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I am a Diamond Protoss player and lately I have been hitting a wall when it comes to improvement, and looking at my replays it seems my macro is quite weak relative to my opponents (most noticeable in pvp with the amount of probes we end up with, less so in the army department although still noticeable).
So, after a 9 game lose streak today I have decided to come to you for your tips and advice on improving in the probes and pylon's category.
So far I am working on improving my memorisation of my build orders but I find that after the first 5-6 mins or so my macro slips dramatically (chiefly probe/pylon production).
What are the things you have done/are doing to improve your macro?
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There's a Trap fanclub? thing is, your basic mechanics are more important than some fancy build order. what helps me is schemes, like warp-in -> probes; chronoing upgrade -> probes; building immortal -> probes; building pylon -> probes. i found a guide (kind of) image that made a hierarchical order of things you need to learn in starcraft 2, producing probes and not getting supply blocked is far more important than perfectly executing a build. as long aas you know when your gate/core/robo should start, you're ok. for a good friend of mine that was in the same slump, training with a coach (he had german protoss showtime) helped. also, don't go to hard into starcraft 2, i guess after 5 losses, a small walk outside is a better training than continuing.
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On December 28 2014 20:22 Motlu wrote: I am a Diamond Protoss player and lately I have been hitting a wall when it comes to improvement, and looking at my replays it seems my macro is quite weak relative to my opponents (most noticeable in pvp with the amount of probes we end up with, less so in the army department although still noticeable).
So, after a 9 game lose streak today I have decided to come to you for your tips and advice on improving in the probes and pylon's category.
So far I am working on improving my memorisation of my build orders but I find that after the first 5-6 mins or so my macro slips dramatically (chiefly probe/pylon production).
What are the things you have done/are doing to improve your macro?
Practice, practice, practice... and more practice. Practice your builds against easy AI and pretend your playing a real opponent. This will reinforce your ability to not only execute a build, but to multitask while you macro to a 3rd base.
For example, I'm a Terran, and when I practice my TvT build, I pretend I'm playing against a real opponent. So I scout like I normally would and then I would pretend I scouted gas first with my scv so I adapt my build to get ravens/tanks/vikings as though I'm playing against aggressive banshee play. I then transition into normal macro play and aim to not get supply blocked and constantly build workers.
You just gotta train. Next time you ladder, just say to yourself "My goal this ladder session is to not get supply blocked and have non-stop worker production." So if in a game you are defending aggression and are under heavy pressure, your brain has premeditated to ensure you don't get supply blocked and keep up your probe production. Meanwhile your opponent has slipped up in this very area trying to do damage to you, you end up winning in the mid-game because you had better macro.
Focus on one area at a time. That's how I do it.
*Edit* - Oh yea one more thing: After you've done some training; you need to have a large gaming session to really nail in that macro. When you have the time, just dedicate to 20-50 ladder games in one go (with short breaks for water of course). E.g.
Goal:- Don't get supply blocked, constantly build workers: - Play 30 ladder games in one session no matter what. - Focus on just this one area - If you still lose achieving solid macro, note why. (this will give you other areas to focus on later, in a similar fashion)
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I agree with everything said in the post above by Dan26 with one caveat. Don't practice your builds against the AI.
I am a Diamond Zerg player and have run into exactly the same issue that is limiting my play. I have always struggled to memorize crisp builds while responding to what is going on in game, and still macro'ing correctly.
To help solve this problem I created Benchmarker as a training map and a replacement for YABOT that should hopefully function better than just playing against the AI. It has configurable alerts that help remind you in game about the kinds of things you are forgetting (like probe and pylon production) while giving yourself a measurable set of goals (benchmarks) to practice against.
If you do happen to give it a try, please let me know if there are ways that it can be improved to help with what you're going through. I have created it specifically to take a Diamond player like myself to Masters by helping train build/macro fundamentals to GM levels (eventually) so any other Diamond players who can provide feedback is greatly appreciated.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/460632-benchmarker-beta
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Thanks for all the advice! Will look to trying out each tip here.
<3
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watch good pros streams practice a ton of games a day (grind a specific mu and map) replay analysis and note when your macro slips and/or the number of times you get supply blocked along with watching streams, expose yourself to lots of high level play (watch SPL vods!!) and think beyond the play-by-play play without the mindset of winning. play with the mindset of improving, whether you win or lose is irrelevant dont make excuses, set yourself tough goals (like eg. never go over 500 minerals a game)
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Wrong thread, sorry, had multiple tabs open.
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On December 29 2014 14:29 llaMWell wrote: How do you guys cope with the fact that protoss is so ridiculously much easier to play lategame? I'm getting so pissed off and frustrated that I don't even know what to say. I feel like I should just uninstall, burn my PC and move on. This is so fucking stupid. I mean I keep losing to these horrible platinum players just because I literally can't manage to do anything against a turtling protoss. It doesn't matter if I'm 70 supply up simply by macroing, have millions of bases and barracks, tons of ghosts and vikings, once I have to face the army I'm dead no matter what I do.
I've tried playing toss myself for a few days to see if it really is that easy in PvT, and it seriously fucking is. After a few days of playing protoss I'm 100 % sure I would crush my own terran which I have been practicing for like 2-3 years, and I don't even know what all the protoss hotkeys are! (I'm having an easier time beating other protosses with protoss than with my main race! How fucking silly isn't that?) Like I can't be the only one feeling this way. Is this seriously how the game is meant to be? a) Does this even belong in this thread? and b)This isn't really a constructive way to approach a question. You should be asking "How do I improve my lategame vs Protoss" or "how do I win before the lategame vs Protoss" along with a replay, in the correct thread (Terran Help Me Thread or start your own) instead of posting what comes off at worst a balance whine and at best an incredibly unspecific query which is effectively impossible to answer. We can't help you much without a replay anyway.
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On December 29 2014 14:29 llaMWell wrote: How do you guys cope with the fact that protoss is so ridiculously much easier to play lategame? I'm getting so pissed off and frustrated that I don't even know what to say. I feel like I should just uninstall, burn my PC and move on. This is so fucking stupid. I mean I keep losing to these horrible platinum players just because I literally can't manage to do anything against a turtling protoss. It doesn't matter if I'm 70 supply up simply by macroing, have millions of bases and barracks, tons of ghosts and vikings, once I have to face the army I'm dead no matter what I do.
I've tried playing toss myself for a few days to see if it really is that easy in PvT, and it seriously fucking is. After a few days of playing protoss I'm 100 % sure I would crush my own terran which I have been practicing for like 2-3 years, and I don't even know what all the protoss hotkeys are! (I'm having an easier time beating other protosses with protoss than with my main race! How fucking silly isn't that?) Like I can't be the only one feeling this way. Is this seriously how the game is meant to be? It might just be that you're naturally better at Protoss than with other races. Honestly, I suck so bad whenever I try Protoss even when following a build, but perform much better with Terran.
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On December 29 2014 15:08 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2014 14:29 llaMWell wrote: How do you guys cope with the fact that protoss is so ridiculously much easier to play lategame? I'm getting so pissed off and frustrated that I don't even know what to say. I feel like I should just uninstall, burn my PC and move on. This is so fucking stupid. I mean I keep losing to these horrible platinum players just because I literally can't manage to do anything against a turtling protoss. It doesn't matter if I'm 70 supply up simply by macroing, have millions of bases and barracks, tons of ghosts and vikings, once I have to face the army I'm dead no matter what I do.
I've tried playing toss myself for a few days to see if it really is that easy in PvT, and it seriously fucking is. After a few days of playing protoss I'm 100 % sure I would crush my own terran which I have been practicing for like 2-3 years, and I don't even know what all the protoss hotkeys are! (I'm having an easier time beating other protosses with protoss than with my main race! How fucking silly isn't that?) Like I can't be the only one feeling this way. Is this seriously how the game is meant to be? a) Does this even belong in this thread? and b)This isn't really a constructive way to approach a question. You should be asking "How do I improve my lategame vs Protoss" or "how do I win before the lategame vs Protoss" along with a replay, in the correct thread (Terran Help Me Thread or start your own) instead of posting what comes off at worst a balance whine and at best an incredibly unspecific query which is effectively impossible to answer. We can't help you much without a replay anyway.
Oh, jesus, I just realized I posted in the wrong thread. I did actually mean to post it in the Terran Help Me Thread. Sorry.
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this is how i improved my macro
you have a hierarchy of needs in starcraft. economy is always at the bottom of the hierarchy: if you don't need to do anything else, build probes, pylons and nexuses (or drones, overlords, hatcheries in my case). typically a player's problems with macro has to do with your mind wandering - if you're worried about your opponent's tech or a possible attack, that's distracting you from probing. but if you don't know whether to worry about an attack or not then your scouting has already failed. so step 2 after "build economy" is to know when and how to scout. do i have early gas for ling speed? am i committing to a lot of roaches? if you've scouted correctly and you know there isn't a lot of pressure coming, then you can comfortably focus on your economy and infrastructure, which means more of your mental energy is going to macro
scouting is tied in very closely with everything else in the game because you are using little bits of information to create a larger picture of what you think your opponent is doing. if i'm throwing 20 speedlings at you then you prioritize walling and defending over spamming probes and pylons, but if i'm gasless and droning up then you shouldn't be thinking about defending an attack because there is no attack.
obviously your end goal is to be able to do everything perfectly all at once, but let's be real, most of us aren't that good. until then, try to compartmentalize your goals to make your game plans flow more tightly
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For me the biggest boosts in my macro have come from two things:
1. Stop trying to rush things out / hit the fastest timings possible. Wanting to be supply blocked for a few seconds just so that production facility goes down before the pylon adds up real quick and makes a difference.
2. Identify when my attention was fully absorbed by something and then make a mental note to myself that as soon as I recognise myself focusing to that degree again on that thing, I must check my weakness asap before going back to it. This one took a looong time (and still very much a work in progress for sure haha) to improve but it helps.
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What helps me is having a "cycle" of things that i need to do. For example, when learning to inject, drone up, not get supply blocked etc as zerg, i wrote a list of things on a sticky note that i HAD to do, no matter what was happening in the game.
1. inject 2. check supply count (make ovies) 3. drone up 4. creep spread 5. scout (move lings/army around)
and no matter what happened, i looked at that sticky note which i stuck to the top corner of my monitor and I forced myself to go through that cycle. what it helped was train my injects (always check my bases) and creep spread and improve my apm to be able to follow a build and think strategically while doing all the mechanical things i needed to play zerg.
For protoss, you can write yourself a list like: 1. make probes 2. check supply count/make plyons 3. make army 4. chronoboost structures/check upgrades 5. scout with obsphoenix/posture army around
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The basic is : Continuous production, use your chronoboost. Don't be supply block Take expand at the right timing.
Of course, as diamand player i think you aware of that.
To improve you must : Watch pro replays, trying to invent things is the waste of time, learn from the pros who has much more pratice than you. There is not real replay packs now (but a few tournaments release them sometimes), so you should watch replay (i recommend sc2cast for that) and analyse the production tab, see when they make what. Watch pro stream of your race, as a first person view of a pro is so valuable to get some handsome tips.
So take a real macro build order from a pros : It must be really precise, you must know everything : gaz timing, building timing, pylon timing, when you must send the probe to build an expansion to minimize the timing lost, etc... Protoss don't need that much a lot of mechanisms compared to other race, but they must to be very precise on their build order and their move.
Another way to have more drone is to play more creedy. If in PvP the other take a fast expand while you stay on 1 base for a long, you have less probe even if you have good macro mechanism. When you play in higher league, you must learn to take more risk, to play with less army units at the beginning of the game to have more drone later and so outmacro your opponent. It force you to have better control of your unit, and better scout to identify the right among of stuff you need to defend some harass/pressure/cheese.
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On December 28 2014 21:20 Dan26 wrote:
*Edit* - Oh yea one more thing: After you've done some training; you need to have a large gaming session to really nail in that macro. When you have the time, just dedicate to 20-50 ladder games in one go (with short breaks for water of course). E.g.
Goal:- Don't get supply blocked, constantly build workers: - Play 30 ladder games in one session no matter what. - Focus on just this one area - If you still lose achieving solid macro, note why. (this will give you other areas to focus on later, in a similar fashion)
Whoa that seems rather overkill... I don't think that just grinding a lot of games necessarily is the best training
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Yeah dont see why 30 games are needed. Otherwise yes, just really focus on it every game. And go through the replays and just stare at your nexus to see when and why you slip (it'll be during battles and micro/harass sessions), and then don't do that next game.
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I think you should just try to explore different styles. For example, when I play PvT and I try to go for a standard Blink stalker collosus build, I find myself getting supply blocked alot more often than if I go for a templar build, (this is probably because collosus cost 6 food and I am not prepared for it).
I also find myself getting supply blocked alot when I make units that cost an odd amount of supply like an oracle. Basically, you need to find the style that you are most comfortable with first to minimize supply blocks.
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On December 28 2014 20:22 Motlu wrote: I am a Diamond Protoss player and lately I have been hitting a wall when it comes to improvement, and looking at my replays it seems my macro is quite weak relative to my opponents (most noticeable in pvp with the amount of probes we end up with, less so in the army department although still noticeable).
So, after a 9 game lose streak today I have decided to come to you for your tips and advice on improving in the probes and pylon's category.
So far I am working on improving my memorisation of my build orders but I find that after the first 5-6 mins or so my macro slips dramatically (chiefly probe/pylon production).
What are the things you have done/are doing to improve your macro?
Some people use macro trainers, but honestly it worked really well for me to take a few minutes a few times a day (when I'm not playing) and visualize gamestates (openings, engagements, drop defense, whatever) and then visualize your rotation in those gamestates (checking money, micro, checking supply, micro, checking probes, micro, warp in, micro, check upgrades, micro, rinse and repeat) and it sort of solidifies the habit over time. Good mechanics, in a nutshell, are just having a disciplined mental checklist and cycling through it as fast as possible without compromising your control. Think of it like brain juggling.
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On December 29 2014 21:47 neptunusfisk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2014 21:20 Dan26 wrote:
*Edit* - Oh yea one more thing: After you've done some training; you need to have a large gaming session to really nail in that macro. When you have the time, just dedicate to 20-50 ladder games in one go (with short breaks for water of course). E.g.
Goal:- Don't get supply blocked, constantly build workers: - Play 30 ladder games in one session no matter what. - Focus on just this one area - If you still lose achieving solid macro, note why. (this will give you other areas to focus on later, in a similar fashion) Whoa that seems rather overkill... I don't think that just grinding a lot of games necessarily is the best training
Nope. Bad habits are by nature, an action of your subconscious (the seat of every habit). By grinding 30 games focusing purely on just one aspect (of course you execute your build and do normal stuff like scouting) you ingrain this action into your subconscious.
As a sidenote, your mind's subconscious has about a million times more processing power than your conscious mind (this is true scientific fact). You can impress upon your subconscious by focusing your consciousness on one thing over time. Hence this training method is the most effective.
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I wanted to take a second to mention a resource that has not appeared in this thread yet.
ggtracker.com is a free service that allows you to upload your replays to it, and provides far more information than simply watching the replays. It also has a built-in algorithm which measures your spending and probe saturation rate, and compares it to around ten thousand games of all levels IN THAT MATCHUP in order to give your macro a "league" rating. While certainly imperfect, it is a really valuable tool for replay analysis, providing around a dozen graphs to analyze different aspects of your macro and production. Give it a try! It is free!
Plat Protoss here, for what it is worth, or if it matters.
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