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VOD of game with commentary - Lotv TvZ #3 Polt vs Leenock "Bio Mine to deal with Zerg hive"
Given the relatively cheap cost, can widow mines be an effective means of dealing with ultralisks?
Are there any things you can do to allow widow mines to connect on the ultralisks more effectively?
If the zerg adds in more infestors/vipers into the mix, will a larger widow minefield keep you alive against a zerg assault?
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I remember watching this game live, I'll watch the video after DH and give my thoughts but at the time I remember thinking Leenock's biggest mistake was not having anything reliable to deal with Medivacs, iirc he tried to use vipers but they didn't work very well. So Polt just dropped everywhere and wrecked Leenock's economy even while trading inefficiently with his army. Leenock also played roach / hydra / ultra rather than ling / bling / ultra, making is even harder to deal with drops, reducing the AoE capabilities of his army and having worse upgrades for the ultras.
Thanks for the video, really appreciate all your work to help us Terran players out!
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I feel like it seems really supply inefficient. Like, even if you had the APM to make sure your mines always hit exactly the things you want them to hit and never die before they can shoot for whatever reason, it takes 8 supply of widow mine to one-shot an ultra. In a full engage, to counter 8 ultras, that'd be a ton of mines. And that supply won't contribute again until after the engagement. So I don't really see this ever being the optimal way.
I can see it work sometimes but I don't think it's great.
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Yup. Making mines cost supply and "control themselves" was really stupid design IMO.
They should've been attached to the hellion with lower damage or without the ability to hit air, but then the SC2 design team would have to admit they added widow mines back.
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On November 29 2015 06:47 Elentos wrote: I feel like it seems really supply inefficient. Like, even if you had the APM to make sure your mines always hit exactly the things you want them to hit and never die before they can shoot for whatever reason, it takes 8 supply of widow mine to one-shot an ultra. In a full engage, to counter 8 ultras, that'd be a ton of mines. And that supply won't contribute again until after the engagement. So I don't really see this ever being the optimal way.
I can see it work sometimes but I don't think it's great. counter point to that, Polt limited Leenock's economy so that there wouldn't be another big engagement like that.
Also the widow mines don't need to 1 shot an ultra, just soften it up for the bio to pick the weak ultras off. The way that polt spreads his widow mines out, his bio force can pick off any units that try to trigger the widow mines which forces the zerg player to commit larger amounts of army to trigger a widow mine shot which is more gauranteed splash if they want to engage through a minefield
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On November 29 2015 07:01 EJK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2015 06:47 Elentos wrote: I feel like it seems really supply inefficient. Like, even if you had the APM to make sure your mines always hit exactly the things you want them to hit and never die before they can shoot for whatever reason, it takes 8 supply of widow mine to one-shot an ultra. In a full engage, to counter 8 ultras, that'd be a ton of mines. And that supply won't contribute again until after the engagement. So I don't really see this ever being the optimal way.
I can see it work sometimes but I don't think it's great. counter point to that, Polt limited Leenock's economy so that there wouldn't be another big engagement like that. Also the widow mines don't need to 1 shot an ultra, just soften it up for the bio to pick the weak ultras off. The way that polt spreads his widow mines out, his bio force can pick off any units that try to trigger the widow mines which forces the zerg player to commit larger amounts of army to trigger a widow mine shot which is more gauranteed splash if they want to engage through a minefield You still need more than 1 hit to really soften up the 8-armor ultra enough though I think. Even marauders do low damage to them. If you hit zerglings, even if it's 10 of them, that's kinda sad. Plus what if you can't limit the economy enough? What if it's a ling/bane/corruptor style that shuts down drops or Nerchio's great ling/ravager/infestor style over a roach/hydra style?
As I said, I think it can work, but I don't think you can really rely on it to work every time.
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On November 29 2015 07:11 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2015 07:01 EJK wrote:On November 29 2015 06:47 Elentos wrote: I feel like it seems really supply inefficient. Like, even if you had the APM to make sure your mines always hit exactly the things you want them to hit and never die before they can shoot for whatever reason, it takes 8 supply of widow mine to one-shot an ultra. In a full engage, to counter 8 ultras, that'd be a ton of mines. And that supply won't contribute again until after the engagement. So I don't really see this ever being the optimal way.
I can see it work sometimes but I don't think it's great. counter point to that, Polt limited Leenock's economy so that there wouldn't be another big engagement like that. Also the widow mines don't need to 1 shot an ultra, just soften it up for the bio to pick the weak ultras off. The way that polt spreads his widow mines out, his bio force can pick off any units that try to trigger the widow mines which forces the zerg player to commit larger amounts of army to trigger a widow mine shot which is more gauranteed splash if they want to engage through a minefield You still need more than 1 hit to really soften up the 8-armor ultra enough though I think. Even marauders do low damage to them. If you hit zerglings, even if it's 10 of them, that's kinda sad. Plus what if you can't limit the economy enough? What if it's a ling/bane/corruptor style that shuts down drops or Nerchio's great ling/ravager/infestor style over a roach/hydra style? As I said, I think it can work, but I don't think you can really rely on it to work every time. One big aspect of polt's bio play is that he rarely does 'drops'. Instead what is happening is he has groups of army units in multiple positions. You rarely see him go for a straight up speed boost drop into a base, instead the dropships move the units around the map and he pokes at various times but always has an exit strategy to not lose those units
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On November 29 2015 08:06 EJK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2015 07:11 Elentos wrote:On November 29 2015 07:01 EJK wrote:On November 29 2015 06:47 Elentos wrote: I feel like it seems really supply inefficient. Like, even if you had the APM to make sure your mines always hit exactly the things you want them to hit and never die before they can shoot for whatever reason, it takes 8 supply of widow mine to one-shot an ultra. In a full engage, to counter 8 ultras, that'd be a ton of mines. And that supply won't contribute again until after the engagement. So I don't really see this ever being the optimal way.
I can see it work sometimes but I don't think it's great. counter point to that, Polt limited Leenock's economy so that there wouldn't be another big engagement like that. Also the widow mines don't need to 1 shot an ultra, just soften it up for the bio to pick the weak ultras off. The way that polt spreads his widow mines out, his bio force can pick off any units that try to trigger the widow mines which forces the zerg player to commit larger amounts of army to trigger a widow mine shot which is more gauranteed splash if they want to engage through a minefield You still need more than 1 hit to really soften up the 8-armor ultra enough though I think. Even marauders do low damage to them. If you hit zerglings, even if it's 10 of them, that's kinda sad. Plus what if you can't limit the economy enough? What if it's a ling/bane/corruptor style that shuts down drops or Nerchio's great ling/ravager/infestor style over a roach/hydra style? As I said, I think it can work, but I don't think you can really rely on it to work every time. One big aspect of polt's bio play is that he rarely does 'drops'. Instead what is happening is he has groups of army units in multiple positions. You rarely see him go for a straight up speed boost drop into a base, instead the dropships move the units around the map and he pokes at various times but always has an exit strategy to not lose those units Well firstly I don't think it's easy to play like Polt. But more importantly, I think my point is kinda still relevant. I think there are better compositions than roach/hydra to make sure your economy is mostly untouched. I'd like to see an example where he plays against a more mobile comp.
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On November 29 2015 08:22 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2015 08:06 EJK wrote:On November 29 2015 07:11 Elentos wrote:On November 29 2015 07:01 EJK wrote:On November 29 2015 06:47 Elentos wrote: I feel like it seems really supply inefficient. Like, even if you had the APM to make sure your mines always hit exactly the things you want them to hit and never die before they can shoot for whatever reason, it takes 8 supply of widow mine to one-shot an ultra. In a full engage, to counter 8 ultras, that'd be a ton of mines. And that supply won't contribute again until after the engagement. So I don't really see this ever being the optimal way.
I can see it work sometimes but I don't think it's great. counter point to that, Polt limited Leenock's economy so that there wouldn't be another big engagement like that. Also the widow mines don't need to 1 shot an ultra, just soften it up for the bio to pick the weak ultras off. The way that polt spreads his widow mines out, his bio force can pick off any units that try to trigger the widow mines which forces the zerg player to commit larger amounts of army to trigger a widow mine shot which is more gauranteed splash if they want to engage through a minefield You still need more than 1 hit to really soften up the 8-armor ultra enough though I think. Even marauders do low damage to them. If you hit zerglings, even if it's 10 of them, that's kinda sad. Plus what if you can't limit the economy enough? What if it's a ling/bane/corruptor style that shuts down drops or Nerchio's great ling/ravager/infestor style over a roach/hydra style? As I said, I think it can work, but I don't think you can really rely on it to work every time. One big aspect of polt's bio play is that he rarely does 'drops'. Instead what is happening is he has groups of army units in multiple positions. You rarely see him go for a straight up speed boost drop into a base, instead the dropships move the units around the map and he pokes at various times but always has an exit strategy to not lose those units Well firstly I don't think it's easy to play like Polt. But more importantly, I think my point is kinda still relevant. I think there are better compositions than roach/hydra to make sure your economy is mostly untouched. I'd like to see an example where he plays against a more mobile comp. You're point is just as valid as my point. thats the beauty of starcraft, theres not one right answer
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This seems very reliant on getting the upper hand in army movement and positioning. If zerg doesn't' allow you the initiative, and plays more in-your-face with roach-ravager or something similar, or just thwarts your Polt-esque efforts in some other way, then I don't think this would work too well. It might similarly have more difficulty on a map without a single central corridor. What Polt is doing is monitoring and prodding down the sides of the map to ensure that Leenock must move through the center, which allows him to set up a nice minefield and a good defensive position, but it's harder to do this if you don't have near-complete map control, as Polt did.
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On November 29 2015 09:05 PinheadXXXXXX wrote: This seems very reliant on getting the upper hand in army movement and positioning. If zerg doesn't' allow you the initiative, and plays more in-your-face with roach-ravager or something similar, or just thwarts your Polt-esque efforts in some other way, then I don't think this would work too well. It might similarly have more difficulty on a map without a single central corridor. What Polt is doing is monitoring and prodding down the sides of the map to ensure that Leenock must move through the center, which allows him to set up a nice minefield and a good defensive position, but it's harder to do this if you don't have near-complete map control, as Polt did. It is very reliant on getting the upper hand in army movement and positioning. In fact, that is what Polt bases his playstyle in every matchup off of. For someone like Polt, he would simply adapt this style and tweak small aspects of it to accomodate different unit compositions and maps, but he will always look for army movement and positioning advantages and try to make them if there aren't any
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On November 29 2015 09:18 EJK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2015 09:05 PinheadXXXXXX wrote: This seems very reliant on getting the upper hand in army movement and positioning. If zerg doesn't' allow you the initiative, and plays more in-your-face with roach-ravager or something similar, or just thwarts your Polt-esque efforts in some other way, then I don't think this would work too well. It might similarly have more difficulty on a map without a single central corridor. What Polt is doing is monitoring and prodding down the sides of the map to ensure that Leenock must move through the center, which allows him to set up a nice minefield and a good defensive position, but it's harder to do this if you don't have near-complete map control, as Polt did. It is very reliant on getting the upper hand in army movement and positioning. In fact, that is what Polt bases his playstyle in every matchup off of. For someone like Polt, he would simply adapt this style and tweak small aspects of it to accomodate different unit compositions and maps, but he will always look for army movement and positioning advantages and try to make them if there aren't any I meant specifically the minefield. Polt won't and can't do it the same way on Ruins of Seras, for instance; there, he splits his army up more and counterattacks more often and plays more hatch-sniping then killing ultras with mines.
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Rewatching it doesn't seem like Polt was as far ahead as I originally thought, but I'd still be interested to see Leenock's supply and upgrades during this game. The last few fights were Polt was near maxed and Leenock had ultras out it felt like Polt just had a much bigger army than Leenock,
But Polt's bio did seem pretty effective against Ultras, certainly more than mine ever do. Whether this is a result of the widow mines or a severe upgrade disadvantage for Leenock I'd be interested to see though.
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On November 29 2015 11:41 Pursuit_ wrote: Rewatching it doesn't seem like Polt was as far ahead as I originally thought, but I'd still be interested to see Leenock's supply and upgrades during this game. The last few fights were Polt was near maxed and Leenock had ultras out it felt like Polt just had a much bigger army than Leenock,
But Polt's bio did seem pretty effective against Ultras, certainly more than mine ever do. Whether this is a result of the widow mines or a severe upgrade disadvantage for Leenock I'd be interested to see though. hmm I believe the ultralisks had chitinous plating, and isn't that all that matters?
On November 29 2015 10:37 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2015 09:18 EJK wrote:On November 29 2015 09:05 PinheadXXXXXX wrote: This seems very reliant on getting the upper hand in army movement and positioning. If zerg doesn't' allow you the initiative, and plays more in-your-face with roach-ravager or something similar, or just thwarts your Polt-esque efforts in some other way, then I don't think this would work too well. It might similarly have more difficulty on a map without a single central corridor. What Polt is doing is monitoring and prodding down the sides of the map to ensure that Leenock must move through the center, which allows him to set up a nice minefield and a good defensive position, but it's harder to do this if you don't have near-complete map control, as Polt did. It is very reliant on getting the upper hand in army movement and positioning. In fact, that is what Polt bases his playstyle in every matchup off of. For someone like Polt, he would simply adapt this style and tweak small aspects of it to accomodate different unit compositions and maps, but he will always look for army movement and positioning advantages and try to make them if there aren't any I meant specifically the minefield. Polt won't and can't do it the same way on Ruins of Seras, for instance; there, he splits his army up more and counterattacks more often and plays more hatch-sniping then killing ultras with mines. i agree
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On November 29 2015 11:54 EJK wrote: hmm I believe the ultralisks had chitinous plating, and isn't that all that matters?
Not really, lets use marines vs ultralisks as an example. with 0/0 upgrades on both sides, Ultralisks have 1 base armor and marines have 6 base damage, so marines do 5 damage / shot. with chitinous plating, Ultralisks go up to 5 armor and marines deal 1 damage / shot. For every upgrade advantage Terran has, they deal +1 damage / shot, so if Polt was on 3/3 to Leenocks 1/1 as an example they would be doing 3 damage instead of 1, a 300% damage increase.
For Mauraders, they start at 10x2 (or 20) damage per shot, 9x2 (18) after the Ultra's base armor. With chitinous plating that drops to 5x2 (10) damage per shot, and every point of upgrade advantage adds 2 damage / shot. Again, 3/3 to 1/1 as an example, mauraders would be doing 7x2 (14) damage per shot, a 140% increase.
Basically if you're up 2 upgrades, it's the same as playing vs HotS Ultras that do less damage but with a nerfed maurader.
So if you're up in upgrades it makes a huge difference. I think you can expect to be up 1 upgrade when Ultras first hit the field, but once they get up to 8 armor that's when they become bio killers.
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On November 30 2015 04:40 Pursuit_ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2015 11:54 EJK wrote: hmm I believe the ultralisks had chitinous plating, and isn't that all that matters? Not really, lets use marines vs ultralisks as an example. with 0/0 upgrades on both sides, Ultralisks have 1 base armor and marines have 6 base damage, so marines do 5 damage / shot. with chitinous plating, Ultralisks go up to 5 armor and marines deal 1 damage / shot. For every upgrade advantage Terran has, they deal +1 damage / shot, so if Polt was on 3/3 to Leenocks 1/1 as an example they would be doing 3 damage instead of 1, a 300% damage increase. For Mauraders, they start at 10x2 (or 20) damage per shot, 9x2 (18) after the Ultra's base armor. With chitinous plating that drops to 5x2 (10) damage per shot, and every point of upgrade advantage adds 2 damage / shot. Again, 3/3 to 1/1 as an example, mauraders would be doing 7x2 (14) damage per shot, a 140% increase. Basically if you're up 2 upgrades, it's the same as playing vs HotS Ultras that do less damage but with a nerfed maurader. So if you're up in upgrades it makes a huge difference. I think you can expect to be up 1 upgrade when Ultras first hit the field, but once they get up to 8 armor that's when they become bio killers. But if the upgrade advantage was 3-3 vs 1-1 but ultralisks have chtinous plating, that would make them extremely beefy to the point where the upgrade advantage does not cement a victory.
Also I think there will very rarely be instances where you are 3-3 compared to a zerg's 1-1. The only way I see that happening is you being very far ahead of the zerg player
I think though although your math is correct, you have to ask is a 300% and 140% damage increase significant? The number might have exponentially increased, but if it goes from 1 to 3 damage per shot on a 550 hp unit, at the end of the day I would argue that it is not a signifcant value AFTER chitinous plating chips in (even on 1-1 upgrades chitinous plating should make ultralisks bio killers)
Leaving us with the timng window of hitting the zerg player when they are transitioning to ultralisks with chitinous plating (timing attack with ultras out but before chitinous) the ideal window here I think. Each ultralisk that dies before chitinous plating becomes much harder to reproduce because of the economy changes in lotv
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On November 30 2015 08:22 EJK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2015 04:40 Pursuit_ wrote:On November 29 2015 11:54 EJK wrote: hmm I believe the ultralisks had chitinous plating, and isn't that all that matters? Not really, lets use marines vs ultralisks as an example. with 0/0 upgrades on both sides, Ultralisks have 1 base armor and marines have 6 base damage, so marines do 5 damage / shot. with chitinous plating, Ultralisks go up to 5 armor and marines deal 1 damage / shot. For every upgrade advantage Terran has, they deal +1 damage / shot, so if Polt was on 3/3 to Leenocks 1/1 as an example they would be doing 3 damage instead of 1, a 300% damage increase. For Mauraders, they start at 10x2 (or 20) damage per shot, 9x2 (18) after the Ultra's base armor. With chitinous plating that drops to 5x2 (10) damage per shot, and every point of upgrade advantage adds 2 damage / shot. Again, 3/3 to 1/1 as an example, mauraders would be doing 7x2 (14) damage per shot, a 140% increase. Basically if you're up 2 upgrades, it's the same as playing vs HotS Ultras that do less damage but with a nerfed maurader. So if you're up in upgrades it makes a huge difference. I think you can expect to be up 1 upgrade when Ultras first hit the field, but once they get up to 8 armor that's when they become bio killers. But if the upgrade advantage was 3-3 vs 1-1 but ultralisks have chtinous plating, that would make them extremely beefy to the point where the upgrade advantage does not cement a victory. Also I think there will very rarely be instances where you are 3-3 compared to a zerg's 1-1. The only way I see that happening is you being very far ahead of the zerg player I think though although your math is correct, you have to ask is a 300% and 140% damage increase significant? The number might have exponentially increased, but if it goes from 1 to 3 damage per shot on a 550 hp unit, at the end of the day I would argue that it is not a signifcant value AFTER chitinous plating chips in (even on 1-1 upgrades chitinous plating should make ultralisks bio killers) Leaving us with the timng window of hitting the zerg player when they are transitioning to ultralisks with chitinous plating (timing attack with ultras out but before chitinous) the ideal window here I think. Each ultralisk that dies before chitinous plating becomes much harder to reproduce because of the economy changes in lotv It's hard to say because of the marauder nerf, but 1/1 ultras with plating are on the same armor level as 3/3 ultras with plating used to be, and those actually died to 3/3 bio at a pretty reasonable speed. Or rather you could actually kill them. Unlike now.
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