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Im only diamond but i havnt lost a single zvz with this build that ive been using i would put up benchmarks if i now that its viable at a masters level. the highlights are standard opening into speedling bane into +1 ranged +1 carapace. then +2 ranged, +1 melee. then +2 melee and +2 carapace. constant pressure with roaches and small groups of lings with tunneling claws. Once you see hydras on the field get baneling speed and trade some roaches (usually maxed by that point). make 20 supply of lings and turn them all in to banelings move around with you roach army lure his army out try to avoid overlords and position your roaches in a decent concave and hit from the side with banelings. works against mass roach if you can hit them while stacked but is hard. i can post some replays of my games against high diamond players i just need to know of a reliable replay website. the best thing ive found with this build is that the melee upgrades make ling runbys stronger and can transition into ultras or brood with strong upgrades.
True infestors counter roach bane but using roach runbys to pull the army out of position and baneling bust the third since roach infestor needs alot of gas to make effective.
If your opponent transitions into roach hydra before your +2 melee has finished this build still works really well against since the remax is going to be roaches.
Let me know if you want benchmarks or replays and please criticize it if you want and give me tips ive been using it to great success with a 100% winrate in zvz without a single all in.
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post the build order in the first place.
about the replays, create an account in drop.sc
finally, idk, its so hard to make that work, banelings are a bad idea already because if your opponent splits, your build is fucked up, not to mention the transition to SH, and the forest of spine crawlers that follows them, making your runbys increasingly weaker. Plus if your opponent has a brain, either he will make some festors and wreck your banes (you cant split them like hydras). And if you opponent goes for mutas, you are dead.
If you want advanced feedback, upload your replays and post the build order.
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http://drop.sc/385116 thanks for that i will post the BO once i get a chance. i found that even with splits this build still wrecks roach hydra cause of the upgrades. idk about pre splitting but no one has seen the banelings till they are rolling across the map. also ive only versed sh once and i flanked the sh with the banes and small group of roaches and won the game with that one move but i guess the point is ive only versed low masters with this build so far. against infestors i always change to comp im using this isnt a kill your enemy build its a counter build
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i like the idea, you don't differ too much from the standard meta and i'm sure it holds up to standard play. however, i don't think you can always go this route. in my opinion it's a strong reaction when you scout the hydra den, or if he teches too fast to sh/infestors.
if he just stays on roaches and keeps trading you will probably end up very behind after a few engagements, seeing as one of those engagements probably hits while you are vulnerable while you are researching melee upgrades and banelingspeed. roach+bane just doesn't trade efficiently against pure roach. it can win engagements, sure, but those are not in your favor unless he has hydras.
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Italy12246 Posts
Please tag your threads. Also in the future it'd be nice if you could format your OP's better, as is it's really hard to get an idea of what your build is supposed to accomplish.
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On August 21 2014 19:28 Crypdos wrote: i like the idea, you don't differ too much from the standard meta and i'm sure it holds up to standard play. however, i don't think you can always go this route. in my opinion it's a strong reaction when you scout the hydra den, or if he teches too fast to sh/infestors.
if he just stays on roaches and keeps trading you will probably end up very behind after a few engagements, seeing as one of those engagements probably hits while you are vulnerable while you are researching melee upgrades and banelingspeed. roach+bane just doesn't trade efficiently against pure roach. it can win engagements, sure, but those are not in your favor unless he has hydras.
pretty much agree with this, frankly the OP's build isn't even so much a build as it is a general outline for reacting to hydralisks in zvz and some very generic ideas about army movement and harassment. using multitasking, harassment, army movement, etc. is all good but if you're relying on that to hold your style up then what happens when you run into a player who just defends very well, macros up and comes at you with a shitload of 2/2 roach? what happens when you play someone who doesn't let you run all your banelings into a huge clump of roaches?
OP - you say in the title that this is "anti mass roach" but i strongly strongly disagree with that, i fail to understand how this counters straightforward standard macro roach play. as for hydras, to be quite honest, i think transitioning into midgame hydras is a pretty weak style and in the vast majority of games i play against players who go for early hydra tech i'm able to roll over them with mass roach just by making sure i get a decent angle and i'm able to shoot the hydras. i'm not saying speed banes don't counter hydras in some circumstances, but i've never felt the need to do it unless i fall behind in some way/take a bad engagement and end up losing in macro with pure roach vs roach/hydra. or if it's a map with narrow alleyways like foxtrot where it's harder to get a good spread then i can see it being a good option
i don't disbelieve that you can win games with this style, but if i can be quite honest it sounds kind of like it's your own personal style and preferred way of playing and you're trying to justify why it's strong or superior, and i don't really think it is. it just seems like an ok/workable way of playing zvz, but there's not anything here i would want to emulate other than some good general ideas that most zerg players at this level should be familiar with
edit: also, i kind of rolled my eyes at "100% winrate in zvz." if you were winning 100% of your macro zvzs then you wouldn't be in diamond, if you're a diamond level player and you're really doing that well in zvz then sooner or later you'll start running into master players who beat you by having better mechanics and you will no longer have a 100% winrate. and if that doesn't happen and your mechanics rival master players, then you should be in master :p just a pet peeve but i hate it when people say "oh i'm winning 34928389% of my games in this matchup with my sick new style!"
hope this doesnt come off like im shooting you down or trashing your style, but if youre going to post a thread about your style i think there should really be something solid about it to learn or copy, and im just not seeing too much of that... at best its a cool idea for players who want to switch up their zvz experience and move away from mass roach
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A couple of things:
1 - I am surprised nobody mentioned that a style like this has already been used in Premiere tournaments. I forget whether it was an IEM or Dreamhack but Jaedong copied the style after he saw a game of Snute's (I believe), and both of them won easily after they made their baneling wave and attacked. Although, I am not sure if they won because of the composition or if it was one of those "I'm ahead and this will win me the game" type of things. I have a tendency to believe that if it was truly more stable, it would be seen more often other than a couple games at a foreign tournaments where the better player probably won those games anyway. Still though, there's a lot of stuff in ZvZ that I am confident is viable and would be good if people took the time to study it, but they don't bother because every top player plays Roach ZvZ right now. Muta Baneling into accelerated tech battles is a good example of a style that I'm sure is quite good but oddly never used.
2 - Part of this seems like a pretty obvious type of circular counter in ZvZ, wherein Hydras tend to beat Infestors, Banelings beat Hydras and Infestors beat Banelings. I thought this type of knowledge was pretty common as far as mix-ins in late-game ZvZ armies before they evolve into Hive and late game stuff. The reason Banelings aren't seen as often is because blindly teching into Infestors tends to be pretty stable, and it's the hardest of the counters listed above.
I guess the only other comment I can make is that Banelings are pretty damn supply efficient, so if both players are in a max vs max scenario and you can squeeze in Banelings against a pure Roach composition, then it should win.
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On August 25 2014 12:18 Magnet wrote: A couple of things:
1 - I am surprised nobody mentioned that a style like this has already been used in Premiere tournaments. I forget whether it was an IEM or Dreamhack but Jaedong copied the style after he saw a game of Snute's (I believe), and both of them won easily after they made their baneling wave and attacked. Although, I am not sure if they won because of the composition or if it was one of those "I'm ahead and this will win me the game" type of things. I have a tendency to believe that if it was truly more stable, it would be seen more often other than a couple games at a foreign tournaments where the better player probably won those games anyway. Still though, there's a lot of stuff in ZvZ that I am confident is viable and would be good if people took the time to study it, but they don't bother because every top player plays Roach ZvZ right now. Muta Baneling into accelerated tech battles is a good example of a style that I'm sure is quite good but oddly never used.
2 - Part of this seems like a pretty obvious type of circular counter in ZvZ, wherein Hydras tend to beat Infestors, Banelings beat Hydras and Infestors beat Banelings. I thought this type of knowledge was pretty common as far as mix-ins in late-game ZvZ armies before they evolve into Hive and late game stuff. The reason Banelings aren't seen as often is because blindly teching into Infestors tends to be pretty stable, and it's the hardest of the counters listed above.
I guess the only other comment I can make is that Banelings are pretty damn supply efficient, so if both players are in a max vs max scenario and you can squeeze in Banelings against a pure Roach composition, then it should win. thank you i will put aside some time tomorrow to put down a BO for this. ive been using this build for about 2-3 years. i may not be the first to theory craft a build and used this one in particular but the damage banelings do with +2 damage against roaches is surprisingly high.
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