The LotV Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 38
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Maxgy
United States3 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On July 25 2016 01:50 Weltall wrote: Is it just me or the meta shifted again in PvZ? Recently all my games versus zergs lasts less than 4 minutes, and I think PvZ early game is utterly broken. On 4 spawn maps it's very common to see 13 pool for ling rush: if protoss starts nexus first he is dead. Lings/blings drops are more common than ever, also when I scout a third base and I take my third too, Zergs do not drone that base but use it as macro hatchery to flood lings and deny my third base. And, least but not last, the roach ravager all in. The early game is a nightmare, even if you defend good, zerg most of time is not crippled nor behind. Stargate openings does not do so much harass damage due to queen+spores, adepts harass are easly countered by blings and even only lings (incredible how lings can counter their counter if manage to sorround them). I have always suffered pvz but with such aggressive builds every time it's autoloose. 1 ) I would like some new fresh builds instead of sg opening or adept harass opening. Is there any safe and viable build except from those? 2 ) Also, wich is the best way (if any) to punish a zerg that tried to all in me? 3 ) How to hold third base versus ling flood? I'm doing good simcity but lings poke natural and third base, after I used all my PO I just loose because i get overwhelmed (I take 3rd base at 3:20 usually, too early?) Yes, nexus first is a gamble. 1gate/gas fe on the other hand should be safe vs anything, so you can go for that if you want to play safer. I agree that it's really easy to lose stupidly in early game pvz, but it generally comes down to your execution rather than builds. You need to overcharge the right pylons at the right time, watch the minimap for drops, know their 3rd base timings to have an idea of when they could push, pull probes at the right time, etc etc. Regarding your questions: 1) there really aren't other solid openings. That said, both adept and stargate when executed correctly are perfectly fine builds, if you're struggling with them the issue isn't your build order choice. 2) In my experience, cheesy zergs resort to either lurkers or mutas after they dont kill you with their allin, because against both units it's really fucking easy to lose even if you're ahead if you fuck up. Personally i just go for a macro game when i defend an allin, it's where i feel most comfortable vs zerg and if i get to phoenix/immortal/templar there are few stupid ways to lose, assuming im the better macro player and/or im ahead after defending an allin. 3) Have an adept on hold position at you natural, warp in a sentry behind your wall if he's really committing with lings, overcharge properly, be ready to fully wall with extra buildings if he tries to bust your wall (which should never work vs overcharge). If you feel like you dont have enough overcharge, get your msc before any tech building. | ||
brickrd
United States4894 Posts
On July 26 2016 01:09 Maxgy wrote: Personally I 4 gate with mostly adepts in PvT, 4 gate with mostly stalkers in PvP, and carrier rush in PvZ. Anyone know any good protoss mech builds? It seems that blizz gave up on mech in LotV, but it would be fun to try. what do you mean by protoss mech? like going fast double robo or double stargate with few gateway units? i'm mid level as toss, but as i always understood it the problem with these styles is that you aren't able to take a fast third and defend it with tech units, which is why the cheesy turtle styles are usually a greedy third off of gateway and THEN your mass robo or stargate or whatever. it's too easy to out-expand or out-techswap a protoss who goes for a lot of fast tech | ||
[PkF] Wire
France24184 Posts
On July 27 2016 02:04 brickrd wrote: is there any way to play out of a double gas steal and not lose to either a faster expand or a one base warpgate allin executed by an equally good player? i offrace protoss on unranked ladder and do a lot of cheese, and i'm finding double gas steals are really strong against mid level players. am i essentially winning the game as soon as i steal both gases? what do you mean by protoss mech? like going fast double robo or double stargate with few gateway units? i'm mid level as toss, but as i always understood it the problem with these styles is that you aren't able to take a fast third and defend it with tech units, which is why the cheesy turtle styles are usually a greedy third off of gateway and THEN your mass robo or stargate or whatever. it's too easy to out-expand or out-techswap a protoss who goes for a lot of fast tech in PvP getting gas (even only one geyser honestly) stolen is usually a straight loss. If you're the stealer you just pylon block the nat after the gas steal if they try to expand and it's kinda checkmate. You can probably play it out if only one geyser got stolen (if two, you're dead, fortunately that can only happen on maps where the two geysers are next to each other which are not very common and you need to not be paying attention at all ; if one, chrono a zealot to get rid of the assim quick, then go 2 or 4 adepts to try to deal damage and scout) but you'll be behind on gas and if the other guy plays well he should be at an advantage. That being said gas steals aren't very common since it's really easy to keep them from happening and you need to send your probe very early, thus sacrificing economy, to have a chance to perform them. I usually scout right after gate and if I see a probe coming very early, that can only means two things : gas steal attempt or cannon rush, basically no one pylon scouts and if they do they sacrificed quite a lot of mins to do so. So just send a probe to follow that probe and move a probe on hold position near the geysers they come close to, normally you're taking those gasses quickly anyway (if you go for a standard double gas double gate). | ||
Weltall
Italy83 Posts
On July 26 2016 01:09 Maxgy wrote: and carrier rush in PvZ. im really interested in carrier rush build in pvz. Wich level do u play? if it's diamond or above, could u post some replays? or just the bo | ||
Aesto
44 Posts
Pretty much all of my losses in PvZ stem from Zergs doing Ling drops, Ling/Bling and Roach/Ravager attacks (often off an empty third, which makes them hard to identify), and when I defend them, they just contain me. Responding with an all-in from two bases usually doesn't work because I have no Robo for a Warp Prism. Ergo, making an army big enough to take a third is the best option. Then I have several problems: -I don't actually know immediately if they truly stopped the all-in, they might just be making more units. I can't scout with hallucinations because my sentries are still on low energy from defending. This delays me further. -The zerg is behind in economy until after about 1 minute after the all-in, then his drone count goes through the roof. -The early aggression delays the Robo and Forges and forces me into a unit composition that is weak against Lurkers. -If there are 30 lings on the map, Adept harass isn't really an option. -When defending, I occasionally lose some pylons/warpgates, which results in banking money/gas, which makes me fall further behind. -If I didn't go for a Stargate, it's difficult to know if they are taking a fourth, or just what they are doing in general. Any advice? I usually open Gateway, Nexus, two additional gates + Twilight (Glaives, then Blink) or Stargate (Oracle + Void Ray), although neither of those is truly better than the other at dealing with the problem. | ||
HelpMeGetBetter
United States759 Posts
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HelpMeGetBetter
United States759 Posts
On August 01 2016 05:15 Aesto wrote: In PvZ, how do you deal with a Zerg who goes for early game aggression, then backs down, sits outside your base with 30 lings, denying the Protoss' third until around 6 minutes, while teching to Lurkers? Pretty much all of my losses in PvZ stem from Zergs doing Ling drops, Ling/Bling and Roach/Ravager attacks (often off an empty third, which makes them hard to identify), and when I defend them, they just contain me. Responding with an all-in from two bases usually doesn't work because I have no Robo for a Warp Prism. Ergo, making an army big enough to take a third is the best option. Then I have several problems: -I don't actually know immediately if they truly stopped the all-in, they might just be making more units. I can't scout with hallucinations because my sentries are still on low energy from defending. This delays me further. -The zerg is behind in economy until after about 1 minute after the all-in, then his drone count goes through the roof. -The early aggression delays the Robo and Forges and forces me into a unit composition that is weak against Lurkers. -If there are 30 lings on the map, Adept harass isn't really an option. -When defending, I occasionally lose some pylons/warpgates, which results in banking money/gas, which makes me fall further behind. -If I didn't go for a Stargate, it's difficult to know if they are taking a fourth, or just what they are doing in general. Any advice? I usually open Gateway, Nexus, two additional gates + Twilight (Glaives, then Blink) or Stargate (Oracle + Void Ray), although neither of those is truly better than the other at dealing with the problem. I was doing a two-base all in, but that all depends on no early Zerg aggression. If I can survive the very early game, then I would either win or lose with the two base push. I don't see what the point is in trying to macro vs a zerg. I just dont get it. The 12 worker start favors them way too much. It boggles my mind (mainly a the pro level) how they ever lose a game. | ||
Dracover
Australia177 Posts
On August 01 2016 05:15 Aesto wrote: In PvZ, how do you deal with a Zerg who goes for early game aggression, then backs down, sits outside your base with 30 lings, denying the Protoss' third until around 6 minutes, while teching to Lurkers? Pretty much all of my losses in PvZ stem from Zergs doing Ling drops, Ling/Bling and Roach/Ravager attacks (often off an empty third, which makes them hard to identify), and when I defend them, they just contain me. Responding with an all-in from two bases usually doesn't work because I have no Robo for a Warp Prism. Ergo, making an army big enough to take a third is the best option. I usually go stargate openers and i find 2 choices work reasonably well for me. 1. Void ray. Build one void ray to push the lings and ravagers away. If they hand around you will get heaps for free kills. 2. Make 2 oracles. 2 oracles can kill a queen. In both cases the goal is to make them use resources on things other than economy. What they are hoping to do is contain you and then macro behind it. 1. However, if they keep units around against your void ray, they are giving you free kills (these units need to be replaced if they want to maintain the pressure. 2. if you can get kills on their queens or drones, each queen is 150 mineral and drones. They've used a lot of minerals and larvae on things to contain you so they are very limited. | ||
insitelol
845 Posts
On August 01 2016 15:18 Dracover wrote: 2. Make 2 oracles. 2 oracles can kill a queen. 1 oracle can kill a queen too. | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
Yes but the queen dies more slowly so she has more time to run to another queen, plus with two oracles you can micro the injuried one away so that they both have good amounts of hp left. If you go for it with just one oracle, you are left with so little hp all you can do is scout with it. Surprised to hear so many people struggling in pvz, it's still my best matchup. I just go 3gate stargate into either double robo immortal, a warp prism/adept timing, or adept/phoenix aggression (which is basically stay low tech, keep attacking and scream YOLO hoping the zerg fucks up, it works surprisingly well). I feel like the only times i lose is against early game cheese becuase i don't know how to scout or react correctly to all the dumb shit people do on ladder, or when i fuck up really badly. My MMR is still fairly low (4k ish) so i play terrible people, but i feel like what im doing is right and i could beat better players by executing better. That said, when i tried any kind of build that skips stargates i felt exactly like you guys are describing. The only way i could make glaive openings work was going double stargate behind it. | ||
las91
United States5080 Posts
On August 01 2016 20:04 Teoita wrote: Yes but the queen dies more slowly so she has more time to run to another queen, plus with two oracles you can micro the injuried one away so that they both have good amounts of hp left. If you go for it with just one oracle, you are left with so little hp all you can do is scout with it. Surprised to hear so many people struggling in pvz, it's still my best matchup. I just go 3gate stargate into either double robo immortal, a warp prism/adept timing, or adept/phoenix aggression (which is basically stay low tech, keep attacking and scream YOLO hoping the zerg fucks up, it works surprisingly well). I feel like the only times i lose is against early game cheese becuase i don't know how to scout or react correctly to all the dumb shit people do on ladder, or when i fuck up really badly. My MMR is still fairly low (4k ish) so i play terrible people, but i feel like what im doing is right and i could beat better players by executing better. That said, when i tried any kind of build that skips stargates i felt exactly like you guys are describing. The only way i could make glaive openings work was going double stargate behind it. How I understand the matchup is three styles 1. 4gate/double stargate + glaives while taking a 3rd and pressuring 2. fast 2 base allin (blink robo, tc/robo, etc.) 3. 3gate/single stargate early third transition into double robo I do have trouble in pvz mostly due to the random ling floods that happen anytime between 3 and 4 minutes which disrupt me taking a third or screw my economy. EDIT: I guess I should add the caveat that this is mostly from information farming Korean PvZ, it's probably different than EU/NA PvZ which I haven't looked at as much. | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
Also, you are forgetting all the glaive/3base opeinings that go into blink, but as i mentioned i kinda hate those because i dont like not having stargates vs Zerg, especially phoenixes. | ||
YenFu1
1 Post
14 Pylon 16 Gate 16 Gas (scout with worker after placing gas) @100% Gas, move 3 probes in 19 Nexus (Rally 18 supply probe to natural) - cut worker production - 19 cybercore - resume nonstop probe production - 21 Gas 21 Pylon @100% Cybercore, start WG research, adept, and SG @100% SG, start oracle @30-40% WG research, build pylon to start natural wall @100 Gas, start MS core @300 mins build 2 gateways at natural to wall in @400 mins start third nexus The build after this is more flexible and is followed by initially, a robo, and then a second robo along with robotics bay when the first robo finishes for double colossus production (stopping at 4-5 colossi and followed by mass immortal production afterwards) Constant scouting with oracle and hallucinated phoenix needs to be done to make sure there is no muta switch from the zerg. At around 140-150 supply, 2 more stargates and a fleet bacon can be built to start a tempest transition, usually forcing the zerg to do a massive attack with a midgame roach-hydra-lurker-ling based army (which could be easily held with well-placed stasis wards and patient play; waiting for the zerg to engage and exposing his lurkers). If such an attack is held, instead of moving out and fighting on creep and potentially throwing away your army, continue turtling up and eventually maxing out on an army of immortal-archon-tempest-colossus-mothership, which is an army most zerg armies cant even scratch 40 supply off of if you engage properly. The only way you can still lose at this point is mass crackling and ultra basetrade counterattack styles. After this, prepare yourself for some salty zerg tears. NOTE - I haven't been able to play high masters/GM players with this build yet so I'm not sure how viable it is at the higher levels. Replays https://sc2replaystats.com/replay/3216081 https://sc2replaystats.com/replay/3216082 https://sc2replaystats.com/replay/3216086 https://sc2replaystats.com/replay/3216085 | ||
gumballdead
United States22 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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Dracover
Australia177 Posts
Admittedly maybe that's why my win rate is low. | ||
ArtyK
France3142 Posts
On August 02 2016 16:24 Dracover wrote: Reading all this PvZ talk makes me think that everyone does some kind of timing against Z. Am I the only one who plays macro lol. Admittedly maybe that's why my win rate is low. Nah lategame protoss is the best in lotv right now. But not letting a zerg drone up safely to ~70 has been a thing since wol :D PvZ was my best matchup of all 9 (random) last season, without opening stargate. I went for chargelot archon immortals, then i switched to the current blink/sentry/immortal into disruptor style used by pros and it is now my worst matchup :D To be fair i didn't practice as much with it so i often forget to go disruptor fast enough and i die to lurkers. I'm definetly planning on going back to charge/archon/immo on a map like gettysburg because where the hell do you abuse force fields on this map unless the zerg lets you walk up into their third... Galactic and apotheosis forced me to go for another composition in blink/sentry though. As for dealing with mutas i generally just kill them if they try to. | ||
Weltall
Italy83 Posts
On August 01 2016 20:04 Teoita wrote: Yes but the queen dies more slowly so she has more time to run to another queen, plus with two oracles you can micro the injuried one away so that they both have good amounts of hp left. If you go for it with just one oracle, you are left with so little hp all you can do is scout with it. Surprised to hear so many people struggling in pvz, it's still my best matchup. I just go 3gate stargate into either double robo immortal, a warp prism/adept timing, or adept/phoenix aggression (which is basically stay low tech, keep attacking and scream YOLO hoping the zerg fucks up, it works surprisingly well). I feel like the only times i lose is against early game cheese becuase i don't know how to scout or react correctly to all the dumb shit people do on ladder, or when i fuck up really badly. My MMR is still fairly low (4k ish) so i play terrible people, but i feel like what im doing is right and i could beat better players by executing better. That said, when i tried any kind of build that skips stargates i felt exactly like you guys are describing. The only way i could make glaive openings work was going double stargate behind it. I found Phoenix plus adept pressure is really strong because it's like a new strategy: zergs expect from previus meta phoenix harass OR adept harass, not both. I have seen a replay with 8 adepts and 5-6 phoenix very early (6-7 min?), it was really devastating for zerg (in this replay there was also a proxy gate to keep warping adepts). Is your style something like this? Could you provide some detailed informations? I suppose u go sg into 3 gate, costantly build phoenix and adept then attack with a bounch of them and place third? For other guys who asked; lately I'm doing very well with dt drop into 3 base all in. It require some multitasking, but I'm winning lot of pvz with this. Basically I open TC, then dt shrine, then robo plus 3 more gate (4 total). Warp in 4 dts to his base at 5 min, try to micro them to do much damage as i can while i place a third base, extra gates, research charge and build immortals off 1 robo. I push few minutes later with 3 immortals, archons and chargezealots, it works really good if you did some damage. | ||
nath
United States1788 Posts
On August 01 2016 22:51 Teoita wrote: Sounds about right i guess; i do a very allin version of 1) where my third is super late and i have 5 gates behind it with a significant probe cut, 2) i don't really like anymore, 3) i have the adept timing/drop as well (basically you go twilight/forge as you take your third, cut probes at 46, get a robo and 7gates aiming to hit with a prism at around 7 minutes). I always get non stop adepts off my first gate to either pressure or defend my third, and i find that delaying it until after my first round of warpins if necessary is also effective in defending it. It's not perfect nor what a pro would do, but it tends to keep me alive and lets me take a third so that's nice. Also, you are forgetting all the glaive/3base opeinings that go into blink, but as i mentioned i kinda hate those because i dont like not having stargates vs Zerg, especially phoenixes. I've been having a lot more success with early third bases (into chargelot archon immortal, w/ or w/o stargate), your builds seem kinda weird tbh (the aggressive variants). also do you get gates 2+3 before 3rd when going '3 gate stargate'? | ||
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