But this build simply falls short to anything aggressive pre-medivac, because of a lack of defense other than unupgraded gateway units, which don't have a good time vs stimmed BIO.
So I thought long and hard about this, and I realized that Robotics tech IS not capable of defending 3 locations. Colosus are not very good vs drops because you can't split a collosus in half, and collosus find it difficult to be in more then 2 places at once.
Observers are good at defending drops, but drops are not an issue until 10 minutes into the game, (this is the point a drop has the capability to kill a nexus or other necessary buildings).
Thus, I make the claim that either Stargate tech or Twilight council tech are necessary in order to viably take a fast 3 bases.
The question is now to devise a build on how to do so.
My initial thoughts:
1) Mothership core needs to be invested into ASAP (because double Photon Overcharge will be needed to defend), so the build should be a 1 gate expand focused on getting out the MSC first.
** IN addition, if an aggressive timing can come out by being able to use time-warp, that could work as well.
2) The gate expand needs to open with 2 gas in order to get stargate/ twilight tech quickly. I am planning on going for stargate in order to use oracles to pin the terran players back.
3)once the 3 bases are up, I think the defense will have to be a combination of immortals (early robotics tech), and gateway units. Stalker and sentry may cut it if you can throw down excellent force fields.
What do you guys think? I will make a new post detailing a specific build order once I get one down.
Somebody else should correct me, but there are [outdated] builds from Korea dating back to the first Oracle buff (I feel like Dear/Trap/Zest used it, maybe Rain) that went oracle double expand. While these are not viable on the pro scene because ppl are good at deflecting oracle pressure, it's certainly something one could look into at lower leagues.
Perhaps somebody more familiar with the scene knows what games/players I'm talking about and can point this thread in that direction?
Parting used to do it and it was viable for a while to go oracle>fast third>twilight tech, but since the last patch (and even more so after the next one it seems) you are forced into 2base double forge robo colossus because any other build dies to 4m pushes. Even blink builds without detection will be gone.
There are a few problems with triple nexus builds. First of all, you can't deny reaper scouting efficiently, and reaper openings are the most popular. So unless you proxy your nexus on a 4 player map, which means your third won't pay for itself as quickly, you can't reliably deny scouting. You could reactively take a third upon not seeing an early reaper though.
Triple nexus has been done at pro level behind oracle openers a few times. However, you don't have to go stargate. While defending 3 locations isn't very easy at the 10-min mark, map vision can help a lot. 1 scouting observer + 3-4 defensive ones can be really helpful. You want to spot drops going to your main, natural, and third... having a 4th defensive observer helps deny drops at your main on regular maps. Sending a zealot, probe, or building a pylon in locations where you need vision but don't have (or lost) is important too - in the case of triple nexus, it's even more important imo.
Ok, so what else? Third timing... this can vary. If you mothership scout and don't see anything worrying + leave a stalker next to the terran's base for spotting, you can expand off of a robo + 1-2 gates. While most builds nowadays get 3 stalkers out, you can easily get 1 stalker and 1 sentry instead (if you're not up against gas first or something silly like mass reapers) while starting wg asap, which allows you to get a second gateway sooner and warp in 2 stalkers before or after taking a third (i.e. as you see fit, this depends on whether you're getting poked or not). You can obviously stay on 1 gate and making 3 stalkers too, but you can rule out builds that require 3 defensive stalkers by scouting (gas first = barracks finishes at 3 minutes, which is when the factory starts). The reason this is a good idea to consider imo is because while the cost of 1 extra gate + 1 sentry is almost the same as that of 2 stalkers, this is a way to cut corners and get everything else up faster if you don't have to warp in anything. Food for thought. (you could even start a third gateway at about 5:30, but I think that's overkill even for a triple nexus build)
The important part is choosing what kind of tech you want to defend with imo. If you like to go colossi, you can get get a robo bay at about 7:10 for a 9:30 colossus and go up to 7 gates before going double forge + twilight. In other words, if I compare the 7:50 double forge + 9:30 colossus (popping out) build that I used to do to this fast third build, I delay my "least helpful" tech (forges and twilight - thought twilight can help you defend too), in order to get my defensive buildings up earlier - i.e. gates.
I'm not sure how much this will help you do a non-colossus triple nexus build, but you may be able to apply some of these concepts. I've seen some players get several gates + blink for defense. Colossi or templar are delayed, so the protoss player has to rely on sentries and blink stalker micro (several blink stalkers, obviously) to defend for a while.
Btw, CJherO went triple nexus vs Maru recently, if you want to check it out, here it is: He basically did the same thing he usually does, fast colossi + fast twilight before extra gates. What he sometimes does when is go double forge before extra gates, which I believe is a more macro-oriented/reactive move when there's no early marine poke, but in this case, he blindly takes a third instead (I think stayed on 2 stalkers instead of 3 though). I honestly think the early twilight is a bit too greedy, but perhaps ok to do depending on how you optimize your build. Don't read too much into his build after he adds his gates though, because herO saw Maru was going mech after starting gateways 2 and 3.
On July 13 2014 17:58 Teoita wrote: Parting used to do it and it was viable for a while to go oracle>fast third>twilight tech, but since the last patch (and even more so after the next one it seems) you are forced into 2base double forge robo colossus because any other build dies to 4m pushes. Even blink builds without detection will be gone.
This is correct. People like Maru and Bomber were just rofling over people who tried greedy three Nexus builds due to the power of a dedicated 5-rax Bio-Mine parade push. Terran could get a third or not, but it just wasn't pleasant for the Protoss. If you go Twilight tech, you're basically forced to have huge numbers of Gateway units and a few Templar, all of which are just so much food for the Widow Mines. And as Teoita and others have mentioned and you discovered, there's no way to adequately defend 3 quick bases versus Terran drop aggression assuming correct play.
That saddens me. But we saw Sjaak open storm against Ryung in ATC though, if +shields damage is adjusted with the upcoming mine buff maybe one can hope to see templar openings again one day.
On July 14 2014 03:41 [PkF] Wire wrote: That saddens me. But we saw Sjaak open storm against Ryung in ATC though, if +shields damage is adjusted with the upcoming mine buff maybe one can hope to see templar openings again one day.
If the widow mine gets buffed back to its old splash radius, I hope they take away the +damage on shields. Because at this point, it would be like having an extra level of splash ability to kill probes over other units like drones.
On July 15 2014 01:07 Genome852 wrote: How would you defend against the two medivac push if you take a fast third? Unless you just count on not getting scouted....
Get 8-10 gates worth of stuff along with either charge or blink. That really isn't the problem. Saying that you count on not getting scouted is silly because the medivac timing is part of basically every terran build anyway.
On July 15 2014 01:07 Genome852 wrote: How would you defend against the two medivac push if you take a fast third? Unless you just count on not getting scouted....
Photon overcharge + proper unit positioning. You can blindly leave some stuff in your main to deal with drops if you have enough stuff at the front, but map vision can still make a big difference. Like I said previously, you can get 4-5 observers out before your first colossus, unless you take a third before getting a robo, which I wouldn't recommend. If you delay some of your less important tech like forges/twilight (you can't get tech, units for defense, and economy all at once, unless your opponent gets a fast third cc himself), you shouldn't be too short on units.
On July 15 2014 01:07 Genome852 wrote: How would you defend against the two medivac push if you take a fast third? Unless you just count on not getting scouted....
The real kicker isn't the 2 Medivac push, it's the follow-up where you get 4 Medivacs up, and there's 2 groups of two sharking around the perimeter while the reinforcements are rallied near the front and wait to savage whatever area you leave bare in defending the drops. This is why you need basically only Gateway units and Robo stuff to defend, because Templar just are not good enough to deflect everything if the Terran utilizes his mobility edge correctly, and once they've fired off the Feedbacks/Storms, they have to morph into Archons before they become useful again, and if they were the only thing in place, you are in serious trouble.
The most reliable way to get to a fast 3rd base as a protoss is to open oracle and use it to deny scouting and keep terran pinned. From there you go into robo ASAP and get colossus, and delay a storm switch (or else scv pull will kill you). Double forge can be viable as it isn't that much extra gas.
You absolutely have to prevent the terran from seeing the fast third as long as possible however, and that means that the fast third is best used as a reaction for when terran skips the starting reaper. You've also gotta watch out for widow mine drops, etc.
The reason you want to deny scouting is that you want Terran to be planning on a more standard timing, and want to delay him. If he hits an earlier timing sans medivacs with just a bunch of stim bio, you might be in for a world of hurt. It also means he might delay his own CC until a more standard timing as well.
It used to be that players would take a fast 3rd off 1 gateway and then go into a mass gateway with twilight council play, but that's no longer viable due to a lack of detection. Even then it died hard to cloak banshee play, but that was acceptably rare that it was still used. Now, widow mines destroy any such style hard, you cannot play a midgame against a terran without a robo.
On July 15 2014 03:30 Whitewing wrote: The most reliable way to get to a fast 3rd base as a protoss is to open oracle and use it to deny scouting and keep terran pinned. From there you go into robo ASAP and get colossus, and delay a storm switch (or else scv pull will kill you). Double forge can be viable as it isn't that much extra gas.
You absolutely have to prevent the terran from seeing the fast third as long as possible however, and that means that the fast third is best used as a reaction for when terran skips the starting reaper. You've also gotta watch out for widow mine drops, etc.
The reason you want to deny scouting is that you want Terran to be planning on a more standard timing, and want to delay him. If he hits an earlier timing sans medivacs with just a bunch of stim bio, you might be in for a world of hurt. It also means he might delay his own CC until a more standard timing as well.
My issue with oracle is that it leaves you with 150 gas invested into a tech path that cannot defend against marine marauder medivac pressure. The oracle is perfect. It keeps the terran back, and buys a signficant amount of time, enough to essentially garentee that the third base will finish. However, the MSC only has 200 energy. Only 2 locations can be PO at once.
Void ray and Phoenix are both poor choices against MMM. Also, switching tech costs alot of time, and in my experiences testing out Builds, the fastest you can get out collosus while going oracle into third is 11 minutes, a full minute too late to deal with the deadly 10 minute timing.
Currently, I think the best option is to feign gateway aggression into a fast third, kinda like what some players do verse zerg. You open 1 gate fast expand into extra gateways. I currently think that adding on 3 gates is best, (because then you can have 4 gateways which would let you produce 2 archons per cycle), and then you take a third base. After taking the third base, you can immidiately add on ALL the gas guysers while investing in a robo and twilight council, while having the ability to pump out 4 gateway units at time if the terran is pressuring before medivacs.
I believe that you can defend 3 rax of aggression with 4 gateways, provided that you are making things out of them.
Ideally, the setup would be to have zealot charge and 2 archons done at the 10 minute mark so that you can take a manfight engagement, while having 5 stalkers in the main for drops. This means that if you have vision, drops can't enter your main, and there are 2 photon overcharges for the natural and third.
But here is the problem, you can't have zealot charge done AND observers to check for drops. I think that adding a robo+twlight is the better option, so that drops cannot enter your base. If you have 5-6 stalkers, KNOWING where the drop ships are, if the terran tries to drop you, you will snipe off 1 medivac after 1 unit has been unloaded. If it is a double drop, you can snipe off both medivacs with half the units unloaded.
Thusly, I think that relying on 2 photon overcharges during the 10 minute mark can make up for the lack of zealot legs. (you cannot man fight until you have charge). If you defend while taking minimal loses to probes, and archon count, ( I am thinking about making a warp prism JUST for archon micro to save them in a fight, as they will get target fired), I think the protoss will be unbelievably ahead of the terran player.
If you guys are interested in seeing my build, I'll either make a new thread discussing my build, or I will update this threads OP, which ever is preferred; probably update this threads OP, because I feel like I have been spamming the TL forums lately with new threads.
Anybody think that using drops to keep the Terran back is viable to try and get that third base up? I've been trying to add drop play before the colossus tech comes out?
On July 15 2014 04:11 KotaOnCue wrote: Anybody think that using drops to keep the Terran back is viable to try and get that third base up? I've been trying to add drop play before the colossus tech comes out?
It's not reliable. If they are pushing and you drop while taking a fast third, you'll do some damage, but you'll probably fail to hold the push and die while he cleans up your drop with reinforcements.