My build rushes out a stalker and a mothership core along with 2 gas. 9 pylon 13 gate 14 gas 16 pylon 17 gas 18 core 20 pylon @ 100% core => MSc and stalker then warp gate.
1) Pro's If the enemy has any units losing a probe isn't that big of a deal. Con's You lose alot of mining time early game. If you scout with this build after gateway you won't be able to get the cybernetics core fast enough to deal with an early reaper, so it would probably need to be sent after Mothership core is done.
2) pro's Stalker is a fast unit that can easily get away from marines and cost no mining time con's If the opponent is doing a marauder/widow mine opening it can get caught and die
3) Pro's Marauder mine won't kill a Mothership core Con's Marines can catch it in the middle of the map and kill it, thus costing the game. However, this won't happen if the map terrain has dead space.
I also follow up the stalker by getting a quick sentry. This lets me send a hallucination for a follow up scout @ 6:30.
If you're doing a stalker + msc build, you should just use the msc to scout imo. That's really the only advantage you get imo. Also, are you sure this so called build you came up with is any better than 13 gate 13 gas? I find it hard to believe you came up with something more optimal than that.
Now, that aside, here's the important question - what are you scouting for? If you can't answer that, it's hard to help you. Scouting with a hallucination is pretty overkill if you go robo. It makes no sense imo. There isn't anything that you'll see at this point that you shouldn't already know or that your observer will not spot in time to deal with.
If you're going Stalker sentry, I think you should definitely gateway scout in order to make sure you're not dealing with a gas first opener or something weird that involves marauders (e.g. reactor techlab). Stalker sentry is not optimal against these builds.
With that build I would definitely poke with both the stalker and the MSC. If the Terran goes for CC first it is a pretty good opening that is really annoying to deal with. If he isn't doing CC first you can send the MSC in to scout and be annoying with the stalker at his ramp.
That is the only advantage I see you getting with this build over a more economical and standard 1 gate expand -> MSC+Stalker.
Getting the MSC and Stalker before Nexus is quite unorthodox for a reason. You are often behind if Terran is opening cookie cutter safe 1 Rax -> Expand. But yeah, it can catch some players off guard. There are some players that plays these types of styles, I think iNcontroL does something similar in his PvT endeavors.
Stalker + msc is pretty good when it comes to moving out on the map to scout in general. It's even possible to kill the reaper sometimes before you move out. There's also the fact that sometimes you can do some damage with the poke. It's also safer to do this build blindly against builds like the 11-11.
On February 15 2015 20:08 vhapter wrote: Stalker + msc is pretty good when it comes to moving out on the map to scout in general. It's even possible to kill the reaper sometimes before you move out. There's also the fact that sometimes you can do some damage with the poke. It's also safer to do this build blindly against builds like the 11-11.
I agree. If you open Stalker + MSC as per usual, you can send the MSC out right away. The stalker is out in time to fend off the reaper. That is one of the pros of using this opening.
The build outlined in the OP is Stalker + MSC before Nexus. There are very few reasons why you would open that way when you can get away with and be safe with Nexus before MSC/Stalker.
My point was only that if you decide to delay your Nexus in order to get units out faster, you should probably use them for something. Probe scouting is not really needed because you have such high army value fast enough to deal with pretty much anything anyways.
Poke with both of them and see what you can get done instead.
I was talking about 13 gate 13 gas stalker + msc into nexus. You can obviously deny scouting more easily with this build and send the msc to scout at the same time, so there is a reason to do this. It's one thing to think about if you want to open blink, since you can both see if there's a factory and you can deny scouting more efficiently too.
CJherO did this build quite a few times last year. Like here:
To be frank I'm not sure you really need to scout in early game PvT if you're willing to accept you can fall behind against a CC first (then you can always try to catch up with fast double upgrades or storm + colossi on two bases). Otherwise dealing with factory timings relies on good control + always the same units (stalkers and obs) so I would feel comfortable not scouting the opponent at all.
On February 15 2015 22:54 [PkF] Wire wrote: To be frank I'm not sure you really need to scout in early game PvT if you're willing to accept you can fall behind against a CC first (then you can always try to catch up with fast double upgrades or storm + colossi on two bases). Otherwise dealing with factory timings relies on good control + always the same units (stalkers and obs) so I would feel comfortable not scouting the opponent at all.
I seem to face alot of cheesy terrans on ladder, that open mass reaper on catalena, as well as go widow mine drop into mech, (collosus isn't very good vs mech). With that in mind I Think scouting is essential if you have absolutely no idea what your oponent will do.
On February 15 2015 19:43 vhapter wrote: If you're doing a stalker + msc build, you should just use the msc to scout imo. That's really the only advantage you get imo. Also, are you sure this so called build you came up with is any better than 13 gate 13 gas? I find it hard to believe you came up with something more optimal than that.
Now, that aside, here's the important question - what are you scouting for? If you can't answer that, it's hard to help you. Scouting with a hallucination is pretty overkill if you go robo. It makes no sense imo. There isn't anything that you'll see at this point that you shouldn't already know or that your observer will not spot in time to deal with.
If you're going Stalker sentry, I think you should definitely gateway scout in order to make sure you're not dealing with a gas first opener or something weird that involves marauders (e.g. reactor techlab). Stalker sentry is not optimal against these builds.
I am scouting for gas. I wanna know the follow up after the terran goes reaper, or whether or not they open straight factory. I also wanna scout if they are going mech or bio, because if they go mech i wanna get attack upgrades, if they go bio i want armor.
On February 15 2015 22:54 [PkF] Wire wrote: To be frank I'm not sure you really need to scout in early game PvT if you're willing to accept you can fall behind against a CC first (then you can always try to catch up with fast double upgrades or storm + colossi on two bases). Otherwise dealing with factory timings relies on good control + always the same units (stalkers and obs) so I would feel comfortable not scouting the opponent at all.
How do you deal with 11/11 and super fast hellion though? Like gas first->reactor hellion. I feel like I kinda need to chrono stalkers vs that but maybe I'm just bad : D
To scout if they're going gas first, you can either gateway scout. Their barracks finished at 3:00, which is pretty late - a regular marine comes out at 3:05-3:10, so as you can see the rax finishes much later. However, if you refuse to gateway scout, then you have to rely on inference.
Against reaper builds, doing that cybercore scouting trick is enough to spot the cc if it's on the low ground and possibly see if the terran went 2-3 rax of factory, but it's not guaranteed if they do something weird like build their cc on the high ground and whatnot. But if your opponent is going gas first, he can deny scouting, so it's not that reliable if you want to know exactly how early the attack will come.
As for a later factory, if the terran opened reaper expand then your observer will arrive in time for you to get ready to deal with it. It's not like you should do anything different at this point though, even if you do scout a factory follow-up.
If they're going mech, you will definitely spot it with your first observer before you have to choose whether you get attack or armor upgrades. Unless you get a late robo for no reason, so just get a 4:40-4:50 robo instead and you're good. The only exception to this is if you're getting a forge 6:30 or so, which is not even common in the metagame anymore. But even if you're doing that, I don't think changing your build to be able to choose attack upgrade is worth the fuss just because of silly mech builds.
WARNING : I'm NOT a good player (high diamond) so what works for me may be very bad and I may very well feel the need to scout gas first builds if I ever go up the ladder one day. With that in mind :
On February 16 2015 05:55 AkashSky wrote: I seem to face alot of cheesy terrans on ladder, that open mass reaper on catalena, as well as go widow mine drop into mech, (collosus isn't very good vs mech). With that in mind I Think scouting is essential if you have absolutely no idea what your oponent will do.
You'll identify mech soon enough to stop at two colossi and switch to immortals. I didn't say don't scout at all , I said you don't really need intel until your obs can reach the opponent's base, or even until you can get a hallucination to the T base. MaNa showed very well in his WCS Challenger match against HeroMarine on Overgrowth that a small army of 2 colossi with range + 3-4 immortals + some blink stalkers has the potential to keep the T from getting his third easily.
On February 16 2015 06:22 Lazermonkey wrote: How do you deal with 11/11 and super fast hellion though? Like gas first->reactor hellion. I feel like I kinda need to chrono stalkers vs that but maybe I'm just bad : D
I always make a pylon in my natural so that my natural mineral line is uncomfortable for hellions (easy to do on Deadwing for instance). I usually go stalker -> stalker -> sentry and a well placed forcefield helps a lot against hellions. You need to micro probes against it and sometimes they'll line up and you'll be behind, that happens.
The main reason why I don't scout is I realized I barely tweaked my build when I knew factory aggression was coming. Only thing you should do different if you know it's coming is getting your natural gas after two quick additional gates and chrono your second stalker, but that's all and even with 6:30 additional gates you should be able to hold in most cases with clutch minimap awareness. I'm far more worried about cc first builds than about gas first builds because cc first can get ahead of me hugely with close to no way for me to punish it. Once again, it's my experience, and maybe better players than me will say that I'm saying ridiculous shit. If I recall correctly Rain often doesn't scout in PvT so you may learn a lot by watching his stream. gl !
Here is our video on a simple PvT opener. From then on out we recommend grabbing your natural and then pumping out 1 or 2 sentry to block your ramp from any possible Terran units entering, while using your core to defend. And then you should make a robo, and 2 observers, and 1 more gateway. Once your robo is done you should make 2 forges and a robo bay for colossus. Upgrade to 1-1. Once your natural expansion is down make sure to add 3 more gateways. Move out once you have enough units and 3 colossus upgraded 2-2, also make sure to get thermal lance as soon as your bay is down. ^^ enjoy~!
I know this wasn't the question, but I feel it'd be good advice, and the builds are very similar!
Here is our video on a simple PvT opener. From then on out we recommend grabbing your natural and then pumping out 1 or 2 sentry to block your ramp from any possible Terran units entering, while using your core to defend. And then you should make a robo, and 2 observers, and 1 more gateway. Once your robo is done you should make 2 forges and a robo bay for colossus. Upgrade to 1-1. Once your natural expansion is down make sure to add 3 more gateways. Move out once you have enough units and 3 colossus upgraded 2-2, also make sure to get thermal lance as soon as your bay is down. ^^ enjoy~!
I know this wasn't the question, but I feel it'd be good advice, and the builds are very similar!
Its a cool build, and I would love to try something similar. However, I don't like the fact that your first unit in that video pops out at 4:25. This means that any DECENT terran player attempting to play a macro style that opens REAPER expand will get a reaper to your base at 4:05. This means there are 20 SECONDS of FREE probe harass for that reaper. I think you are garenteed to lose at least 1 probe against a player who micro's properly, because you cannot save probes for 20 seconds against a reaper with micro.
This build needs to get that mothership core alot faster to prevent unnecessary probe losses. So i'll try and modify it to see if I can get the MSC out at 4:05.
Here is our video on a simple PvT opener. From then on out we recommend grabbing your natural and then pumping out 1 or 2 sentry to block your ramp from any possible Terran units entering, while using your core to defend. And then you should make a robo, and 2 observers, and 1 more gateway. Once your robo is done you should make 2 forges and a robo bay for colossus. Upgrade to 1-1. Once your natural expansion is down make sure to add 3 more gateways. Move out once you have enough units and 3 colossus upgraded 2-2, also make sure to get thermal lance as soon as your bay is down. ^^ enjoy~!
I know this wasn't the question, but I feel it'd be good advice, and the builds are very similar!
Again.bad build...why you making 3-d pylon if you don need this supply...It';s easy : if you dont need it, you dont build it, especialy in early game, you could make Mothership/stalker/zealot anything, but not pylon
Here is our video on a simple PvT opener. From then on out we recommend grabbing your natural and then pumping out 1 or 2 sentry to block your ramp from any possible Terran units entering, while using your core to defend. And then you should make a robo, and 2 observers, and 1 more gateway. Once your robo is done you should make 2 forges and a robo bay for colossus. Upgrade to 1-1. Once your natural expansion is down make sure to add 3 more gateways. Move out once you have enough units and 3 colossus upgraded 2-2, also make sure to get thermal lance as soon as your bay is down. ^^ enjoy~!
I know this wasn't the question, but I feel it'd be good advice, and the builds are very similar!
Again.bad build...why you making 3-d pylon if you don need this supply...It';s easy : if you dont need it, you dont build it, especialy in early game, you could make Mothership/stalker/zealot anything, but not pylon
Here is our video on a simple PvT opener. From then on out we recommend grabbing your natural and then pumping out 1 or 2 sentry to block your ramp from any possible Terran units entering, while using your core to defend. And then you should make a robo, and 2 observers, and 1 more gateway. Once your robo is done you should make 2 forges and a robo bay for colossus. Upgrade to 1-1. Once your natural expansion is down make sure to add 3 more gateways. Move out once you have enough units and 3 colossus upgraded 2-2, also make sure to get thermal lance as soon as your bay is down. ^^ enjoy~!
I know this wasn't the question, but I feel it'd be good advice, and the builds are very similar!
Again.bad build...why you making 3-d pylon if you don need this supply...It';s easy : if you dont need it, you dont build it, especialy in early game, you could make Mothership/stalker/zealot anything, but not pylon
Would you like to share a better build?
Yeh, just normal gate expand. YouTube video with HeRo , he doing it..3-d pylon goes after expansion. If you want stalker faster (but you don need it faster), go for 10 gate-> zealot-core-stalker pressure.Google it, it's easy build.
On February 15 2015 22:54 [PkF] Wire wrote: To be frank I'm not sure you really need to scout in early game PvT if you're willing to accept you can fall behind against a CC first (then you can always try to catch up with fast double upgrades or storm + colossi on two bases). Otherwise dealing with factory timings relies on good control + always the same units (stalkers and obs) so I would feel comfortable not scouting the opponent at all.
How do you deal with 11/11 and super fast hellion though? Like gas first->reactor hellion. I feel like I kinda need to chrono stalkers vs that but maybe I'm just bad : D
I just scout for proxies after gateway and return home. If Terran does not SCV scout or SCV scouts but does not even try to ebay block/delay natural then I will patrol a probe at nat to see any possible bunkers.
Am I missing something? If so please explain it to me
You open MSC+Stalker before Nexus (according the the build order in the OP).
Versus a proxy rax you pretty much get a free win. Just keep chronoing stalkers. You open one of the absolute safest ways you can. There isn't anything you need to worry with that would change the way you played the build. You don't need to scout with it. Send the stalker and the MSC out towards the T natural and you'll get all the information you need.
If he goes reaper, he will be low on marines, your stalker+MSC combo will do some damage. Then get another stalker back home and micro your probes a tiny bit.
The biggest upside with the build you are suggesting is the fact that you are super safe and put pressure on early with both stalker and MSC. This is really annoying for a T to deal with, especially CC first or Reaper expand. You take a delayed Nexus for earlier unites so you should try to get something out of it, no?
The standard 2 gas build today is something along these lines:
And you are still safe against most things a Terran can throw at you with just a little bit of micro.
With a build like that I understand your question about scouting. Probe means you can sneak in and see if it is CC first, gas first, 1 Rax expand with gas, 1 Rax expand without rax , that is about it. Unless you hide the probe for later. However your build will be slightly delayed.
MSC gets there a little bit later. Leave the stalker in the base to fend of the reaper if he has one. The key you are looking for if it is a 1/1/1 type of thing or a more barracks heavy deal.
Stalker won't tell you a lot. But you can clear watchtowers and make the map feel like a dangerous place for the T to be. Also gives you an advantage over the naked random marine pushes as you start picking of some health on the marines right away.
It is a stylistic choice with different pros and cons.
Ok I was too lazy to read all of the replies, but the option are pretty much : - Not scouting at all and going for a really safe opening (not what you asked for but it's really popular at a high level ) - Scouting at 13 like the safe dude you are, I personally like it on small 2 players map when I can build my expand with my scouting probe after scouting. - Scouting with a probe after the nexus, taking a path to the side to avoid the repear, and see what the terran is going for behind his repear.
Scouting with the Ms is safe vs cc first, kinda gambly vs everything else (it's no fun when 2 hellions says hi while your ms is in the middle of the map ) So sometime you see it in high level matchs where the toss is confident his opponent isn't gonna do something to abuse ms scouting.
On a side note, One gas FE is overall a better build than 2 gas on most maps, so I would recommend you to try it out