014 04:25 shivver wrote: ran into this for the first time today, i threw down a robo before nexus after seeing the marauder ( im going robo everytime I don't see a reaper now, it's just more useful against builds when they go gas imo.
threw down robo before nexus opening zlot/stalker/sentry. It got hairy but the obs gets out in time and the nexus survives with like a 100 hit points. Killed him with the counter attack with 2 immortals 4 sentries and 3 zlots on the initial warp ins.
since I'm not used to opening robo in tvt I was a little anxious about my defense here since I went 3 gate robo instead of 2 gates with a forge for cannons. I think next time the cannons are a better idea. Also if I could do it over again I would have went for the nexus, then the robo. You can easily have more than enough forcefields to keep him off the ramp. Im not sure if that's optimal but I couldn't get the overcharge down until late because I delayed the nexus. The observer got out fast enough to kill the mines without them getting anything, but at the same time it left the marauders free to chug away on the nexus.
Perhaps you played me on my smurf account? I would be interested in seeing a replay. Glad to hear the build is keeping your Protoss on your toes
On March 20 2014 10:24 DaveSprite wrote: Words can't express how much fun this build is, especially at the lower levels where everything is viable. It's really a treat- thanks Hammer! (5-0 with it in gold btw)
Sweet brother! Great to hear positive feedback like that. Work at keeping those timings tight, and you can use the build all the way up to Masters (at least).
I've also been toying around these kind of ideas but never had a safe enough opener. Might be good to try.
Since I also play 2v2 a lot (reached master there), I think a small deviation from this could make a nice expand build into 2 base all-in... Since imo in 2v2 the goal is to expand as soon as possible without dying, and push with the strongest possible force off 2 bases.
On March 15 2014 04:27 dUTtrOACh wrote: vs Proxy Oracle, do you just die, or is it a 50-50, because of Widow-Mines? I'm mostly curious about the 20% of losses you've experienced with this build. What kills you most? Protoss that do stalker timings? Skytoss builds? What about the old 3-gate void-ray? Or is is more a matter of if the Protoss plays well, they win? I could picture immortal archon just destroying this outright in an even econ scenario.
Dependence on WM for anti-air also seems like it would be weak against DTs, or warp-prism harass. Do you play against that much?
Thanks for the questions. Proxy Oracle is easy to defend as long as you control the mines at your base correctly and don't let them get picked off. Typically able to do very good damage at the Protoss base as they have little defence. I get some DT play and that can be tough, but if there is no base or late base I ALWAYS get ebay down asap. Warp prism is usually not a problem.
Tbh, if I lose, it's usually the result of my error, not the build. Sometimes it's control, or decision making, but the build is really tight. Feel free to message me on BN Hammer#1909 if you have any more quick questions. Cheers.
Tried it. Can really throw a toss of guard on a small map. I did the push with 2 mines to be sure I could 1-shot a mc, and killed an awfull lot of probes (but no mc). This is a great factory opener !
On March 22 2014 09:13 hfsrj wrote: Tried it. Can really throw a toss of guard on a small map. I did the push with 2 mines to be sure I could 1-shot a mc, and killed an awfull lot of probes (but no mc). This is a great factory opener !
Thanks for the feedback! Good luck with the build :D
I do not understand how you get the build to work. I have tried it several time without any wins. For instance, I have died to 1. Double proxy gateway in your natural. The zealots are in your main killing workers long before you get your maurader out. 2. Proxy oracle. If you use your first 2 widow mines to attack your SCVs are dead long before the third mine pops out. If you use the second widow mine to defend your mineral line instead of attacking with it, you survive the oracle but the attack is much weaker.
On March 23 2014 15:51 MockHamill wrote: I do not understand how you get the build to work. I have tried it several time without any wins. For instance, I have died to 1. Double proxy gateway in your natural. The zealots are in your main killing workers long before you get your maurader out. 2. Proxy oracle. If you use your first 2 widow mines to attack your SCVs are dead long before the third mine pops out. If you use the second widow mine to defend your mineral line instead of attacking with it, you survive the oracle but the attack is much weaker.
1. By placing your initial building strategically for vision, this kind of play is rarely an issue. Many times I have seen "scouts", that are far too early, but not prox/cannon cheese due to my vision. I'm assuming you didn't build this way? 2. Proxy oracle is not a problem as long as you pull your workers asap, and get the next widow mine on the path you are pulling the workers or safely in the mineral line. It's also important to keep pressuring at the Protoss base.
You are welcome to post the replays, and I can go over areas where you can improve. Cheers.
I've been kinda winging the build after the initial push, was wondering if you could help me refine it. I wind up winning the game but it felt pretty close at the time.
Hey, Hammer! I have been running this build for a bit and love it. I have mech'd a lot before but took a 3 base approach which worked decently. My question is, if the main attack only goes OK, in the sense that you did not do critical damage ( maybe kill a 3rd or had to retreat after killing his army due to warp ins ) what should I do. I have tried to exapnd but it seemed pointless since it would be pretty late and I would be behind on upgrades (I get +1 weapons but still should be behind a bit compared to the P). I was thinking maybe to attack again with scv pull and just commit to an all in.
@dUTrOACh Hammer could say this better but when I have ran this build if I suspect oracles I leave the first mine and rally the second one to my marauders. Sure it isn't as potent but he won't have as much ground army since he invested into oracles. Warp Prisms aren't bad since you can crank out vikings and are only on two base so there is less to harass. As for DT's if it is one base DT then you should have the ebay up already to make turrets. Not sure about 2 base DT's yet.
I recently dealt with a proxy 2 gate in my nat. First off, I built the first depot in a wall off position and my rax close to my CC, or away from the wall. I sent the worker that was building my first depot to P base to check gas for all in timings. What I did was abandon the build and wall off with depots and build marines. When I noticed the 2 gates I took guys off gas, then when I had the minerals to build the factory I built mines to help with the zealots. Since the P also built stalkers behind the zealot push, I went for a pretty cheesey 2 rax 1 fact 1 port stim push since I was pretty backed up into my main. It seems like the response should work for most gas first TvP openers if you scout a natural proxy 2 gate. Not sure if it works all the time but maybe an idea.
hi OP, ive been doing a similar build to yours last season for every TvP UNTIL I started facing protoss who are good enough(top masters) to completely shut down this build by either:
-sending mothership core straight away to terran's base. Since msc take two widow mine shots to kill, it can do quite a bit of harassment.
-proxy oracles and having good oracle control. Since one mine can't cover the entire mineral line, if protoss micros well and stays out of range, the oracle can do quite a bit of dmg.
Altho my build consisted of an earlier nat and a much earlier 2 base all in.
In your main post you said the MAIN ATTACK is at 14-15minutes. That feels like such a late time to overwhelm the protoss with superior army supply. If you can go mech and get ghost and viking for the main attack, then I think you are simply outplaying your opponent. Ofc, I'm also curious as to how this build will work vs top master/gm protosses because in my experience once the protoss has the game sense to do the stuff mentioned above, the build gets shutdown.
Hammer! You are the man I've used this build with crazy success I've been able to defend Blink stalker / 2 Gate proxy / proxy oracle amongst other things.
I love this build because it is the only build i know that forces toss to play honest and can delay his expansion long enough for you to put yours up and force an overcharge so you wind up being massively ahead in the mid game.... I'm currently like 8-2 with this build... the first loss was my first time trying it mostly because I was a little wrapped around my own thoughts on the flow on how it should go so I lost tempo and lost.
The other loss was because I didn't put an turret up at front because I thought I scouted enough and turns out proxy DT after Proxy oracle is OP
Which both of those were my failings but this build has serious potential and tbh I don't go into mech midgame I powerhouse my Bio because I can bio really good mid game
On March 24 2014 11:53 Sircoolguy wrote: Hey, Hammer! I have been running this build for a bit and love it. I have mech'd a lot before but took a 3 base approach which worked decently. My question is, if the main attack only goes OK, in the sense that you did not do critical damage ( maybe kill a 3rd or had to retreat after killing his army due to warp ins ) what should I do. I have tried to exapnd but it seemed pointless since it would be pretty late and I would be behind on upgrades (I get +1 weapons but still should be behind a bit compared to the P). I was thinking maybe to attack again with scv pull and just commit to an all in.
@dUTrOACh Hammer could say this better but when I have ran this build if I suspect oracles I leave the first mine and rally the second one to my marauders. Sure it isn't as potent but he won't have as much ground army since he invested into oracles. Warp Prisms aren't bad since you can crank out vikings and are only on two base so there is less to harass. As for DT's if it is one base DT then you should have the ebay up already to make turrets. Not sure about 2 base DT's yet.
On March 26 2014 22:10 Pirfiktshon wrote: Hammer! You are the man I've used this build with crazy success I've been able to defend Blink stalker / 2 Gate proxy / proxy oracle amongst other things.
I love this build because it is the only build i know that forces toss to play honest and can delay his expansion long enough for you to put yours up and force an overcharge so you wind up being massively ahead in the mid game.... I'm currently like 8-2 with this build... the first loss was my first time trying it mostly because I was a little wrapped around my own thoughts on the flow on how it should go so I lost tempo and lost.
The other loss was because I didn't put an turret up at front because I thought I scouted enough and turns out proxy DT after Proxy oracle is OP
Which both of those were my failings but this build has serious potential and tbh I don't go into mech midgame I powerhouse my Bio because I can bio really good mid game
Awesome guys, really nice to hear. I'm still having great success with the build, getting close to 2000 points in the Master League.
Thank you so much for posting this build So fun to do, and perform! I copy you pretty much down to the tee, initial depot placements and turrets later for denying observers in main.
I think I'm 9-3 with the build. One time I died to proxy oracle, but imho it's shut down pretty hard if you scout it. I'm going to rally my 2nd mine to the mineral line next time I scout proxy oracle. As long as you kite, you should still be able to do some light harassment with your 1 mine and 2/3 marauders until the 3rd mine joins in to be able to kill the MSC.
The second time I died the protoss countered me basically the same way SatedSC2 would. He built a cannon at the top of his ramp and forcefielded 2/4 marauders out when I tried to push up. Would you save your mines for the main push if you saw this response? If he has cannons up to defend the earlypush, the 12 min mine drop shouldn't be attempted, right?
The third time I died to a 1-base immortalbust. @~9 minutes he had 2 immortals, some sentries and a buncha stalkers. What would you do if you had scouted this sort of push? At most I guess you would have 4 marauders, some mines and a tank. Seemed reeeally hard to hold, I guess I would have to pull all my scvs or abandon the natural or something.
On March 15 2014 04:27 dUTtrOACh wrote: vs Proxy Oracle, do you just die, or is it a 50-50, because of Widow-Mines? I'm mostly curious about the 20% of losses you've experienced with this build. What kills you most? Protoss that do stalker timings? Skytoss builds? What about the old 3-gate void-ray? Or is is more a matter of if the Protoss plays well, they win? I could picture immortal archon just destroying this outright in an even econ scenario.
Dependence on WM for anti-air also seems like it would be weak against DTs, or warp-prism harass. Do you play against that much?
Good questions. I have no problems against proxy oracle. The key is pulling the workers off the line asap, waypointing them somewhere and back to the minerals, and putting a widow mine in the path. Most Protoss will lose the Oracle to this. If not, get the mine in your mineral line, and proceed to damage Protoss at their base as much as possible. Most one base plays by Protoss do not do well as the initial push pressures at a weak timing for them - and provides a lot of information for what Protoss is doing. DT play can be tough, but there is a scan available around 6:30, and usually I'm already working on missile turrets, if there is no expansion/late expansion. Well executed proxy gateways can be hard (that's why I build to have good vision in my base). Try the build, you won't be disappointed, If you need help with it, feel free to add me online. Cheers.
Any oracle defense that is solely based on mines is doomed versus good players.
What composition do you aim at if Toss goes for a sky build (void rays mainly)? Do you abandon the mech transition, going for a standard m&m composition with marines, or stick with mech, using more mines and vikings, and maybe even thor?
Hey Hammer, it's Incubus. I'd figure I'd give this a shot, I watched replays and I have a pretty basic question. How do you deal with the regular Zealot/Stalker/M-Core expand build? I've been hitting it a lot lately (not with your build yet) and it seems that if you skip an early Marine with your build won't the Zealot just walk up and start killing SCV's before the Marauder is out? I guess it depends on if you wall or not, but in theory it just seems like that standard Protoss build can outright win a game due to your first unit being so delayed and not being able to shoot up at the Mother-Ship Core. Any half brained Protoss won't let there M-Core die to a Widow Mine (will it even die in one shot).
Just curious if you've faced this and how you've delt with it.
On March 28 2014 00:38 Malhavoc wrote: What composition do you aim at if Toss goes for a sky build (void rays mainly)? Do you abandon the mech transition, going for a standard m&m composition with marines, or stick with mech, using more mines and vikings, and maybe even thor?
Typically I switch to Thors, instead of Tanks, and add a Starport. Alternatively you can play a macro style long game on scouting air production.
Trying to tweak the build but my knowledge on the build is currently limited :D
For example, I notice how great the timing mid game is, but these replays show case 20+ probe kills and/or Nexus snipes.
Let see what happens if you only say you only kill units, and under 10 probes.. for research purposes.. for improvement :D
I need the following.
Nexus first w/ probe scout, builds forge + cannon at front upon scouting.
Gateway expand, on alterzim, scouts and builds sentry to hold ramp.
Well executed 1 base blink >> protoss denies going up his ramp until he moves out.
Well executed 2 base blink >> 6/7 gate (depending on time/map) after any quick expand with forge/cannon or sentry/FF to hold your aggression..
Well executed fake 2 base blink >> 3/4 gate same as above.
Normal macro game after holding on Alterzim w/ sentry , opening 2-3 gateways expand(any map), opening any nexus/forge combo(any map). -Would like one with : -archon//HT transition, though I know it should be weak to your build, I fear for a strong Chargelot/Archon timing. -standard robo timing (or as close to standard as defending versus this build allows) -Blink into Collosi ( can be given as the fake blink build as well ) -Blink into HT ( can be given as the fake blink build as well ) -more examples of Non standard protoss play (taking robo + twilight , before getting colossi/templar) - oracle/blink/etc
Well, I am sure I will face these as I ladder, but your mechanics are better than mine. I wan't to use that to study these replays and find ways to play to the map, and play to the strength of the build, while not over committing to aggression, and keeping up in macro, with potential of getting ahead, with bare minimum aggression..
The benefit, for wasting all your time saving these replays.. win or loss, is a helping hand in refining your build,
I decided to make this my next project after finally giving up on reaper FE. After many losses to early aggression. Even scouting the aggression, I found myself forced into super defensive play, and far behind late game, or dead before I could think about getting to the late game.
I posted a build, long ago, after weeks of refining, prior to widow-mine nerf, that uses quick barracks and widowmines to be aggressive, and expands behind it, however the expand is later than yours, and the protoss defense required for both is nearly identical. With that being said, I want to try to refine your build because it offers a stronger mid game if defended against properly than my own, as well as more possible variations.
Like you, I am pretty good at refining timings/macro so hopefully I will be able to strengthen your build, once I have better understanding of how it plays out against multiple scenarios . :D
Initial thoughts after watching the current replays.
Make sure to pay attention to your saturation, you tend to slip on SCV production, or build way to many, for 2 bases. This delays your third/upgrades more than anything else in your build, if you cut at ~50-55 workers every game, possible before 12 minutes, that means by 13 minutes you have the money for your third, every game.
You also rely on scans to fight DT , in the future, when you scout a darkshrine, if you haven't started this already, take another orbital, since moving out , most of the time, would be risky, prepare for the future. Ravens are nice, but you and I probably both agree until you have at least 0-2/2-0(your preference) mech, the money is better spent on ghost/mech/upgrades.
After a couple few hours of working with the build.
First, taking the gas with depot building SCV is optimal, then at 13 supply rally towards gas geyser, build barracks, and make another scv.. this will time out perfectly with the build, and provides the most amount of mineral income.
Secondly, if you have used this build before against an opponent, and know he will meta game you, the extra minerals allow for a third to go down at 5:15 with a slight delay (5-10 seconds at most) on the 4rth mara and 3rd widowmine.
From here you now have the option to play defensively, or aggressively, if defensive, it took me awhile to work a way to play this defensively using so much gas up at the start, but if you rely on 5-6 widowmines and 6-7 mara , defending against most 2 base aggression is very possible while getting tanks/helbat/medivac/ emergency bunkers.
Take the gas at the natural as fast as possible is probably key to this build, if you want to expand just wait an extra 30-60 seconds before taking the gas, but make sure you know your opponent has intentions to macro, otherwise you leave yourself with whopping 60-90second window of no tanks/hellbat support, and that can be game ending.
Finally, my macro variation needs lots of improvement, so more replays from you would really help, and try to make sure your scv/building timings are refined as possible, this way I have more room to work with :D ,,,
Best example would be like you run into a sentry(ramp) or cannon at the front, in response just skip bunkers and go for a 8:30 third, to support this only get 1 extra factory till your economy starts to roll, if they expanded and committed to defenses, this should be very viable.. have to test in a game, if they didn't commit to defense, your medivac , can act as an elevator for mara/mines buying plenty of time for safety... testing needed.
http://drop.sc/377878 VS AI .. if you can check this out, i know it sloppy, was trying to type while do it lol, but yeah for general purposes, because I *THINK* this is a possible route to take against defensive toss, that your build is actually pretty safe.
I am sure you have already begun working with things like this, but please post more replays :D
I am not a protoss, so there may be something crucial that I may be ignorant about, in terms of how much I can / cannot get away with macro wise, and I am afraid these diamond protoss are not going to reveal that knowledge to me
i go 1/1 expand into bio but i go 3 marines then tech lab attack with 3 marines 2 widow mines and 2 marauders. then drop 2nd rax starport reactor on factory and go into 2 rax with drops get dbl eng bay 3 more rax then take third.
Simply put, unless you manage to deal massive damage against the Protoss with either the mid-game Mine drop or the initial Marauder/Mine pressure, there is absolutely no way this build will work against a Protoss player ...
I can agree with this to a certain extent, however good scouting by terran, that is now possible with a scan from the third orbital, or active mara/mine harass should still let the terran know he is going to be outproduced.
From here, would it not be possible to secure around 6 widowmines, and rush for quicker ghost staying on 2 factories ?
Now, I don't want to play the theory craft game, not because I don't believe you, but because your opponents are better than mine own. So there is no way to know if my argument.. that may seem valid "theory" wise, is not actually just bias based off my lack luster competition.
However, I do hope that terrans are good enough that with smart harass that this build can be used as a way to scout, and safely secure a third base. With that in mind, I have to ask you is your build as viable in game as it is on paper?
We know that strong timing attacks, against any terran build will slow down the third and/or kill the terran if they are out of position or lack proper defense.
That being said, if a terran plays a pro-active macro style, using a quick 2nd medivac to break weak points in defense, or multi-prong harass, the build it self easily has 180+ supply at 14:30 .. even with my poor macro, so even if the terran was forced to get extra bunkers, could you realistically transition into something that could stop him if you failed to kill the terran, third or no third.
I say third or not, because I have learned that the 2 factories with constant macro actually produce hammer on 2 bases, though I am playing against AI, and he is slightly delayed from his multitasking, I don't want what I think could be happening to me, happen to you. We both may be a little bit over bias here. There are multiple replays where hammer begins to float around 8-9 minutes, and isn't able to really dispose of it till after ghost production, however because ghost production is dependent on gas, I found that getting the CC may not actually delay much of anything at all, and may even be better for the build in terms of scouting possibilities, so lets move on.
Will this attack put you at risk of dying to / or getting super behind to medivac(s) drop harass?
Remember terran is doing a 1-1-1 and if he scouts the cannon(s) his/her starport is going to be way faster than in the replays we are using as a reference, as well as quicker gas timings all around, meaning more aggression possibilities, yes his 3rd/4rth gas will be delayed, to get the CC , but that's a 400 mineral widow that you have to hit, and you have to do so taking almost no damage, or just by out playing your opponent in terms of macro in the case you do take minor damage.
-Edit-
Also would active hellion play, with mara / mine support not crush someone trying to get those gate ways running, even if you get them up.. hellions will kite all day, in the end forcing more static defense / delaying your push.
-This is not standard, but could be a response to scouting someone rushing templar archives/mass gateways?
The Attack itself
If you do hit this timing, we can both agree like all timings, a terran under prepared, or out of position will surely be forced into a base race / game ending scenario, unless the protoss is just being that severely out played.
With a possible quicker medivac(or two), and an extra scan (or two) now available, would a terran not be able to fortify his third / natural on most maps with 3 bunkers, 5-6 widowmines, a couple tanks and mara in the bunkers. Leaving his hellbats free to move around the base to defend zealot warp ins, if need be. Keep in mind, a couple tanks will soon turn into a large number, and almost every game terran has 4 vikings at 11:30, if they start a reactor after medivac( or two if macro ), these can be cut if its apparent no widowmines are coming out, leaving a whopping 600/300 extra resources at the terran's disposal for defensive purposes. ( or aggressive if something screams "attack me now" )
Now, I am not saying you can't hit before this.. key defensive moment, but I am asking, can you do so with out leaving yourself wide open to a terran with active medivacs?
And right now I believe the answer is yes/no .. I think it would come down to the better player, making things happen.
But, as stated previously .. I could be.. just overly bias towards this build.. after all: I spent around 5 hours trying to maximize its effectiveness in the late game.
A bit of weakness
I updated to agree with you that the build may have it's weaknesses that may completely wipe it off the face on the planet, or even be obvious enough to keep professional level players from even trying to use the build.
Multiple tech paths. Being unable to scout all tech paths, with this build leaves you .. blind countering your opponent early on with defensive positioning, it may be possible to hide tech and use it with scouted tech in order to break the terran early if you can manage to minimize losses at home.
My current dilemma is robo in main base, proxy twilight/shrine. Where as it should be easy to scout something is missing, its hard to make a safe judgement on what is missing, with out actually scouting it. Once DT get into my main base, via warp prism, they are able to out run my slow mech army and stay alive doing free damage until I can get turrets in the right position.
The simple solution, put 2 Mara/2 Helbat in the main and hold off on placing turrets / save a scan until you know for sure, this cost you a scan and doesn't leave you dead to any all ins if you was wrong and just went for adding 3-4 turrets first.
However it does delay your build, and if it was a proxy nexus across the map, holding onto the mule, and spreading your units out may have been all your opponent needed to barely hold on during your 14 min push, or if proxy gateways -> for hitting a crucial timing attack, both options can then snow ball into your base with zealot/archon/immortal. ( or w/e else that may work ) ..
So yeah that is my current Dilemma.. but there could be others.. that have not been revealed.
But, medivacs + mara kill the nexus/gateways.. so if I scout it early.. can fix the dilemma, but somehow I don't find it when I do scout, and most of the time.. I don't think to scout till it is to late (cannons / warp in)
However.. I will go out on a limb.. and say that dilemma is not just mech related.. maybe more prevalent .. but exist in almost any given PvT where the Protoss proxies structures.
Doom drops can save games against Protoss timing-attacks, but Mech doesn't really do drop play very well when it comes to killing buildings. It can go for workers with Hellbats/Mines/Hellions against a Protoss who is weak on defending drops, but you're not going to be able to base-race with those units. Warp-ins will clean them up before they manage to kill a single Gateway. You could send all your Bio units to be dropped, but then what's protecting your Mech units back home? I don't really think that this build is setup for this kind of drop play because you really don't have the right unit composition for it to work.
Overall after reading all your post I do agree with you.
Currently after the third widowmine I start a reactor, and a 2nd gas.
So far this has not effected my widowmine drop at all.. just means I wont have a 4rth widow-mine for the agression a the start of the game.. and the 3rd widowmine is always close enough to defend proxy oracles.
No protoss is yet to have a cannon or deny the nexus snipe... but.. I eagerly wait for a chance to get to try making some hellions against a protoss who does :D
Your probably right.. till probably get shut down with ease but if I don't try it .. I will never know :D
Thanks for the reply... at least I have a decent idea at what I am going to try against protoss who defends well.. and if that fails.. well I guess its time to move on ( or try a couple more times? :D )
I tweaked with it.. and even manage to beat some high diamonds.
However.. over all it sucks.
Sorry hammer.
No matter what I did, or how i did it, I could not out macro cronoboost, so if I DID not do damage it was GG
The more I played with it the more I learned Protoss just don't take damage as easy as they do in your replays.. something tells me this is a troll post, and you had to play a lot of games just to get the 6-7 wins you have.
The first thing is oracles.. at first easy.. but logner I played the more protss begin just sitting the oracles in my mineral lines waiting for the widowmine to pop and dying me mining.. till I had 2 widowmines.
From there they would use the photon over charge at hom.. and stay on 1 base and bring 2nd oracle home and shgut down my agression completely , while denying me mining for quite some time... it was GG.
Blink... Great build order to counter blink. 100% only thing I liked about it.
Standard opening, if they porotss is smart they will pull all their workers and attack you, pulling their probes back as you begin to burry the mines, with a little bit of micro, they can hold and then the nexus cannon at the natural ends the game.
The widow mine drop has a small chance of doing damage, but I find unless I did damage earlier the risk to drop the widowmines almost never pays off, as in.. a hullicinated pheonix scouts my widowmines have moved.. and I find 4-5 gateway worth of production in my face.
Looks like its back to standard 1 rax FE and pray for no oracle... sad to say your build order.. just takes.. a bit of "Common sense" to handle.
Where as your push is strong.. and really gave me something to strive for.. I just cant get to the 14 min mark with your army ( unless I do damage early on) against a smart protoss. So I guess back to my Marine widowmine all in.. at least.. it works against everything with good marine micro. :D
I'd go for first mine immediately in mineral line and push without it if i'm not 100% sure there will be no oracles. Sure it delays the agression, but if they're on one base like you said and we're planning to expand it's not a big deal.
For me the opener itself is great because it gives you blind counters for blink plays AND oracles which are the most common Toss shenanigans. Then, if they DO play standard, well, you have delayed economy but good map control (mines everywhere) and can choose to play whatever you want from this point, bio or mech.(maybe excluding 3rd base greediness)
On April 06 2014 15:32 Kiaph wrote: Well.. Finally guess I will say it..
The build sucks.
I tweaked with it.. and even manage to beat some high diamonds.
However.. over all it sucks.
Sorry hammer.
You're a platinum player with 700 games played this season. I suspect this build not working for you, is more about your ability to execute it properly, and manage different Protoss responses. I am having solid success with it in high Master League, and have received positive feedback from several GM players.
On April 07 2014 17:53 SatedSC2 wrote: This isn't a good/stable opening because it's very easy to deflect the initial pressure and then crush through the timing-attack once you know the proper response. I have nothing against cheese builds, and this will definitely work very well against people who haven't seen it before or who don't manage to scout that it's coming, but acting as if this is a good/stable opening is disingenuous.
Are you writing this based on experience or theory? I have used this build many times, and as previously mentioned, even if direct damage is not accomplished, indirect damage to Protoss economy is. Protoss needs to use chrono on army, engage at a time they would rather be focusing on macro, and so on. My numbers speak for themselves, your feedback is just conjecture.
probably a better response to that is going voids like I said earlier and going up to like 3 and then taking your oracle and moving across the map to his base. You got detection so
Not that there's anything wrong with charge/archon you're talking about. I just don't like charging into hellbats and mines myself. The fact that he has a very serious AA issue is what I'm liking.
On April 06 2014 15:32 Kiaph wrote: Well.. Finally guess I will say it..
The build sucks.
I tweaked with it.. and even manage to beat some high diamonds.
However.. over all it sucks.
Sorry hammer.
You're a platinum player with 700 games played this season. I suspect this build not working for you, is more about your ability to execute it properly, and manage different Protoss responses. I am having solid success with it in high Master League, and have received positive feedback from several GM players.
Nice.
Your point is valid.
Your build is strong
Your tactic is flawed.
A protoss player, in almost any given league is capable of basic micro. With basic micro, a protoss who scouts this factory, if he or she should opt to take a second gas, before / right after expanding and skip the zealot knowing it will be useless(Most skip this zealot anyways) they will find themselfs in prime position to defend against your push. The Gas will be used in order of stalker, mothershipcore, robotics facility, stalker, observer.
Rally 5 Probes to your natural, that finished before the push arives, When the terran attacks pull 3-4 probes and attack into the terran with 2 stalkers 3-4 probes and a mothership core.
The terran will attempt to kill the protoss' mothershipcore , the protoss can pull back the MSC and lure the mines furtherforward, these mines are being focuse fired, if the terran doesnt burry right away, he loses 1 widowmine.
THe protoss kills 1 widowmine.. then a moves his stalkers MSC, and the remaining probes in his natural, before the widowmines can shoot again the observer will pop out.
The protoss can start an imortal right away instead of the widowmines, this will also pop before the widowmines get to shoot again, and completely clean up your army, buying protoss the time he/she needs to get an observer.
the Terran's natural is late, the protoss used a total of 2 chronoboost on a robo to hold your attack, and can go back to constant probe production and play the game with a very huge lead.
This is not just "some theoretical situation". This happens every time the protoss scouts, builds a quick robo, and micro's his units/probes propperly.
And IF they open cannons.. let hope they don't, because there is always a canon in the mineral lines.. and direct hits from widowmines.. I have found my self very far behind, no damage early on, protoss (should) take a third at 7-8 minutes into the game, and there is nothing the terran can do to deny it, if you manage to force a early photon overcharge against cannons.. maybe you can deny the third.. but realistally the protoss with have 2 overcharges, with a third overchage with in 20 seconds of the 2nd one ending, making the third impossible to crack with out critical army mass loss.
IF the protoss stays on 2 bases.. and i land widowmines.. sure I win.. yeah bunkers at my front... they all in.. its GG .. they dont all in.. its GG .. cause i reck their eco .. but if they took a early third.. this build screams defeat.
How many games have I played with this build? Countless peepmode games against all level of players. Mimimum of 20 ladder games. minimum of 20 unranked games. Mimumum of 50 vs AI opponent where I wasted hours ( 3 days striaght I spent 3-5 hours) refining my build / following mech timing.
Results..
Easy wins against non robo play Easy wins against robo play with protoss not microing MSC back. Easy wins against stargate play (proxy or not) ( with 1 exception )
Defeat against stargate (the exception )play where protoss leaves first oracle above mineral line and sends second home to defend. Defeat against any early robo play where protoss doesn't suicide his first few units for free into widowmines. Defeat against all builds with a canon at the front. Defeat against 4 gate. ( Very close games.. but No wins yet.. the proxy warp in of zealots and 1 stalker almost always kills me and if it doesnt kill me buys protoss time to get cannons / robo .. even if i kill probes.. I wind up far far behind.
"don't go up ramp" approach .. is possible but well timed 4 gates actually hit before my main army gets home.
I almost didn't want to post.. because know I am just bumping your thread.
But, the build is strong.. and if I am desprate for cheese ... I use your build, and get easy wins probably 1/3 of the time, I am uncertain how you are able to keep winning over 50% of the time .. at first the build won me 4-5 games in a row.. but the better players i play the less often i win.
I would love to see some recent replays of you "crushing" masterportoss who don't let you get an "easy win" .. *conditions stated above.
On April 10 2014 15:38 Kiaph wrote: How many games have I played with this build? Countless peepmode games against all level of players. Mimimum of 20 ladder games. minimum of 20 unranked games. Mimumum of 50 vs AI opponent where I wasted hours ( 3 days striaght I spent 3-5 hours) refining my build / following mech timing.
3 variatons of the same word xD
For me it seems there is no really viable mech build right now (more Korean Pros would use it if there was one). Anyways it's always nice to have a single build which can surprise your opponents in a Best of X series.
But, the build is strong.. and if I am desprate for cheese ... I use your build, and get easy wins probably 1/3 of the time, I am uncertain how you are able to keep winning over 50% of the time .. at first the build won me 4-5 games in a row.. but the better players i play the less often i win.
I would love to see some recent replays of you "crushing" masterportoss who don't let you get an "easy win" .. *conditions stated above.
You fail to realize that ladder is best of 1. Most protoss nowadays will go for the 2 base blink all in(like myself on yeonsu vs hammer),proxy Oracle, or some other type of cheesy shannenegan. Not everybody plays completely safe and knows the appropriate response to this build because it's their first time playing against it. It's the same scenario as nanis 1 gate expo into 4 gate he introduced in 2012 vs drg in gsl. As a result hammer will win a majority of his wins. If Hammer where to play duckdeok and duckdeok would 2 base blink all in no scout. Hammer would win no matter how godlike duckdeoks micro is because it's a build order win. It's just how ladder works.
But, the build is strong.. and if I am desprate for cheese ... I use your build, and get easy wins probably 1/3 of the time, I am uncertain how you are able to keep winning over 50% of the time .. at first the build won me 4-5 games in a row.. but the better players i play the less often i win.
I would love to see some recent replays of you "crushing" masterportoss who don't let you get an "easy win" .. *conditions stated above.
You fail to realize that ladder is best of 1. Most protoss nowadays will go for the 2 base blink all in(like myself on yeonsu vs hammer),proxy Oracle, or some other type of cheesy shannenegan. Not everybody plays completely safe and knows the appropriate response to this build because it's their first time playing against it. It's the same scenario as nanis 1 gate expo into 4 gate he introduced in 2012 vs drg in gsl. As a result hammer will win a majority of his wins. If Hammer where to play duckdeok and duckdeok would 2 base blink all in no scout. Hammer would win no matter how godlike duckdeoks micro is because it's a build order win. It's just how ladder works.
There is absolutely no reason not to scout if you're doing a 2 Base Blink All-In...
Your overall point is correct, though. This is a strong build on ladder because it is a wonky build that most people won't have seen before, and so most people won't know the correct response. This means that Hammer will get a lot of wins with it in the short-term because he'll still be meeting people who haven't seen it before, but that win-rate will quickly drop-off once more and more people become aware of the build. It took me literally one game to work out the correct response, so I'm pretty sure a pro-player who scouted this opening occurring (Terran can't prevent the scout) would figure it out more-or-less on the fly...
Lol.. you haven't played me or someone who knows how to pull it off correctly and respond to different situations. Even with you knowing exactly what I'm doing I would likely win or give you a run for your money. You seem obsessed with this build lol, funny the things people get hung up on. The build is highly effective, and I have received a lot of positive feedback from GM players much better than you. Cheers
As long as he scouts well, sees what you're doing, and camps his MSC, and whatever units he has (hopefully he drops a second gate and/or has an SG making voids or oracles), then it's over. He made units, sure, but so did you, and he has a safe nat, so he's way ahead of you. Chances are he won't scout your drop with the widows, but chances are it won't do much damage, as in my experience, against players with any sense of control (a lot of diamond and masters protoss don't), he just pulls his workers when he sees it, pops an obs (hopefully he already has one at this point 7ish minutes in) and he holds. And at this point the game is over.
Not to mention, any kind of extremely aggressive stargate opening, like gas first, and he's going to have that oracle in your base before you probably reach his with your push, so it basically becomes a base trade at this point, where he has the advantage of detection against your widow mines and the option to pull workers and kill your 3 measly marauders.
Basically, this build is so wonky, I'm confident any kind of scouting and you will lose 9/10 games. Not to mention, this also relies on him expecting you to transition into bio, if for some reason, idk, he has half a brain and again scouts you, he sees mech, and again, he's not an idiot, he starts making void rays or blink stalkers, lots of them, and then your big bad mech push gets dumped on.
I feel like this is a half ass version of the Thor Hammer All In, I mean, you call it "The Hammer All In"
For those of you who may not know the Thor Hammer was a 2 base timing where you maxed out on thors, marines and banshees with cloak at about 14 minutes and pushed with +1 plating on mech and +1 atk on bio. With the combined mech upgrades I think it would be wise for people to look into this build again, if they're looking for a 2 base all in.
On April 13 2014 00:27 xRiotZx wrote: I feel like this is a half ass version of the Thor Hammer All In, I mean, you call it "The Hammer All In"
For those of you who may not know the Thor Hammer was a 2 base timing where you maxed out on thors, marines and banshees with cloak at about 14 minutes and pushed with +1 plating on mech and +1 atk on bio. With the combined mech upgrades I think it would be wise for people to look into this build again, if they're looking for a 2 base all in.
The composition still works well in HOTS, but requires a different opening. Cheers
On April 13 2014 00:27 xRiotZx wrote: I feel like this is a half ass version of the Thor Hammer All In, I mean, you call it "The Hammer All In"
For those of you who may not know the Thor Hammer was a 2 base timing where you maxed out on thors, marines and banshees with cloak at about 14 minutes and pushed with +1 plating on mech and +1 atk on bio. With the combined mech upgrades I think it would be wise for people to look into this build again, if they're looking for a 2 base all in.
The composition still works well in HOTS, but requires a different opening. Cheers
I don't think you got the point, I'm saying your build is bad and there are better 2 base alternatives.
On April 13 2014 00:27 xRiotZx wrote: I feel like this is a half ass version of the Thor Hammer All In, I mean, you call it "The Hammer All In"
For those of you who may not know the Thor Hammer was a 2 base timing where you maxed out on thors, marines and banshees with cloak at about 14 minutes and pushed with +1 plating on mech and +1 atk on bio. With the combined mech upgrades I think it would be wise for people to look into this build again, if they're looking for a 2 base all in.
The composition still works well in HOTS, but requires a different opening. Cheers
I don't think you got the point, I'm saying your build is bad and there are better 2 base alternatives.
Oh, then I don't care :D
On April 14 2014 04:36 morbidmuffin wrote: Great build!
On April 13 2014 00:27 xRiotZx wrote: I feel like this is a half ass version of the Thor Hammer All In, I mean, you call it "The Hammer All In"
For those of you who may not know the Thor Hammer was a 2 base timing where you maxed out on thors, marines and banshees with cloak at about 14 minutes and pushed with +1 plating on mech and +1 atk on bio. With the combined mech upgrades I think it would be wise for people to look into this build again, if they're looking for a 2 base all in.
The composition still works well in HOTS, but requires a different opening. Cheers
I don't think you got the point, I'm saying your build is bad and there are better 2 base alternatives.
On April 13 2014 00:27 xRiotZx wrote: I feel like this is a half ass version of the Thor Hammer All In, I mean, you call it "The Hammer All In"
For those of you who may not know the Thor Hammer was a 2 base timing where you maxed out on thors, marines and banshees with cloak at about 14 minutes and pushed with +1 plating on mech and +1 atk on bio. With the combined mech upgrades I think it would be wise for people to look into this build again, if they're looking for a 2 base all in.
The composition still works well in HOTS, but requires a different opening. Cheers
I don't think you got the point, I'm saying your build is bad and there are better 2 base alternatives.
Oh, then I don't care :D
On April 14 2014 04:36 morbidmuffin wrote: Great build!
Thanks!
Did you make that account just to comment on your own thread and say "Great build!" :\
Haha no, that would be pretty sad. You'll notice all the other positive feedback, thanks ;D
hi, i used to post in the bnet forums since hammer is popular there. i just want to say that this build does work and i've beaten a ton of high masters players with it. the only issue i have is that sometimes my opponents will open with phoenixes and will just lift up the widow mines in the pressure push (beginning of the game)
I found that an immortal/archon composition can work, this is a replay (except for the very sloppy hold of the marauder/mine push): http://ggtracker.com/matches/4956904
On April 24 2014 00:45 tmh wrote: hi, i used to post in the bnet forums since hammer is popular there. i just want to say that this build does work and i've beaten a ton of high masters players with it. the only issue i have is that sometimes my opponents will open with phoenixes and will just lift up the widow mines in the pressure push (beginning of the game)
Another 1 post user, this time with a mitigating statement. Not suspicious at all xD
Not to mention hammer is a previously banned user. Mods already know, and said it was a year or two ago and as long as he behaves he will get around the perma ban he had placed on him.
We should go through his old account, and post the great things he's said.
Just since his ban he has like 3-4 single post then closed threads. Guy LOVES to make threads apparently lol
Hey Hammer, I really like this build and I'm trying to master it, I think it still needs some refinement. My question is: Have you experimented with another transicion?, I was thinking in a Sky-Terran Mid-Late game after the 4 mine drop.
On April 24 2014 00:45 tmh wrote: hi, i used to post in the bnet forums since hammer is popular there. i just want to say that this build does work and i've beaten a ton of high masters players with it. the only issue i have is that sometimes my opponents will open with phoenixes and will just lift up the widow mines in the pressure push (beginning of the game)
Another 1 post user, this time with a mitigating statement. Not suspicious at all xD
Not to mention hammer is a previously banned user. Mods already know, and said it was a year or two ago and as long as he behaves he will get around the perma ban he had placed on him.
We should go through his old account, and post the great things he's said.
Just since his ban he has like 3-4 single post then closed threads. Guy LOVES to make threads apparently lol
you know if you have that mentality, you just assumed that everyone is a potential serial killer just because they have a 1 on their face
User was banned for this post. (Previously banned User, not specifically banned for this post)
On April 24 2014 00:45 tmh wrote: hi, i used to post in the bnet forums since hammer is popular there. i just want to say that this build does work and i've beaten a ton of high masters players with it. the only issue i have is that sometimes my opponents will open with phoenixes and will just lift up the widow mines in the pressure push (beginning of the game)
What's your user name on Battlenet? Glad you're having some success with the build! :D
On April 24 2014 11:57 KaiserCommander wrote: Hey Hammer, I really like this build and I'm trying to master it, I think it still needs some refinement. My question is: Have you experimented with another transicion?, I was thinking in a Sky-Terran Mid-Late game after the 4 mine drop.
Cheers, I have not gone too far off course. Sometimes I open with 2 marines, 2 maraud, 2 wm for initial pressure though. You can def go to macro style, as long as you are scouting well and identifying what the toss player is doing. Good luck :D
Strong first attack with the 3 maraud 2 mines but OPcharge can nullify this on many new maps. The mine drop cannot succeed afterwards unless the protoss player is going full retard. You put pression early on with mines, he will have tools to detect/counter mine drop. Most of the time they just camp stalkers in mineral lines waiting for the drop without scouting anything because it is obvious next move.
The push with hellbat tank ghost is really really strong but I think this build is easily countered by a protoss that know what is happening. If he sees the push 3 maraud 2 mines, he will scout for this build and then just 3 base macro ultra greedy because he know pressure will come only after 13 min. Then it's just basic mathematics he just have too much stuff.
I wonder if there is a way to get to your push hellbat tank ghost using hellion pressure instead of WM in the midgame especially to counter the 3 base greed. Because let's face it it's not a 4 WM drop that will do anything to a competent protoss on 3 bases.
It's good fun to try this for time to time, I like awkward strategies because i'm sick of "standard" play. I just added your build to my arsenal of "crazy" builds and I think it have a great potential on certain maps.
Also it is really good stuff for macro mecanics practice because I find really demanding to maintain perfect macro for this build. It is very challenging compared to bio play (maybe because I am so much used to make bio )
On April 24 2014 16:56 klup wrote: My personal feedback on this build (low master).
Strong first attack with the 3 maraud 2 mines but OPcharge can nullify this on many new maps. The mine drop cannot succeed afterwards unless the protoss player is going full retard. You put pression early on with mines, he will have tools to detect/counter mine drop. Most of the time they just camp stalkers in mineral lines waiting for the drop without scouting anything because it is obvious next move.
The push with hellbat tank ghost is really really strong but I think this build is easily countered by a protoss that know what is happening. If he sees the push 3 maraud 2 mines, he will scout for this build and then just 3 base macro ultra greedy because he know pressure will come only after 13 min. Then it's just basic mathematics he just have too much stuff.
I wonder if there is a way to get to your push hellbat tank ghost using hellion pressure instead of WM in the midgame especially to counter the 3 base greed. Because let's face it it's not a 4 WM drop that will do anything to a competent protoss on 3 bases.
It's good fun to try this for time to time, I like awkward strategies because i'm sick of "standard" play. I just added your build to my arsenal of "crazy" builds and I think it have a great potential on certain maps.
Also it is really good stuff for macro mecanics practice because I find really demanding to maintain perfect macro for this build. It is very challenging compared to bio play (maybe because I am so much used to make bio )
1. Wait 60 seconds, attack again. 2. Mine drop, hellbat drop, cloakshee, doesn't matter, do someithing, damage, scout 3. Glad you have some fun with it
And yes, it's good macro mechanic practice, as you can go hard on this after the initial pressure
What are you thought on building a hellion based aggression since you build a lot of hellbat anyway sticking at home for like 4+ minutes and then research the transformation servos to get those beefy hellbats when the push timing bell is ringing?
I will try this approach for my next games with this strategy , it will need adaptation of the BO after the initial push. I will give you my feedback on that .
On April 24 2014 19:03 klup wrote: What are you thought on building a hellion based aggression since you build a lot of hellbat anyway sticking at home for like 4+ minutes and then research the transformation servos to get those beefy hellbats when the push timing bell is ringing?
I will try this approach for my next games with this strategy , it will need adaptation of the BO after the initial push. I will give you my feedback on that .
Sounds good. Are you thinking like helli drops, or runbys? Let me know how it goes! Bonsoir
Hey Hammer, I've tested the Sky-Terran Mid-Late games I was talking. The only problem is that, if I understood well the purpose if the build, is to have more supply than the toss and not upgrades at all, so, Sky-Terran relies too damn much in upgrades to be efficient. Can you give me any ideas?, I do the opening, the Marauder/Widow Mine pressure, then the Widow Mine drop and then I go to Sky-Terran.
On April 25 2014 05:09 KaiserCommander wrote: Hey Hammer, I've tested the Sky-Terran Mid-Late games I was talking. The only problem is that, if I understood well the purpose if the build, is to have more supply than the toss and not upgrades at all, so, Sky-Terran relies too damn much in upgrades to be efficient. Can you give me any ideas?, I do the opening, the Marauder/Widow Mine pressure, then the Widow Mine drop and then I go to Sky-Terran.
You're still going to need solid defence in the mid-game, so you will have to turtle mech into air. I would recommend an early third CC when safe, and hellbat drops while you're building your sky army.
just tried this and damn, did the protoss get owned. im only low masters atm but this build is pretty damn sharp. dont feel like the protoss can come up with a suitable repsonse in time for the mech poush unless he is very familiar with the build already and knows in advance, that it is coming. scouting certainly isnt enough. GJ hammer keep up the great work
On April 24 2014 00:45 tmh wrote: hi, i used to post in the bnet forums since hammer is popular there. i just want to say that this build does work and i've beaten a ton of high masters players with it. the only issue i have is that sometimes my opponents will open with phoenixes and will just lift up the widow mines in the pressure push (beginning of the game)
Another 1 post user, this time with a mitigating statement. Not suspicious at all xD
how about giving constructive feedback instead of getting lost in ludacris conspiracy theories m8?
On April 25 2014 19:40 SatedSC2 wrote: Like I said in this post, I'm still very interested in how Hammer would respond to a situation where his opponent has more upgrades than him, a larger army than him, better tech than him and a better economy than him :3
It's extremely rare that an opponent ever has a larger army than me. Like I've mentioned several times, even if early pressure is stopped it's still forcing Protoss to chrono army and not be as economically solid, so there is "damage" done in that sense. I also use the build adaptively, and adjust as I need based on Protoss is doing. For example I played an opponent on Alterzim once, and 14 min timing was effective but didn't outright win. I transitioned into macro play, and it was a pretty solid, epic air battle. Good players always play reactively to a certain extent, so that is also necessary when it comes to this build, like any other.
On April 24 2014 00:45 tmh wrote: hi, i used to post in the bnet forums since hammer is popular there. i just want to say that this build does work and i've beaten a ton of high masters players with it. the only issue i have is that sometimes my opponents will open with phoenixes and will just lift up the widow mines in the pressure push (beginning of the game)
Another 1 post user, this time with a mitigating statement. Not suspicious at all xD
how about giving constructive feedback instead of getting lost in ludacris conspiracy theories m8?
If you read the whole thread then you'll see that I've made plenty of constructive posts.
Given that Hammer ignored my very detailed direct-counter to this build (as well as my evidence of it working) before going on to dismiss the ease at which I can crush it by claiming that he has "received a lot of positive feedback from GM players", you should probably aim your comments about constructive posting at Hammer instead of at me. He has done nothing to dismiss the very obvious flaws that people have shown this build to have, choosing instead to throw out ad hominems and false appeals to authority. I find it very curious that none of these supposed GM players have come forward to defend this build, but I do not find it surprising given that a Masters player such as myself was able to formulate a direct counter to this opening having only encountered it once.
EDIT:
Like I said in this post, I'm still very interested in how Hammer would respond to a situation where his opponent has more upgrades than him, a larger army than him, better tech than him and a better economy than him :3
dude a bronze level theorycraft is not constructive feedback in my eyes. how would any opening or build work if the enemy was ahead in every regard. if u actually had tried the build or playing against it when properly executed you would see that there is no window for protoss to get ahead on upgrades and army unless you mess the build up every step of the way :3333333333333
@Sated Lmao your obsessed with this build/thread. Kind of sad. And you haven't crushed me, so who knows if your opponent was even implementing the build correctly.
No chrono but you're building cannons, 200 mins down the drain. I've gone up against player that cannon at the front and rolled them. Your talk is just conjecture, move along.
It's an interesting idea, but I've been shut down completely doing this build a few times. Since it's pretty hard to hide, an early MSC can hold it off with the nexus cannon. Then the mech follow up push thats at around 13-14 gets absolutely WRECKED if they go skytoss(rather tempest heavy). Mech is just too easily countered if they know what they're doing.
You're better off going some sort of 1 base drop, instead of doing this push, because you're more likely to do damage with the 1 base drop despite your opponents reaction.
On April 29 2014 03:22 OGzan wrote: It's an interesting idea, but I've been shut down completely doing this build a few times. Since it's pretty hard to hide, an early MSC can hold it off with the nexus cannon. Then the mech follow up push thats at around 13-14 gets absolutely WRECKED if they go skytoss(rather tempest heavy). Mech is just too easily countered if they know what they're doing.
You're better off going some sort of 1 base drop, instead of doing this push, because you're more likely to do damage with the 1 base drop despite your opponents reaction.
OGz, another way you can do the opening and reduce scouting is to 12 rax 12 gas and get 2 marines first before marauders. Try this and you might have better success. Are you pushing early as possible (leaving around 5:15) and forcing nex cannon, retreating and pushing hard 60 seconds later? These are important parts of the early pressure.
On April 28 2014 06:33 -Hammer- wrote: @Sated Lmao your obsessed with this build/thread. Kind of sad. And you haven't crushed me, so who knows if your opponent was even implementing the build correctly.
No chrono but you're building cannons, 200 mins down the drain. I've gone up against player that cannon at the front and rolled them. Your talk is just conjecture, move along.
;D
What can I say? I don't like it when people lie.
I didn't realise that a Cannon costs 200 minerals, that's some good knowledge that you have there. And it isn't exactly "200" minerals down the drain if it helps to deflect your push, especially since your push costs you far more than "200" minerals to execute. Like I said, the build I use to deflect your opening is a build that already gets a Cannon in the main and a Cannon at the natural, adding an additional Cannon to the natural isn't a big deal relative to the economic hit you take by using your opening. Two Cannons and Photon Overcharge often times crush your push with ease.
My talk isn't conjecture. I've crushed this build multiple times, whereas you've yet to provide a single replay of a game were the Protoss didn't completely derp against your pressure. My counter-build is a build that I copied from TAiLS and so is something that works at a high KR GM level (albeit with the addition of a single Cannon to deflect the initial pressure), whereas your build isn't used by anyone who is even close to being that relevant. Finally, whether I was playing against you or not is irrelevant, unless you truly believe that Masters players can't execute a build order properly in the early stages of the game. I highly doubt that the people I've played are missing some magic timing to deal damage that only you can hit.
You're incredibly arrogant considering that not a single notable player has backed you up. Where are these GM players you keep talking about? If you've had good feedback from GM players, I'm sure you'll be able to show some replays of a GM player using this build in GM league against a Protoss who scouts it and reacts properly
EDIT:
Your build is essentially like a Dark Templar rush. If the Terran scouts it, figures it out, and responds properly, they take no damage and probably win the game because the Protoss is pretty far behind. If the Terran doesn't scout it, doesn't figure it out, or doesn't respond properly, then they take a lot of damage and the game is more or less over.
A Dark Templar rush is a cheese. This is a cheese. End of story.
Do you even know what a "cheese" is?, I mean, I don't know about cheeses that allow Mid-Late game and, to add, you're in same terms with Hammer saying you took the build from TAiLS, the magic words are "you say". All build have pros and cons, this is not a magic all powered build, but reading the thread, is a viable build, as I said in previous posts, I feel it need to be refined, it suffers of some serious flawsd epending in opponent micro, but not on composition.
On April 28 2014 06:33 -Hammer- wrote: @Sated Lmao your obsessed with this build/thread. Kind of sad. And you haven't crushed me, so who knows if your opponent was even implementing the build correctly.
No chrono but you're building cannons, 200 mins down the drain. I've gone up against player that cannon at the front and rolled them. Your talk is just conjecture, move along.
;D
What can I say? I don't like it when people lie.
I didn't realise that a Cannon costs 200 minerals, that's some good knowledge that you have there. And it isn't exactly "200" minerals down the drain if it helps to deflect your push, especially since your push costs you far more than "200" minerals to execute. Like I said, the build I use to deflect your opening is a build that already gets a Cannon in the main and a Cannon at the natural, adding an additional Cannon to the natural isn't a big deal relative to the economic hit you take by using your opening. Two Cannons and Photon Overcharge often times crush your push with ease.
My talk isn't conjecture. I've crushed this build multiple times, whereas you've yet to provide a single replay of a game were the Protoss didn't completely derp against your pressure. My counter-build is a build that I copied from TAiLS and so is something that works at a high KR GM level (albeit with the addition of a single Cannon to deflect the initial pressure), whereas your build isn't used by anyone who is even close to being that relevant. Finally, whether I was playing against you or not is irrelevant, unless you truly believe that Masters players can't execute a build order properly in the early stages of the game. I highly doubt that the people I've played are missing some magic timing to deal damage that only you can hit.
You're incredibly arrogant considering that not a single notable player has backed you up. Where are these GM players you keep talking about? If you've had good feedback from GM players, I'm sure you'll be able to show some replays of a GM player using this build in GM league against a Protoss who scouts it and reacts properly
EDIT:
Your build is essentially like a Dark Templar rush. If the Terran scouts it, figures it out, and responds properly, they take no damage and probably win the game because the Protoss is pretty far behind. If the Terran doesn't scout it, doesn't figure it out, or doesn't respond properly, then they take a lot of damage and the game is more or less over.
A Dark Templar rush is a cheese. This is a cheese. End of story.
Do you even know what a "cheese" is?, I mean, I don't know about cheeses that allow Mid-Late game and, to add, you're in same terms with Hammer saying you took the build from TAiLS, the magic words are "you say". All build have pros and cons, this is not a magic all powered build, but reading the thread, is a viable build, as I said in previous posts, I feel it need to be refined, it suffers of some serious flawsd epending in opponent micro, but not on composition.
A Dark Templar FE is a "cheese" that allows a mid/late game if it does enough damage to come out even. If it gets scouted though, the opponent will be ready and it won't come out even, which will put the Protoss quite far behind. The same goes for this build. It is cheesy because it relies on the opponent not scouting it; if the opponent scouts it and knows the response then they shouldn't take any damage.
There are a lot of "cheesy" openings that allow for a mid/late game if they manage to deal damage equal to the cost required to execute them; the common thread between them is that the opponent getting off a scout will usually render them useless.
EDIT:
Funnily enough, I just beat this build without even scouting because I initially thought my opponent was Zerg. Deflected the pressure quite easily with an Immortal and some Gateway units (I opened with a standard 1 Gate FE -> Robo since I didn't scout) and then went for a 2 Base 7 Gate Immortal all-in with an old-school "bulldog" Zealot drop on all the Tanks they'd amassed by the time I attacked. Very funny stuff, I love seeing Tanks kill themselves. Seriously, this build is essentially trash, if it doesn't deal damage then any 2 base timing-attack will hit before the Terran has enough to defend xD
This also represents the first time I've seen anyone on EU using this build. Gonna have to make sure I know my opponent's race when I play so that I can actually scout and respond properly lololol.
As I guessed, you don't know what a cheese is. You are talking about "cheesy" openings but never pointing to a solid definition of "cheese". With the definition you gave, you're saying that every all in is a "cheese". And, if you remember a little from BroodWar, the purpose of the "cheese" is to directly kill your oponent with the atack, that also means that you will be surely killed performing a failed cheese. I do not if you're jealous or something, because you're attacking with idiotic stuff to the author of this build. This is not the new meta-game build, this is not a panacea confronting a race with shit-ton of all ins but it is a good build, of course you'll defeat some players performing it as you surely has defeated players doing Mech, doing Sky-Terran, doing 2-Barracks agression and that does not make them "trash build", so, shut the fuck up and let us Terran players take this build, develop it and use it. I'm very interested to explore the posibilities of this idea and your idiotic comments are only more trash to retire in the search of the worthy posts.
lol sated must have totally lost to this build first time he saw it. hes so cheesed off that someone had more originality than him and came up with a build that no one has really seen before that he had to go out and copy some pros build to hard counter it, a build so safe its practically cheese itself. no one said it was a "solid, standard build" dude. its original and im sure its won a few matches. scouting gas first doesnt mean this particular build is coming either.
Ive faced your build once , and i will try to explain what happened in the game, since i don't have any replays :
First game : i had a plan in my mind of going zealot / stalker expand into 3gate robo ( rain glorious build ) , when i scouted some things that felt unusual , still , moved on , when the first push came in , with basic micro , i could deflect it , without spending any chrono on army , after that i had on my mind that i was somewhat ahead , afterwards , the drop came in , negate some mining time on the main , and with a stalker positioning i could deflect the natural too , i attack right away ( around 13 minutes if my mind doesn't trick me ), with +2/1 2 colossus , and blink stalkers , he dies.
This is not thrash talking to the build , its just that , with some micro and a simple macro build , the hammer build can suffer a little , again , not thrash talking or anything like that.
Bottom line , the build itself is very clever , but it need some tweaks to be more effective against Macro protoss players like me. Cheers mate !
Sated, I'm curious how exactly those games you deflected the first pressure of this build played out. I'm not doubting you that you though. On the contrary you are probably right about this build and it is sort of cheesy. Still i love it.
However, keep in mind that when you make a response to this build, there could be ways to deviate from hammers original build and adapt to what the response you're doing. It's hard to say mainly because the people doing this build (including me) blind copies the build from this post. Thus it would be nice of you could provide some replays of games where you crush this build for further analysis and to figure out whether the faults lies with the terran that loses or in the build itself.
I'm loving this build since I have been using it I have about an 75-80% winrate, I'm Gold, so this is a great bronze to Gold build (and up since you are using it masters league)
On May 02 2014 18:07 Thyrym wrote: Hi Hammer , im currently bad , i mean , diamond .
Ive faced your build once , and i will try to explain what happened in the game, since i don't have any replays :
First game : i had a plan in my mind of going zealot / stalker expand into 3gate robo ( rain glorious build ) , when i scouted some things that felt unusual , still , moved on , when the first push came in , with basic micro , i could deflect it , without spending any chrono on army , after that i had on my mind that i was somewhat ahead , afterwards , the drop came in , negate some mining time on the main , and with a stalker positioning i could deflect the natural too , i attack right away ( around 13 minutes if my mind doesn't trick me ), with +2/1 2 colossus , and blink stalkers , he dies.
This is not thrash talking to the build , its just that , with some micro and a simple macro build , the hammer build can suffer a little , again , not thrash talking or anything like that.
Bottom line , the build itself is very clever , but it need some tweaks to be more effective against Macro protoss players like me. Cheers mate !
Thanks. I'm always making small adjustments to improve the build. This guide is just a template to help players understand the concept, timings etcetera. Thanks for your feedback
On May 03 2014 06:45 Ruiner wrote: I'm loving this build since I have been using it I have about an 75-80% winrate, I'm Gold, so this is a great bronze to Gold build (and up since you are using it masters league)
Awesome, that's great to hear. It's always nice to get a few solid go-to builds. Let me know if you want any suggestions to improving your TvZ or TvT. You're welcome to add me in game Hammer#1909 if you have some quick questions. Cheers.
It looks good for a surprise, a good fit for a game two of a Bo3 when you win the first. Other than that, too gimmicky, too reliant on throwing the protoss off with the harass. Mine drops after that marauder/mine poke is a big clue-in that the Protoss should 2base allin. You've spent this much time on harassy units and there's nothing meaty up yet to challenge a standard protoss midgame allin. The replays I saw were as much the opponent blundering in the face of weird tactics as they were a build asset, and mannn some of those builds.
It doesn't rise to the level of a [G] Guide for this forum without a few wins against opponents that shrug off the harass (play more if you don't have these yet) and losses with analysis.
The action begins with a quick marauder/widow mine timing, transitions into widow mine drop/s, and finishes with a high supply mech timing push. The build is very safe, and counters almost all early Protoss aggression. As the game progresses, the main composition is Tank/BF Hellbat/Viking/Medivac/Ghost, although it can be changed to counter when necessary (ie; Blink Stalker = Marauders emphasis, air Protoss = Thor/Viking emphasis).
You are so very far from demonstrating its safe and counters much at all.
On May 04 2014 10:12 Danglars wrote: It looks good for a surprise, a good fit for a game two of a Bo3 when you win the first. Other than that, too gimmicky, too reliant on throwing the protoss off with the harass. Mine drops after that marauder/mine poke is a big clue-in that the Protoss should 2base allin. You've spent this much time on harassy units and there's nothing meaty up yet to challenge a standard protoss midgame allin. The replays I saw were as much the opponent blundering in the face of weird tactics as they were a build asset, and mannn some of those builds.
It doesn't rise to the level of a [G] Guide for this forum without a few wins against opponents that shrug off the harass (play more if you don't have these yet) and losses with analysis.
The action begins with a quick marauder/widow mine timing, transitions into widow mine drop/s, and finishes with a high supply mech timing push. The build is very safe, and counters almost all early Protoss aggression. As the game progresses, the main composition is Tank/BF Hellbat/Viking/Medivac/Ghost, although it can be changed to counter when necessary (ie; Blink Stalker = Marauders emphasis, air Protoss = Thor/Viking emphasis).
You are so very far from demonstrating its safe and counters much at all.
After playing with this build for some time now I'd have to say you are simply wrong. The opener is actually quite strong and good againsta variety of protoss openers and it transitions very well into bio. Thus, it is not simply a gimmicky build that solely relies on surprise. The thing i like the most about this build is that it takes all the control away from the protoss right from the start. The mine drop is just icing on the cake while the real power lies with the initial push.
Sated claims he can hold it off easily and perhaps that is the case with the current build He is using but it doesn't apply to all openers.
The biggest weakness of this build is probably that it's so easily scouted so IF there is an extremely good counter to this build then the opener would have to tweaked (build a marine) to disguise it more.
I'm diamond league with a current 71% win ratio TvP btw (used to be 40% with reaper opener).
On May 04 2014 10:12 Danglars wrote: It looks good for a surprise, a good fit for a game two of a Bo3 when you win the first. Other than that, too gimmicky, too reliant on throwing the protoss off with the harass. Mine drops after that marauder/mine poke is a big clue-in that the Protoss should 2base allin. You've spent this much time on harassy units and there's nothing meaty up yet to challenge a standard protoss midgame allin. The replays I saw were as much the opponent blundering in the face of weird tactics as they were a build asset, and mannn some of those builds.
It doesn't rise to the level of a [G] Guide for this forum without a few wins against opponents that shrug off the harass (play more if you don't have these yet) and losses with analysis.
The action begins with a quick marauder/widow mine timing, transitions into widow mine drop/s, and finishes with a high supply mech timing push. The build is very safe, and counters almost all early Protoss aggression. As the game progresses, the main composition is Tank/BF Hellbat/Viking/Medivac/Ghost, although it can be changed to counter when necessary (ie; Blink Stalker = Marauders emphasis, air Protoss = Thor/Viking emphasis).
You are so very far from demonstrating its safe and counters much at all.
After playing with this build for some time now I'd have to say you are simply wrong. The opener is actually quite strong and good againsta variety of protoss openers and it transitions very well into bio. Thus, it is not simply a gimmicky build that solely relies on surprise. The thing i like the most about this build is that it takes all the control away from the protoss right from the start. The mine drop is just icing on the cake while the real power lies with the initial push.
Sated claims he can hold it off easily and perhaps that is the case with the current build He is using but it doesn't apply to all openers.
The biggest weakness of this build is probably that it's so easily scouted so IF there is an extremely good counter to this build then the opener would have to tweaked (build a marine) to disguise it more.
I'm diamond league with a current 71% win ratio TvP btw (used to be 40% with reaper opener).
I change the opening that I use if I scout this build order being used. My normal build wouldn't do well against this because my normal build is set-up to deal with standard Bio timing-attacks and not a timing-attack that hits much earlier. A lot of Protoss openings don't deal with early aggression well because they're very macro focused and are essentially reliant on Photon Overcharge to get them through early pressure. Frankly, if a Protoss player doesn't alter their build when they scout this opening then they're playing badly and you shouldn't take games against them as evidence that this build is good, only as evidence that failing to react to scouting is bad
I've played alot of protoss who have altered their openers.I can't go into every game in detail but some answers with a fast robo and immortal which usually saves them their exp and it seems like a decent respons. Although, I usually end up winning in the mid game regardless whether the mine drop does any dmg or not. Some throw up a bunch of gates and go all in on me and that sure doesn't work. Neither does immortal gate pushes. I faced 1 base with 4 oracles and gateway all in and that killed me but it could have been held off had i responded more adequately. I died to DTs once as well and i think that could be something this build is weak against.
Other than that, im having some pretty good success with this build and the more i play with it the more convinced i become that this could very well be "standard" build or "viable" build (i.e. not cheese). It is too early to say though but i encourage every terran in diamond or below ( cant speak for above as its above my league) to start doing this build. Only then when more people start using it will we know for sure just how strong/weak this build is.
Note: I'm not actually doing this exact build. Im using the opener and the widow mine drop. After that i transition into bio, research stim from my already made techlab, get +1 from my already made ebay and pump marines, mines and medivacs from a naked starport.
Just wanted to sat that this builds work really well for me in diamond. From being my weakest 40% matchup it is now my strongest (70%) matchup (winratewise). I do however a normal 1 racks reaper expand in to factory starport with some marine/mine/medivac harras. I have won all of my standard tvps with the push shortly after 14m (except for a few, but they died to a follow up attack). I am curious, what are the correct response from the protoss to the deal with the 14-15m push?
On May 16 2014 08:44 Gullis wrote: Just wanted to sat that this builds work really well for me in diamond. From being my weakest 40% matchup it is now my strongest (70%) matchup (winratewise). I do however a normal 1 racks reaper expand in to factory starport with some marine/mine/medivac harras. I have won all of my standard tvps with the push shortly after 14m (except for a few, but they died to a follow up attack). I am curious, what are the correct response from the protoss to the deal with the 14-15m push?
It sounds like your opening is quite different, are you referring to the composition and timing attack for your use? Glad it's improving your w/l ration so much! There are a few responses that Protoss can do to try and deal with the 14/15 timing, but even then it was to be well controlled and will be close.
I wrote this to a diamond terran but I thought I'd post it here:
I've been using variations of the Hammer build over the past month with a 59% win rate (top diamond). Most of the time I do very significant damage with the first attack. The key things are to: target units and pylons (especially artosis) with the marauders at (if possible) the main, burrow mine by mineral line, ignore MSC while keep rallying/microing marauders/mine, pull back when cannon is activated (use this time to kill natural if possible; a bunker can be useful), then go back in.
If they go double gas I rally my second mine to my minerals–unless I find him spending gas on something other than a stargate. I don't build engineering bay unless something is fishy (no evidence of gas spending or oracle).
There's the possibility he scouts you and knows how to react, but that's actually sadly uncommon at diamond. But even then it can be effective if played properly (macro, defend, harass, then attack).
If the first attack was effective, you can transition into almost anything. You can immediately start stim on the TL and go for a stim +1 timing or do the usual 15min mech push (what I like to do). If I'm feeling frisky and I think they're going robo units then I'll go mass banshees with some bio, otherwise maybe mass mines with fast burrow and armor upgrade. It all depends on their tech tree and how much damage the first attack did.
It's a great strategy for free wins on ladder. Thank you Hammer. I don't know how much longer this strategy will be effective but I'm happy with it now.
On May 23 2014 13:29 eightym wrote: I wrote this to a diamond terran but I thought I'd post it here:
I've been using variations of the Hammer build over the past month with a 59% win rate (top diamond). Most of the time I do very significant damage with the first attack. The key things are to: target units and pylons (especially artosis) with the marauders at (if possible) the main, burrow mine by mineral line, ignore MSC while keep rallying/microing marauders/mine, pull back when cannon is activated (use this time to kill natural if possible; a bunker can be useful), then go back in.
If they go double gas I rally my second mine to my minerals–unless I find him spending gas on something other than a stargate. I don't build engineering bay unless something is fishy (no evidence of gas spending or oracle).
There's the possibility he scouts you and knows how to react, but that's actually sadly uncommon at diamond. But even then it can be effective if played properly (macro, defend, harass, then attack).
If the first attack was effective, you can transition into almost anything. You can immediately start stim on the TL and go for a stim +1 timing or do the usual 15min mech push (what I like to do). If I'm feeling frisky and I think they're going robo units then I'll go mass banshees with some bio, otherwise maybe mass mines with fast burrow and armor upgrade. It all depends on their tech tree and how much damage the first attack did.
It's a great strategy for free wins on ladder. Thank you Hammer. I don't know how much longer this strategy will be effective but I'm happy with it now.
Great to hear! Thanks for your thorough feedback, it's nice to know players are utilizing the build effectively.
There have been some important, and subtle changes to the build, and subsequently this guide. Notable changes are a quick 3rd OC in base when scouting Protoss has expanded (with the initial pressure). The drop harass now utilizes widow mines, or hellions/hellbats. Transitional changes after mid-game include a faster secured third and cloak banshee integration.
Please let me know if you have any questions in regards to the updates. Cheers!
Hey yo haven't checked out the replays because I'm on mobile, but the build itself doesn't really say when to start adding in star port, armory or gasses. Is there a general time for this or is it all situational? The build however looks really fun and I can't wait to start practicing it.
ahah funnily enough the initial push worked pretty well, even if you got a huge supply cap at 19 delaying your 1st maraudeur for a long time..............
Hi, could you re-upload those replays to another site? and add more please?
The links are still broken.
Thank you for the great build. I'm interested in trying it out but I need replays to understand it much better than just reading the guide. Hope you can fix the replays issue ASAP.
On June 30 2014 21:17 PoisonTV wrote: Is anyone able to provide some more recent replays of them using this build?
Replays have been updated!
On July 31 2014 21:15 Salient wrote: Is this a solid build that can be used every TvP even if your opponent knows that it's coming, or is surprise an essential element?
Absolutely. I have played repeated games against the same opponent, even telling them I am utilizing the build again, and gone on to win. You can also use the opening, and then transition into bio too :D It is solid.
On July 31 2014 20:28 Slashiepie wrote: Links are broken now. I love this build.
Well at my very modest level, it's an extremely solid build against toss. I absolutely dismanteled a proxy oracle build with this. It benefits a lot from the hellbat buff, and from the former ghost buff.
However I use a slight variation : -I go reactor after the 2nd or 3rd mine, and make an armory quite fast. Defending a counterpush with marauders hellbats is quite easy (unless it involves voidrays, which is a possible reaction that has to be scouted), and ofc reactored starport as soon as possible. -I go for a fast 3rd cc, into 3 facto starport barracks with ghost. The starport focuses on vikings if he makes colossi or voids, medivac otherwise. The facto makes tanks and/or thors according to the composition. The hellbats are real good against zealots that are a traditional answer to tanks, and they prevent aggressive blinking on tanks or thors (please blink on my hellbats !).
However, I feel that with a good decision making toss can be ok, since the CC is late. This is why hellbat drops must cover for a fast 3rd CC, and the timing push has to be really sharp. The 2 base all in seems really dangerous as reaching a critical mass is not fast in mech.
On July 31 2014 21:15 Salient wrote: Is this a solid build that can be used every TvP even if your opponent knows that it's coming, or is surprise an essential element?
Absolutely. I have played repeated games against the same opponent, even telling them I am utilizing the build again, and gone on to win. You can also use the opening, and then transition into bio too :D It is solid.
On July 31 2014 20:28 Slashiepie wrote: Links are broken now. I love this build.
Fixed, and thanks! :D
Yeah i love transition into bio too instead... It is much easier now since you have like 80-90 percent chance they will go collosus first after that mine buff heh... so yeah thanks for sharing, even though i like more economic builds against toss this is something that can shake with mindset of opponent in series too... What i would like to ask is how you usualy play it out when following up with bio?
On August 11 2014 21:17 Warzilla wrote: Yeah i love transition into bio too instead... It is much easier now since you have like 80-90 percent chance they will go collosus first after that mine buff heh... so yeah thanks for sharing, even though i like more economic builds against toss this is something that can shake with mindset of opponent in series too... What i would like to ask is how you usualy play it out when following up with bio?
I like to drop a lot when using bio, mix in a few mines, and try to keep the Protoss supply low. Protoss becomes a lot harder to deal with in larger numbers so just chip away and then attack when you feel are in a superior position.
Been starting to use a variation of the Hammer build with even more success than the Marauder/Mine build I was using before. It starts out rushing to a Reactor'd Factory to get 2 Mines out, followed shortly by the Marauder w/conc shells (Bunker w/scouting worker if possible). Factory then produces Hellions while the Barracks continues to build Marauders. Expo behind the Barracks and Factory when the money is there.
The Mines and Marauder(s) are exceptional at killing and/or taking units out of position for the Hellions to slide by and roast Probes. The Mines and Marauder simply do not allow the Protoss to block his ramp with Stalkers, and a Sentry (or Sentires) means that the Protoss expo will be delayed.
Been transitioning into Mario-inspired Mine/Tank, also adding Vikings and sometimes a Raven, continuing to build Marauders from the one Barracks since conc is nice. Aggressive with it. The Raven's PDD really helps in case of PO if you have it, and even then it's not entirely necessary. Just making Vikings means that you can scan-kill Observers, kill the MSC, and discourage Colossi. Banshees are an option as support, too, I'm sure, against Robo.
Only thing I'm unsure on is if I should go for a 3rd Mine and 3 Hellions, or just straight for 4 Hellions. The worry here is if Hellions are building when an Oracle comes, but much of they time they keep it home for detection. Currently I've just been doing a 3rd Mine and Hellions, but I'm going to try 4 Hellions as well.
On August 25 2014 07:10 jinjin5000 wrote: hammer, how would you go against mass zealot/archon/immortal composition?
Hi Jinjin, thanks for your question. I don't see that composition too often. The build is set to go into a macro late game after the initial pressure/s so you can adjust as you need to compositionally. The BF Hellbats deal well with mass zealot, and emp is great against archon/immortal. Typically the high supply timing around 14-15 minutes hits before significant amounts of archons are available, and from there the game snowballs. I don't have a replay of this off the top of my head, but if I do I will post it with description. Cheers.
On August 19 2014 13:26 NDBSC2 wrote: Been starting to use a variation of the Hammer build with even more success than the Marauder/Mine build I was using before. It starts out rushing to a Reactor'd Factory to get 2 Mines out, followed shortly by the Marauder w/conc shells (Bunker w/scouting worker if possible). Factory then produces Hellions while the Barracks continues to build Marauders. Expo behind the Barracks and Factory when the money is there.
The Mines and Marauder(s) are exceptional at killing and/or taking units out of position for the Hellions to slide by and roast Probes. The Mines and Marauder simply do not allow the Protoss to block his ramp with Stalkers, and a Sentry (or Sentires) means that the Protoss expo will be delayed.
Been transitioning into Mario-inspired Mine/Tank, also adding Vikings and sometimes a Raven, continuing to build Marauders from the one Barracks since conc is nice. Aggressive with it. The Raven's PDD really helps in case of PO if you have it, and even then it's not entirely necessary. Just making Vikings means that you can scan-kill Observers, kill the MSC, and discourage Colossi. Banshees are an option as support, too, I'm sure, against Robo.
Only thing I'm unsure on is if I should go for a 3rd Mine and 3 Hellions, or just straight for 4 Hellions. The worry here is if Hellions are building when an Oracle comes, but much of they time they keep it home for detection. Currently I've just been doing a 3rd Mine and Hellions, but I'm going to try 4 Hellions as well.
Sounds interesting! Are you still having solid success with this variation NinjDuckBob?
On August 25 2014 07:10 jinjin5000 wrote: hammer, how would you go against mass zealot/archon/immortal composition?
Hi Jinjin, thanks for your question. I don't see that composition too often. The build is set to go into a macro late game after the initial pressure/s so you can adjust as you need to compositionally. The BF Hellbats deal well with mass zealot, and emp is great against archon/immortal. Typically the high supply timing around 14-15 minutes hits before significant amounts of archons are available, and from there the game snowballs. I don't have a replay of this off the top of my head, but if I do I will post it with description. Cheers.
On August 19 2014 13:26 NDBSC2 wrote: Been starting to use a variation of the Hammer build with even more success than the Marauder/Mine build I was using before. It starts out rushing to a Reactor'd Factory to get 2 Mines out, followed shortly by the Marauder w/conc shells (Bunker w/scouting worker if possible). Factory then produces Hellions while the Barracks continues to build Marauders. Expo behind the Barracks and Factory when the money is there.
The Mines and Marauder(s) are exceptional at killing and/or taking units out of position for the Hellions to slide by and roast Probes. The Mines and Marauder simply do not allow the Protoss to block his ramp with Stalkers, and a Sentry (or Sentires) means that the Protoss expo will be delayed.
Been transitioning into Mario-inspired Mine/Tank, also adding Vikings and sometimes a Raven, continuing to build Marauders from the one Barracks since conc is nice. Aggressive with it. The Raven's PDD really helps in case of PO if you have it, and even then it's not entirely necessary. Just making Vikings means that you can scan-kill Observers, kill the MSC, and discourage Colossi. Banshees are an option as support, too, I'm sure, against Robo.
Only thing I'm unsure on is if I should go for a 3rd Mine and 3 Hellions, or just straight for 4 Hellions. The worry here is if Hellions are building when an Oracle comes, but much of they time they keep it home for detection. Currently I've just been doing a 3rd Mine and Hellions, but I'm going to try 4 Hellions as well.
Sounds interesting! Are you still having solid success with this variation NinjDuckBob?
Hammer, @your reply to jinjin, I've figured out that mass Mine/Tank without Hellbats and Ghosts absolutely shreds Zealot/Immortal/Archon. Mario does it too if you want a higher level example, even against other compositions with some air support. Just something worth trying, if you want, IMO. Personally easier for me to use than Hellbats and Ghosts are.
Anyways, to answer your question towards me, yes it's working great *if* I actually use it right. While someone with poor control will be more likely to get wins with the previous build I used which opened with 4 Hellions right of the bat, this variation of your build can be more powerful with someone who has decent control. The Widow Mines and Marauder(s) encourage the Protoss to combat you with his Stalkers and MSC because he doesn't want his Natural killed. The Widow Mines also keep him from easily walling his ramp. This means that the follow-up Hellions deal kind of a "second blow" because there is much less chance the Protoss will wall off with Stalkers if he has to deal with Mines and Marauders, and the Hellions can get in to roast some Probes. It's a bit difficult to do on Nimbus, but if you can get the Mines into the main Mineral line on Nimbus it can be even more powerful.
It's also safer against Oracles. If my SCV scout finds any chance of an Oracle coming, I put one of the Mines in my Mineral line and I just push with the other Widow Mine and Marauder. I'm still wondering whether it's better in that situation whether a 3rd Mine is better or 4 Hellions is still better (I'm currently convinced 4 Hellions is better than the 3rd Mine if there are no Oracles).
The thing is, you have to push as fast as you can on some maps (without sacrificing too much economy, of course), and you need to know where the opponent is. Hellions straight-up can still deal damage if they come a little late and the Protoss doesn't think to wall, but this needs to hit on-time.
Even if it doesn't though, I still win often just because of my follow-up composition. I still delay mining from the Natural while establishing my own, and then get my composition up. There's really only one thing that I have a lot of trouble against when I don't seriously screw up (which happens sometimes, as a Random I don't get a ton of practice with a single matchup), and that is DTs. That's no different than before, though. I'm either just lazy and skip the Raven and find I'm out of Scans, or I forget to make blind Turrets when I can, that kind of thing.
I just added this build to allThingsMech's build order of the week. I want to say thank you Hammer, for you revolutionized how I play TvP, and changed the matchup from one that I constantly dreaded, to one that gives me a wicked little grin at the loading screen as I think of all the bad things that I'm about to do to my unknowing Protoss opponent.
i like the cocept but to stop things like immortal/sentry u need units, not mines. like earlier stated, obs destroy this build. however, i am leaning towards this marauder starting style. ive been 3raxing w/ 1 marauder and combat sheie lately. i think oracles are becoming less scary. the problem is and always has been late game.
I think that the double widow mine version isn't as solid as the 1 tech lab naked factory version simply due to the fact that you are using widow mines as your main unit, whereas it is suppose to be a support unit.
If the opponent did go for a fast expand, a robo can be throw down at around 5 minutes, with an observer out around 6:20.
1 observer + photon overcharge completely kills a largly widow mine based composition, whereas if you have gone marauders you can wait out the photon overcharge and then kill the nexus.
The mass widow mine opening just seems really gimmicky, as you have only 2-3 actual attacking units.
Opening with marauders has really helped my tvp, it stops a TON of cheese. I think the biggest advantage this build has is simply that protoss players don't expect it, and it lets you transition into anything you want with a relatively quick expo safely or at a nice advantage even vs oracle openings.
Been using this build quite a bit. Its pretty fun and its pretty good vs all ins. I decided to post this replay and despite alot of mistakes on my part, I still held.
On October 11 2014 00:20 Usmc0302 wrote: Been using this build quite a bit. Its pretty fun and its pretty good vs all ins. I decided to post this replay and despite alot of mistakes on my part, I still held.
On October 10 2014 03:34 EAGER-beaver wrote: Opening with marauders has really helped my tvp, it stops a TON of cheese. I think the biggest advantage this build has is simply that protoss players don't expect it, and it lets you transition into anything you want with a relatively quick expo safely or at a nice advantage even vs oracle openings.
Thanks Eager-Beaver, I'm glad the build is working well for you!
On a side note, I wanted to mention to all of you the build is going strong! I'm currently 28-2 (93%) in my past 30 games against Protoss (Mid-Masters).
Gotta say, I've been using this build for around 2 months vs Plat and Diamond Toss, and my TvP win rate has gone from 40% to around 75%. It's really a strong, solid build, doesn't require ridiculous micro, and is completely unexpected by most toss.
Solid build, I've been testing it out and so far have 100% win rate. I'm rank 1 diamond playing mid-high masters. You get into some pretty weird situations sometimes but that's what makes it fun haha. Thanks for sharing!
On November 05 2014 05:18 BeefMaster wrote: Gotta say, I've been using this build for around 2 months vs Plat and Diamond Toss, and my TvP win rate has gone from 40% to around 75%. It's really a strong, solid build, doesn't require ridiculous micro, and is completely unexpected by most toss.
On November 10 2014 15:06 Laosing wrote: Solid build, I've been testing it out and so far have 100% win rate. I'm rank 1 diamond playing mid-high masters. You get into some pretty weird situations sometimes but that's what makes it fun haha. Thanks for sharing!
Thanks guys, really nice to hear some successes utilizing the build. All the best going forward!
How's this build even supposed to work besides your opponent messing up? I just faced it on the ladder today. Marauders can't shoot up and your msc can absorb the first widow mine shot np. By the time photon overcharge expires, you have a few stalkers, an obs, and an immortal. In other words, the push is basically over.
When I read this thread for the first time, I thought this was much harder to hold. Generally, I'm pretty damn bad whenever I'm caught off-guard by a wonky strategy, but in this case the hold was a pretty effortless. Perhaps this is more effective if the protoss does a twilight build, although that also means you're probably dead if you don't do pretty significant damage and the protoss goes for a counter attack.
i do very well with builds like this (almost exactly same build, slight difference) in tvp, in high diamond.
however, in pvt, i can defend this build every time, no problem, even unscouted!!... i almost always come out ahead, have never lost to it, one time i got behind but not by much and caught up later.
i dont think the build is very good at all. but its good vs bad players. (or rather, it can beat good players as we've seen, even in mid-masters, but they messed up defending/microing a lot -- so maybe we should say its good vs bad play)
also i think in ALMOST all situations pushing out with 5 marine 2 marauder at 5:10 is far superior to 3 marauder + 1 wm. so i think 2 rax is far better than this build. you can even add fac after the two rax.
you can also go rax fac rax and push with 3 marine 1 marauder 1 wm with 2 rine 1 marauder almost ready.
I have giving up on that build altough very efficient and fun because I prefer another opening in TvP but I recently adapted the concept for the ZvT matchup of a marauder hellbat pressure on 1 base into exp
10 Supply Depot 12 Barracks 13 Refinery 16 Orbital Command Marine x2 -> denying overlords to scout Supply Depot Factory ASAP hidden in your base where cannot be seen easy techlab on rax reactor on fact constant marauder and hellion prod armory when enough gas push when 3-4 marauder and research concussive shells rally hellions to marauders and continue hellion prod but stop marauder. once you hit z base stop hellion prod and expand.
This made me outright win games 50% of the time but also allowed me to do some significant dmg still and transition to macro after that and win. THis can manage decently a wall of spine+ queen due to marauder power.
I have giving up on that build altough very efficient and fun because I prefer another opening in TvP but I recently adapted the concept for the ZvT matchup of a marauder hellbat pressure on 1 base into exp
10 Supply Depot 12 Barracks 13 Refinery 16 Orbital Command Marine x2 -> denying overlords to scout Supply Depot Factory ASAP hidden in your base where cannot be seen easy techlab on rax reactor on fact constant marauder and hellion prod armory when enough gas push when 3-4 marauder and research concussive shells rally hellions to marauders and continue hellion prod but stop marauder. once you hit z base stop hellion prod and expand.
This made me outright win games 50% of the time but also allowed me to do some significant dmg still and transition to macro after that and win. THis can manage decently a wall of spine+ queen due to marauder power.
Sorry to hear the build's not working for you. I'm about 80% right now with it..
I do a VERY similar TvZ build :D What league are you in klup?
I have giving up on that build altough very efficient and fun because I prefer another opening in TvP but I recently adapted the concept for the ZvT matchup of a marauder hellbat pressure on 1 base into exp
10 Supply Depot 12 Barracks 13 Refinery 16 Orbital Command Marine x2 -> denying overlords to scout Supply Depot Factory ASAP hidden in your base where cannot be seen easy techlab on rax reactor on fact constant marauder and hellion prod armory when enough gas push when 3-4 marauder and research concussive shells rally hellions to marauders and continue hellion prod but stop marauder. once you hit z base stop hellion prod and expand.
This made me outright win games 50% of the time but also allowed me to do some significant dmg still and transition to macro after that and win. THis can manage decently a wall of spine+ queen due to marauder power.
Sorry to hear the build's not working for you. I'm about 80% right now with it..
I do a VERY similar TvZ build :D What league are you in klup?
I'm top diamond right now , I dropped master league 1 year ago because of lack of practice. Now I play mainly for fun keeping a good level of play
I love your PvT build and had a ton of fun with it a few month ago but the main reason I'm not using it is that I use a build we made with a friend at the begining of Hots called "3 rax reaper in all MU" designed for platinium/diamond players to use the same opening in all MU that is very aggressive in the early game but cannot kill your opponent unless he has a 0 degree of micro. The build is great because it makes you learn multitask as it is hard to win outright with your early aggression so you are forced to have impecable macro behind your reaper micro and game awarness to transition into 3 base long macro game.
With the ressurgence of old maps with tons of cliff abuse, this kind of BO has returned to full efficience and has never been outdated in TvP anyway( great setup to counter blink allin btw) . Best for TvP, great for TvZ and very hard to pull off in TvT due to current aggressive banshee /1base play meta.
On maps that are not "cliff friendly" like daybreak I will use your build in general as it is very efficient I especially love the 3 stages of aggression :
-mine marauder push -drop -timing push hellbat tank viking
The TvZ version is much more allin though as a perfect defense for Z put you really behind. If you have a version of a hellbat marauder push more macro oriented I can take that :D.
I have giving up on that build altough very efficient and fun because I prefer another opening in TvP but I recently adapted the concept for the ZvT matchup of a marauder hellbat pressure on 1 base into exp
10 Supply Depot 12 Barracks 13 Refinery 16 Orbital Command Marine x2 -> denying overlords to scout Supply Depot Factory ASAP hidden in your base where cannot be seen easy techlab on rax reactor on fact constant marauder and hellion prod armory when enough gas push when 3-4 marauder and research concussive shells rally hellions to marauders and continue hellion prod but stop marauder. once you hit z base stop hellion prod and expand.
This made me outright win games 50% of the time but also allowed me to do some significant dmg still and transition to macro after that and win. THis can manage decently a wall of spine+ queen due to marauder power.
Sorry to hear the build's not working for you. I'm about 80% right now with it..
I do a VERY similar TvZ build :D What league are you in klup?
I'm top diamond right now , I dropped master league 1 year ago because of lack of practice. Now I play mainly for fun keeping a good level of play
I love your PvT build and had a ton of fun with it a few month ago but the main reason I'm not using it is that I use a build we made with a friend at the begining of Hots called "3 rax reaper in all MU" designed for platinium/diamond players to use the same opening in all MU that is very aggressive in the early game but cannot kill your opponent unless he has a 0 degree of micro. The build is great because it makes you learn multitask as it is hard to win outright with your early aggression so you are forced to have impecable macro behind your reaper micro and game awarness to transition into 3 base long macro game.
With the ressurgence of old maps with tons of cliff abuse, this kind of BO has returned to full efficience and has never been outdated in TvP anyway( great setup to counter blink allin btw) . Best for TvP, great for TvZ and very hard to pull off in TvT due to current aggressive banshee /1base play meta.
On maps that are not "cliff friendly" like daybreak I will use your build in general as it is very efficient I especially love the 3 stages of aggression :
-mine marauder push -drop -timing push hellbat tank viking
The TvZ version is much more allin though as a perfect defense for Z put you really behind. If you have a version of a hellbat marauder push more macro oriented I can take that :D.
Awesome! Sounds like you're a thoughtful SC2 player :D If you would like to go over anything specific or hear about my other builds feel free to message me in game Hammer#1909. I have some builds I don't really share, and would be happy to theorycraft with you! Cheers.
I met this build on ladder, from what I've tried out against it I think probes are really good vs the inital pressure for the tosses that are struggling with it. Whenever i see the 3 marauder 1 mine on my natural i bring half my probes to my natural, try to make the mine either unburrow or get off on 1 probe (until i have my obs to pick it off). Chrono an Immortal at the same time as getting 2 gates. Also, try to get a good surround on the marauders. Probes are really damn good vs Marauders without stim.
I met this build on ladder, from what I've tried out against it I think probes are really good vs the inital pressure for the tosses that are struggling with it. Whenever i see the 3 marauder 1 mine on my natural i bring half my probes to my natural, try to make the mine either unburrow or get off on 1 probe (until i have my obs to pick it off). Chrono an Immortal at the same time as getting 2 gates. Also, try to get a good surround on the marauders. Probes are really damn good vs Marauders without stim.
Probes are good against marauders without stim and Conc shells with no micro. If you have conc shells you can micro to do some serious eco damage and macro behind it...
I'm currently 10-0 with this build though my mmr has decayed down to low Diamond / high plat lol so that probably has something to do with it haha.
Edit: All i'm aiming to do is ECO damage when I play this build so I can pull out ahead. If I win a game in the first 6 mins so be it LOL which has happened a couple of times but its definitely not my end game its just a way I get ahead especially if you take a natural....
1) I recently ran into a toss who went Nexus first with cannons at the front. This shut down my initial poke. Then he parked stalkers in his main to deny drops, so I couldn't get anything done with widow mines. By the time I made my big push @ 14 mins, we were on equal supply. I was able to do some damage but not end the game, and he was able to remax faster and come back for the win. Any idea how to adapt the build to play against this style? Should I just double-expand?
2a) What are your thoughts when scouting stargate on planting a widow mine in your mineral line vs ebay+turrets? Seems cheaper and also effective at killing the stargate, although weakens your early push slightly.
2b) In general, how do you react to proxy stargate? Do you go kill the stargate first or just go for the 3-marauder+1-2 mine push?
3) How do you react to the zealot+stalker+msc poke? Or really any fast MSC poke? I usually have only 2 marauders and 1 mine when this hits. The MSC can get a ton of damage done and there doesn't seem to be much I can do to react. If I start making marines, MSC picks them off one at a time. I usually try to make ebay+turrets or chase with mines, but this usually results in econ damage or macro slips for me.
4) Any advice for dealing with 2-base blink stalker all-ins that seem really prevalent in the current map pool?
On December 09 2014 02:59 BeefMaster wrote: Question Time!
1) I recently ran into a toss who went Nexus first with cannons at the front. This shut down my initial poke. Then he parked stalkers in his main to deny drops, so I couldn't get anything done with widow mines. By the time I made my big push @ 14 mins, we were on equal supply. I was able to do some damage but not end the game, and he was able to remax faster and come back for the win. Any idea how to adapt the build to play against this style? Should I just double-expand?
2a) What are your thoughts when scouting stargate on planting a widow mine in your mineral line vs ebay+turrets? Seems cheaper and also effective at killing the stargate, although weakens your early push slightly.
2b) In general, how do you react to proxy stargate? Do you go kill the stargate first or just go for the 3-marauder+1-2 mine push?
3) How do you react to the zealot+stalker+msc poke? Or really any fast MSC poke? I usually have only 2 marauders and 1 mine when this hits. The MSC can get a ton of damage done and there doesn't seem to be much I can do to react. If I start making marines, MSC picks them off one at a time. I usually try to make ebay+turrets or chase with mines, but this usually results in econ damage or macro slips for me.
4) Any advice for dealing with 2-base blink stalker all-ins that seem really prevalent in the current map pool?
i would stop doing this build once you scout nexus first with canon, unless you think they are worse at macro than you and your push can still be successful. you can transition from this opening into 3 base bio and try to keep em on 2 bases as long as possible. since you have the fac you might as well still try to poke with minedrop, if you get in just once its great!
your 2nd rallied WM can go to mineral line as you push out. this works ok but there is a problem, u kill first oracle, but if it is smart it damages all your SCV with the splash. then what if another one comes in and there is no turret? oracles are very good at finding angles so i'd use both turret and mine. also with the turret you can drop 2nd-3rd mine faster.
i would push out and rally 2nd wm to mineral line while getting turret. they will take tons of damage, likely more than you even if your defense is subpar
for 3 i'd listen to hammer, im not actually sure as i haven't faced it much and honestly it does sound a bit tricky to hold...if the P micro is very good. i will say that usually your 2nd wm should be on the way right? or at least started? maybe you make a bunker to buy time if you scout a 10gate/10gas (fast poke)? i dont think 13gate poke will do anything...maybe even pull a few scv to buffer stalker fire from marauders to keep em alive longer vs msc if hes committing to poke. i would not make marines, i'd wait for 2nd WM then his msc is dead. ALSO the counter poke will do hella damage, so you should generally like vsing this build
this build is REALLY good vs blink allins just position your tanks well and have repair scv hotkeyed. make him take severe punishment for blinking in
On December 09 2014 02:59 BeefMaster wrote: Question Time!
1) I recently ran into a toss who went Nexus first with cannons at the front. This shut down my initial poke. Then he parked stalkers in his main to deny drops, so I couldn't get anything done with widow mines. By the time I made my big push @ 14 mins, we were on equal supply. I was able to do some damage but not end the game, and he was able to remax faster and come back for the win. Any idea how to adapt the build to play against this style? Should I just double-expand?
2a) What are your thoughts when scouting stargate on planting a widow mine in your mineral line vs ebay+turrets? Seems cheaper and also effective at killing the stargate, although weakens your early push slightly.
2b) In general, how do you react to proxy stargate? Do you go kill the stargate first or just go for the 3-marauder+1-2 mine push?
3) How do you react to the zealot+stalker+msc poke? Or really any fast MSC poke? I usually have only 2 marauders and 1 mine when this hits. The MSC can get a ton of damage done and there doesn't seem to be much I can do to react. If I start making marines, MSC picks them off one at a time. I usually try to make ebay+turrets or chase with mines, but this usually results in econ damage or macro slips for me.
4) Any advice for dealing with 2-base blink stalker all-ins that seem really prevalent in the current map pool?
i would stop doing this build once you scout nexus first with canon, unless you think they are worse at macro than you and your push can still be successful. you can transition from this opening into 3 base bio and try to keep em on 2 bases as long as possible. since you have the fac you might as well still try to poke with minedrop, if you get in just once its great!
your 2nd rallied WM can go to mineral line as you push out. this works ok but there is a problem, u kill first oracle, but if it is smart it damages all your SCV with the splash. then what if another one comes in and there is no turret? oracles are very good at finding angles so i'd use both turret and mine. also with the turret you can drop 2nd-3rd mine faster.
i would push out and rally 2nd wm to mineral line while getting turret. they will take tons of damage, likely more than you even if your defense is subpar
for 3 i'd listen to hammer, im not actually sure as i haven't faced it much and honestly it does sound a bit tricky to hold...if the P micro is very good. i will say that usually your 2nd wm should be on the way right? or at least started? maybe you make a bunker to buy time if you scout a 10gate/10gas (fast poke)? i dont think 13gate poke will do anything...maybe even pull a few scv to buffer stalker fire from marauders to keep em alive longer vs msc if hes committing to poke. i would not make marines, i'd wait for 2nd WM then his msc is dead. ALSO the counter poke will do hella damage, so you should generally like vsing this build
this build is REALLY good vs blink allins just position your tanks well and have repair scv hotkeyed. make him take severe punishment for blinking in
Thanks for the advice on the early poke. I'll be sure to watch for the 10gate/10gas timing as I usually SCV scout to look for proxy BS.
I think I need to watch some reps for the blink all-in. I suspect I am making widow mines and delaying tanks for too long.
On December 09 2014 02:59 BeefMaster wrote: Question Time!
1) I recently ran into a toss who went Nexus first with cannons at the front. This shut down my initial poke. Then he parked stalkers in his main to deny drops, so I couldn't get anything done with widow mines. By the time I made my big push @ 14 mins, we were on equal supply. I was able to do some damage but not end the game, and he was able to remax faster and come back for the win. Any idea how to adapt the build to play against this style? Should I just double-expand?
2a) What are your thoughts when scouting stargate on planting a widow mine in your mineral line vs ebay+turrets? Seems cheaper and also effective at killing the stargate, although weakens your early push slightly.
2b) In general, how do you react to proxy stargate? Do you go kill the stargate first or just go for the 3-marauder+1-2 mine push?
3) How do you react to the zealot+stalker+msc poke? Or really any fast MSC poke? I usually have only 2 marauders and 1 mine when this hits. The MSC can get a ton of damage done and there doesn't seem to be much I can do to react. If I start making marines, MSC picks them off one at a time. I usually try to make ebay+turrets or chase with mines, but this usually results in econ damage or macro slips for me.
4) Any advice for dealing with 2-base blink stalker all-ins that seem really prevalent in the current map pool?
Hey Beefmaster!
1. I am now doing the initial push more aggressively with 2 marauders 1 wm (others following) and having great success. This would likely hit before opponent has cannons down. If not though, just pull back, get a faster in-base 3rd and macro like a beast. Try drops anyways, but the important thing is to stop building wm/maraud for a few mins to get faster cc's. If you have not been double expanding against 2 base protoss you have been doing the build wrong! Make sure to have 3rd CC in base though.
2a. If you scout stargate, you can absolutely put a wm in min line asap. If you get surprised you can also pull workers, and with the timing there is usually a wm just out or just about to be. Plant it down and "hide" it with the workers. (http://ggtracker.com/matches/5650909).
2b. I continue with initial push and try to get a wm in his min line.
3. Micro. An alternative opening is also 2 marines (12rax/12gas) into maraud/wm; this can help against zsm. You can also have workers auto-rep if msc is in your min line (4-6), while going and doing significant damage to toss.
4. I usually do significant damage to early on against 2base blink, as the units they are producing are weak against the build's opening. When "sensing" based on only seeing stalkers etc, i will put down another rax, and pump marauders, and tanks from the fact, getting subsequent factories when gas avails.
Hope this helps. Feel free to let me know if you have any more questions and/or add me Hammer#1900
I will need to practice this build again and try the early 2 maraudeurs/1WM timing. But I'm worried about not being able to kill MSC that gets freeshots on my maraudeurs.
I will need to practice this build again and try the early 2 maraudeurs/1WM timing. But I'm worried about not being able to kill MSC that gets freeshots on my maraudeurs
It really comes down to micro. Make sure your first widow mine gets a hit on the MSC like AIM it if you have to if the MSC goes to attack your marauders. If he backs up use the Wms to zone the MSC out especially if he has a natural lol. I've had a couple games where I did this and it made the Protoss look really silly hahaha
On December 09 2014 18:02 klup wrote: I will need to practice this build again and try the early 2 maraudeurs/1WM timing. But I'm worried about not being able to kill MSC that gets freeshots on my maraudeurs.
Klup, you can also do an opening with 12 rax 13 gas and get 2 marines, then pump marauder/wm. This is safer against msc pressure! I do it it sometimes with good success :D
I will need to practice this build again and try the early 2 maraudeurs/1WM timing. But I'm worried about not being able to kill MSC that gets freeshots on my maraudeurs
It really comes down to micro. Make sure your first widow mine gets a hit on the MSC like AIM it if you have to if the MSC goes to attack your marauders. If he backs up use the Wms to zone the MSC out especially if he has a natural lol. I've had a couple games where I did this and it made the Protoss look really silly hahaha
I think if the protoss has to tank the widow mine hit, letting the msc absorb the first hit actually benefits the protoss. You get free reign over the marauders until a new widow mine shows up, whereas stalkers and probes straight up die to it. I still don't see what the deal with this build is. I can't say much about other tech choices because I was going robo every time I faced this build, but if you do a robo opening, all you have to do is buy time. As soon as you have an immortal and an observer out, this build is pretty easy to deal with.
It's kind of ironic that this build is supposed to "crush" protosses, when in fact an old school reactor techlab opener (marine marauder), which isn't considered "viable" anymore, is much more dangerous in my experience. I find it hard to believe a good protoss can take considerable damage against this build unless he messes up big time. If anything, the only thing terrans crush when they do this build against me is themselves. lol
+1 to Hammer. This build is amazing. I was on a losing streak in TvP for months now. Somewhere like 22% TvP last season. The opening is so safe against protoss all in!
On December 13 2014 22:18 bhfberserk wrote: +1 to Hammer. This build is amazing. I was on a losing streak in TvP for months now. Somewhere like 22% TvP last season. The opening is so safe against protoss all in!
Excellent! Thanks for the feedback. Let me know if you have questions or need help - hammer#1909
I will note that the Reactor-on-Barracks-switch-to-Factory-for-2-Mines variant is safer against Z/S/MSC on some maps, and is better for actually killing the MSC if that's what you're going for. I'm sure the 2-Marine variant is good as well if you don't want to go for a Reactor'd Factory early on.
December 31, 2014 Important opening update. Please read OP as I have made adjustments to the opening and it is now much stronger against all early Protoss cheese.
On January 01 2015 10:23 Pirfiktshon wrote: I feel like this is a loss bo vs a MSC poke lol i feel like you have a stronger chance to do some damage with the other build lol
The updated opening blows the MSC poke out of the water! Check the changes :D
LOL its funny at first i thought this would weaken the push with the updated BO I use this build religiously but go into bio with good micro and a good read on the protoss I usually force him into something he doesn't want or I do massive damage LOL The 2 Marines make it so when the first mine pops you can set a trap and pick off the MSC which ends the game in less than 8 mins if they expanded lol
Hello, Hammer, Congratulation for your build. I test it and it's really powerfull!!!!! With it i crush platine and diamond player faster (i'm top platine). I'm passionated to the TvP and i write a document on it Name " how to attack protoss" in french. link: http://eu.battle.net/sc2/fr/forum/topic/12206611460 I want to master your BO. I need to have constructive talk with you. See you.
I see all the replay and i have just one question. Why pro-gamer not used your opening? It seems really goooooddd.
In part of your replay, in reality it's your capacity to play mecha well , give you the win. But the opening requires the protoss to do robotic quickly! With that we can play without doubt.
On January 20 2015 05:01 Diamadoshikiller wrote: I see all the replay and i have just one question. Why pro-gamer not used your opening? It seems really goooooddd.
In part of your replay, in reality it's your capacity to play mecha well , give you the win. But the opening requires the protoss to do robotic quickly! With that we can play without doubt.
I'm not sure. I think some players feel it puts them behind, but I think it's better than any late exp plays out there. Would be interesting to see it used in the hands of a pro!
On January 20 2015 05:01 Diamadoshikiller wrote: I see all the replay and i have just one question. Why pro-gamer not used your opening? It seems really goooooddd.
In part of your replay, in reality it's your capacity to play mecha well , give you the win. But the opening requires the protoss to do robotic quickly! With that we can play without doubt.
I'm not sure. I think some players feel it puts them behind, but I think it's better than any late exp plays out there. Would be interesting to see it used in the hands of a pro!
Hello Hammer I'm sure you recognize me. I think the reason pros don't use your build is that is falls off with good control and a standard robo opening from Protoss.
Further a standard bio opener has a faster 3:30 expo and more linearly transitions into bio play, the superior choice vs Protoss for many reasons, including skill ceiling (like Maru or InNo)
Also some oracle openers can hit when you've just left your base and may do significant damage to you before you damage them and a second oracle may deflect your initial push.
I've been playing Terran on my PatchZerg account and I'm currently top 100 diamond NA playing standard so this is my two cents as a Master Zerg player.
On January 20 2015 05:01 Diamadoshikiller wrote: I see all the replay and i have just one question. Why pro-gamer not used your opening? It seems really goooooddd.
In part of your replay, in reality it's your capacity to play mecha well , give you the win. But the opening requires the protoss to do robotic quickly! With that we can play without doubt.
I'm not sure. I think some players feel it puts them behind, but I think it's better than any late exp plays out there. Would be interesting to see it used in the hands of a pro!
Pros don't use it because it isn't viable when you're playing against people who know how to react... which is basically anyone with a brain who has seen it once.
The first time I faced this strategy I blindly held it off with a msc expand into robo with ease. I'm not even in master league. This build is infinitely easier to hold than a reactor techlab, and that says a lot about it since reactor techlab isn't even considered viable anymore.
Hammer just wants to bask in the "awesomeness" of his popularity with newbies - while blatantly ignoring all sorts of criticism, because he knows his build isn't half as good as he claims it to be - instead of admiting any sort of weakness in his build. After all, he advertises that you can have a consistent 70% win rate against high masters and 90% win rate against anything below master league with this build.
According to his claim, I should win no more than 10% of my games against this build, so why do I have a 100% win rate against it? The only thing I've seen my opponents "crush" with this build is their own economy.
well in my experience, it is possible to mark 90% win rate below master league. i have not seen any protoss player i met in KR server defend this pretty well. Sometimes i cannot crush the opponent by the first rush but i can take the domination of the game by proper harassment like 3 maruder 1 mine drop or 2 mines each on main and natural... It depends on the situation anyway.
I think this build is not perfect and has some weekness, but it is a nice counter against the recent trends of protoss metagame that begin with msc first nexus and have small amount of army. So I think you don't need to be so sarcastic. It works for ladder at least.
If you mean platinum or lower (seriously? lol c'mon), maybe yes since these guys don't even have a build order. Diamond players who have a standard build order and know what they're doing shouldn't have any problem with this strategy though, let alone master protosses.
Once again, this strategy doesn't really do any better than a reactor techlab opener. And it doesn't "counter" the popular msc expand at all. How can you even call it a "counter" when the protoss just has to (1) use photon overcharge to buy time, (2) make an observer, and then finally (3) make an immortal to end the push?
The rest is just the protoss deflecting a widow mine drop (or failing to do so) that could have been done after opening reaper expand as well. But in this case, you pretty much have to do something like this to compensate for your build order of choice, which more often than not is just going to "crush" your own economy up until this point.
It's more like the numbers are the exact opposite - I'd be shocked to see a high master protoss who knows this build is coming not be in a more advantageous position than he'd be against reaper expand at least 70% of the times.
yeah maybe your region is more competitive than KR so people know well how to deal with lol
you said this build has no advantage than reactor techlab but i should point out that protoss should make observer first because they saw widow mines and because of this terran has a timing window to push upto the ramp with proper control. Terran should exchange army economically.
What about Oracle? The presence of widow mine allows Terran can hold it while the other army are pushIng against Protoss economy.
Protoss also knows the opponent went factory very early so if the first push is executed properly they would invest more static defense or scouting observer, blahblah.
Additionally, you can check what kind of units the opponent are preparing by the medivac harassment motion. Reactor techlab 2 rax cannot see without scanning.
Finally, 2 rax reactor-techlab invest so much resources early for barracks tech so it is hard to transit into mech. This build can.
All bo have pros and cons. There is no useless build order if it is optimized well and committed by well-unstanding brain. You have not won by a build order? I think it is not problem of bo. I know a KR GM who start from training 6 reapers in a row. In common sense, it is ridiculous bo and be thought not viable. However he knows very well about the possible decisions his opponent can make, and knows how to deal with them efficient. Even a progamer who plays in proleague conceded the bo may be viable in progaming scene. Maybe you can recall now about the mass reaper game from proleague.
well, long words, anyway.
I don't think this bo is also viable among progamers. However, I think this is enough to win against diamonds with 90% rate. I guess you just hate the original author personally, But actually it is not hard for Terrans to win against a diamond Protoss regardless of bo, is it? lol
On January 20 2015 05:01 Diamadoshikiller wrote: I see all the replay and i have just one question. Why pro-gamer not used your opening? It seems really goooooddd.
In part of your replay, in reality it's your capacity to play mecha well , give you the win. But the opening requires the protoss to do robotic quickly! With that we can play without doubt.
I'm not sure. I think some players feel it puts them behind, but I think it's better than any late exp plays out there. Would be interesting to see it used in the hands of a pro!
Pros don't use it because it isn't viable when you're playing against people who know how to react... which is basically anyone with a brain who has seen it once.
According to his claim, I should win no more than 10% of my games against this build, so why do I have a 100% win rate against it? The only thing I've seen my opponents "crush" with this build is their own economy.
Because you don't. To be honest it sounds like you're desperately trying to make yourself feel good about yourself. Bring some replays if you're going to critique.
On January 20 2015 05:01 Diamadoshikiller wrote: I see all the replay and i have just one question. Why pro-gamer not used your opening? It seems really goooooddd.
In part of your replay, in reality it's your capacity to play mecha well , give you the win. But the opening requires the protoss to do robotic quickly! With that we can play without doubt.
I'm not sure. I think some players feel it puts them behind, but I think it's better than any late exp plays out there. Would be interesting to see it used in the hands of a pro!
Pros don't use it because it isn't viable when you're playing against people who know how to react... which is basically anyone with a brain who has seen it once.
According to his claim, I should win no more than 10% of my games against this build, so why do I have a 100% win rate against it? The only thing I've seen my opponents "crush" with this build is their own economy.
Because you don't. To be honest it sounds like you're desperately trying to make yourself feel good about yourself. Bring some replays if you're going to critique.
Your pitiful ad hominem won't change my numbers. Instead, you should stop being delusional and ask yourself why Hammer hasn't properly replied to SatedSC2's detailed post on how he wrecks this strategy.
On January 20 2015 05:01 Diamadoshikiller wrote: I see all the replay and i have just one question. Why pro-gamer not used your opening? It seems really goooooddd.
In part of your replay, in reality it's your capacity to play mecha well , give you the win. But the opening requires the protoss to do robotic quickly! With that we can play without doubt.
I'm not sure. I think some players feel it puts them behind, but I think it's better than any late exp plays out there. Would be interesting to see it used in the hands of a pro!
Pros don't use it because it isn't viable when you're playing against people who know how to react... which is basically anyone with a brain who has seen it once.
According to his claim, I should win no more than 10% of my games against this build, so why do I have a 100% win rate against it? The only thing I've seen my opponents "crush" with this build is their own economy.
Because you don't. To be honest it sounds like you're desperately trying to make yourself feel good about yourself. Bring some replays if you're going to critique.
Your pitiful ad hominem won't change my numbers. Instead, you should stop being delusional and ask yourself why Hammer hasn't properly replied to SatedSC2's detailed post on how he wrecks this strategy.
Your hardon for this build cracks me up. If you don't think it works, why do you care so much? If you're not Terran, why do you care so much? You've been posting here for months, kind of sad. Let's play some practice games, you can post how easily you beat me after Hammer.1928
If you were concerned about improving your build, you'd openly accept criticism. That's what people do in science - you come up with a hypothesis and ask other people to find holes and flaws in it. The harsher the criticism, the more reliable your hypothesis becomes.
Instead, you blatantly decided to ignore everything that's been said up until now, and now you're trying to get even more attention with a grudge match. Shouldn't you be humbler and tell your fans how to deal with what SatedSC2 mentioned first? But wait, why do that when it's easier to cherry-pick criticism and ask for a grudge with a lower league player? The truth is, whether you beat me or not is unrelated to how players at my level failed to beat me with this build - when in fact, they should be able to win about 90% of their games consistently according to you.
On January 20 2015 05:01 Diamadoshikiller wrote: I see all the replay and i have just one question. Why pro-gamer not used your opening? It seems really goooooddd.
In part of your replay, in reality it's your capacity to play mecha well , give you the win. But the opening requires the protoss to do robotic quickly! With that we can play without doubt.
I'm not sure. I think some players feel it puts them behind, but I think it's better than any late exp plays out there. Would be interesting to see it used in the hands of a pro!
Pros don't use it because it isn't viable when you're playing against people who know how to react... which is basically anyone with a brain who has seen it once.
According to his claim, I should win no more than 10% of my games against this build, so why do I have a 100% win rate against it? The only thing I've seen my opponents "crush" with this build is their own economy.
Because you don't. To be honest it sounds like you're desperately trying to make yourself feel good about yourself. Bring some replays if you're going to critique.
Your pitiful ad hominem won't change my numbers. Instead, you should stop being delusional and ask yourself why Hammer hasn't properly replied to SatedSC2's detailed post on how he wrecks this strategy.
Your hardon for this build cracks me up. If you don't think it works, why do you care so much? If you're not Terran, why do you care so much? You've been posting here for months, kind of sad. Let's play some practice games, you can post how easily you beat me after Hammer.1928
He probably loses against it a lot and needs to validate himself by angrily posting in here and pretending he has a 90% winrate. It doesn't make sense for him to constantly come in here without any replays.
On January 20 2015 05:01 Diamadoshikiller wrote: I see all the replay and i have just one question. Why pro-gamer not used your opening? It seems really goooooddd.
In part of your replay, in reality it's your capacity to play mecha well , give you the win. But the opening requires the protoss to do robotic quickly! With that we can play without doubt.
I'm not sure. I think some players feel it puts them behind, but I think it's better than any late exp plays out there. Would be interesting to see it used in the hands of a pro!
Pros don't use it because it isn't viable when you're playing against people who know how to react... which is basically anyone with a brain who has seen it once.
According to his claim, I should win no more than 10% of my games against this build, so why do I have a 100% win rate against it? The only thing I've seen my opponents "crush" with this build is their own economy.
Because you don't. To be honest it sounds like you're desperately trying to make yourself feel good about yourself. Bring some replays if you're going to critique.
Your pitiful ad hominem won't change my numbers. Instead, you should stop being delusional and ask yourself why Hammer hasn't properly replied to SatedSC2's detailed post on how he wrecks this strategy.
Your hardon for this build cracks me up. If you don't think it works, why do you care so much? If you're not Terran, why do you care so much? You've been posting here for months, kind of sad. Let's play some practice games, you can post how easily you beat me after Hammer.1928
He probably loses against it a lot and needs to validate himself by angrily posting in here and pretending he has a 90% winrate. It doesn't make sense for him to constantly come in here without any replays.
In your dreams. Why would I ever need to post a replay anyway? What makes you believe I should be willing to go through hundreds of replays in search of something I hardly ever face, just to post a couple of replays that literally nobody is going to bother watching? That assumption is devoid of any logic whatsoever.
I don't have to prove anything to you. If anything, Hammer is the one who has something to prove, since he's the one wrote the OP and claims that this strategy can be consistenly more successful than anything standard.
Also, just for the record, I never said I have a 90% win-rate against this strategy - it's actually 100%. That number could obviously go down if I played someone much better than me, but that doesn't change the fact that Hammer's claim - that lower league players should be able to win 90% of their games consistenly - doesn't hold true at all against me.
On January 20 2015 05:01 Diamadoshikiller wrote: I see all the replay and i have just one question. Why pro-gamer not used your opening? It seems really goooooddd.
In part of your replay, in reality it's your capacity to play mecha well , give you the win. But the opening requires the protoss to do robotic quickly! With that we can play without doubt.
I'm not sure. I think some players feel it puts them behind, but I think it's better than any late exp plays out there. Would be interesting to see it used in the hands of a pro!
Pros don't use it because it isn't viable when you're playing against people who know how to react... which is basically anyone with a brain who has seen it once.
According to his claim, I should win no more than 10% of my games against this build, so why do I have a 100% win rate against it? The only thing I've seen my opponents "crush" with this build is their own economy.
Because you don't. To be honest it sounds like you're desperately trying to make yourself feel good about yourself. Bring some replays if you're going to critique.
Your pitiful ad hominem won't change my numbers. Instead, you should stop being delusional and ask yourself why Hammer hasn't properly replied to SatedSC2's detailed post on how he wrecks this strategy.
Your hardon for this build cracks me up. If you don't think it works, why do you care so much? If you're not Terran, why do you care so much? You've been posting here for months, kind of sad. Let's play some practice games, you can post how easily you beat me after Hammer.1928
He probably loses against it a lot and needs to validate himself by angrily posting in here and pretending he has a 90% winrate. It doesn't make sense for him to constantly come in here without any replays.
In your dreams. Why would I ever need to post a replay anyway? What makes you believe I should be willing to go through hundreds of replays in search of something I hardly ever face, just to post a couple of replays that literally nobody is going to bother watching? That assumption is devoid of any logic whatsoever.
I don't have to prove anything to you. If anything, Hammer is the one who has something to prove, since he's the one wrote the OP and claims that this strategy can be consistenly more successful than anything standard.
Also, just for the record, I never said I have a 90% win-rate against this strategy - it's actually 100%. That number could obviously go down if I played someone much better than me, but that doesn't change the fact that Hammer's claim - that lower league players should be able to win 90% of their games consistenly - doesn't hold true at all against me.
Vhapter, this build is OverPowered and i've beaten ~70% of protoss players i face with it in platinum league. It certainly works in lower leagues, and if you master this build it would definitely beat the vast majority of protoss players out there in diamond league. You may not be the vast majority, but this shit works on most people.
Like I said before, this build probably works really well against anyone who doesn't have a build. You should be able to outright kill a lot of clueless players with it, yeah. That doesn't mean much though, since you'd be just as successful - if not even more - by going reactor techlab. But if you go up against someone in diamond league who knows how to play standard, the likelihood of you actually getting an edge in economy isn't high... especially not to the point you'd get a consistent 90% win rate, or even worse, 70% at high master level. I'm far from being high masters and this build doesn't work on me at all at my level. So how am I suppose to believe someone can win 70% of their games with this build against players that outclass me by far? There's just no way.
While this may be a bit off-topic, keep in mind that I'm no stranger to dirty strategies. My win rate on Habitation Station is 74% and I pretty much only played dirty on it - my PvP was double gas steal into proxy voidrays, my PvT was denying reaper scouting while going 5 gate all in (hiding gates on the bottom of the map), and my PvZ was gateway expand at the gold base into a massive immortal zealot push.
@ Hammer Oh man, how can people like this even get into master league? lol...
Please take a look at the very first reply you've posted recently. This guy's msc comes out 25 second late (4:30) and had no simcity against reapers. That is enough for a simple reaper opener ravage his mineral line. He proceed to build his robo before even his third pylon. You're supposed to build your third pylon right at 4 minutes or so. This guy built it a full minute later (5:00). This guy was just playing by instinct and killing his own economy...
He had 29 probes when he should've had 44 at 7:50, which is understandable if you're panicking... except he wasn't even under attack and still cut probes because he decided to go up to 3 gates and refused to build immortals. That's too many mistakes to ignore.
On February 02 2015 09:53 vhapter wrote: Oh man, how can people like this even get into master league?
Well they do play Protoss.
Though in all seriousness if they're in Masters and GM they're clearly significantly better than a player like you in diamond. Perhaps you should stop critiquing players 2 leagues above you and rightfully know your place in respect to their skill? If you think this build is flawed to the point where decent Protosses should have a 100% winrate vs it then post some replays and lets see your 100% winrate you keep harping about.
On February 02 2015 09:53 vhapter wrote: Oh man, how can people like this even get into master league?
Well they do play Protoss.
Though in all seriousness if they're in Masters and GM they're clearly significantly better than a player like you in diamond. Perhaps you should stop critiquing players 2 leagues above you and rightfully know your place in respect to their skill? If you think this build is flawed to the point where decent Protosses should have a 100% winrate vs it then post some replays and lets see your 100% winrate you keep harping about.
Well, if you watch the replays carefully, many players make mistakes or misplace their units to being with. I don't care if you're in master league, if your msc comes out at 4:30 and you don't even simcity the back of your mineral line to deal with reapers, your early game is really bad. This is so bad - 20-25 seconds for a reaper to slaughter your mineral line - that if this guy had been facing a reaper expand, he would have lost more probes with his sloppy opener than I would have if I'd gone nexus first. So contrary to what you think, I am clearly significantly better than this player when it comes to my PvT opener, not the other way around. Whether he's better at other things or perhaps got promoted just because he played more games than me is another issue entirely.
There's one GM protoss in the replays who had both his stalker and msc at his ramp on Vaani and his msc got sniped. Leaving your msc at your ramp is pretty dangerous (safest place = between both your main and natural) and that sort of mistake can't be overlooked when you analyze the effectiveness of a strategy. There was another GM guy who took some unnecessary damage at his natural because his msc was very close to his main nexus, so once again, we see arguably poor msc placement. What I'm trying to say is that for this opener to do actual damage, it seems to require the protoss player to mess something up.
All in all, I'm not saying you can't possibly win a game with this opener, but that doesn't make the opener itself good. The 4 widow mine drop idea is particularly dangerous if you don't have good map vision or minimap awareness, although it's also a bit of a gamble. But what makes this build different is the initial marauder widow mine attack and how much that delays your expansion... the rest is just a follow up. So once again, losing in the mid-late game to someone who opened marauder widow mine doesn't mean the opener itself was successful. What determines how successful the build was is how much damage you managed to do, not how you were able to outplay your opponent for the rest of the game.
On February 02 2015 09:53 vhapter wrote: Oh man, how can people like this even get into master league?
Well they do play Protoss.
Though in all seriousness if they're in Masters and GM they're clearly significantly better than a player like you in diamond. Perhaps you should stop critiquing players 2 leagues above you and rightfully know your place in respect to their skill? If you think this build is flawed to the point where decent Protosses should have a 100% winrate vs it then post some replays and lets see your 100% winrate you keep harping about.
Well, if you watch the replays carefully, many players make mistakes or misplace their units to being with. I don't care if you're in master league, if your msc comes out at 4:30 and you don't even simcity the back of your mineral line to deal with reapers, your early game is really bad. This is so bad - 20-25 seconds for a reaper to slaughter your mineral line - that if this guy had been facing a reaper expand, he would have lost more probes with his sloppy opener than I would have if I'd gone nexus first.
There's one GM protoss in the replays who had both his stalker and msc at his ramp on Vaani and his msc got sniped. Leaving your msc at your ramp is pretty dangerous (safest place = between both your main and natural) and that sort of mistake can't be overlooked when you analyze the effectiveness of a strategy. There was another GM guy who took some unnecessary damage at his natural because his msc was very close to his main nexus, which is also due to his msc placement.
All in all, I'm not saying you can't possibly win a game with this opener, but that doesn't make the opener itself good. The 4 widow mine drop idea is particularly dangerous if you don't have good map vision or minimap awareness, although it's also a bit of a gamble. But what makes this build different is the initial marauder widow mine attack and how much that delays your expansion... the rest is just a follow up. So once again, losing in the mid-late game to someone who opened marauder widow mine doesn't mean the opener itself was successful. What determines how successful the build was is how much damage you managed to do, not how you were able to outplay your opponent for the rest of the game.
I speak from 100's of games of experience, you speak out your ass Theorycrafting is fun hey!
Talk is cheap, lets play. Hammer#1928. I'm on right now.
How is doing a build order properly, having good base layout, and placing your msc in a safe spot theorycrafting? That's experience - things that I always do in my games. Don't be delusional.
If terrans couldn't see their opponents' league, which player would they think is better - (1) a guy who doesn't have an anti-reaper simcity and whose msc only comes out at 4:30, or (2) someone who has proper base layout and a properly timed msc? That's like the bread and butter of protoss in PvT.
On February 02 2015 12:53 vhapter wrote: How is doing a build order properly, having good base layout, and placing your msc in a safe spot theorycrafting? That's experience - things that I always do in my games. Don't be delusional.
If terrans couldn't see their opponents' league, which player would they think is better - (1) a guy who doesn't have an anti-reaper simcity and whose msc only comes out at 4:30, or (2) someone who has proper base layout and a properly timed msc? That's like the bread and butter of protoss in PvT.
Hammer I like you and you're a nice guy and I don't particularly agree with the presentation of the counterarguments, but I do have to disagree with you.
Your build is more of a one hit wonder to me and is in my opinion, less viable and holds less longevity throughout the game compared to the more standard:
Reaper FE into 3 rax which can stop oracles and gives you a fast core army 1/1/1 mine drops that Koreans are starting to favor
Both these builds give great aggressive options, smooth transitions, and get your natural down at 3:25 while being safe.
Mine drops, IMO, can be integrated into any build and your massive mech push can be put akin to the more powerful SCV pulls.
IMO we should stop jerking on everything that is non viable at "pro level". In dota 2 tons of players play on regular basis with heroes and builds that are not viable at "pro level" and nobody go jerking on their face (except the really idiotic ones).
The attitude of this community towards alternative openings that derail from the sacro-saint reaper expand is really boring. If alternative build works it is because people are not used to it. Throwing off your opponent with weird build might disorient players that play a by the book ultra boring SC2 and can't adapt . It is a legit strategy and it's not an allin if not designed to.
I wish there is more people experimenting builds on ladder especially terrans and zergs. Protoss has already the great book of protoss bullshit and co to provide a lot of fun/weird builds. When you experimenting you ask yourself the right questions like is my build weak to that or this strategy? How can I improve it to make it more Xstrategy proof etc.
The most boring matchups in terms of innovations are TvP and TvZ on the terran side. There is like 2-3 builds that are small variant of each other that compete in higher ranks.
Anyway go ahead guys continue trashing everything that is not Pro-approved so we can all enjoy the wonderful ladder filled with robotic-players that can execute properly a BO they learn by hearth.
I will still go try Hammer, HTOmario builds because they are good enough to ladder with a well thought game plan from early to late game. That is all I need. I maintain top diamond low master depending on my frequency of play with 100 apm for a terran which is low just because I force myself to never play "standard".
And about the "your opponents makes mistakes". Yes he will because he is thrown off gard that's the point ! Maru just lost a final because he didn't walled his expand. Tell me more about how GM players don't make mistakes
On January 20 2015 05:01 Diamadoshikiller wrote: I see all the replay and i have just one question. Why pro-gamer not used your opening? It seems really goooooddd.
In part of your replay, in reality it's your capacity to play mecha well , give you the win. But the opening requires the protoss to do robotic quickly! With that we can play without doubt.
I'm not sure. I think some players feel it puts them behind, but I think it's better than any late exp plays out there. Would be interesting to see it used in the hands of a pro!
Pros don't use it because it isn't viable when you're playing against people who know how to react... which is basically anyone with a brain who has seen it once.
According to his claim, I should win no more than 10% of my games against this build, so why do I have a 100% win rate against it? The only thing I've seen my opponents "crush" with this build is their own economy.
Because you don't. To be honest it sounds like you're desperately trying to make yourself feel good about yourself. Bring some replays if you're going to critique.
Your pitiful ad hominem won't change my numbers. Instead, you should stop being delusional and ask yourself why Hammer hasn't properly replied to SatedSC2's detailed post on how he wrecks this strategy.
Your hardon for this build cracks me up. If you don't think it works, why do you care so much? If you're not Terran, why do you care so much? You've been posting here for months, kind of sad. Let's play some practice games, you can post how easily you beat me after Hammer.1928
He probably loses against it a lot and needs to validate himself by angrily posting in here and pretending he has a 90% winrate. It doesn't make sense for him to constantly come in here without any replays.
In your dreams. Why would I ever need to post a replay anyway? What makes you believe I should be willing to go through hundreds of replays in search of something I hardly ever face, just to post a couple of replays that literally nobody is going to bother watching? That assumption is devoid of any logic whatsoever.
I don't have to prove anything to you. If anything, Hammer is the one who has something to prove, since he's the one wrote the OP and claims that this strategy can be consistenly more successful than anything standard.
Also, just for the record, I never said I have a 90% win-rate against this strategy - it's actually 100%. That number could obviously go down if I played someone much better than me, but that doesn't change the fact that Hammer's claim - that lower league players should be able to win 90% of their games consistenly - doesn't hold true at all against me.
Less talk more action..... he challenged you don't dodge.....
Hammer post the REP too we want to see how well this does against someone who knows its coming from the start to see the "correct" way to play Protoss lol
On February 03 2015 00:29 SatedSC2 wrote: If you know it's coming from the start then you just open 2 Gate Robo and take the free-win. It's pointless to test a cheesy opening by playing people who know it is coming because that defeats the whole point of a cheese...
I agree it's like saying you will face a fake twilight blink into a dt proxy expand. You just build a turret at front of your expo and collect a freewin. This build might be strong because hard to scout at the moment where you have to choose a tech path. Imo this aggression is very hard to scout for a protoss especially if you use the build with 1-2 marines before. Hammer is basically going to sucide on this challenge no matter what.
This is true for most popular build as well. if you are 100% sure you are facing a type of build it is very easy to win as you can adapt and pick a greedy/cheesy opening that is a direct counter to the build you face so it's pointless.
Ladder wins is a good indicator of success of a build for ladder. This guide is not destined to MMA or Taeja it is destined for us ladder player.
I wouldn't call hammer build a "cheese" it's an early aggression like WM drop in TvP or a 3 reaper/hellion/banshee in TvZ if it doesn't suceed you are not dead but it has to get dommage done to be on par with your opponent. A cheese is a one trick pony, if you fail you will 99% loose vs an opponent with the same skill.
Since you guys want replays so much, here is a replay of a terran who lost more resources during the push than I did, not to mention the fact that his expansion is inevitably later than mine. In other words, the push failed to do enough damage. Whatever the terran does later can be also done with a more standard build that won't put you behind in both units lost and economy.
On January 20 2015 05:01 Diamadoshikiller wrote: I see all the replay and i have just one question. Why pro-gamer not used your opening? It seems really goooooddd.
In part of your replay, in reality it's your capacity to play mecha well , give you the win. But the opening requires the protoss to do robotic quickly! With that we can play without doubt.
I'm not sure. I think some players feel it puts them behind, but I think it's better than any late exp plays out there. Would be interesting to see it used in the hands of a pro!
Pros don't use it because it isn't viable when you're playing against people who know how to react... which is basically anyone with a brain who has seen it once.
According to his claim, I should win no more than 10% of my games against this build, so why do I have a 100% win rate against it? The only thing I've seen my opponents "crush" with this build is their own economy.
Because you don't. To be honest it sounds like you're desperately trying to make yourself feel good about yourself. Bring some replays if you're going to critique.
Your pitiful ad hominem won't change my numbers. Instead, you should stop being delusional and ask yourself why Hammer hasn't properly replied to SatedSC2's detailed post on how he wrecks this strategy.
Your hardon for this build cracks me up. If you don't think it works, why do you care so much? If you're not Terran, why do you care so much? You've been posting here for months, kind of sad. Let's play some practice games, you can post how easily you beat me after Hammer.1928
He probably loses against it a lot and needs to validate himself by angrily posting in here and pretending he has a 90% winrate. It doesn't make sense for him to constantly come in here without any replays.
In your dreams. Why would I ever need to post a replay anyway? What makes you believe I should be willing to go through hundreds of replays in search of something I hardly ever face, just to post a couple of replays that literally nobody is going to bother watching? That assumption is devoid of any logic whatsoever.
I don't have to prove anything to you. If anything, Hammer is the one who has something to prove, since he's the one wrote the OP and claims that this strategy can be consistenly more successful than anything standard.
Also, just for the record, I never said I have a 90% win-rate against this strategy - it's actually 100%. That number could obviously go down if I played someone much better than me, but that doesn't change the fact that Hammer's claim - that lower league players should be able to win 90% of their games consistenly - doesn't hold true at all against me.
Less talk more action..... he challenged you don't dodge.....
Hammer post the REP too we want to see how well this does against someone who knows its coming from the start to see the "correct" way to play Protoss lol
Learn some proper grammar before you try to bait other people. This is painful to read.
Less talk more action..... he challenged you don't dodge.....
Hammer post the REP too we want to see how well this does against someone who knows its coming from the start to see the "correct" way to play Protoss lol
Learn some proper grammar before you try to bait other people. This is painful to read.
Someone has a tight anus.....Still more trash talk and no action... you have to play Hammer to prove your point...
Less talk more action..... he challenged you don't dodge.....
Hammer post the REP too we want to see how well this does against someone who knows its coming from the start to see the "correct" way to play Protoss lol
Learn some proper grammar before you try to bait other people. This is painful to read.
Someone has a tight anus.....Still more trash talk and no action... you have to play Hammer to prove your point...
Are you blind or did you decided to pretend you didn't see the replay - where I get both a faster expansion and lose less resources than my opponent during the marauder widow push - I just posted?
Are you blind or did you decided to pretend you didn't see the replay - where I get both a faster expansion and lose less resources than my opponent during the marauder widow push - I just posted?
LOL did you see what I just posted I don't care about some no name it HAS to be Hammer or Nothing ......
Are you blind or did you decided to pretend you didn't see the replay - where I get both a faster expansion and lose less resources than my opponent during the marauder widow push - I just posted?
LOL did you see what I just posted I don't care about some no name it HAS to be Hammer or Nothing ......
I don't care about your Hammer complex either, illiterate boy. My criticism is backed up by evidence - if you don't like it, go "test" it against him youself. That's your problem, not mine.
Also, Hammer is a no name just like everyone else in this thread. People know him for his guide as much as other players know me for helping them in the Protoss Help Me thread.
Are you blind or did you decided to pretend you didn't see the replay - where I get both a faster expansion and lose less resources than my opponent during the marauder widow push - I just posted?
LOL did you see what I just posted I don't care about some no name it HAS to be Hammer or Nothing ......
I don't care about your Hammer complex either, illiterate boy. My criticism is backed up by evidence - if you don't like it, go "test" it against him youself. That's your problem, not mine.
Also, Hammer is a no name just like everyone else in this thread. People know him for his guide as much as other players know me for helping them in the Protoss Help Me thread.
You're so salty, it's really funny. You still haven't messaged me to play? Waiting...
What's funny? I've given you much more legitimate feedback than any of the people who come here to say they liked the strategy. What's funny is the fact that you reply to everyone who doesn't have any criticism, but you refuse to take my feedback seriously.
Feedback on guides: A guide is always evolving as the game is being more and more understood and as people find counter strategies. As the author it is your job to keep the guide up to date. If other players find weaknesses or suggest changes to the build, it is your job to alter it accordingly.If you disagree, fall back to Rule No 1: Post a replay or some other form of proof that the criticism isn’t valid.
Rule No 1: Everything you say must be supported by evidence.
I've already found a weakness - the very fact that the opener only put my opponent behind. Considering how many games you've played, it should be easy to find one where your opponent opens with a msc expand into robo, doesn't mess up his build or unit positioning, and still loses more resources than you. Not accomplishing that would be a failure as your expansion goes up much later.
Providing counterproof is your burden, not mine. Instead of asking for a grudge match, you should be thankful that someone not only gave you legitimate feedback, but even went through the trouble to look for a replay. And your claim that this build is enough to have a consistent 90% win rate in lower leagues is still unsupported.
I've already found a weakness - the very fact that the opener only put my opponent behind. Considering how many games you've played, it should be easy to find one where your opponent opens with a msc expand into robo, doesn't mess up his build or unit positioning, and still loses more resources than you. Not accomplishing that would be a failure as your expansion goes up much later.
Providing counterproof is your burden, not mine. Instead of asking for a grudge match, you should be thankful that someone not only gave you legitimate feedback, but even went through the trouble to look for a replay. And your claim that this build is enough to have a consistent 90% win rate in lower leagues is still unsupported.
You found theoretical weakness... you wouldn't tell maru his build is weak and needs to refine it because some diamond player that was using it lost would you? Either play him and post rep or stop posting here and crawl back under your bridge troll....
Oh man I just watched that rep... that guy was plat and the other thing is he had you beat and didn't realize it.... 2 times at LEAST! 2 times..... Not to mention he didn't even use the most up to date build. Honestly if that was me you wouldn' thave gotten past the 8 minute mark without me all over your base.... let alone hammer hahaha You should crawl back in your whole because that rep was laughable as a demonstration of possible weakness....
On February 03 2015 13:39 Pirfiktshon wrote: Oh man I just watched that rep... that guy was plat and the other thing is he had you beat and didn't realize it.... 2 times at LEAST! 2 times..... Not to mention he didn't even use the most up to date build. Honestly if that was me you wouldn' thave gotten past the 8 minute mark without me all over your base.... let alone hammer hahaha You should crawl back in your whole because that rep was laughable as a demonstration of possible weakness....
Sigh. You're acting as if proof that this build is quite easy to counter wasn't already posted. This was almost a year ago:
On April 07 2014 17:53 SatedSC2 wrote: This isn't a good/stable opening because it's very easy to deflect the initial pressure and then crush through the timing-attack once you know the proper response. I have nothing against cheese builds, and this will definitely work very well against people who haven't seen it before or who don't manage to scout that it's coming, but acting as if this is a good/stable opening is disingenuous.
Are you writing this based on experience or theory? I have used this build many times, and as previously mentioned, even if direct damage is not accomplished, indirect damage to Protoss economy is. Protoss needs to use chrono on army, engage at a time they would rather be focusing on macro, and so on. My numbers speak for themselves, your feedback is just conjecture.
Experience.
I've made several posts in this thread that explain why you're wrong to assume that the "indirect damage" you deal makes up for how non-economic this opening is. I've even made a post detailing what is 100% the correct response, and that response does not involve the Protoss chronoboosting anything other than Probes. I've played against this build on more than one occasion and the only time I lost was the very first time I faced it, which is also the only time I didn't respond using the response I detailed in this thread.
Below is a screenshot to prove that I've both faced and beaten this build, although I unfortunately no longer have the replay. This game was played on the NA server - which isn't my normal server - and was against an unranked opponent who has previously placed in the Masters league. There are others, but I can't be bothered searching through my NA match history to find them; I also find it interesting how I've only ever seen this opening being used on NA...
My response in this game was exactly the response that I've posted in this thread. I opened with a 1 Gate FE (13 Gate, 14 Gas, 15 Pylon, 18 Zealot, 20 Cybernetics Core, 22 Cut Probes, 22 Nexus, 22 MSC) and followed that up with a quick Forge. This is a variation of the standard 1 Gate FE that I learnt from TAiLS, but I don't see any reason why my response wouldn't work if the Protoss went for a more standard 1 Gate FE and followed that up with a quick Forge. As soon as the Forge finished, I threw down two Cannons at my natural and a third Cannon in my main mineral line. This might seem like a large number of Cannons, but this particular opening normally gets a Cannon in each mineral line anyway since it has no other way of deflecting Widow Mine drops. This essentially means that this Terran did a whopping 150 minerals of "indirect damage" to me. Through a combination of the Cannons and Photon Overcharge, I took absolutely no damage from the initial pressure even though I was chronoboosting Probes the whole damn time.
If I remember correctly, I then went on to do an 8 Gate +2 Armour Chargelot/Archon timing-attack to win the game, which would make sense given that's the exact all-in TAiLS was refining when I copied this build off him. It's also a timing-attack that hits before your "mid-game" Widow Mine drop (based on the screenshots in the OP), which I find hilarious because it means that I managed to hit a full-strength timing-attack before your build was even half-way done...
EDIT:
As much as I love cheesy builds and timing-attacks, pretending that a combination of the two represents solid-play is completely ludicrous.
Hammer completely dodged offering an explanation for how his build could deal with the response outlined in my post so I don't expect him to do so now. Not that I have anything against this build because I happen to know a lot about using bullshit builds to get wins on the ladder. Because of this, I feel like I can tell whether or not a build is legitimately "good" or just something that works because nobody sees it enough to know the proper response.
I don't doubt that Hammer has a high win-rate with this build, but I have a high win-rate #PrayingToInCa and you don't see me pretending that it is a be-all-end-all standard build that will win all the damn time. SC2 isn't that simple. Gimmicky builds wouldn't work if everyone used them and that's why they don't, so something working on ladder doesn't mean it's a "good" build. It's just that gimmick/cheese happens to be fucking amazing in SC2 when the opponent doesn't scout it or doesn't respond perfectly.
This argument is stupid. If you think that Hammer's build is anything other than a gimmicky ladder build that gets a high win-rate because it doesn't make sense then you're wholly incorrect. I should know because my Double-Triple-Double doesn't make sense either and people using it have gotten an 80% win-rate with it, but it's not a "good" build. It's a stupid build that happens to work.
EDIT:
Just to be perfectly clear:
High Win-Rates ≠ "Good" Builds
On the build
While I agree with some of your points, your build with 3 cannons is a little bit weird and uncommon (never seen in EU server ever). The question is would you go for this weird 3 cannon build everytime you see someone build marines instead of reaper from terran. I feel that the legitimacy of an aggressive build depends on 3 factors :
1) is it easy to scout 2) is it strong vs standard openings 3) is it robust vs opponent common aggressions. 4) Bonus : can you transition into midgame/lategame without being too far behind
For point 1 it seems to me while I was testing hammer build that the build could be either hammer build or mine drop and if protoss even didn't scout the gas it could be a 1 rax fe as well or reaper expand because protoss often back their probe after scouting gas to avoid being blocked in terran base. So far I didn't encountered anyone strongly reacting to this. They often thinks it's 1 rax fe or reaper fe . Overall i find this build hard to scout. My one point of criticism regarding that is it feels to me that a protoss preping for a mine drop is also in good shape to defend Hammer build.
2) is it strong vs standard opening.
This build is very strong vs the standard 1 stalker 1 MsC expo that I see 70% of the time so in that regard it seems to me that it is a good build.
3) I faced multiple time oracle proxy and what can I say is that it allows to react in time to put turrets in mineral lines or at least have a WM in it. Regarding blink allin, I never faced it so couldn't tell but WM and marauder seems good compo vs that at least in diamond.
What I like with this build is that it has a well thought follow up with multiple stage of aggression throughout the game. Also it uses mech which is very fun and unusual. Overall after testing multiple weird gimmick terrans builds, this build is very good for ladder and tons of fun BECAUSE it has a follow up. Also the micro at the begining is really enjoyable and demand skill to be perfectly mastered.
On the derail of the thread
I understand why Sated is upset because indeed Hammer doesn't response at all to criticisim in this thread which is very dishonest when you are building a strategy guide. The attitude is overall very childish and doesn't serve his purpose.
Too bad because Terrans definitively need some well thought alternative builds because standard bio play one day everyday is what makes this game boring.
Yeah I stated my thoughts on the build twice so far in this thread too in a very fair and civilized manner and I don't think I got any thoughts from the OP on them.
Are you blind or did you decided to pretend you didn't see the replay - where I get both a faster expansion and lose less resources than my opponent during the marauder widow push - I just posted?
LOL did you see what I just posted I don't care about some no name it HAS to be Hammer or Nothing ......
Be right back, stitching my sides back together after this joker just split them.
On February 03 2015 20:27 Jakamakala wrote: Yeah I stated my thoughts on the build twice so far in this thread too in a very fair and civilized manner and I don't think I got any thoughts from the OP on them.
He ignores basically any post that don't start by " your build is so great". I suggest you try that before any criticism
On February 03 2015 13:39 Pirfiktshon wrote: Oh man I just watched that rep... that guy was plat and the other thing is he had you beat and didn't realize it.... 2 times at LEAST! 2 times..... Not to mention he didn't even use the most up to date build. Honestly if that was me you wouldn' thave gotten past the 8 minute mark without me all over your base.... let alone hammer hahaha You should crawl back in your whole because that rep was laughable as a demonstration of possible weakness....
Sigh. You're acting as if proof that this build is quite easy to counter wasn't already posted. This was almost a year ago:
On April 08 2014 02:50 SatedSC2 wrote:
On April 08 2014 01:30 -Hammer- wrote:
On April 07 2014 17:53 SatedSC2 wrote: This isn't a good/stable opening because it's very easy to deflect the initial pressure and then crush through the timing-attack once you know the proper response. I have nothing against cheese builds, and this will definitely work very well against people who haven't seen it before or who don't manage to scout that it's coming, but acting as if this is a good/stable opening is disingenuous.
Are you writing this based on experience or theory? I have used this build many times, and as previously mentioned, even if direct damage is not accomplished, indirect damage to Protoss economy is. Protoss needs to use chrono on army, engage at a time they would rather be focusing on macro, and so on. My numbers speak for themselves, your feedback is just conjecture.
Experience.
I've made several posts in this thread that explain why you're wrong to assume that the "indirect damage" you deal makes up for how non-economic this opening is. I've even made a post detailing what is 100% the correct response, and that response does not involve the Protoss chronoboosting anything other than Probes. I've played against this build on more than one occasion and the only time I lost was the very first time I faced it, which is also the only time I didn't respond using the response I detailed in this thread.
Below is a screenshot to prove that I've both faced and beaten this build, although I unfortunately no longer have the replay. This game was played on the NA server - which isn't my normal server - and was against an unranked opponent who has previously placed in the Masters league. There are others, but I can't be bothered searching through my NA match history to find them; I also find it interesting how I've only ever seen this opening being used on NA...
My response in this game was exactly the response that I've posted in this thread. I opened with a 1 Gate FE (13 Gate, 14 Gas, 15 Pylon, 18 Zealot, 20 Cybernetics Core, 22 Cut Probes, 22 Nexus, 22 MSC) and followed that up with a quick Forge. This is a variation of the standard 1 Gate FE that I learnt from TAiLS, but I don't see any reason why my response wouldn't work if the Protoss went for a more standard 1 Gate FE and followed that up with a quick Forge. As soon as the Forge finished, I threw down two Cannons at my natural and a third Cannon in my main mineral line. This might seem like a large number of Cannons, but this particular opening normally gets a Cannon in each mineral line anyway since it has no other way of deflecting Widow Mine drops. This essentially means that this Terran did a whopping 150 minerals of "indirect damage" to me. Through a combination of the Cannons and Photon Overcharge, I took absolutely no damage from the initial pressure even though I was chronoboosting Probes the whole damn time.
If I remember correctly, I then went on to do an 8 Gate +2 Armour Chargelot/Archon timing-attack to win the game, which would make sense given that's the exact all-in TAiLS was refining when I copied this build off him. It's also a timing-attack that hits before your "mid-game" Widow Mine drop (based on the screenshots in the OP), which I find hilarious because it means that I managed to hit a full-strength timing-attack before your build was even half-way done...
EDIT:
As much as I love cheesy builds and timing-attacks, pretending that a combination of the two represents solid-play is completely ludicrous.
Hammer completely dodged offering an explanation for how his build could deal with the response outlined in my post so I don't expect him to do so now. Not that I have anything against this build because I happen to know a lot about using bullshit builds to get wins on the ladder. Because of this, I feel like I can tell whether or not a build is legitimately "good" or just something that works because nobody sees it enough to know the proper response.
I don't doubt that Hammer has a high win-rate with this build, but I have a high win-rate #PrayingToInCa and you don't see me pretending that it is a be-all-end-all standard build that will win all the damn time. SC2 isn't that simple. Gimmicky builds wouldn't work if everyone used them and that's why they don't, so something working on ladder doesn't mean it's a "good" build. It's just that gimmick/cheese happens to be fucking amazing in SC2 when the opponent doesn't scout it or doesn't respond perfectly.
This argument is stupid. If you think that Hammer's build is anything other than a gimmicky ladder build that gets a high win-rate because it doesn't make sense then you're wholly incorrect. I should know because my Double-Triple-Double doesn't make sense either and people using it have gotten an 80% win-rate with it, but it's not a "good" build. It's a stupid build that happens to work.
EDIT:
Just to be perfectly clear:
High Win-Rates ≠ "Good" Builds
On the build
While I agree with some of your points, your build with 3 cannons is a little bit weird and uncommon (never seen in EU server ever). The question is would you go for this weird 3 cannon build everytime you see someone build marines instead of reaper from terran.
As you'll see from my screenshot, the Cannon response was based on Terran opening Factory and Tech Lab, which was the original version of this build. That version of the build is incredibly easy to scout since there is literally nothing to stop me from scouting the Factory and Tech Lab. 3 Cannons is definitely weird and uncommon but you wouldn't normally get 3 Cannons with that opening, you would usually only get 1 Cannon in your main mineral line and maybe 1 Cannon at your natural: It was an opening I saw TAiLS using on his stream to open Chargelot/Archon with fast upgrades (a style that is obviously dead thanks to the Widow Mine buff) and I modified it to work against Hammer's opening after losing to Hammer's opening the first time I saw it. I've never lost to it since.
If the Terran opens with 2 Marines before switching into Marauders then this build becomes even easier to hold. Although I will admit that I've never personally played against it, it's quite obvious that really fast Marauder/Mine is a different proposition to Marine/Mine. You can't go for the extreme counter I outined above because you don't have any reason to do so but, based on the fact that 2 Rax Proxy Factory is holdable with a standard 1 Gate FE*, I'm sure the Marine modification to Hammer's build would be equally holdable since it essentially becomes a watered down version of Lillekanin's build.
*I have a replay of this hold being incredibly easy when done correctly, even without a Robotics Facility since you can just zone out the Widow Mines from being useful, but I've also fucked it up pretty hard before and so I'm not saying it is trivial...
Yep I just saw that you were talking about the old direct tech lab build. The marine opening is for me necessary for this build not being scouted. There is absolutely no reason a protoss don't smell the fish if he sees a techlab building on the rax.
with this BO in can scout the proxy oracle or other proxy. When i see proxy oracle (6prob/2gaz before cyber) and not enought pylon. I cut VCS after the finish of OC to 4:10. And build E-bay at 4:20 and turette finish before the oracle come in my mineral line. at the same time i do the push like hammer. with that i crush all proxy oracle. Sorry for my english I like your BO HAMMER THANK's a lot!
If people want to prove you build it's not good they have to beat you 3 times in BO3. In addition they have an advantage they know the strategy hammer will do. People have to stop critic if they have not the capacity to do that!
I don't disagree with this. The marine version of the build is definitely better at denying scouting. My point was that Hammer is opposed to responding to legitimate criticism when it is made - my criticism of the early version of this build was very legit and he refused to acknowledge it - and this made Pirfiktshon's posts seem really dumb.
Actually hammer has made refinement to the build and it was in answer to my post of the MSC poke. The dumbest comment made was the "I beat some random scrub on ladder so your build needs work" statement.... When he actually played some random low level plat using the old build on a map that hasn't been used since 2013.... That's where the stupidity came in and you decided to jump in on it by stating that you have legit criticism of an old build that isn't really suppose to be used anymore.....
I don't disagree with this. The marine version of the build is definitely better at denying scouting. My point was that Hammer is opposed to responding to legitimate criticism when it is made - my criticism of the early version of this build was very legit and he refused to acknowledge it - and this made Pirfiktshon's posts seem really dumb.
Actually hammer has made refinement to the build and it was in answer to my post of the MSC poke. The dumbest comment made was the "I beat some random scrub on ladder so your build needs work" statement.... When he actually played some random low level plat using the old build on a map that hasn't been used since 2013.... That's where the stupidity came in and you decided to jump in on it by stating that you have legit criticism of an old build that isn't really suppose to be used anymore.....
Hammer has still ignored both of my posts where I give legitimate criticism of his build compared to more standard ones in a civilized manner. Honestly it just comes off as a bit immature and stubborn. I main Zerg but I've been playing Terran this season and I'm not so sure I like his build compared to the more mainstream mine drop or tech lab reactor rax play.
Being creative is nice, but that doesn't mean it's a very good build.
Hammer has still ignored both of my posts where I give legitimate criticism of his build compared to more standard ones in a civilized manner. Honestly it just comes off as a bit immature and stubborn. I main Zerg but I've been playing Terran this season and I'm not so sure I like his build compared to the more mainstream mine drop or tech lab reactor rax play.
Being creative is nice, but that doesn't mean it's a very good build.
What criticism do you have? Maybe I can help I use this build with really really good success even in practice agianst Protoss masters players....
Edit: If you are referring to this criticism
Hammer I like you and you're a nice guy and I don't particularly agree with the presentation of the counterarguments, but I do have to disagree with you.
Your build is more of a one hit wonder to me and is in my opinion, less viable and holds less longevity throughout the game compared to the more standard:
Reaper FE into 3 rax which can stop oracles and gives you a fast core army 1/1/1 mine drops that Koreans are starting to favor
Both these builds give great aggressive options, smooth transitions, and get your natural down at 3:25 while being safe.
Mine drops, IMO, can be integrated into any build and your massive mech push can be put akin to the more powerful SCV pulls.
There are strengths and weaknesses to every build the strength of the hammer build is the push that you do is strong enough that when microed properly will almost always do damage in one form or another.... Its also safe and hits at important timings of the protoss where they are especially weak when going for aggressive builds which can effect their timings harshly putting you ahead. I do this into bio with great success I have never played a match where I have not done damage with the initial push and come out behind. Now can I do this to parting and have the same results .... most likely not LOL
The fact of the matter is that it IS viable on ladder.
Simply put though I really like this build because it forces my opponent into detection and you can get some serious returns from good micro with this build.
Nope. You're relying on Protoss making a mistake or playing greedy. Not on your own control. It's a cheese, a gimmick. Acting like it remotely resembles standard, "good" play is ridiculous. Like I said, I know a lot about coming up with bullshit builds that get you high win-rates on ladder. The difference is that I'm honest enough to be up-front about the fact that they're bullshit.
I'm just waiting for one of you naysayers to actually prove it... thats all i'm asking if you prove it and take it from theory into practice then I'll have no leg to stand on as of yet you are all theory and no practice....
Nope. You're relying on Protoss making a mistake or playing greedy. Not on your own control. It's a cheese, a gimmick. Acting like it remotely resembles standard, "good" play is ridiculous. Like I said, I know a lot about coming up with bullshit builds that get you high win-rates on ladder. The difference is that I'm honest enough to be up-front about the fact that they're bullshit.
I'm just waiting for one of you naysayers to actually prove it... thats all i'm asking if you prove it then and take it from theory into practice then I'll have no leg to stand on as of yet you are all theory and no practice....
This.
The good thing about this build that differentiates it from cheese is that it has a follow-up plan to transition into a macro game. The opening is designed to set up for that. The fact that Protoss has a correct response only proves that it's not OP, as it's far from an auto-loss if the Protoss responds correctly, and the Terran counter-responds correctly.
The critics of the build do not show nearly as much concrete evidence as the massive success that is shown with it when done right, even if the Protoss responds correctly. They also don't at all account for the variations of it that can be done depending on the map.
Technically neither side can really prove much about its pro-level viability since no one at that level has really attempted it (and no attempting doesn't prove anything except that pros have several other reasons for following standard play for the most part, and the ones that don't usually use their own stuff, not the stuff of others). The side of success with the build has a lot more gameplay evidence than the side that calls it bad, though.
Nope. You're relying on Protoss making a mistake or playing greedy. Not on your own control. It's a cheese, a gimmick. Acting like it remotely resembles standard, "good" play is ridiculous. Like I said, I know a lot about coming up with bullshit builds that get you high win-rates on ladder. The difference is that I'm honest enough to be up-front about the fact that they're bullshit.
I'm just waiting for one of you naysayers to actually prove it... thats all i'm asking if you prove it then and take it from theory into practice then I'll have no leg to stand on as of yet you are all theory and no practice....
This.
The good thing about this build that differentiates it from cheese is that it has a follow-up plan to transition into a macro game. The opening is designed to set up for that. The fact that Protoss has a correct response only proves that it's not OP, as it's far from an auto-loss if the Protoss responds correctly, and the Terran counter-responds correctly.
The critics of the build do not show nearly as much concrete evidence as the massive success that is shown with it when done right, even if the Protoss responds correctly. They also don't at all account for the variations of it that can be done depending on the map.
Technically neither side can really prove much about its pro-level viability since no one at that level has really attempted it (and no attempting doesn't prove anything except that pros have several other reasons for following standard play for the most part, and the ones that don't usually use their own stuff, not the stuff of others). The side of success with the build has a lot more gameplay evidence than the side that calls it bad, though.
Do we have to simply pull up hundreds of replays of pros not doing this and preferring the tech lab reactor play or mine drop builds?
I don't play Protoss I dual race T and Z but I'm sure Sated (who has played against pros before) is both extremely credible, honest, and has probably faced this build before on the ladder.
I'll admit even this one that was allowed to stay up is very vague for a "guide."
It gives a BO for about 5 minutes, then says "do drops," then says "your infrastructure should look like this and here's your end army," with a few pictures and then a long list of replays. You give absolutely no details on how to transition from first attack to drop attacks to end game attack. This is poor guide writing.
My own guide that I posted here for ZvP I'd like to think has a lot of details and I work through the BO and how to react to many situations, early game mechanics, scouting, and a step by step what-to-do all the way up to 16-17 minutes.
*Shrug*
Can you give any details following the first (gimmicky) attack on how to build up your infrastructure for the drop attacks? Any gas timings? Factory and barracks timings? Third expo timings? How do you time your starport so the medivacs come out at an exact time? When do you throw down the last of your infrastructure and optimally build up to this 14-15 minute mech attack?
You need to put details into your guide if you want to take any pride in it. I was afraid to state this earlier until this gentleman pointed all these closed threads out.
On February 06 2015 18:43 SatedSC2 wrote: Like I said already, I have nothing against builds being cheesy. I think they add variety to the game and I use a lot of stupid builds myself. I just take exception to people acting as if their gimmicky builds can/could/should be standard when they're clearly not. It's disingenuous.
I've been using this build as a diascrub it has been working for me, it does seem like a bit of a gimmicky opening but i think thats pretty much because terran has been bottle necked into essentially 1 [viable] build due to the variety of [viable] protoss openings, so anything other than reaper>reactor>mine drop expand just seems way out there.
IMO its only cheesy if its absolutely a loss when scouted and reacted to, like 6 pool vs standard, but not proxy oracle, by old SC standards proxying a tech building is seen as straight up cheesey, but because of how damn good it is, the fact that toss can transition out of it, and that its still alright vs "standard" once scouted. its basically a staple of pvt in pro-scene.
can it be shut down by standard safe protoss play, figuring out what terran is doing in game?
is that the standard? if so then zealot mothership core stalker pokes can be very risky, mine at top of the ramp and maruader waiting in the natural to catch something with concussive shells.
ofcourse all this is just nooby speculation. Have pros tested it and decided its garbage that's why they don't do it? I doubt it. People understandably follow the pro play style, anything else is seen as unviable trash, until a pro does it a couple times. I would love to see a pro-toss vs another pro doing this build.
maybe it is just trash for ladder only, but god damn its fun!
and yes put more details in, I had to watch your replays to understand how the follow up works, ive been doing (post push) 2 cc's fast followed by taking the last 3 gasses, then heading towards your production facilities going for what i need first ,i.e bunkers seige tanks hellions if he looks to counter immediatly, priority on ghosts if he is massing immortals and sentrys, priority on vikings if he is quick teching to collosus etc
On February 06 2015 18:00 Jakamakala wrote:Do we have to simply pull up hundreds of replays of pros not doing this and preferring the tech lab reactor play or mine drop builds?
I don't play Protoss I dual race T and Z but I'm sure Sated (who has played against pros before) is both extremely credible, honest, and has probably faced this build before on the ladder.
Absence of evidence does not prove a case, regardless of theory and theorist. Take early-stage balance tests for example -- there are credible pros that disagree with each other all the time, it takes extensive testing to reach a valid conclusion, and even then something can pop up later that makes that conclusion at least partially invalid.
On February 06 2015 18:43 SatedSC2 wrote:Having a transition means that it isn't all-in, it doesn't mean that it isn't cheesy. I hate to go back to the Dark Templar example but it is clear that Dark Templar rushes also have transitions and yet they're still considered cheese.
Like I said already, I have nothing against builds being cheesy. I think they add variety to the game and I use a lot of stupid builds myself. I just take exception to people acting as if their gimmicky builds can/could/should be standard when they're clearly not. It's disingenuous.
Cheese and gimmick are mostly opinion-based terms. Every early attack or non-standard strategy is labeled under cheese or gimmick by someone or another. My personal definition of cheese is something meant to end the game right in the earliest stages, and many players share that same definition.
That being said, by definition, if something is not widely used, it is not standard. However, that alone does not prove one way or the other that it could or couldn't work as standard were it widely used (and used correctly). Standard play has continuously evolved from the beginning of the game, and things are added onto that foundation (example: MMM is the foundation for 4M, MMMVG, Bio/Tank, and Bio/Thor/Hellbat) or the same foundation is varied slightly and added to (Marine/Tank). If something is found later to work as a different foundation not similar to the standard foundation, it will usually never be standard, as the founding standard paths are for the most part already set from the original strategies developed from the game release.
For this reason, regardless of viability, non-standard play will never be as refined as standard play as it is not widely developed in pro play.
Nope. You're relying on Protoss making a mistake or playing greedy. Not on your own control. It's a cheese, a gimmick. Acting like it remotely resembles standard, "good" play is ridiculous. Like I said, I know a lot about coming up with bullshit builds that get you high win-rates on ladder. The difference is that I'm honest enough to be up-front about the fact that they're bullshit.
I'm just waiting for one of you naysayers to actually prove it... thats all i'm asking if you prove it and take it from theory into practice then I'll have no leg to stand on as of yet you are all theory and no practice....
I'm not sure what you want me to prove. I've only ever lost to this build once and that's the first time I played against it. I've not lost to it since. Hell, I've not faced it in several months and that's mostly because when I do come up against a dedicated Mine-based cheese on ladder then it is Lillekanin's build. Lillekanin's build - and it is easy to spot this if you know anything about how Protoss works - poses far more threat than the 2x Marine version of this build does, and since it's possible to hold Lillekanin's build with a standard 1 Gate FE opening then will also be possible to hold Hammer's 2x Marine build that way.
The Marauder/Mine version was actually a stronger cheese in the sense that it was an unexpected composition at an unexpected timing that could easily catch people out. Delaying the Marauders by getting 2 Marines significantly weakens the timing this build can hit in order to delay scouting, which is stupid because if Hammer is so confident in the strength of the attack then he wouldn't need to deny scouting. The fact that he adjusted the build to deny scouting shows that it is a cheese because a "good"/"standard"/"non-gimmicky" build doesn't rely on scouting being denied.
Like I said already, I have no problem believing that you can get high win-rates on ladder with this build, but that doesn't stop it from being a gimmick. I get a lot of wins with Dark Templar rushes, doesn't make it any less cheesy when I do it!
The good thing about this build that differentiates it from cheese is that it has a follow-up plan to transition into a macro game. The opening is designed to set up for that. The fact that Protoss has a correct response only proves that it's not OP, as it's far from an auto-loss if the Protoss responds correctly, and the Terran counter-responds correctly.
Having a transition means that it isn't all-in, it doesn't mean that it isn't cheesy. I hate to go back to the Dark Templar example but it is clear that Dark Templar rushes also have transitions and yet they're still considered cheese.
Like I said already, I have nothing against builds being cheesy. I think they add variety to the game and I use a lot of stupid builds myself. I just take exception to people acting as if their gimmicky builds can/could/should be standard when they're clearly not. It's disingenuous.
I find it funny that you're comparing a legitimate build like this to Protoss cheese like Dark Templars which require little to no APM or strategy as they're permanently invisible for you. You must loose to this build a lot more than you let on.
On February 07 2015 21:57 SatedSC2 wrote: I like how the default position for supports of this build is, "You gave the build criticism, therefore you must be salty that you lost to this build so much lolololol!!!!!1!1!111one"
It says a lot about their mentality.
To be honest, it says a lot about the how mods are either sleeping on the job or turning a blind eye to this guide, since they're not enforcing the guidelines. I don't know how this thread is still up when all you have here is angry, disrespectful fanboys who think Hammer is as good as Maru. Hammer claims absurd things that aren't backed up by evidence and blatantly ignores any sort of valid criticism.
On February 07 2015 21:57 SatedSC2 wrote: I like how the default position for supports of this build is, "You gave the build criticism, therefore you must be salty that you lost to this build so much lolololol!!!!!1!1!111one"
It says a lot about their mentality.
To be honest, it says a lot about the how mods are either sleeping on the job or turning a blind eye to this guide, since they're not enforcing the guidelines. I don't know how this thread is still up when all you have here is angry, disrespectful fanboys who think Hammer is as good as Maru. Hammer claims absurd things that aren't backed up by evidence and blatantly ignores any sort of valid criticism.
No one is saying I'm as good as Maru lol, you're a clown. I'm usually around 100APM,.. the build works extremely well for me. The win rates are based on my execution of the build, and the proof is in my ladder results and replays.
Like with any build/style there can be weaknesses, but overall the build combats nearly all early Protoss cheese, and allows the Terran to "scout" through force, and control the pace of the game early on. It feel much more potent then marines being ravaged by early oracles, and juked by stalkers.
The comparison of my build to a DT rush is ridiculous, as there is still a heavy economic focus; 3 CC's completed before 9 minutes, or 2 CC's if going up against 1 base play. The build is adaptable, and presents a lot of options to a Terran player off the opening.
On February 07 2015 21:57 SatedSC2 wrote: I like how the default position for supports of this build is, "You gave the build criticism, therefore you must be salty that you lost to this build so much lolololol!!!!!1!1!111one"
It says a lot about their mentality.
To be honest, it says a lot about the how mods are either sleeping on the job or turning a blind eye to this guide, since they're not enforcing the guidelines. I don't know how this thread is still up when all you have here is angry, disrespectful fanboys who think Hammer is as good as Maru. Hammer claims absurd things that aren't backed up by evidence and blatantly ignores any sort of valid criticism.
No one is saying I'm as good as Maru lol, you're a clown. I'm usually around 100APM,.. the build works extremely well for me. The win rates are based on my execution of the build, and the proof is in my ladder results and replays.
Like with any build/style there can be weaknesses, but overall the build combats nearly all early Protoss cheese, and allows the Terran to "scout" through force, and control the pace of the game early on. It feel much more potent then marines being ravaged by early oracles, and juked by stalkers.
The comparison of my build to a DT rush is ridiculous, as there is still a heavy economic focus; 3 CC's completed before 9 minutes, or 2 CC's if going up against 1 base play. The build is adaptable, and presents a lot of options to a Terran player off the opening.
I am still waiting on your thoughts on the two posts I have contributed to this thread with valid criticisms on the build presented in a rational manner. Why are you making such an effort to ignore these it comes off as ignorant?
On February 07 2015 21:57 SatedSC2 wrote: I like how the default position for supports of this build is, "You gave the build criticism, therefore you must be salty that you lost to this build so much lolololol!!!!!1!1!111one"
It says a lot about their mentality.
To be honest, it says a lot about the how mods are either sleeping on the job or turning a blind eye to this guide, since they're not enforcing the guidelines. I don't know how this thread is still up when all you have here is angry, disrespectful fanboys who think Hammer is as good as Maru. Hammer claims absurd things that aren't backed up by evidence and blatantly ignores any sort of valid criticism.
The comparison of my build to a DT rush is ridiculous, as there is still a heavy economic focus; 3 CC's completed before 9 minutes, or 2 CC's if going up against 1 base play. The build is adaptable, and presents a lot of options to a Terran player off the opening.
So you're saying that your build is different to a Dark Templar rush because it has a heavy economic focus, which implies that you think Dark Templar rushes can't be economic. That's stupid. Of course there can still be a heavy economic focus after a Dark Templar rush. A good example of this would be the Dark Templar/Warp Prism build that TAiLS developed...
The difference is Terran can be on 3OC's on two bases; there is much more risk to a DT rush that fails to do damage. Comparing them is silly, apples to oranges, and not relevant whatsoever to the conversation.
On February 07 2015 21:57 SatedSC2 wrote: I like how the default position for supports of this build is, "You gave the build criticism, therefore you must be salty that you lost to this build so much lolololol!!!!!1!1!111one"
It says a lot about their mentality.
To be honest, it says a lot about the how mods are either sleeping on the job or turning a blind eye to this guide, since they're not enforcing the guidelines. I don't know how this thread is still up when all you have here is angry, disrespectful fanboys who think Hammer is as good as Maru. Hammer claims absurd things that aren't backed up by evidence and blatantly ignores any sort of valid criticism.
No one is saying I'm as good as Maru lol, you're a clown. I'm usually around 100APM,.. the build works extremely well for me. The win rates are based on my execution of the build, and the proof is in my ladder results and replays.
Like with any build/style there can be weaknesses, but overall the build combats nearly all early Protoss cheese, and allows the Terran to "scout" through force, and control the pace of the game early on. It feel much more potent then marines being ravaged by early oracles, and juked by stalkers.
The comparison of my build to a DT rush is ridiculous, as there is still a heavy economic focus; 3 CC's completed before 9 minutes, or 2 CC's if going up against 1 base play. The build is adaptable, and presents a lot of options to a Terran player off the opening.
I am still waiting on your thoughts on the two posts I have contributed to this thread with valid criticisms on the build presented in a rational manner. Why are you making such an effort to ignore these it comes off as ignorant?
The difference is Terran can be on 3OC's on two bases; there is much more risk to a DT rush that fails to do damage. Comparing them is silly, apples to oranges, and not relevant whatsoever to the conversation.
You heard it here first. When Terran rushes for Widow Mines to harass the Protoss, they are not taking a risk. But when Protoss rushes for Dark Templar to harass the Terran, they are taking a risk. All this despite me pointing out a build that was used in a professional team league that showed how Dark Templar can be rushed towards without there being too much risk or too much of an economic hit for the Protoss...
#HammerLogic #IsThisRealLife #WhyDoIEvenBother
This isn't real life and you spend way too much time whining about my build lol. You'll be okay little guy ;D
The difference is Terran can be on 3OC's on two bases; there is much more risk to a DT rush that fails to do damage. Comparing them is silly, apples to oranges, and not relevant whatsoever to the conversation.
You heard it here first. When Terran rushes for Widow Mines to harass the Protoss, they are not taking a risk. But when Protoss rushes for Dark Templar to harass the Terran, they are taking a risk. All this despite me pointing out a build that was used in a professional team league that showed how Dark Templar can be rushed towards without there being too much risk or too much of an economic hit for the Protoss...
#HammerLogic #IsThisRealLife #WhyDoIEvenBother
This isn't real life and you spend way too much time whining about my build lol. You'll be okay little guy ;D
There is a nice pattern here. You get shown to be wrong and so try to deflect attention by saying that I am "whining". It's the same pattern used by your supporters in this thread. Not a good mentality to have in life, and it's not going to work.
There are lots of examples of economy-based harassment used by the other races that remain economical. That doesn't make them any less gimmicky. TAiLS' build worked in a team-league, but it was still a gimmick. It's not something that you could use every game as a well-known player and get away with it. So please explain how you could possibly think that your build is any different to any other harassment based gimmick, else just admit that you're wrong (which you are) and that it isn't different.
What are you trying to prove? Sorry bud, the build works great and you're just wasting my time. I'm happy to help Terran players with questions, and respond to HIGH level players who have constructive feedback and suggestions; you're not that. Move along little man.
On February 08 2015 03:25 -Hammer- wrote: The comparison of my build to a DT rush is ridiculous, as there is still a heavy economic focus; 3 CC's completed before 9 minutes, or 2 CC's if going up against 1 base play. The build is adaptable, and presents a lot of options to a Terran player off the opening.
Oh really? Your follow up is so confusing that people have to watch your replays and write things down for themselves. Like, you say you should keep the pressure against 2 bases, but you also say you should drop widow mines or whatever (no starport timing at all in the description) and that you should build a third when you have resources (but not when to build the rest). No gas timings aside from the first one. There's literally no follow up, just vague descriptions of what you usually do.
On February 08 2015 06:36 -Hammer- wrote: Sorry, I meant to say "positive high level players who are contributing to the thread in a beneficial manner." Thank you.
Complaining about positivity whilst only ever insulting people for their input is incredibly ironic.
Stop deflecting.
Actually, don't bother. You've already proven that I'm right with your reluctance to confront the facts.
^_^
You're absolutely right, and not projecting at all I won't be wasting my time by responding to your posts any further. Have a great weekend big boy!
Complaining about positivity whilst only ever insulting people for their input is incredibly ironic.
Stop deflecting.
Actually, don't bother. You've already proven that I'm right with your reluctance to confront the facts.
^_^
I'm still waiting for your 3-0 vs hammer to be posted on this forum. Stop talking and prove it! If you reply "I already have because i played some scrub on ladder" or "No one uses it so its not viable" or any other lame excuse you pull out of your anus I'm gonna slap you! Don't post on this forum again unless its reps against hammer....
The difference is Terran can be on 3OC's on two bases; there is much more risk to a DT rush that fails to do damage. Comparing them is silly, apples to oranges, and not relevant whatsoever to the conversation.
You heard it here first. When Terran rushes for Widow Mines to harass the Protoss, they are not taking a risk. But when Protoss rushes for Dark Templar to harass the Terran, they are taking a risk. All this despite me pointing out a build that was used in a professional team league that showed how Dark Templar can be rushed towards without there being too much risk or too much of an economic hit for the Protoss...
#HammerLogic #IsThisRealLife #WhyDoIEvenBother
Imho rushing to WMs is less risky than rushing DTs, because the WMs are still rather useful, even if the opponent has detection. The WMs can still be used defensively at a decent cost, while DTs are too expensive and too squishy to rely on them for defense.
On February 07 2015 21:57 SatedSC2 wrote: I like how the default position for supports of this build is, "You gave the build criticism, therefore you must be salty that you lost to this build so much lolololol!!!!!1!1!111one"
It says a lot about their mentality.
To be honest, it says a lot about the how mods are either sleeping on the job or turning a blind eye to this guide, since they're not enforcing the guidelines. I don't know how this thread is still up when all you have here is angry, disrespectful fanboys who think Hammer is as good as Maru. Hammer claims absurd things that aren't backed up by evidence and blatantly ignores any sort of valid criticism.
The comparison of my build to a DT rush is ridiculous, as there is still a heavy economic focus; 3 CC's completed before 9 minutes, or 2 CC's if going up against 1 base play. The build is adaptable, and presents a lot of options to a Terran player off the opening.
So you're saying that your build is different to a Dark Templar rush because it has a heavy economic focus, which implies that you think Dark Templar rushes can't be economic. That's stupid. Of course there can still be a heavy economic focus after a Dark Templar rush. A good example of this would be the Dark Templar/Warp Prism build that TAiLS developed...
The difference is Terran can be on 3OC's on two bases; there is much more risk to a DT rush that fails to do damage. Comparing them is silly, apples to oranges, and not relevant whatsoever to the conversation.
On February 07 2015 21:57 SatedSC2 wrote: I like how the default position for supports of this build is, "You gave the build criticism, therefore you must be salty that you lost to this build so much lolololol!!!!!1!1!111one"
It says a lot about their mentality.
To be honest, it says a lot about the how mods are either sleeping on the job or turning a blind eye to this guide, since they're not enforcing the guidelines. I don't know how this thread is still up when all you have here is angry, disrespectful fanboys who think Hammer is as good as Maru. Hammer claims absurd things that aren't backed up by evidence and blatantly ignores any sort of valid criticism.
No one is saying I'm as good as Maru lol, you're a clown. I'm usually around 100APM,.. the build works extremely well for me. The win rates are based on my execution of the build, and the proof is in my ladder results and replays.
Like with any build/style there can be weaknesses, but overall the build combats nearly all early Protoss cheese, and allows the Terran to "scout" through force, and control the pace of the game early on. It feel much more potent then marines being ravaged by early oracles, and juked by stalkers.
The comparison of my build to a DT rush is ridiculous, as there is still a heavy economic focus; 3 CC's completed before 9 minutes, or 2 CC's if going up against 1 base play. The build is adaptable, and presents a lot of options to a Terran player off the opening.
I am still waiting on your thoughts on the two posts I have contributed to this thread with valid criticisms on the build presented in a rational manner. Why are you making such an effort to ignore these it comes off as ignorant?
What are the criticisms?
You are free to browse the last two pages to find them.
On February 07 2015 21:57 SatedSC2 wrote: I like how the default position for supports of this build is, "You gave the build criticism, therefore you must be salty that you lost to this build so much lolololol!!!!!1!1!111one"
It says a lot about their mentality.
To be honest, it says a lot about the how mods are either sleeping on the job or turning a blind eye to this guide, since they're not enforcing the guidelines. I don't know how this thread is still up when all you have here is angry, disrespectful fanboys who think Hammer is as good as Maru. Hammer claims absurd things that aren't backed up by evidence and blatantly ignores any sort of valid criticism.
The comparison of my build to a DT rush is ridiculous, as there is still a heavy economic focus; 3 CC's completed before 9 minutes, or 2 CC's if going up against 1 base play. The build is adaptable, and presents a lot of options to a Terran player off the opening.
So you're saying that your build is different to a Dark Templar rush because it has a heavy economic focus, which implies that you think Dark Templar rushes can't be economic. That's stupid. Of course there can still be a heavy economic focus after a Dark Templar rush. A good example of this would be the Dark Templar/Warp Prism build that TAiLS developed...
The difference is Terran can be on 3OC's on two bases; there is much more risk to a DT rush that fails to do damage. Comparing them is silly, apples to oranges, and not relevant whatsoever to the conversation.
On February 08 2015 04:43 Jakamakala wrote:
On February 08 2015 03:25 -Hammer- wrote:
On February 08 2015 01:04 vhapter wrote:
On February 07 2015 21:57 SatedSC2 wrote: I like how the default position for supports of this build is, "You gave the build criticism, therefore you must be salty that you lost to this build so much lolololol!!!!!1!1!111one"
It says a lot about their mentality.
To be honest, it says a lot about the how mods are either sleeping on the job or turning a blind eye to this guide, since they're not enforcing the guidelines. I don't know how this thread is still up when all you have here is angry, disrespectful fanboys who think Hammer is as good as Maru. Hammer claims absurd things that aren't backed up by evidence and blatantly ignores any sort of valid criticism.
No one is saying I'm as good as Maru lol, you're a clown. I'm usually around 100APM,.. the build works extremely well for me. The win rates are based on my execution of the build, and the proof is in my ladder results and replays.
Like with any build/style there can be weaknesses, but overall the build combats nearly all early Protoss cheese, and allows the Terran to "scout" through force, and control the pace of the game early on. It feel much more potent then marines being ravaged by early oracles, and juked by stalkers.
The comparison of my build to a DT rush is ridiculous, as there is still a heavy economic focus; 3 CC's completed before 9 minutes, or 2 CC's if going up against 1 base play. The build is adaptable, and presents a lot of options to a Terran player off the opening.
I am still waiting on your thoughts on the two posts I have contributed to this thread with valid criticisms on the build presented in a rational manner. Why are you making such an effort to ignore these it comes off as ignorant?
What are the criticisms?
You are free to browse the last two pages to find them.
Your comments are vague, I'm not sure what you want me to respond to? You talk about standard play being better, and my build having less longevity as the game goes on; ironically pro players quite often "pull the boys" in order not to go into the late game, due to a perceived weak tvp late game. Let me know what you would like me to specifically respond to, and I'm happy to do so.
On February 08 2015 19:51 Diamadoshikiller wrote: Excuse me , can someone list seriously the criticisms made at BO removing criticisms that targets the creator of bo.
I worked in research and know that great things can be created and made by unpleasant person . But their work must be respected.
I'll be more specific here.
Besides the guide itself being extremely vague and providing no timings on gases, third CC, starports, when to drop infrastructure etc and simply listing when you should have X amount of stuff at Y time with no direction, I think the build is borderline "cheese into macro." Sort of like 2 rax against Zerg but you put the rax closer to your base so it's slightly more "macro" or doing a San Gate attack which is super cheesy but is technically "macro" because you have your natural.
Hammers Build strikes around 6-6:15 against an established Protoss natural. Hammer takes his own natural literally 3 full minutes later than the standard Reaper FE into Bio play, whether it's 3 rax 1 with TL one with Reactor or 1/1/1 standard mine drop play that is rapidly becoming more common. This alone is a huge turn off.
Protoss standard play drops a Robo Facility at 5:30. This means it finishes around 6:30, and an obs can be out by 6:50. It is well worth it for the Protoss to just delay probing up the natural for about 40 seconds before they then enter the midgame with a huge economic lead and Terran is behind on their core tech (that being stim, +1, and rax count/starport).
7:50 Bio Pressures and mine drop 1/1/1 off an FE provide a strong economic backbone along with a strong opportunity to do damage with open opportunities to run away if Protoss defends well. I can parallel this with Hammer's first push but with more econ.
His "Drop Attacks" that have absolutely no instruction on how to macro up to them may be paralleled to very standard medivac drop play with bio/stim that any standard playing Terran worth his water will start doing to Protoss around 10 minutes, and with a third dropping at the same time.
The final push (once again with no macro/infrastructure direction given) may be paralleled to the standard (and very very strong) SCV pull, whether it be 2 base or the 3 base with 3 ghost version. I think most would agree that SCV pull is stronger than a mech push.
Even without SCV pull, playing the Ghost/Viking game in the hands of a skilled player is more reliable than doing mech play that quickly falls off against Protoss players that make the Protoss hard counter units. Most of the games where Hammer's mech push wins are games he already won because Protoss was so far behind.
I've played Hammer on ladder before. Granted, I play Zerg as my main and Terran as my alternate, but every time I hit him, he used some unorthodox, and frankly, terrible strategy against me like proxy factory for 2 widow mines that killed a grand total of 4 lings before I just walked up to his base and kill him. I think he is a nice guy but I don't think his builds are very good at all. I've been playing Terran for awhile and I have very great success just sticking to the basics and playing the mechanics game with standard play.
On February 08 2015 19:51 Diamadoshikiller wrote: Excuse me , can someone list seriously the criticisms made at BO removing criticisms that targets the creator of bo.
I worked in research and know that great things can be created and made by unpleasant person . But their work must be respected.
I'll be more specific here.
Besides the guide itself being extremely vague and providing no timings on gases, third CC, starports, when to drop infrastructure etc and simply listing when you should have X amount of stuff at Y time with no direction, I think the build is borderline "cheese into macro." Sort of like 2 rax against Zerg but you put the rax closer to your base so it's slightly more "macro" or doing a San Gate attack which is super cheesy but is technically "macro" because you have your natural.
Hammers Build strikes around 6-6:15 against an established Protoss natural. Hammer takes his own natural literally 3 full minutes later than the standard Reaper FE into Bio play, whether it's 3 rax 1 with TL one with Reactor or 1/1/1 standard mine drop play that is rapidly becoming more common. This alone is a huge turn off.
Protoss standard play drops a Robo Facility at 5:30. This means it finishes around 6:30, and an obs can be out by 6:50. It is well worth it for the Protoss to just delay probing up the natural for about 40 seconds before they then enter the midgame with a huge economic lead and Terran is behind on their core tech (that being stim, +1, and rax count/starport).
7:50 Bio Pressures and mine drop 1/1/1 off an FE provide a strong economic backbone along with a strong opportunity to do damage with open opportunities to run away if Protoss defends well. I can parallel this with Hammer's first push but with more econ.
His "Drop Attacks" that have absolutely no instruction on how to macro up to them may be paralleled to very standard medivac drop play with bio/stim that any standard playing Terran worth his water will start doing to Protoss around 10 minutes, and with a third dropping at the same time.
The final push (once again with no macro/infrastructure direction given) may be paralleled to the standard (and very very strong) SCV pull, whether it be 2 base or the 3 base with 3 ghost version. I think most would agree that SCV pull is stronger than a mech push.
Even without SCV pull, playing the Ghost/Viking game in the hands of a skilled player is more reliable than doing mech play that quickly falls off against Protoss players that make the Protoss hard counter units. Most of the games where Hammer's mech push wins are games he already won because Protoss was so far behind.
I've played Hammer on ladder before. Granted, I play Zerg as my main and Terran as my alternate, but every time I hit him, he used some unorthodox, and frankly, terrible strategy against me like proxy factory for 2 widow mines that killed a grand total of 4 lings before I just walked up to his base and kill him. I think he is a nice guy but I don't think his builds are very good at all. I've been playing Terran for awhile and I have very great success just sticking to the basics and playing the mechanics game with standard play.
I have never used a proxy factory in TvZ lol, I think you're confused... if you don't think my builds are good that's okay, but make sure you know what you're talking about before commenting on something
In reference to the TvP build being inferior to standard reaper expand, you might be right, but only against certain Protoss builds. My opening counters so much early Protoss cheese though, and allows you to properly pressure Protoss standard timings and greed; by forcing chrono'd army instead of workers, and also gives a really solid idea of what composition the Protoss army is going, all while getting a 2nd and 3rd CC behind it. Any macro lost by the later expand is gained with the addition of an in-base third.
I don't know how many times I have seen Terran pro's get wrecked early going standard, where had they used my build they would have been completely fine. You also forget that you can transition bio off the opening as well, which I do sometimes. And if I'm going up against some type of 1 base play I almost always go into a 2base bio play.
In terms of macro comparisons to something pro Koreans would use, the build is more similar to a wm/marine drop timing that high level players are using to pressure Protoss early; the difference being I get a much earlier third.
My TvP w/l ratio is generally much higher than most Terran players in Master League, and I do it with lower APM than most players at that level. I have a GM friend who uses the build regularly, along with standard play, and he has great success with both! It doesn't need to be a players only build, the more tactics we have the better.
On February 08 2015 19:51 Diamadoshikiller wrote: Excuse me , can someone list seriously the criticisms made at BO removing criticisms that targets the creator of bo.
I worked in research and know that great things can be created and made by unpleasant person . But their work must be respected.
I'll be more specific here.
Besides the guide itself being extremely vague and providing no timings on gases, third CC, starports, when to drop infrastructure etc and simply listing when you should have X amount of stuff at Y time with no direction, I think the build is borderline "cheese into macro." Sort of like 2 rax against Zerg but you put the rax closer to your base so it's slightly more "macro" or doing a San Gate attack which is super cheesy but is technically "macro" because you have your natural.
Hammers Build strikes around 6-6:15 against an established Protoss natural. Hammer takes his own natural literally 3 full minutes later than the standard Reaper FE into Bio play, whether it's 3 rax 1 with TL one with Reactor or 1/1/1 standard mine drop play that is rapidly becoming more common. This alone is a huge turn off.
Protoss standard play drops a Robo Facility at 5:30. This means it finishes around 6:30, and an obs can be out by 6:50. It is well worth it for the Protoss to just delay probing up the natural for about 40 seconds before they then enter the midgame with a huge economic lead and Terran is behind on their core tech (that being stim, +1, and rax count/starport).
7:50 Bio Pressures and mine drop 1/1/1 off an FE provide a strong economic backbone along with a strong opportunity to do damage with open opportunities to run away if Protoss defends well. I can parallel this with Hammer's first push but with more econ.
His "Drop Attacks" that have absolutely no instruction on how to macro up to them may be paralleled to very standard medivac drop play with bio/stim that any standard playing Terran worth his water will start doing to Protoss around 10 minutes, and with a third dropping at the same time.
The final push (once again with no macro/infrastructure direction given) may be paralleled to the standard (and very very strong) SCV pull, whether it be 2 base or the 3 base with 3 ghost version. I think most would agree that SCV pull is stronger than a mech push.
Even without SCV pull, playing the Ghost/Viking game in the hands of a skilled player is more reliable than doing mech play that quickly falls off against Protoss players that make the Protoss hard counter units. Most of the games where Hammer's mech push wins are games he already won because Protoss was so far behind.
I've played Hammer on ladder before. Granted, I play Zerg as my main and Terran as my alternate, but every time I hit him, he used some unorthodox, and frankly, terrible strategy against me like proxy factory for 2 widow mines that killed a grand total of 4 lings before I just walked up to his base and kill him. I think he is a nice guy but I don't think his builds are very good at all. I've been playing Terran for awhile and I have very great success just sticking to the basics and playing the mechanics game with standard play.
I have never used a proxy factory in TvZ lol, I think you're confused... if you don't think my builds are good that's okay, but make sure you know what you're talking about before commenting on something
In reference to the TvP build being inferior to standard reaper expand, you might be right, but only against certain Protoss builds. My opening counters so much early Protoss cheese though, and allows you to properly pressure Protoss standard timings and greed; by forcing chrono'd army instead of workers, and also gives a really solid idea of what composition the Protoss army is going, all while getting a 2nd and 3rd CC behind it. Any macro lost by the later expand is gained with the addition of an in-base third.
I don't know how many times I have seen Terran pro's get wrecked early going standard, where had they used my build they would have been completely fine. You also forget that you can transition bio off the opening as well, which I do sometimes. And if I'm going up against some type of 1 base play I almost always go into a 2base bio play.
In terms of macro comparisons to something pro Koreans would use, the build is more similar to a wm/marine drop timing that high level players are using to pressure Protoss early; the difference being I get a much earlier third.
My TvP w/l ratio is generally much higher than most Terran players in Master League, and I do it with lower APM than most players at that level. I have a GM friend who uses the build regularly, along with standard play, and he has great success with both! It doesn't need to be a players only build, the more tactics we have the better.
You're right it wasn't proxy it was a gas first widow mine build that still made absolutely no sense followed by a gimmicky mass hellion attack into having no units at home and dying:
SatedSC2 i'm Diamadoshi, a french Terran. I'm very bad in english even if i make a PhD...(French people...) I writed some topic on the french bnet SC2 forum. I'm passionated to TvP. I'm top platine but my level in TvP it's more diamond because i train a lot versus them. My TvT it's so bad (around 35%) that why i will never be diamond. My goal in SC2 now it's to help other low league terran player (gold/diamond) in TvP. That why i write: "TvP, le Hammer" 01/28/205 " Scouter unToss, ou l’art de voir ce qu’on ne voit pas" 10/14/2014 "Comment attaquer un Protoss ?" 09/29/2014 "13 gas Fe into window mine" 09/11/204 "Le KOREAN 2 RAX en TvP (HOTS)" 01/20/2014 and other... I have around 9000 games... Yes I am and seriously i think this BO is really interesting for low league terran. Why i never used this build before it's because all people say it's a mecha build. I hate mecha. But in reality this BO it's not a mecha. For me it's a macro variation of the "noctipush".
Sorry for my english, i will aswer later to Jakamakala.
On February 08 2015 19:51 Diamadoshikiller wrote: Excuse me , can someone list seriously the criticisms made at BO removing criticisms that targets the creator of bo.
I worked in research and know that great things can be created and made by unpleasant person . But their work must be respected.
I'll be more specific here.
Besides the guide itself being extremely vague and providing no timings on gases, third CC, starports, when to drop infrastructure etc and simply listing when you should have X amount of stuff at Y time with no direction, I think the build is borderline "cheese into macro." Sort of like 2 rax against Zerg but you put the rax closer to your base so it's slightly more "macro" or doing a San Gate attack which is super cheesy but is technically "macro" because you have your natural.
Hammers Build strikes around 6-6:15 against an established Protoss natural. Hammer takes his own natural literally 3 full minutes later than the standard Reaper FE into Bio play, whether it's 3 rax 1 with TL one with Reactor or 1/1/1 standard mine drop play that is rapidly becoming more common. This alone is a huge turn off.
Protoss standard play drops a Robo Facility at 5:30. This means it finishes around 6:30, and an obs can be out by 6:50. It is well worth it for the Protoss to just delay probing up the natural for about 40 seconds before they then enter the midgame with a huge economic lead and Terran is behind on their core tech (that being stim, +1, and rax count/starport).
7:50 Bio Pressures and mine drop 1/1/1 off an FE provide a strong economic backbone along with a strong opportunity to do damage with open opportunities to run away if Protoss defends well. I can parallel this with Hammer's first push but with more econ.
His "Drop Attacks" that have absolutely no instruction on how to macro up to them may be paralleled to very standard medivac drop play with bio/stim that any standard playing Terran worth his water will start doing to Protoss around 10 minutes, and with a third dropping at the same time.
The final push (once again with no macro/infrastructure direction given) may be paralleled to the standard (and very very strong) SCV pull, whether it be 2 base or the 3 base with 3 ghost version. I think most would agree that SCV pull is stronger than a mech push.
Even without SCV pull, playing the Ghost/Viking game in the hands of a skilled player is more reliable than doing mech play that quickly falls off against Protoss players that make the Protoss hard counter units. Most of the games where Hammer's mech push wins are games he already won because Protoss was so far behind.
I've played Hammer on ladder before. Granted, I play Zerg as my main and Terran as my alternate, but every time I hit him, he used some unorthodox, and frankly, terrible strategy against me like proxy factory for 2 widow mines that killed a grand total of 4 lings before I just walked up to his base and kill him. I think he is a nice guy but I don't think his builds are very good at all. I've been playing Terran for awhile and I have very great success just sticking to the basics and playing the mechanics game with standard play.
I have never used a proxy factory in TvZ lol, I think you're confused... if you don't think my builds are good that's okay, but make sure you know what you're talking about before commenting on something
In reference to the TvP build being inferior to standard reaper expand, you might be right, but only against certain Protoss builds. My opening counters so much early Protoss cheese though, and allows you to properly pressure Protoss standard timings and greed; by forcing chrono'd army instead of workers, and also gives a really solid idea of what composition the Protoss army is going, all while getting a 2nd and 3rd CC behind it. Any macro lost by the later expand is gained with the addition of an in-base third.
I don't know how many times I have seen Terran pro's get wrecked early going standard, where had they used my build they would have been completely fine. You also forget that you can transition bio off the opening as well, which I do sometimes. And if I'm going up against some type of 1 base play I almost always go into a 2base bio play.
In terms of macro comparisons to something pro Koreans would use, the build is more similar to a wm/marine drop timing that high level players are using to pressure Protoss early; the difference being I get a much earlier third.
My TvP w/l ratio is generally much higher than most Terran players in Master League, and I do it with lower APM than most players at that level. I have a GM friend who uses the build regularly, along with standard play, and he has great success with both! It doesn't need to be a players only build, the more tactics we have the better.
You're right it wasn't proxy it was a gas first widow mine build that still made absolutely no sense followed by a gimmicky mass hellion attack into having no units at home and dying:
Sorry about that it took awhile to find the replay.
Lol, that was months ago when I was dorkin around with new build orders; I like to try openings off the beaten path sometimes. I'm sure there's times you get wrecked too bud Anyways let's try stay on topic :D
I don't know much about Hammer or his reputation, but I don't understand why some of you are so determined to try and insult him and his build. Just because a build is unorthodox or may even be considered "not optimal" by standard macro play does not mean that it has no place in the game.
And in the end it is up to the player to try the build and decide if it is effective/works for their style. I'm only a gold terran but I only play mech in my TvPs (something most people would tell you not to do) and yet that is my best matchup. This opener interests me because currently I only go reaper reactor expand into mine drop as my only TvP build order.
I will try this build and if I find it effective I will mix it into my repertoire, and if I find myself being constantly scouted and hardcountered or something similar then obviously I will ditch it. That is up to the player to experiment for themselves, not for some message board warriors to decide what builds other players should use and what builds they shouldn't.
Just look at a guy like Ruff, he does crazy non-standard builds a majority of the time and yet he is GM NA. Are his builds for everyone? No, but if a player wants to try them out that is up to them, and who knows, maybe some people will find his builds actually fit well with their playstyle/goals.
Well I wasn't directly comparing this build to one of Ruff's builds. I was saying everyone finds different builds that work for them and everyone plays the game differently. Some people only play greedy, some people only play safe standard, some people only all-in/use heavy pressure, and some people hop around from one style to another depending on map/matchup etc.
As long as a build isn't just outright wrong like going 2 depots before rax, then who is to say whether anyone should at least try it or not? What I am saying is Hammer has laid out his build and why he finds that it works for him, so let the people who want to try it go ahead and do so. If they find that they have success with it as well, is there something wrong with that?
"Besides the guide itself being extremely vague and providing no timings on gases, third CC, starports, when to drop infrastructure etc and simply listing when you should have X amount of stuff at Y time with no direction," Jakamakala
Less vague BO
10 Supply 12 Rax --> 2 marines then TL 13 Gas 15 Supply (wall) 17 OC 19 Factory (constant marauder production) (constant mine production) (clear natural with first marauder) 22 Supply 24 Supply 29 Concussive Shell research 32 Supply (5 :15) push 40 (5 :50) CC2 in B2 46 (6 :30) Supply (6 :45) CC3 in B1
(hear it’s a mean around +/- 15 seconde) (8 :00) gas 2,3 et 4 Factory 2 (then reactor) and TL on Factory 1 and restart make Supply (9 :00) Spatioport then medivec then reactor then viking (10 :30) Factory 3 then reactor (11 :15) Armory and Academy (12 :30) Blue flamme and start viking and ghost
The difference is Terran can be on 3OC's on two bases; there is much more risk to a DT rush that fails to do damage. Comparing them is silly, apples to oranges, and not relevant whatsoever to the conversation.
You heard it here first. When Terran rushes for Widow Mines to harass the Protoss, they are not taking a risk. But when Protoss rushes for Dark Templar to harass the Terran, they are taking a risk. All this despite me pointing out a build that was used in a professional team league that showed how Dark Templar can be rushed towards without there being too much risk or too much of an economic hit for the Protoss...
#HammerLogic #IsThisRealLife #WhyDoIEvenBother
This isn't real life and you spend way too much time whining about my build lol. You'll be okay little guy ;D
There is a nice pattern here. You get shown to be wrong and so try to deflect attention by saying that I am "whining". It's the same pattern used by your supporters in this thread. Not a good mentality to have in life, and it's not going to work.
No. You just can't handle when you lose an argument. You're a bit more see-through than you think.
Really like the build- has got me back into SC2... I also notice you only have about 60 apm most of the time. I have about 50 odd... I would love to know what your hotkey setup is as you seem able to get so much done with an apm that is often much lower than your opponent.
On February 09 2015 17:53 Rich1010 wrote: Hi Hammer (or anyone who can answer this q)
Really like the build- has got me back into SC2... I also notice you only have about 60 apm most of the time. I have about 50 odd... I would love to know what your hotkey setup is as you seem able to get so much done with an apm that is often much lower than your opponent.
Nice to hear! My APM is usually around 100, sometimes 80 in quieter/quick games :D I don't spam or anything. I will get my hotkey setup for you tomorrow (not logged on this computer). You're welcome to add me in-game too hammer.1928. Let me know if I can help with some builds! Cheers.
On February 08 2015 19:51 Diamadoshikiller wrote: Excuse me , can someone list seriously the criticisms made at BO removing criticisms that targets the creator of bo.
I worked in research and know that great things can be created and made by unpleasant person . But their work must be respected.
I'll be more specific here.
Besides the guide itself being extremely vague and providing no timings on gases, third CC, starports, when to drop infrastructure etc and simply listing when you should have X amount of stuff at Y time with no direction, I think the build is borderline "cheese into macro." Sort of like 2 rax against Zerg but you put the rax closer to your base so it's slightly more "macro" or doing a San Gate attack which is super cheesy but is technically "macro" because you have your natural.
Hammers Build strikes around 6-6:15 against an established Protoss natural. Hammer takes his own natural literally 3 full minutes later than the standard Reaper FE into Bio play, whether it's 3 rax 1 with TL one with Reactor or 1/1/1 standard mine drop play that is rapidly becoming more common. This alone is a huge turn off.
Protoss standard play drops a Robo Facility at 5:30. This means it finishes around 6:30, and an obs can be out by 6:50. It is well worth it for the Protoss to just delay probing up the natural for about 40 seconds before they then enter the midgame with a huge economic lead and Terran is behind on their core tech (that being stim, +1, and rax count/starport).
7:50 Bio Pressures and mine drop 1/1/1 off an FE provide a strong economic backbone along with a strong opportunity to do damage with open opportunities to run away if Protoss defends well. I can parallel this with Hammer's first push but with more econ.
His "Drop Attacks" that have absolutely no instruction on how to macro up to them may be paralleled to very standard medivac drop play with bio/stim that any standard playing Terran worth his water will start doing to Protoss around 10 minutes, and with a third dropping at the same time.
The final push (once again with no macro/infrastructure direction given) may be paralleled to the standard (and very very strong) SCV pull, whether it be 2 base or the 3 base with 3 ghost version. I think most would agree that SCV pull is stronger than a mech push.
Even without SCV pull, playing the Ghost/Viking game in the hands of a skilled player is more reliable than doing mech play that quickly falls off against Protoss players that make the Protoss hard counter units. Most of the games where Hammer's mech push wins are games he already won because Protoss was so far behind.
I've played Hammer on ladder before. Granted, I play Zerg as my main and Terran as my alternate, but every time I hit him, he used some unorthodox, and frankly, terrible strategy against me like proxy factory for 2 widow mines that killed a grand total of 4 lings before I just walked up to his base and kill him. I think he is a nice guy but I don't think his builds are very good at all. I've been playing Terran for awhile and I have very great success just sticking to the basics and playing the mechanics game with standard play.
I have never used a proxy factory in TvZ lol, I think you're confused... if you don't think my builds are good that's okay, but make sure you know what you're talking about before commenting on something
In reference to the TvP build being inferior to standard reaper expand, you might be right, but only against certain Protoss builds. My opening counters so much early Protoss cheese though, and allows you to properly pressure Protoss standard timings and greed; by forcing chrono'd army instead of workers, and also gives a really solid idea of what composition the Protoss army is going, all while getting a 2nd and 3rd CC behind it. Any macro lost by the later expand is gained with the addition of an in-base third.
I don't know how many times I have seen Terran pro's get wrecked early going standard, where had they used my build they would have been completely fine. You also forget that you can transition bio off the opening as well, which I do sometimes. And if I'm going up against some type of 1 base play I almost always go into a 2base bio play.
In terms of macro comparisons to something pro Koreans would use, the build is more similar to a wm/marine drop timing that high level players are using to pressure Protoss early; the difference being I get a much earlier third.
My TvP w/l ratio is generally much higher than most Terran players in Master League, and I do it with lower APM than most players at that level. I have a GM friend who uses the build regularly, along with standard play, and he has great success with both! It doesn't need to be a players only build, the more tactics we have the better.
I agree with the 3rd CC timing thing. It is easy to compare an aggressive build to a standard play build and say it's non viable because of the natural timing. But the strength of aggressive build sometimes is to allow you to figure out your opponent and be safe against early allin. Thus it allows you to take risk and get faster 3rd CC. When using the build I indeed a lot of time build greedy 3rd CC (into standard bio) because protoss is on the defensive and basically don't know what to do. his obs is busy denying mine drop at home and thus scout the 3rd CC way to late.
I will post a screen of a scv production curve as it illustrates perfectly the situation. Basically even if your push has done little dommage you recover in scv prod with your 3rd CC at 11-12ish min. With terrans mules the situation recovers even quicker than the scv prod suggest. THis is the rule I find applicable for every type of aggressive terran play.
The key though is to impose constant threat. If you loose horribly your aggressive troups without any dmg (first push + mine drops) you are dead as the Protoss can either outexpand you because he feels safe to do so or seize the opportunity to reverse allin you.
The strength of this is also WM as they scares the hell out of protoss when they have to decide to allin or not.
If I had to play protoss vs this I would probably go greedy 3rd nexus very fast because you can identify that this kind of aggression lacks of strong midgame follow up (the 2 medivac push) .
Basically facing build like this demand very good game knowledge from the enemy to figure out the right allin or greedy response to show to Hammer build. Maybe it doesn't work in pro level because their game knowledge and adaptibilty is way too high, but in ladder people are very bad at adapting their BO and thinking.
Also the more I play it the more I think marine first is mandatory to deny scouting.
« I think the build is borderline "cheese into macro." Sort of like 2 rax against Zerg but you put the rax closer to your base so it's slightly more "macro" or doing a San Gate attack which is super cheesy but is technically "macro" because you have your natural » Jakamakala
The question here it’s : Hammer build it’s a cheese, an all-in or macro BO ? « Cheese most often refers to an unexpected strategy that relies in large parts on lack of information and/or psychological impact on the opponent. Cheese build orders typically revolve around an early attack that, if undetected, is more difficult to defend than execute. Players will not always cheese for an outright win. In certain scenarios, cheese can be used to either force a low-econ game or to gain an early advantage. The unbalanced nature of cheese usually serve to make decision making on the defending side more fatal… A common form in practice is to neglect a long term viable economy to be able to produce a couple of extra units for attack… Cheese is usually characterized by its strategic fragility. The cheesing player is making a wager that the defending player will have some sort of oversight in his build ». Liquipedia
The Opening of Hammer seem like a cheese but it’s not a cheese (Canada dry). Why ? Because you don’t try to neglect economy to produce extra units for attack. If you calculate the production of Hammer to create constant maraudeur and mine and supply it’s around 400 mineral/min. The 1 rax Fe production turn around 300 mineral/min and start produce later. In reality Hammer try to start is game with maraudeur/mine and not just with marine but not try to have a maximun of maraudeur/mine. Because he want expand quickly after. In reality it’s the same with 1 rax Fe we need to have reaper, expand and quickly have a lot of marines to defend. The question is why hammer not try to have before expand then after Marauder/mine. Because Hammer have a goal, a weak timing when protoss expand (we will see later).
The other point it’s not a chesse it’s because it’s not a risky strategy. The protoss have no possibility to kill you quickly if he scout you. I think a lot of people disagree here. It’s not risky because : 1/ with a good contrôl of your first marine it’s impossible to protoss to really know what happen if he not know you (like ladder). 2/ The timing push at 6 minutes induce a delay of the real counter of Mine/Maraudeur (obs/colosse). At this timing the protoss just neutralize but not win something if he do the good counter (obs/imo and gate way unit). Some people imagine they can counter attack but it’s not really possible. In reality Hammer avoid during the push the time mining of the B2 to 6-8 minutes, your economy it’s on one base but you put 400 mineral in an expand. When you produce obs/imo and gate way at this timing on 1 base the colossus will come very late.
Some people imagine oracle it’s a counter of mines. Hammer answer : terran have to learn kill air unit with mines. If you protect your SCV by turret or mines and use you mines like turret during the battle (marauder always next to a active mine) oracle have no or few opportunity to do damage.
Conclusion : The Opening of Hammer is not a cheese or an all-in but a macro BO starting with a pressure. This pressure have to force the Protoss player quickly build the robot and quickly produce gate units just after expand without the benefit of the economy of the B2. All these induce a weak mid-game of protoss player. At 12 minutes they will have a delay in technology or a very low quantity of army. Nevertheless it is still necessary to be able to master the push.
I forgot: 1 mine (75 mineral/25 gas) one shoot a oracle without have damage. 6 marines (600 mineral) kill a oracle but you lost 2 marines. Humm i like the first condition.
An allin is a build that have no follow up. If it fails you loose, if it succeed you win. That's why both proxy 2 rax in TvZ and "blink-allin" were moved to all-in to early pressure build after pro showed us we can perfectly transition from the two. Hammer build-> not a allin.
I don't agree totally with you when you call Hammer build not a cheese. For me if it is scouted too early it looses too much value vs a decent protoss. It's indeed a cheese that apply early pressure into macro transition. For me the definition of liquipedia apply perfectly at this build.
On February 09 2015 21:36 Diamadoshikiller wrote: « I think the build is borderline "cheese into macro." Sort of like 2 rax against Zerg but you put the rax closer to your base so it's slightly more "macro" or doing a San Gate attack which is super cheesy but is technically "macro" because you have your natural » Jakamakala
The question here it’s : Hammer build it’s a cheese, an all-in or macro BO ? « Cheese most often refers to an unexpected strategy that relies in large parts on lack of information and/or psychological impact on the opponent. Cheese build orders typically revolve around an early attack that, if undetected, is more difficult to defend than execute. Players will not always cheese for an outright win. In certain scenarios, cheese can be used to either force a low-econ game or to gain an early advantage. The unbalanced nature of cheese usually serve to make decision making on the defending side more fatal… A common form in practice is to neglect a long term viable economy to be able to produce a couple of extra units for attack… Cheese is usually characterized by its strategic fragility. The cheesing player is making a wager that the defending player will have some sort of oversight in his build ». Liquipedia
The Opening of Hammer seem like a cheese but it’s not a cheese (Canada dry). Why ? Because you don’t try to neglect economy to produce extra units for attack. If you calculate the production of Hammer to create constant maraudeur and mine and supply it’s around 400 mineral/min. The 1 rax Fe production turn around 300 mineral/min and start produce later. In reality Hammer try to start is game with maraudeur/mine and not just with marine but not try to have a maximun of maraudeur/mine. Because he want expand quickly after. In reality it’s the same with 1 rax Fe we need to have reaper, expand and quickly have a lot of marines to defend. The question is why hammer not try to have before expand then after Marauder/mine. Because Hammer have a goal, a weak timing when protoss expand (we will see later).
The other point it’s not a chesse it’s because it’s not a risky strategy. The protoss have no possibility to kill you quickly if he scout you. I think a lot of people disagree here. It’s not risky because : 1/ with a good contrôl of your first marine it’s impossible to protoss to really know what happen if he not know you (like ladder). 2/ The timing push at 6 minutes induce a delay of the real counter of Mine/Maraudeur (obs/colosse). At this timing the protoss just neutralize but not win something if he do the good counter (obs/imo and gate way unit). Some people imagine they can counter attack but it’s not really possible. In reality Hammer avoid during the push the time mining of the B2 to 6-8 minutes, your economy it’s on one base but you put 400 mineral in an expand. When you produce obs/imo and gate way at this timing on 1 base the colossus will come very late.
Some people imagine oracle it’s a counter of mines. Hammer answer : terran have to learn kill air unit with mines. If you protect your SCV by turret or mines and use you mines like turret during the battle (marauder always next to a active mine) oracle have no or few opportunity to do damage.
Conclusion : The Opening of Hammer is not a cheese or an all-in but a macro BO starting with a pressure. This pressure have to force the Protoss player quickly build the robot and quickly produce gate units just after expand without the benefit of the economy of the B2. All these induce a weak mid-game of protoss player. At 12 minutes they will have a delay in technology or a very low quantity of army. Nevertheless it is still necessary to be able to master the push.
If it is not cheese you shouldn't have to delay your timing to deny the scout. So why are we bothering with step 1?
Anyways, I don't think anyone is denying it is a good build against the current standard (mindless, autopilot) Protoss play, but it has weaknesses.
You can just go to Hammers match history in game and see what builds he loses to and what builds he wins versus. It seems quite clear that if the Protoss goes the standard route of Twilight play, Stargate or does an all in, they end up in trouble. The tosses that have added an early forge or done 1 Gate->Robo seems to do alright. Some of them even win at minute 10-14. So by just looking at the match history of Hammer himself, it seems a bit off to claim it has no risks and there is nothing Protoss can do to kill you.
Tu as raison de ne pas être totalement d’accord avec moi. J'ai longtemps cru que c’était un cheese mais un cheese est un bo risqué qui si scouté à temps amene a la défaite (c'est la deuxième partie de la définition du cheese de liquipedia: "Cheese is usually characterized by its strategic fragility") . A partir du moment ou l'oracle n'est pas un contre correct (si on l'admet...). Le maraudeur/mine au timing proposé par Hammer n'a pas à ma connaissance de fragilité durant l'early game. Certain dirons qu'il induit un retard économique mais si le push empêche le protoss de miner correctement (je pense que c'est la découverte de hammer), ce retard n'existe pas voir le terran à plus d’économie que le protoss.
En gros si Hammer à raison ce BO peut être un standard. Le problème c'est que ça fait un peu passer les progamers pour des cons. J'ai souvent vu en laboratoire de très bonne idée proposé par des étudiants pas accepté par les chercheurs, certain ce moquant de leur idée. Un jour un brillant chercheur reconnu par la communauté dit la même idée et tout le monde cris au génie... La question est l'opening de Hammer est-il vraiment risqué ou effectivement les protoss n'ont pas a ce timing une réponse efficace surtout quand la micro et le multitasking du terran est importante.
I will translate after... sorry.
User was warned for this post
Translation: You're right not to be totally agreed with me. I have long believed that it was a cheese but cheese is a risk BO, If you scout it in time you will loose (the second part of the definition of cheese liquipedia:"Cheese is usually characterized by its strategic fragility"). If we admit oracle it's not a counter of marauder/mine, at the timming proposed by hammer hasn't with my knowlege fragility. Some say the Bo induce a economic backwardeness but if the first push work the terran equilibrate the situation or is in better condition.
Basically if Hammer are right his BO can be a standard . The problem is that it's a little pass progamers for idiots . I have often seen in laboratory great idea proposed by students not accepted by researchers, some jocking about their idea. One day, a brilliant researcher recognized by the community said the same idea and everyone said it's a genius ... The question is the opening of Hammer is it really safe and effective and Protoss do not have at this timing has an effective response especially when micro and multitasking of terran is important.
"If it is not cheese you shouldn't have to delay your timing to deny the scout." JulDraGoN
you not delay you timing to deny scout. the push always heat at 6 minutes to the protoss player. The 2 marines it's just better to kill MSC. Before with the first version to kill MSC you need 2 mines. The fact that this marines deny a the scout it's a icing on the cake.
"The tosses that have added an early forge or done 1 Gate->Robo seems to do alright." For early forge don't know. For 1 Gate->Robo i agree but in reality that depend of the capacity of Hammer delay economie or tech of protoss player and to play mecha a good mecha. My experience show me between 10-14 minutes if you produce enought tank and helion and maraudeur and 2 bunker you can defend 2 base protoss all-in. For me the real solution it's a protoss play 1 Gate->Robo with 3 gate and take very fast after third nexus and go to air (voidray). 15 minutes if you have 6 or 8 voidray and 2 immo and a lot of zealot charge i think protoss will win because i see if Hammer go his standart BO he have few viking and few mine at this timing. But in reality Hammer scout your base with drop to know!!!!
On February 09 2015 22:54 Diamadoshikiller wrote: "If it is not cheese you shouldn't have to delay your timing to deny the scout." JulDraGoN
you not delay you timing to deny scout. the push always heat at 6 minutes to the protoss player. The 2 marines it's just better to kill MSC. Before with the first version to kill MSC you need 2 mines. The fact that this marines deny a the scout it's a icing on the cake.
"The tosses that have added an early forge or done 1 Gate->Robo seems to do alright." For early forge don't know. For 1 Gate->Robo i agree but in reality that depend of the capacity of Hammer delay economie or tech of protoss player and to play mecha a good mecha. My experience show me between 10-14 minutes if you produce enought tank and helion and maraudeur and 2 bunker you can defend 2 base protoss all-in. For me the real solution it's a protoss play 1 Gate->Robo with 3 gate and take very fast after third nexus and go to air (voidray). 15 minutes if you have 6 or 8 voidray and 2 immo and a lot of zealot charge i think protoss will win because i see if Hammer go his standart BO he have few viking and few mine at this timing. But in reality Hammer scout your base with drop to know!!!!
You might be right, I don't know. I didn't take my examples from theory crafting, I took them directly from the last 3-4 days of Hammers match history.
I have honestly never played against this style. The last time I played against something similar was in early WoL (Marauder+Conc push). Also lost to Strelok when he proxy marauder+conc shelled me on Daybreak in late WoL, but that is about the few times I've come across it.
Marauder + conc shells isn't a new and revolutionary thing that no one has thought of. The only difference I can tell from that time is that now you add a mine. But I don't see how it changes the proper response that made it go away in the first place. Then it turns into a mine drop, but you can do it faster without the marauder opening.
The follow up is mech. Fine. Mech timings are annoying to deal with, I agree on that. But does it really matter which opening you choose before doing a mech timing all in?
It is a really cute build for sure. But I don't get why this specific mix-match of old and new styles combined into a build is such a big deal for so many people.
« I have honestly never played against this style. The last time I played against something similar was in early WoL (Marauder+Conc push). Also lost to Strelok when he proxy marauder+conc shelled me on Daybreak in late WoL, but that is about the few times I've come across it. Marauder + conc shells isn't a new and revolutionary thing that no one has thought of. The only difference I can tell from that time is that now you add a mine. But I don't see how it changes the proper response that made it go away in the first place. » JulDraGoN
That why i say play before talk !!!! How can you have a real oppinion without test. The marauder opening of WOL (Marauder+Conc push). We are not in WOL, it’s HOTS, we have mine and mine change a LOT OF THINGS. At the timing Hammer use the mine with 2 or 3 marauder it’s more effective than marine. Force robotique and obs early before make immortal and colosse 1 shoot unit when the protoss a have few unit Kill air unit (good support for maraudeur) Destroy shield of immortal, it’s a little EMP lllloooollll(good support for maraudeur) Patch : Widow Mine Splash radius is now 1.75. There are no longer 50% or 25% damage zones. Splash damage is now 40 (+40 Shields) for the full 1.75 splash radius. (80 for Protoss unit) (When you have 3 or 4 mine with 5 or 6 maraudeur…. And protoss have 1 immo and 5 gate way unit whitout overcharge a let you imagine what will happen. ) AOE a pack of zealot (good support for maraudeur) Perhaps i forgot something…
« Then it turns into a mine drop, but you can do it faster without the marauder » JulDraGoN The push with marauder is more important then the drop of mine. The drop it’s just a way to harass and not the main goal of the build. The push of Hammer it’s more powerfull then a drop of one or 2 mine. And you can’t have a drop of mines in the base of protoss before 6 :40 and you are all-in i think or not safe to stalker poke.
On February 09 2015 17:53 Rich1010 wrote: Hi Hammer (or anyone who can answer this q)
Really like the build- has got me back into SC2... I also notice you only have about 60 apm most of the time. I have about 50 odd... I would love to know what your hotkey setup is as you seem able to get so much done with an apm that is often much lower than your opponent.
Nice to hear! My APM is usually around 100, sometimes 80 in quieter/quick games :D I don't spam or anything. I will get my hotkey setup for you tomorrow (not logged on this computer). You're welcome to add me in-game too hammer.1928. Let me know if I can help with some builds! Cheers.
Thanks Hammer. Nope- I cannot add you as I play on the European server.
« Hammers Build strikes around 6-6:15 against an established Protoss natural. Hammer takes his own natural literally 3 full minutes later than the standard Reaper FE into Bio play, whether it's 3 rax 1 with TL one with Reactor or 1/1/1 standard mine drop play that is rapidly becoming more common. This alone is a huge turn off.
Protoss standard play drops a Robo Facility at 5:30. This means it finishes around 6:30, and an obs can be out by 6:50. It is well worth it for the Protoss to just delay probing up the natural for about 40 seconds before they then enter the midgame with a huge economic lead and Terran is behind on their core tech (that being stim, +1, and rax count/starport).
7:50 Bio Pressures and mine drop 1/1/1 off an FE provide a strong economic backbone along with a strong opportunity to do damage with open opportunities to run away if Protoss defends well. I can parallel this with Hammer's first push but with more econ. » JulDraGoN
In this part I think the problem is that the majority of the Protoss players (gold to master) always play " Standart " or " Safe" .
The most safes BO is not the most macro BO but which from the start can counter a large panel of early aggression without a big adaptation after a scout.
But there is a detail i had not read : « This PvT opener opens with 2 Stalkers and a Mothership Core to take advantage of the weakness of early game Marines when they cannot hide inside a bunker. » In reality the Protoss think Terran do many marines in the early game.
But why they think that ? Because they always do it.
Why Terran do many marines in the early game? Because they always do 1 rax Fe.
Why Terran are obliged to do many marines when they do 1 rax Fe ? Because if i expand between 3 :30 et 4 :00, to survive the only unit we can do it’s marine. Moreover Protoss have 2 crazy air unit, MSC and oracle at the beginning of the game.
Ok why terran expand so fast in TvP ? Because Terran all-in can’t counter 3 gate /robot into expand or it’s difficult to win versus 1gate expand into robo 3 gate with the MSC.
But dad Diamadoshi you said before play safe it’s do MSC +2 stalker. Now you say it’s more safe to play with 3gate and a robo…
The young Diamadoshi learn to the old Diamadoshi the HOTS standart of protoss it’s safe versus 1 rax Fe.
1/ The best of the best PatinG’s PvT : The Big Boy Build 2/ Drop my B1, i will all-in you PvT alicia’s 12/12 Colossus All-in 3/ My blink will crush your 1 rax Fe before you will have stim and Marauder Two base blink all-in 4/ Terror in the sky Proxy oracle into all-in or expand… 5/Where is the turret in 1 rax Fe ??? Ok release the DT. PrayingToinCa
Versus all this BO the Hammer work because no robot and 3 gates before around 6:30.
"His "Drop Attacks" that have absolutely no instruction on how to macro up to them may be paralleled to very standard medivac drop play with bio/stim that any standard playing Terran worth his water will start doing to Protoss around 10 minutes, and with a third dropping at the same time." Jakamakala
You compare thinks can't be compare. Drop in 1 rax Fe it's the major point of the build. If you not drop with 1 rax Fe you die (the protoss have to think minimun you will drop him even if you will not do it). Why? because BIO can't win frontal attack versus AOE of protoss army. You have to do multifront attack. The protoss army it's slow and he have to break is army. When he do that the Terran army it's better during the mid-game. The drop in Hammer is less important. When i play i don't do it. I focus more on the first push and the last push. For me this drop it's an opportunity to slow a greedy protoss (harrass opportunity with no obligation) and to scout the B1 or B3 of protoss.
"The final push (once again with no macro/infrastructure direction given) may be paralleled to the standard (and very very strong) SCV pull, whether it be 2 base or the 3 base with 3 ghost version. I think most would agree that SCV pull is stronger than a mech push.
Even without SCV pull, playing the Ghost/Viking game in the hands of a skilled player is more reliable than doing mech play that quickly falls off against Protoss players that make the Protoss hard counter units. Most of the games where Hammer's mech push wins are games he already won because Protoss was so far behind."Jakamakala
At the END you say the more important think: "Hammer's mech push wins are games he already won because Protoss was so far behind" Yes because of the opener!!! Even hammer say this opener have to do damage! If he not do damage it's really hard for terran to win. And hammer say what type of dammage: "With good control you should be able to do significant damage. If you don't, you have still done damage in the sense that Protoss is producing units when they would prefer to be focusing on worker chrono, and ramping up their economy."
Yes SCV pull with MMM+ mass viking and 2 ghost it's really powerfull but it's an ALL-IN. If you failed or the protoss counter with the 2 AOE (good mixe of colosse and HT and few centry) you LOOSE. TCHU TCHU it's not actually a good solution. Protoss learn. The Hammer mech it's not an all-in.
Finaly you talk about the Ghost/Viking. This composition it's more hard to control than the mecha of hammer! Even if you survived to the protoss and have this composition it's will be very hard to used it for win. I talk a lot about that in the french forum of SC2. The big probleme it's the capacity of the terran to survive during all the game without have damage big damge and after use that composition versus a very late game protoss.
Jakamakala i hope my answer help you to more understand why this build it's really good for Terran player between (gold to diamond). I stop play 2 days and i write to much...
What is very interesting it's you can make a 1 rax Fe with a reaper with this opening just after the rax finish. If you play a second time with the same player i think you can just make him crazy.
I have never read over this Guide yet but I am interested as I am going to be Switching to Protoss shortly. I wanted to ask if you thought that reading this Guide would be a good idea as a way to soak up information in a hope to counter this sort of thing? I have trouble vs this and Odd forms of Mech as Protoss from time to time.
Now i have 81% in TvP and i’m in top platine, for this result i modified a little the build at 6 minutes and add a scout at 13 SCV. I have to be better in TvT (30%) and TvZ (40%) to be diamond. I make around 15 test match on this build with top diamonds players that know the build. The conclusion is clear, Protoss can counter the "hammer". The « Hammer » plays on Human faults of your opponent. 1 / Protoss dont scouts before observer and some time never. 2 / The Protoss do not know adapting versus several BO because terran just do one. 3 / A Protoss A clik / macro and storm and produce DT. They don’t micro their unity. Storm it’s not hard to do versus gold and platine player. 4 / The Protoss are too greedy and they think untouchable during the first 8 minutes of the game. 5 / The Protoss are persuaded They can all-in without being punished. In fact Hammer evaluates the actual level of Protoss.
On March 08 2015 14:14 GGzerG wrote: I have never read over this Guide yet but I am interested as I am going to be Switching to Protoss shortly. I wanted to ask if you thought that reading this Guide would be a good idea as a way to soak up information in a hope to counter this sort of thing? I have trouble vs this and Odd forms of Mech as Protoss from time to time.
More information is always a good thing! There are some thoughts about how to defend against the build on this thread but tbh, most of it is not accurate, biased or theorycrafting. I would recommend talking to a high level Protoss to get more definitive answers! Cheers.
On March 11 2015 18:10 Diamadoshikiller wrote: Now i have 81% in TvP and i’m in top platine, for this result i modified a little the build at 6 minutes and add a scout at 13 SCV. I have to be better in TvT (30%) and TvZ (40%) to be diamond. I make around 15 test match on this build with top diamonds players that know the build. The conclusion is clear, Protoss can counter the "hammer". The « Hammer » plays on Human faults of your opponent. 1 / Protoss dont scouts before observer and some time never. 2 / The Protoss do not know adapting versus several BO because terran just do one. 3 / A Protoss A clik / macro and storm and produce DT. They don’t micro their unity. Storm it’s not hard to do versus gold and platine player. 4 / The Protoss are too greedy and they think untouchable during the first 8 minutes of the game. 5 / The Protoss are persuaded They can all-in without being punished. In fact Hammer evaluates the actual level of Protoss.
Nice work with the 81%. I find the build to be effective, and at least on par with Protoss that know what I'm doing. It forces certain reactions that have to happen in order to defend, like robo, and chrono army instead of early worker chrono. Many Terran builds allow Protoss to be greedy and "hide" behind photonOC, this build does not. Glad you're having success with this style!
Played against this twice yesterday for the first time, lost in game one pretty handily even after holding off the first push and scouting the composition (a lot of macro mistakes on my part + engaging in a bad position hurt, not sure I would have held anyway).
Game 2 I did a counter immortal / warp prism drop after holding off the intial marauder widow mine that did ~5000+ resources worth of damage. Pretty much wrecked his timing. The other things I did were take a pretty fast third (after the initial marauder / widow mine push this build is forced to stay quite defensive) and keep my zealots in a seperate control group in order to flank the main army when the push finally happened. It was a pretty convincing win and I think even without the Immortal drop doing so much damage I wouldn't lose to this again. The hardest part was keeping my observers alive vs widow mines + vikings with no air units. I might try mixing in a few pheonix or sentries for hallucinated pheonix if I play vs this again. Definitely not something Protoss can play standard against!
(My composition in both games was zealot / immortal / archon / HT).
edit: Looking through the thread more, there seems to be some discussion about holding the initial pressure. I did so pretty easily both games with a zealot, stalker, msc and observer and good control, without delaying my nexus at all. After scouting the mostly marauder / widow mine composition I harassed his army with my MsC until it arrived at my base, at which point I already had an observer done and an immortal on the way. Maybe spent a couple chrono's on the robo that could have gone to probes, but I usually chrono the robo anyway.
On March 15 2015 05:20 Pursuit_ wrote: Played against this twice yesterday for the first time, lost in game one pretty handily even after holding off the first push and scouting the composition (a lot of macro mistakes on my part + engaging in a bad position hurt, not sure I would have held anyway).
Game 2 I did a counter immortal / warp prism drop after holding off the intial marauder widow mine that did ~5000+ resources worth of damage. Pretty much wrecked his timing. The other things I did were take a pretty fast third (after the initial marauder / widow mine push this build is forced to stay quite defensive) and keep my zealots in a seperate control group in order to flank the main army when the push finally happened. It was a pretty convincing win and I think even without the Immortal drop doing so much damage I wouldn't lose to this again. The hardest part was keeping my observers alive vs widow mines + vikings with no air units. I might try mixing in a few pheonix or sentries for hallucinated pheonix if I play vs this again. Definitely not something Protoss can play standard against!
(My composition in both games was zealot / immortal / archon / HT).
edit: Looking through the thread more, there seems to be some discussion about holding the initial pressure. I did so pretty easily both games with a zealot, stalker, msc and observer and good control, without delaying my nexus at all. After scouting the mostly marauder / widow mine composition I harassed his army with my MsC until it arrived at my base, at which point I already had an observer done and an immortal on the way. Maybe spent a couple chrono's on the robo that could have gone to probes, but I usually chrono the robo anyway.
Warp prism drops can be quite good against the build, but also can get shut down quite easy; depending on the timing, and also control of both parties.
Let me first start by saying thank you! and that this build made TvP fun for me again.
I've found that if you start the at 11 supply, and delay the 12th worker by just a few seconds, that you will have enough gas to start the factory and the tech lab at the same time, instead of waiting for gas to start the tech lab. That is, assuming you're doing the original version without the wall or marines
On March 22 2015 04:09 sneakyness wrote: Let me first start by saying thank you! and that this build made TvP fun for me again.
I've found that if you start the at 11 supply, and delay the 12th worker by just a few seconds, that you will have enough gas to start the factory and the tech lab at the same time, instead of waiting for gas to start the tech lab. That is, assuming you're doing the original version without the wall or marines
You're welcome! Always nice hearing about positive results
Having early marines is REALLY important to the build, as it helps deal with MSC/z/s pokes and proxy attacks.