Hey Guys, as part of my laddergame analysis series (altho this is not a laddergame, rather an unranked game vs an opponent who offraced) I want to present my second video.
This time its all about PvT! This "quick" 26 minute look into what my brain spills out when im fighting against a terran includes:
some tips on how to place your first couple of pylons and buildings to help vs reaperplay as well as 2rax
how to position your army against drops
how to maintain mapcontrol or get a sense of where your opponents army is
reading on early pressure such as stim-timings or dropplay
getting horribly confused by what my opponent was doing
my horrible language with many, many fluffs
btw: I realized he was offracing. Also this game was played in unranked and solely surves the purpose of showing off some tips and tricks in PvT! It was played for this guide and nothing else
Have fun! As always, critique is welcome. Im sorry for the messups and I know its not as good as it could have been. Its quite later here and I just wanted to get it done. I would have thrown it away but i think there's still a couple of points that could help one person or another so I decided to put it up no matter what.
Also, sorry on the camera movement. I really have to work on that, its harder for me than expected.
For the future, I'm also planning to do a video for the very begginers of SC2. I will try to explain the best ways of improving in this game as well as what the best way is to start getting into SC2. I have a lot of experience when it comes to the learning-process in games and especially in this one and I think im fairly qualified to give some tips and tricks on that topic!
Thanks Universum. I choose this opening becuase its pretty much the most standart that you can get nowadays in PvT! There you go: http://www.ggtracker.com/matches/5193382
On July 04 2014 18:16 ShoCkSC2 wrote: Thanks Universum. I choose this opening becuase its pretty much the most standart that you can get nowadays in PvT! There you go: http://www.ggtracker.com/matches/5193382
Yeah it looks like it. I was opening in a very similar fashion but my opening seems slightly off compared to yours and I believe learning yours would fix some of the problems I had with mine Keep up the good work, really awesome video ! I love how you explain your though process so thoroughly. Do you plan on doing one for PvP and PvZ soon ?
EDIT: Actually a watched your PvP video from your Youtube channel ! Great job !
Thanks for video! I often do your build myself, so it helps a lot!
Especially I like your mention about 3rax stim timing, and now I know how to predict that. But I'm still not sure about reaction (which you say like "build gateways Asap").
My question is: (1) How many gateways and when should I start warping in? (2) Does these additional gateways really work against 3rax timing?
Let me explain my first question. Your first observer reaches opponent's base at around 7:30, and at that moment Robotics bay, Twilight council, and 2nd/3rd gateways are already warping in. And lets assume that you scouted 3rax and no factory. How many gateways do you add asap then? I guess I should add 3 more gateways (total 6), at around 8:10. (Instead of 2 cannons and blink research in video) Is this what you meant in your video?
And second question. Even if I get 4th - 6th gateways earlier, the first round of units will warp in around 9:30. (These gateways start warping @8:10, building time 65sec, converting to warpgates takes 10sec, and warp in itself 5sec) But if your opponent is going for 3rax stim timing, he will attack you 30-60sec earlier, I think. If so, what 4th-6th gateways are supposed to do? Personally I would build 2(or even 3) cannons (40sec build time) in front of 2nd nexus in this situation, although I don't like my style because its too passive...
Sorry for my poor English, English is too difficult for me! Thanks again!
Thanks a lot for sharing. This is exactly what I needed. I haven't played since before HoTS and I really have no clue of the current standard game and openings.
@Universum: Thanks a lot man! @Lapack: First, thanks a lot, really appreciate the nice words! As far as your question goes, youre overthinking things a bit! Its way easier actually!
The thing in Hots is, due to the MsC, people tend to delay WG and additonal gateways for quicker tech. This can lead to a problem against certain attacktimings [in this example: the early stim timing].
"our first observer reaches opponent's base at around 7:30, and at that moment Robotics bay, Twilight council, and 2nd/3rd gateways are already warping in" -> I have to correct you on that part (sorry ), it is not possible to warp all of those buildings in at 7.30 already. That implies not cutting probes heavily. If for some reason you see a lack of factory (which is exactly what you see at around ~7.20-7.30ish) you just cut probes and instantly drop the gateways 2 and 3. Normally, you cant drop them as fast and get them around rather 7.45-8ish.
Your next step would really just be to get your first 3 warpins out and thats it really. Photon charge and those units to buffer is easily enough to deal with the stimpush. You just wanna have warpins at around 8.40 (and with warpins i mean units warping in, not gateways to open up !). Im not talking about getting quick 5-6 gateways here.
If you dont feel confident or know your opponent tends to do styles like that just get the robobay then Gateway 2,3 and then the twilight for example. Its a small adjustment but works 100%.
[PkF]Wire: Thank you mate! Heres one for PvP: , PvZ will follow.
@i)awn: Thanks for watching! Great to hear it helps.
On July 05 2014 14:38 ShoCkSC2 wrote: @Universum: Thanks a lot man! @Lapack: First, thanks a lot, really appreciate the nice words! As far as your question goes, youre overthinking things a bit! Its way easier actually!
The thing in Hots is, due to the MsC, people tend to delay WG and additonal gateways for quicker tech. This can lead to a problem against certain attacktimings [in this example: the early stim timing].
"our first observer reaches opponent's base at around 7:30, and at that moment Robotics bay, Twilight council, and 2nd/3rd gateways are already warping in" -> I have to correct you on that part (sorry ), it is not possible to warp all of those buildings in at 7.30 already. That implies not cutting probes heavily. If for some reason you see a lack of factory (which is exactly what you see at around ~7.20-7.30ish) you just cut probes and instantly drop the gateways 2 and 3. Normally, you cant drop them as fast and get them around rather 7.45-8ish.
Your next step would really just be to get your first 3 warpins out and thats it really. Photon charge and those units to buffer is easily enough to deal with the stimpush. You just wanna have warpins at around 8.40 (and with warpins i mean units warping in, not gateways to open up !). Im not talking about getting quick 5-6 gateways here.
If you dont feel confident or know your opponent tends to do styles like that just get the robobay then Gateway 2,3 and then the twilight for example. Its a small adjustment but works 100%.
Hey ShockSC2, I am currently an Austrian Diamond Protoss Player that was Master 2-3 Seasons but stop playing a while. I rly want to get back to mid-high master. And was seeing your 2 Videos here on TL. They are really nice, but many of your decisions on Pylon Placement and mothership core placement against reaper and so on. Are rly map heavy and can change from time to time. For Example on 4vs4 maps with many places where the reaper can come in your base. I rly like to place my MSC at my Mineral Line for a time, to be safe against the reaper.
I rly enjoy your Videos and hope their are more on the way Its really interessting, also if you already know 90% of all of that. Its sooo good for beginners to learn Protoss and understand. Because who wasnt in bronze and lost to proxy factorys or barracks. And with that Pylon in your Base (First Video PvT) you can spot it and have also a chance as a bronze player.
What i rly want to say xD ? GOOD VIDEOS and i cant wait to see more Maybe other Builds different builds and so on.
Thanks a lot Gollomor. Actually, a lot of the things I said can be used on 4Player maps the exact same way. Im not quite sure what exactly you mean that you cant do on a 4player map, maybe give me a hint?
Yes, of course having the MsC above the mineralline is easier to deflect the reaper with, but such you cant zone out the reaper. That means the reaper will get intel of the tech you have anyways
wow very intersting, liked it alot. wish more high level players did this looking at a lot of streamers. most just tend to play the game and dont really explain why they do the things they do.( some do, but not enough) ty again keep it up maybe try and do one for every crazy game/games you lost because its nice to hear high level thought process besides like day9. gj gl keep it up
@Dendra: Thank you. Tho I could have mentioned a lot more. Like where to place Gates and tech to achieve things like hiding it as well as not exposing it to drops and stuff!
@Starslayer: Thank you! I will try to keep them coming!
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I plan on releasing a new guide, I didnt start it yet but the idea is to explain how to approach the game. This can help everyone from starting out to 'Im stuck at X level'! Basically, I want to explain what helped me the most to improve my learning-process.
Thanks dude. Watching right now. I am diamond, and I am crushing zergs hard atm, winning around 60% PvPs, but PvT for the last few seasons has been pathetic on my part. Really low winrates around 35-40%. I need to work on it, and I think I will use this video (and the linked replay), to get better.
I tried your style. Funny enough I got the same map and vs T, the first game I played today. So my mechanics were a bit off, but what do you think in general? (It's a diamond level game)
I missed his initial stim push move-out, which cost me my mama and sentries. Really stupid, but no probes lost as I recall. I lost my 3rd. He moved to my watchtower to clear it and then to my 3rd. I guess I needed my army a bit closer?
After that I did fairly well. Should have had a bit more gates, so the macro slips didn't happen, and a few mistakes in moving probes faster and stuff like that. Maybe a few templars at home for defense. But overall a good start.
Also I forgot wargate. Disregard this, as this never happens. Like once a month or so.
The reason I moved out after he killed my 3rd was because he killed my 3rd. I think armywise I took a better trade, but I was behind in economy. So I feel like I had to do damage.
Just a quick note. I didn't kill his 3rd cc. I killed his building 4th, but he saved the 3rd. Which I was aware of.
The thing where I moved out before storm. Good point. And I needed it in the fight. The main reason I moved a bit, was to get an idea about where his army was. I knew it was out on the map, but I had no vision. Never actually intended to engage. Things just sort of happened.
Thanks for making a video dude. I think the biggest points I will take away from it, is getting gateways on time, twil+blink earlier, and the moveout. Definately helps!
Edit: And of course the positioning. Losing my 3rd could have been avoided. Thanks again!
The reason I moved out after he killed my 3rd was because he killed my 3rd. I think armywise I took a better trade, but I was behind in economy. So I feel like I had to do damage.
Just a quick note. I didn't kill his 3rd cc. I killed his building 4th, but he saved the 3rd. Which I was aware of.
The thing where I moved out before storm. Good point. And I needed it in the fight. The main reason I moved a bit, was to get an idea about where his army was. I knew it was out on the map, but I had no vision. Never actually intended to engage. Things just sort of happened.
Thanks for making a video dude. I think the biggest points I will take away from it, is getting gateways on time, twil+blink earlier, and the moveout. Definately helps!
Edit: And of course the positioning. Losing my 3rd could have been avoided. Thanks again!
1) Moving out isnt the problem here, moving out with barely any anti-air plus neither a MsC is the problem. You are commited vs a more mobile army (as of T)
2) Im not neccessarily talking about "killing the 3rd CC" when im saying "killing the 3rd". What I meant by that is 'shut down' that base, kill workers, keep him from mining there. Sorry
3) You dont want to move your actual army to get information about where his army is (again, commitment is the word, even if its just 100 energy thats still 1 timewarp less or 1 overcharge that you wont have in the fight if you have to troublesome recall). Just get a halluc or send a single zelaot / Stalker (with blink, blink back when you see what you wanted to see)
4) The main points imo would be:
-Properly adding tech (this implies gateways too) in time -Armymovement (know where and when to move), especially be aware of your upgrade-timings and armystrength compared to your opponents. Often times protoss will get their strength from 170 supply up, because they mostly rely on big dmg-dealers (Collossus,Storms) and a lot of buffer for those (chargelots) or supportunits to keep them alive (f.e. Stalkers->shoot vikings/curropters).
Tried playing standard, and I won. 3rd base counter did well, and warpin in the main before main engagement was beautiful if I say so myself.
Then I faced a GM (rank 84)... And tried to 7 gate with fake stargate. He wasn't ready, but he was just better. It's really hard to catch roaches that are being microed back. He really knewn how to buy time. I was a bit nervous, so I could have done better, but I should never win that game TBH.