I seriously don't understand how one can effectively engage the protoss army. I tried dropping to force him out of position but he just calmly warped in units and then rolled over me. TvP is the bane of my promotion to diamond.I have a 81% record in TvT and my TvZ hovers between 50-55%, yet my tvp is barely 40%. Any help is appreciated and welcome.
[H] Engagement in TvP
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dvb
Czech Republic4 Posts
I seriously don't understand how one can effectively engage the protoss army. I tried dropping to force him out of position but he just calmly warped in units and then rolled over me. TvP is the bane of my promotion to diamond.I have a 81% record in TvT and my TvZ hovers between 50-55%, yet my tvp is barely 40%. Any help is appreciated and welcome. | ||
Ctone23
United States1839 Posts
I'm unable to view the replay atm but will do so when I get home later this afternoon... If I see a Protoss going to a macro style with colossi/storm, I get around 17-20 vikings and just kite/snipe the colossi, I use such a high number of vikings so I can one-shot the colossi, I never win a TvP if I take a straight up fight, I have to widdle away. It's important for me to separately hotkey my army so that I can position my ghost force to emp the HT's once I snipe out the colossi with my vikings. | ||
dvb
Czech Republic4 Posts
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TheFlock
United States389 Posts
Like Ctone23, I've always noticed that using my vikings to hit and run on the collosi usually is able to whittle down their numbers quite effectively and forces the protoss to control his army better. I normally use the middle of the map and terrain to my advantage in viking guerrilla tactics, but if i get caught in my base, it makes the fight much harder In my games i tend to rush my upgrades as well and have found that it has won me some games in the deathball scenario before it gets into the late game Personally i am not great with my army/ghost control vs HT so im not much help there haha | ||
Ctone23
United States1839 Posts
On March 27 2014 03:21 dvb wrote: I can hold various all-ins with relative ease but I really struggle against macro toss. Once they get the deathball I'm pretty much screwed. I usually aim for marauder heavy composition with some vikings and ghosts thrown in there. Actually, judging by my other replays I seem to skimp on my viking numbers which then hurts me a lot more than what it seems like. When do you generally add a second starport? Once you see the rising number of collosi or is there any other rule of thumb? I personally poke around the protoss 3rd base at 11-12 minutes with 2 medivacs and marine/raud. I throw my 3rd base down in my natural before pushing out. I'll throw down the 2nd starport at that time as well, but sometimes I scan and see 3 robos, so i'll make a third starport as well. My lategame comp is something like, Medivac (4-5), Viking (16-17), marauder, hellbat (Blue flame is you can afford it), and ghost. Marines are mixed in here and there, but I personally start throwing them away after a while. Colossi and Storm just absolutely decimate marines. | ||
Isarios
United States153 Posts
Polt pre-splits, which helps vs storm and colossi. I'm looking for help in this area too. What's the best way to control MMMVG? I have MMMV in main army hotkey Ghosts on separate hotkey following a marine (in case I forget to move both control groups). Vikings also on a separate hotkey to do snipes. I always get bugged down though by the first few seconds of battle. And caught not looking at my army a lot. | ||
Ctone23
United States1839 Posts
On March 27 2014 05:07 Isarios wrote: Hero vs Polt IEM finals Polt pre-splits, which helps vs storm and colossi. I'm looking for help in this area too. What's the best way to control MMMVG? I have MMMV in main army hotkey Ghosts on separate hotkey following a marine (in case I forget to move both control groups). Vikings also on a separate hotkey to do snipes. I always get bugged down though by the first few seconds of battle. And caught not looking at my army a lot. I usually just hotkey my main army, with vikings to 1, then ghosts to 2. I will move my army in ways to get a good engagement, and if I see an opportunity to snipe some colossi I will simply cntl+click the vikings to control them alone. It's a bit too difficult for me to use 3 separate HK's in perfect unison versus a death-ball protoss army that deals damage insanely fast. Make no mistake, it's not easy to get a good engagement, which is why I like to posture in the middle of the map/take small forces of marines that I really don't want in my composition anyway to go hunt for pylons, etc. If you get corned vs colossi/storm then it's GG, simple as that. You have to be able to kite and slowly pick off colossi/dodge storm. Most Protoss players will walk the colossi back and blink under your vikings, so you either need to commit at that point with the rest of your amry and shift+right_click each colossi with the vikings, or try and run away for a better engagement, just keep in mind you will lose a lot of viking regardless. | ||
phantomfive
Korea (South)404 Posts
The main battle that killed you was at ~17 minutes. The attack was uncoordinated, first the vikings went in, then the ground army went in. That allowed him to fight each half of your army separately, which gave him the advantage. It wasn't really the collosus that killed you, it was the storms. Consider pre-splitting your army as you approach. During the storms, I counted you lost something like 30 marines, but only 1 marauder. Make more marauders. You didn't have any ghosts. EMP is like storm for terrans, plus they have a lot of hit points. Get ghosts. Your drop play can be improved. You sent two medivacs full of units to drop, and they got destroyed. If you had been a little more careful with them, and escaped, you could have hit your big attack with a maxed out army two minutes earlier, when the protoss was much smaller. Think how much more powerful your attack would have been. When you see a giant protoss army outside the base, chances are they don't have much inside the base. Put your guys in medivacs and drop them inside. As soon as their army moves back to defend, go back and attack in the front. Chip them down little by little until you have more, then smash them. | ||
dyDrawer
Canada438 Posts
1. Composition. You were too Marine heavy. Against a Blink/Colossus composition you want heavy Marauders. They tank Colossus shots way better, and because he's gonna be relatively Zealot light, Marauders are better against Stalkers. Against a Zealot/Templar composition you might wanna be just a tad Marine heavy, to add the DPS against Zealots. 2. I still believe the best way to combat any Colossus opening that commits is an SCV pull timing with double Starports. Especially that his build is pretty outdated. No Charge at 18:30. Twilight so delayed. Upgrades so delayed (looking at the timing of his Robotics Bay and the delayed Forge, I thought for a while that he might go for a Colossus timing). At the 15 minute, 15:30 mark I don't see him having any chance of holding an SCV pull: he's behind in upgrades, behind in supply, and with no Storm or Charge. Even if you're not a big fan of SCV pulls, having double Starport is probably not a bad idea anyway. Colossus openings phased out of the metagame in the first place largely due to the threat of SCV pulls. Other than this flaw, they're very solid, so I would advise exploiting that weakness. 3. Don't underestimate Stalkers. Especially after attack upgrade, they kill Vikings deceptively fast. Don't ever suicide Vikings against Colossus without ground support. Protoss can easily micro against this, and Vikings are very valuable to you. Not just because of cost, but also the production. 4. When Storm enters play, it becomes significantly harder for the Terran to get good engagements. You have to control Vikings properly, while controlling Ghosts, while dodging Storms... in this case, try to lead the way with Vikings and cloak Ghosts while dropping scans. | ||
KingKayzz
33 Posts
On April 07 2014 14:12 dyDrawer wrote: try to lead the way with Vikings and cloak Ghosts while dropping scans. Surprised this hasn't been mentioned more. Harass + ghost micro, I feel, are what make the difference between Plat and Master player. L2Harass = Diamond L2Harass+Lead with ghosts and scans = ezmaster. Find a balance between harass + macro. Here's the PvT opening that finally started winning me TvP games: Here's the playstyle that got me to masters in TvP: ^ That game was from yesterday (as of this writing) but Taeja has used that TvP heavy macro + ghost style since WoL. A couple of things to note: Do NOT listen to the casters, especially in the Taeja game. They'll say he started making ghosts at 170~ cuz he was afraid of not being able to make them later on, or something to that extent - It's completely false. I couldn't give you a detailed reason for why to start ghost production at 170~, because there are many (one obvious one is the high cost of ghosts. By 170 supply your macro should be good enough to be able to pump 5 ghosts at once and not give up any other production). Just know that you will max out before the protoss almost always and you have a 200/200 army capable of ending the game <-- Edit: For clarification, your army is big enough to go toe to toe against the protoss, therefore ending the game. That doesn't mean get 200/200 and go a-move into him. Remember that ghosts are useful against EVERY SINGLE protoss unit, not just templars. I'm a noob, but the way I try to contorl the army is by having my ghosts on 2, everything else on 1. Keep your ghosts at the front and his army scanned. Dude, if you manage to blanket his army with EMPs you won't even need pro level splits, you just A-move his ass with stim! :D | ||
dvb
Czech Republic4 Posts
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