[D] How To Defend 2 Base Blink Play TvP - Page 4
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This topic will be moderated VERY severely. Balance whining and effortless posting will be bannable. Keep the discussion constructive, and generally avoid bad posting as well as posting incorrect advice. Thanks. | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
1 pylon: If you can only spot a single pylon and 6 probes on gas, it's most likely a proxy stargate, but it could also be a super early proxy twillight. What I've seen Naniwa do, sometimes do it myself, and other players might do is build their second pylon at their natural to spot any ebay blocks... but yeah, this should be pretty rare on the ladder, so that's just one thing to keep in mind to avoid confusion. Basically, if there's no second pylon at his main or natural by the time your scv scout arrives, the protoss sent a probe out after building his gateway in order to proxy his second pylon for some reason. 2 pylons: If the protoss is going msc expand, you should be easily able to locate 2 pylons. The third pylon is only built after the nexus with this build, unless the protoss gets ebay blocked (I hope this bs doesn't get any more popular). That's because you don't need such an early third pylon, since you're cutting gateway units to get an early nexus. So if you see the protoss making anything besides a msc (including the zealot cancel trick, ofc) before his nexus, which in this case should be delayed anyway, and he didn't start his third pylon somewhere in his base by 3:40 at most, then he proxied his third pylon... or he's getting supply blocked. 3 pylons: An early third pylon indicates that the protoss is getting one or more units besides the mothership before the nexus, which could mean fear of an ebay block as explained above, perhaps a slower expansion (not very common, but on the ladder, you know... lol), or ofc a 1 base build. Spotting the twillight council: Assuming the protoss went msc expand, he will soon build his third pylon. The biggest priorities in this build are obviously the nexus and the msc. After that, the protoss will start wg, his second gas if he hasn't taken it yet, and a third pylon (in no particular order). In this build, the protoss player won't start his fourth pylon before his nexus completes, so the location of the twillight is to be determined by the 3 pylons that were previously spotted... maybe the protoss could proxy a pylon for this purpose, but building a 4th pylon in your base before the twillight council would be pretty unusual. I believe your biggest priority isn't to spot a twillight council asap, but rather whether there's a robo/forge or not. While some builds can get an early robo, most players will start their robo at 5:00 after their initial stalker. Most players build their robos by their main nexus, so it's a much easier structure to spot. The protoss can also build a forge at about 5:30-5:45 if he decides to delay his gateways That's also a signal that there'll be no blink all-in, though it could be a stargate build. If you see nothing but 1-3 gateways at this point, it's most likely something fishy. On March 24 2014 00:49 SC2John wrote: (...) so if you can't find any tech, it's probably either stargate or twilight (or some kind of wonky proxied gate allin lol). Don't reveal all our secrets! Nobody does gateway all ins anymore, you betrayer of protoss! NOBODY, ok? Good. | ||
Jazzman88
Canada2228 Posts
On March 24 2014 02:37 vhapter wrote: Since the topic of spotting pylons has been mentioned, I think it's worth going over the most common scenarios. If you send an scv scout, there are 3 possibilities: spotting 1 pylon, 2 pylons, or 3 pylons. 1 pylon: If you can only spot a single pylon and 6 probes on gas, it's most likely a proxy stargate, but it could also be a super early proxy twillight. What I've seen Naniwa do, sometimes do it myself, and other players might do is build their second pylon at their natural to spot any ebay blocks... but yeah, this should be pretty rare on the ladder, so that's just one thing to keep in mind to avoid confusion. Basically, if there's no second pylon at his main or natural by the time your scv scout arrives, the protoss sent a probe out after building his gateway in order to proxy his second pylon for some reason. 2 pylons: If the protoss is going msc expand, you should be easily able to locate 2 pylons. The third pylon is only built after the nexus with this build, unless the protoss gets ebay blocked (I hope this bs doesn't get any more popular). That's because you don't need such an early third pylon, since you're cutting gateway units to get an early nexus. So if you see the protoss making anything besides a msc (including the zealot cancel trick, ofc) before his nexus, which in this case should be delayed anyway, and he didn't start his third pylon somewhere in his base by 3:40 at most, then he proxied his third pylon... or he's getting supply blocked. 3 pylons: An early third pylon indicates that the protoss is getting one or more units besides the mothership before the nexus, which could mean fear of an ebay block as explained above, perhaps a slower expansion (not very common, but on the ladder, you know... lol), or ofc a 1 base build. Spotting the twillight council: Assuming the protoss went msc expand, he will soon build his third pylon. The biggest priorities in this build are obviously the nexus and the msc. After that, the protoss will start wg, his second gas if he hasn't taken it yet, and a third pylon (in no particular order). In this build, the protoss player won't start his fourth pylon before his nexus completes, so the location of the twillight is to be determined by the 3 pylons that were previously spotted... maybe the protoss could proxy a pylon for this purpose, but building a 4th pylon in your base before the twillight council would be pretty unusual. I believe your biggest priority isn't to spot a twillight council asap, but rather whether there's a robo/forge or not. While some builds can get an early robo, most players will start their robo at 5:00 after their initial stalker. Most players build their robos by their main nexus, so it's a much easier structure to spot. The protoss can also build a forge at about 5:30-5:45 if he decides to delay his gateways That's also a signal that there'll be no blink all-in, though it could be a stargate build. If you see nothing but 1-3 gateways at this point, it's most likely something fishy. I assume you're also accounting for gas expenditure and timing with this? It goes without saying that 2 gas done and only one Pylon powering both Gateway and CyberCore is proxy Stargate. As I am not a Protoss player, what's the logic behind delaying the third Pylon until after 2 gas and the Nexus? Isn't it more efficient and less likely to be E-bay blocked with 1 gas and then it times out better? Or is this a mindgame/middle-of-the-road play to make the follow up Twilight or Stargate tech more difficult to detect off of one initial scout. | ||
vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
On March 24 2014 04:28 Jazzman88 wrote: I assume you're also accounting for gas expenditure and timing with this? It goes without saying that 2 gas done and only one Pylon powering both Gateway and CyberCore is proxy Stargate. As I am not a Protoss player, what's the logic behind delaying the third Pylon until after 2 gas and the Nexus? Isn't it more efficient and less likely to be E-bay blocked with 1 gas and then it times out better? Or is this a mindgame/middle-of-the-road play to make the follow up Twilight or Stargate tech more difficult to detect off of one initial scout. To be honest, while it's not common, it's definitely possible to get a proxy twillight instead and go dts. I guess it's also possible to go 4 gate with a warp prism if you have only 3-4 probes on gas. But these things are not likely to happen very often, it's just a possibility you may want to account for. I'm not sure if I understand your second question, but I'll try to answer: Single gas mothership core expand allows a player to start a zealot slightly before 3 min, which is better against a blind 3 min mark ebay block. It also allows someone to expand earlier than a double gas msc expand build. Double gas msc expand with 4 probes on gas provides you with more gas early on (duh), which is useful if you're going stargate or twillight. This delays your expansion for a little while, leaving you more vulnerable to lateish ebay blocks. You can also go 2 gas msc expand into robo too. In other words, double gas is more ambiguous than single gas. But I've seen a game where Parting went gas first (lol) against Flash and proxied a fast stargate off of a single geyser, and I've also seen Dear go proxy stargate with a single gas mothership expand too, but this obviously delays your stargate, stalker, or wg. Delaying your third pylon allows you to take your Nexus earlier. If you need to let your zealot finish to avoid an ebay block, you can still make your third pylon as late as 3:40, which is after you would normally build your nexus, and still make a stalker + msc without getting supply blocked IF you save your 4th chrono boost (or cut 1 probe in time). That's because you will be 22/26 when your zealot finishes this way instead of 23/26, and still have 16 probes on minerals even after sending a probe down to build your expansion (or 15 on minerals if you're going double gas, but w/e). So basically, if your build is tight enough, there's no reason to get supply blocked becase you delayed your third pylon until you realized you were getting ebay blocked. It's also possible to do an interesting double gas msc expand that takes a very early nexus. CJherO does that a lot in PvT. He takes both geysers, but favors mineral income over probes on gas (for a while he leaves only 1 probe in each geysers). It's easier to understand if you watch his replay. I've seen him taking a 3:35 nexus in spite of opening double gas. It looks very interesting and allows for a bit more gas than a regular single gas expand by the time you build a tech structure. I'm not sure if this is exactly what you wanted to know, but I hope I answered your question even if indirectly (lol). | ||
Sircanis
7 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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Jazzman88
Canada2228 Posts
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AoWAraGorn
Germany6 Posts
- Units like Reapers: Can scout almost their entire base if it gets in, but let's face it: it can be shutdown and cannot always give you the information you need - Scan: As also mentioned earlier, if you are lucky the scan can reveal an important tech building from the Protoss, however, this is nowhere near realiable. Multiple Scans might do the job, yet this would equal a big investment from the terran, and still doesn't guarantee you safety. Yes you will get good and important information, certain tech buildings can still be built outside of the base. The only reliable things that a Scan can really reveal, is whether or not the Toss expanded for instance, gas timings and harvester count (which is still very nice, and can help you figuring out what is coming, you still might be in the dark about the kind of pressure though) - Marines/scvs: Will allow you do scout the map for pylons or proxy tech Let's say you scout a certain amount of gas having been mined, but you are still in the dark about the tech the toss player has chosen. People have said that the gas might tell you what you are up against yes, but thats only relevant, if you assume the other person is playing perfectly. Jumping to conclusions from gas count, might be useful in the very highest level of play, but I would say even low GM doesn't macro consistent enough to really make assumptions, given that the different builds from Protoss (especially allin builds) only differ by a very small margin. This is a key point in my opinion. Being forced to look at all the small and vague details to figure out the type of Protoss play, but then this might only be due to a macro mistake of your opponent. Once the blink stalker allin is in progress, and even if you can hold it for now, as mentioned ealier, I also always have the problem of knowing when exactly Protoss transitions. Again I think Terran lacks reliable scouting. Still the most valuable option to go for, is scan the third base and see if a Nexus is in Progress or not. Then again, the toss might be going for a hidden expansion, in which case you would need some kind of unit outside of your base (which can be tracked down earlier by stalkers) unless you want to use more scans. Counting Stalkers as proposed before isn't reliable, a good player might not show the true Stalker count on purpose, and hide them elsewhere. It happened to me before, that you think the protoss is stopping the aggression and expanding, due to lack of units. Once you salvage your bunkers and move out, you then get surprised by hidden units. Last, even if you hold against blink stalker, as mentioned earlier you can only really scout if the Protoss is getting a third, but not the tech he chooses to follow up his blink play. Even if you survive, there are many options that can catch you offguard, like a DT followup. This results in extra caution the Terran player has to take, and hence in more defensive investment (or in the worst case a completely wrong unit mix). Because of this, even if you hold the Blink Stalker allin, you might be behind in the macro game that follows. If you do mistakes in any of those stages (pre- allin, during the allin, and transitioning out of it), you can lose the game, even if you do good in the others. That's why on non-pro level especially, I personally think that builds like the Blink stalker allin are so strong and frustrating to play against. | ||
RyLai
United States477 Posts
On March 22 2014 05:27 Shalashaka wrote: The most obvious one (but difficult to check without a Reaper) is a 3rd Nexus coming down. After that, counting Stalkers. If the count isn't getting any bigger (blink stalkers almost never split up) then start a 3rd CC maybe? After that, what's toss's transitions? Some can use the Blink Stalkers to snipe turrets and follow up with a DT drop. Others can go Oracle, some can go Collo, others will do Templar. Identifying all of those without wasting too many scans is also key. And finally, we have to remember Terran will almost have certainly taken some damage from the pressure, especially on a map like Heavy Rain or Daedalus Point, where blinking into the main, then blinking out and pressuring the nat with a timewarp on the ramp is very very dangerous for the Terran player. Trying to use a lot of scans to check for all the above when you're already economically behind is less than ideal. I think way too much of the above hinges on just not losing the Reaper, so maybe be extremely conservative with it? That's all I can come with atm. The two main ones you'd have to worry about is DTs and HTs, it's just a better use of the tech you've already invested in. Going Colossi is like buying a house in Europe, then marrying someone who's stuck in South America because of Visa issues or something when you knew about it in advance, it's just not very intelligent. Templar Archives takes 50 seconds to make, and it takes ~80 seconds for Storm to finish (with 3 Chronoboosts). So that's 2 minutes and 10 seconds for your next tech to kick in. To go for Colossi, you need 65 seconds for the Robo, 65 for the Support Bay, then each Colossus takes 50 seconds with 3 Chronoboosts. For just one Colossus (spending Chronos perfectly), you need 3 minutes. Range takes an additional minute and 20 seconds over that without Chronoboost, and nobody Chronoboosts Colossus Range. So High Templar (which is the far better tech path anyways in my opinion) takes literally half the time to transition into. A Stargate takes 60 seconds to make, it takes 34 seconds to get out an Oracle with 2 Chronoboosts, and it'll take 30-50 seconds to get to the enemy mineral line from your base, depending on the map (whereas the other two don't have to attack to be ahead). So again, that's just over 2 minutes, like the High Templar, and probably around the time that Terran would hit your front if they break out. So on one end, you can do tons of damage to an undefended base, on the other you have nothing to deal with the bio at your front. The Oracle play sort of dies too if they threw up preemptive Turrets to defend a DT play. So overall, Oracles also seem like a bad way to go, even though it's the fastest tech you can go for so far. The last transition, DTs, takes 100 seconds for the Dark Shrine, 5 seconds to Warp in a DT, and ~20 seconds to walk to the base from a Proxy Pylon. So overall, again just over 2 minutes. A DT transition will delay the Terran push, if not outright kill them, by forcing them to put up Turrets, and forcing Scans all the way to your base as you send in 1 DT at a time to slowly pick off units. I wouldn't call it the most efficient way to spend your gas (especially not compared to HTs), but it really pulls a Terran down when they're already feeling behind. Then there's the cost of those 4 transitions. The Colossus transition is EXTREMELY expensive. You need 200/100 for the Robo, 200/200 for the Support Bay, 300/200 for each Colossi (600/400 before Range is done), and 200/200 for Colossus Range. The total cost for 2 Colossi with Range 4 minutes and 20 seconds after you start the transition is 1400/900. For Templar, it's 150/200, 100/300 for 2 Templar, 200/200 for Storm, and 200/200 for Zealot Legs which totals to 650/900. So you have enough money left over to get 7 more Zealots. Then Oracles take 150/150 each with 150/150 for the Stargate, so 300/300. DTs take 150/150 for the Dark Shrine and 125 for each DT (let's say 2), which is 400/400 total. Obviously, the Colossi and HTs are a long term investment, as you'll be using those for the rest of the game. The Oracles are very unlikely to be used frequently for the rest of the game, and the DTs are useful now and then, but not nearly as critical as HTs and Colossi. Off of 4 gasses, 900 gas takes just over 2 minutes to get. You can imagine how difficult it would be to get these critical tech units out with only 2 gasses running.Though, with only 2 gasses, they'd basically be all in anyways. So, in summary, the transition is most likely to be High Templar. The second most likely (though very unlikely) are DTs, then Stargate, then Robo. The only scenario where I see the Protoss going Robo is if they went 1 base Blink, expanded cause they did a ton of pressure, then teched to Colossi, simply because you absolutely need 4+ gasses to get Templars promptly. However, knowing all this, one hole seems to be the fact that rushing Templars means they won't have much room to fit in a Robo with Obsevers. So, if you hold the pressure then counter immediately, having a few Widow Mines would be uncontested except by Storms (and you'd need 2 Storms). So, I guess having well-positioned Widow Mines to defend Blink would be useful later on because the chances of them having detection to deal with them in your counterpush with those Widow Mines would be difficult unless they delayed their Templar Tech a bit. Maybe it's possible, but you would need to cut something. So yay for the Widow Mine buff! A glimmer of hope towards punishing 2 base Blink pressure and their transitions! | ||
Pursuit_
United States1329 Posts
On March 24 2014 12:43 RyLai wrote: The two main ones you'd have to worry about is DTs and HTs, it's just a better use of the tech you've already invested in. Going Colossi is like buying a house in Europe, then marrying someone who's stuck in South America because of Visa issues or something when you knew about it in advance, it's just not very intelligent. Templar Archives takes 50 seconds to make, and it takes ~80 seconds for Storm to finish (with 3 Chronoboosts). So that's 2 minutes and 10 seconds for your next tech to kick in. To go for Colossi, you need 65 seconds for the Robo, 65 for the Support Bay, then each Colossus takes 50 seconds with 3 Chronoboosts. For just one Colossus (spending Chronos perfectly), you need 3 minutes. Range takes an additional minute and 20 seconds over that without Chronoboost, and nobody Chronoboosts Colossus Range. So High Templar (which is the far better tech path anyways in my opinion) takes literally half the time to transition into. A Stargate takes 60 seconds to make, it takes 34 seconds to get out an Oracle with 2 Chronoboosts, and it'll take 30-50 seconds to get to the enemy mineral line from your base, depending on the map (whereas the other two don't have to attack to be ahead). So again, that's just over 2 minutes, like the High Templar, and probably around the time that Terran would hit your front if they break out. So on one end, you can do tons of damage to an undefended base, on the other you have nothing to deal with the bio at your front. The Oracle play sort of dies too if they threw up preemptive Turrets to defend a DT play. So overall, Oracles also seem like a bad way to go, even though it's the fastest tech you can go for so far. The last transition, DTs, takes 100 seconds for the Dark Shrine, 5 seconds to Warp in a DT, and ~20 seconds to walk to the base from a Proxy Pylon. So overall, again just over 2 minutes. A DT transition will delay the Terran push, if not outright kill them, by forcing them to put up Turrets, and forcing Scans all the way to your base as you send in 1 DT at a time to slowly pick off units. I wouldn't call it the most efficient way to spend your gas (especially not compared to HTs), but it really pulls a Terran down when they're already feeling behind. Then there's the cost of those 4 transitions. The Colossus transition is EXTREMELY expensive. You need 200/100 for the Robo, 200/200 for the Support Bay, 300/200 for each Colossi (600/400 before Range is done), and 200/200 for Colossus Range. The total cost for 2 Colossi with Range 4 minutes and 20 seconds after you start the transition is 1400/900. For Templar, it's 150/200, 100/300 for 2 Templar, 200/200 for Storm, and 200/200 for Zealot Legs which totals to 650/900. So you have enough money left over to get 7 more Zealots. Then Oracles take 150/150 each with 150/150 for the Stargate, so 300/300. DTs take 150/150 for the Dark Shrine and 125 for each DT (let's say 2), which is 400/400 total. Obviously, the Colossi and HTs are a long term investment, as you'll be using those for the rest of the game. The Oracles are very unlikely to be used frequently for the rest of the game, and the DTs are useful now and then, but not nearly as critical as HTs and Colossi. Off of 4 gasses, 900 gas takes just over 2 minutes to get. You can imagine how difficult it would be to get these critical tech units out with only 2 gasses running.Though, with only 2 gasses, they'd basically be all in anyways. So, in summary, the transition is most likely to be High Templar. The second most likely (though very unlikely) are DTs, then Stargate, then Robo. The only scenario where I see the Protoss going Robo is if they went 1 base Blink, expanded cause they did a ton of pressure, then teched to Colossi, simply because you absolutely need 4+ gasses to get Templars promptly. However, knowing all this, one hole seems to be the fact that rushing Templars means they won't have much room to fit in a Robo with Obsevers. So, if you hold the pressure then counter immediately, having a few Widow Mines would be uncontested except by Storms (and you'd need 2 Storms). So, I guess having well-positioned Widow Mines to defend Blink would be useful later on because the chances of them having detection to deal with them in your counterpush with those Widow Mines would be difficult unless they delayed their Templar Tech a bit. Maybe it's possible, but you would need to cut something. So yay for the Widow Mine buff! A glimmer of hope towards punishing 2 base Blink pressure and their transitions! Collosi might be an expensive transition, but it's also a very common one because Blink Stalkers synergize very well with Collosi and Protoss typically has 6-12+ Blink Stalkers left over when transitioning out of 2 base blink. While it's true that HT and/or Chargelot Archon (Occassionally with DT rather than HT) is the most common follow up to 2 base blink, Collosi is done very often too. I've never even seen an Oracle follow up (any pro game links / ect?). | ||
MrInocence
United States172 Posts
Unless the production time bottlenecks your barracks too much, but the information gleaned (if you spot an archive or no 3rd base etc) would be essential? Scans only come after energy accrual and you only get them at certain time intervals, the reaper can guide your scanning both by what it sees and what it doesn't see | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
Blink > oracle isn't a thing, and blink > dt is either a desperate measure when you are behind, or something you do when blink wins you the game but the terran wont leave, so you kind of tell him to gtfo. | ||
Jazzman88
Canada2228 Posts
On March 24 2014 17:21 MrInocence wrote: Just a quick suggestion, why not remake the lost reaper to check what the Protoss follow up is(tech/3rd/upgrades)? The reaper, even if shot down eventually, can help identify where to scan to figure out the follow up rather than blind scanning. Unless the production time bottlenecks your barracks too much, but the information gleaned (if you spot an archive or no 3rd base etc) would be essential? Scans only come after energy accrual and you only get them at certain time intervals, the reaper can guide your scanning both by what it sees and what it doesn't see The traditional reasoning for not building that follow-up Reaper is that Terran is trying to ration their gas a lot when defending Blink. You need a lot of minerals to build the appropriate amount of Bunkers, plus your gas is pretty much all sunk into getting Stim, Marauders, and Medivacs. I would much rather have to Scan twice than have only one Medivac for an additional minute of game time. Even when not playing versus Blink, if your build is tight and gearing for the 10-11 minute window with bio+Medivac pressure, you should never really have the opening to get an additional Reaper without adversely affecting either Medivacs or upgrades. Plus, they build almost twice as slowly as Marines, meaning for each Reaper you build, it's two less Marines in your army plus at least 1 less Marauder or Medivac. | ||
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On March 24 2014 17:36 Teoita wrote: On topic of transitions: the only two that are reasonable are HT (and chargelot/archon variants; the specific details change from player to player and game to game) and Colossi. Both are reasonable, and both can be done easily. The Colossus transition being slower isn't an issue because a) many blink>colo builds get a robo somewhat fast (as in, while the pressure is going on) and b) your stalkers buy time for the tech to kick in. Blink > oracle isn't a thing, and blink > dt is either a desperate measure when you are behind, or something you do when blink wins you the game but the terran wont leave, so you kind of tell him to gtfo. Agreed, I've seen both HT and colossi work just fine. And it's not even hard to fit a robo + observers/immortals in there when going HT either (you just can't take a stupid early 3rd). The only other real threat is DTs, which, like you said, are fairly uncommon. That said, I don't think Terran should be worrying so much about what TECH the Protoss is going for afterwards because you can't really have ghosts or vikings out that early anyway and your initial counterattack push will force the Protoss to reveal his AoE. Terrans should be focusing on 3 things concerning followups: 1) when the Protoss takes his natural gases, 2) if the Protoss takes a 3rd, and 3) if the Protoss is going single or double upgrades. 1) When Protoss takes natural gases Knowing the timing of the natural gases allows you to gauge how heavy your opponent is committing to blink. Generally the natural gases signal that the Protoss will not be warping in anymore units and will instead be putting all resources toward teching and/or economy. Timings can range to before the stalker attack (meaning a very light commitment to pressure) to when the Protoss is convinced that his pressure has failed and is forced to transition. 2) If the Protoss takes a 3rd Protoss players can't easily take a 3rd, contrary to popular belief. Most of the time, taking an early third behind blink pressure forces them to sacrifice something else in order to get it. For a HT transition, for instance, it's impossible to get an early 3rd, double upgrades, a robo for observers, and fast HT all at the same time. Again, whatever the transition is, knowing if there is a 3rd base is far more valuable information as it actually affects your decision making directly. 3) If the Protoss is going single or double upgrades In a way, this is a finer point, but it still deserves mentioning. Whenever Protoss goes double upgrades, the Terran is on a bit of a timer to do damage or suffer an insanely powerful 3-3 attack. I'm not sure exactly what the proper response is, but I feel like Terrans playing against double upgrades need to either do some massive counter damage with drops or a frontal assault or they need to focus on tech and perhaps grab a faster 4th. Anyways, these are just some of my thoughts concerning scouting the Protoss followup. I don't think scouting for HT vs. colossi really matters that much compared to a lot of other things. | ||
vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
So whenever you choose to transition, teching to storm is definitely faster than going colossi without having a robo. I believe this is why storm is a more common transition at pro level - it's just more accessible. Getting a robo during the push doesn't make it necessarily "faster" than the templar route either, because you could also make a templar archives during the push anyway. But it does make the transition smoother and safer. | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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Liox
Germany47 Posts
I'm only a gold terran so I can't possibly grasp everything you guys do (especially the startpost, I find it most difficult to not getting raped by focusfire on the bunker I am not repairing at that moment). I just have one little suggestion on my mind and I'll try to commit this to the discussion: Actually I remember something day9 has said very often and that is "I like when players make small adjustments". If there is a problem with scouting if the protoss takes a third or not after the pressure all-in, why don't we just make the small adjustment, take out 1 marine/reaper/scv and copy the protoss. We hide this little guy somewhere near the potential third on the map or maybe to make this nearly effortless just let it sit at one of the potential thirds. This actually allows us to have vision over one of the possible locations and also to scout a potential third and I'm sure you guys know the timings for that third after blink right? | ||
Trustworthy-Tony
Tanzania187 Posts
On March 24 2014 08:09 AoWAraGorn wrote: The biggest problem of all is first, that you cannot reliably scout the type of allin (or pressure) that you face. Reliably meaning, that you can scout it 100% if you take all the steps necessary. What are the options of scouting as a terran vs Protoss early in the game: - Units like Reapers: Can scout almost their entire base if it gets in, but let's face it: it can be shutdown and cannot always give you the information you need - Scan: As also mentioned earlier, if you are lucky the scan can reveal an important tech building from the Protoss, however, this is nowhere near realiable. Multiple Scans might do the job, yet this would equal a big investment from the terran, and still doesn't guarantee you safety. Yes you will get good and important information, certain tech buildings can still be built outside of the base. The only reliable things that a Scan can really reveal, is whether or not the Toss expanded for instance, gas timings and harvester count (which is still very nice, and can help you figuring out what is coming, you still might be in the dark about the kind of pressure though) - Marines/scvs: Will allow you do scout the map for pylons or proxy tech Let's say you scout a certain amount of gas having been mined, but you are still in the dark about the tech the toss player has chosen. People have said that the gas might tell you what you are up against yes, but thats only relevant, if you assume the other person is playing perfectly. Jumping to conclusions from gas count, might be useful in the very highest level of play, but I would say even low GM doesn't macro consistent enough to really make assumptions, given that the different builds from Protoss (especially allin builds) only differ by a very small margin. This is a key point in my opinion. Being forced to look at all the small and vague details to figure out the type of Protoss play, but then this might only be due to a macro mistake of your opponent. Once the blink stalker allin is in progress, and even if you can hold it for now, as mentioned ealier, I also always have the problem of knowing when exactly Protoss transitions. Again I think Terran lacks reliable scouting. Still the most valuable option to go for, is scan the third base and see if a Nexus is in Progress or not. Then again, the toss might be going for a hidden expansion, in which case you would need some kind of unit outside of your base (which can be tracked down earlier by stalkers) unless you want to use more scans. Counting Stalkers as proposed before isn't reliable, a good player might not show the true Stalker count on purpose, and hide them elsewhere. It happened to me before, that you think the protoss is stopping the aggression and expanding, due to lack of units. Once you salvage your bunkers and move out, you then get surprised by hidden units. Last, even if you hold against blink stalker, as mentioned earlier you can only really scout if the Protoss is getting a third, but not the tech he chooses to follow up his blink play. Even if you survive, there are many options that can catch you offguard, like a DT followup. This results in extra caution the Terran player has to take, and hence in more defensive investment (or in the worst case a completely wrong unit mix). Because of this, even if you hold the Blink Stalker allin, you might be behind in the macro game that follows. If you do mistakes in any of those stages (pre- allin, during the allin, and transitioning out of it), you can lose the game, even if you do good in the others. That's why on non-pro level especially, I personally think that builds like the Blink stalker allin are so strong and frustrating to play against. This. How to defend Blink all-in or pressure is trivial and Terran will come out ahead. How to gain the scouting information in particular how much Protoss commits and when and how Protoss transitions, on the other hand, is difficult thanks to the nature of fog of war. | ||
vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
You guys are making it sound much harder than it actually is. It's definitely harder to scout the push coming than it is to send an scv or marine to look for tech structure when there should be literally no units at home (if it's a real all in). | ||
alpenrahm
Germany628 Posts
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