|
As a casual ex-BW player who only recenly (early December) switched to SC2, I couldn't help but notice that Protoss players, and everyone else in SC2 plays very greedy, and one base builds are long dead, forcing everyone to grab 3rd base in first 5 minutes of the game or even earlier.
Idea behind it:+ Show Spoiler + In BW, the 2 most common openings in ZvP were 12 hatch (economical, but a Probe/Pylon block can throw you off) and Overpool. The idea behind the Overpool is, if your opponent opens with a greedy build (like a Nexus first etc.), you can punish it without all-ining. Also, the threat of early lings forces a reaction on your opponents part, like an extra Zealot (in Gate first FE), extra Cannon (in FFE), or just pulling probes and losing mining time (in case of Nexus first). In the end, the economical disadvantage of opening Overlord Pool instead of Hatchery first was equalized by forcing your opponent to delay his economic expansion or dealing direct or indirect damage to his economy.
The build so far:+ Show Spoiler + I've used this opening in 3 games on ladder, and in 3 of those games, I either dealt direct economic damage, or forced enough of a response to justify delayed expansion of my own.
Extractor trick 15 Overlord 15 Pool 17 Hatch Lings, skip both Queens for now, get an Overlord after first 8 lings 3rd when you have the money. Now get 2 Queens for Main/Natural Carry on depending on scouting, grab gases, another 1-2 Queens etc.
While I used Overpool only 3 times, I believe with a bit of tweaking, it can be a stable opener in a post PO nerf ZvP. It also felt a lot better then being on the defensive for the majority of early and early-mid game, without being all-in at the same time, as it allows you to quite smoothly transition into a stable mid game.
Proof of concept:+ Show Spoiler +Note that all 3 games are on a map where both main and natural can be easily defended. This means that the opening build should be even stronger on maps with wider entrances, like Ruins of Seras etc, http://ggtracker.com/matches/6457945http://ggtracker.com/matches/6457944http://ggtracker.com/matches/6457943Note: by no means those are good games - just a proof that even after committing to a lot of early lings, we can still be even or ahead economically. Note 2: Please ignore transitions after initial opening and attack in those games. I usually play non-standard, as I have more fun with goofy builds and unit compositions.
Has anyone else tried a similar opening? Do you think it can be used instead of a Hatchery first? What can I do to improve the build/smooth it out?
|
I found it works a little bit better if you go hatch before pool. I did some tweaks where I gas tricked into hatchery, then gas and pool, drone and 13 overlord and that works well for a speedling timing attack. But after some testing the 13 overlord I found to be a lot better then gas tricking 15 anything. Also what I found out, nothing zerg does is an all-in because there is always a come back, you invest larva into units, you can make the units do damage, and while you do you drone hard if you feel you can't break your opponent. You're only real counter to the early game against p is air and that is countered by a spore crawler in each mineral line.
|
On February 07 2016 23:51 DanceSC wrote: I found it works a little bit better if you go hatch before pool. I did some tweaks where I gas tricked into hatchery, then gas and pool, drone and 13 overlord and that works well for a speedling timing attack. But after some testing the 13 overlord I found to be a lot better then gas tricking 15 anything. Also what I found out, nothing zerg does is an all-in because there is always a come back, you invest larva into units, you can make the units do damage, and while you do you drone hard if you feel you can't break your opponent. You're only real counter to the early game against p is air and that is countered by a spore crawler in each mineral line.
I've found vanilla 13ov to be best as well. It's pretty crazy what the mineral difference was for me at the 2m mark between 13ov which was best and 14ov double extractor trick was was one of the worst builds.
For op's post, I'm not familar with P play enough, but I'd be worried that overpool is a middle ground between going 12-14 pool and hatch pool that hits too late to not do anything. I don't like that the build doesn't get out a queen for a while, but with 13 pool you can get out a queen asap. If I went overpool I think they could have a zealot already out plus a second adept/zealot on the way and I just made 6 lings for absolutely nothing.
I'm biased towards 13 pool though because it feels amazing and more flexible to me, plus it's a viable opener zvz so I'm used to it. I tried 12 pool after seeing losira do it in day 4 of gsl code a vs choya on dusk towers, but it feels like a huge eco hit compared to 13 pool. 14 pool feels too slow and I can get a queen and hatch really fast with 13 pool anyway.
This might not matter yet, but for newer games it's easier to balance game theory wise by having two extreme polarized ranges/builds, like for poker having a total air true bluffing range and then a value range. For sc2 I feel like it's easier to have a really early pool and then an extreme macro build. As the game gets more figured out and you get a better read on your opponent you can start adding in a merged range / middle ground build.
Take that with a grain of salt too. I hate going middle ground builds like ~17 pool in zvz. It always seems better to me to go something like 14/14 or hatch first.
|
"Has anyone else tried a similar opening? "
Yes, and unless they go for an insanely greedy no gas Nexus first opening it's really bad.
"Do you think it can be used instead of a Hatchery first?"
Maybe in a bo3 on an appropriate map where you knew your opponent was going to play really greedy, but Hatch first seems vastly more optimal considering an Overpool build will slow down your economy ALOT and if you don't inflict appropriate economic damage your pretty much just dead compared to opening hatch and fast speed your economy will be up and running and map control will be yours.
Or at the very least you won't die to early Adept pressure which you certainly will if your on one base with a late Queen and no speed or late speed.
"What can I do to improve the build/smooth it out?"
I mean the build seems ironed out pretty well but skipping the Queens in favor of more lings is just ehh, can't really get behind it, a good Protoss would wreck this handily, especially since most Protoss players I go up against even at a low masters level send a probe scout out pretty damn early to check for such tom foolery.
|
On February 08 2016 13:50 jpg06051992 wrote: "Has anyone else tried a similar opening? "
Yes, and unless they go for an insanely greedy no gas Nexus first opening it's really bad.
"Do you think it can be used instead of a Hatchery first?"
Maybe in a bo3 on an appropriate map where you knew your opponent was going to play really greedy, but Hatch first seems vastly more optimal considering an Overpool build will slow down your economy ALOT and if you don't inflict appropriate economic damage your pretty much just dead compared to opening hatch and fast speed your economy will be up and running and map control will be yours.
Or at the very least you won't die to early Adept pressure which you certainly will if your on one base with a late Queen and no speed or late speed.
"What can I do to improve the build/smooth it out?"
I mean the build seems ironed out pretty well but skipping the Queens in favor of more lings is just ehh, can't really get behind it, a good Protoss would wreck this handily, especially since most Protoss players I go up against even at a low masters level send a probe scout out pretty damn early to check for such tom foolery.
I don't think it's fair to completely disregard a strategy just "because they should defend it". Everything in this game can technically be defended. This kind of mentality is probably what got us to the harp-darp economic standard we have today.
|
Hmm, I'm only gold, but how are you supposed to deal with adepts after your 8 lings are dealt with? Does the timing work out?
You build 8 lings and third before queens, and gas only after that. You'll have few queens, few larva and only access to build slowlings. :/ Straight to roaches before speed?
|
On February 08 2016 21:59 InfCereal wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2016 13:50 jpg06051992 wrote: "Has anyone else tried a similar opening? "
Yes, and unless they go for an insanely greedy no gas Nexus first opening it's really bad.
"Do you think it can be used instead of a Hatchery first?"
Maybe in a bo3 on an appropriate map where you knew your opponent was going to play really greedy, but Hatch first seems vastly more optimal considering an Overpool build will slow down your economy ALOT and if you don't inflict appropriate economic damage your pretty much just dead compared to opening hatch and fast speed your economy will be up and running and map control will be yours.
Or at the very least you won't die to early Adept pressure which you certainly will if your on one base with a late Queen and no speed or late speed.
"What can I do to improve the build/smooth it out?"
I mean the build seems ironed out pretty well but skipping the Queens in favor of more lings is just ehh, can't really get behind it, a good Protoss would wreck this handily, especially since most Protoss players I go up against even at a low masters level send a probe scout out pretty damn early to check for such tom foolery. I don't think it's fair to completely disregard a strategy just "because they should defend it". Everything in this game can technically be defended. This kind of mentality is probably what got us to the harp-darp economic standard we have today.
It's not fair or unfair and I'm not just disregarding it blindly, I'm clearly explaining myself no? This build can be easily defended by a Protoss player that scouts at a decently early time and didn't open with a no gas Nexus first opening. If you opened this build order and the Protoss player opned with double gate Adept you would pretty much have a build order loss on your hands.
"This kind of mentality is probably what got us to the harp-darp economic standard we have today."
And what mentality is this exactly? That I don't agree with inefficient build orders? I also said it probably has it's place considering in the GSL bo3 matches usually a Zerg will throw in some type of pool first/Overpool kind of thing. This guy is asking a question and I answered it at least in my own way, I didn't know I had to agree with him to be fair.
The gold league guy above me get's it so I'm not sure where you got so tickled.
|
Adepts come out too late to stop the 15 pool lings from sniping the pylon. After that I can delay mining, snipe a natural, or delay their tech/supply block them by a large amount before probes and msc muscle lings out of their base.
To stop this, the protoss needs to open gateway first and not skip the zealot and get adepts asap. With a few probes pulled and the ramp blocked it is easy in fact to defend. But even then we are not that behind economically. However, in most games I played vs p, they either go nexus first, or skip the zealot, allowing me to deal a lot of damage. That is why I made the thread in the first place.
If protoss defends well, there is a short window where adepts can deal a lot of damage. Usually I grab 2 gases and get roaches for defense/harass if I smell no detection. But that's just me - I guess you could grab the gas for ling speed slightly before taking the 3rd. But thankfully, protoss players naturally assume that I get the gas during the initial attack and speed, so they are scared of moving out, while I just mass drones on 3 hatches, skip ling speed and go for roach hydra infestor or roach hydra lurker.
I'm not saying that the opening is great for all levels, however it serves me good at diamond level at the moment. And yes, the build is vulnerable to an early (before roaches come out) adept counter attack, this is one big flaw of it and thanks for pointing this out. But thanks to meta being centered aroung zerg always getting ling speed early, I get free wins
Also, I tested your suggested 13 overlord vs 15 over. It ends up with the same timing/drone/larva and with around 10 minerals more for 15 over version.
|
On February 09 2016 01:47 jpg06051992 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2016 21:59 InfCereal wrote:On February 08 2016 13:50 jpg06051992 wrote: "Has anyone else tried a similar opening? "
Yes, and unless they go for an insanely greedy no gas Nexus first opening it's really bad.
"Do you think it can be used instead of a Hatchery first?"
Maybe in a bo3 on an appropriate map where you knew your opponent was going to play really greedy, but Hatch first seems vastly more optimal considering an Overpool build will slow down your economy ALOT and if you don't inflict appropriate economic damage your pretty much just dead compared to opening hatch and fast speed your economy will be up and running and map control will be yours.
Or at the very least you won't die to early Adept pressure which you certainly will if your on one base with a late Queen and no speed or late speed.
"What can I do to improve the build/smooth it out?"
I mean the build seems ironed out pretty well but skipping the Queens in favor of more lings is just ehh, can't really get behind it, a good Protoss would wreck this handily, especially since most Protoss players I go up against even at a low masters level send a probe scout out pretty damn early to check for such tom foolery. I don't think it's fair to completely disregard a strategy just "because they should defend it". Everything in this game can technically be defended. This kind of mentality is probably what got us to the harp-darp economic standard we have today. It's not fair or unfair and I'm not just disregarding it blindly, I'm clearly explaining myself no? This build can be easily defended by a Protoss player that scouts at a decently early time and didn't open with a no gas Nexus first opening. If you opened this build order and the Protoss player opned with double gate Adept you would pretty much have a build order loss on your hands. "This kind of mentality is probably what got us to the harp-darp economic standard we have today." And what mentality is this exactly? That I don't agree with inefficient build orders? I also said it probably has it's place considering in the GSL bo3 matches usually a Zerg will throw in some type of pool first/Overpool kind of thing. This guy is asking a question and I answered it at least in my own way, I didn't know I had to agree with him to be fair. The gold league guy above me get's it so I'm not sure where you got so tickled.
Because you can theory craft back and forth for years, and you'll come to the conclusion nothing will work. Strategies need to be tried and tested before claiming they're non-viable.
There's a GM player who only cannon rushes for heaven sakes. If someone came into this board asking about the viability of building your base at your opponents base, you'd give him the same response you gave this guy. "That's stupid. That won't work. XYZ will defeat it. You'll be behind. How will you defend roaches with a cannon. Blagh Blah Blah".
You see this shit all the fucking time in competitive games, and it's probably the most annoying thing in existence. Imagine what you'd say if someone came in and asked how viable moving out with 8 sentries and 2 immortals is in ZvP. That build was literally the only chance protoss has against zerg late WoL and it's premise is fucking laughable.
|
|
|
|