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-If i don't deflect his 20 possible all ins I'm dead -If i do damage, he will make colossi and a-move across the map and kill me****** (examples provided below) -If i harass successfully and do damage he will start SPAMMING CANNONS to negate drops and then get a late game army and a-move and kill me -If i try to base trade he will just go back home and 1a me to death -If i don't blanket emps I'm simply dead -If i do blanket emps he will still have HT in the back and we'll barely trade evenly and eventually kill me
http://drop.sc/378900 -This game i have 5 bases to 3 and he manages to amove me down to an scv pull twice. http://drop.sc/378901- I kill his nexus, he walks back and lasers my entire base to death http://drop.sc/378902- more lasers killing me
http://drop.sc/378899 - This one's the kicker. He's down an entire 50 supply with 0-0 upgrades vs my 2-1-0 soon to be 2-2-1. I have to pull and lose 30 scvs to hold this off.
Please can someone teach me how to trade evenly vs Protoss? I don't need to trade efficiently, just evenly.
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its commokn knowledge that the terran race has to really punish a protoss to win.
I am in plat, but I will watch these replays, and come up with a way for you to win, and share that with you.
winning in tvp is like winning a late game chess situation .. where your down 2 pawns.. but jts your turn, and you have the ability to force check.
It takes a lot of games to learn when the right moment to force check is , too soon or to late can easily cost some of the best players the game.
however, its always possible , the mothershipcore is not the queen we all think it is, just a bishop tied to what ever square the army or nexus is on.
brb
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On April 18 2014 12:03 Kiaph wrote: its commokn knowledge that the terran race has to really punish a protoss to win.
I am in plat, but I will watch these replays, and come up with a way for you to win, and share that with you.
winning in tvp is like winning a late game chess situation .. where your down 2 pawns.. but jts your turn, and you have the ability to force check.
It takes a lot of games to learn when the right moment to force check is , too soon or to late can easily cost some of the best players the game.
however, its always possible , the mothershipcore is not the queen we all think it is, just a bishop tied to what ever square the army or nexus is on.
brb
Kiaph you were the guy whining how u could beat any diamond/masters player before and Blizzard wouldn't promote you, then I beat you 5 times...
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I simply said that I could beat any masters player, I didn't say that I would do it consistently.
However to use that against a person is just silly, I have 4 pages on your first game to type up after work, I will see you then.
Anyways, after watching the first game I think your overall stragegy of wining, is smart, just out macro the protoss, however ... I will save my breath till I get home for really going in depth, thanks for the replay, i enjoyed watching it.
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I gave a little watch of the "kicker" replay. Granted I'm only a Gold league player I still have ideas. You played well, for sure, but you definitely overproduced on your vikings. He had the 4 colo but then you reset that completely.. You needed maybe half of the vikings you had.
When you were pushing in to snipe his third, you had a drop sitting by his main. He had no units in said main. After a little while of inactivity (microing at the third takes focus) you did finally utilize them to drop. I feel if you had just tabbed away from the fight at the third for a split second to drop those units you could've sniped that main nexus and even some infrastructure, with the attack at the third having an effective result as well simply because he will be scrambling to deal with all of this. You dropped, he ran into main, you ran and then he moved aaall the way back to natural. Poke back in there like 10 sec after he leaves and he has to run aaall the way back again, each time losing more and more of whatever you decide to attack.
As soon as you see he has HT, you need ghosts, that said...You had an excellent blanket of EMP on his army at one point, but sat right in the one storm he had. This is all just my 0.2c however. And again take it with a grain of salt as I am lower league, but hey maybe a different perspective can help to affirm what you already know? I honestly think if you are a little more drop conscious, you will fix your pvt problem. Good replay and good luck!
EDIT:walloftext
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On April 18 2014 12:53 Xation wrote:I gave a little watch of the "kicker" replay. Granted I'm only a Gold league player I still have ideas. You played well, for sure, but you definitely overproduced on your vikings. He had the 4 colo but then you reset that completely.. You needed maybe half of the vikings you had. When you were pushing in to snipe his third, you had a drop sitting by his main. He had no units in said main. After a little while of inactivity (microing at the third takes focus) you did finally utilize them to drop. I feel if you had just tabbed away from the fight at the third for a split second to drop those units you could've sniped that main nexus and even some infrastructure, with the attack at the third having an effective result as well simply because he will be scrambling to deal with all of this. You dropped, he ran into main, you ran and then he moved aaall the way back to natural. Poke back in there like 10 sec after he leaves and he has to run aaall the way back again, each time losing more and more of whatever you decide to attack. As soon as you see he has HT, you need ghosts, that said...You had an excellent blanket of EMP on his army at one point, but sat right in the one storm he had. This is all just my 0.2c however. And again take it with a grain of salt as I am lower league, but hey maybe a different perspective can help to affirm what you already know? I honestly think if you are a little more drop conscious, you will fix your pvt problem. Good replay and good luck! EDIT:walloftext
That's a game I won, the others I lose and badly as well.
Toss had zero upgrades and a completely emped army and STILL managed to trade decently with his colossi....
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On April 18 2014 12:38 Kiaph wrote: I simply said that I could beat any masters player, I didn't say that I would do it consistently.
However to use that against a person is just silly, I have 4 pages on your first game to type up after work, I will see you then.
Anyways, after watching the first game I think your overall stragegy of wining, is smart, just out macro the protoss, however ... I will save my breath till I get home for really going in depth, thanks for the replay, i enjoyed watching it.
In any normal matchup 5 bases > 3 bases, but vs Protoss you never know. They can just kill your ENTIRE army and planetary fortresses and camp your production...
I had to mindgame the living shit out of him, pretend im attacking while actually taking greedy bases, and get up to 5 bases to even have a CHANCE of trading with him...
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I like how the replay names match all the rage in the OP lol
If you read the blink all in discussion thread, there's quite a bit of discussion regarding scouting. It should be really easy to identify a regular msc expansion build. Most good players build their robo somewhere easy to spot too at 5:00. I dare say you're almost always guaranteed to know if they're going robo just be scanning their main - don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you should do that every game, that's just something to keep in mind. If you see nothing, it's probably a stargate or twillight. If you know the most basic msc expand timings, you can rule things out much more easily. What I'm trying to say is, you don't need to scout every corner of the protoss base to rule out a regular build, which is very important to consider, even if you don't know exactly what's going on.
If I were a terran player, I'd probably write a flowchart for that. You should be able to narrow things down quite a bit based on how early the nexus is, how much energy the protoss saved up (and when), the number of geysers and probes on gas, etc.
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On April 18 2014 13:26 vhapter wrote: I like how the replay names match all the rage in the OP lol
If you read the blink all in discussion thread, there's quite a bit of discussion regarding scouting. It should be really easy to identify a regular msc expansion build. Most good players build their robo somewhere easy to spot too at 5:00. I dare say you're almost always guaranteed to know if they're going robo just be scanning their main - don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you should do that every game, that's just something to keep in mind. If you see nothing, it's probably a stargate or twillight. If you know the most basic msc expand timings, you can rule things out much more easily. What I'm trying to say is, you don't need to scout every corner of the protoss base to rule out a regular build, which is very important to consider, even if you don't know exactly what's going on.
If I were a terran player, I'd probably write a flowchart for that. You should be able to narrow things down quite a bit based on how early the nexus is, how much energy the protoss saved up (and when), the number of geysers and probes on gas, etc.
Nonono, the problem is even after I deflect whichever win-condition gimmick toss is trying to use, I then have to deal with a deathball.
And that deathball quite literally steamrolls my army every single game without exception.
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so...u want to know how to beat a deathball? a near 200/200 toss deathball with 6+ colo and ht?
answer: very difficult. even with vikings plus ghost. even korean terrans struggle to do that, how would u think a foreign terran do. thats a reason why the scv pull timing off 3 base to catch colo transition is powerful and overused by them and is relatively successful.
even if u blanket emp toss army, he just has to pull back to recover shield and cover his retreat with storms. if u watch any toss stream like minigun u can see him very defensive with the deathball, using blink stalkers to snipe overextending vikings/medivacs and not overextend himself until he is sure the fight is easily won. any toss with decent micro wont flat out lose to vikings and ghost, its a battle of micro but i would say toss has the upper hand thanks to strong aoe plus warpgate. a single mistake on your part is all the toss need to snowball himself to win.
rather than banging your head again and again against a zealot wall and wiped out to aoe, u need to improve your multitasking and be aggressive. you are terran you are not zerg you cannot just sit back happily on 4/5 base and let toss get a death ball to amove u!
conduct multiprong drops/attacks simultaneously to stretch toss defence thin while having a squad of mmm to check the toss on the frontline (to prevent toss from just amoving to your base for basetrade), polt v P games are good games that showcase this.
if he is being defensive with many ht/stalkers in main, find weak spots in third/natural. or doom drop him with 4 plus medivacs worth of units that just a few stalkers/ht in a main cant stop then use the opportunity to attack his third/natural while hes pulling his entire army back to the main. if you cant just group up your entire army to pressure him and force him to death ball up then do multiprong attacks again. its a dynamic thing but its the general gist of it. its very tough unless u have solid mechanics. and even then u wont guarantee a win especially if the toss defend very well.
i hope you can improve your game, peace.
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Well, I am impressed.
The thing that stands out the most to me is the order in which these games where played.
With every game played, you actually play better than the game before, you are mentally fixing what you did wrong from the last game, and whether or not it has anything to do with how many games you played in between them, luck, time, or you just watching your own replays, what ever it may be, just keep doing it, if its nothing, just keep playing, you will get better.
Next, I had 4 pages, on the first game, that I quickly jotted down and instead of going into detail on just 1 game, I wanted to take game 1, and look similarities in your other games.
First I want to say, you are terran, every time you engage the protoss, you are over committing, so when you attack, attack as if you don't have a plan B, even if you do, forget about it, and focus in on what your about to do.
Set up your attacks.. your good at that, keep it up, follow through with your attacks.. your not so good at that, work on that.
Great example, every game you played you took a super fast third OC.. which is okay.. but you had no real plan, you just got units.. and did stuff with them, and when that didn't work, you built more units and more OC, and that right their.. that is borderline insanity.
+ Show Spoiler +Any given moment the protoss can warp in a wave of units, and just attack into you, accept it, and really commit to your engagements more in the future. Every game you played, you were very hesitant, and your build order reflected it the most.
One game, you went as far as building a bunker after scouting 2 pylons and a very standard time gateway (building a zealot)
Each game, you always, mass expand, now nothing is wrong with that, your macro is amazing, and taking advantage of it .. is very good, but if your plan is to out expand the protoss, and just try to draw his army out of position, normally at the cost of 2 medivacs + 16 supply of Marine/Mara ,and snipe a nexus in exchange. Great play, but make sure that you position yourself to take on his army when it comes barreling down your door.
+ Show Spoiler +The thing is, that is not easy, and the better your opponent gets, the harder doing so becomes, so with that in mind, lets reflect on your build, are their times when you find yourself expanding.. just to expand, just to spend that money?
Can that money be spent better ways, well with the right units, you can begin to really pressure the protoss, you can attack into him, set up your army and harras the dickens out of him, and DARE him to attack into you, because YOU have the army you need need to destroy him, and THEN behind it, you are getting macro.
But, you have manage to pull off wins with this, how could you win, if what you was doing was so "insane."
Well, sometimes you play against other insane people, who just tell themselves, I will get this comp, somehow, someday, then take another base.. eventually, then attack.. and if that doesnt work, take another base and keep on attacking.
Whereas that sounds like the typical protoss .. strategy, it really isn't.
+ Show Spoiler +Protoss want to hit timings, they want to force us terran to over build units, be out of position, forget to make turrets, whatever it may be, normally they have a plan, and when it fails, they go to the next plan. However their plans are typically much stronger, and can be expanded upon with less effort, to better defend against aggression, however when it comes to being out macro'd I think your crazy, the last thing the protoss is concerned about is how many bases you are on, he just wants your attention somewhere besides his army. ( just because his attention is on your bases last, doesn't mean you cant use it against him.. but if your not forcing an all in... that you can defend, or being agressive in such a way the protoss can't risk moving out.. then those extra base means nothing)
So protoss really has a plan, and by getting this macro first, you know give the protoss time, lots of time. However, if you can be agressive, deny the protoss, maintain your composition, and macro behind it, even if it is slower, you begin to put the protoss on a clock.
The protoss can no longer play the game of " I am going to sit here, get the army I want and a move over this chump" not that this is ever the plan, however some protoss really do think like that, and I fond those the ones I can beat, because I know eventually my aggression will result in a base race, or straight up snow balling to a victory.
Instead you sit at home, you are sastified with your extra bases, one game you even scan to see his third, versus scanning to see his army, I want you to think about that for a momement.. does protoss having or not having a third really change what you are about to do.. probably not, but does seeing his army has only 1 colossi or 4 colossi, change what you was about to do.. uh yeah, for sure.
It is so bad, that you actually delay medivacs till almost 12:00 in one of your games, and not only that, your upgrade timing are no where near crisp enough to combat a protoss who gets 2 forges as late as 10:00, your macro is amazing, but it lacks depth, it lacks direction, all it is.. is macro spam.
Then, another game, you get a second starport at like 13:00, amazing read, you saw 1 colossi, you knew the timing of it, and knew he had to commit to colossi in order to secure a third, and if he didnt commit you would be prepared with the medivac count to attack his new third / drop his main base.
instead, you sit at home, and the starport doesn't build a single unit.. till 16:40 in the game.. and then it builds 1 medivac.
The protoss, has 6 colossi, and you have i think 4 vikings and 4 medivacs in the first engagement, you see, because you didn't have a plan, because you was just macroing to macro.. yes you built what you needed, but it wasn't even used!
Later on, you begin to over build the vikings, again more macro spam, I want you to find a way to give your build momentum.. as amazing as watching you get 9 bases up and running on a 2 player map is, nothing would be more amazing to se 7 bases up and running with your army on the other side of the map scans all over the the protoss's army / base and enough medi/vikings to fight / doom drop the moment the opportunity presents itself.
+ Show Spoiler + The way a lot of.. pros play, which you are so capable of playing if you can just find way to use your macro as a weapon instead of just defense. Just imagine you are at his door, you know his composition, and you are able to pull away when you need to, ( say you need more ghost) doom drop if you see him move out, and you just CANT get the army you need, and you have more bases at home so if it comes down to a base race, protoss has to go across the map to your bases which should be up 1 extra base, and destroy everything.. or use his MSC to warp back home (Target dat nexus!) ... if he does warp back in... load up and boast back to your reinforcing army.. that hopefully should know be the composition you needed to maintain your +1 base lead, and a strong presence on your opponents side of the map.
Sometimes you can't stop a 3rd/4rth. But, if you are constantly looking for ways to get into the face of your opponent, eventually he will mess up, his HT will be spread to thin, the storms, will be to late, the colossi count won't cut it, or even better he may have like 6 colossi and nothing but ground army that has to chase your medivacs all over the place, while your vikings look for opportunities to get free shots off.
You build a crap ton of planetery fortress . it is 100% uncalled for, and you probably can watch these replays and see that only in 1 of the 4 games did a protoss even bother killing bases that were not in his way to victory. Heck, sometimes they just went completely unscounted.. the protoss just went for your third/natural/main (most often at this point they just wanted to kill your production)
And thankfully for us terrans.. those targets can lift off and fly away.
+ Show Spoiler +Your closest base should be a planetary, with a turret in the mineral line, 1v1 maps like yeonso maybe your 5th as well, but you should never need more then 2 plantery bases, and these should be taken as key defense locations, not to just protect your macro, you have medivacs flying over the map, marines in key locations, and a good eye to prevent most harass, and if its not just harass, well there is no way in hell your gonna save it, this is even more true if your at your natural , or the tower, or the base X of your opponent, and he attacks your 5/6th base, well what do you know.. poof it's gone.
So really, you play very well.
However, you enter the game with no real plan.
You then continue to execute your build in the same it started, no real plan
You get so good at this, that a protoss who gets thrown off, and doesn't resort back to his initial plan.. or come up with a new one of the fly.. will find themselves trying to to compete against you in your endless macro.. those guys.. lose.
The ones who.. can maintain their cool, see where they are going, and take minimum detours on the path to get their, will still walk right over you.
Get in their way, get in the road, stop building detours.. stop waiting to win, its not going to happen, your macro is to good to just play 25 min games and rage every time you lose.
Know what your fighting against, know what you want to do, and find ways to do it as quickly and effeciently as possible, then if you don't win, expand like a boss, and never let the protoss get a easy win, even if it means a base race, or a HT/Ghost war...the protoss is like deiejorno.. its not delivery.. it's just that freaking good, and you are the pizza boy..I don't care how many pizza you make.. they are never gonna make you any money.. unless you go deliver them :D (to the right spot.. with the right pizza.. and while they are still hot) and if you really good.. you may even get a tip :D
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On April 18 2014 13:29 MrInocence wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2014 13:26 vhapter wrote: I like how the replay names match all the rage in the OP lol
If you read the blink all in discussion thread, there's quite a bit of discussion regarding scouting. It should be really easy to identify a regular msc expansion build. Most good players build their robo somewhere easy to spot too at 5:00. I dare say you're almost always guaranteed to know if they're going robo just be scanning their main - don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you should do that every game, that's just something to keep in mind. If you see nothing, it's probably a stargate or twillight. If you know the most basic msc expand timings, you can rule things out much more easily. What I'm trying to say is, you don't need to scout every corner of the protoss base to rule out a regular build, which is very important to consider, even if you don't know exactly what's going on.
If I were a terran player, I'd probably write a flowchart for that. You should be able to narrow things down quite a bit based on how early the nexus is, how much energy the protoss saved up (and when), the number of geysers and probes on gas, etc. Nonono, the problem is even after I deflect whichever win-condition gimmick toss is trying to use, I then have to deal with a deathball. And that deathball quite literally steamrolls my army every single game without exception.
There's a huge difference between 1 base or 2 base "gimmicks". Also, if you see anything that seems too gas heavy, such as a proxy oracle with 6 probes on gas, I think you should ebay block the protoss because nobody gets a zealot with this kind of build (you need a msc out asap, and just the fact you went double gas delays your zealot quite a bit even if you get it). It's hard to get a zealot with such a gas intensive build. If you force him into 1 basing you, you just need to hold off his push. A very late expension is also terrible for protoss.
You can make it your goal to prevent the protoss from getting a deathball too fast or something. Aim for the robo whenever you can or something. Late game TvP is all about ghost viking control and positioning. In very late game scenarios, consider turtling and getting ghost viking. A regular protoss army just gets obliterated by that composition once you kill obvservers. Most players who can't handle protoss armies in the late game should probably just watch Taeja, his ghost control is impecable.
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God everyone here is discussing your strategy, but noone realize just how irrelevant it all is, when the OP's basic fundamentals need serious work.
I watched the first replay, and there so many things wrong that had NOTHING to do with your strategy. The major flaw in your play, was your macro.
(a) You were unable to spend your money, due to late or insufficient infrastructure. (@ 13:00 you had 1.6k minerals and 600 gas). Instead of having 8 rax and 1-2 starports pumping out units constantly, you only just start adding your 4th, 5th and 6th Barracks; extremely late, which caused your money to climb. You had one base infrastructure with a 3 base economy. As a result of your money climbing, you expand into 4th and 5th bases when haven't properly setup 3 base infrastructure.
(b) You were constantly supply blocked.
(c) You were never really 'saturated' on any of your bases. Maybe for brief moments, but your were either under or over saturated, and you expanded way too quickly. The result being is you had a ludicrous amount of money later on in the game, and no real way to spend it.
Macro is your ability to produce units, and keep all of your production buildings busy. The other element of macro is your ability to expand at the appropriate times to keep your production of units flowing. A good macro player is able to keep increasing his or her production capability while having the resources to support it.
Now I'm going to tell you what to do, and if you hear me out, I promise you, your TvP will be much easier.
Get a build from imbabuilds.com. Practice it over and over against AI until you can do it without thinking. Learn to take your infrastructure at the right time. Don't get supply blocked, properly saturate your bases, and as you take your 3rd base, ensure you get up 8/1/1 infrastructure in preparation for the influx of money.
If you can do all the above, WHILE having ALL of your building producing units WITHOUT QUEUING, you have gold in your hands.
Getting this right is so vital, and needs to be looked at first before you look at anything else.
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In the last replay, you have 0 vikings at the 14 minute mark and he has 4 colos. You need 3-4 vikings per colo so at least 12 of them but you had 0. If you see such fast colos you should add a second starport much earlier, after like 5 rax and make 4 vikings at once. You still survive and get ahead because of eco and upgrades, at one point he is dead but you split up your army so much and try to harass him and lose units. When he is on 2 base and that far behind just take your entire army together and go win, make a big concave, spread units better vs storm and colo, dont fight on a ramp in storms. At the end you had too many vikings vs his 1 colo.
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On April 18 2014 19:38 Dan26 wrote: God everyone here is discussing your strategy, but noone realize just how irrelevant it all is, when the OP's basic fundamentals need serious work.
I watched the first replay, and there so many things wrong that had NOTHING to do with your strategy. The major flaw in your play, was your macro.
(a) You were unable to spend your money, due to late or insufficient infrastructure. (@ 13:00 you had 1.6k minerals and 600 gas). Instead of having 8 rax and 1-2 starports pumping out units constantly, you only just start adding your 4th, 5th and 6th Barracks; extremely late, which caused your money to climb. You had one base infrastructure with a 3 base economy. As a result of your money climbing, you expand into 4th and 5th bases when haven't properly setup 3 base infrastructure.
(b) You were constantly supply blocked.
(c) You were never really 'saturated' on any of your bases. Maybe for brief moments, but your were either under or over saturated, and you expanded way too quickly. The result being is you had a ludicrous amount of money later on in the game, and no real way to spend it.
Macro is your ability to produce units, and keep all of your production buildings busy. The other element of macro is your ability to expand at the appropriate times to keep your production of units flowing. A good macro player is able to keep increasing his or her production capability while having the resources to support it.
Now I'm going to tell you what to do, and if you hear me out, I promise you, your TvP will be much easier.
Get a build from imbabuilds.com. Practice it over and over against AI until you can do it without thinking. Learn to take your infrastructure at the right time. Don't get supply blocked, properly saturate your bases, and as you take your 3rd base, ensure you get up 8/1/1 infrastructure in preparation for the influx of money.
If you can do all the above, WHILE having ALL of your building producing units WITHOUT QUEUING, you have gold in your hands.
Getting this right is so vital, and needs to be looked at first before you look at anything else.
What's the right amount of barracks? I've noticed the pros usually go from 2 -> 3 -> 5 -> 8 -> 11 and sometimes -> 14
Also I watched the replays from the Toss perspective, he can usually cast a few spells and then look away from his main army to macro, or warp in dt/zealots to defend drops and then look away to macro, something I can't really do as terran...
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On April 18 2014 19:38 Dan26 wrote: God everyone here is discussing your strategy, but noone realize just how irrelevant it all is, when the OP's basic fundamentals need serious work.
You're probably right. Since I didn't have time to analyze the replays yesterday, I was just trying to give the op some pointers based on his most general questions. But if his macro is as flawed as you say, he definitely needs to fix it asap.
Game on Frost: 82 scvs! That's way too much. I'm not sure how many scvs is the right amount for terran in the late game, but protoss stays on 66-70 probes and we don't even have mules. If anything, you should consider lowering your scv count.
I see some defensive widow mines serving no purpose. Your army size is too small and in spite of that you're still trying to drop a good chunk of that. You also have very few medivacs, vikings, and ghosts. Instead of dropping with part of your iffy maxed out army, max out with better units, get a good concave, and overpower the protoss. Most people would agree that protoss generally can't engage into a terran army when both players are maxed out with 3-3. But your army composition is really off and not really "maxed out" because you have way too many scvs, so that isn't the case. You need an army that can go toe to toe with the protoss and win games in the late game. You can't complain about colossi, hts, or a death ball if you don't make the right units to deal with that.
Yeonsu: 20:00 downright awful engagement and ghost control. How can you have any doubts why you lost this? Besides, 76 scvs is still overkill, especially considering the economy you had.
Waystation: Your income is too high in the midgame. 89 scvs? No way I'm watching this... the way you're playing, you might as well mass ghost viking behind PFs.
King yada yada: What's up with this strategy where you just poke and lose all your marines? If you just want to force a photon overcharge, don't lose all your units. This game is really funny. You take 3 bases crazy fast as usual and go up to 80 scvs. 80 scvs... seriously? You think scvs are the counter to colossi and ht? I bet you'd be more succesful if you just scv pulled every single game with tons of vikings. If you don't get enough units to engage the protoss, don't expect anything other then getting lasered in a big engagement. You're begging for it.
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On April 18 2014 09:51 MrInocence wrote:-If i don't deflect his 20 possible all ins I'm dead -If i do damage, he will make colossi and a-move across the map and kill me****** (examples provided below) -If i harass successfully and do damage he will start SPAMMING CANNONS to negate drops and then get a late game army and a-move and kill me -If i try to base trade he will just go back home and 1a me to death -If i don't blanket emps I'm simply dead -If i do blanket emps he will still have HT in the back and we'll barely trade evenly and eventually kill me http://drop.sc/378900 -This game i have 5 bases to 3 and he manages to amove me down to an scv pull twice. http://drop.sc/378901- I kill his nexus, he walks back and lasers my entire base to death http://drop.sc/378902- more lasers killing me http://drop.sc/378899 - This one's the kicker. He's down an entire 50 supply with 0-0 upgrades vs my 2-1-0 soon to be 2-2-1. I have to pull and lose 30 scvs to hold this off. Please can someone teach me how to trade evenly vs Protoss? I don't need to trade efficiently, just evenly.
Threads like this need to stop. The points you're complaining about are too general and the thread is too whiny in nature.
Go to the Terran Help Me thread and ask specific questions about the allins you're having issues with. Then work on your macro and your EMPs.
Consider the following things:
1-If he's spending all that money on cannons should you continue to waste money on drops or just make a bigger army and take more bases since cannons can't walk across the map and fight you?
2-You kill his Nexus. How does this improve your army situation? How many units did you lose trying to kill that Nexus? Killing a Nexus is not something that wins games immediately.. it gives you an advantage over time that you leverage to win. If his standing army at that time is much stronger than yours, you could kill all his production buildings and it still wouldn't matter.
3-Other players are winning TvP just fine. So clearly you're doing something wrong. Maybe focus on that rather than whining about how he wins regardless of what you do.
Like it has been said, your macro is not very good. Terran armies with Vikings and Ghosts are very hard to attack into if you are positioned correctly. So engaging efficiently comes down to practice. You practice the Ghost/HT Viking/Colossus "dance" until you get better at it. Then you can win fights.
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I watched the 1st 3 games, the 4th one u wrote like u won this game so I didn't watch.
I'll try to help from my Protoss perspective, my points are common for all the 3 games I watched. Watched all the games from the Protoss perspective, and I thought to myself: Why is your army is always so small?
-Is it the macro? while your macro isn't perfect (few saturation problems, late production, etc) i'll have to disagree here with Dan. the macro isn't the problem here. Every game you heavily outmacroed your opponent and took over half the map while the opponent was struggling to keep the 4th alive. While I do think you had little too many SCV's, I don't think it's the issue here.
-Is it the control? Didn't see any glaring errors in your control, unless it is an all in scenario which non of the games are, a marine here or there won't change the outcome.
-Is it the decision making? Well, you seem to harass, drop, split your army for the sake of harassing, without real target. The 2 main issues here are: 1. You will have to sooner or later face the Protoss army, and you DO NOT want it to be maxed with 5 Colossi and 10 HT when he will be looking for a fight, so you must work towards a finishing blow that will come before that. Look to snipe opponent tech, economy, upgrades and try to strike before he has the chance to rebuild it with a massive army. What happens in your games is that every time the Protoss goes on an attack, 2 thirds of your army is running around fighting cannons, and before that, you just throw bunch of drops which don't even put a dent on his army, which leads me to point number 2. 2. You treat your units as crap. I would hate to be a marine in your army. Treat every drop as a little Sparta squad that will give you profit as long as they alive. Don't throw them all at the meat grinder as soon as you think they served their purpose. The threat of a full double Medivacs that can any second drop you is sometimes stronger than the drop itself. So in conclusion, what happens here is that you work so much on spreading the Protoss thin that you spread yourself thinner, and when the untouched Protoss army finally moves out, a large chunk of your army is out of position and the Protoss can happily march into your production.
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On April 18 2014 09:51 MrInocence wrote:[...] http://drop.sc/378899 - This one's the kicker. He's down an entire 50 supply with 0-0 upgrades vs my 2-1-0 soon to be 2-2-1. I have to pull and lose 30 scvs to hold this off. [...]
This game - even so you won - stands for what's wrong with your TvP: you go in with ur marine squad and you sure do terrible terrible eco damage early on and what do you do? you go up to 4 bases and then almost die to an 2base colossus blink all in because you have only 2 vikings when his attack hits. All your games suffer from a serious lack of scouting or rather reacting to what you see...most likely a combination of both.
edit: also, what everbody else said is right. your eco management is sub par for your lvl. too many scvs, not enough production, repeated supply caps, you bank a lot of resources early on, etc.
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On April 19 2014 03:05 ApocAlypsE007 wrote: While I do think you had little too many SCV's, I don't think it's the issue here. That's an understatement imho. One of the main reasons his maxed out army is innefficient is how much of each unit he has. You talked about important aspects of his play, for sure. But that doesn't change the fact that he has too many scvs, and very few vikings, medivacs, and ghosts. This is probably one of the biggest problems in his macro, besides him going up to 1k minerals with few production facilities and other things along those lines.
Even when he's maxed out, his army blows. No wonder, in 3 out of 4 games he had 80+ scvs. To be precise: 80, 82, and 89 scvs. While I don't play terran, I don't see any reason for him to go over 66 scvs, since he can drop mules at his forth and fifth while transfering scvs when his main runs out. Again, even protoss players stick to 66-70 probes, and we don't have mules. The difference between 66 scvs and 80 scvs is 7 vikings! Even if his spending skill becomes flawless, his economy management will still be off.
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