I'm not certain where to post this question, of if it's even an acceptable question on the TL forums, so I'm starting here.
tldr: What are some suggestions and best practices for returning to SC2 after an extended absence?
Longer Version:
I played the first few seasons of Wings, and consistently placed in Plat, but didn't put in the time to push beyond that. HotS' release coincided with an extended crunch at work, and I never really returned to the game. That puts me about 2 years out of practice. With Void on the horizon, I want to get back into ladder play, but the overall skill level of the playerbase feels like it's increased to a rather intimidating degree.
The clean slate does have the advantage of completely forgotten keybinds, build orders, and muscle memory. I'd like advice on how to approach relearning the game, the keybinds, and the meta in a way that'll let me transition into Void without too much unlearning of HotS in the process.
Welcome back. I'll chip in with pointing you in the direction of a good keybinding system. Now would be the time to (re)learn before you get set in your ways;
I feel I can be the most usefull by pointing this out:
Just reading your few lines, I felt you have expectations of climbing the ladder back up quicly.
For the good of your project, I suggest you set realistic goals and expectations.
- What good really is being plat 2 years ago ? Judging just from that, you must know that making a big army, taking bases and scouting can carry you to silver trough macro only. Should you expect more ? You know more than I do: I incite you to keep it realisitic.
- I second the invitation to use core lite. There is not a single player that would not have prefered to take the time to learn it at their very begining.
I'm in the same situation, gone for 1.5 years due to dead computer. used to be diamond, now consistently losing to silver. It's important not to care about losses or ranking, just get your fundamentals taken care of first. Focus on your pylons and probes (or whatevs). Once you have that down, pick one build per matchup and master that build, and you'll be in a good position to regain your previous skill.
I appreciate the feedback so far. It sounds like two votes for The Core Lite, so I'll take a look at it. Similarly, I've already started reading through the Zerg strategy threads to see where the meta is at the moment.
I recognize the wisdom in the common answer of "Go Ladder", along with the caution regarding expectations. My Plat rating was a long grind from low Bronze, so I'm expecting a slow journey from the bottom again, with no idea where I'll cap out this time. We'll see where I am when it happens.
While I intend to be patient regarding progress, I was curious if there was feedback from more experienced players on techniques that might improve the efficiency of my progress. Things that they wished they'd known when they first started, that would have wasted less time on dead-end learning curves. This time around, I won't have 20+ hours a week to throw at the game, so I want to make the most of the time I have to give.
On November 15 2014 03:03 Cheshyr wrote: I'm not certain where to post this question, of if it's even an acceptable question on the TL forums, so I'm starting here.
tldr: What are some suggestions and best practices for returning to SC2 after an extended absence?
Longer Version:
I played the first few seasons of Wings, and consistently placed in Plat, but didn't put in the time to push beyond that. HotS' release coincided with an extended crunch at work, and I never really returned to the game. That puts me about 2 years out of practice. With Void on the horizon, I want to get back into ladder play, but the overall skill level of the playerbase feels like it's increased to a rather intimidating degree.
The clean slate does have the advantage of completely forgotten keybinds, build orders, and muscle memory. I'd like advice on how to approach relearning the game, the keybinds, and the meta in a way that'll let me transition into Void without too much unlearning of HotS in the process.
Thanks for your thoughts.
You are absolutely right about the overall skill level. A casual Masters player warped back in time to early 2013 would have a pretty good chance of winning the GSL. But what evolved most here isnt the individual mechanical skill but rather the average players game knowledge. So even if your mechanics arent all that bad you will still have to figure out the meta, which, considering the #dreampool and all the oldschool builds it resurfaces, is quite a buttload of Information. So your prime Goals for improving should be to eliminate all the possible variating reactions as best as you can. That means, you focus on 1 build per matchup, best something that is HYPER agressive because it requires less game knowledge, or something that is so safe and stable that you never have to adapt your play anyway. A good example would be the infamous 8/8/8 in TvT which can be found here: 8/8/8 or the good old 11 11 rax in TvZ. In any case, your chances of winning increase significantly if you manage to catch people outside of the usual meta so that your inexperience becomes a less dominant factor. Learn your race. You have to know the general timings of how your builds work so that you can reproduce them even if the game diverts away from standart play; i´m talking about things like the reactor factory swap for Terrans, or the half way lair Roachwarren for Zerg, Depot pylon overlord timings. Just general rules of thumb that you can apply in every game really, discover tthe juicy timings! Learn about general strategy. This includes : Where to attack when to attack and WHY to attack or how does Army movement work etc etc.
Check out this thread if you want to learn how to prioritise the efforts put into the various aspects of skill: The Pyramid
and last but not least: Hotkeys are not important, choose what you are comfortable with.
On November 15 2014 07:57 Cheshyr wrote: I was curious if there was feedback from more experienced players on techniques that might improve the efficiency of my progress. Things that they wished they'd known when they first started, that would have wasted less time on dead-end learning curves. This time around, I won't have 20+ hours a week to throw at the game, so I want to make the most of the time I have to give.
I wanted to go ahead and throw out there that I created a tool called Benchmarker specifically to solve this exact problem. It's designed to maximize the time you have to dedicate to practice, while at the same time making warm-up for ladder games more engaging. I haven't had a chance to update it to the current map pool yet, but that should be coming in the next couple of weeks. Please take a look and let me know what you think.
On November 15 2014 03:03 Cheshyr wrote: I'm not certain where to post this question, of if it's even an acceptable question on the TL forums, so I'm starting here.
tldr: What are some suggestions and best practices for returning to SC2 after an extended absence?
Longer Version:
I played the first few seasons of Wings, and consistently placed in Plat, but didn't put in the time to push beyond that. HotS' release coincided with an extended crunch at work, and I never really returned to the game. That puts me about 2 years out of practice. With Void on the horizon, I want to get back into ladder play, but the overall skill level of the playerbase feels like it's increased to a rather intimidating degree.
The clean slate does have the advantage of completely forgotten keybinds, build orders, and muscle memory. I'd like advice on how to approach relearning the game, the keybinds, and the meta in a way that'll let me transition into Void without too much unlearning of HotS in the process.
Thanks for your thoughts.
You are absolutely right about the overall skill level. A casual Masters player warped back in time to early 2013 would have a pretty good chance of winning the GSL.
I'd like to say thanks to OP for putting my thoughts into the words. I am pretty sure there are some other who would like to return with LotV approaching. Thanks for valuable comments.
There's two bosses in Starcraft as far as I am concerned, one is MC (of course) And the other I doubt anyone would guess for my pick, but goes to the guy who made the second of the two VODs in the post above: FilterSC.
Seriously, if you're new to SC, returning, or even in the higher leagues and hit a bit of a brick wall with advancing further, you need to check out his VODs on YouTube.
Specifically thinking of the low leagues when I say this; but a lot of the VODs out there from known faces are great, no question, anyone who puts time and effort into helping others, getting more people involved in this awesome game, I take my hat off to you. Good stuff. The thing is, they don't really approach things from the new players perspective. I watched Apollo's Terran beginers VOD the other day, and the thing is he relies (as one would) On his great knowledge of the game to build the units, position units etc, to hard counter what their opponent is doing. But when you are new to SC, you simply do not have this knowledge.
You or I might wander into a Protoss' base for an early scout, see a lack of tech, 6 probes on gas, and instantly think 'proxy oracle maybe DT', so we can take the steps to deal with this. But as a new player you just do not have that knowledge, period. You only have to watch Husky's Bronze League Heroes And see the number of times new or lower ranked players scout, but don't really see anything.
For this reason I really can not recommend FilterSC's VODs highly enough. He points out that really for new players scouting is not needed, sure go check their base early to make sure you're not about to get a proxy two rax rammed down your throat, but beyond that forget it. The far more important thing is to get your macro under control, specifically SCV / probe / drone production, and get the production facilities you need to move into mid-game on a very strong economical and production footing. A new player trying to micro a reaper or lings in their opponents base is going to let their macro slip massively.
Forget going to IMBAbuilds or similar as a new player, learning cheese builds might get you out of the lower leagues, but it's not going to teach you the fundamentally most important aspects of SC; strong macro (specifically SCV etc production) and having the production facilities you need, when you need it, without floating 1k minerals or gas needlessly.
FilterSC is a boss. So glad he never left SC permanently. So sad I didn't find his stuff a lot sooner.
I'm having the same problem; I have no idea where to start. I made it to master league playing Protoss in WoL, and stopped playing only to come back a few days ago. I'm doing very poorly; I was placed in Gold, which I don't mind, but it shows how far my skills have decayed.
I can't macro to save my life, I float a lot of money, and I have no idea what unit compositions I should be aiming for in any of the matchup. Can anyone maybe help me out and tell me what the "most standard", solid, macro-oriented build is for each Protoss matchup? If I could just practice one build for each matchup that was exemplary of really solid play, I'm sure my macro would eventually come back, as I've only played like a dozen games or so since getting HotS. Thanks!
On November 29 2014 09:27 Lateral wrote:I can't macro to save my life, I float a lot of money, and I have no idea what unit compositions I should be aiming for in any of the matchup. Can anyone maybe help me out and tell me what the "most standard", solid, macro-oriented build is for each Protoss matchup? If I could just practice one build for each matchup that was exemplary of really solid play, I'm sure my macro would eventually come back, as I've only played like a dozen games or so since getting HotS. Thanks!
I was in the same boat. I literally just focused on one opening (1-gate expo into robo, located in the OP of The Protoss Help thread) for both PvT and PvZ, and using PvP as my "try new things" matchup. What I've found is my early/mid-game scouting is actually now better than it was before my hiatus because I'm completely comfortable in my opening and have attention to spare for what my opponent is doing. As a result I am almost back up to Plat (my pre-hiatus rank), up from Silver just 2 weeks ago.
As for which builds are right for you, I guess that depends on your playstyle. I prefer more macro-oriented play, butif you like all-ins, find one that suits you and just master that one build. Once you're no longer focusing on "omg is my build order correct??", the rest of the game comes back to you much easier.
Yeah, I definitely know what you mean. I'm lost in PvP, though. I'm squeaking wins out, but it never feels solid and I always feel like I'm winning because my opponent messed up.
I started just doing two of my old 2 base builds in PvT and PvZ, an 8 gate and an Immortal/sentry/warp prism, and I think I'm just going to let those carry me up the ladder until people start stopping them, but I have no such build for PvP to ease me back into the game and just re-train me to spend money and build pylons. When I originally learned, I 1 based everyone, then once I had that figured out and could keep my resources low and people started defending, I'd start 2 basing, then once I could manage a 2 base econ I'd go to 3, until eventually I was playing macro games. But I had the 4 Gate for PvP way back then, and now I don't really have a simple build I can use to just beat the plat players I'm playing and work on keeping my resources low.
How do I even open in PvP these days? What are the main options? I remember you used to do a 3 stalker rush to prevent 4 Gate, and then it went into a sort of counter-triangle, something like twilight > phoenix > robo > twilight, with some expand builds that could work vs defensive robo builds or something, but now with the MSC (and oracles) I just have no idea.
in literally all 3 matchups you can open blink and choose to either allin with it or continue on to macro/robo play
in pvz you have to go forge and a bunch of sentries first but otherwise yeah if you just want to practice mechanics in mid leagues i don't see any reason you can't go blink all day every day
I'm in a similar situation as the OP: I went on hiatus right before HotS came out because of persistently bad internet service, but I picked up HotS when it went on sale a couple of days ago and now that I have better internet and can play without fear of lag/drops, I'm back here. I actually wanted to post a thread asking for tips too but I was worried it wasn't worthy of a thread.
I left off from plat as well, but I expected myself to suck after the hiatus so I dropped all my placement matches. I still landed in Silver somehow.
For a whole night I was just trucked, frequently by units which I forgot were a thing.
My "muscle memory" has mostly recovered, but my build orders are still fuck all. I use a modified version of/a cross between TheCore Lite and Chameleon (I was worried I would lose my hotkeys and other savedata because I uninstalled the game, but thank god for online profile saves), and I have to say, it feels really natural and was a breeze to relearn. I recommend using an alternate hotkey setup.
On November 15 2014 03:03 Cheshyr wrote: I'm not certain where to post this question, of if it's even an acceptable question on the TL forums, so I'm starting here.
tldr: What are some suggestions and best practices for returning to SC2 after an extended absence?
Longer Version:
I played the first few seasons of Wings, and consistently placed in Plat, but didn't put in the time to push beyond that. HotS' release coincided with an extended crunch at work, and I never really returned to the game. That puts me about 2 years out of practice. With Void on the horizon, I want to get back into ladder play, but the overall skill level of the playerbase feels like it's increased to a rather intimidating degree.
The clean slate does have the advantage of completely forgotten keybinds, build orders, and muscle memory. I'd like advice on how to approach relearning the game, the keybinds, and the meta in a way that'll let me transition into Void without too much unlearning of HotS in the process.
Thanks for your thoughts.
You are absolutely right about the overall skill level. A casual Masters player warped back in time to early 2013 would have a pretty good chance of winning the GSL.
no they wouldnt lol they would never even qualify
Yeah this is a huge exaggeration. I think I'm going to understate the skill creep and guess the difference between early 2013 and now is actually something like jumping from Silver to Plat, or Casual Masters to low-GM.
I give a few games, after the first won game I placed gold and won the other 2. I was gold in WoL and kinda surprising to see old master players , dropped to silver. Will not gave up this time
I think it's important to go with a real hot key setup like The Core. I'm starting over after about 9 months as well. Having a clean slate is actually awesome. If you put in a little time, I think you'll be way better off. I've just been practicing builds/hot keys/controlling units in test maps and it comes back fast.
I'm coming back from roughly may 2012, diamond/masters Random player (depends how often I got to play my good matchups, aka PvP) . It's definitely rough. I tried using the Core and the Core light but it was just completely ridiculous and I couldn't even play, even after trying it for about 10 games. I at least switched from the Grid to the standard hotkeys and basically have to play Protoss as my Terran went from bad to abysmal, I continue to forget about new Zerg tech and PvP is still a free win for me.
Seems like there is a definite skill creep as gold league players did not play like this when I was playing good lord. On my trek up from Silver to Masters back in the day, people in gold were still bad, REALLY bad. Like idle workers, supply blocks every minute and a half, 40 APM, rushes that were 2 minutes too late, no scouting besides first workers into base, no base defenses, complete absence of multi tasking. Now I see some actually decent players who scout properly, can defend against things like Muta/Warp Prism harass, kill expansions and hit strong timings.
Is it just smurfs? Most of the really good players seem to not be in leagues when I lose to them, the guys with like 180 APM and fantastic macro based on the replays.
I guess I'm super out of the loop with things like build orders, army compositions and my macro is certainly rusty but after about 30 games of still in gold league (mostly against platinum players now, hopefully making that jump) people are clearly better than they used to be. I can't just 3 base colossus a+move to victory anymore. The only good thing I have going for me is that the map pool isn't far off from where I left it.
Who is the best protoss player nowadays so I can get some inspiration?
Seems like there is a definite skill creep as gold league players did not play like this when I was playing good lord. On my trek up from Silver to Masters back in the day, people in gold were still bad, REALLY bad. Like idle workers, supply blocks every minute and a half, 40 APM, rushes that were 2 minutes too late, no scouting besides first workers into base, no base defenses, complete absence of multi tasking. Now I see some actually decent players who scout properly, can defend against things like Muta/Warp Prism harass, kill expansions and hit strong timings.
Is it just smurfs? Most of the really good players seem to not be in leagues when I lose to them, the guys with like 180 APM and fantastic macro based on the replays.
What you're experiencing is ladder deflation caused by over-aggressive MMR decay. Right now there are tons of 8-10x master leaguers stuck in platinum and diamond league who cat get promoted even with ridiculously high win rates. After a while; this causes gold league to fill up with all the legitimate plat and diamond players who keep getting stomped by those former masters.
It was much worse this time last year before Blizzard re-drew the MMR boundaries for league distribution. 70+% of all players had been pushed down to bronze and silver leagues, and good league was full of former diamonds and low masters.
ExcaliburZ had a great thread on ladder deflation and MMR decay last year with all sorts of graphs and statistical analyses.
I'm also recently returning and hyping for LotV, but my question is, is it really worth it to learn The Core or Fleet Keys? No offense to the creators but as far as I know, they haven't even broken diamond. So how can they know how it's a good and efficent hotkey system. I remember trying to learn the core once and it was a major pain in the ass, but it would be interesting to see some input from high rated players about these custom made hotkey setups.
Regardless of whether you feel The Core is right for you, I heavily advocate the training method (with a few caveats) known as The Staircase. The program is based around getting your fingers into the game first, and mastering macro before worrying about micro or high-maintenance units like spellcasters. With this idea in mind, and the wonderful resource of www.ggtracker.com, it becomes very easy to tell when your macro is up to snuff. Then it becomes a matter of simply adding in new functions and units while making sure you keep that macro at every step. In my opinion, the benefits of this training method, whether followed strictly or more in spirit, are threefold.
1. It separates "playing well" from winning. The most discouraging thing for any player trying to improve, whether new, returning, or veteran, is a losing streak that seems to stem from just being outclassed. It is very easy for that losing streak, which will almost certainly happen if you are out of practice, to scare the returning player away, and keep them from getting back in shape at all. This avoids that by providing clear benchmarks for macro and economy.
For me at least, there is something incredibly heartening in being utterly destroyed, uploading the game to ggtracker, and seeing that I spent like a master-level player. It also makes it easier to focus the game around fun. It is very hard to beat yourself up over a loss when that loss consisted of you going 12 gate mass zealot in PvT.
2. It makes the job of figuring out why you lost much simpler. Starcraft is a complicated game. The number of factors involved in "who is ahead" at any point is incredibly complicated, and that can also lead to the horrible "why did I lose" discouragement. This training method avoids that by providing fewer things to analyze at the beginning, and making every aspect of the game ultra-clear. Even those dedicated to the"play game, watch replay, repeat" method of improvement should find this more effective. GGTracker offers about a dozen graphs of analysis for any game, letting you isolate exactly what it was that made you lose.
3. It provides a natural way for your fingers to remember the way the game works. It allows (in fact, requires) you to play ladder games, but is much easier and more helpful than just hitting the "find match" button on day 1.
In conclusion, I hope that this long rant convinces at least one person to try The Staircase, or to sign up at GGTracker.com. GGTracker especially is an incredible resource that they could easily charge money for, but they do not. It is a tool that players at every level can benefit from using.
On December 22 2014 11:10 Daimai wrote: I'm also recently returning and hyping for LotV, but my question is, is it really worth it to learn The Core or Fleet Keys? No offense to the creators but as far as I know, they haven't even broken diamond. So how can they know how it's a good and efficent hotkey system. I remember trying to learn the core once and it was a major pain in the ass, but it would be interesting to see some input from high rated players about these custom made hotkey setups.
I'm in a similar situation as yours, i was diamond in wol (z and t) with pretty solid play, then started recently hots (as t) and it felt like learning the game all over again. I would say don't focus much on pro hotkey setups but instead try and practice your core mechanics like macro/micro and understanding the meta and what kills you early. I now take it less seriously (easier said than done) and happy to be climbing gold league with a few games, even if i get supply blocked like 4-5 minutes each game i still have a better macro than a gold player who's blocked for 1 minute and with micro i tend to win unfavourable engagements. What gets me is that i'm not used anymore to check constantly the supply and the minimap, something you should keep in mind as they are absolute essentials to get higher than gold. My DT nightmares are also back