|
So i just want to now how other players feel after the new patch because i lose like every game (I´m protoss dia rank 3 eu) since the buff against terrans .
I don´t know how to play against it and asked many people what to do but i think now nobody knows how to deal with them .
My biggest problem is that i played always templar openings but since the mine got such good dmg against chargelots i can´t play it and with coloss opening i feel like i can´t expand to 3 base on some maps
i want a discussion people should share their experience with the new mine whatever which matchup
sry for my bad english
|
honestly, PvT shouldnt change to much, Collosus blink is perfectly viable. However, I think that the Shield damage buff should be reverted. Templar openings should be viable again, and they were pre mine nerf. maybe compensate for it in an other way, idk
TvZ, mines, in combination with the hellbats and thors, are pretty strong. dunno, maybe they should revert hellbuff buff or slightly lower the mine damage/radius (just not as much as the original nerf)
overall, the new widow mine is a good change, as it makes TvZ more exciting and requieres more micro and army awarness from the
|
I too share your distress, and sympathize greatly, as a fellow diamond protoss. However, Instead of QQing and calling for a revert to mines, I am currently developing a blink stalker into templar (dark or high) build which gets a blind cannon in the mineral line to punish quick widow mines.
I also agree with Paljas in that the bonus to shields should be reverted. Widow mines currently deal 80 splash damage to protoss units. This is the equivalent of SITTING IN A PSIONIC STORM!!!. Granted, they are not as good as high templar because of the fact that they need to burrow and are kinda random, where as with high templar you can skillfully storm the places you need to.
Blink stalkers are amazing at fighting mines because you can trigger them for free with blink!
Also, Widowmines can't attack buildings, so a cannon is like the perfect defense against them!.
I'll post my build order on the forums after I get a couple of replays.
|
I wish that their bonus against shields was dropped to 30, at least for the primary target, so that a stalker could be sent in to take the hit and survive.
|
The pre-patch widow mine with shield bonus damage already killed templar openings a while ago.
|
Why would both templar and colossus opening be viable, on top of dozen of P's very strong all-inns? Terran has only one tech path in TvP. I understand that you want diversity but the number of options P and T have is already so disproportionate that imho this should come secondary to other concerns.
I don't feel there is anything wrong with the new mines in TvP. I use them early with my bio army even against robo openings and it works ok. In theory they should be immensly helpful in the late game against 30 gateway zealot spam but this is really beyond my ability as I already have enough trouble controlling my bio/medivacs, ghosts and vikings. Adding additional hotkey for mines simply wouldn't work for me lol.
I have not played enough ZvTs yet but judging by the games I watched the new mines seem very strong now, maybe a bit too strong. I would love to see someone trying out the thing that Polt was doing before the mine buff, which basically was making 4-6 of them at a time.
|
Protoss is used to OP and rule Terran race pre-patch, learn to deal with new Terran pls
|
On August 08 2014 12:15 well-rounded-comrade wrote: Why would both templar and colossus opening be viable, on top of dozen of P's very strong all-inns? Terran has only one tech path in TvP. I understand that you want diversity but the number of options P and T have is already so disproportionate that imho this should come secondary to other concerns.
I don't feel there is anything wrong with the new mines in TvP. I use them early with my bio army even against robo openings and it works ok. In theory they should be immensly helpful in the late game against 30 gateway zealot spam but this is really beyond my ability as I already have enough trouble controlling my bio/medivacs, ghosts and vikings. Adding additional hotkey for mines simply wouldn't work for me lol.
I have not played enough ZvTs yet but judging by the games I watched the new mines seem very strong now, maybe a bit too strong. I would love to see someone trying out the thing that Polt was doing before the mine buff, which basically was making 4-6 of them at a time.
Because collossus openings are boring as shit? If only 1 of the two macro pvt openings were viable, I would definitely prefer templar openers (allows more micro from both sides etc.).
I'm no expert, but I honestly think that the mine buff vs shields could be reduced just slightly so that templar openers are not completely shut down. More diversity is generally good imo.
Just my two cents though ^.^
|
On August 08 2014 12:59 OhDearGod wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 12:15 well-rounded-comrade wrote: Why would both templar and colossus opening be viable, on top of dozen of P's very strong all-inns? Terran has only one tech path in TvP. I understand that you want diversity but the number of options P and T have is already so disproportionate that imho this should come secondary to other concerns.
I don't feel there is anything wrong with the new mines in TvP. I use them early with my bio army even against robo openings and it works ok. In theory they should be immensly helpful in the late game against 30 gateway zealot spam but this is really beyond my ability as I already have enough trouble controlling my bio/medivacs, ghosts and vikings. Adding additional hotkey for mines simply wouldn't work for me lol.
I have not played enough ZvTs yet but judging by the games I watched the new mines seem very strong now, maybe a bit too strong. I would love to see someone trying out the thing that Polt was doing before the mine buff, which basically was making 4-6 of them at a time. Because collossus openings are boring as shit? If only 1 of the two macro pvt openings were viable, I would definitely prefer templar openers (allows more micro from both sides etc.). I'm no expert, but I honestly think that the mine buff vs shields could be reduced just slightly so that templar openers are not completely shut down. More diversity is generally good imo. Just my two cents though ^.^ agreed, templar openers are neither a sneaky all-in nor are they stronger than blink colossus nor do they require a huge defensive overcommitment by terran so i dont see what the problem is unless you just blindly hate anything protoss. if you ask me templar openers are the kind of diversity protoss needs
|
On August 08 2014 12:45 Taefox wrote: Protoss is used to OP and rule Terran race pre-patch, learn to deal with new Terran pls
We are trying!!! So far my answer is to all in.
|
On August 08 2014 16:01 AkashSky wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 12:45 Taefox wrote: Protoss is used to OP and rule Terran race pre-patch, learn to deal with new Terran pls We are trying!!! So far my answer is to all in.
Good to see you've been adapting so quickly
|
On August 08 2014 16:49 Creager wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 16:01 AkashSky wrote:On August 08 2014 12:45 Taefox wrote: Protoss is used to OP and rule Terran race pre-patch, learn to deal with new Terran pls We are trying!!! So far my answer is to all in. Good to see you've been adapting so quickly I rofled at this. honestly colossus openings are quite dull, but i suppose we'll have to adapt
|
On August 08 2014 12:15 well-rounded-comrade wrote: Why would both templar and colossus opening be viable, on top of dozen of P's very strong all-inns? Terran has only one tech path in TvP. I understand that you want diversity but the number of options P and T have is already so disproportionate that imho this should come secondary to other concerns.
Sure, but if you remove macro builds, don't cry that more Protoss do all-ins.
The right way to "fix" it IMO is to keep templars openings viable, while nerfing some of the all-ins.
|
First of all i´m a Zerg player, but i have to defend the Terrans here i feel. Because of the tank hardcounter Immortal, Terrans do not have any AOE that works against mass zealot besides Wm so i think they need them. Correct me if i´m wrong, but what other unit could work against mass 3/3 Zealots, Hellbats? i don´t think so, thy die too fast against archons for example.
|
ironically enough, at least in tvp, a good use of the widow mine is to not use it at all.
Let me explain:
The threat of widow mines makes colossus macro play very predictable and templar styles as well as all ins very weak: Therefore you can just not invest into them and start to hard counter colossus compositions with lets say 3 rax factory 2 SP and setting up a an SCV pull.
other ways to try to counter the colossus composition from the get-go is to
a) invest in 1 early ebay for a 2/1 and +1 for vikings leading into an scv pull b) go cc first into a quick 3rd again leading up to an SCV pull c) skipping reapers
SCV pulls are still very strong vs Colossus play. They are a very secure way to end the game once the Protoss has taken damage or will allow you to all in for the comeback if you as a terran took damage.
|
On August 11 2014 23:14 Mojito99 wrote: ironically enough, at least in tvp, a good use of the widow mine is to not use it at all.
Let me explain:
The threat of widow mines makes colossus macro play very predictable and templar styles as well as all ins very weak: Therefore you can just not invest into them and start to hard counter colossus compositions with lets say 3 rax factory 2 SP and setting up a an SCV pull.
other ways to try to counter the colossus composition from the get-go is to
a) invest in 1 early ebay for a 2/1 and +1 for vikings leading into an scv pull b) go cc first into a quick 3rd again leading up to an SCV pull c) skipping reapers
SCV pulls are still very strong vs Colossus play. They are a very secure way to end the game once the Protoss has taken damage or will allow you to all in for the comeback if you as a terran took damage.
Yes. My god this so many times yes. As a protoss, every game I have to prepare for widow mines early game. Can't see terran main base because supply depot block off? Prepare for WM. See 3 workers in gas after reaper has been built? Prepare for WM. Denied scouting by marines? Prepare for WM.
Half the time they don't go for it, and then its straight up 2 medivacs -> 2 viking -> 4 viking -> 2 star at a 9:30-10:30 timing. I can do so little to stay alive its so frustrating. I’ve been a ‘macro protoss’ forever now (as in most of my games go 15-20 + minutes vs T, Z). But now I’ve resorted to using all-ins. Immortal all in. Blink stalker all in. Two collosus all in.
I’m don’t think the game is unbalanced, I just think I haven’t figured out how exactly to get blink collosus to work for me all the time where the terran already knows pretty much my army composition without even scouting it.
|
I can't assist much with build orders as I am a Terran, but I can tell you that as soon as I see the Protoss making colossi, I stop making mines. How and when you get to Colossus tech is up to you. I know in KR, the current meta is to get them out as quickly as possible.
Also, I am not convinced that Templar-first isn't viable anymore. Yes, the mines do well against zealots, but to be honest, I think Protosses simply haven't learned to deal with mines yet. Zergs were getting slaughtered for a while until they started sending individual lings or even overlords ahead of the army to trigger minefields. Theoretically, this should be even easier for a Protoss to do since Zealots are much tankier than Zerglings and take longer for the Terran to snipe (thus preventing the mine from being triggered).
TL;DR
1) Get to Colossus quickly 2) Stick with Templar first if that's your style, but be extra attentive in microing your army. If you can neutralize the Terran's mines, either by triggering friendly fire or sacrificing individual Zealots, you will be able to crush the bio army with your Templar just as you did before the patch.
|
United States7483 Posts
On August 12 2014 04:06 DoD_SymphoniC wrote: I can't assist much with build orders as I am a Terran, but I can tell you that as soon as I see the Protoss making colossi, I stop making mines. How and when you get to Colossus tech is up to you. I know in KR, the current meta is to get them out as quickly as possible.
Also, I am not convinced that Templar-first isn't viable anymore. Yes, the mines do well against zealots, but to be honest, I think Protosses simply haven't learned to deal with mines yet. Zergs were getting slaughtered for a while until they started sending individual lings or even overlords ahead of the army to trigger minefields. Theoretically, this should be even easier for a Protoss to do since Zealots are much tankier than Zerglings and take longer for the Terran to snipe (thus preventing the mine from being triggered).
TL;DR
1) Get to Colossus quickly 2) Stick with Templar first if that's your style, but be extra attentive in microing your army. If you can neutralize the Terran's mines, either by triggering friendly fire or sacrificing individual Zealots, you will be able to crush the bio army with your Templar just as you did before the patch.
A mine trading against 1 ling is bad for terran. A mine trading against one zealot is good for terran. You can't win this way as toss. Templar/zealot against bio/mine is a losing proposition because you just keep losing small groups of units as terran kites in and out without ever being able to take a decisive engagement. Protoss doesn't have the economy zerg has, or efficient units to sacrifice to mines, nor do they have the production speed to make enough stuff even with losing small groups of units. It doesn't work.
By the time you have the tech and ranged units out to deal with the mines without losing units, terran is so far ahead in supply he can just spread his units then A-move you.
|
On August 12 2014 04:06 DoD_SymphoniC wrote: I can't assist much with build orders as I am a Terran, but I can tell you that as soon as I see the Protoss making colossi, I stop making mines. How and when you get to Colossus tech is up to you. I know in KR, the current meta is to get them out as quickly as possible.
Also, I am not convinced that Templar-first isn't viable anymore. Yes, the mines do well against zealots, but to be honest, I think Protosses simply haven't learned to deal with mines yet. Zergs were getting slaughtered for a while until they started sending individual lings or even overlords ahead of the army to trigger minefields. Theoretically, this should be even easier for a Protoss to do since Zealots are much tankier than Zerglings and take longer for the Terran to snipe (thus preventing the mine from being triggered).
TL;DR
1) Get to Colossus quickly 2) Stick with Templar first if that's your style, but be extra attentive in microing your army. If you can neutralize the Terran's mines, either by triggering friendly fire or sacrificing individual Zealots, you will be able to crush the bio army with your Templar just as you did before the patch.
I agree with your colossus point, so I’ll just address the templar-first opening point.
1) People have talked about the cost inefficiency of having a zealot trigger a mine. 2) There is also the speed of the zealot that we have to consider. If lings catch the edge of a mine, lings are actually fast enough to split, run away and only lose one. Zealots on the other hard, are slowpokes. This means if I see a random widow mine laying around, even if I have HerO micro, I won’t be able to split zealots that move at like 2 mph. And what about charge? Once a zealot starts charging, they are guaranteed to hit. But if I charge into a field of mines, well.. I lose all micro possibility here. 4) Catching and seeing mines. This is a little more greedy, but why do I have to invest in a whole tech path to counter something Terran can get along their way to any tech path? Compare this to cloak banshees for a second. If I scout cloak banshees, I have no problem committing to a Robo because I know the terran will be committing to some extra tech as well. Now a days, if I see a factory, I pretty much have to commit 200/150 for a robo + 25/75 for an obs due to the fear of the sheer damage output of the WM. See how that isn’t conducive to templar play at all? back when WM was weaker, I could technically just tank the damage and move on, which sitting on cannons and what not. But now it’s just like, well there goes 3-4 zealots.
|
On August 12 2014 04:37 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2014 04:06 DoD_SymphoniC wrote: I can't assist much with build orders as I am a Terran, but I can tell you that as soon as I see the Protoss making colossi, I stop making mines. How and when you get to Colossus tech is up to you. I know in KR, the current meta is to get them out as quickly as possible.
Also, I am not convinced that Templar-first isn't viable anymore. Yes, the mines do well against zealots, but to be honest, I think Protosses simply haven't learned to deal with mines yet. Zergs were getting slaughtered for a while until they started sending individual lings or even overlords ahead of the army to trigger minefields. Theoretically, this should be even easier for a Protoss to do since Zealots are much tankier than Zerglings and take longer for the Terran to snipe (thus preventing the mine from being triggered).
TL;DR
1) Get to Colossus quickly 2) Stick with Templar first if that's your style, but be extra attentive in microing your army. If you can neutralize the Terran's mines, either by triggering friendly fire or sacrificing individual Zealots, you will be able to crush the bio army with your Templar just as you did before the patch. A mine trading against 1 ling is bad for terran. A mine trading against one zealot is good for terran. You can't win this way as toss. Templar/zealot against bio/mine is a losing proposition because you just keep losing small groups of units as terran kites in and out without ever being able to take a decisive engagement. Protoss doesn't have the economy zerg has, or efficient units to sacrifice to mines, nor do they have the production speed to make enough stuff even with losing small groups of units. It doesn't work. By the time you have the tech and ranged units out to deal with the mines without losing units, terran is so far ahead in supply he can just spread his units then A-move you.
Once terran actually figures out how to execute the SCV pulls better (yes i believe there is still lots of room for improvement) and in general figure out how to engage mass colossus as well as starting to hard counter colossus compositions from the get go - i believe templar will become popular again and someone will show how to split vs mines. Also Colossus fake without lance into 12 min storm or so is going to become more popular.
This will most likely only become an issue at the top of the skill ladder because random protoss x on the ladder will just try to all in you as terran. But once you are up vs the best terrans (with the exception of Innovation who has proven multiple times that he is borderline retarded when it comes to holding Protoss all ins) the new mines simply discourage all in builds significantly if you risk loosing 1/4 of your force to a single mine. - keep in mind that all ins usually need to go through the natural and up a chokepoint and ramp.
|
|
|
|