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Hey guys.
So im playing a lot of TvT lately and basically every game now its mass reaper opening.
From 3~4 hax opening, to proxy, to reaper bunker pressure and the list go on.
The MU right now its really boring, because im forced to do reaper opening or gas first hellion and play hyper defensive.
One grenade can swing the fight for either side, so its pretty random sometimes.
And playing TvZ, mass reaper its also pretty damn strong, im getting a lot of free wins.
What you guys think about this?
BTW, the build is something like this:
14 depot 15 hax 15 gas add second and third hax ASAP without stopping SCV production second gas around the third hax timing Add OC when you float minerals Expand when you float minerals
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Mass reaper IS strong in TvZ but it's not broken from what I can tell. If Zerg goes hatch first, they can get a Warren in time so it's defensible.
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Blade has had great success with speed openings -> baneling bust as a reaction against triple rax reaper pressures.
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what is a hax? havent had any trouble defending any sort of reaper pressure as Z make another queen and get speed
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On November 21 2015 09:35 arb wrote: what is a hax? havent had any trouble defending any sort of reaper pressure as Z make another queen and get speed I think 15 hax is the map hack.
second and third hax are probably some micro hack for controlling reaper, and a macro hack for constant SCV and mules.
Sounds like a pretty solid build all in all.
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This OP contains a triple-hax. I call troll.
Reaper openings are extremely strong in TvT. Less so in TvZ. Even more so in TvP. Strong, but not broken. The reaper is only relevant for like, two game-minutes.
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As someone who used proxy 3rax reaper as described in OP in beta a lot (although now when I 3rax I just do it in base and spread the rax around so a scouting scv might not spot them all, it's slower hitting and reinforcing but still strong and transitions better) in TvT, it feels like a free win if it goes unscouted. Spotting it or at least expecting it from scouting nothing in their main is the biggest part, bunker placement and micro around the reapers/grenades is pretty big too. If you can hold off and not die while teching to a tank/tank drop you're usually in good shape to do huge counter dmg, and if you got an early cc up you should be in a good spot economically.
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On November 20 2015 23:50 Wein wrote: The MU right now its really boring, because im forced to do reaper opening or gas first hellion and play hyper defensive.
Both Bio an Mech are viable in TvT.
On November 20 2015 23:50 Wein wrote: One grenade can swing the fight for either side, so its pretty random sometimes.
The winner of early TvT Reaper engagements is who lands the better skill shot.
On November 20 2015 23:50 Wein wrote: And playing TvZ, mass reaper its also pretty damn strong, im getting a lot of free wins.
Bio is also viable against Zerg.
I think these are all good things.
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On November 24 2015 23:34 meadbert wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2015 23:50 Wein wrote: The MU right now its really boring, because im forced to do reaper opening or gas first hellion and play hyper defensive.
Both Bio an Mech are viable in TvT. Show nested quote +On November 20 2015 23:50 Wein wrote: One grenade can swing the fight for either side, so its pretty random sometimes.
The winner of early TvT Reaper engagements is who lands the better skill shot. Show nested quote +On November 20 2015 23:50 Wein wrote: And playing TvZ, mass reaper its also pretty damn strong, im getting a lot of free wins.
Bio is also viable against Zerg. I think these are all good things.
What we (Archon Team) call the "Reaper Mini-Game" is extremely fun in TvT. Whether it's one reaper, a few, or a reaper and some other units. These tiny micro engagements are interesting, fun, and rarely swing the game too far. Proxy Reaper all-ins are difficult to hold if unscouted, or if you tech'd or expanded too fast.
RE: TvZ - With Roaches and Ravagers at their current strength, the reaper / helion opening is playing with fire. Open mass Reaper vs. Zerg and just watch the Roaches stream across the map and kill while mass queen and one reach holds your reapers at home. But, I mean ... Ravagers just feels so fucking OP it's crazy.
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On November 21 2015 11:21 TimeSpiral wrote: Reaper openings are extremely strong in TvT. Less so in TvZ. Even more so in TvP. Strong, but not broken. The reaper is only relevant for like, two game-minutes.
I'm a Zerg and having huge problems with mass reaper, my guess is that you are Terran so I'm hoping you know a good counter. What do you suggest is the best reaction for a Zerg against that strategy? I've found that even a good amount of roaches just doesnt get close enough to kill reapers once they reach a critical mass and can constantly throw grenades.
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On November 25 2015 00:31 jackacea wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2015 11:21 TimeSpiral wrote: Reaper openings are extremely strong in TvT. Less so in TvZ. Even more so in TvP. Strong, but not broken. The reaper is only relevant for like, two game-minutes. I'm a Zerg and having huge problems with mass reaper, my guess is that you are Terran so I'm hoping you know a good counter. What do you suggest is the best reaction for a Zerg against that strategy? I've found that even a good amount of roaches just doesnt get close enough to kill reapers once they reach a critical mass and can constantly throw grenades.
Open Roach. Morph Ravagers. This basically owns a Reaper opening. You can zone them out with corrosive bile. It takes utterly perfect micro to not get hit by Roaches on creep, and Ravager's basic attack outranges reapers. As soon as you push out the reapers, if they built a bunch of reapers, move acorss the maps with Roaches and Ravagers and win the game, because they probably won't have enough tech to hold you off (namely, banshees).
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On November 25 2015 01:13 TimeSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2015 00:31 jackacea wrote:On November 21 2015 11:21 TimeSpiral wrote: Reaper openings are extremely strong in TvT. Less so in TvZ. Even more so in TvP. Strong, but not broken. The reaper is only relevant for like, two game-minutes. I'm a Zerg and having huge problems with mass reaper, my guess is that you are Terran so I'm hoping you know a good counter. What do you suggest is the best reaction for a Zerg against that strategy? I've found that even a good amount of roaches just doesnt get close enough to kill reapers once they reach a critical mass and can constantly throw grenades. Open Roach. Morph Ravagers. This basically owns a Reaper opening. You can zone them out with corrosive bile. It takes utterly perfect micro to not get hit by Roaches on creep, and Ravager's basic attack outranges reapers. As soon as you push out the reapers, if they built a bunch of reapers, move acorss the maps with Roaches and Ravagers and win the game, because they probably won't have enough tech to hold you off (namely, banshees).
Thanks for the advice, I will try this out on ladder.
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One rax in the main 2 right by the third on tons of maps got me lots of strong wins vs zerg
That one map with the ramp being wallable by a single depot and the rax lends itself to this all in quite nicely I just send out my proxy rax scvs right as soon as the depot finishes
If you are clutch enough with the repaer grenade small groups of roaches aren't actually that annoying then you get into a critical mass of reapers and the roaches get picked off or naded to death
I lost games where they had mass queens really fast like probably gasless or when I lost a reaper for like nothing Ilost to people who danced and distracted with the queen while building up a sufficient amount of speedlings to break it without having to engage again( the constant grenades are too strong once you get like 6-10 reapers then you kill his lings and queens and even roaches for very little cost on your side of things
But the goal is to kill drones/ a queen or the firstwaves of lings while getting a bunker or two down outside the natural
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I hate the reaper in TvT as it stands. You basically have to reaper or die and if you miscontrol and lose a reaper early it is almost game ending damage.
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On November 25 2015 00:31 jackacea wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2015 11:21 TimeSpiral wrote: Reaper openings are extremely strong in TvT. Less so in TvZ. Even more so in TvP. Strong, but not broken. The reaper is only relevant for like, two game-minutes. I'm a Zerg and having huge problems with mass reaper, my guess is that you are Terran so I'm hoping you know a good counter. What do you suggest is the best reaction for a Zerg against that strategy? I've found that even a good amount of roaches just doesnt get close enough to kill reapers once they reach a critical mass and can constantly throw grenades.
Speedlings are the best counter. I have only lost to this strategy once out of the many, many times I have faced it (due to my own mess up).
The best way is to keep as many lings alive as possible (while waiting for speed). Once speed finishes you want to split your lings so that when he pushes into the drone line, you can flank them with the other lings that he shouldn't know where they are (and won't matter as he's so far in to just jump down a cliff). After this you can proceed to Baneling bust and win or macro.
Keep an eye out today, I am almost done with my zvt guide that goes into detail on this and has replays to boot .
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I personally hate the reaper grenade because it is only useful the first 2 min of the game in all-ins vs T/Z. Why is there an ability in the game that is literally only used in 2 build orders in the game?
I really hope blizzard will look to make the reaper ability something you can put on buildings for mega damage later on in the game instead of the current bs gimmick that it is.
Imagine reapers having an upgrade to gain 3 explosive charges that they can put on buildings to do massive damage. I can see myself and other players building a group of 4-6 reapers mid/late game to go harrass with which would be amazing for gameplay.
The reaper would still suck because of it's damage, but it would have a purpose past the first few minutes of the game, and wouldn't be imbalanced early on since the explosive charge would be an upgrade with factory prereq.
Just a thought/idea :D
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On November 20 2015 23:50 Wein wrote: Hey guys.
So im playing a lot of TvT lately and basically every game now its mass reaper opening.
From 3~4 hax opening, to proxy, to reaper bunker pressure and the list go on.
The MU right now its really boring, because im forced to do reaper opening or gas first hellion and play hyper defensive.
One grenade can swing the fight for either side, so its pretty random sometimes.
And playing TvZ, mass reaper its also pretty damn strong, im getting a lot of free wins.
What you guys think about this?
BTW, the build is something like this:
14 depot 15 hax 15 gas add second and third hax ASAP without stopping SCV production second gas around the third hax timing Add OC when you float minerals Expand when you float minerals I rarely see mass reaper opening TvT. If they build a couple marines to fake something else, I lose. Otherwise it isn't the worst micro battle to fight (on most fights). If they're going to put all their hopes on that continuing attack, I'm fine playing hyper defensive for many minutes.
Zerg's fine. I see all the Koreans defend with speedling queen. Several counterattack with banes for a win.
Maybe I haven't seen enough "good" terrans execute it well yet. We're nearing the first LOTV premier and I'll see if teamhouses consider it good enough cheese to make it to a tourney BoX setting.
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No, it's not OP, it is called a Build Order win, your opponent responding incorrectly due to not scouting or incorrect reactions, or potentially being outplayed.
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On November 21 2015 10:36 Cascade wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2015 09:35 arb wrote: what is a hax? havent had any trouble defending any sort of reaper pressure as Z make another queen and get speed I think 15 hax is the map hack. second and third hax are probably some micro hack for controlling reaper, and a macro hack for constant SCV and mules. Sounds like a pretty solid build all in all.
And here I was, turning on my hax way too late. No wonder I was losing so much.
On November 25 2015 08:46 avilo wrote: I really hope blizzard will look to make the reaper ability something you can put on buildings for mega damage later on in the game instead of the current bs gimmick that it is.
Imagine reapers having an upgrade to gain 3 explosive charges that they can put on buildings to do massive damage. I can see myself and other players building a group of 4-6 reapers mid/late game to go harrass with which would be amazing for gameplay.
The reaper would still suck because of it's damage, but it would have a purpose past the first few minutes of the game, and wouldn't be imbalanced early on since the explosive charge would be an upgrade with factory prereq.
Just a thought/idea :D
That is a really good idea. If not that, even giving them back grenades vs building and increasing the damage of that would work too. Just any late game anti-building upgrade would work, but planting explosive charges is best.
On November 25 2015 02:33 Tenks wrote: I hate the reaper in TvT as it stands. You basically have to reaper or die and if you miscontrol and lose a reaper early it is almost game ending damage.
Balancing the game on a knife edge seems to be Blizzard's thing these days. I feel the same way with Disruptor versus Disruptor in PvP. You can do everything better than your opponent, but one mistake, one big Disruptor hit, and gg.
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