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Hello TL SC2 community,
I am a relatively new player to SC2 as I got into the game by watching professional tournaments the last 6 months or so. The time I got into SC2 was when I was tired of Dota 2. Since I had already purchased WoL when it came out I decided to play that version of the game on the EU ladder since I wasn't sure if I would want to pay for HotS since it basically only adds a few new units.
In Dota 2 I was a very high skilled guy (around 5400 MMR, or about top 500 players on EU ladder) so I figured I wouldn't do too bad at SC2. At first I was placed into the gold league, before I was easily promoted after having 75 % win rate or higher after 50 or so games (https://sc2replaystats.com/account/display/6889). Currently I was sitting top 5 in the platinum after 100 or so games which were 1v1, and I even crushed my first diamond player yesterday and played relatively even versus a master guy which was what inspired me to take the next step and purchase HotS.
My play style in WoL was greedy (albeit being able to defend from all-ins or attacks) and focused on macro. I also like to utilize drop play but not as a rush or all-in. In WoL it was easy to get a quick 2nd CC and then attack near the 11 minute mark with +1/+1 infantry upgrades as well as siege tanks + medivacs. Sometimes I would mix it up with banshee rushes etc. The few times I did lose in WoL was to some bad mistakes on my part on not being prepared (e.g 2 base roach all-ins or allowing an enemy probe to build a gateway inside my wall) but for the most part I felt pretty good especially in TvT and TvZ.
After the HotS purchase I had to go through the 5 placement matches, but since I had MMR and an active league in WoL I was already facing a diamond player in my very first HotS game. That first game went wrong, I tried to out-greed my Zerg opponent by going for 3 early CC's, but he scouted me and baneling-busted me down. I knew the mistake was mine to be way too greedy but I felt I needed more than a normal game to beat a diamond. It was all over in 9 minutes.
The second game was TvP, my worst matchup, and my opponent rushed an Oracle. Man these things are insane. I lost the game to the amount of workers I lost to that Oracle My starport just finished as his Oracle flew over my base so now only did he see me going for cloak banshee but he got loads of workers. My opponent was pretty passive and I did try to go for really quick expansions for base 3 and 4 since my opponent was rather passive. But he was too far ahead and his fights was just insane. The high templar storm is just insane vs bio. I lost after 30 minutes.
Third game was TvT, where my opponent rushed multiple widow mine drops at both my bases simultaneously. Again I lost too much early and lost the game.
Fourth placement game I had lost all confidence in my regular playstyle, so I went for a proxy barracks vs Protoss with 4 reapears. It did nothing and my opponent forced me back and counter-attacked me and I lost after 8 minutes.
The last game it was TvT, i opened double reapers to try to harass but it did nothing. Alas my opponent was another one of the widow mine drop rushers. The game was quick and decisive and I had lost all 5 placement games and was subsequently placed into Silver of 1v1.
HotS skill level is insanely much higher than WoL and leagues can not be compared. How can I adjust better to HotS as a greedy-macro Terran? Should I play another race if I prefer good macro? Any other tips? I am open to learning and don't care about losing, I just want to reach a pretty solid level of SC2 asap so I can enjoy the strategy part of the game when I am able to execute what I want and not die or lose to early harassment.
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Yeah the overall skill level is really high lately. Greedy macro Terran is still very much possible. You should try and get some inspiration from pro KR builds. Notice that playing macro in TvT is not recommended though, it's much easier to play agressive builds (marine hellion elevator for instance should get you to high plat level quite quickly if you do it right).
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unlearn everything you've learned.
then start wit the Terran Help Me thread and look at pro VODs.
greedy terran is not only possible, but its pretty strong vP and vZ, which is why lots of P and even Z like to allin terran.
you should just go 1-1-1 into expand vs T
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On February 25 2015 03:48 ZeromuS wrote:
I would recommend you open with reapers in TvP as it will help you scout. I dont play terran so I'm not 100% sure what i should recommend in TvZ and TvT - but reapers in TvT will help you scout and if you feel comfortable to respond and read your opponents build then reapers are always good.
I believe learning a hellion opener for TvZ would allow you to outplay opponents as well but I'll let a Terran recommend a TvZ build specifically.
Thanks for the help so far. You mention going for reapers as in plural, which is what I did versus Protoss on Vaani Research Station. Although I did proxy the barracks and built 4 reapears to go with a hidden bunker, it did almost nothing and my opponent was able to counter-attack me with his force and it was over before I knew what happened. How many reapears should I go and is it even worth it to go for more than 1? I almost never opened with more than 1 reaper in WoL when I did go for reaper openings, it was purely as primarily scout and if lucky a few worker kills. In this replay I had lost all confidence in my regular play style so I opted for the proxy barracks which may have had a very flawed execution, I honestly rarely play this way but I felt I had to do something unorthodox to match up to my opponents. TvP Vaani RS (Game 4): http://drop.sc/394305
Another TvP. This time I send only 1 reaper after my SCV scout to confirm 1 base and his stargate was extremely quick. Honestly this is just painful to watch, I was not at all prepared to deal with the oracle (that's the name right?). The oracle got around 20 kills and I just got humiliated the way I could humiliate other platinum players in WoL with my banshee opening. I can deal with a banshee rush, but this oracle was extremely powerful considering it comes back with full shields. How do I respond to this threat? I had already went for an expansion after the Reaper. TvP Overgrowth (Game 2): http://drop.sc/394302
A new thing I saw was the startport rush to multiple medivac drops at both my bases, because I had taken my natural early while he was on 1 base. I opened with double reaper and a bunker outside his natural expecting him to take his base and then pressure him to buy me some time to finish my CC. But he just bypassed it and won the game with his drops and follow up attack. How does TvT work in HotS compared to WoL? What could I have done better this game? TvT: Overgrowth (Game 5): http://drop.sc/394304
Overall I played very badly and I know it. But it wouldn't have mattered even If played a good game. I simply got crushed in all 5 games and the amount of pressure I faced (especially the first 7-10 minutes) was something new and hard for me to deal with and a major factor of why I lost all the games. Towards game 4 and 5 I had lost much of my confidence so that's when I started experimenting with unconventional builds.
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On February 25 2015 03:52 [PkF] Wire wrote: Yeah the overall skill level is really high lately. Greedy macro Terran is still very much possible. You should try and get some inspiration from pro KR builds. Notice that playing macro in TvT is not recommended though, it's much easier to play agressive builds (marine hellion elevator for instance should get you to high plat level quite quickly if you do it right).
Pretty sure when LoTv comes out and the flood of players saturate the ladder that anyone diamond + will be in masters, maybe even some plats depending on how many people play the first season.
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On February 25 2015 03:52 [PkF] Wire wrote: Yeah the overall skill level is really high lately. Greedy macro Terran is still very much possible. You should try and get some inspiration from pro KR builds. Notice that playing macro in TvT is not recommended though, it's much easier to play agressive builds (marine hellion elevator for instance should get you to high plat level quite quickly if you do it right).
Those are some nice tips. Any pros in particular I should look at for builds?
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On February 25 2015 03:57 nath wrote:
you should just go 1-1-1 into expand vs T
What's a 1-1-1?
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TvT:
In TvT it is a bad idea to be greedy in early game. The most viable greedy opening would be 15 gas, but it is still risky against other aggressive openers (WidowMine, Banshee, Non-15Gas Hellion, Tank push). I would recommend doing Gas First Banshee, so u can scout the opponent and react to his playstyle (Like going 2 extra CC if he is greedy, or more Rax/early tank production if u see an aggressive push incoming). Basically, every TvT build of the meta is 1-1-1 (1 Rax 1 Fac 1 Port) If u scout Banshee, get raven and viking. If u scout widowmines, micro your workers away and build a raven If u see hellions, be a little bit more defensive and get a viking after your banshee. (Getting some hellions is not a bad idea) If u see an early tank push, build 2 banshees, raven and tanks for holding that and go for a counter attack since holding this isnt really hard with banshees.
TvP: The meta at the moment is 12 Gas Reaper into CC and 3 Rax Stim (u can find it at imbabuilds.com named ''Polts Reaper FE into 3 Rax) or a 1-1-1 Widowmine drop which can do a good amount of damage to the income of the toss. U can also go 3 Rax without Reaper (Bomber's Opening) for more units earlier, but u can only rely on a scv scout which is not a good idea for scouting major all ins. Basically 3 Rax (Gasless or with Reaper) gives u a good amount of units at the 6-10 minutes for forcing out units and photon overcharge from the MSC which results into a good 10 minute poke which can do heavy damage if he still doesnt aoe units out. Scouting: The only scouts for terran in TvP is the scv and the reaper (scans are not always good). - Proxy Oracle: Even with early 3 Rax, the oracle can be game ending if it doesnt get scouted because u dont have enough marines for fighting an oracle (U need a minimum of 6 marines to kill an oracle). This can be scouted with scv and reaper by seeing the toss having 2 early gasses, no expand and no heavy spending of gas in his base. The reaction against this is a bunker or turret in the mineral line (I recommend turret, because u dont need to guard the mineral line anymore and the lonely marines which come from your barracks dont get picked off easily). The time window for having not enough marines for such an oracle is pretty tiny, so u only need to survive a little bit) - 10 Gate Oracle: This is a more all-in version of the proxy oracle which gets an earlier oracle out (around 20 seconds earlier). This can only be scouted by a scv since u need an 4 min ebay where the turret at the mineral line finishes when the oracle comes. Reaper may scout this way too late and u are usually dead even with instant reaction. The good thing about this, it is obviously more all-in, and that ebay doesnt really damage u as much as his early oracle. - 10 Gate into 1 Zealot and 2 Stalkers: This can only, and I mean only be scouted with scv since it hits very early and requires an instant bunker to hold. Actually, just keep in mind, early chronoboosted gate always means aggression and requires a bunker to hold.
- Blink all in (It is a common name of this, but unfortunately, it is not really an all-in. The toss can fall back and macro like nothing happened even if u hold it. (See every TvP in early 2014)) or dt pressure: This can be both from 1 base and 2 base. The best scouting timing is at 6 minutes with your reaper where u can scout for the tech buildings (Dark shrine or Twilight Council). A not working twilight council with no templar archives nearby is definitely DT pressure. A lot of gates and a working twilight council is blink all-in (pressure) which requires a great amount of bunkers to hold (depends on the map).
Alright, as you can see, not losing your reaper is crucial or you will play blind and probably lose the game if u guessed false. I guess u know how to play TvP itself, since nothing really changed. But just in case, in short, TvP for the terran is harassing the toss while building your own army and infrastracture in the midgame. In the lategame, u go for macro orbitals and rax and even more harass and maybe try to catch the army of the toss out of position for a good fight and win the game.
Alright, let's come to TvZ: - The metagame at the moment is 3 CC 2 Reaper6Hellion/1Reaper8Hellion where u win yourself map control and force a lot of lings out. (For every listed build in this post, check imbabuilds.com or teamliquids strategy section) What is the big con in this build? It is hard to hold all ins and timings like roach bane busts, 1-1 roach or fast muta. Of course they all can be scouted by your hellions. The best way (according to other terrans I asked) to play the TvZ is playing Bio + Widowmines (Widowmines are really mobile and cheap and do lots of damage and are always cost-efficient/For examples check Innovation playing TvZ or Bomber's run at 2013 Season 2 Finals). - U can also add banshees to the build where u delay your 3rd cc for more aggression to the zerg. - There is a very rare opener where u open 3 CC Gasless into a 13:30 Maxout with 2/2 upgrades. I dont recommend playing this though before u can execute the builds above properly. If u are interested in that later, check liduof's guide in teamliquid (Thanks liduof for that amazing guide <3). Playstyles in TvZ: - Biomine: As I said above, it is really cost efficient but requires constant good macro, splits (for practicing splits check Marine Split Challenge on EU or MLG Marine Split on NA) and multitasking, because if the zergs gets good connections, he gets a good advantage of having less trouble defending his 4th base (The whole game is about the zergs 4th base, if u deny his 4th base, u usually can go win the game, if the zerg gets 80 drones and the 4th, he will just overwhelm you with a loooot of units. - Marine/Tank: This is a lot less viable than in WoL because of the muta's speed and regen buff. Widowmines are way more cost efficient than MarineTank, so i dont recommend playing this unless you are Bomber (Bomber vs Soulkey/Bomber vs Toodming) - Full Bio: Is more fun for you, and the zerg player. The problem with this it requires really, really, good control with your bio and multitasking with drops and macro. - Bio Hellbat: This is a little bit less mobile but it rekts lings really good and it is a good meatshield against the zerg army. Of course, it also requires great micro and macro, but drops are not really that needed, unless u see a great opening for it.
As u can see, this is not WoL at all. Almost everything changed. The reason why you were more successful in WoL is that in WoL there are not many players, and the skill level is really low there. I hope I helped you with this. I am just a diamond player, so I am sry if it does have some flaws in it.
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Canada13372 Posts
On February 25 2015 04:31 qqMagnuz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2015 03:57 nath wrote:
you should just go 1-1-1 into expand vs T What's a 1-1-1?
1-1-1 refers to One barracks, One Factory, One Starport.
Usually it also implies tanks where you get a tech lab on the factory swap the factory with the starport, make a banshee and then rebuild the tech lab and make tanks to follow up. There are also variations where you get hellions and a medivac with marines for pressure and others.
Its very versatile.
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On February 25 2015 04:31 qqMagnuz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2015 03:57 nath wrote:
you should just go 1-1-1 into expand vs T What's a 1-1-1? lel Rax Fac Starport Destiny cloud fist build?
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On February 25 2015 04:30 qqMagnuz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2015 03:52 [PkF] Wire wrote: Yeah the overall skill level is really high lately. Greedy macro Terran is still very much possible. You should try and get some inspiration from pro KR builds. Notice that playing macro in TvT is not recommended though, it's much easier to play agressive builds (marine hellion elevator for instance should get you to high plat level quite quickly if you do it right). Those are some nice tips. Any pros in particular I should look at for builds? I play P so I'm probably not the wisest person to ask, but I had a shot at trying to learn T seriously. I learnt a lot by going through INnoVation, Maru, Cure, MMA and ForGG's games. But any Proleague/GSL/SS2L game should give you pretty good builds.
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On February 25 2015 05:04 HellHound wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2015 04:31 qqMagnuz wrote:On February 25 2015 03:57 nath wrote:
you should just go 1-1-1 into expand vs T What's a 1-1-1? lel Rax Fac Starport Destiny cloud fist build?
Yes, this build. It also can actually work in TvP, but only if the toss doesnt go autopilot and goes expand and assumes u have expanded too (90% of TvP). Raven can make overcharge with pdd useless and u are free to pressure.
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On February 25 2015 05:10 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2015 04:30 qqMagnuz wrote:On February 25 2015 03:52 [PkF] Wire wrote: Yeah the overall skill level is really high lately. Greedy macro Terran is still very much possible. You should try and get some inspiration from pro KR builds. Notice that playing macro in TvT is not recommended though, it's much easier to play agressive builds (marine hellion elevator for instance should get you to high plat level quite quickly if you do it right). Those are some nice tips. Any pros in particular I should look at for builds? I play P so I'm probably not the wisest person to ask, but I had a shot at trying to learn T seriously. I learnt a lot by going through INnoVation, Maru, Cure, MMA and ForGG's games. But any Proleague/GSL/SS2L game should give you pretty good builds.
You are right they do. But I would recommend looking in guides instead of just copying from a game. We can take Bomber's 3 CC TvZ for example. I had troubles executing this build because i didnt understand his adaptions in games or how to react to specific plays (Thanks to liduof's guide, i do now, without him, i wouldnt know how to react and how to execute it properly). You cant just go and copy Bombers Gas First Banshee into 3 CC in TvT without knowing how to adapt to the opponent
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On February 25 2015 03:52 [PkF] Wire wrote: Yeah the overall skill level is really high lately. Greedy macro Terran is still very much possible. You should try and get some inspiration from pro KR builds. Notice that playing macro in TvT is not recommended though, it's much easier to play agressive builds (marine hellion elevator for instance should get you to high plat level quite quickly if you do it right).
It is like telling golds to play gas first banshee. You will not improve except in executing the build. I know good plats who can hold of such attacks. If we take the gold guy as example, he will ask himself after he got to plat: ''Well, he hold off my attack, what do I do now?''. Before u get mid plat, u should play Reaper expand into 3 rax, so u always play a macro game and get an okay-ish idea of how to play macro TvT. Learning aggressive builds is great, but u should know how to win macro games if the attack fails
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On February 25 2015 03:57 nath wrote: unlearn everything you've learned.
then start wit the Terran Help Me thread and look at pro VODs.
greedy terran is not only possible, but its pretty strong vP and vZ, which is why lots of P and even Z like to allin terran.
you should just go 1-1-1 into expand vs T
I recommend looking at the Terran Help Me thread too, it covers more things than in my post.
The most viable greed in TvP is going for a 2nd CC. Unless you are Bomber (Bomber vs Stork/Frost/Homestory Cup 9? - Bomber vs Super Game 3 / IEM San Jose), 3rd CC is not viable since u will die to all kinds of all ins.
The reason why we expand in TvP is not because we want to be greedy, we want to keep up with toss and be able to hold off allins. One base terran simply doesnt work, except 1-1-1 for a special toss style. But I agree with the zerg part and terran part
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On February 25 2015 05:26 SBGamer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2015 03:52 [PkF] Wire wrote: Yeah the overall skill level is really high lately. Greedy macro Terran is still very much possible. You should try and get some inspiration from pro KR builds. Notice that playing macro in TvT is not recommended though, it's much easier to play agressive builds (marine hellion elevator for instance should get you to high plat level quite quickly if you do it right). It is like telling golds to play gas first banshee. You will not improve except in executing the build. I know good plats who can hold of such attacks. If we take the gold guy as example, he will ask himself after he got to plat: ''Well, he hold off my attack, what do I do now?''. Before u get mid plat, u should play Reaper expand into 3 rax, so u always play a macro game and get an okay-ish idea of how to play macro TvT. Learning aggressive builds is great, but u should know how to win macro games if the attack fails I don't think this is bad advice. The attack will not finish the game so often that you won't be able to get a grasp of macro TvT. It's easier to be the agressor in mirror match-ups, I don't see the point of learning the game from the defender point of view since it's not recommended to take that defensive stance. In your example, if the attack is held, very well, you transition. Marine hellion elevator is agressive, not all-in. I'm not telling him to make the elevator in one place and attack the ramp with all his scvs
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On February 25 2015 03:48 ZeromuS wrote:Hey buddy. I'm hoping you are around. The thread technically isn't entirely up to par butyou clearly put effort in so I'll leave it open for now. Please upload some replays of your play so we can help you. Without them we can't do much. So upload 2 or 3 replays for a matchup you want to focus on and we can give you a hand I've updated the title of your OP to use a "help" tag [H] -- something you should keep in mind for the future is to tag your posts As to your main question about adjusting: I suggest looking at the Terran Help Me thread. There are some good general tips and answers to common questions in it. You can play a greedy style of Terran but it is a little different in HotS. I would recommend you open with reapers in TvP as it will help you scout. I dont play terran so I'm not 100% sure what i should recommend in TvZ and TvT - but reapers in TvT will help you scout and if you feel comfortable to respond and read your opponents build then reapers are always good. I believe learning a hellion opener for TvZ would allow you to outplay opponents as well but I'll let a Terran recommend a TvZ build specifically.
The ''best'' (in other words ''meta'') build is 3 CC Hellion which allows u to scout and react properly and get map control, and get a really good infrastructure for the midgame. The other builds are not recommended to learn unless you can execute 3 CC Hellion
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On February 25 2015 05:34 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2015 05:26 SBGamer wrote:On February 25 2015 03:52 [PkF] Wire wrote: Yeah the overall skill level is really high lately. Greedy macro Terran is still very much possible. You should try and get some inspiration from pro KR builds. Notice that playing macro in TvT is not recommended though, it's much easier to play agressive builds (marine hellion elevator for instance should get you to high plat level quite quickly if you do it right). It is like telling golds to play gas first banshee. You will not improve except in executing the build. I know good plats who can hold of such attacks. If we take the gold guy as example, he will ask himself after he got to plat: ''Well, he hold off my attack, what do I do now?''. Before u get mid plat, u should play Reaper expand into 3 rax, so u always play a macro game and get an okay-ish idea of how to play macro TvT. Learning aggressive builds is great, but u should know how to win macro games if the attack fails I don't think this is bad advice. The attack will not finish the game so often that you won't be able to get a grasp of macro TvT. It's easier to be the agressor in mirror match-ups, I don't see the point of learning the game from the defender point of view since it's not recommended to take that defensive stance. In your example, if the attack is held, very well, you transition. Marine hellion elevator is agressive, not all-in. I'm not telling him to make the elevator in one place and attack the ramp with all his scvs
He said he is in silver at the moment. Aggressive builds like hellion elevator or banshee will basically end the game before 9 minutes in silver-lowplat level. Trust me, I played gas first banshee my whole time in gold league, and i had LOTS of troubles in platinum league
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I've been playing WoL lately (since the map pools sucks quite bad atm, imo) and I can assure you that since there are faaaar more players on HotS that it's difficult to compare the leagues of both.
In WoL I play (with some effort and time invested in there) in master's league, where I'm only diamond in HotS or even plat.
Since you play Terran, you will quite quickly realize that Terran got a whole lot harder in HotS compared to WoL. So for the expansion you picked a tricky race, especially in regard of scouting (all matchups, but mostly TvP). If you want to master a bit more Terran in HotS you simply need to practise and get there. ;-)
Don't be discouraged by league placements etc. Doesn't mean a whole lot :-)
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