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I admit, i love to cheese. I love cheese in my fridge, and I love rubbing that smelly mass into peoples faces. And, likewise, i play TvP.
Getting bored with the standart MMM and having to deal with all the shitty allins Protosses on the ladder throw at me pissed me off like mad and thus I thought: you wanna cheese me chap? me cheese you first! Europe styLE.
so without further ado the bo:
10 depo 12rax ----> constant reaper production, the scv building this builds another one 12gas 15oc 16rax (ebay before cc if stargate spotted) cc ----> more ccs as money allows 3rd rax / ebay ----> more rax
expand as money allows, depots as needed
edit: I am getting the feeling that a lot of people seem to misunderstand the general idea of this "cheese" opening. I am not cheesing in terms trying to kill my opponent! (eg i open 2 rax because there is no way that an early cc could actually benefit me more then the second barracks. Just because reapers are building so damn slowly) I am looking to go into the macro game while maintaining an economic advantage, even if i don´t kill off any probes at all. I also don´t care as much about the viability of the opening but more so over how much FUN it is to play around with a huge reaper army in the midgame. Dodging storms, catching opponents out of position and having control over the game in general are where this strat is really juicy at. NOT the wanky opening.
and now some general ideas on why this is a good build, what it is weak against, how to play it out and what my goals are.
1. growing the reaper cloud while forcing and picking off stalkers. very rarely will a toss allow me access to his probes. MSC and sim city prevent this.
2. stalkers are ridiculously expensive. Every time Toss builds a stalker and I get to trade it for 1 reaper (which happens quite frequently) i not only win 75 minerals, but i also force toss to rebuild the stalker count. This constantly eats away at his ability to build infrastructure eventually leading to a vast advantage in buildings!
3. Reapers regenerate back to full hp in about 30 seconds. This intervall can be used quite well to build structures back at home, while not missing damage potential. Also i won´t ever need to build Medivacs.
4. I need to be very careful about my gas spending. Minerals wont ever be a limiting factor, but gas is. 2 gysers allow for 5 rax reaper production. This means that i can support 5 rax per base, which i am always aiming for. Addons are not to be build, simply because the gas is better spent on just growing my reaper cloud. likewise, i need to be careful about when i can afford to get my upgrades. 1-1 = 4 reapers which is quite a lot in the early game. I prefer to get 1-1 on 1 ebay, and only go up to 2 ebays for my 2-2.
5. scouting needs to be done early on with the first 2 reapers. usually i will send my first reaper to scout the ENTIRE map, i dont want to be suprised by oracles, and scout his ENTIRE base with my first 2 reapers ( this guarrantees a scout. he won´t be able to pick off both)
6. my first little timing is when i hit 3 reapers. I can start picking off stalkers and zealots. commiting is a nono tho. its better to not lose a reaper then to trade at this point.
7. i want to pin protoss in his base. I cannot deny his natural, but i can force quite a lot of gateway units. Protoss will be hardpressed to get his tech out, be it colossi or blink or whatever, i will usually have my 3rd base up by the time his tech finishes up.
8. I need to respond to his Techchoices in the following way: Stargate ---> oracle / fenix ---------> i have to abandon mass reaper for now and get some units that can shoot up. That means either stim + marines or some cute mine+ turret play. I can continue reaper production as soon as i have enough vikings to take care of his air threat Robo ---> colossi i just get my starport after i started my 2-2. then its constant viking production. The reapers just keep doing what they do. i won´t be able to deny a 3rd once there is a second colossus out, regardless of howmany reapers i have. Council ---> blink / archon / storm I just ignore this and make more reapers and win with sheer numbers and micro.
9. at any point in the game, i can decide to revert back into MMM, aslong as i get the stim.
ok thats about it. I have some replays that you could check out even if its just for the lulz. Please do not take this too seriously. Just have fun with a 150 supply reaper army
replay 1 replay 2 replay 3 Update Vs 1 base 3 gate robo closest game so far. Zeal MSC poke - exe + STG
oh and, if you are wondering why im not uploading any replays where i lost. that is not because i am an arrogant asshole ( which i of course am ) but more due to me not yet having lost a single game with this build. enjoy!
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hmm, i feel like its a bad idea to invest into too many stalkers. In a real game, you wouldn´t have any sentries for guardianshield and forcefields to deter a followup push (see ATC S3 XMG vs MYI Jjakji vs lilbow). on the other hand, you need atleast 2 stalkers and a MSC since 1 can be picked off quite easily with 3 reapers. the most trouble you can give a reapering player is probably by just building an intelligent simcity that accomplishes 3 things: 1. you want to be able deny any access to your mineral line. 2. you want to have a place where you can hide your tech from the reaper scout ( usually somewhere behind your mineral line). 3. you want to get 2 sentries relatively early as they allow for forcefields against the reapers and have utility in the midgame.
the most important thing against reapers though is to have a good eye on your mothership core. Just the threat of the time bubble is often enough to scare the reapers away!
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Wouldn't it be a good counter for the Toss to transition into 3-4 gate blink all in upon scouting this since the Terran won't have many marines/marauders due to all the reaper production?
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On March 25 2014 06:48 Salient wrote: Wouldn't it be a good counter for the Toss to transition into 3-4 gate blink all in upon scouting this since the Terran won't have many marines/marauders due to all the reaper production?
i think the point is to win before ur opponent can develop a counter.
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On March 25 2014 06:48 Salient wrote: Wouldn't it be a good counter for the Toss to transition into 3-4 gate blink all in upon scouting this since the Terran won't have many marines/marauders due to all the reaper production? As written, you never get the unit count up.
What I'm curious about, how well does this do against micro. I think Protoss stacks better than mass Reaper, a Guardian shield kills 50%-66% of your DPS, and I think Protoss can sacrifice some probes. Remember, in your healing downtime, Protoss recharges.
I think this strategy works the first time somebody faces it, the times after that, not so much...
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On March 25 2014 07:47 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2014 06:48 Salient wrote: Wouldn't it be a good counter for the Toss to transition into 3-4 gate blink all in upon scouting this since the Terran won't have many marines/marauders due to all the reaper production? As written, you never get the unit count up. What I'm curious about, how well does this do against micro. I think Protoss stacks better than mass Reaper, a Guardian shield kills 50%-66% of your DPS, and I think Protoss can sacrifice some probes. Remember, in your healing downtime, Protoss recharges. I think this strategy works the first time somebody faces it, the times after that, not so much...
i am curious about that aswell. But, what i would like to mention here, is that the reaper cloud is much denser then a stalker sentry ball. Its the same as with stimmed marines. You get to a point, where it starts to become troublesome for the protoss to get enough surface area to unleash his full dps, where as you can still fight with your entire army just because reapers are very small units. Another cool thing is that, at higher numbers but still pre colossus, you can have enough reapers to oneshot stalkers while toss has to focusfire aswell but is just way less efficient at it.
btw, check the replay there are games where i didnt even kill any probes at all!
as for guardianshield: stalkers have 1 armor. reapers deal 4 x 2 damage thus 3x2(per hp but still 4x2 on the shields) guardianshield cuts that to 2x2 for shields and 1x2 for hp. Sentries are prime targets and need to be sniped. Or an active guardianshield has to be avoided.
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On March 25 2014 06:48 Salient wrote: Wouldn't it be a good counter for the Toss to transition into 3-4 gate blink all in upon scouting this since the Terran won't have many marines/marauders due to all the reaper production?
actually, i wont have any marine marauder production. but as soon as you leave your base, its a race and Terran will always win that.
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I have had some success in diamond league on heavy rain doing this sort of thing but with a slightly different build. I usually go gas first, then cut scvs production for a second rax on 14 supply. After you reactor both raxes you are pumping 4 reapers at a time. Usually I don't outright kill the protoss but you can pin them in their base while you double expand. Against 1 base all-ins its really strong since you can backstab the toss with your reapers as soon as he moves out and you can just mass bunker at home with marines and repair. And with mass reaper running around his base there is no way you can get blindsided by hidden tech.
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I hated playing against this. Now I just proxy oracles every game to avenge previous losses.
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On March 25 2014 08:00 alpenrahm wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2014 07:47 SC2Toastie wrote:On March 25 2014 06:48 Salient wrote: Wouldn't it be a good counter for the Toss to transition into 3-4 gate blink all in upon scouting this since the Terran won't have many marines/marauders due to all the reaper production? As written, you never get the unit count up. What I'm curious about, how well does this do against micro. I think Protoss stacks better than mass Reaper, a Guardian shield kills 50%-66% of your DPS, and I think Protoss can sacrifice some probes. Remember, in your healing downtime, Protoss recharges. I think this strategy works the first time somebody faces it, the times after that, not so much... i am curious about that aswell. But, what i would like to mention here, is that the reaper cloud is much denser then a stalker sentry ball. Its the same as with stimmed marines. You get to a point, where it starts to become troublesome for the protoss to get enough surface area to unleash his full dps, where as you can still fight with your entire army just because reapers are very small units. Another cool thing is that, at higher numbers but still pre colossus, you can have enough reapers to oneshot stalkers while toss has to focusfire aswell but is just way less efficient at it. btw, check the replay there are games where i didnt even kill any probes at all! as for guardianshield: stalkers have 1 armor. reapers deal 4 x 2 damage thus 3x2(per hp but still 4x2 on the shields) guardianshield cuts that to 2x2 for shields and 1x2 for hp. Sentries are prime targets and need to be sniped. Or an active guardianshield has to be avoided. What I mean, is that you can have more DPS/Area, but Toss doesn't ahve to give youi that area. You're jumping into the fight and Protoss picks where the fight happens.
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On March 25 2014 08:07 Clarty wrote: I have had some success in diamond league on heavy rain doing this sort of thing but with a slightly different build. I usually go gas first, then cut scvs production for a second rax on 14 supply. After you reactor both raxes you are pumping 4 reapers at a time. Usually I don't outright kill the protoss but you can pin them in their base while you double expand. Against 1 base all-ins its really strong since you can backstab the toss with your reapers as soon as he moves out and you can just mass bunker at home with marines and repair. And with mass reaper running around his base there is no way you can get blindsided by hidden tech.
♥ good guy backstabber! now try mass reaper! you ll be suprised how well that actually works in diamond
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On March 25 2014 08:28 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2014 08:00 alpenrahm wrote:On March 25 2014 07:47 SC2Toastie wrote:On March 25 2014 06:48 Salient wrote: Wouldn't it be a good counter for the Toss to transition into 3-4 gate blink all in upon scouting this since the Terran won't have many marines/marauders due to all the reaper production? As written, you never get the unit count up. What I'm curious about, how well does this do against micro. I think Protoss stacks better than mass Reaper, a Guardian shield kills 50%-66% of your DPS, and I think Protoss can sacrifice some probes. Remember, in your healing downtime, Protoss recharges. I think this strategy works the first time somebody faces it, the times after that, not so much... i am curious about that aswell. But, what i would like to mention here, is that the reaper cloud is much denser then a stalker sentry ball. Its the same as with stimmed marines. You get to a point, where it starts to become troublesome for the protoss to get enough surface area to unleash his full dps, where as you can still fight with your entire army just because reapers are very small units. Another cool thing is that, at higher numbers but still pre colossus, you can have enough reapers to oneshot stalkers while toss has to focusfire aswell but is just way less efficient at it. btw, check the replay there are games where i didnt even kill any probes at all! as for guardianshield: stalkers have 1 armor. reapers deal 4 x 2 damage thus 3x2(per hp but still 4x2 on the shields) guardianshield cuts that to 2x2 for shields and 1x2 for hp. Sentries are prime targets and need to be sniped. Or an active guardianshield has to be avoided. What I mean, is that you can have more DPS/Area, but Toss doesn't ahve to give youi that area. You're jumping into the fight and Protoss picks where the fight happens.
well, im not so sure about protoss picking where the engagements happen. they have to split their army between main and natu, it really isn´t so simple for them. And im not stupid either, i wont commit to fights where i am clearly outgunned. from my experience, the game just slowly drags itself on with some small skirmishes happening but never a major fight.
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how do you not die if they send their mothership core to your base?
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The incredibly common ideas of (1) Get a mothership core for defense and (2) Open Oracle before or after expanding present great problems that you have not addressed with discussion or good replays in your post.
The only other option would be to accept a hefty economic penalty by immediately switching to marines and hopefully having 6 before his oracle comes (let's say his foolishly loses the stalker). This opening is much inferior to expanding and then adding on rax in that situation. With chronos and strategic retreats of the stalker to mineral line (outranges, isn't easily bursted down with careful control), you aren't guaranteed high damage.
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On March 25 2014 11:00 Danglars wrote: The incredibly common ideas of (1) Get a mothership core for defense and (2) Open Oracle before or after expanding present great problems that you have not addressed with discussion or good replays in your post.
The only other option would be to accept a hefty economic penalty by immediately switching to marines and hopefully having 6 before his oracle comes (let's say his foolishly loses the stalker). This opening is much inferior to expanding and then adding on rax in that situation. With chronos and strategic retreats of the stalker to mineral line (outranges, isn't easily bursted down with careful control), you aren't guaranteed high damage.
well, im confident that i would be able to scout a proxy stargate and deny its production! and as for replays, i just didn´t encounter oracle play yet ^^ but i assume he wont have a MSC and an oracle and an expansion and enough stalkers to deal with my 3 reapers so his losses should be pretty even to mine with propper micro. But this is all theory craft, i have no idea how it would actually play out... maybe i could somehow get turrets in time? maybe he just dies? maybe i just bo lose? who knows ...
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On March 25 2014 10:22 ajdodge16 wrote: how do you not die if they send their mothership core to your base?
i kill probes, and make 3 marines at home. also can just put 2 scvs on autorepair. But the problem just doesn´t occur nobody in a sane state of mind will send out his MSC vs an early 2 rax reaper.
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United States4883 Posts
The way I deal with mass reapers is just going immortals + blink and go immortal/blink stalker allin ~10:00. Reapers cannot base trade or defend efficiently enough to win. Also, as has been pointed out, any air units at all in the Terran main end the game.
Mass reapers in TvP is cute but in no way viable.
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On March 25 2014 11:55 SC2John wrote: The way I deal with mass reapers is just going immortals + blink and go immortal/blink stalker allin ~10:00. Reapers cannot base trade or defend efficiently enough to win. Also, as has been pointed out, any air units at all in the Terran main end the game.
Mass reapers in TvP is cute but in no way viable.
Period!
i d like to point out though, that reapers + 20 scvs will probably deflect your all in. Just because scvs are pound per pound stronger then stalkers.
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On March 25 2014 08:27 playa wrote: I hated playing against this. Now I just proxy oracles every game to avenge previous losses. actually i do a variant of this build with an ebay in time for an optional turret that finishes ~5:15-20
i do 11/13 or 12/14 rax (11 gas or 12 gas respectively) and it works out really well for me. i can get a quick +1 and go for a cs push after expansion, followed up by a delayed medivac + stim timing while taking 3rd. or i can go for a +1 stim timing that doesn't give me the earlier poke but is a strong allin.
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United States4883 Posts
On March 25 2014 11:55 alpenrahm wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2014 11:55 SC2John wrote: The way I deal with mass reapers is just going immortals + blink and go immortal/blink stalker allin ~10:00. Reapers cannot base trade or defend efficiently enough to win. Also, as has been pointed out, any air units at all in the Terran main end the game.
Mass reapers in TvP is cute but in no way viable. Period! i d like to point out though, that reapers + 20 scvs will probably deflect your all in. Just because scvs are pound per pound stronger then stalkers.
Not at all. Blink stalkers/immortals are far superior to SCVs, especially when you can blink micro and use FF. And no amount of bunkers will save the Terran from 4 immortals.
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On March 25 2014 05:03 SatedSC2 wrote: I'm not so sure about the viability of mass Reaper in the lategame,
I concur, mass reaper late game couldn't deal with colossus properly. However, mass turrets and OCs can be built with the excess minerals.
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I use this strategy from a friend of mine for 8 month now and it has been very effective so far. It's not "mass reaper" but you can start with a healthy 8-9 reaper squad. This is very effective because you put constant pressure and force protoss into defensive position from the begining of the game.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/409905-3-rax-reaper-opening-in-all-mu
The thread is a little bit old and outdated but the build is still the same. There is adaptation to be made to defend oracle / blink allin but I had a lot of sucess with it deflecting protoss allins because of the amazing amount of scout this strategy provides.
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On March 25 2014 14:12 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2014 11:55 alpenrahm wrote:On March 25 2014 11:55 SC2John wrote: The way I deal with mass reapers is just going immortals + blink and go immortal/blink stalker allin ~10:00. Reapers cannot base trade or defend efficiently enough to win. Also, as has been pointed out, any air units at all in the Terran main end the game.
Mass reapers in TvP is cute but in no way viable. Period! i d like to point out though, that reapers + 20 scvs will probably deflect your all in. Just because scvs are pound per pound stronger then stalkers. Not at all. Blink stalkers/immortals are far superior to SCVs, especially when you can blink micro and use FF. And no amount of bunkers will save the Terran from 4 immortals.
Are you doing this all-in off a 1 gate expand? Because in my experience with mass reapers is that you force lots of stalkers from protoss if they don't want to lose straight away and as a result their tech/production is pretty delayed.
http://drop.sc/377490
In this game against a masters toss although I do almost no economic damage the indirect damage I do to his tech+production sets him far back enough that I am able to play out the game and eventually win. He is on 3 gates until about 9 minutes when he starts his twilight+forge. Admittedly he was floating a lot of gas so its likely that he could have teched faster if he was playing better but I don't see realistically how a protoss can have 4 immortals+lots of blink stalkers at 10 minutes while dealing with reaper harass leading up to that point.
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On March 25 2014 20:15 Clarty wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2014 14:12 SC2John wrote:On March 25 2014 11:55 alpenrahm wrote:On March 25 2014 11:55 SC2John wrote: The way I deal with mass reapers is just going immortals + blink and go immortal/blink stalker allin ~10:00. Reapers cannot base trade or defend efficiently enough to win. Also, as has been pointed out, any air units at all in the Terran main end the game.
Mass reapers in TvP is cute but in no way viable. Period! i d like to point out though, that reapers + 20 scvs will probably deflect your all in. Just because scvs are pound per pound stronger then stalkers. Not at all. Blink stalkers/immortals are far superior to SCVs, especially when you can blink micro and use FF. And no amount of bunkers will save the Terran from 4 immortals. Are you doing this all-in off a 1 gate expand? Because in my experience with mass reapers is that you force lots of stalkers from protoss if they don't want to lose straight away and as a result their tech/production is pretty delayed. http://drop.sc/377490In this game against a masters toss although I do almost no economic damage the indirect damage I do to his tech+production sets him far back enough that I am able to play out the game and eventually win. He is on 3 gates until about 9 minutes when he starts his twilight+forge. Admittedly he was floating a lot of gas so its likely that he could have teched faster if he was playing better but I don't see realistically how a protoss can have 4 immortals+lots of blink stalkers at 10 minutes while dealing with reaper harass leading up to that point.
thx for the backup.
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On March 25 2014 14:25 MrBarryObama wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2014 05:03 SatedSC2 wrote: I'm not so sure about the viability of mass Reaper in the lategame, I concur, mass reaper late game couldn't deal with colossus properly. However, mass turrets and OCs can be built with the excess minerals.
i have a lot of excess production time on my starport ... for vikings. guess those are ok against colossus?
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On March 25 2014 14:12 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2014 11:55 alpenrahm wrote:On March 25 2014 11:55 SC2John wrote: The way I deal with mass reapers is just going immortals + blink and go immortal/blink stalker allin ~10:00. Reapers cannot base trade or defend efficiently enough to win. Also, as has been pointed out, any air units at all in the Terran main end the game.
Mass reapers in TvP is cute but in no way viable. Period! i d like to point out though, that reapers + 20 scvs will probably deflect your all in. Just because scvs are pound per pound stronger then stalkers. Not at all. Blink stalkers/immortals are far superior to SCVs, especially when you can blink micro and use FF. And no amount of bunkers will save the Terran from 4 immortals.
must. not. build. bunker. ever.
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United States4883 Posts
On March 25 2014 20:15 Clarty wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2014 14:12 SC2John wrote:On March 25 2014 11:55 alpenrahm wrote:On March 25 2014 11:55 SC2John wrote: The way I deal with mass reapers is just going immortals + blink and go immortal/blink stalker allin ~10:00. Reapers cannot base trade or defend efficiently enough to win. Also, as has been pointed out, any air units at all in the Terran main end the game.
Mass reapers in TvP is cute but in no way viable. Period! i d like to point out though, that reapers + 20 scvs will probably deflect your all in. Just because scvs are pound per pound stronger then stalkers. Not at all. Blink stalkers/immortals are far superior to SCVs, especially when you can blink micro and use FF. And no amount of bunkers will save the Terran from 4 immortals. Are you doing this all-in off a 1 gate expand? Because in my experience with mass reapers is that you force lots of stalkers from protoss if they don't want to lose straight away and as a result their tech/production is pretty delayed. http://drop.sc/377490In this game against a masters toss although I do almost no economic damage the indirect damage I do to his tech+production sets him far back enough that I am able to play out the game and eventually win. He is on 3 gates until about 9 minutes when he starts his twilight+forge. Admittedly he was floating a lot of gas so its likely that he could have teched faster if he was playing better but I don't see realistically how a protoss can have 4 immortals+lots of blink stalkers at 10 minutes while dealing with reaper harass leading up to that point.
Yeah, he's really bad and overreacted.
1) 9 scout WHATTTT lol 2) completely skipped a tech building; you don't need 3 gateways that early, even against reaper harass 3) late MSC/late photon overcharge and time warp
In a more standard game, the Protoss isn't going to put himself behind so economically or completely skip tech. Robo goes down at 5:00, constant immortals (55 sec build time + chronoboost) gives you 4 immortals by 10:00. An immortal + ~4 stalkers can comfortably defend a mineral line, especially if you have a photon overcharge or time warp available. Also, the earliest possible oracle arrives at 5:15. So it's great and all that you have an ebay done at that time, but you're going to lose ~8 workers minimum anyway because you don't scout; it's fine to take blind losses, but don't assert that proxy oracle is counterable with this build because it's not.
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On March 26 2014 01:14 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2014 20:15 Clarty wrote:On March 25 2014 14:12 SC2John wrote:On March 25 2014 11:55 alpenrahm wrote:On March 25 2014 11:55 SC2John wrote: The way I deal with mass reapers is just going immortals + blink and go immortal/blink stalker allin ~10:00. Reapers cannot base trade or defend efficiently enough to win. Also, as has been pointed out, any air units at all in the Terran main end the game.
Mass reapers in TvP is cute but in no way viable. Period! i d like to point out though, that reapers + 20 scvs will probably deflect your all in. Just because scvs are pound per pound stronger then stalkers. Not at all. Blink stalkers/immortals are far superior to SCVs, especially when you can blink micro and use FF. And no amount of bunkers will save the Terran from 4 immortals. Are you doing this all-in off a 1 gate expand? Because in my experience with mass reapers is that you force lots of stalkers from protoss if they don't want to lose straight away and as a result their tech/production is pretty delayed. http://drop.sc/377490In this game against a masters toss although I do almost no economic damage the indirect damage I do to his tech+production sets him far back enough that I am able to play out the game and eventually win. He is on 3 gates until about 9 minutes when he starts his twilight+forge. Admittedly he was floating a lot of gas so its likely that he could have teched faster if he was playing better but I don't see realistically how a protoss can have 4 immortals+lots of blink stalkers at 10 minutes while dealing with reaper harass leading up to that point. Yeah, he's really bad and overreacted. 1) 9 scout WHATTTT lol 2) completely skipped a tech building; you don't need 3 gateways that early, even against reaper harass 3) late MSC/late photon overcharge and time warp In a more standard game, the Protoss isn't going to put himself behind so economically or completely skip tech. Robo goes down at 5:00, constant immortals (55 sec build time + chronoboost) gives you 4 immortals by 10:00. An immortal + ~4 stalkers can comfortably defend a mineral line, especially if you have a photon overcharge or time warp available. Also, the earliest possible oracle arrives at 5:15. So it's great and all that you have an ebay done at that time, but you're going to lose ~8 workers minimum anyway because you don't scout; it's fine to take blind losses, but don't assert that proxy oracle is counterable with this build because it's not.
well, you can´t have the fastest oracle possible. 5:15 would be a proxy that should be scouted and denied by the first couple of reapers. If that happens you autolose the game. So i assume that you are building it inbase; which will be scouted because you don´t have the MSC to deny the scout. Depending on the map that would ideally give terran about a minute to react. Enough to make 6 marines of the already 3 rax. Now you dont have a nexus, not even a stalker - the first one dies to the 3 reaper opening if you play fast stargate- and all that you have going for you is an oracle out on the map. The response to this will then be to resume reaper production after 6 marines, turrets -ebay is started immediately after scouting the SG- and a factory for agressive mines to zone out the oracles. It´s just ugly, you are down on bases and facing a Terran with 3 rax, more scvs then you have probes, a factory coming up, +1 on the way and turret+mine deflecting your air. You will then eventually just die to any push at all.
as for that 10 minute 4 immortal 4 stalker push, its just not going to work. First off all, you are assuming that you don´t lose any stalkers at all which is atleast unlikely. Then, at 10 minutes you will already be facing about 20 reapers and 15 scvs plus you wont have any zealots or proxy pylons for support. As for defense, your immortals are actually hurting you. They are slow and can´t ever keep up with the reapers so you will eventually run out of energy on your MSC and will have to start splitting your army and be very vulnerable to just pure reaper harrasment. Your plan might be a good idea against someone who transitions out of reapers, you will be able to hit a pre stim timing, but against just more reapers its a death trap.
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I guess we need an alpenrahm vs John series to determine who's right. bring it on!
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On March 26 2014 03:44 tar wrote:I guess we need an alpenrahm vs John series to determine who's right. bring it on!
that would be totally awesome ! sc2 john, the NEMESIS, to be overcome to prove a point
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well, now we know how marineking's next tvp is going to go!
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On March 25 2014 11:52 alpenrahm wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2014 11:00 Danglars wrote: The incredibly common ideas of (1) Get a mothership core for defense and (2) Open Oracle before or after expanding present great problems that you have not addressed with discussion or good replays in your post.
The only other option would be to accept a hefty economic penalty by immediately switching to marines and hopefully having 6 before his oracle comes (let's say his foolishly loses the stalker). This opening is much inferior to expanding and then adding on rax in that situation. With chronos and strategic retreats of the stalker to mineral line (outranges, isn't easily bursted down with careful control), you aren't guaranteed high damage. well, im confident that i would be able to scout a proxy stargate and deny its production! and as for replays, i just didn´t encounter oracle play yet ^^ but i assume he wont have a MSC and an oracle and an expansion and enough stalkers to deal with my 3 reapers so his losses should be pretty even to mine with propper micro. But this is all theory craft, i have no idea how it would actually play out... maybe i could somehow get turrets in time? maybe he just dies? maybe i just bo lose? who knows ... It doesn't even have to be proxied. In this case it's even better if it isn't. You have no way of preventing the probe from seeing the second rax. The protoss player has seen two raxes and gas, he knows to play defensively with his first two stalkers, spend chrono on the second (or if he uses MSC at first, chronoes that out).
Your losses are: Your main SCV line, your first marines, and the game. Don't kid yourself about scouting and unpowering the stargate before the first oracle out. That's lucky find, bad proxy, bad stalker control, or bad build from the Protoss. Your opening is weak compared to the standards and other "standard" cheeses.
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Hey Alpenrahm,
When do you get your 2nd gas with this build, in a typical mass reaper TvP game? Sorry if I missed this somewhere - don't have access to replays right now.
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On March 26 2014 05:24 Infinite976 wrote: Hey Alpenrahm,
When do you get your 2nd gas with this build, in a typical mass reaper TvP game? Sorry if I missed this somewhere - don't have access to replays right now.
i get the second gas after the cc, at the same time as the 3rd rax
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On March 26 2014 04:59 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2014 11:52 alpenrahm wrote:On March 25 2014 11:00 Danglars wrote: The incredibly common ideas of (1) Get a mothership core for defense and (2) Open Oracle before or after expanding present great problems that you have not addressed with discussion or good replays in your post.
The only other option would be to accept a hefty economic penalty by immediately switching to marines and hopefully having 6 before his oracle comes (let's say his foolishly loses the stalker). This opening is much inferior to expanding and then adding on rax in that situation. With chronos and strategic retreats of the stalker to mineral line (outranges, isn't easily bursted down with careful control), you aren't guaranteed high damage. well, im confident that i would be able to scout a proxy stargate and deny its production! and as for replays, i just didn´t encounter oracle play yet ^^ but i assume he wont have a MSC and an oracle and an expansion and enough stalkers to deal with my 3 reapers so his losses should be pretty even to mine with propper micro. But this is all theory craft, i have no idea how it would actually play out... maybe i could somehow get turrets in time? maybe he just dies? maybe i just bo lose? who knows ... It doesn't even have to be proxied. In this case it's even better if it isn't. You have no way of preventing the probe from seeing the second rax. The protoss player has seen two raxes and gas, he knows to play defensively with his first two stalkers, spend chrono on the second (or if he uses MSC at first, chronoes that out). Your losses are: Your main SCV line, your first marines, and the game. Don't kid yourself about scouting and unpowering the stargate before the first oracle out. That's lucky find, bad proxy, bad stalker control, or bad build from the Protoss. Your opening is weak compared to the standards and other "standard" cheeses.
ok. another disbeliever
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The beauty of this game is that you can develop your own strats such as this. I would have personally kept it a secret if you are winning so much
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On March 26 2014 05:33 Ctone23 wrote:The beauty of this game is that you can develop your own strats such as this. I would have personally kept it a secret if you are winning so much qxc has streamed mass reaper on gm ladder so it's not a secret. lol. builds like these are never "secrets," they're just things that are semi-viable on ladder against people who don't know how to react. nothing wrong with that as long as a) OP admits his build is NOT some secret formula that korean terrans should be using in proleague and b) detractors admit that there's nothing wrong with using goofy builds on ladder if you can win with them
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On March 26 2014 07:19 Waise wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2014 05:33 Ctone23 wrote:The beauty of this game is that you can develop your own strats such as this. I would have personally kept it a secret if you are winning so much qxc has streamed mass reaper on gm ladder so it's not a secret. lol. builds like these are never "secrets," they're just things that are semi-viable on ladder against people who don't know how to react. nothing wrong with that as long as a) OP admits his build is NOT some secret formula that korean terrans should be using in proleague and b) detractors admit that there's nothing wrong with using goofy builds on ladder if you can win with them
lol.... well yea mass reaper is obviously not a secret... I think you read a little too much in my comment xD
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I just got hit with this on ladder but it's really up to me to not play like an idiot. If I respond correctly I win but it's definitely a fun stye.
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Einfach nur Spitze! I really loved those replays. That build seems awesome to practice a bit macro and micro. I will try it out once I have some time
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Or you can open like I do.
12 rax 12 gas 15 orbital 15 reactor 15 rax 15 gas 16-17 reaper 18 scv 19 depot 19 scv 19reactor (on 2nd rax)
Mass reaper pump from 2rax reactor.
I had a 69% win in TvP when everyone was bitching about the MU, before the patch, when "Terran couldn't punish Toss." Loved that strat, did it every single map. Beat top GMs with it on NA all the time.
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On March 25 2014 11:55 SC2John wrote: The way I deal with mass reapers is just going immortals + blink and go immortal/blink stalker allin ~10:00. Reapers cannot base trade or defend efficiently enough to win. Also, as has been pointed out, any air units at all in the Terran main end the game.
Mass reapers in TvP is cute but in no way viable. Ruff does it at the top of GM so I guess it depends on your definition of viable. Additionally, there is no possible way the Protoss can hide a stargate from mass reaper; you float tons of minerals with (a more efficient version of this build, this one is not good) so you just delay your third a little and get turrets.
I prefer 12 rax, gas 15 rax, 17 reaper, orbital, gas, depot make 2 reactors when first reaper finishes
The goal is to get a planetary third, don't die to 1 base blink by doing something stupid.
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On April 09 2014 13:55 U_G_L_Y wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2014 11:55 SC2John wrote: The way I deal with mass reapers is just going immortals + blink and go immortal/blink stalker allin ~10:00. Reapers cannot base trade or defend efficiently enough to win. Also, as has been pointed out, any air units at all in the Terran main end the game.
Mass reapers in TvP is cute but in no way viable. Ruff does it at the top of GM so I guess it depends on your definition of viable. Additionally, there is no possible way the Protoss can hide a stargate from mass reaper; you float tons of minerals with (a more efficient version of this build, this one is not good) so you just delay your third a little and get turrets. I prefer 12 rax, gas 15 rax, 17 reaper, orbital, gas, depot make 2 reactors when first reaper finishes The goal is to get a planetary third, don't die to 1 base blink by doing something stupid.
Having the double reactor certainly boosts your production quite a bit but you trade off for the early unit advantage. With a quick 3rd reaper you have a decent chance of killing the first stalker and, if you get it, take quite a bit of momentum. I am not quite sure i like the reactors though. Reapers take such a long time to build, and so do reactors. It just feels like too little too late into all in.
I also quite dislike the idea of having a planetary 3rd. you want to have your macro explode and get your geysers 6-10 up when he finally manages to secure his 3rd. It is just not helpful to artificially slow your macro down when you can accomplish the same thing by just executing the pin well. You surely need turrets at some point, but a pf is overkill. If toss manages to reach your 3rd, chance are you have already lost. Plus its unaffordable gas wise.
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I watched all the replays. All of the protoss you played were terrible. Gas before cyber, stargate, 1 oracle, good game, he expands behind that, and it's over.
The morons you played apparently thought stalkers and ht counter reapers. :\
Power of Protoss <.>
Now you're going to say, "Just make turrets." Oh, okay.
Turrets are good.
What happens when he engages your army of reapers with 2 oracles? What happens when you try to deny his third? You lose. 2-3 oracles gives him total map control.
Oh and that other thing, that this gets shut down immediately by a 2 gate opening. 2 stalkers and zealot vs your 3-4 reapers? Not looking like a good match up for you.
Moreover, any aggression in your base with MSC, you're going to lose quite a few reapers.
Moreover again, Voidrays kill vikings, voidrays kill reapers, gg. This is less viable for toss, I think, since you can throw down reactors on 12 rax and be making 24 marines at one time.
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On April 12 2014 03:19 xRiotZx wrote: I watched all the replays. All of the protoss you played were terrible. Gas before cyber, stargate, 1 oracle, good game, he expands behind that, and it's over.
The morons you played apparently thought stalkers and ht counter reapers. :\
Power of Protoss <.>
Now you're going to say, "Just make turrets." Oh, okay.
Turrets are good.
What happens when he engages your army of reapers with 2 oracles? What happens when you try to deny his third? You lose. 2-3 oracles gives him total map control.
Oh and that other thing, that this gets shut down immediately by a 2 gate opening. 2 stalkers and zealot vs your 3-4 reapers? Not looking like a good match up for you.
Moreover, any aggression in your base with MSC, you're going to lose quite a few reapers.
Moreover again, Voidrays kill vikings, voidrays kill reapers, gg. This is less viable for toss, I think, since you can throw down reactors on 12 rax and be making 24 marines at one time. LOL
User was warned for this post
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United States4883 Posts
On April 09 2014 13:55 U_G_L_Y wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2014 11:55 SC2John wrote: The way I deal with mass reapers is just going immortals + blink and go immortal/blink stalker allin ~10:00. Reapers cannot base trade or defend efficiently enough to win. Also, as has been pointed out, any air units at all in the Terran main end the game.
Mass reapers in TvP is cute but in no way viable. Ruff does it at the top of GM so I guess it depends on your definition of viable. Additionally, there is no possible way the Protoss can hide a stargate from mass reaper; you float tons of minerals with (a more efficient version of this build, this one is not good) so you just delay your third a little and get turrets. I prefer 12 rax, gas 15 rax, 17 reaper, orbital, gas, depot make 2 reactors when first reaper finishes The goal is to get a planetary third, don't die to 1 base blink by doing something stupid.
Ugh, I can't believe we're still on this.
"There is no possible way the Protoss can hide a stargate from mass reaper" is the silliest ultimate statement. Either you're attacking with the reapers or scouting the map with them; you can't do both at the same time. And whatever happens, a turret does not a) stop an oracle from getting free SCV kills (I'm not talking about suiciding the oracle) or b) stop the oracle from picking off reapers (the oracle speed is FASTER).
Quit pretending that mass reapers is somehow a viable, catch-all strategy that is perfectly viable for "standard play". Every strategy has some weakness. This one has a weakness to immortal/blink allins and proxy stargates. The double reactor play also dies pretty hard to zealot/stalker/MSC pressure, as has been pointed out. I'm done dealing with your theorycraft, I have legitimate experience beating this without any problem.
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On April 12 2014 04:05 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2014 13:55 U_G_L_Y wrote:On March 25 2014 11:55 SC2John wrote: The way I deal with mass reapers is just going immortals + blink and go immortal/blink stalker allin ~10:00. Reapers cannot base trade or defend efficiently enough to win. Also, as has been pointed out, any air units at all in the Terran main end the game.
Mass reapers in TvP is cute but in no way viable. Ruff does it at the top of GM so I guess it depends on your definition of viable. Additionally, there is no possible way the Protoss can hide a stargate from mass reaper; you float tons of minerals with (a more efficient version of this build, this one is not good) so you just delay your third a little and get turrets. I prefer 12 rax, gas 15 rax, 17 reaper, orbital, gas, depot make 2 reactors when first reaper finishes The goal is to get a planetary third, don't die to 1 base blink by doing something stupid. Ugh, I can't believe we're still on this. "There is no possible way the Protoss can hide a stargate from mass reaper" is the silliest ultimate statement. Either you're attacking with the reapers or scouting the map with them; you can't do both at the same time. And whatever happens, a turret does not a) stop an oracle from getting free SCV kills (I'm not talking about suiciding the oracle) or b) stop the oracle from picking off reapers (the oracle speed is FASTER). Quit pretending that mass reapers is somehow a viable, catch-all strategy that is perfectly viable for "standard play". Every strategy has some weakness. This one has a weakness to immortal/blink allins and proxy stargates. The double reactor play also dies pretty hard to zealot/stalker/MSC pressure, as has been pointed out. I'm done dealing with your theorycraft, I have legitimate experience beating this without any problem.
This.
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On April 12 2014 04:05 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2014 13:55 U_G_L_Y wrote:On March 25 2014 11:55 SC2John wrote: The way I deal with mass reapers is just going immortals + blink and go immortal/blink stalker allin ~10:00. Reapers cannot base trade or defend efficiently enough to win. Also, as has been pointed out, any air units at all in the Terran main end the game.
Mass reapers in TvP is cute but in no way viable. Ruff does it at the top of GM so I guess it depends on your definition of viable. Additionally, there is no possible way the Protoss can hide a stargate from mass reaper; you float tons of minerals with (a more efficient version of this build, this one is not good) so you just delay your third a little and get turrets. I prefer 12 rax, gas 15 rax, 17 reaper, orbital, gas, depot make 2 reactors when first reaper finishes The goal is to get a planetary third, don't die to 1 base blink by doing something stupid. Ugh, I can't believe we're still on this. "There is no possible way the Protoss can hide a stargate from mass reaper" is the silliest ultimate statement. Either you're attacking with the reapers or scouting the map with them; you can't do both at the same time. And whatever happens, a turret does not a) stop an oracle from getting free SCV kills (I'm not talking about suiciding the oracle) or b) stop the oracle from picking off reapers (the oracle speed is FASTER). Quit pretending that mass reapers is somehow a viable, catch-all strategy that is perfectly viable for "standard play". Every strategy has some weakness. This one has a weakness to immortal/blink allins and proxy stargates. The double reactor play also dies pretty hard to zealot/stalker/MSC pressure, as has been pointed out. I'm done dealing with your theorycraft, I have legitimate experience beating this without any problem.
Actually, double reactor is a very hard counter to zealot/stalker/MSC pressure as you completely overwhelm them and then can churn out 4 marines to kill the MSC. At that point, there's no MSC to use overcharge and it's actually one of the easier wins, imo.
Oracle you can tell because if you're pressuring them, they have no expansion, and a single stalker, it's always proxy oracle. You don't need to scout for the proxy. You absolutely have to realize it and build the ebay PRIOR to your first CC though.
I've lost to blink stalker a few times on one base, but don't find it overly strong - you just counter with your reapers. He's forced to leave his MSC at home, meaning he doesn't have hte vision, which is what makes blink stalkers so hard to stop.
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On April 12 2014 11:34 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2014 04:05 SC2John wrote:On April 09 2014 13:55 U_G_L_Y wrote:On March 25 2014 11:55 SC2John wrote: The way I deal with mass reapers is just going immortals + blink and go immortal/blink stalker allin ~10:00. Reapers cannot base trade or defend efficiently enough to win. Also, as has been pointed out, any air units at all in the Terran main end the game.
Mass reapers in TvP is cute but in no way viable. Ruff does it at the top of GM so I guess it depends on your definition of viable. Additionally, there is no possible way the Protoss can hide a stargate from mass reaper; you float tons of minerals with (a more efficient version of this build, this one is not good) so you just delay your third a little and get turrets. I prefer 12 rax, gas 15 rax, 17 reaper, orbital, gas, depot make 2 reactors when first reaper finishes The goal is to get a planetary third, don't die to 1 base blink by doing something stupid. Ugh, I can't believe we're still on this. "There is no possible way the Protoss can hide a stargate from mass reaper" is the silliest ultimate statement. Either you're attacking with the reapers or scouting the map with them; you can't do both at the same time. And whatever happens, a turret does not a) stop an oracle from getting free SCV kills (I'm not talking about suiciding the oracle) or b) stop the oracle from picking off reapers (the oracle speed is FASTER). Quit pretending that mass reapers is somehow a viable, catch-all strategy that is perfectly viable for "standard play". Every strategy has some weakness. This one has a weakness to immortal/blink allins and proxy stargates. The double reactor play also dies pretty hard to zealot/stalker/MSC pressure, as has been pointed out. I'm done dealing with your theorycraft, I have legitimate experience beating this without any problem. Actually, double reactor is a very hard counter to zealot/stalker/MSC pressure as you completely overwhelm them and then can churn out 4 marines to kill the MSC. At that point, there's no MSC to use overcharge and it's actually one of the easier wins, imo. Oracle you can tell because if you're pressuring them, they have no expansion, and a single stalker, it's always proxy oracle. You don't need to scout for the proxy. You absolutely have to realize it and build the ebay PRIOR to your first CC though. I've lost to blink stalker a few times on one base, but don't find it overly strong - you just counter with your reapers. He's forced to leave his MSC at home, meaning he doesn't have hte vision, which is what makes blink stalkers so hard to stop.
It's a cute cheese that can win some games, but don't fool yourself. It is not solid or safe enough to be standard play -- not even close. The OP acts like he has invented the new 1 rax expo or whatever. :p
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On March 25 2014 11:55 SC2John wrote: The way I deal with mass reapers is just going immortals + blink and go immortal/blink stalker allin ~10:00. Reapers cannot base trade or defend efficiently enough to win. Also, as has been pointed out, any air units at all in the Terran main end the game.
Mass reapers in TvP is cute but in no way viable.
Pretty much this. I saw this mass reaper a lot actually last night on the latter. Caught me off guard the first time but after that was pretty easy to deal with.
But if you have fun with the build that's all that counts.
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On April 12 2014 11:34 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2014 04:05 SC2John wrote:On April 09 2014 13:55 U_G_L_Y wrote:On March 25 2014 11:55 SC2John wrote: The way I deal with mass reapers is just going immortals + blink and go immortal/blink stalker allin ~10:00. Reapers cannot base trade or defend efficiently enough to win. Also, as has been pointed out, any air units at all in the Terran main end the game.
Mass reapers in TvP is cute but in no way viable. Ruff does it at the top of GM so I guess it depends on your definition of viable. Additionally, there is no possible way the Protoss can hide a stargate from mass reaper; you float tons of minerals with (a more efficient version of this build, this one is not good) so you just delay your third a little and get turrets. I prefer 12 rax, gas 15 rax, 17 reaper, orbital, gas, depot make 2 reactors when first reaper finishes The goal is to get a planetary third, don't die to 1 base blink by doing something stupid. Ugh, I can't believe we're still on this. "There is no possible way the Protoss can hide a stargate from mass reaper" is the silliest ultimate statement. Either you're attacking with the reapers or scouting the map with them; you can't do both at the same time. And whatever happens, a turret does not a) stop an oracle from getting free SCV kills (I'm not talking about suiciding the oracle) or b) stop the oracle from picking off reapers (the oracle speed is FASTER). Quit pretending that mass reapers is somehow a viable, catch-all strategy that is perfectly viable for "standard play". Every strategy has some weakness. This one has a weakness to immortal/blink allins and proxy stargates. The double reactor play also dies pretty hard to zealot/stalker/MSC pressure, as has been pointed out. I'm done dealing with your theorycraft, I have legitimate experience beating this without any problem. Actually, double reactor is a very hard counter to zealot/stalker/MSC pressure as you completely overwhelm them and then can churn out 4 marines to kill the MSC. At that point, there's no MSC to use overcharge and it's actually one of the easier wins, imo. Oracle you can tell because if you're pressuring them, they have no expansion, and a single stalker, it's always proxy oracle. You don't need to scout for the proxy. You absolutely have to realize it and build the ebay PRIOR to your first CC though. I've lost to blink stalker a few times on one base, but don't find it overly strong - you just counter with your reapers. He's forced to leave his MSC at home, meaning he doesn't have hte vision, which is what makes blink stalkers so hard to stop.
Okay, so you're semi-safe from oracles at the expense of about 300ish minerals, excluding the cost of the ebay, so more like 425, that gets you to a point where your scvs won't die on the line, but can still get killed while building.... And, you can't engage with your reapers, because reapers don't shoot up, and that 425 minerals you just blew on anti-air is in your base and it isn't moving.
So let's figure you retreat, regroup, start pumping rines instead of reapers, you push out at 8-9ish maybe, his nat is already down, he's got a few ground units, but mainly msc with overcharge and 3-4 oracles (if he's smart), now the game is over, he'll just parade on your push, you'll save whatever you have left, and your inferior worker count/late nat lose you the game.
I don't play toss but, I'd be glad to 1v1 anyone who wants to try this versus me.
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On April 13 2014 00:35 xRiotZx wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2014 11:34 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 12 2014 04:05 SC2John wrote:On April 09 2014 13:55 U_G_L_Y wrote:On March 25 2014 11:55 SC2John wrote: The way I deal with mass reapers is just going immortals + blink and go immortal/blink stalker allin ~10:00. Reapers cannot base trade or defend efficiently enough to win. Also, as has been pointed out, any air units at all in the Terran main end the game.
Mass reapers in TvP is cute but in no way viable. Ruff does it at the top of GM so I guess it depends on your definition of viable. Additionally, there is no possible way the Protoss can hide a stargate from mass reaper; you float tons of minerals with (a more efficient version of this build, this one is not good) so you just delay your third a little and get turrets. I prefer 12 rax, gas 15 rax, 17 reaper, orbital, gas, depot make 2 reactors when first reaper finishes The goal is to get a planetary third, don't die to 1 base blink by doing something stupid. Ugh, I can't believe we're still on this. "There is no possible way the Protoss can hide a stargate from mass reaper" is the silliest ultimate statement. Either you're attacking with the reapers or scouting the map with them; you can't do both at the same time. And whatever happens, a turret does not a) stop an oracle from getting free SCV kills (I'm not talking about suiciding the oracle) or b) stop the oracle from picking off reapers (the oracle speed is FASTER). Quit pretending that mass reapers is somehow a viable, catch-all strategy that is perfectly viable for "standard play". Every strategy has some weakness. This one has a weakness to immortal/blink allins and proxy stargates. The double reactor play also dies pretty hard to zealot/stalker/MSC pressure, as has been pointed out. I'm done dealing with your theorycraft, I have legitimate experience beating this without any problem. Actually, double reactor is a very hard counter to zealot/stalker/MSC pressure as you completely overwhelm them and then can churn out 4 marines to kill the MSC. At that point, there's no MSC to use overcharge and it's actually one of the easier wins, imo. Oracle you can tell because if you're pressuring them, they have no expansion, and a single stalker, it's always proxy oracle. You don't need to scout for the proxy. You absolutely have to realize it and build the ebay PRIOR to your first CC though. I've lost to blink stalker a few times on one base, but don't find it overly strong - you just counter with your reapers. He's forced to leave his MSC at home, meaning he doesn't have hte vision, which is what makes blink stalkers so hard to stop. Okay, so you're semi-safe from oracles at the expense of about 300ish minerals, excluding the cost of the ebay, so more like 425, that gets you to a point where your scvs won't die on the line, but can still get killed while building.... And, you can't engage with your reapers, because reapers don't shoot up, and that 425 minerals you just blew on anti-air is in your base and it isn't moving. So let's figure you retreat, regroup, start pumping rines instead of reapers, you push out at 8-9ish maybe, his nat is already down, he's got a few ground units, but mainly msc with overcharge and 3-4 oracles (if he's smart), now the game is over, he'll just parade on your push, you'll save whatever you have left, and your inferior worker count/late nat lose you the game. I don't play toss but, I'd be glad to 1v1 anyone who wants to try this versus me.
I'll 1v1 you no problem. You can theory craft, but as mentioned, I've been GM with random, and out of the 9 MUs TvP was my second best, doing this as my only strat. And I tell race. And you'll know it's coming.
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On April 10 2014 10:27 alpenrahm wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2014 13:55 U_G_L_Y wrote:On March 25 2014 11:55 SC2John wrote: The way I deal with mass reapers is just going immortals + blink and go immortal/blink stalker allin ~10:00. Reapers cannot base trade or defend efficiently enough to win. Also, as has been pointed out, any air units at all in the Terran main end the game.
Mass reapers in TvP is cute but in no way viable. Ruff does it at the top of GM so I guess it depends on your definition of viable. Additionally, there is no possible way the Protoss can hide a stargate from mass reaper; you float tons of minerals with (a more efficient version of this build, this one is not good) so you just delay your third a little and get turrets. I prefer 12 rax, gas 15 rax, 17 reaper, orbital, gas, depot make 2 reactors when first reaper finishes The goal is to get a planetary third, don't die to 1 base blink by doing something stupid. Having the double reactor certainly boosts your production quite a bit but you trade off for the early unit advantage. With a quick 3rd reaper you have a decent chance of killing the first stalker and, if you get it, take quite a bit of momentum. I am not quite sure i like the reactors though. Reapers take such a long time to build, and so do reactors. It just feels like too little too late into all in. I also quite dislike the idea of having a planetary 3rd. you want to have your macro explode and get your geysers 6-10 up when he finally manages to secure his 3rd. It is just not helpful to artificially slow your macro down when you can accomplish the same thing by just executing the pin well. You surely need turrets at some point, but a pf is overkill. If toss manages to reach your 3rd, chance are you have already lost. Plus its unaffordable gas wise. In my experience almost every protoss that expands goes for 2 base stalker with eventual blink to survive, and you simply don't have enough/the right units to hold the counter attack once they stabilize without a PF at your third.
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On April 12 2014 04:05 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2014 13:55 U_G_L_Y wrote:On March 25 2014 11:55 SC2John wrote: The way I deal with mass reapers is just going immortals + blink and go immortal/blink stalker allin ~10:00. Reapers cannot base trade or defend efficiently enough to win. Also, as has been pointed out, any air units at all in the Terran main end the game.
Mass reapers in TvP is cute but in no way viable. Ruff does it at the top of GM so I guess it depends on your definition of viable. Additionally, there is no possible way the Protoss can hide a stargate from mass reaper; you float tons of minerals with (a more efficient version of this build, this one is not good) so you just delay your third a little and get turrets. I prefer 12 rax, gas 15 rax, 17 reaper, orbital, gas, depot make 2 reactors when first reaper finishes The goal is to get a planetary third, don't die to 1 base blink by doing something stupid. Ugh, I can't believe we're still on this. "There is no possible way the Protoss can hide a stargate from mass reaper" is the silliest ultimate statement. Either you're attacking with the reapers or scouting the map with them; you can't do both at the same time. And whatever happens, a turret does not a) stop an oracle from getting free SCV kills (I'm not talking about suiciding the oracle) or b) stop the oracle from picking off reapers (the oracle speed is FASTER). Quit pretending that mass reapers is somehow a viable, catch-all strategy that is perfectly viable for "standard play". Every strategy has some weakness. This one has a weakness to immortal/blink allins and proxy stargates. The double reactor play also dies pretty hard to zealot/stalker/MSC pressure, as has been pointed out. I'm done dealing with your theorycraft, I have legitimate experience beating this without any problem.
How are you going to "attack" a Protoss without 5 reapers? You scout and poke and contain until that point. I always find the Stargate.
Secondly, 3 reapers plus 4 SCVs on auto repair holds a 10 gate zealot stalker MSC poke with almost no damage. You scout and vs 10 gate, you make 2 extra reapers before reactors and you're ahead.
Also, nothing stops an oracle from getting free SCV kills, with any standard build. Turrets are far better than marines, however.
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I actually managed to have a 20+ minute game against a Masters Protoss by only making reapers -- on Habitation Station. I lost, because that's inevitable without a transition, but I was rather surprised at how long I could go for without any sort of strategy beyond "mass reapers". Yes, the Protoss made stargate units. The oracle got like 6+ SCVs but that was okay because I also killed a bunch of probes and I was ahead economically.
Suffice to say, I'm intrigued with the concept, if for no other reason than as an early game idea to get ahead economically before transitioning into something less crazy. Definitely not a standard build by any means, but it could be a cool little weapon to have in one's pocket.
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On April 13 2014 08:43 iamcaustic wrote: I actually managed to have a 20+ minute game against a Masters Protoss by only making reapers -- on Habitation Station. I lost, because that's inevitable without a transition, but I was rather surprised at how long I could go for without any sort of strategy beyond "mass reapers". Yes, the Protoss made stargate units. The oracle got like 6+ SCVs but that was okay because I also killed a bunch of probes and I was ahead economically.
Suffice to say, I'm intrigued with the concept, if for no other reason than as an early game idea to get ahead economically before transitioning into something less crazy. Definitely not a standard build by any means, but it could be a cool little weapon to have in one's pocket.
I am incredibly proud of you! you took the idea and applied it like a champ. No looking back, no compromises. i feel humbly honored by your faith, great sir. thanks!
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On April 13 2014 02:10 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2014 00:35 xRiotZx wrote:On April 12 2014 11:34 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 12 2014 04:05 SC2John wrote:On April 09 2014 13:55 U_G_L_Y wrote:On March 25 2014 11:55 SC2John wrote: The way I deal with mass reapers is just going immortals + blink and go immortal/blink stalker allin ~10:00. Reapers cannot base trade or defend efficiently enough to win. Also, as has been pointed out, any air units at all in the Terran main end the game.
Mass reapers in TvP is cute but in no way viable. Ruff does it at the top of GM so I guess it depends on your definition of viable. Additionally, there is no possible way the Protoss can hide a stargate from mass reaper; you float tons of minerals with (a more efficient version of this build, this one is not good) so you just delay your third a little and get turrets. I prefer 12 rax, gas 15 rax, 17 reaper, orbital, gas, depot make 2 reactors when first reaper finishes The goal is to get a planetary third, don't die to 1 base blink by doing something stupid. Ugh, I can't believe we're still on this. "There is no possible way the Protoss can hide a stargate from mass reaper" is the silliest ultimate statement. Either you're attacking with the reapers or scouting the map with them; you can't do both at the same time. And whatever happens, a turret does not a) stop an oracle from getting free SCV kills (I'm not talking about suiciding the oracle) or b) stop the oracle from picking off reapers (the oracle speed is FASTER). Quit pretending that mass reapers is somehow a viable, catch-all strategy that is perfectly viable for "standard play". Every strategy has some weakness. This one has a weakness to immortal/blink allins and proxy stargates. The double reactor play also dies pretty hard to zealot/stalker/MSC pressure, as has been pointed out. I'm done dealing with your theorycraft, I have legitimate experience beating this without any problem. Actually, double reactor is a very hard counter to zealot/stalker/MSC pressure as you completely overwhelm them and then can churn out 4 marines to kill the MSC. At that point, there's no MSC to use overcharge and it's actually one of the easier wins, imo. Oracle you can tell because if you're pressuring them, they have no expansion, and a single stalker, it's always proxy oracle. You don't need to scout for the proxy. You absolutely have to realize it and build the ebay PRIOR to your first CC though. I've lost to blink stalker a few times on one base, but don't find it overly strong - you just counter with your reapers. He's forced to leave his MSC at home, meaning he doesn't have hte vision, which is what makes blink stalkers so hard to stop. Okay, so you're semi-safe from oracles at the expense of about 300ish minerals, excluding the cost of the ebay, so more like 425, that gets you to a point where your scvs won't die on the line, but can still get killed while building.... And, you can't engage with your reapers, because reapers don't shoot up, and that 425 minerals you just blew on anti-air is in your base and it isn't moving. So let's figure you retreat, regroup, start pumping rines instead of reapers, you push out at 8-9ish maybe, his nat is already down, he's got a few ground units, but mainly msc with overcharge and 3-4 oracles (if he's smart), now the game is over, he'll just parade on your push, you'll save whatever you have left, and your inferior worker count/late nat lose you the game. I don't play toss but, I'd be glad to 1v1 anyone who wants to try this versus me. I'll 1v1 you no problem. You can theory craft, but as mentioned, I've been GM with random, and out of the 9 MUs TvP was my second best, doing this as my only strat. And I tell race. And you'll know it's coming.
i would be interested in some of your replays, if you would like to share them.... but beware ill defenitly put em in the OP
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On April 13 2014 11:25 alpenrahm wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2014 08:43 iamcaustic wrote: I actually managed to have a 20+ minute game against a Masters Protoss by only making reapers -- on Habitation Station. I lost, because that's inevitable without a transition, but I was rather surprised at how long I could go for without any sort of strategy beyond "mass reapers". Yes, the Protoss made stargate units. The oracle got like 6+ SCVs but that was okay because I also killed a bunch of probes and I was ahead economically.
Suffice to say, I'm intrigued with the concept, if for no other reason than as an early game idea to get ahead economically before transitioning into something less crazy. Definitely not a standard build by any means, but it could be a cool little weapon to have in one's pocket. I am incredibly proud of you! you took the idea and applied it like a champ. No looking back, no compromises. i feel humbly honored by your faith, great sir. thanks! I did it because I was fairly skeptical at its viability beyond a certain point, but the fact that you can go for so long (I didn't even have good upgrades) against current Masters Protoss players tells me that, if applied to something more refined than just massing them, there's some potential to be had.
From some of the other conversations in this thread, it seems like others are of the same opinion, and already have more refined builds against things like proxy Oracle and the such. Would love to get my hands on some replays.
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This build is viable...
I used a 3 reaper + mass rines +1weapon/stim(against toss) or combatshield(against zerg) timing during the WOL days. (Korea Mid masters - EU High master - CN GM). Its designed to do economic damage, wheter is worker kills or building units which gonna die to the mass rines timing. Everything to delay the tech and worker lead. Its just the "marines" does too much DPS to other units, yes even bloody roaches. Ive smashed a former Dutch Pro-GM-zerg and Jim at WCG China-Qualifers with this.
This is very smiliar to the bo I used in the old days, do everything to delay their tech and force units. Since zerg and protoss are using very efficient minerals/gas, Terran is using heavily on minerals and low on gas. This bo is optimizing the minerals/gas usage and workers at mining efficiency.
Yes this is very disrupting the "optimized" BO's of the opponent. Especially the protoss.
To even improve this build, I suggest build an e-bay to delay their expansion. This will divide the good players between the "robot" players. (Robot players copy meta and bo's).
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On April 12 2014 23:12 SatedSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2014 21:18 QuartzTheOG wrote:On March 25 2014 11:55 SC2John wrote: The way I deal with mass reapers is just going immortals + blink and go immortal/blink stalker allin ~10:00. Reapers cannot base trade or defend efficiently enough to win. Also, as has been pointed out, any air units at all in the Terran main end the game.
Mass reapers in TvP is cute but in no way viable. Pretty much this. I saw this mass reaper a lot actually last night on the latter. Caught me off guard the first time but after that was pretty easy to deal with. But if you have fun with the build that's all that counts. If someone could post a replay where they deal with fast Reapers properly then that would be appreciated. It doesn't necessarily have to transition into mass Reapers, it just has to be an example of how to deal with 3/5 early Reapers. It would be even better if the initial Barrack(s) are proxied. I really have problems with that type of opening, especially on Heavy Rain and other such maps. Yes, I would love to see SC2John's 4 stalker 4 immortal push replays.
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On April 13 2014 02:10 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2014 00:35 xRiotZx wrote:On April 12 2014 11:34 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 12 2014 04:05 SC2John wrote:On April 09 2014 13:55 U_G_L_Y wrote:On March 25 2014 11:55 SC2John wrote: The way I deal with mass reapers is just going immortals + blink and go immortal/blink stalker allin ~10:00. Reapers cannot base trade or defend efficiently enough to win. Also, as has been pointed out, any air units at all in the Terran main end the game.
Mass reapers in TvP is cute but in no way viable. Ruff does it at the top of GM so I guess it depends on your definition of viable. Additionally, there is no possible way the Protoss can hide a stargate from mass reaper; you float tons of minerals with (a more efficient version of this build, this one is not good) so you just delay your third a little and get turrets. I prefer 12 rax, gas 15 rax, 17 reaper, orbital, gas, depot make 2 reactors when first reaper finishes The goal is to get a planetary third, don't die to 1 base blink by doing something stupid. Ugh, I can't believe we're still on this. "There is no possible way the Protoss can hide a stargate from mass reaper" is the silliest ultimate statement. Either you're attacking with the reapers or scouting the map with them; you can't do both at the same time. And whatever happens, a turret does not a) stop an oracle from getting free SCV kills (I'm not talking about suiciding the oracle) or b) stop the oracle from picking off reapers (the oracle speed is FASTER). Quit pretending that mass reapers is somehow a viable, catch-all strategy that is perfectly viable for "standard play". Every strategy has some weakness. This one has a weakness to immortal/blink allins and proxy stargates. The double reactor play also dies pretty hard to zealot/stalker/MSC pressure, as has been pointed out. I'm done dealing with your theorycraft, I have legitimate experience beating this without any problem. Actually, double reactor is a very hard counter to zealot/stalker/MSC pressure as you completely overwhelm them and then can churn out 4 marines to kill the MSC. At that point, there's no MSC to use overcharge and it's actually one of the easier wins, imo. Oracle you can tell because if you're pressuring them, they have no expansion, and a single stalker, it's always proxy oracle. You don't need to scout for the proxy. You absolutely have to realize it and build the ebay PRIOR to your first CC though. I've lost to blink stalker a few times on one base, but don't find it overly strong - you just counter with your reapers. He's forced to leave his MSC at home, meaning he doesn't have hte vision, which is what makes blink stalkers so hard to stop. Okay, so you're semi-safe from oracles at the expense of about 300ish minerals, excluding the cost of the ebay, so more like 425, that gets you to a point where your scvs won't die on the line, but can still get killed while building.... And, you can't engage with your reapers, because reapers don't shoot up, and that 425 minerals you just blew on anti-air is in your base and it isn't moving. So let's figure you retreat, regroup, start pumping rines instead of reapers, you push out at 8-9ish maybe, his nat is already down, he's got a few ground units, but mainly msc with overcharge and 3-4 oracles (if he's smart), now the game is over, he'll just parade on your push, you'll save whatever you have left, and your inferior worker count/late nat lose you the game. I don't play toss but, I'd be glad to 1v1 anyone who wants to try this versus me. I'll 1v1 you no problem. You can theory craft, but as mentioned, I've been GM with random, and out of the 9 MUs TvP was my second best, doing this as my only strat. And I tell race. And you'll know it's coming.
I have basically no experience playing protoss, but, with everything I know about terran I'm pretty confident I can hold this.
I play on AM server, my name is RiotZ and my tag is #260.
Aiur vs Integral
Held the reapers, followed up with a soft all in, won the game in 10 minutes. Excuse the 2 hr game time, I was afk in the obs.
http://drop.sc/378608
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On April 14 2014 00:18 xRiotZx wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2014 02:10 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 13 2014 00:35 xRiotZx wrote:On April 12 2014 11:34 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 12 2014 04:05 SC2John wrote:On April 09 2014 13:55 U_G_L_Y wrote:On March 25 2014 11:55 SC2John wrote: The way I deal with mass reapers is just going immortals + blink and go immortal/blink stalker allin ~10:00. Reapers cannot base trade or defend efficiently enough to win. Also, as has been pointed out, any air units at all in the Terran main end the game.
Mass reapers in TvP is cute but in no way viable. Ruff does it at the top of GM so I guess it depends on your definition of viable. Additionally, there is no possible way the Protoss can hide a stargate from mass reaper; you float tons of minerals with (a more efficient version of this build, this one is not good) so you just delay your third a little and get turrets. I prefer 12 rax, gas 15 rax, 17 reaper, orbital, gas, depot make 2 reactors when first reaper finishes The goal is to get a planetary third, don't die to 1 base blink by doing something stupid. Ugh, I can't believe we're still on this. "There is no possible way the Protoss can hide a stargate from mass reaper" is the silliest ultimate statement. Either you're attacking with the reapers or scouting the map with them; you can't do both at the same time. And whatever happens, a turret does not a) stop an oracle from getting free SCV kills (I'm not talking about suiciding the oracle) or b) stop the oracle from picking off reapers (the oracle speed is FASTER). Quit pretending that mass reapers is somehow a viable, catch-all strategy that is perfectly viable for "standard play". Every strategy has some weakness. This one has a weakness to immortal/blink allins and proxy stargates. The double reactor play also dies pretty hard to zealot/stalker/MSC pressure, as has been pointed out. I'm done dealing with your theorycraft, I have legitimate experience beating this without any problem. Actually, double reactor is a very hard counter to zealot/stalker/MSC pressure as you completely overwhelm them and then can churn out 4 marines to kill the MSC. At that point, there's no MSC to use overcharge and it's actually one of the easier wins, imo. Oracle you can tell because if you're pressuring them, they have no expansion, and a single stalker, it's always proxy oracle. You don't need to scout for the proxy. You absolutely have to realize it and build the ebay PRIOR to your first CC though. I've lost to blink stalker a few times on one base, but don't find it overly strong - you just counter with your reapers. He's forced to leave his MSC at home, meaning he doesn't have hte vision, which is what makes blink stalkers so hard to stop. Okay, so you're semi-safe from oracles at the expense of about 300ish minerals, excluding the cost of the ebay, so more like 425, that gets you to a point where your scvs won't die on the line, but can still get killed while building.... And, you can't engage with your reapers, because reapers don't shoot up, and that 425 minerals you just blew on anti-air is in your base and it isn't moving. So let's figure you retreat, regroup, start pumping rines instead of reapers, you push out at 8-9ish maybe, his nat is already down, he's got a few ground units, but mainly msc with overcharge and 3-4 oracles (if he's smart), now the game is over, he'll just parade on your push, you'll save whatever you have left, and your inferior worker count/late nat lose you the game. I don't play toss but, I'd be glad to 1v1 anyone who wants to try this versus me. I'll 1v1 you no problem. You can theory craft, but as mentioned, I've been GM with random, and out of the 9 MUs TvP was my second best, doing this as my only strat. And I tell race. And you'll know it's coming. I have basically no experience playing protoss, but, with everything I know about terran I'm pretty confident I can hold this. I play on AM server, my name is RiotZ and my tag is #260. Aiur vs Integral Held the reapers, followed up with a soft all in, won the game in 10 minutes. Excuse the 2 hr game time, I was afk in the obs. http://drop.sc/378608
While I did lose relatively handedly, and the initial BO up to the two reactors WERE per the build (no mistakes from how I normally do it), I'd say there were quite a bit of things to make that rep a little off from how effective it could be.
1. Haven't done a TvP 1v1 in well over a month or so, or done this build in particular. Forgot my CC for a bit, forgot to get an orbital, forgot to build any other followup raxes, just floated a ton of minerals. 2. Never played the map, didn't realize when he moved out it wouldn't be in reaper vision. 3. Build is notably weaker on maps that have a natural ramp - which I pointed out prior to the game. Also weaker on maps where there's no real room to get into the main without going in blind.
I'd have asked for a Bo3 but I did feel I executed the original build quite handedly, it's the followup (lack of any natural orbital for ages, etc.) that I'd have likely lost anyways. It's lack of mechanics past that initial phase, but if you can imagine spending my minerals regularly throughout it, I would have been in a solid position despite losing the reapers.
tl:dr - I played poorly, didn't know the map, and am rusty, but think the initial bout before losing reapers was still OK - he played well, better, but plays more^^
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Italy12246 Posts
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Italy12246 Posts
I didnt say anything about what's viable at the pro level, my comment was about the average player's ladder builds. At that level, anything can work pretty much.
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If you were referring to me, I didn't say I play bad generally speaking (not saying that isn't true though). I'm saying that I played badly that game, and there was a lot due to not playing any TvPs in 1's for well over a month. The execution of the initial reapers were fine, but as soon as it was early-mid game I fell apart (ie. not making an orbital at my natural, not following up with any raxes, etc.).
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I'm really liking the 2 reactor style. Been reliably beating Masters Protoss players with it on all the maps I play save Habitation Station; combination of reapers not being as good on the map and me still lacking a lot of experience with the build. Suffice to say, I'm quite content with having more than one TvP style for Masters-level games, even if it is potentially hard countered by stalker/immortal as some people are suggesting (though I've beaten players trying to go for that composition).
Only been playing low-Masters though, so maybe it's just a matter of slightly better execution on the Protoss' part to deflect this style.
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I played, I think the guy was Masters? I don't remember. Anyway it was yesterday. I took a shot at executing this build on an extremely reaper friendly map, and the guy annihilated me with simcity of his buildings (preventing my from killing workers) and micro that wasn't totally asinine.
Once he had colossi, I was screwed, you simply can't afford vikings fast enough (because reapers are stupidly gas heavy) to deal with the colossi follow up.
http://drop.sc/378662
Mass reaper is much more suited for tvz, I have 10+ replays of me destroying players on the ladder with it.
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On April 15 2014 00:14 xRiotZx wrote:I played, I think the guy was Masters? I don't remember. Anyway it was yesterday. I took a shot at executing this build on an extremely reaper friendly map, and the guy annihilated me with simcity of his buildings (preventing my from killing workers) and micro that wasn't totally asinine. Once he had colossi, I was screwed, you simply can't afford vikings fast enough (because reapers are stupidly gas heavy) to deal with the colossi follow up. http://drop.sc/378662Mass reaper is much more suited for tvz, I have 10+ replays of me destroying players on the ladder with it.
i can't see the replay atm but you probably were just taking gases too slowly. You don't even need 16 scvs on minerals per base! you can just claim the gas immediately, even if you only have 10 scvs mining minerals per base. That should enable you to get vikings out quick enough. Also if you know its coming ( and you should defenitly have that info) you can always just build 2 starports and premake 2 reactors on your rax. Then you just have to delay for 2-3 production cycles instead of 4-6. You need some dynamic thinking about your ressource distribution.
In general, More gas nets you more units and faster tech, while more Minerals just means more Buildings. It can be rather tricky to balance it out just right. Anyways, if you see robo tech without a council, its no game breaker to skimp a bit on Reaper production to favor Vikings. If you scout a council on the otherhand, you need to be daringly delaying your starport and completely rely on the reapers until after 2-2 is started. So, if you see him being overly defensive, ie; you can't touch him at all and he hardcore turtles on 2 base, take some guys off gas, prepare vikings, sneak in some reactors, build more ccs, Raxes and just be greedy. Then when his colossus timing hits, you take all your spare scvs, cross your fingers and just hit him with a train.
@Tvz, maybe its worth a shot but i don't see how Mass reaper is supposed to deal with speedlings. Or even roaches. Perhaps you can score some easy early victories but mass mass reaper doesn't feel very promising in the matchup.simply because Zerg units are alot faster and deny your retreat.
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On April 15 2014 02:06 alpenrahm wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2014 00:14 xRiotZx wrote:I played, I think the guy was Masters? I don't remember. Anyway it was yesterday. I took a shot at executing this build on an extremely reaper friendly map, and the guy annihilated me with simcity of his buildings (preventing my from killing workers) and micro that wasn't totally asinine. Once he had colossi, I was screwed, you simply can't afford vikings fast enough (because reapers are stupidly gas heavy) to deal with the colossi follow up. http://drop.sc/378662Mass reaper is much more suited for tvz, I have 10+ replays of me destroying players on the ladder with it. i can't see the replay atm but you probably were just taking gases too slowly. You don't even need 16 scvs on minerals per base! you can just claim the gas immediately, even if you only have 10 scvs mining minerals per base. That should enable you to get vikings out quick enough. Also if you know its coming ( and you should defenitly have that info) you can always just build 2 starports and premake 2 reactors on your rax. Then you just have to delay for 2-3 production cycles instead of 4-6. You need some dynamic thinking about your ressource distribution. In general, More gas nets you more units and faster tech, while more Minerals just means more Buildings. It can be rather tricky to balance it out just right. Anyways, if you see robo tech without a council, its no game breaker to skimp a bit on Reaper production to favor Vikings. If you scout a council on the otherhand, you need to be daringly delaying your starport and completely rely on the reapers until after 2-2 is started. So, if you see him being overly defensive, ie; you can't touch him at all and he hardcore turtles on 2 base, take some guys off gas, prepare vikings, sneak in some reactors, build more ccs, Raxes and just be greedy. Then when his colossus timing hits, you take all your spare scvs, cross your fingers and just hit him with a train. @Tvz, maybe its worth a shot but i don't see how Mass reaper is supposed to deal with speedlings. Or even roaches. Perhaps you can score some easy early victories but mass mass reaper doesn't feel very promising in the matchup.simply because Zerg units are alot faster and deny your retreat.
Well... I think TvP it's too wonky... As for TvZ? How can it deal with speedlings?
Reapers chew speedlings up, as long as they can't get a clean surround, i.e. not enough lings to surround, or cliffs that you can abuse nearby. Roaches? Reapers trade cost effectively with roaches, but I never even engage against roaches, I make 3 bunkers at home in front of my nat and if they come to my base, I fill those bunkers and hold, if they don't I just keep abusing speed, snipe 3rd, when roaches come down, hop up to his main snipe a queen, so some damage to his line and run away again. The only suitable counter is mutas, and if you know when to transition, literally the only time you'll need to transition out of reapers is against speed roaches or mutas, since reapers handily deal with everything else, including banes (being faster than banes, even with bane speed). Once you're ready to transition, you should have 3 orbitals, 6 rax, 2 with tech labs starting shields and stim at the same time, a factory going down (don't worry his tech is worse than yours at this point) and reactors on the rest of your barracks. In all the replays I have I went with an MMM transition, but I've been doing strictly marine/tank lately.
I have never beaten a masters player with this build however, I have beat masters players with macro expands with some success, so I think that speaks to its viability.
http://drop.sc/378725 Versus pool first http://drop.sc/376244 Basic example http://drop.sc/378726 One of my first games with it http://drop.sc/378727 A guy holds it, my transition kills him easily http://drop.sc/376245 Don't remember what happens in this game but heh another win
These are all of the replays I know of, I probably have more that I'd have to find. I used to have a 100% wlr with this build in TvZ, it's dropped to more like 60% for some reason, I'm not sure if my MMR just went up, or if I've been doing it wrong, so I entirely stopped doing this build against masters players.
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On March 25 2014 11:52 alpenrahm wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2014 11:00 Danglars wrote: The incredibly common ideas of (1) Get a mothership core for defense and (2) Open Oracle before or after expanding present great problems that you have not addressed with discussion or good replays in your post.
The only other option would be to accept a hefty economic penalty by immediately switching to marines and hopefully having 6 before his oracle comes (let's say his foolishly loses the stalker). This opening is much inferior to expanding and then adding on rax in that situation. With chronos and strategic retreats of the stalker to mineral line (outranges, isn't easily bursted down with careful control), you aren't guaranteed high damage. well, im confident that i would be able to scout a proxy stargate and deny its production! and as for replays, i just didn´t encounter oracle play yet ^^ but i assume he wont have a MSC and an oracle and an expansion and enough stalkers to deal with my 3 reapers so his losses should be pretty even to mine with propper micro. But this is all theory craft, i have no idea how it would actually play out... maybe i could somehow get turrets in time? maybe he just dies? maybe i just bo lose? who knows ...
well,i actually be able to scout any proxy stargate,but the problem is,I can't really deny the oracle producthion with the second pylon or even three.when the first oracle pop out,I will be in very bad position. 1.it will be too late switching to marines 2.even with turrets oracle can Do damage to me 3.i will never kill the toss if i keep reaper production,even he only have one gateway. How would you face this situation?
I also simply die with one base blink stalker. (with p keep in defend position and MSC defend,I can not hurt their economy or stalker count,once the blink is done game is pretty much over.) and the new ladder map is really not favor for reaper too after 30 game practice and training,the win rate is not very good,for master level in K/T sever even for diamond.
Any way,its fun build i admit,but definitely not so fun for less 50%win rate in higher level.
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On April 16 2014 07:37 dreamdust wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2014 11:52 alpenrahm wrote:On March 25 2014 11:00 Danglars wrote: The incredibly common ideas of (1) Get a mothership core for defense and (2) Open Oracle before or after expanding present great problems that you have not addressed with discussion or good replays in your post.
The only other option would be to accept a hefty economic penalty by immediately switching to marines and hopefully having 6 before his oracle comes (let's say his foolishly loses the stalker). This opening is much inferior to expanding and then adding on rax in that situation. With chronos and strategic retreats of the stalker to mineral line (outranges, isn't easily bursted down with careful control), you aren't guaranteed high damage. well, im confident that i would be able to scout a proxy stargate and deny its production! and as for replays, i just didn´t encounter oracle play yet ^^ but i assume he wont have a MSC and an oracle and an expansion and enough stalkers to deal with my 3 reapers so his losses should be pretty even to mine with propper micro. But this is all theory craft, i have no idea how it would actually play out... maybe i could somehow get turrets in time? maybe he just dies? maybe i just bo lose? who knows ... well,i actually be able to scout any proxy stargate,but the problem is,I can't really deny the oracle producthion with the second pylon or even three.when the first oracle pop out,I will be in very bad position. 1.it will be too late switching to marines 2.even with turrets oracle can Do damage to me 3.i will never kill the toss if i keep reaper production,even he only have one gateway. How would you face this situation? I also simply die with one base blink stalker. (with p keep in defend position and MSC defend,I can not hurt their economy or stalker count,once the blink is done game is pretty much over.) and the new ladder map is really not favor for reaper too after 30 game practice and training,the win rate is not very good,for master level in K/T sever even for diamond. Any way,its fun build i admit,but definitely not so fun for less 50%win rate in higher level.
1. With a turret and a few marines you are fine, but you must have a turret in time, without it you are indeed in a lot of trouble. 2. You can easily kill the toss if he has one gateway, your reapers simply engage the stalkers head on and destroy them. 3. Vs 1base blink it is extremely important to see if they are bringing MSC or not. They usually do - which means you just counter with reapers, wipe out all the probes (and warped in stalkers as they can only do 3 at a time).
If they don't bring the MSC, you pull the reapers back to defend, which they are EXTREMELY helpful, as you defend the front you use the reapers to flank all the weakeneed stalkers that blink back. You are also able to contain the toss before they move out with the probe to get a proxy pylon for a whlie.
I struggle the most where an oracle does sufficient dmg that we're about even, and THEN they transition to 1 base blink. You can't counter because MSC at home and they get vision to the high ground and can even utilize the oracle itself to either harass or pick off marines/repairing SCVs.
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On April 19 2014 05:18 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2014 07:37 dreamdust wrote:On March 25 2014 11:52 alpenrahm wrote:On March 25 2014 11:00 Danglars wrote: The incredibly common ideas of (1) Get a mothership core for defense and (2) Open Oracle before or after expanding present great problems that you have not addressed with discussion or good replays in your post.
The only other option would be to accept a hefty economic penalty by immediately switching to marines and hopefully having 6 before his oracle comes (let's say his foolishly loses the stalker). This opening is much inferior to expanding and then adding on rax in that situation. With chronos and strategic retreats of the stalker to mineral line (outranges, isn't easily bursted down with careful control), you aren't guaranteed high damage. well, im confident that i would be able to scout a proxy stargate and deny its production! and as for replays, i just didn´t encounter oracle play yet ^^ but i assume he wont have a MSC and an oracle and an expansion and enough stalkers to deal with my 3 reapers so his losses should be pretty even to mine with propper micro. But this is all theory craft, i have no idea how it would actually play out... maybe i could somehow get turrets in time? maybe he just dies? maybe i just bo lose? who knows ... well,i actually be able to scout any proxy stargate,but the problem is,I can't really deny the oracle producthion with the second pylon or even three.when the first oracle pop out,I will be in very bad position. 1.it will be too late switching to marines 2.even with turrets oracle can Do damage to me 3.i will never kill the toss if i keep reaper production,even he only have one gateway. How would you face this situation? I also simply die with one base blink stalker. (with p keep in defend position and MSC defend,I can not hurt their economy or stalker count,once the blink is done game is pretty much over.) and the new ladder map is really not favor for reaper too after 30 game practice and training,the win rate is not very good,for master level in K/T sever even for diamond. Any way,its fun build i admit,but definitely not so fun for less 50%win rate in higher level. 1. With a turret and a few marines you are fine, but you must have a turret in time, without it you are indeed in a lot of trouble. 2. You can easily kill the toss if he has one gateway, your reapers simply engage the stalkers head on and destroy them. 3. Vs 1base blink it is extremely important to see if they are bringing MSC or not. They usually do - which means you just counter with reapers, wipe out all the probes (and warped in stalkers as they can only do 3 at a time). If they don't bring the MSC, you pull the reapers back to defend, which they are EXTREMELY helpful, as you defend the front you use the reapers to flank all the weakeneed stalkers that blink back. You are also able to contain the toss before they move out with the probe to get a proxy pylon for a whlie. I struggle the most where an oracle does sufficient dmg that we're about even, and THEN they transition to 1 base blink. You can't counter because MSC at home and they get vision to the high ground and can even utilize the oracle itself to either harass or pick off marines/repairing SCVs.
Oracles kill reapers btw. Turrets also don't move btw. It takes 5 marines to kill an oracle btw.
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On April 22 2014 16:37 xRiotZx wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2014 05:18 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 16 2014 07:37 dreamdust wrote:On March 25 2014 11:52 alpenrahm wrote:On March 25 2014 11:00 Danglars wrote: The incredibly common ideas of (1) Get a mothership core for defense and (2) Open Oracle before or after expanding present great problems that you have not addressed with discussion or good replays in your post.
The only other option would be to accept a hefty economic penalty by immediately switching to marines and hopefully having 6 before his oracle comes (let's say his foolishly loses the stalker). This opening is much inferior to expanding and then adding on rax in that situation. With chronos and strategic retreats of the stalker to mineral line (outranges, isn't easily bursted down with careful control), you aren't guaranteed high damage. well, im confident that i would be able to scout a proxy stargate and deny its production! and as for replays, i just didn´t encounter oracle play yet ^^ but i assume he wont have a MSC and an oracle and an expansion and enough stalkers to deal with my 3 reapers so his losses should be pretty even to mine with propper micro. But this is all theory craft, i have no idea how it would actually play out... maybe i could somehow get turrets in time? maybe he just dies? maybe i just bo lose? who knows ... well,i actually be able to scout any proxy stargate,but the problem is,I can't really deny the oracle producthion with the second pylon or even three.when the first oracle pop out,I will be in very bad position. 1.it will be too late switching to marines 2.even with turrets oracle can Do damage to me 3.i will never kill the toss if i keep reaper production,even he only have one gateway. How would you face this situation? I also simply die with one base blink stalker. (with p keep in defend position and MSC defend,I can not hurt their economy or stalker count,once the blink is done game is pretty much over.) and the new ladder map is really not favor for reaper too after 30 game practice and training,the win rate is not very good,for master level in K/T sever even for diamond. Any way,its fun build i admit,but definitely not so fun for less 50%win rate in higher level. 1. With a turret and a few marines you are fine, but you must have a turret in time, without it you are indeed in a lot of trouble. 2. You can easily kill the toss if he has one gateway, your reapers simply engage the stalkers head on and destroy them. 3. Vs 1base blink it is extremely important to see if they are bringing MSC or not. They usually do - which means you just counter with reapers, wipe out all the probes (and warped in stalkers as they can only do 3 at a time). If they don't bring the MSC, you pull the reapers back to defend, which they are EXTREMELY helpful, as you defend the front you use the reapers to flank all the weakeneed stalkers that blink back. You are also able to contain the toss before they move out with the probe to get a proxy pylon for a whlie. I struggle the most where an oracle does sufficient dmg that we're about even, and THEN they transition to 1 base blink. You can't counter because MSC at home and they get vision to the high ground and can even utilize the oracle itself to either harass or pick off marines/repairing SCVs. Oracles kill reapers btw. Turrets also don't move btw. It takes 5 marines to kill an oracle btw.
Yes, they do. It doesn't stop the build. No, they don't. It doesn't stop the build. Yes, it does. It doesn't stop the build.
Silly to make comments that don't account for timings during a build.
Am I saying that this reaper build counters oracles or anything like that? No, the situation is actually quite chaotic early game. But nothing you say somehow kills the build either.
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On April 23 2014 11:46 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2014 16:37 xRiotZx wrote:On April 19 2014 05:18 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 16 2014 07:37 dreamdust wrote:On March 25 2014 11:52 alpenrahm wrote:On March 25 2014 11:00 Danglars wrote: The incredibly common ideas of (1) Get a mothership core for defense and (2) Open Oracle before or after expanding present great problems that you have not addressed with discussion or good replays in your post.
The only other option would be to accept a hefty economic penalty by immediately switching to marines and hopefully having 6 before his oracle comes (let's say his foolishly loses the stalker). This opening is much inferior to expanding and then adding on rax in that situation. With chronos and strategic retreats of the stalker to mineral line (outranges, isn't easily bursted down with careful control), you aren't guaranteed high damage. well, im confident that i would be able to scout a proxy stargate and deny its production! and as for replays, i just didn´t encounter oracle play yet ^^ but i assume he wont have a MSC and an oracle and an expansion and enough stalkers to deal with my 3 reapers so his losses should be pretty even to mine with propper micro. But this is all theory craft, i have no idea how it would actually play out... maybe i could somehow get turrets in time? maybe he just dies? maybe i just bo lose? who knows ... well,i actually be able to scout any proxy stargate,but the problem is,I can't really deny the oracle producthion with the second pylon or even three.when the first oracle pop out,I will be in very bad position. 1.it will be too late switching to marines 2.even with turrets oracle can Do damage to me 3.i will never kill the toss if i keep reaper production,even he only have one gateway. How would you face this situation? I also simply die with one base blink stalker. (with p keep in defend position and MSC defend,I can not hurt their economy or stalker count,once the blink is done game is pretty much over.) and the new ladder map is really not favor for reaper too after 30 game practice and training,the win rate is not very good,for master level in K/T sever even for diamond. Any way,its fun build i admit,but definitely not so fun for less 50%win rate in higher level. 1. With a turret and a few marines you are fine, but you must have a turret in time, without it you are indeed in a lot of trouble. 2. You can easily kill the toss if he has one gateway, your reapers simply engage the stalkers head on and destroy them. 3. Vs 1base blink it is extremely important to see if they are bringing MSC or not. They usually do - which means you just counter with reapers, wipe out all the probes (and warped in stalkers as they can only do 3 at a time). If they don't bring the MSC, you pull the reapers back to defend, which they are EXTREMELY helpful, as you defend the front you use the reapers to flank all the weakeneed stalkers that blink back. You are also able to contain the toss before they move out with the probe to get a proxy pylon for a whlie. I struggle the most where an oracle does sufficient dmg that we're about even, and THEN they transition to 1 base blink. You can't counter because MSC at home and they get vision to the high ground and can even utilize the oracle itself to either harass or pick off marines/repairing SCVs. Oracles kill reapers btw. Turrets also don't move btw. It takes 5 marines to kill an oracle btw. Yes, they do. It doesn't stop the build. No, they don't. It doesn't stop the build. Yes, it does. It doesn't stop the build. Silly to make comments that don't account for timings during a build. Am I saying that this reaper build counters oracles or anything like that? No, the situation is actually quite chaotic early game. But nothing you say somehow kills the build either.
Oracle directly counters reaper, I was playing a game of 2v2 earlier, as random, I got protoss, went oracle, chased the guy's reapers around til I caught up to kill them, gg. Game was over right there.
Also, account for timings? What timings can you exploit exactly? I can have an oracle out by 5:40ish if I rush it, by then you can only have 2 reapers max unless you went 888, which I wouldn't make a stargate against 888 anyway.
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On April 24 2014 09:57 xRiotZx wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2014 11:46 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 22 2014 16:37 xRiotZx wrote:On April 19 2014 05:18 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 16 2014 07:37 dreamdust wrote:On March 25 2014 11:52 alpenrahm wrote:On March 25 2014 11:00 Danglars wrote: The incredibly common ideas of (1) Get a mothership core for defense and (2) Open Oracle before or after expanding present great problems that you have not addressed with discussion or good replays in your post.
The only other option would be to accept a hefty economic penalty by immediately switching to marines and hopefully having 6 before his oracle comes (let's say his foolishly loses the stalker). This opening is much inferior to expanding and then adding on rax in that situation. With chronos and strategic retreats of the stalker to mineral line (outranges, isn't easily bursted down with careful control), you aren't guaranteed high damage. well, im confident that i would be able to scout a proxy stargate and deny its production! and as for replays, i just didn´t encounter oracle play yet ^^ but i assume he wont have a MSC and an oracle and an expansion and enough stalkers to deal with my 3 reapers so his losses should be pretty even to mine with propper micro. But this is all theory craft, i have no idea how it would actually play out... maybe i could somehow get turrets in time? maybe he just dies? maybe i just bo lose? who knows ... well,i actually be able to scout any proxy stargate,but the problem is,I can't really deny the oracle producthion with the second pylon or even three.when the first oracle pop out,I will be in very bad position. 1.it will be too late switching to marines 2.even with turrets oracle can Do damage to me 3.i will never kill the toss if i keep reaper production,even he only have one gateway. How would you face this situation? I also simply die with one base blink stalker. (with p keep in defend position and MSC defend,I can not hurt their economy or stalker count,once the blink is done game is pretty much over.) and the new ladder map is really not favor for reaper too after 30 game practice and training,the win rate is not very good,for master level in K/T sever even for diamond. Any way,its fun build i admit,but definitely not so fun for less 50%win rate in higher level. 1. With a turret and a few marines you are fine, but you must have a turret in time, without it you are indeed in a lot of trouble. 2. You can easily kill the toss if he has one gateway, your reapers simply engage the stalkers head on and destroy them. 3. Vs 1base blink it is extremely important to see if they are bringing MSC or not. They usually do - which means you just counter with reapers, wipe out all the probes (and warped in stalkers as they can only do 3 at a time). If they don't bring the MSC, you pull the reapers back to defend, which they are EXTREMELY helpful, as you defend the front you use the reapers to flank all the weakeneed stalkers that blink back. You are also able to contain the toss before they move out with the probe to get a proxy pylon for a whlie. I struggle the most where an oracle does sufficient dmg that we're about even, and THEN they transition to 1 base blink. You can't counter because MSC at home and they get vision to the high ground and can even utilize the oracle itself to either harass or pick off marines/repairing SCVs. Oracles kill reapers btw. Turrets also don't move btw. It takes 5 marines to kill an oracle btw. Yes, they do. It doesn't stop the build. No, they don't. It doesn't stop the build. Yes, it does. It doesn't stop the build. Silly to make comments that don't account for timings during a build. Am I saying that this reaper build counters oracles or anything like that? No, the situation is actually quite chaotic early game. But nothing you say somehow kills the build either. Oracle directly counters reaper, I was playing a game of 2v2 earlier, as random, I got protoss, went oracle, chased the guy's reapers around til I caught up to kill them, gg. Game was over right there. Also, account for timings? What timings can you exploit exactly? I can have an oracle out by 5:40ish if I rush it, by then you can only have 2 reapers max unless you went 888, which I wouldn't make a stargate against 888 anyway.
It is possible to have 6 reapers at 5:40 (in my games the 5th and 6th pop at around 5:30) without going for 8/8/8. Also oracles are barely faster than reapers so if you split them up once the toss activates its attack they can only kill 1-2 at max.
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On April 24 2014 09:57 xRiotZx wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2014 11:46 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 22 2014 16:37 xRiotZx wrote:On April 19 2014 05:18 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 16 2014 07:37 dreamdust wrote:On March 25 2014 11:52 alpenrahm wrote:On March 25 2014 11:00 Danglars wrote: The incredibly common ideas of (1) Get a mothership core for defense and (2) Open Oracle before or after expanding present great problems that you have not addressed with discussion or good replays in your post.
The only other option would be to accept a hefty economic penalty by immediately switching to marines and hopefully having 6 before his oracle comes (let's say his foolishly loses the stalker). This opening is much inferior to expanding and then adding on rax in that situation. With chronos and strategic retreats of the stalker to mineral line (outranges, isn't easily bursted down with careful control), you aren't guaranteed high damage. well, im confident that i would be able to scout a proxy stargate and deny its production! and as for replays, i just didn´t encounter oracle play yet ^^ but i assume he wont have a MSC and an oracle and an expansion and enough stalkers to deal with my 3 reapers so his losses should be pretty even to mine with propper micro. But this is all theory craft, i have no idea how it would actually play out... maybe i could somehow get turrets in time? maybe he just dies? maybe i just bo lose? who knows ... well,i actually be able to scout any proxy stargate,but the problem is,I can't really deny the oracle producthion with the second pylon or even three.when the first oracle pop out,I will be in very bad position. 1.it will be too late switching to marines 2.even with turrets oracle can Do damage to me 3.i will never kill the toss if i keep reaper production,even he only have one gateway. How would you face this situation? I also simply die with one base blink stalker. (with p keep in defend position and MSC defend,I can not hurt their economy or stalker count,once the blink is done game is pretty much over.) and the new ladder map is really not favor for reaper too after 30 game practice and training,the win rate is not very good,for master level in K/T sever even for diamond. Any way,its fun build i admit,but definitely not so fun for less 50%win rate in higher level. 1. With a turret and a few marines you are fine, but you must have a turret in time, without it you are indeed in a lot of trouble. 2. You can easily kill the toss if he has one gateway, your reapers simply engage the stalkers head on and destroy them. 3. Vs 1base blink it is extremely important to see if they are bringing MSC or not. They usually do - which means you just counter with reapers, wipe out all the probes (and warped in stalkers as they can only do 3 at a time). If they don't bring the MSC, you pull the reapers back to defend, which they are EXTREMELY helpful, as you defend the front you use the reapers to flank all the weakeneed stalkers that blink back. You are also able to contain the toss before they move out with the probe to get a proxy pylon for a whlie. I struggle the most where an oracle does sufficient dmg that we're about even, and THEN they transition to 1 base blink. You can't counter because MSC at home and they get vision to the high ground and can even utilize the oracle itself to either harass or pick off marines/repairing SCVs. Oracles kill reapers btw. Turrets also don't move btw. It takes 5 marines to kill an oracle btw. Yes, they do. It doesn't stop the build. No, they don't. It doesn't stop the build. Yes, it does. It doesn't stop the build. Silly to make comments that don't account for timings during a build. Am I saying that this reaper build counters oracles or anything like that? No, the situation is actually quite chaotic early game. But nothing you say somehow kills the build either. Oracle directly counters reaper, I was playing a game of 2v2 earlier, as random, I got protoss, went oracle, chased the guy's reapers around til I caught up to kill them, gg. Game was over right there. Also, account for timings? What timings can you exploit exactly? I can have an oracle out by 5:40ish if I rush it, by then you can only have 2 reapers max unless you went 888, which I wouldn't make a stargate against 888 anyway.
Are you trolling?
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On April 24 2014 09:57 xRiotZx wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2014 11:46 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 22 2014 16:37 xRiotZx wrote:On April 19 2014 05:18 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 16 2014 07:37 dreamdust wrote:On March 25 2014 11:52 alpenrahm wrote:On March 25 2014 11:00 Danglars wrote: The incredibly common ideas of (1) Get a mothership core for defense and (2) Open Oracle before or after expanding present great problems that you have not addressed with discussion or good replays in your post.
The only other option would be to accept a hefty economic penalty by immediately switching to marines and hopefully having 6 before his oracle comes (let's say his foolishly loses the stalker). This opening is much inferior to expanding and then adding on rax in that situation. With chronos and strategic retreats of the stalker to mineral line (outranges, isn't easily bursted down with careful control), you aren't guaranteed high damage. well, im confident that i would be able to scout a proxy stargate and deny its production! and as for replays, i just didn´t encounter oracle play yet ^^ but i assume he wont have a MSC and an oracle and an expansion and enough stalkers to deal with my 3 reapers so his losses should be pretty even to mine with propper micro. But this is all theory craft, i have no idea how it would actually play out... maybe i could somehow get turrets in time? maybe he just dies? maybe i just bo lose? who knows ... well,i actually be able to scout any proxy stargate,but the problem is,I can't really deny the oracle producthion with the second pylon or even three.when the first oracle pop out,I will be in very bad position. 1.it will be too late switching to marines 2.even with turrets oracle can Do damage to me 3.i will never kill the toss if i keep reaper production,even he only have one gateway. How would you face this situation? I also simply die with one base blink stalker. (with p keep in defend position and MSC defend,I can not hurt their economy or stalker count,once the blink is done game is pretty much over.) and the new ladder map is really not favor for reaper too after 30 game practice and training,the win rate is not very good,for master level in K/T sever even for diamond. Any way,its fun build i admit,but definitely not so fun for less 50%win rate in higher level. 1. With a turret and a few marines you are fine, but you must have a turret in time, without it you are indeed in a lot of trouble. 2. You can easily kill the toss if he has one gateway, your reapers simply engage the stalkers head on and destroy them. 3. Vs 1base blink it is extremely important to see if they are bringing MSC or not. They usually do - which means you just counter with reapers, wipe out all the probes (and warped in stalkers as they can only do 3 at a time). If they don't bring the MSC, you pull the reapers back to defend, which they are EXTREMELY helpful, as you defend the front you use the reapers to flank all the weakeneed stalkers that blink back. You are also able to contain the toss before they move out with the probe to get a proxy pylon for a whlie. I struggle the most where an oracle does sufficient dmg that we're about even, and THEN they transition to 1 base blink. You can't counter because MSC at home and they get vision to the high ground and can even utilize the oracle itself to either harass or pick off marines/repairing SCVs. Oracles kill reapers btw. Turrets also don't move btw. It takes 5 marines to kill an oracle btw. Yes, they do. It doesn't stop the build. No, they don't. It doesn't stop the build. Yes, it does. It doesn't stop the build. Silly to make comments that don't account for timings during a build. Am I saying that this reaper build counters oracles or anything like that? No, the situation is actually quite chaotic early game. But nothing you say somehow kills the build either. Oracle directly counters reaper, I was playing a game of 2v2 earlier, as random, I got protoss, went oracle, chased the guy's reapers around til I caught up to kill them, gg. Game was over right there. Also, account for timings? What timings can you exploit exactly? I can have an oracle out by 5:40ish if I rush it, by then you can only have 2 reapers max unless you went 888, which I wouldn't make a stargate against 888 anyway. What makes you think 2v2 has any relevance to this strategy? Your information about timings is also greatly incorrect. With the double reactor opening you can have 5 reapers by 5:40, but you wouldn't against oracle because your first reaper would have already scouted either:
1. in-base stargate 2. Protoss is doing a proxy
In either case, you can pump out marines instead of reapers from double reactor barracks, giving you 8 marines by the time the first oracle can fly into the Terran base.
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On April 25 2014 11:24 iamcaustic wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2014 09:57 xRiotZx wrote:On April 23 2014 11:46 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 22 2014 16:37 xRiotZx wrote:On April 19 2014 05:18 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 16 2014 07:37 dreamdust wrote:On March 25 2014 11:52 alpenrahm wrote:On March 25 2014 11:00 Danglars wrote: The incredibly common ideas of (1) Get a mothership core for defense and (2) Open Oracle before or after expanding present great problems that you have not addressed with discussion or good replays in your post.
The only other option would be to accept a hefty economic penalty by immediately switching to marines and hopefully having 6 before his oracle comes (let's say his foolishly loses the stalker). This opening is much inferior to expanding and then adding on rax in that situation. With chronos and strategic retreats of the stalker to mineral line (outranges, isn't easily bursted down with careful control), you aren't guaranteed high damage. well, im confident that i would be able to scout a proxy stargate and deny its production! and as for replays, i just didn´t encounter oracle play yet ^^ but i assume he wont have a MSC and an oracle and an expansion and enough stalkers to deal with my 3 reapers so his losses should be pretty even to mine with propper micro. But this is all theory craft, i have no idea how it would actually play out... maybe i could somehow get turrets in time? maybe he just dies? maybe i just bo lose? who knows ... well,i actually be able to scout any proxy stargate,but the problem is,I can't really deny the oracle producthion with the second pylon or even three.when the first oracle pop out,I will be in very bad position. 1.it will be too late switching to marines 2.even with turrets oracle can Do damage to me 3.i will never kill the toss if i keep reaper production,even he only have one gateway. How would you face this situation? I also simply die with one base blink stalker. (with p keep in defend position and MSC defend,I can not hurt their economy or stalker count,once the blink is done game is pretty much over.) and the new ladder map is really not favor for reaper too after 30 game practice and training,the win rate is not very good,for master level in K/T sever even for diamond. Any way,its fun build i admit,but definitely not so fun for less 50%win rate in higher level. 1. With a turret and a few marines you are fine, but you must have a turret in time, without it you are indeed in a lot of trouble. 2. You can easily kill the toss if he has one gateway, your reapers simply engage the stalkers head on and destroy them. 3. Vs 1base blink it is extremely important to see if they are bringing MSC or not. They usually do - which means you just counter with reapers, wipe out all the probes (and warped in stalkers as they can only do 3 at a time). If they don't bring the MSC, you pull the reapers back to defend, which they are EXTREMELY helpful, as you defend the front you use the reapers to flank all the weakeneed stalkers that blink back. You are also able to contain the toss before they move out with the probe to get a proxy pylon for a whlie. I struggle the most where an oracle does sufficient dmg that we're about even, and THEN they transition to 1 base blink. You can't counter because MSC at home and they get vision to the high ground and can even utilize the oracle itself to either harass or pick off marines/repairing SCVs. Oracles kill reapers btw. Turrets also don't move btw. It takes 5 marines to kill an oracle btw. Yes, they do. It doesn't stop the build. No, they don't. It doesn't stop the build. Yes, it does. It doesn't stop the build. Silly to make comments that don't account for timings during a build. Am I saying that this reaper build counters oracles or anything like that? No, the situation is actually quite chaotic early game. But nothing you say somehow kills the build either. Oracle directly counters reaper, I was playing a game of 2v2 earlier, as random, I got protoss, went oracle, chased the guy's reapers around til I caught up to kill them, gg. Game was over right there. Also, account for timings? What timings can you exploit exactly? I can have an oracle out by 5:40ish if I rush it, by then you can only have 2 reapers max unless you went 888, which I wouldn't make a stargate against 888 anyway. What makes you think 2v2 has any relevance to this strategy? Your information about timings is also greatly incorrect. With the double reactor opening you can have 5 reapers by 5:40, but you wouldn't against oracle because your first reaper would have already scouted either: 1. in-base stargate 2. Protoss is doing a proxy In either case, you can pump out marines instead of reapers from double reactor barracks, giving you 8 marines by the time the first oracle can fly into the Terran base.
"But you wouldn't" -> Retarded statement because once you stop making reapers, I have total map control, and can expand as much as I want.
I doubt you can have 5 reapers by that time, but assuming you do, you delayed your first 3 by well over a minute once you go reactor.
I go in base stargate, I put it behind my mineral line, there's no way for you to stop it, and there's no need for me to tech switch, because I force 2-3 turrets and marine production, so you stop your reaper harass totally, allowing me to expand, and you spend 325-425 minerals on turrets, giving me a 425 mineral lead on you, which is the equivalent cost of a Nexus.
But this is all theory crafting. You couldn't beat my friend with the build, I doubt you can beat me with it, and I don't even play toss, moreover zerg is my 2nd race. Opening 2 rax against protoss is viable but, after a little trot into the midgame, once he has his bearings, you're never going to do any damage. I wouldn't make more than 6 reapers in a TvP, and even that is extremely risky vs an oracle first opening.
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I faced this on the ladder yesterday. It's stupid.
You just add a couple of gateways, make a whole bunch of Stalkers, and tech to Colossus.
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On April 25 2014 23:43 xRiotZx wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2014 11:24 iamcaustic wrote:On April 24 2014 09:57 xRiotZx wrote:On April 23 2014 11:46 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 22 2014 16:37 xRiotZx wrote:On April 19 2014 05:18 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 16 2014 07:37 dreamdust wrote:On March 25 2014 11:52 alpenrahm wrote:On March 25 2014 11:00 Danglars wrote: The incredibly common ideas of (1) Get a mothership core for defense and (2) Open Oracle before or after expanding present great problems that you have not addressed with discussion or good replays in your post.
The only other option would be to accept a hefty economic penalty by immediately switching to marines and hopefully having 6 before his oracle comes (let's say his foolishly loses the stalker). This opening is much inferior to expanding and then adding on rax in that situation. With chronos and strategic retreats of the stalker to mineral line (outranges, isn't easily bursted down with careful control), you aren't guaranteed high damage. well, im confident that i would be able to scout a proxy stargate and deny its production! and as for replays, i just didn´t encounter oracle play yet ^^ but i assume he wont have a MSC and an oracle and an expansion and enough stalkers to deal with my 3 reapers so his losses should be pretty even to mine with propper micro. But this is all theory craft, i have no idea how it would actually play out... maybe i could somehow get turrets in time? maybe he just dies? maybe i just bo lose? who knows ... well,i actually be able to scout any proxy stargate,but the problem is,I can't really deny the oracle producthion with the second pylon or even three.when the first oracle pop out,I will be in very bad position. 1.it will be too late switching to marines 2.even with turrets oracle can Do damage to me 3.i will never kill the toss if i keep reaper production,even he only have one gateway. How would you face this situation? I also simply die with one base blink stalker. (with p keep in defend position and MSC defend,I can not hurt their economy or stalker count,once the blink is done game is pretty much over.) and the new ladder map is really not favor for reaper too after 30 game practice and training,the win rate is not very good,for master level in K/T sever even for diamond. Any way,its fun build i admit,but definitely not so fun for less 50%win rate in higher level. 1. With a turret and a few marines you are fine, but you must have a turret in time, without it you are indeed in a lot of trouble. 2. You can easily kill the toss if he has one gateway, your reapers simply engage the stalkers head on and destroy them. 3. Vs 1base blink it is extremely important to see if they are bringing MSC or not. They usually do - which means you just counter with reapers, wipe out all the probes (and warped in stalkers as they can only do 3 at a time). If they don't bring the MSC, you pull the reapers back to defend, which they are EXTREMELY helpful, as you defend the front you use the reapers to flank all the weakeneed stalkers that blink back. You are also able to contain the toss before they move out with the probe to get a proxy pylon for a whlie. I struggle the most where an oracle does sufficient dmg that we're about even, and THEN they transition to 1 base blink. You can't counter because MSC at home and they get vision to the high ground and can even utilize the oracle itself to either harass or pick off marines/repairing SCVs. Oracles kill reapers btw. Turrets also don't move btw. It takes 5 marines to kill an oracle btw. Yes, they do. It doesn't stop the build. No, they don't. It doesn't stop the build. Yes, it does. It doesn't stop the build. Silly to make comments that don't account for timings during a build. Am I saying that this reaper build counters oracles or anything like that? No, the situation is actually quite chaotic early game. But nothing you say somehow kills the build either. Oracle directly counters reaper, I was playing a game of 2v2 earlier, as random, I got protoss, went oracle, chased the guy's reapers around til I caught up to kill them, gg. Game was over right there. Also, account for timings? What timings can you exploit exactly? I can have an oracle out by 5:40ish if I rush it, by then you can only have 2 reapers max unless you went 888, which I wouldn't make a stargate against 888 anyway. What makes you think 2v2 has any relevance to this strategy? Your information about timings is also greatly incorrect. With the double reactor opening you can have 5 reapers by 5:40, but you wouldn't against oracle because your first reaper would have already scouted either: 1. in-base stargate 2. Protoss is doing a proxy In either case, you can pump out marines instead of reapers from double reactor barracks, giving you 8 marines by the time the first oracle can fly into the Terran base. "But you wouldn't" -> Retarded statement because once you stop making reapers, I have total map control, and can expand as much as I want. Do you even know how to play TvP? For the two previous seasons, I've had over 90% TvP win rate (vs Diamond and Masters) by punishing tech expands with 4-5 marine production -- stargate sucks against early mass marine and photon overcharge only lets you hold for 60 seconds. My nat finishes around the same time yours falls. The only current PvT build that holds the nat against this is the 1-gate robo expand into 3 gates, and only if your forcefield placement is smart (only had mid-Master+ pull it off reliably).
On April 25 2014 23:43 xRiotZx wrote: I doubt you can have 5 reapers by that time, but assuming you do, you delayed your first 3 by well over a minute once you go reactor. Why don't you actually research and try the build instead of assuming things? We already told you the timings, you plug your ears and pretend it's a fantasy.
On April 25 2014 23:43 xRiotZx wrote: I go in base stargate, I put it behind my mineral line, there's no way for you to stop it, and there's no need for me to tech switch, because I force 2-3 turrets and marine production, so you stop your reaper harass totally, allowing me to expand, and you spend 325-425 minerals on turrets, giving me a 425 mineral lead on you, which is the equivalent cost of a Nexus. Putting it in your base means the first reaper scouts it. I proceed to pump out marines (as previously noted) and punish your nat. The only thing I need to worry about is a 1-base gateway/oracle bust, but that's easily spotted with the first reaper checking the nexus timing.
On April 25 2014 23:43 xRiotZx wrote: But this is all theory crafting. No, you're the only one theory crafting (and poorly at that). I've been enjoying a 90%+ TvP win rate the past few seasons (don't ask me about my TvZ though...).
On April 25 2014 23:43 xRiotZx wrote: You couldn't beat my friend with the build My dad can beat up your dad.
On April 25 2014 23:43 xRiotZx wrote: I doubt you can beat me with it, and I don't even play toss, moreover zerg is my 2nd race. Opening 2 rax against protoss is viable but, after a little trot into the midgame, once he has his bearings, you're never going to do any damage. I wouldn't make more than 6 reapers in a TvP, and even that is extremely risky vs an oracle first opening.
I'd be more than willing to put that to the test. Unless you're a mid-to-high Master (not off racing), I'm quite confident I'll win. Well, that or you pick one of my vetoes and I'm at a loss for my scouting. Feel free to send me a PM if you want to set up a time.
p.s. my vetoes are King Sejong Station, Waystation, and Alterzim Stronghold. Pretty standard weeding out of terrible ladder maps.
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On April 25 2014 23:43 xRiotZx wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2014 11:24 iamcaustic wrote:On April 24 2014 09:57 xRiotZx wrote:On April 23 2014 11:46 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 22 2014 16:37 xRiotZx wrote:On April 19 2014 05:18 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 16 2014 07:37 dreamdust wrote:On March 25 2014 11:52 alpenrahm wrote:On March 25 2014 11:00 Danglars wrote: The incredibly common ideas of (1) Get a mothership core for defense and (2) Open Oracle before or after expanding present great problems that you have not addressed with discussion or good replays in your post.
The only other option would be to accept a hefty economic penalty by immediately switching to marines and hopefully having 6 before his oracle comes (let's say his foolishly loses the stalker). This opening is much inferior to expanding and then adding on rax in that situation. With chronos and strategic retreats of the stalker to mineral line (outranges, isn't easily bursted down with careful control), you aren't guaranteed high damage. well, im confident that i would be able to scout a proxy stargate and deny its production! and as for replays, i just didn´t encounter oracle play yet ^^ but i assume he wont have a MSC and an oracle and an expansion and enough stalkers to deal with my 3 reapers so his losses should be pretty even to mine with propper micro. But this is all theory craft, i have no idea how it would actually play out... maybe i could somehow get turrets in time? maybe he just dies? maybe i just bo lose? who knows ... well,i actually be able to scout any proxy stargate,but the problem is,I can't really deny the oracle producthion with the second pylon or even three.when the first oracle pop out,I will be in very bad position. 1.it will be too late switching to marines 2.even with turrets oracle can Do damage to me 3.i will never kill the toss if i keep reaper production,even he only have one gateway. How would you face this situation? I also simply die with one base blink stalker. (with p keep in defend position and MSC defend,I can not hurt their economy or stalker count,once the blink is done game is pretty much over.) and the new ladder map is really not favor for reaper too after 30 game practice and training,the win rate is not very good,for master level in K/T sever even for diamond. Any way,its fun build i admit,but definitely not so fun for less 50%win rate in higher level. 1. With a turret and a few marines you are fine, but you must have a turret in time, without it you are indeed in a lot of trouble. 2. You can easily kill the toss if he has one gateway, your reapers simply engage the stalkers head on and destroy them. 3. Vs 1base blink it is extremely important to see if they are bringing MSC or not. They usually do - which means you just counter with reapers, wipe out all the probes (and warped in stalkers as they can only do 3 at a time). If they don't bring the MSC, you pull the reapers back to defend, which they are EXTREMELY helpful, as you defend the front you use the reapers to flank all the weakeneed stalkers that blink back. You are also able to contain the toss before they move out with the probe to get a proxy pylon for a whlie. I struggle the most where an oracle does sufficient dmg that we're about even, and THEN they transition to 1 base blink. You can't counter because MSC at home and they get vision to the high ground and can even utilize the oracle itself to either harass or pick off marines/repairing SCVs. Oracles kill reapers btw. Turrets also don't move btw. It takes 5 marines to kill an oracle btw. Yes, they do. It doesn't stop the build. No, they don't. It doesn't stop the build. Yes, it does. It doesn't stop the build. Silly to make comments that don't account for timings during a build. Am I saying that this reaper build counters oracles or anything like that? No, the situation is actually quite chaotic early game. But nothing you say somehow kills the build either. Oracle directly counters reaper, I was playing a game of 2v2 earlier, as random, I got protoss, went oracle, chased the guy's reapers around til I caught up to kill them, gg. Game was over right there. Also, account for timings? What timings can you exploit exactly? I can have an oracle out by 5:40ish if I rush it, by then you can only have 2 reapers max unless you went 888, which I wouldn't make a stargate against 888 anyway. What makes you think 2v2 has any relevance to this strategy? Your information about timings is also greatly incorrect. With the double reactor opening you can have 5 reapers by 5:40, but you wouldn't against oracle because your first reaper would have already scouted either: 1. in-base stargate 2. Protoss is doing a proxy In either case, you can pump out marines instead of reapers from double reactor barracks, giving you 8 marines by the time the first oracle can fly into the Terran base. "But you wouldn't" -> Retarded statement because once you stop making reapers, I have total map control, and can expand as much as I want. I doubt you can have 5 reapers by that time, but assuming you do, you delayed your first 3 by well over a minute once you go reactor. I go in base stargate, I put it behind my mineral line, there's no way for you to stop it, and there's no need for me to tech switch, because I force 2-3 turrets and marine production, so you stop your reaper harass totally, allowing me to expand, and you spend 325-425 minerals on turrets, giving me a 425 mineral lead on you, which is the equivalent cost of a Nexus. But this is all theory crafting. You couldn't beat my friend with the build, I doubt you can beat me with it, and I don't even play toss, moreover zerg is my 2nd race. Opening 2 rax against protoss is viable but, after a little trot into the midgame, once he has his bearings, you're never going to do any damage. I wouldn't make more than 6 reapers in a TvP, and even that is extremely risky vs an oracle first opening.
You are mindblowingly incompetent with your replies. You're not even trying to figure it out, you're completely guessing everything, and wrong at that.
No, you can't expand as much as you want, that's utterly ridiculous. Try expanding twice after.
You put it behind your mineral line and the Terran will build cc inbase before protoss, then build an ebay, and if you try to pressure with your oracle he will counter with his reapers.
Ebay in this case is after expansion and wanted vs Stargate play anyways. And no, I don't need 3 turrets vs an Oracle, that's utterly ridiculous.
I lost to your friend's midgame push after the early game - after I expanded extremely late (well over 400 minerals) and forgot the orbital for even longer, didn't followup with most of the other stuff in time, did not scout his immortal push out because I didn't know the map (had reapers out ahead but he went around them), and killed me on a 2base immortal push when I had teched to 3orbital and double ebay. Give me a break.
Your friend also had played a ridiculous amount of games that week, and I had mentioned I hadn't played in a month, and he was ranked higher. You're making ridiculous comparisons from a single game under those scenarios.
The build is also weaker on maps where there's no access to the main without going through the natural and if there's a natural ramp, which this map had those features. Harder to poke with a natural ramp.
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On April 26 2014 14:40 FabledIntegral wrote: You put it behind your mineral line and the Terran will build cc inbase before protoss, then build an ebay, and if you try to pressure with your oracle he will counter with his reapers. That's another way of going about it, if you're not into marine counter-response. Can get a bit dicey though, if you're not properly protecting both gas geysers with turrets.
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On April 28 2014 05:20 iamcaustic wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2014 14:40 FabledIntegral wrote: You put it behind your mineral line and the Terran will build cc inbase before protoss, then build an ebay, and if you try to pressure with your oracle he will counter with his reapers. That's another way of going about it, if you're not into marine counter-response. Can get a bit dicey though, if you're not properly protecting both gas geysers with turrets.
From personal experience, you just need to have a single turret, no more. Given you have two-rax and two-reactor, you just rally marines to the turret in the middle of the mineral line, allowing you to accumulate marines w/o dying. If the oracle activates its charge, you just pull scvs from gas - but at this point you no longer even need gas because you're mineral starved because you've been mining from dual geyser and switched to marine production. All the protoss production after the first oracle then goes into stalker (as they are limited to two gas on this point and cannot support additional oracles).
It definitely gets dicey, but the overall build is fairly dicey and plays on edge the entire way. I'm just very familiar with it at this point. I will admit the new map pool is substantially less favorable to this play than the previous map pool, however.
I've personally had extreme success with the build against blink stalker builds that everyone keeps saying is a counter, just because you have a reaper count that can take on typically up to 4 stalkers - you pin them in their base until about 5, in which you can threaten counters, buying time and knowing the build, you just build bunkers at the point they can build up, pull scvs to the bunkers preemptively (extremely important), and rely on dual mule production for mules while teching to medivacs/stim. As mentioned prior, reapers then flank the weak blink stalkers that blink out - which is usually the issue with why Terran is so weak to early game blink stalkers (can't ever kill them).
I'm not saying a 1base immortal push doesn't counter this, but I have still yet to encounter it, so rather than do what the xriotzx person is doing and make random misc. claims, I won't make any claims on whether or not it holds up to it because, alas, I do not know the timings.
Also clearly not stating this is some OP undiscovered strategy, just that it holds up and has its own perks far more than people give it credit for, and is a way to punish a Protoss for being overly greedy without going all-in. If a Protoss responds ideally in every aspect, I'm sure they could come out ahead. But it's the same if they go Nex first and you go 1rax CC, etc.
From personal experience, it's been far less all-in than what a 2rax push was against 1 gate expo in WoL, because you actually keep all your reapers alive and they regen to full health, it gives you map control and lets you know when a counter is coming. In WoL 2rax, you had to attack and do significant damage or you were notably behind.
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iamcaustic, I would like to test this build with you. I'm master NA/EU/KR toss, PM me if u want to play. I initially thought this build would work but its one of those builds that work on ladder because all games are bo1s (unless u meet same person of course). This is similar to any other unortohodox builds like proxy tempest PvT (100% winrate with it so far). or fake voidray rush into 6:00 DT (PvP).
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On April 28 2014 11:03 Xinzoe wrote: iamcaustic, I would like to test this build with you. I'm master NA/EU/KR toss, PM me if u want to play. I initially thought this build would work but its one of those builds that work on ladder because all games are bo1s (unless u meet same person of course). This is similar to any other unortohodox builds like proxy tempest PvT (100% winrate with it so far). or fake voidray rush into 6:00 DT (PvP). For everyone except professional players, builds that only work for ladder are good enough. This is also the kind of build you'd likely see players pull out for a Proleague match once in a blue moon, if the conditions were right. I certainly agree it's not a standard build; it has a number of obvious counters, none of which are standard for PvT at the moment, which is why the build works so well. Like I said before, it makes for a nice little weapon to have in the pocket.
Long story short, I agree with your assessment, though it's still a perfectly good build to have.
With your triple region Masters, I dare say I'd have to take you on as I normally do in TvP to beat you, rather than guaranteeing a particular build. I honestly don't believe Terran holds a chance against Protoss if the Protoss player is able to adequately prepare from the very start of the game (assuming equal skill, let alone the Protoss being higher ranked). We need windows of opportunity to catch you off guard and hollow you out, whether that's unexpected drops, sudden early mass reapers, early bio timings (Polt stim style, for example), etc. When the Protoss is prepared, the Protoss wins. It's the current nature of the matchup: Terran guerrilla warfare.
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I just made an account here because I found this thread while googling mass reaper and had to respond.
I'm a master level cannon rusher, and a few months ago I decided to try mass reaper in 4v4, and then tried it in 1v1 with surprising results.
I'm currently around mid-diamond MMR with it, which I'm sure is higher than I could get with traditional terran macro because I'm simply bad at it (offrace, and my main race is cannon rushing into blink all in).
Anyway, the real point of this is that any mass reaper enthusiasts here would probably appreciate my appearance on Funday Monday (2 mass reaper tvp games cast by day[9]) over here
I've also been using mass reaper against zerg and terran, and have great success tvt except vs banshees, and am good tvz until mutas pop out.
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On July 07 2014 11:39 printf wrote:I just made an account here because I found this thread while googling mass reaper and had to respond. I'm a master level cannon rusher, and a few months ago I decided to try mass reaper in 4v4, and then tried it in 1v1 with surprising results. I'm currently around mid-diamond MMR with it, which I'm sure is higher than I could get with traditional terran macro because I'm simply bad at it (offrace, and my main race is cannon rushing into blink all in). Anyway, the real point of this is that any mass reaper enthusiasts here would probably appreciate my appearance on Funday Monday (2 mass reaper tvp games cast by day[9]) over hereI've also been using mass reaper against zerg and terran, and have great success tvt except vs banshees, and am good tvz until mutas pop out.
you r the man!
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I always wanted to try this one before I changed from Zerg to Terran. Now that my macro is better I will give it not one but a lot of shots :D Also was thinking,could it be interesting to add WM later on in the game ? Provocking with the Reapers and make the enemy waltz through the mines.
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Mass Reaper requires a bad response from Protoss to really be effective, or a Nexus first since that delays his Cybernetics Core (for MSC and Stalkers).
Against any regular play, Protoss can just make a few Stalkers and be fine. A Stalker can hold off two Reapers without much effort and as the Stalker numbers grow, they can start one-shotting Reapers together, which Reapers cannot do in return. Each Reaper takes 45 seconds to build, compared to 42 seconds for a Stalker (out of a Gateway).
If the MSC or Proxy Oracle arrives, you have nothing to defend yourself with. Since all your gas is going into Reapers (delaying all tech) you can't get a Factory and Widow Mines out. This leaves only Turrets as your defense, which further eat into your minerals and an Oracle/MSC can still choose to camp over any area that isn't defended by Turrets. The fastest Proxy Oracle hits at 5:05 so you have to have a Turret completed by then, meaning the Engineering Bay has to start at around 4:05 at the latest. Even if you have all that, the Oracle can just turn around and defend at home, since your Reapers can't shoot the Oracle.
Against a Nexus first or no Stalker/MSC, it can be effective since Reapers can easily kite Zealots and then start to kill Probes, but Stalkers and MSC just shut this down too easily and it does not require deviation for Protoss. For Terran however, going for more than one Reaper is a serious deviation, delaying Marine production, Factory/Starport timing, stim/combat shield and any upgrades. The amount of damage you have to do compared to how easily it is to hold off for Protoss makes it rarely worth it.
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