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+ Show Spoiler +In Ro16 of GSL today, Flash refused to use widow mines against muta/ling/bane composition in this matches against Soo and DRG, with the exception of match 2 against DRG. Against Soo, almost every engagement Flash took against Soo resulted in Flash losing, except for the last engagement in game 2. I can't count how many engagements Flash came out behind against Soo's and DRG's muta/ling/bane composition
At IEM Toronto, Taeja mentioned how TvsZ favors T right now. Of course, Taeja does use widow mines (WM) against muta/ling/bane when going bio (he was using it against Solar at IEM Shenzhen when WMs were weaker) . However, other pro Terran players don't use widow mines against muta/ling/bane when going bio.
I understand that WMs may do friendly damage to a Terran's army. But after the WM buff, doesn't using WMs outweigh the drawbacks of not using them?
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avoid unpredictable damage during a fight as the outcomes from (that) fight. I very appreciate it, I hate wm (as terran unit) with passion.
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Flash chooses to make Thors instead of WMs. It seems to be his special style. He can use the Thors for anti-muta and also for a baneling shield like maruders. The Thors also have a nice ranged damage output in general. It's pretty smart. Flash had a good chance to advance today, but he shot himself in the foot with that CC on the low ground in a must-win game. He took a gamble and got build order countered. That kind of sucks.
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Mines are volatile and less mobile. Flash plays a very movement based style. Look at ithe positioning and amount of moving his army does, check the minimap out, for example. It requires him to be able to respond fast to a flank/counter, which mines suck at because they need to be spread ans burrowed ahead of time. He needs that because he uses the army so aggressively.
Also, volatility is bad in units you rely on. Hellbats are more stable that way.
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Tbh, in games vs Soo, flash lost due to not making any tanks. Banelings were like waaaaaaaay to effective vs him. 3 tanks into compossition he has and that games would have probably ended differently.
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On September 05 2014 22:12 SatedSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2014 22:07 xelnaga_empire wrote:+ Show Spoiler +In Ro16 of GSL today, Flash refused to use widow mines against muta/ling/bane composition in this matches against Soo and DRG, with the exception of match 2 against DRG At IEM Toronto, Taeja mentioned how TvsZ favors T right now. Of course, Taeja does use widow mines (WM) against muta/ling/bane when going bio (he was using it against Solar at IEM Shenzhen when WMs were weaker) . However, other pro Terran players don't use widow mines against muta/ling/bane when going bio. I understand that WMs may do friendly damage to a Terran's army. But after the WM buff, doesn't using WMs outweigh the drawbacks of not using them? I think it's a preference thing. Given that people who don't use Mines tend to use Thor/Hellbat instead, here are some reasons that come to mind wrt. Hellbat vs. Widow Mine: Hellbats also provide splash damage. Hellbat splash damage is reliable/predictable and doesn't friendly fire. Hellbats can tank for Marines against Banelings in a similar way to Marauders. Hellbats don't have to be burrowed before being useful. Hellbats fire more than once during an engagement. Hellbats can be healed by Medivacs.
Hellbats cost no gas.
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On September 05 2014 22:21 Salient wrote: Flash chooses to make Thors instead of WMs. It seems to be his special style. He can use the Thors for anti-muta and also for a baneling shield like maruders. The Thors also have a nice ranged damage output in general. It's pretty smart. [REDACTED] Cool spoiler bro. Even has the "today" admission.
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Hellbats also take more banelings. I think that is the most important thing here. If the zerg rolls in, some mines dont even trigger because the die so fast to the splash dmg.
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On September 05 2014 23:25 SatedSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2014 23:20 Saechiis wrote:On September 05 2014 22:12 SatedSC2 wrote:On September 05 2014 22:07 xelnaga_empire wrote:+ Show Spoiler +In Ro16 of GSL today, Flash refused to use widow mines against muta/ling/bane composition in this matches against Soo and DRG, with the exception of match 2 against DRG At IEM Toronto, Taeja mentioned how TvsZ favors T right now. Of course, Taeja does use widow mines (WM) against muta/ling/bane when going bio (he was using it against Solar at IEM Shenzhen when WMs were weaker) . However, other pro Terran players don't use widow mines against muta/ling/bane when going bio. I understand that WMs may do friendly damage to a Terran's army. But after the WM buff, doesn't using WMs outweigh the drawbacks of not using them? I think it's a preference thing. Given that people who don't use Mines tend to use Thor/Hellbat instead, here are some reasons that come to mind wrt. Hellbat vs. Widow Mine: Hellbats also provide splash damage. Hellbat splash damage is reliable/predictable and doesn't friendly fire. Hellbats can tank for Marines against Banelings in a similar way to Marauders. Hellbats don't have to be burrowed before being useful. Hellbats fire more than once during an engagement. Hellbats can be healed by Medivacs. Hellbats cost no gas. I don't think that is a factor. If you don't go for Mines then you need Thors to deal splash-damage to the Mutalisks, and Thors obviously do cost gas... right?
Quite a bit easier to get a quick second factory for Thors when you're not spending gas on mines.
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They do. Flash is the only one who doesn't play them. All other Terrans—Bbyong, Bogus, Bomber, Cure, Heart, jjakji, Maru, MMA, Polt, TaeJa, TY, YoDa...—use Mines.
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I know that there are some Terrans that use them, but I feel like along with some other reasons that people have said so far, that WM require a lot of baby sitting when trying to position into taking good engagements vs muta/line/bane. Maybe its just me, but unless they are babysat well and a good amount of micro is focused on them, the detonations will be almost useless against a Zerg that knows they are there. Perhaps the potential damage inflicted doesn't always seem to outweigh the micro and attention required to control them, so many Terrans might not choose that path.
While I am not a high level player in any regard, when I lose vs Zerg, I sometimes get asked by said opponent, "why no mines?" Since my micro skills and control are no where good enough to babysit mines while microing and splitting bio (arguably more important), I feel like WM lose most of their potential damage, due to detonating on the first few lings instead of having a chance to hit most of the Zerg army
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Many many top koreans like maru do use mines, certainly more than use hellbats. I just think this question was on your mind because flash didn't use then. The obvious advantages of hellbats are that they are easier to use, waste banelings with their high hp and cheap cost, can be healed, don't have any friendly fire, and are easier to use than mines. The big disadvantage of hellbats is that they can't kill mutas, don't require detection, and they can't get random ranged hits on clumped banelings that might not go near hellbats.
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Top terrans DO use mines, it's just flash prefers the bio/hellbat thor style. And to be honest, i think the the hellbat style is inferior for the most part, we sure flash be in pretty decent positions in many of the games and still get destroyed constantly in engagements because he struggled to deal with the high baneling count.
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On September 06 2014 01:02 TheDwf wrote: They do. Flash is the only one who doesn't play them. All other Terrans—Bbyong, Bogus, Bomber, Cure, Heart, jjakji, Maru, MMA, Polt, TaeJa, TY, YoDa...—use Mines.
While Dwfs post stays true, i would like to add that as a tterran player there are a couple of reasons NOT to get the mines too early on.
1. mines are very luck based in small numbers. 2. they are not part of the standart Terran early game (hellions are tho) 3. they actually need to be protected and are more of an defensive anchor to your force, rather then offensive tools 4. The current metas tendency to lean towards roaches does not encourage mine production at all 5. you need a techlabbed factory to get the mine upgrade which means you can´t get it early on. 6. unupgraded hellbats are stronger then unupgraded mines.
Still, after youu got your second factory established and start pumping 3 upgraded mines at a time vs a muta ling bane player, they are prettey amaazing.
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+ Show Spoiler +On September 05 2014 23:25 SatedSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2014 23:20 Saechiis wrote:On September 05 2014 22:12 SatedSC2 wrote:On September 05 2014 22:07 xelnaga_empire wrote:+ Show Spoiler +In Ro16 of GSL today, Flash refused to use widow mines against muta/ling/bane composition in this matches against Soo and DRG, with the exception of match 2 against DRG At IEM Toronto, Taeja mentioned how TvsZ favors T right now. Of course, Taeja does use widow mines (WM) against muta/ling/bane when going bio (he was using it against Solar at IEM Shenzhen when WMs were weaker) . However, other pro Terran players don't use widow mines against muta/ling/bane when going bio. I understand that WMs may do friendly damage to a Terran's army. But after the WM buff, doesn't using WMs outweigh the drawbacks of not using them? I think it's a preference thing. Given that people who don't use Mines tend to use Thor/Hellbat instead, here are some reasons that come to mind wrt. Hellbat vs. Widow Mine: Hellbats also provide splash damage. Hellbat splash damage is reliable/predictable and doesn't friendly fire. Hellbats can tank for Marines against Banelings in a similar way to Marauders. Hellbats don't have to be burrowed before being useful. Hellbats fire more than once during an engagement. Hellbats can be healed by Medivacs. Hellbats cost no gas. I don't think that is a factor. If you don't go for Mines then you need Thors to deal splash-damage to the Mutalisks, and Thors obviously do cost gas... right? Honestly once a non meching terran reaches three bases in tvz gas is often a non factor Terran can collect way more gas then they will ever need for their army so having a gas cost on a unit is a plus. I bet it would almost be a buff to mines if they cost 50 mins 50 gas rather than 75-25. Therefore the fact that hellbats eat more into Terran's mineral economy is actually a draw back Terran would usually much prefer gas over mineral sink support units when going bio but the hellbats utility justifies its use by some players like Flash for aforementioned reasons.
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Okay isn't it just a question of style?
On one hand Flash seems to prefer big badass timings : usually +1/+1/shield/+1mech attack first and then another one when he hits +2/+2 and blue flame. That's two big push he makes after having usually tried to cripple the economy on a 1-1-1 opening. (thinking about his games agains snute at IEM and his code S against DRG/soO)
On the other hand widow mine users harass a bit and then, once +1/+1 hits, go for a constant pressure with units constantly streaming across the map, gaining ground inch by inch thx to the mines, until ultimately the zerg's reprod is no longer big enough to contain them.
Mines don't fit too much in Flash "timing based" style, and hellbats/thor don't fit the "constant flow of units" style much either...
Last, let's not forget that Flash kinda reluctantly switched to bio, as he had been going for mech for a long time until he finally changed. So that's maybe just him building his own style without caring about if the other terran use WM or not
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After watching Innovation's series today against DRG, I think not using mines against muta/ling/bane is inefficient, especially after the WM buff. Innovation's trades were efficient time and time again against DRG.
Just my opinion, but I think Flash needs to change his style against Z if he wants to be successful. I could understand Flash's style pre-WM buff, but post WM buff, it's far more efficient to use WMs against muta/ling/bane.
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On the other hand, there were quite a few times where the mines didn't do a lot in the fights. I feel that DRG's macro slipped a few times, leading to the overrun by Innovation.
DRG also used single mutas to bait out the mines before he engaged. It was a pretty cool technique.
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