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this is merely something that has been bothering me for a while. In almost every pro game, players do not actively scout the possible hidden expansions that could be on some random corner of the map far away from the spawning locations. In many games, over a 1/3 to 1/2 of the map's bases is completely dark on the minimap by the time a gg occurs, meaning that no units have ever set foot there the whole game.
Now most of the time there isn't a hidden base, but sometimes there is; and one does have quite a high probability in getting away with it at the moment. In sOs vs Jjajki, not seeing the double hidden base practically meant the loss without any engagement, the carriers were a bonus. In Maru vs Dear R16 game 3, maru never sees the hidden base in the corner but trades efficiently enough to get away with it. Dayshi getting away with the hidden 3rd for so long was parts of the reason why grubby lost vs mech for gods sake.
While it isn't always a game ending mistake , i can't count how many times the 5th base near the main on your side of the map was taken in Heavy rain by the opponent and was unscouted for several minutes. Many terrans are guilty of this in tvz and many zergs are guilty of this in swarm host zvp. In either case its not just the extra income for your oponent but its also the misinformation in thinking that your opponent has one less base than they actually have.
Seems like all you need to do is to patrol a unit or two, with a few shift clicks on the minimap but it almost never happens. Sometimes in the very late game a protoss will patrol a DT on the few expansions that are left but it is few and far between.
why is this?
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You're refering to WCSEU games from today.
Hidden bases are rare because they are very, very risky. Players hardly ever scout for them because they know an opponent can't get away with that amount of money away from home, and else, they'll sniff it out. I'm of the opinion commentators give the players not enough credit for when they notice a hidden base is active.
ALSO, might want to warn for spoilers as the broadcast ended less than an hour ago.
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On March 27 2014 08:05 SC2Toastie wrote: You're refering to WCSEU games from today.
Hidden bases are rare because they are very, very risky. Players hardly ever scout for them because they know an opponent can't get away with that amount of money away from home, and else, they'll sniff it out. I'm of the opinion commentators give the players not enough credit for when they notice a hidden base is active.
ALSO, might want to warn for spoilers as the broadcast ended less than an hour ago.
I'm not really asking why people don't take more hidden bases, that is obvious, But the lack of scouting for the possibility of one 4 years into the game is still appalling.
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Those are correlated. It doesn't happen because it is super risky, so why waste time and money on scouting something that isn't there when you'll probably know anyways?
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In TvP it could have the additional benefit in discovering any nasty pylons used to warp in zealots for run-by's. But perhaps at the very top level every tiny little unit counts in the end.
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I think any pro would agree it's a mistake on their part for not accounting for every possibility. They're professionals but still far from perfect play. Centralised focus is rewarded way more in SC2 than complete map awareness is, so I suppose it's never higha priority when they practice.
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i see pros scout for hidden bases fairly regularly, especially on 4player maps. in the IEM game on alterzim where hasuobs(?) kept taking hidden bases against jaedong, he attempted to scout for it a couple of times, going to the wrong base once or twice and then eventually finding it. maybe it's not in every single game, but even the best pros aren't mentally and physically capable of doing everything at once; it's more efficient and productive to focus on playing out a standard game correctly. perhaps it's that commentators don't feel it's necessary to point out when this is happening if there is no hidden base, or that you just aren't picking up on it because it's not the most interesting or important thing going on.
if your logic held up about it being "appalling" to fail to scout hidden bases more often, the best pro players would be doing it, because it would be an important part of the game. isn't the answer kind of built into your question? they don't always do it 100% of the time because it's not the most important thing in the world because it's not that common or effective. professional players tend to give each other the benefit of the doubt that they're probably not going to use crazy gimmicks like hidden bases, and it's not because they're lazy or naive, it's because most pro players have the confidence to win with correct standard play. even still, as i said, pros certainly DO check for hidden bases. it's not something that "never" happens. one additional factor here is that pro players have a better game sense than you or i do, so they're more likely to get a "feeling" for when it's necessary to check around for those bases based on their opponent's army, tech, timings, etc. but again, as always, they are not perfect.
i think you understate the incredible volume of mental activity going on in a pro player's head. when i play on ladder i'm focusing really hard on remembering all the fundamentals of the game and still sometimes making key errors/forgetting major upgrades/etc., and i'm certainly nowhere near pro level. while it may seem obvious to a spectator that you could "just send a unit around to check," that tiny amount of mental focus dedicated toward something with a .01% chance of happening can take away from the execution of the much more important aspects of standard play, such as positioning, engaging, crisis management, macro, etc. plus, at pro level where the players are so good at doing everything accurately and the builds tend to be so similar, the difference in supply made by a couple of dark templar wandering around checking for hidden bases could actually take something meaningful away from their main army.
all that aside, you have a point. it would be nice if pros could manage to do all the little things and still execute perfectly, that should be obvious. but i think you're falling into a trap a lot of spectators do in any sport, including esports, which is to let your observer bias judge too harshly about something that seems simple but is actually a small part of a very complicated process
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On March 27 2014 11:56 Waise wrote: i see pros scout for hidden bases fairly regularly, especially on 4player maps. in the IEM game on alterzim where hasuobs(?) kept taking hidden bases against jaedong, he attempted to scout for it a couple of times, going to the wrong base once or twice and then eventually finding it. maybe it's not in every single game, but even the best pros aren't mentally and physically capable of doing everything at once; it's more efficient and productive to focus on playing out a standard game correctly. perhaps it's that commentators don't feel it's necessary to point out when this is happening if there is no hidden base, or that you just aren't picking up on it because it's not the most interesting or important thing going on.
if your logic held up about it being "appalling" to fail to scout hidden bases more often, the best pro players would be doing it, because it would be an important part of the game. isn't the answer kind of built into your question? they don't always do it 100% of the time because it's not the most important thing in the world because it's not that common or effective. professional players tend to give each other the benefit of the doubt that they're probably not going to use crazy gimmicks like hidden bases, and it's not because they're lazy or naive, it's because most pro players have the confidence to win with correct standard play. even still, as i said, pros certainly DO check for hidden bases. it's not something that "never" happens. one additional factor here is that pro players have a better game sense than you or i do, so they're more likely to get a "feeling" for when it's necessary to check around for those bases based on their opponent's army, tech, timings, etc. but again, as always, they are not perfect.
i think you understate the incredible volume of mental activity going on in a pro player's head. when i play on ladder i'm focusing really hard on remembering all the fundamentals of the game and still sometimes making key errors/forgetting major upgrades/etc., and i'm certainly nowhere near pro level. while it may seem obvious to a spectator that you could "just send a unit around to check," that tiny amount of mental focus dedicated toward something with a .01% chance of happening can take away from the execution of the much more important aspects of standard play, such as positioning, engaging, crisis management, macro, etc. plus, at pro level where the players are so good at doing everything accurately and the builds tend to be so similar, the difference in supply made by a couple of dark templar wandering around checking for hidden bases could actually take something meaningful away from their main army.
all that aside, you have a point. it would be nice if pros could manage to do all the little things and still execute perfectly, that should be obvious. but i think you're falling into a trap a lot of spectators do in any sport, including esports, which is to let your observer bias judge too harshly about something that seems simple but is actually a small part of a very complicated process
As much as I agree with the extremely taxing aspect of the game, I would say one zealot or marine patrolling a few bases on the corner of the map is easy worth the opportunity cost, and only take a few shift click to do. We're talking past the 10 min here, not when ether player has less than a dozen units.
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I think too, that this aspect might be overlooked a bit by the pros. However its worth to notice, that taking a hidden expansion is much less risky when you can dominate in map controll. Basically you have to be very sneaky even with just sending out 1 zealot, it might get taken away, or you can scout something, but can do nothing about it if you are pinned to your base. Just think about how adept a competent zerg can be early game zvp in finding proxy pylons, even with just a few lings... From the games, jjakji vs sOs, sOs was going for mass phoenix in a very large map, and was very active with it the whole game, discouraging any marines to be sent out (well a scan should still have worked, but there is like 6-8 hidden expo locations) plus even if it was scouted, the phoenixes+recal+warpins could have defended it for some time. In yesterdays game with Grubby vs Dayshi the same applied kindof, Dayshi was holding a very strong mapcontroll by mass Hellions. Grubby did send out single units around the map to check things, though i think he was kindof caught off-guard by the strat.
So i think its a bit more tought out most of the time than just a gimmicky and risky trick, that can be easily scouted.
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On March 27 2014 16:07 Senkii wrote: I think too, that this aspect might be overlooked a bit by the pros. However its worth to notice, that taking a hidden expansion is much less risky when you can dominate in map controll. Basically you have to be very sneaky even with just sending out 1 zealot, it might get taken away, or you can scout something, but can do nothing about it if you are pinned to your base. Just think about how adept a competent zerg can be early game zvp in finding proxy pylons, even with just a few lings... From the games, jjakji vs sOs, sOs was going for mass phoenix in a very large map, and was very active with it the whole game, discouraging any marines to be sent out (well a scan should still have worked, but there is like 6-8 hidden expo locations) plus even if it was scouted, the phoenixes+recal+warpins could have defended it for some time. In yesterdays game with Grubby vs Dayshi the same applied kindof, Dayshi was holding a very strong mapcontroll by mass Hellions. Grubby did send out single units around the map to check things, though i think he was kindof caught off-guard by the strat.
So i think its a bit more tought out most of the time than just a gimmicky and risky trick, that can be easily scouted.
Again the focus isn't about the hidden bases that usually don't happen because of obvious reasons but that quite often no units ever venture just to check in case on over 1/3 of the bases for the entire game in most matches.
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I've lost many games because of opponents managing to hide a base to mine out most of it. Nowadays I always have a proxy pylon on the other side of the map and I will always have a zealot patrolling those bases, then I'll replace them with DTs when I have the tech.
I think one of the reasons why pros dont constantly do this is because if you face early aggression, you will need every unit to defend and once the aggression is over, you are too busy rebuilding/counter attacking that you won't even think about sending units to scout those bases.
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You generally can use deductive reasoning to figure out whether an opponent has a hidden base or not. By scouting what you do know it's pretty obvious to figure out if the opponent can actually afford a hidden base.
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On April 04 2014 02:50 Nunchi wrote: You generally can use deductive reasoning to figure out whether an opponent has a hidden base or not. By scouting what you do know it's pretty obvious to figure out if the opponent can actually afford a hidden base.
This. Basically those 400 minerals had to come from somewhere. Generally timings will be way off, army sizes will be a lot smaller, upgrades will be late, etc. All pretty good reason to look for a hidden base.
Playing against hidden bases was my favourite in wc3, a lot of the time the player who hid a base would forget to sell the item from the camp and basically advertise their expo.
edit: this is assuming its a mid-game timed extra base, not like 15-20 min+
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