On March 04 2015 22:53 OtherWorld wrote:
FireCake vs ForGG says hi
edit : wrong quote, damn
FireCake vs ForGG says hi
edit : wrong quote, damn
Well, if ForGG was playing at his best then firecake would have been have destroyed much earlier.
Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy |
OMGIMNestea
Korea (South)17 Posts
On March 04 2015 22:53 OtherWorld wrote: Show nested quote + On March 04 2015 16:06 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: The real issue is, as always, you're bad. Your opponent is also bad(I'm bad too, there's nothing wrong with it...). Play better = no stalemate. It's that simple. Unless you're playing at the highest level of the game possible its ridiculous to make such arguments or claims that "spell casters lead to stalemates". If you had thirty times his supply and couldn't end the game that's on you. Your opponent was also being a douchebag. That doesn't mean the game needs to be changed. FireCake vs ForGG says hi edit : wrong quote, damn Well, if ForGG was playing at his best then firecake would have been have destroyed much earlier. | ||
neverrain
United States24 Posts
On March 04 2015 17:45 Gwavajuice wrote: ... seriously is it possible to simply answer the OP instead of polluting the thread with that kind of crappy comments? back on topic : Okay I watch the end of the replay (at 8x speed though) To me, 2 conditions are not met : - income generation : at some point he manages to land mules, but that s not the main point. - destroying building : automated turrets are buildings, he lands them (I do not think the game consider this as producing a unit) and you KILL THEM, so you're destroying a building (turrets are listed in the building panel) and thus reseting the stalemate timer (3 mins). You also destroy rax here and there, he destroys some pylons/extractors. All this reset the stalemate timer. That's why stalemate didn't occur imho. as long as some building are destroyed the games think one can win (your opponent could actually have won by destroying all you building with turrets) Maybe auto turrets shouldn't be considered buildings. If that is the case, this still presents a way to prolong a stalemate and allows a Terran to endlessly keep a game going that they have lost (as if floating buildings off the map wasn't bad enough. I need to rewatch the replay again at maybe 4x. I really wish it showed the stalemate message in the reply so I can watch the clock better. | ||
Gwavajuice
France1810 Posts
On March 05 2015 02:00 neverrain wrote: Show nested quote + On March 04 2015 17:45 Gwavajuice wrote: On March 04 2015 16:17 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: blahblahblah... ... seriously is it possible to simply answer the OP instead of polluting the thread with that kind of crappy comments? back on topic : Okay I watch the end of the replay (at 8x speed though) To me, 2 conditions are not met : - income generation : at some point he manages to land mules, but that s not the main point. - destroying building : automated turrets are buildings, he lands them (I do not think the game consider this as producing a unit) and you KILL THEM, so you're destroying a building (turrets are listed in the building panel) and thus reseting the stalemate timer (3 mins). You also destroy rax here and there, he destroys some pylons/extractors. All this reset the stalemate timer. That's why stalemate didn't occur imho. as long as some building are destroyed the games think one can win (your opponent could actually have won by destroying all you building with turrets) Maybe auto turrets shouldn't be considered buildings. If that is the case, this still presents a way to prolong a stalemate and allows a Terran to endlessly keep a game going that they have lost (as if floating buildings off the map wasn't bad enough. I need to rewatch the replay again at maybe 4x. I really wish it showed the stalemate message in the reply so I can watch the clock better. Tbh, without the heat of the battle, you would have found the way to get this stale mate : abandon all buildings that near the edge, maybe destroy them yourself to go faster. This would have forced the raven to move inside the map where you could have sniped him. He only could annoy you cause he could keep it out of your reach. Once raven is dead the stalemate is complete. | ||
Cascade
Australia5405 Posts
On March 05 2015 02:00 neverrain wrote: Show nested quote + On March 04 2015 17:45 Gwavajuice wrote: On March 04 2015 16:17 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: blahblahblah... ... seriously is it possible to simply answer the OP instead of polluting the thread with that kind of crappy comments? back on topic : Okay I watch the end of the replay (at 8x speed though) To me, 2 conditions are not met : - income generation : at some point he manages to land mules, but that s not the main point. - destroying building : automated turrets are buildings, he lands them (I do not think the game consider this as producing a unit) and you KILL THEM, so you're destroying a building (turrets are listed in the building panel) and thus reseting the stalemate timer (3 mins). You also destroy rax here and there, he destroys some pylons/extractors. All this reset the stalemate timer. That's why stalemate didn't occur imho. as long as some building are destroyed the games think one can win (your opponent could actually have won by destroying all you building with turrets) Maybe auto turrets shouldn't be considered buildings. If that is the case, this still presents a way to prolong a stalemate and allows a Terran to endlessly keep a game going that they have lost (as if floating buildings off the map wasn't bad enough. I need to rewatch the replay again at maybe 4x. I really wish it showed the stalemate message in the reply so I can watch the clock better. You keep saying that the terran had lost the game, but a stalemate would have ended in a draw. If you can't kill his buildings, why has the terrain lost? | ||
Kazahk
United States385 Posts
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Lexender
Mexico2611 Posts
On March 05 2015 10:08 Kazahk wrote: Its sort of like asking how do I stop 30 ultras? You dont let the zerg get them in the first place. You didn't watch the replay did you? I really don't know what to tell you, I don't think there is a problem with ATT being buildings (this is so they benefit from building armor and hi-sec autotrack). You keep saying he didn't deserve the win and that he had lost, yet he killed all your nexus when he had barely any units at all. If the game got to that point it was your fault and nobody elses | ||
Pontius Pirate
United States1557 Posts
For the record, I don't think auto-turrets are a problem, despite my tone. If they were to be tweaked though, maybe I'd increase their footprint to 3x3, to make them a little less usable en masse. | ||
Cascade
Australia5405 Posts
The problem is: if spawning auto-turrets counts towards resetting the stalemate timer, it allows a terran to bunker up on one base (Taeja-style) and never trigger the stalemate countdown as long as you spawn an autoturret every now and then. This is clearly not working as blizzard intended. I am still not sure if spawn and/or destroying an auto-turret actually does reset the countdown, as the OP seems to be more focused on insisting that the terran had lost than actually checking whether the other stalemate conditions were met. The discussion on whether unit X is good for the game, or too easy to use, or killing E-SPORTS doesn't really feel relevant at all here. Except maybe killing E-SPORTS, that's always relevant ofc, but I haven't seen anyone bring that up yet. Ergo: real question is, does auto-turrets that reset stalemate times kill E-SPORTS? | ||
neverrain
United States24 Posts
On March 05 2015 14:56 Cascade wrote: Umm, I have no idea how everyone fail to address the actual problem, which is not a problem of balance, or boring games, and definitely not about SHs. The problem is: if spawning auto-turrets counts towards resetting the stalemate timer, it allows a terran to bunker up on one base (Taeja-style) and never trigger the stalemate countdown as long as you spawn an autoturret every now and then. This is clearly not working as blizzard intended. I am still not sure if spawn and/or destroying an auto-turret actually does reset the countdown, as the OP seems to be more focused on insisting that the terran had lost than actually checking whether the other stalemate conditions were met. The discussion on whether unit X is good for the game, or too easy to use, or killing E-SPORTS doesn't really feel relevant at all here. Except maybe killing E-SPORTS, that's always relevant ofc, but I haven't seen anyone bring that up yet. Ergo: real question is, does auto-turrets that reset stalemate times kill E-SPORTS? I think the problem is people simply aren't reading properly. I honestly don't care who won the game. I'm not an idiot. I know I "lost" the game in the sense of I left because I had other things to do. The point is irrelevant. The point of this post was to point out (and yes I watched the replay several times), is that auto turrets appear to be prolonging stalemate conditions, which I think is mis-balanced in the sense of what a stalemate defines. In my mind, a stalemate is the result of neither player being able to end the game. The times he landed buildings and built a single unit was me being afk (physically away from my desk). There were several instances where I was at my desk, preventing buildings from landing, where he only got an auto turret off for 10 minutes of game time. This time period is more than sufficient to trigger a stalemate timer and let that timer run. As far as I am aware, Terran is the only race that can create buildings based off energy, which persistently recharges. In this sense, this is a misbalance of the game. I understand that they may be "considered" buildings so they can receive the engineering bay upgrade, but counting them as a building, which is an instant cast spell, shouldn't be considered a building in the sense of the word, especially since they aren't permanent. EDIT - I'd also like to point out, that during the game, the Terran said (direct quote), "i can end the stalemate all night long baby". He was aware of what he was doing. | ||
Cascade
Australia5405 Posts
On March 05 2015 16:35 neverrain wrote: There were several instances where I was at my desk, preventing buildings from landing, where he only got an auto turret off for 10 minutes of game time. This time period is more than sufficient to trigger a stalemate timer and let that timer run. I think this is your main point that you should push harder. I'd recommend you post the replay on the bnet forums, point out which are the 10-min intervals (or anything above 6 mins should be enough) where nothing triggered the stalemate conditions except the auto-turrets, so people can confirm. Then ask Blizzard to fix it. | ||
neverrain
United States24 Posts
On March 05 2015 16:58 Cascade wrote: Show nested quote + On March 05 2015 16:35 neverrain wrote: There were several instances where I was at my desk, preventing buildings from landing, where he only got an auto turret off for 10 minutes of game time. This time period is more than sufficient to trigger a stalemate timer and let that timer run. I think this is your main point that you should push harder. I'd recommend you post the replay on the bnet forums, point out which are the 10-min intervals (or anything above 6 mins should be enough) where nothing triggered the stalemate conditions except the auto-turrets, so people can confirm. Then ask Blizzard to fix it. I made a post on the bug forum on bnet, but have yet to get a response. I may just post it to general and let them have a run at it. | ||
Cascade
Australia5405 Posts
On March 05 2015 17:05 neverrain wrote: Show nested quote + On March 05 2015 16:58 Cascade wrote: On March 05 2015 16:35 neverrain wrote: There were several instances where I was at my desk, preventing buildings from landing, where he only got an auto turret off for 10 minutes of game time. This time period is more than sufficient to trigger a stalemate timer and let that timer run. I think this is your main point that you should push harder. I'd recommend you post the replay on the bnet forums, point out which are the 10-min intervals (or anything above 6 mins should be enough) where nothing triggered the stalemate conditions except the auto-turrets, so people can confirm. Then ask Blizzard to fix it. I made a post on the bug forum on bnet, but have yet to get a response. I may just post it to general and let them have a run at it. Bug forum as in the Zerg subforum? | ||
Gwavajuice
France1810 Posts
On March 05 2015 16:35 neverrain wrote: Show nested quote + On March 05 2015 14:56 Cascade wrote: Umm, I have no idea how everyone fail to address the actual problem, which is not a problem of balance, or boring games, and definitely not about SHs. The problem is: if spawning auto-turrets counts towards resetting the stalemate timer, it allows a terran to bunker up on one base (Taeja-style) and never trigger the stalemate countdown as long as you spawn an autoturret every now and then. This is clearly not working as blizzard intended. I am still not sure if spawn and/or destroying an auto-turret actually does reset the countdown, as the OP seems to be more focused on insisting that the terran had lost than actually checking whether the other stalemate conditions were met. The discussion on whether unit X is good for the game, or too easy to use, or killing E-SPORTS doesn't really feel relevant at all here. Except maybe killing E-SPORTS, that's always relevant ofc, but I haven't seen anyone bring that up yet. Ergo: real question is, does auto-turrets that reset stalemate times kill E-SPORTS? I think the problem is people simply aren't reading properly. I honestly don't care who won the game. I'm not an idiot. I know I "lost" the game in the sense of I left because I had other things to do. The point is irrelevant. The point of this post was to point out (and yes I watched the replay several times), is that auto turrets appear to be prolonging stalemate conditions, which I think is mis-balanced in the sense of what a stalemate defines. In my mind, a stalemate is the result of neither player being able to end the game. The times he landed buildings and built a single unit was me being afk (physically away from my desk). There were several instances where I was at my desk, preventing buildings from landing, where he only got an auto turret off for 10 minutes of game time. This time period is more than sufficient to trigger a stalemate timer and let that timer run. As far as I am aware, Terran is the only race that can create buildings based off energy, which persistently recharges. In this sense, this is a misbalance of the game. I understand that they may be "considered" buildings so they can receive the engineering bay upgrade, but counting them as a building, which is an instant cast spell, shouldn't be considered a building in the sense of the word, especially since they aren't permanent. EDIT - I'd also like to point out, that during the game, the Terran said (direct quote), "i can end the stalemate all night long baby". He was aware of what he was doing. Okay I had to do the test, landing a turret is actually considered as constructing a building and does rest the stalemate timer. But, changing the autoturrets' nature wouldn't change the matter because landing mules reset the timer too, if turrets were units landing them would also reset the timer. (So technically zerg can abuse this too - too bad the can't fly buildings ) If you take a closer look at this, it makes sense, because yes you had no hope of ever winning that game, but this terran guy could have (and he did in the end by boring you to death ) Technically, he was able to kill buidlings, he was able to produce units and scvs game was not over for him as much as it was for you. There was a narrow way for him to actually win this game, it's logic the game doesn't automatically prevent him from doing so.... PS : never ever there is 10 minutes in your game where nothing happens, the timer is not bugged | ||
neverrain
United States24 Posts
Hi cOOk, thanks for the report. We actually DO have a bug report about this, unfortunately it's a more subtle issue that will require a bit of work. We are aware of this, however, and should hopefully have a fix in a future patch. Thanks, - Zobrek | ||
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