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Image by VitoSs
For my comprehensive TvZ LoTV guide, click here
***Note*** Legacy of the Void is a young expansion. The optimal playstyles for all matchups are still being refined (my own included) and everybody's builds improve every day. This includes the sparce replays I can pull up for this guide; the playstyle may evolve based on the date of the game.
None of the images in this guide are meant to insult the opponents skill level or gameplay. Most opponents pictured here are very well mannered people and players who can just as easily give me a thrashing in the match up in a series.
Intro: Hello, I am Jakamakala, an infamous mid GM Terran (currently hovering around rank 40-70, but GM league is fucked up right now) who is known for his don't-give-a-shit attitude, carefree BM, and sometimes unique Clan Tags in game. This is a quick and short guide on my playstyle in TvP in low GM LoTV. It should help to get some people's feet off the ground if they are lost in the MU but do not consider it the authority on the MU.
My thoughts on TvP: I don't by any means consider TvP to be anywhere near balanced right now. I believe the combination of adepts and PO allow Protoss to be excessively greedy due to pylons' potency and adepts early game efficiency, and I believe there is no "standard macro build" that puts Terran in any decent position. Unlike HoTS, where Terran expanded faster and generally had more army supply of weaker units than Protoss, in LoTV, Protoss expands more quickly and generally has more quality units by the mid game (you may thank the early thirds, adepts, and disruptors). Terran has new tools in LoTV that allow them to fight Protoss in the late game with Liberators, however, this only works out if Terran can survive to the late game without losing all their workers or outright dying. Every game has an early game.
TvP in HoTS often saw Terran on the aggression, with plenty of tools to gnaw away at Protoss while Terran then decides to end the game with a powerful SCV pull or chooses to mass up dropships and go ham on the Protoss' expansions. LoTV sees Protoss with map control and more viable harass with ranged warp prisms, lowered opportunity cost for things like oracles, disruptor drops, and easy defense with spammable 30 damage Pylon Overcharges.
What does this mean? It means what I said before. I truly and honestly do not believe there is a solid way for Terran to play macro into the mid game while staying even aggressively AND economically with a Protoss player of equal skill.
What does this mean???? It means we shake things up and use styles that allow you to take the initiative!!!
Before we get started:
Map vetoes:
- I vetoed Central Protocol because PO rushes are extremely easy to pull off, and proxy oracles are impossible to scout. - I vetoed Lerilak Crest because I hate it for TvZ and I hate 4p maps. - It comes down between Ulrena and Ruins of Seras. I chose to veto Ruins of Seras because I hate 4p maps for TvT and TvP. Ulrena is actually great for one of the builds in this guide.
Camera Hotkeys:
This is Legacy of the Void, and you are a Terran player, a member of the official Hardest Race. If you are not using camera hotkeys, you are going to suffer 4 fold. This expansion is faster paced, with more expanding, harassment, and counter harassment than ever. You need to be able to zoom to each base accurately and quickly at the touch of a key every time you do macro management. What do you think this is, HoTS Protoss?
Hotkeys:
The same applies to hotkey management. If you are still relying on a select all army hotkey and are not responsibly rallying your forces, consider upping your mechanics before playing LoTV TvP. What do you think this is, HoTS Protoss?
There are two different "ladder builds" I currently use for TvP. I have a macro build I used to use as well, but I don't believe it is very strong, and will simply leave this simple replay here of a macro build:
http://ggtracker.com/matches/6274090
Style 1:
+ Show Spoiler +Proxy Reaper into 2 Base Heavy Aggression: This style focuses on knocking the Protoss off balance early, discouraging them from doing cheese and instead focusing on defending and being greedy after successfully defending, before hitting them with a sharp aggressive timing parade. This style is not without its weaknesses: - Soft usage of DTs that burn out your scans and wear down your forces - Players who are good at intercepting stray units with blink or Phoenix - A combination of mis micro on your end and superb defense from their's The opener: - 12 SCV - @5-7 seconds, take an SCV off the line and move it towards a proper proxy location. I like to do this build on Orbital Shipyard and Dusk Towers, and generally proxy like so: - 16 rax - 16 gas - 17 gas (with next 75 minerals, no cutting SCVs) - While your first reaper is queued up, start your factory at home @ 100 gas - Start 2nd reaper @50 gas - At @100% 2nd reaper, lift your barracks and take it home; Land the barracks on the tech lab from the factory (the factory will be done making the cyclone by then) Your first reaper will arrive in the Protoss base a good 10-15 seconds before they are generally ready for it. A scouting probe might hint them that something is up from the double gas but lack of barracks, but there's nothing Protoss can really do from this point to accelerate their defenses, as they generally open Gate - > Gas - > Nexus - > Core while getting the MsC out just in time to stop an in base reaper FE. - Use your grenades and focus down as many probes as you can. Even Mid GMs lose 2-3 initial probes, and sometimes have to pull for a little bit. Worse players I've faced have lost upwards of 7-8 probes total. - Pull your first reaper back when the MsC is done and beware of pylons. With the next 2 reapers I tend to either split them up to split the MsC attention, or bring them to the natural of the Protoss and focus down all the natural probes before attempting to get at least 1 reaper out of there (I generally get 1 out). The reaper arrives in the Protoss base well before good defenses are ready.With good control, even NA's top can't help losing 5 probes with reapers escaping.While the reapers are harassing, note your multi tasking with depots and infrastructure: - at 100% Factory, throw down a tech lab and your Starport - at 100% Tech Lab, start a cyclone. It finishes quickly enough that you are safe from Proxy Oracles, any adepts that counter push across the map, proxy PO, or MsC harass - You will start to float money here, so as your Starport is building, start your natural expansion around 3:20 - at 100% Starport, start your first Liberator This first Liberator can be used to harass or defend, depending on what your opponent is doing. My reapers sometimes see many gates dropping for retaliation, and a fat depot wall, the cyclone, and a liberator can quickly discourage most ground attacks. If the Protoss is trying to regreed up, use the Liberator to soft harass one of their mineral lines, minding Pylon placement while you macro up. Start 2 more barracks and an engineering bay for +1 attack. Land your barracks on the Factory's tech lab and start stim, followed up by Combat Shields and Concussive Shells. Start 2 gases at your natural when you have about 12-14 SCVs there. Do not forget non stop production. Cut SCVs when you hit 44. The next part of the build is not set in stone, but I generally follow it the same way each time I do it. I use the factory to make a reactor for my starport, then a reactor for itself. I eventually add barracks 4 and 5, and I cut Medivacs around 3-4. From there it is pure Bio Mine Liberator Production. Good, organized, and timely infrastructure to fuel your aggression.Once you have a decent bio count, move out with the Mines, Bio, Liberators, making sure your mineral lines are safe from Oracle Harass and the like and use the cyclone to lead the charge, scouting on ahead. This push out happens as early as 6:30-7:00, with the cyclone leading the way.Most Protoss opponents are trying to greed up their economy before a production explosion. This combined with your cheesy harass can give you a solid army advantage-based timing to punish and end the Protoss. There are a few ways you can take out the pylons. 1) Cyclone lock on and pick away one by one. 2) Siege Tank (I have had games where I made a siege tank after the cyclone to counter heavy adepts) 3) Push in with 6-8 stimmed rauders and beat down a pylon quickly before the MsC can spam PO. Rinse and repeat after healing. Set up your position in a fashion where your Liberators compromise important ground for the Protoss and mines cover the zones under the Libs so charge ins by high numbers of stalkers, adepts, or phoenix are heavy punished. Good coverage with your zoning units gives you a strong staging ground to push from.This Protoss took a 4:10 third, but his army is not well rounded yet. The Phoenix have no use in this uncomfortable situation.From here you work your way forward and kill the Protoss third, before slowly leapfrogging Liberators, Mines, and Bio positioning up their ramp. It's up to you whether to commit or not or play the hard contain game. I've chipped away at the Protoss infrastructure using zoning units until Protoss engages into my entrenched position and loses, and I've also lifted my main to my third (or even built a brand new CC) to sustain my income while Protoss's main is mined out and their third destroyed.
Style 2:
+ Show Spoiler +The 1/1/1 It's back baby. The dreaded build from Wings of Liberty, the TvP 1/1/1. The Wings 1/1/1 utilized a combination of Raven, Banshee, Marines and Tanks in order to punish a Protoss who tries to play a standard game with a standard expansion timing by chipping away at them while having a beefy high DPS buffer. In LoTV, the zoning power of the 1/1/1 has only gotten stronger, and is probably the one thing I think is actually "strong" in TvP. It's extremely map dependent however, and I reserve the build specifically for Ulrena and sometimes prion terraces. Fortunately, this build is far more simple than the first style. The build: - 13 depot - 16 barracks - 16 gas - 17 gas - @100% barracks, reactor - @100 gas, factory - @100% factory, tech lab and Starport Money is very tight with the build, so mind your double queueing of marines and scvs as you throw down your depots on time. Cut SCVs around 24-25 (22 is maximum 1 base saturation). Once your factory has a tech lab, start your first siege tank. Once the Starport finishes, start a Liberator. DO NOT STOP MARINE PRODUCTION!!!DO NOT STOP MARINE PRODUCTION!!!DO NOT STOP MARINE PRODUCTION!!!DO NOT STOP MARINE PRODUCTION!!!Once you have 8 marines and your first tank, move out, with the tank leading the way and minding any lingering adepts. Your opponent should know something is up by your lack of a natural. The infrastructure set up by 3 minutes.Move right across the map (especially easy on Ulrena) and start setting up at the bottom of their natural ramp. Pull 2-3 SCVs for repairs and making turrets/bunkers. Turrets will give you air dominance, and bunkers are well rounded for holding your position. The Liberator doubles as a heavy duty zoning unit and a ramp spotter as your tank kills the pylons. The attack only becomes more deadly as a second tank and Liberator show up, and it's almost lights out once the third tank and Liberator show up. You may start to have excess minerals as the attack drags, so don't be afraid to back up your attack with a natural CC. 2-3 SCVs give your push heavy duty trenching and on demand repairs.
All-Ins - The 1/1/1 is an all in of your own, and so the unit can be used to counter an all in from Protoss, especially given the defensive capabilities of Tanks and Liberators. I have yet to face a Protoss who goes one base all in vs 1/1/1, but I imagine it would go well for me and I'd take an in base natural behind it.
- The proxy reaper into 2 base push is the same deal. Use your fast infrastructure to deflect 2 base aggression from Protoss. Utilize your Liberators and Cyclones to rid pesky warp prisms from your base and don't be afraid to turret your mineral lines.
Obvious Tips: - Sometimes playing the proxy reaper style can actually just turn into a standard macro game, except you've eliminated most possibility of Protoss cheesing or all inning you and putting the game in a more comfortable position. Just turtle up while minding your upgrades and move out once Protoss takes their fourth (a more easily attacked position than a third or nat). Aim for a late game Bio army with 8-10 Liberators and some mines. Mind if the Protoss has any Stargates, as Tempests are the correct response to Liberators, and will require a Raven or Viking response.
- If playing the game with the original intent to go for the throat, mind mobile units like Stalkers, Oracles, or Phoenix that attempt to cut off your parade
- Be very careful of DT's, as they can ruin your day if you aren't ready to scan them and put you on a timer.
- I sometimes do a double mine drop while harassing with the Liberator if I know there's no Stargate tech. I am conservative with the drop and try to make sure I get the 2 mines out so I may re use them.
- Mind your zoning units. Keep enough support under them so they can't be sniped by Blink Stalkers, but also be mindful enough to spread units so that players who manage to get disruptors or storm out can't just end you by killing the core ground army.
- DO NOT be afraid to take the proxy reaper style into a third CC instead of rax 4 and 5 and play a macro game. Protoss who are intelligent or even just lucky may catch you off guard with counter attacks with the ridiculous OP Warp Prism and its adept warp ins. You do NOT HAVE to go 2 base hard core aggression.
Replays:
Proxy Reaper: http://ggtracker.com/matches/6386871 http://ggtracker.com/matches/6365754 (this one is a Macro game) http://ggtracker.com/matches/6371467 http://ggtracker.com/matches/6386900 http://ggtracker.com/matches/6398528 (this one better follows my MO) http://ggtracker.com/matches/6400050 (another Macro game off the opener) http://ggtracker.com/matches/6412318 http://ggtracker.com/matches/6413450 (GM Protoss who goes phoenix) http://ggtracker.com/matches/6429635 (Rank 4 Master KR) http://ggtracker.com/matches/6431421 (Kill third into contain while double expanding behind it as an alternative)
1/1/1 Timing:
http://ggtracker.com/matches/6386885 http://ggtracker.com/matches/6386894 http://ggtracker.com/matches/6393647 http://ggtracker.com/matches/6393648
Macro Game Just in Case:
http://ggtracker.com/matches/6274090 In short, my macro TvP is something I rarely do anymore, but it revolves around playing really safe with a 1/1/1 Cyclone and Raven into 3 rax 3rd CC, hunting WPs, 4th and 5th rax, and a PDD timing attack at the Protoss third at 8 minutes before going into late game Bio + Liberator. I don't prefer doing this.
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You are my Hero! I was searching for a guide like that!
For me the MU is a nightmare, i use to be a Hots Master Terran and now i am stuck in Dia due to my TvP is at 30% (other MU are above 60%).
I think in Diamond the Terran suffering the most, cause our mechanics are not that great to deal with the lategame and toss know how to "work" there race pretty good in diamond. I rarely see a diamondtoss with less that 60% winrate and most terran have a way below 45% winrate...! I really hope they go through with there older balance ideas (make adept amored and nerfing photon OC)
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What is your opinion on a Reaper expansion into 3 Barracks bio build, with Stimpack and Combat Shields started at roughly 3:30-3:45?
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On January 09 2016 23:23 EatingBomber wrote: What is your opinion on a Reaper expansion into 3 Barracks bio build, with Stimpack and Combat Shields started at roughly 3:30-3:45?
Nope, your third will be way too late and your ability to do any meaningful aggression also comes way too late.
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Jak! Dude, thank you so much for the guide. My TvP win ratio is just brruuuuutal and was in need of some major guidance. I wish there was more of a macro approach as the multitasking required for reaps and building shit back home stretches me with my gold league powers. Also, maybe a noob question but how do you set camera hotkeys over bases?
Guides like these take time, so keep up the good work homie!
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On January 09 2016 23:23 EatingBomber wrote: What is your opinion on a Reaper expansion into 3 Barracks bio build, with Stimpack and Combat Shields started at roughly 3:30-3:45?
I think barracks builds are terrible in LoTV. The whole concept behind a fast 3 rax build is the ability to have up front straightforward aggression. In HoTS you could bait a 6:45 overcharge in TvP then come in at 7:45 and do damage before the 2nd PO is ready or even ignore the PO and target down units and probes.
In LoTV the spammable high damage PO, the adept, and Warp Prism play makes a 1/1/1 tech opener a lot more effective.
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nice build, but what if the toss decides to completely forgo your initial push, and goes with a WP drop in your base. Usually the WP contains 4 stalkers with adepts being warped into your base, wont that just become a base trade? with the Toss probably coming a little above with the MamaCore and its pylon cannons stalling while the WP goes balls deep in your natural or main?
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what i mean is basically this,
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On January 10 2016 04:17 blackcatsc wrote: nice build, but what if the toss decides to completely forgo your initial push, and goes with a WP drop in your base. Usually the WP contains 4 stalkers with adepts being warped into your base, wont that just become a base trade? with the Toss probably coming a little above with the MamaCore and its pylon cannons stalling while the WP goes balls deep in your natural or main?
This actually happened against minigun. He warped a bunch adepts in my nat and killed half my SCV line and I had to make something happen.
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On January 10 2016 03:17 klutch7 wrote: Jak! Dude, thank you so much for the guide. My TvP win ratio is just brruuuuutal and was in need of some major guidance. I wish there was more of a macro approach as the multitasking required for reaps and building shit back home stretches me with my gold league powers. Also, maybe a noob question but how do you set camera hotkeys over bases?
Guides like these take time, so keep up the good work homie!
I set my camera hotkeys on F1 to F4 with no reliance on a key for all Army (an unhealthy habit that kills any multitasking potential). I have it bound to Caps Lock but rarely have use for it.
I put the part about camera hotkeys in jest. I have friends who don't use them and im always telling them they should.
I've always been good about my builds and strategies but my GM buddy long ago told me I was limiting my potential and it got to me.
Camera hotkeys are what pushed me from diamond to Masters when I switched from Zerg to Terran and they've only made my crisis management, multi tasking, and macro more crisp.
Getting used to them was weird but it only took a week.
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Aaaaah~!!!! Kelazhur is doing the proxy reaper style vs Pilipili and it's working out!! *girl scream*
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tried your 1 1 1 lost horribly to DTs, when do you get ebay/turrets? How do you scout DT shrine? Also how do you prevent Toss from scouting you going 1 1 1? In my games probe just moves in and sees everything.
i watched your first replay now, and you did no scouting at all. DTs which can occur at like 4:30 would have totally ruined your push and this would have been most likely instant GG for you, it looks like my diamond scrub toss are playing smarter then your GM toss, lol^^
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On January 10 2016 18:10 AleXusher wrote: tried your 1 1 1 lost horribly to DTs, when do you get ebay/turrets? How do you scout DT shrine? Also how do you prevent Toss from scouting you going 1 1 1? In my games probe just moves in and sees everything
I would say DT is probably the hardest counter to the 1/1/1 and the proper response from Protoss. Of course, this means they had to go Twilight first since going both TC and DT Shrine in response probably takes too long. I get an ebay sometimes as I move out with excess minerals and I've put turrets up with my push before to cover my tanks etc etc.
The probe scout sometimes comes into my main and I simply lock it in with a second depot and the Protoss isn't really aware of if I've expanded or not. I compounded this once by placing my factory in my natural out of view and doing the same with the Starport. It's sort of cheeky but what can I do, I think the MU is broken as hell.
1/1/1 is extremely strong on Ulrena anyway since the rush distance is so short that any reaction to a lack of expo is probably late from P.
I wish I had a perfect TvP build :c
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ok thank you for your reply
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I tried it out a few times. It is strong versus a greedy Protoss but it seems to auto-die against warp prisms since all your units are at his base.
I wonder if it possible to get down a bunker in your main for protection against adept. Problem is that you will need another bunker to protect your production. So that 200 minerals + 400 minerals for the defensive marines = 600 minerals and 8 less marines at his base.
Basically I see no consistent way to to defeat warp prisms adept into your main with this?
Edit: I just got a game where he tried to warp prism harass me while I was attacking his base. Accidently I had forgot to rally one my tanks so I just repaired it with all my SCVs until the adepts was dead. Then my next liberator was out and I chased away the warp prism. Not sure what would have happened if he focused down my workers though instead of the tank.
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On January 10 2016 22:50 MockHamill wrote: I tried it out a few times. It is strong versus a greedy Protoss but it seems to auto-die against warp prisms since all your units are at his base.
I wonder if it possible to get down a bunker in your main for protection against adept. Problem is that you will need another bunker to protect your production. So that 200 minerals + 400 minerals for the defensive marines = 600 minerals and 8 less marines at his base.
Basically I see no consistent way to to defeat warp prisms adept into your main with this?
Edit: I just got a game where he tried to warp prism harass me while I was attacking his base. Accidently I had forgot to rally one my tanks so I just repaired it with all my SCVs until the adepts was dead. Then my next liberator was out and I chased away the warp prism. Not sure what would have happened if he focused down my workers though instead of the tank.
I completely agree with what you are saying and it is disappointing to me that I don't have a perfect solution to the problem. I mentioned that Minigun did the same thing to me and I barely managed to inch out the win by pushing my aggressive agenda harder. Even in a macro game there is no great way to stop warp prisms even though I lay a stray mine and turrets around. If Protoss players do start to catch on, I might just alter my playstyle where I do the proxy reaper in order to throw Protoss off and keep them from cheesing and instead play defense, while I go for a macro game instead of 2 base timing from there and try to play well with Bio Liberator Mine Late Game such as in this replay (listed in the OP):
http://ggtracker.com/matches/6365754
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This guide helped me a lot. I can see how style one is so good on Ulrena..Thank you Jakamakala!
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On January 10 2016 04:41 Jakamakala wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2016 03:17 klutch7 wrote: Jak! Dude, thank you so much for the guide. My TvP win ratio is just brruuuuutal and was in need of some major guidance. I wish there was more of a macro approach as the multitasking required for reaps and building shit back home stretches me with my gold league powers. Also, maybe a noob question but how do you set camera hotkeys over bases?
Guides like these take time, so keep up the good work homie! I set my camera hotkeys on F1 to F4 with no reliance on a key for all Army (an unhealthy habit that kills any multitasking potential). I have it bound to Caps Lock but rarely have use for it. I put the part about camera hotkeys in jest. I have friends who don't use them and im always telling them they should. I've always been good about my builds and strategies but my GM buddy long ago told me I was limiting my potential and it got to me. Camera hotkeys are what pushed me from diamond to Masters when I switched from Zerg to Terran and they've only made my crisis management, multi tasking, and macro more crisp. Getting used to them was weird but it only took a week.
Where do you suggest putting your camera hot keys? I use control groups to macro and backspace "bound to my mouse button" to cycle through my CCs. I cant really find a use for them besides putting them at my opponents ramp or something, but even then I use the ctrl groups to bring my camera to the main chunk of my army.
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On January 11 2016 08:12 Skyhook wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2016 04:41 Jakamakala wrote:On January 10 2016 03:17 klutch7 wrote: Jak! Dude, thank you so much for the guide. My TvP win ratio is just brruuuuutal and was in need of some major guidance. I wish there was more of a macro approach as the multitasking required for reaps and building shit back home stretches me with my gold league powers. Also, maybe a noob question but how do you set camera hotkeys over bases?
Guides like these take time, so keep up the good work homie! I set my camera hotkeys on F1 to F4 with no reliance on a key for all Army (an unhealthy habit that kills any multitasking potential). I have it bound to Caps Lock but rarely have use for it. I put the part about camera hotkeys in jest. I have friends who don't use them and im always telling them they should. I've always been good about my builds and strategies but my GM buddy long ago told me I was limiting my potential and it got to me. Camera hotkeys are what pushed me from diamond to Masters when I switched from Zerg to Terran and they've only made my crisis management, multi tasking, and macro more crisp. Getting used to them was weird but it only took a week. Where do you suggest putting your camera hot keys? I use control groups to macro and backspace "bound to my mouse button" to cycle through my CCs. I cant really find a use for them besides putting them at my opponents ramp or something, but even then I use the ctrl groups to bring my camera to the main chunk of my army.
I set my camera hotkeys to my first four bases. Using a backspace cycling method to go through your bases is inefficient and clunky, and is also no precise. The difference is noticeable when you are getting harassed and need to transfer workers in a split second. It's nice to be able to go to whatever base you need to at will.
I also wouldn't suggest proxy reaper on Ulrena. Just do 1/1/1.
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On January 09 2016 19:20 Jakamakala wrote: I truly and honestly do not believe there is a solid way for Terran to play macro into the mid game while staying even aggressively AND economically with a Protoss player of equal skill.
Why so much balance whine? Sure expansion and new units mean the meta changes. But guess what? Terran is winning over 50% versus Protoss...
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On January 11 2016 11:44 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2016 19:20 Jakamakala wrote: I truly and honestly do not believe there is a solid way for Terran to play macro into the mid game while staying even aggressively AND economically with a Protoss player of equal skill.
Why so much balance whine? Sure expansion and new units mean the meta changes. But guess what? Terran is winning over 50% versus Protoss...
I'd welcome you to briefly describe a good macro way to play vs Protoss where I can be at least even in the early and mid game and safe from Warp Prism adept bs where adepts massacre workers while ignoring the shit attacking and then shade to another base or cancel shade if they don't like what they see.
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Updating OP with 2 more games from an automated tourney. Both 1/1/1s.
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On January 11 2016 16:47 Jakamakala wrote: Updating OP with 2 more games from an automated tourney. Both 1/1/1s.
First of all, thank you for constructively adding to the strategic depth available for perusal on this site.
Second of all, may I ask your opinion of a 3 Barracks bio opening from a Reaper expansion to get a fast Stimpack and Combat Shields, proceeding immediately into an Engineering Bay at 4:00 to get Turrets, on Dusk/Orbital?
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On January 11 2016 16:50 EatingBomber wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2016 16:47 Jakamakala wrote: Updating OP with 2 more games from an automated tourney. Both 1/1/1s. First of all, thank you for constructively adding to the strategic depth available for perusal on this site. Second of all, may I ask your opinion of a 3 Barracks bio opening from a Reaper expansion to get a fast Stimpack and Combat Shields, proceeding immediately into an Engineering Bay at 4:00 to get Turrets, on Dusk/Orbital?
I haven't seen many players go three barracks, and I don't do it myself.
The fundamental purpose of 3 rax in HoTS was to do damage early on or have a strong core army that can fight head on against P core army if you are rushed. In the first scenario you generally moved out with 8 marines and 1 marauder at 6:25 to force a PO, and then you move in at 7:45 ish with a stim timing before the second PO is ready to eek out damage to probes, gateway units, and possibly scout/damage their tech.
In Legacy, there is absolutely no way for you to do upfront damage to Protoss so long as they have 2 pylons at the front of their base. It's ridiculous. Pylons do 50% more dps and cost 25% the energy, so 2 POs (which they shouldn't cast until you committed) can wreck your ground bio and it doesn't carry a heavy opportunity cost. On top of this adepts are very very effective against barracks units, melting marines like butter and tanking marauders like a brick wall.
For these reasons I suggest you either open 1/1/1 for some basic marine production, as well as cyclones that can afford you some map control and can fight gateway units well with some micro, and Liberators that can hold the line against countless gateway units and harass probe lines from range.
Some players will compromise and do a build where they get 2 barracks but still get the factory for the cyclone, and will get the starport later. This is a more defensive macro build that allows more core "dps" units at the cost of any harass or pressure potential (since 3 rax won't work and there's no libs or banshees).
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what about 1/1/1 into 4 hellions drop into whatever you like ?
+ Show Spoiler +I use same opening as you, I mean 16 16 reactor but with only 1 gas untill starport is started
- 13 depot - 16 barracks - 16 gas - @100% barracks, reactor > 4 marines - CC depot - @100 gas, factory then bunker (finish wall)
- @100% factory, starport and switch factory on reactor for 4 hellions and 2 mines) - 2nd gas while starport is being built)
very efficient for scouting AND raping mineral line
my favorite transition is iEchoic style with 2nd starport > cloakshees raven hardcore aggresion but you can also go back to the "standard" 3rax bio tank medivac macro style)
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Ok after testing this out some more I do not think 1-1-1 is a good way to play versus Protoss. It works great under some circumstances but is really weak under others.
I think it is much better to wait with the attack until Protoss is claiming his third. That way you can make your main and your natural more safe against counter attacks and is not severely economically behind since you expand behind the attack.
I typically attack with mass mines supported by tanks and vikings but I imagine lots of unit compositions can work. I think it is the timing itself that is important, you need to secure your bases against counter attacks and you need to start attacking non stop when Protoss claims his third so that he can never mass up on high gas units.
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Cool thank you, I appreciate this contribution. I like the 1-1-1 opener on maps with an exposed natural but I think I will keep persisting with macro oriented reap - cc - cyc - lib - cc - standard build orders for all the rest. The proxy reaper is cool but I personally want to keep developing my even footing mid-late games with toss despite the struggle.
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On January 11 2016 11:44 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2016 19:20 Jakamakala wrote: I truly and honestly do not believe there is a solid way for Terran to play macro into the mid game while staying even aggressively AND economically with a Protoss player of equal skill.
Why so much balance whine? Sure expansion and new units mean the meta changes. But guess what? Terran is winning over 50% versus Protoss...
I'd challenge that by citing Nios.kr and filtering by Korean Grandmaster league. Do the investigating for yourself, but protoss is absolutely monopolizing the top 50 players to an absurd degree. Dig a little further and take a look at the top 2 or 3 terran's matchup specific statistics and the very best Terran's are sporting a 55-60% winrate vs toss compared to the top 10-20 toss's at the moment who are all 70-75% pvt.
I'm not calling your statistics invalid just saying the tens of thousands of ladder matches at the highest level are more meaningful than a very isolated set of tournament statistics.
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On January 11 2016 22:13 Epitoi wrote:what about 1/1/1 into 4 hellions drop into whatever you like ? + Show Spoiler +I use same opening as you, I mean 16 16 reactor but with only 1 gas untill starport is started
- 13 depot - 16 barracks - 16 gas - @100% barracks, reactor > 4 marines - CC depot - @100 gas, factory then bunker (finish wall)
- @100% factory, starport and switch factory on reactor for 4 hellions and 2 mines) - 2nd gas while starport is being built)
very efficient for scouting AND raping mineral line
my favorite transition is iEchoic style with 2nd starport > cloakshees raven hardcore aggresion but you can also go back to the "standard" 3rax bio tank medivac macro style)
What you are describing is a FE build into a drop, which is a completely different approach than what I took here in this guide. I haven't experimented with all the reaper FE builds, but I generally didn't like them because Protoss could just come in with a Warp Prism and warp in fuck all numbers of adepts and own you. It could be worse if you invest into 4 hellions that may be shut down by 2 pylons but who knows? When I opened reaper FE 1/1/1 I personally just pumped out marines, a cyclone, and a Liberator to defend/harass/chase Warp Prisms before pumping out more barracks and the third CC.
I'm completely open to certain aspects of my style being used in conjunction with different builds and styles. i.e. I like opening proxy reaper into 3 base play sometimes (as the one replay in the pack notes).
On January 12 2016 03:27 MockHamill wrote: Ok after testing this out some more I do not think 1-1-1 is a good way to play versus Protoss. It works great under some circumstances but is really weak under others.
I think it is much better to wait with the attack until Protoss is claiming his third. That way you can make your main and your natural more safe against counter attacks and is not severely economically behind since you expand behind the attack.
I typically attack with mass mines supported by tanks and vikings but I imagine lots of unit compositions can work. I think it is the timing itself that is important, you need to secure your bases against counter attacks and you need to start attacking non stop when Protoss claims his third so that he can never mass up on high gas units.
I'm not even sure what you're talking about. 1/1/1 is a ONE BASE BUILD. What player takes a third base before you've even started your natural? On a map like Ulrena you have 8 marines and a tank and you move out towards their nat. Conveniently you also move out past the time that a proxy oracle hits so unless Protoss hits it late or is waiting for you to move out (aka they're being smart) you will probably see the oracle revealed. The attack hits a gate gas Nexus core build Protoss before they even get any meaningful tech out and are banking on relying on minimal units and Pylon Overcharge to hold.
In short, I think you have the attack completely wrong in your explanation here. There's no "natural" on your part until very late into the attack.
On January 12 2016 04:47 mAnarch wrote: Cool thank you, I appreciate this contribution. I like the 1-1-1 opener on maps with an exposed natural but I think I will keep persisting with macro oriented reap - cc - cyc - lib - cc - standard build orders for all the rest. The proxy reaper is cool but I personally want to keep developing my even footing mid-late games with toss despite the struggle.
The build you are describing is what most players, myself included, do when we aren't shaking the game up with proxies or cheeses. Cyclone and Libs are great ways to go because it chases down Warp Prisms and are good vs early P ground units, but unfortunately leave you with little core army and generally a late third. It's these reasons that made me come up with a few different ways to beat P (I have higher win rates with the styles described in the guide). It's mentally jarring, but I have confidence in my micro and control so I do my own styles frequently instead of the macro styles.
I just feel every time I do the macro style some jackass Protoss either does the 4:50 8 gate adept bullshit and wrecks SCVs and takes a safe third behind Pylons of all god damn things or they go 4:10 third Nexus into a shitload of adepts and disruptors and maybe 40% of those games I'll get into the late game safely where I can fight Protoss on good ground with Liberator Bio Mine.
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On January 11 2016 11:44 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2016 19:20 Jakamakala wrote: I truly and honestly do not believe there is a solid way for Terran to play macro into the mid game while staying even aggressively AND economically with a Protoss player of equal skill.
Why so much balance whine? Sure expansion and new units mean the meta changes. But guess what? Terran is winning over 50% versus Protoss...
I don't quite understand this argument - No ladder game is independent in determining your skill level, as you seem to be posting this on every thread.
If protoss is winning a lot of PvT and is getting ranked at a higher level due to ostensible imbalance, that could be a plausible explanation of why they're losing all the PvZ - because winning all their PvT has inflated their MMR. The zergs they are facing could be much more skilled relative to their rank compared to the protoss.
Or it could be a combination of both - PvT is too strong, PvZ is too weak etc. I just don't get how statistics can measure this because you're being readjusted to face opponents that are similarly ranked to you, whether they got their through imbalance or not!
It's also the reason why I'm taking the pros opinion much more over empty statistics over every league.
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So I've been trying to practice what I preach, and if you're going for macro games, it's totally okay to do so off of a proxy reaper opening. I've done some pressure while taking my third behind it and you're relatively safe due to the 5 rax infrastructure. Even got my third before him (a rarity) due to the heavy aggression. I then covered my retreat and played the game out.
I feel sometimes you might be behind in the economic game but if you can drag it out to the Bio Lib high supply stage of the game, it really comes down to taking a good fight so long you can maintain an economy and deter harassment.
Goes without saying that a new replay was added.
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On January 12 2016 07:04 coolprogrammingstuff wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2016 11:44 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 09 2016 19:20 Jakamakala wrote: I truly and honestly do not believe there is a solid way for Terran to play macro into the mid game while staying even aggressively AND economically with a Protoss player of equal skill.
Why so much balance whine? Sure expansion and new units mean the meta changes. But guess what? Terran is winning over 50% versus Protoss... I don't quite understand this argument - No ladder game is independent in determining your skill level, as you seem to be posting this on every thread. If protoss is winning a lot of PvT and is getting ranked at a higher level due to ostensible imbalance, that could be a plausible explanation of why they're losing all the PvZ - because winning all their PvT has inflated their MMR. The zergs they are facing could be much more skilled relative to their rank compared to the protoss. Or it could be a combination of both - PvT is too strong, PvZ is too weak etc. I just don't get how statistics can measure this because you're being readjusted to face opponents that are similarly ranked to you, whether they got their through imbalance or not! It's also the reason why I'm taking the pros opinion much more over empty statistics over every league.
Aligulac isn't based on ladder there chief.
http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/ http://aligulac.com/results/events/51442-GSL-2016/ <-- GSL Stats.
Either way, the balance whine was unnecessary and against the forum rules. I watched Maru open up with 1-1-1 into an expand and pressure multiple times, so this is definitely viable style. And maybe that is why Terrans are keeping up with their winrates?
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France12468 Posts
Terran is Below 50% in both MU and non pro terrans are even more shat on so just let us do what we can in our threads maybe?
I'll definitely take a look on your builds, I experiment with some agressive builds as well abusing the fast expand of protosses.
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I've not played since WoL and very bad at the moment (low diamond) but I have >~65% winrate TvP mostly off of 1 base marine tank liberator pushes based on the type I was comfortable with back in the day. That is total since I started playing again and I lost a lot of TvP at the start to learning all the standard bullshit. I attempt to play straight up macro on Dusk Towers only and banned maps accordingly. Anyways, only commenting to say that I find it basically mandatory to build an ebay as you push out and find that often times turrets at both main and push are vitally important. I know you mentioned it but I definitely build offensive bunkers and turrets with the push. DTs have only ever given me problem when I missed a proxy pylon and they hit my main, but usually manageable with producing units if you already have turret. I always save a scan at push and get a turret up asap for either stargate or twilight techs which are very common. I think it goes without saying that if they 1-base you, you just defend (easily) and build in base cc. I have finished every one of these games by pushing as soon as they expand with same composition.
Thanks for writing this up. As soon as possible I will watch your replays because I am sure your build is more refined than mine.
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On January 14 2016 16:59 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2016 07:04 coolprogrammingstuff wrote:On January 11 2016 11:44 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 09 2016 19:20 Jakamakala wrote: I truly and honestly do not believe there is a solid way for Terran to play macro into the mid game while staying even aggressively AND economically with a Protoss player of equal skill.
Why so much balance whine? Sure expansion and new units mean the meta changes. But guess what? Terran is winning over 50% versus Protoss... I don't quite understand this argument - No ladder game is independent in determining your skill level, as you seem to be posting this on every thread. If protoss is winning a lot of PvT and is getting ranked at a higher level due to ostensible imbalance, that could be a plausible explanation of why they're losing all the PvZ - because winning all their PvT has inflated their MMR. The zergs they are facing could be much more skilled relative to their rank compared to the protoss. Or it could be a combination of both - PvT is too strong, PvZ is too weak etc. I just don't get how statistics can measure this because you're being readjusted to face opponents that are similarly ranked to you, whether they got their through imbalance or not! It's also the reason why I'm taking the pros opinion much more over empty statistics over every league. Aligulac isn't based on ladder there chief. http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/http://aligulac.com/results/events/51442-GSL-2016/ <-- GSL Stats. Either way, the balance whine was unnecessary and against the forum rules. I watched Maru open up with 1-1-1 into an expand and pressure multiple times, so this is definitely viable style. And maybe that is why Terrans are keeping up with their winrates?
If you're so offended, you should report my guide and have it taken down.
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Hey jak,
Thx for sharing this build, I give the 111 a try on a low master account and it was working pretty well.
I also tried a different version with a medivac first to harass, then a liberator and then the big push with 2 tanks 1 liberator and 1 medivac. The medvac is very usefull to harass first then quickly move your tank and heal your marines, what do you think of this version?
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On January 15 2016 02:10 BiiG-Fr wrote: Hey jak,
Thx for sharing this build, I give the 111 a try on a low master account and it was working pretty well.
I also tried a different version with a medivac first to harass, then a liberator and then the big push with 2 tanks 1 liberator and 1 medivac. The medvac is very usefull to harass first then quickly move your tank and heal your marines, what do you think of this version?
Sometimes it can come down to what you scout. I like liberator because it allows you to defend and counter heavy aggression with its heavy fire and can chase WPs.
On the other hand lib is weak vs Stargate so if you happen to catch that with the reapers or your cyclone stops an oracle you might want to rethink harassing with a lib. Lib harass is very strong against robo first, which had seen a resurgence since HoTS where it was Twilight into Robo.
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Jak,
What changes if the adept nerf (2 shot to 3 shot) and pylon overcharge nerf go through? How do you anticipate changing your play style?
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If you're so offended, you should report my guide and have it taken down.
hes not gonna say shit due to the fact that All the Toss players wanna keep it this way ( and i dont really blame him since ya'know, Race pride and all that) , but its fine because Adepts are supposedly getting the Nerf bat soon, im just waiting for that patch before i go wild on Toss and show them how fun it is to lose to BS.
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On January 16 2016 01:17 gh0st wrote: Jak,
What changes if the adept nerf (2 shot to 3 shot) and pylon overcharge nerf go through? How do you anticipate changing your play style?
If these nerfs go through it just means I can try to experiment with macro styles again. That said, if I do try going macro (reactor first FE or reaper FE) I'd have to be responsible about getting +1 armor or Protoss might go macro style with +1 attack to still 2 shot. It also means I could start dropping/pressuring again because Protoss can't spam PO anymore.
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On January 16 2016 03:28 blackcatsc wrote:hes not gonna say shit due to the fact that All the Toss players wanna keep it this way ( and i dont really blame him since ya'know, Race pride and all that) , but its fine because Adepts are supposedly getting the Nerf bat soon, im just waiting for that patch before i go wild on Toss and show them how fun it is to lose to BS.
he's been going on a fair bit about the stats, and now after watching the seed bomber games he's shut it!
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yeah, i saw, ive searched a lot on these forums about how to properly engage TvP, and i see him spouting all these stats and stuff trying to deny the imbalance, when MULTIPLE KR GM pros admit that this is a huge flaw in the game. Of course, Terran has its fair share of BS strats as well, but not to the point where it can completely shut down a specific race and end / cripple the game with a opening push around ~4 mins.
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