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Greetings TL. I am JinxStarcraft!
So, through my time, I have seen a lot of complaints about regular ZvZ on Nimbus. The ramps are sorta odd, there's no way to get a spinecrawler to defend your main base, blocking the ramp is kinda awkward, and so on and so forth. Just moments ago Suppy lost to Guitarcheese where he could've held, probably convincingly.
ZvZ being bullshit on Nimbus is nonsense.
Possibly aside from the greediest gasless plays, ZvZ on Nimbus can actually be played pretty normally. You can have queens blocking the ramp, you can have spines in range to help defend the queens. They can still, although barely, for the most part defend the hatchery aswell. All the normal good stuff you'd do to hold an allin in ZvZ is available, and this smart little fact is easily usable in ZvT aswell, vs Hellion plays. (And allowing faster creepspread!) All it takes, is that Zerg expands to the lowground. Nimbus Marked.
With the map offering this specific kind of expansion layout, a lot of other possibilities have been opened. I have toyed with going rather fast roaches and taking the inbase third really quickly. With spines needed only in one spot, there's a huge potential of what you could do on this map if you play smart. I will be attempting to innovate builds for this specific style of play. For now, it is a discussion. Do you think expanding to the lowground is easier to hold than the inbase natural, and what would you suggest as a followup to this play?
With love, JinxStarcraft.
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You can't hold what Guitarcheese did vs. Suppy when you go for what Suppy did.
But according to you, Suppy could have easily held. So why don't you say how?
In my opinion ZvZ is very coinflippy on the new maps.
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I think expanding on the low ground is hard if you re not going for a super aggressive style because the angle of attack on the lower base is extremely wide. You will be overwhelmed by the speedling mobility if you do not go speed/banes yourself.
It s a doable strat to just expand there, make like 3 drones and go onto produce pure lings though. It can help you stabilise for later on, but you still need to be aggressive and I feel it s still a bigger commitment to agression on your part than the inbase expand.
With the inbase expand, you can hold with a spine and queens and some lings but it depends on what your opponent does too
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In my opinion ZvZ is very coinflippy on the new maps. [/QUOTE]
The coinflippiness of mirror matchups is independent of maps.
New and larger maps in zvz generally have the impact on being harder to scout at first. Also, map design encourages certain strategies which are exceedingly strong on some maps and weaker on others. The inability to play "the map" instead of "the matchup" costs you games.
I think its a very good thing that maps create new dynamics. It rewards the strategy aspect and is more entertaining to watch.
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On July 22 2014 14:00 Hunta15 wrote: You can't hold what Guitarcheese did vs. Suppy when you go for what Suppy did.
But according to you, Suppy could have easily held. So why don't you say how?
I did say how. With the way Suppy played, he'd have everything he'd need to defend if he could simply delay Guitarcheese for a little time. If Suppy had taken the lowground expansion, he'd have creep at the ramp with the rocks. His Queens would be there to block in time, so Guitarcheese would find it much harder to get into the mainbase of his opponent, instead of just running in there for free. With a spinecrawler on the lowground defending the hatchery and queens, the amount of units Guitarcheese would have after breaking in would also be lower. In other words, Suppy would've been ten times or more efficient in his defense.
Regardless of how you put it, I do not see the arguement that the lowground expansion should be harder to hold than the inbase expansion.
Edit: Picture to show placement of spinecrawler. A spinecrawler placed like this can reach all the way around the hatchery, and can defend the queens on the ramp. It may even be possible to throw down two spines and add extra queens and take the third inbase hatch while still being gasless. It depends. Usually the issue with taking a third is what makes a heavy spine defense 'terrible' - but on this map a heavy spine defense easily transitions into a third base.
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You cannot have any drones in the low ground hatch with the kind of defense provided by a single spine without any sort of wall. And with enough speedlings (like 12) it gets killed easily. With only 6 lings from your opponent, you ll lose a lot of drones if not all of them. At this point that expo is nothing more than an (exposed) macro hatch
you can hold with the inbase expo by using your second queen to put down a tumor instead of an inject. Then you can re-root your spine closer to the rocks while blocking the ramps with 2 queens. It s a perfectly good defense and is much harder to break.
Expanding gasless in the low ground only relies on your opponent not trying to overhwelm you with speedlings. As you won't be able to mine from that base until you have enough roach/queens out. I think it can work in some situations but the risk is too high for a marginal reward (if any at all).
edit: a smart zerg can also camp on the other side of your hatch and plant a spine of his own there and there s nothing you can do about it
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By the notion of the poster above me, 12-16 speedlings also break down two queens on the ramp. Of course you'll get broken if you're caught with your pants down completely, that goes if you take the inbase hatchery aswell. - Even more so, than if you expanded lowground and blocked the ramp, as the queens would be easier to surround.
I do not agree that 6 lings will pick off drones with a spinecrawler being there, if you have even remotely okay control. I do not agree that taking the inbase expansion and hoping your creep spreads to the ramp before the timings (Which, for the record, it won't for any 14/14 timing.)
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low ground expansion is a lot better at holding 1base allins imo, just tried it on copa america and easily held a 1base bane bust
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On July 23 2014 07:43 coL.hendralisk wrote: low ground expansion is a lot better at holding 1base allins imo, just tried it on copa america and easily held a 1base bane bust
I've always taken that as my 3rd in all matchups, thanks for the advice i'll have to try this now.
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On July 23 2014 11:38 GGzerG wrote: I've always taken that as my 3rd in all matchups, thanks for the advice i'll have to try this now.
You're welcome. I'm still working on new builds to use while playing greedy there. The possibilities are so many. I've had most success with spining up quite heavily and playing 3base Muta/Ling. Its just riddiculus how many mutas you can have out stupidly fast.
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You can hold one base stuff but you cannot hold 2 base ling bane stuff.
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