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Hi everyone - I was gold/plat in WoL and skipped HoTS...we moved to a rural area With no internet at the time but they've just laid broadband infrastructure so I'm back in the game with LoTV.
I'm finding that I'm getting rolled pretty easily in in silver league, especially in PvT, mainly to bio/lib/drops. And, I seem to play against Terran way more than any other race.
However, I'm not looking for how to 'counter' that army because there's plenty of posts on that, I think I'm really just not understanding what standard play has become with the new economy and units. Also feeling WAY out of the loop having missed all of HoTS.
Can someone help me understand what is now standard for P? Expansion timings either by supply or time, good timing for pushes (for example, in WoL 10-12 mins seemed to feel good playing as P), openers, wall/no wall entrance, army comp, etc.
Thanks in advance!
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United Kingdom20157 Posts
You can usually secure the first expansion from 1 gate (either before the cyber core or, more safely?, afterwards) and build a few units from the gateway, probably adepts to protect you against reapers and scout.
rough style i've been playing + Show Spoiler +After that, adding a stargate then later a few extra gateways is pretty good. With phoenix's providing anti-air and dealing with liberators+medivacs, you can go more zealot-heavy on the ground rather than making stalkers which deals better with main army.
Charge, armor upgrades and guardian shield are pretty important for hard engagements - Archons, immortals and storm are good when you can add them
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1 gate nexus is probably the most common opener currently. You cut probes at 20 (saturate minerals and 1 gas + 1 probe scout) which lets you get a Nexus (I believe ~1:20 min mark, for reference Nexus first is ~1:00 min mark) inbetween your Gate and Core without delaying your Core and thus your tech. I feel this is important in this matchup as harass in the early game in this matchup is typically through tech options. Also going gate first lets you defend vs. proxies much better which I'm sure you'll run into in this matchup.
Going Blink Stalkers is a lot more popular than Phoenix. You should be able to defend any early drops and libs with 4+ stalkers and good Observer coverage. In terms of pushes, moving out to attempt to deny/delay Terran's third base is pretty popular with a solid mix of Adept/Stalker/Immortal/Sentries.
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You can even go 1 gate expand into stargate and get third nexus pretty quickly, if you can contain terran for a while with your stargate units, he will be too late to punish your fast third. The question is when to add additional gates. Morrow gets 2 gates before 3erd nexus, you may wish to have 3. Make sure to have a pylon and MSC to defend it if he attacks, and then just warp in units from 2-3 gateways.
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i also recommend 3 gates before 3rd nexus.
and stargate open. if oracles stop working for you, learn to play phoenixes.
I get a robo after 3 gates btw. Warp prisms needed for fast warp in.
Protoss is much much more difficult in LOTV. watch some GSL to get a feel first.
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United Kingdom20157 Posts
which lets you get a Nexus (I believe ~1:20 min mark, for reference Nexus first is ~1:00 min mark) inbetween your Gate and Core without delaying your Core and thus your tech.
Yeah, that's a cool thing in LOTV. In WOL+HOTS there was often this feeling of "i need 100 gas when the core finishes" to start warpgate+stalker. In Legacy you can start a nexus early after the gateway, have 25 gas when the core finishes to start an adept and then just start the warpgate when you get the next 50 gas.
It doesn't delay your ranged unit at all, so you can chrono the first adept and either walk across the map with it or hold back and defend reaper based on the map and what your scouting probe saw (If he's gasless, the first unit has to be a marine. If he took gas, it could be a marine or reaper and you can see that as it pops out)
go at least 3 gates + tech building + forge before third nexus 100% of the time below masters IMO
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On February 15 2016 01:14 MNUplander wrote: Hi everyone - I was gold/plat in WoL and skipped HoTS...we moved to a rural area With no internet at the time but they've just laid broadband infrastructure so I'm back in the game with LoTV.
I'm finding that I'm getting rolled pretty easily in in silver league, especially in PvT, mainly to bio/lib/drops. And, I seem to play against Terran way more than any other race.
However, I'm not looking for how to 'counter' that army because there's plenty of posts on that, I think I'm really just not understanding what standard play has become with the new economy and units. Also feeling WAY out of the loop having missed all of HoTS.
Can someone help me understand what is now standard for P? Expansion timings either by supply or time, good timing for pushes (for example, in WoL 10-12 mins seemed to feel good playing as P), openers, wall/no wall entrance, army comp, etc.
Thanks in advance! Like others have mentioned, 1gate FE (with taking a gas). Gets you started on the gas for an adept or stalker and a mothership core after cybercore finishes.
Midgame I still favor going robo with an observer and adept drops with a look towards colossus and/or disruptors depending on what he does. The observer is nice on defense, just like WoL, spotting drops and terran decisions. Adept drops are incredibly disruptive even if not packing quite the economic devastation of former balance patches. You get them in both mineral lines and target down scvs and optionally isolated army and it covers some of your future expanding and teching. More gates, fast third, robo bay. Eye is for chargelot immortal colossus/disruptor to kill bio, blinkstalkers in late midgame to snipe liberators. Later HT storm, later tempests for libs.
Oracle/Phoenix is a fine opening too. More punishment for drops, a lot of opportunity for sustained economic damage. Scouting, revelation. You go into a third and standard paths after 3-5 phoenix.
You don't need to wall entrance. You do need pylons covering common drop areas and mineral lines.
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This is awesome - thank you everyone. I was often at least 2 minutes slower than this on my expansion, getting 2 warp gates, cybernetics core and 1 tech structure before expanding - very WoL-ish. I saw my opponents expanding earlier but thought that meant I could punish them but it turns out that's pretty safe...I was either losing the first engagement because they were safer than I thought or getting killed in econ unless my opponent sucked or I did a 1 base all-in.
Also good to know about cutting probes at 20 - the times I did try for fast expand I didnt ever cut probes thinking that being oversaturated for a short time was worth having a head start when the expo was done. But, this made it so I could never find a place in time for the MSC so rushes were killing me and the minerals saved could be used for an extra gate and forge.
This opener sounds like it could be pretty safe PvP as well, right? As long as you dont scout some 1 base all-in, that is.
What about PvZ - can you hold against an early pool with this or do you need to get an early scout on Z to make sure?
Thanks again!
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PvP openers are very map dependent. You can fast expand on maps with backdoor naturals but you should do a complete wall-off to prevent adepts from shading in. 2-gate core before Nexus openers can work here because you can punish nexus first and 1-gate nexus builds with your early adept advantage.
PvZ is also somewhat map dependent. Nexus first (cut probes at 16) is safe on maps with backdoor naturals and choke at your ramp, otherwise yes 1-gate nexus is safe vs. early pools but you will have to pull probes to defend your natural. Most people scout after throwing down their gateway. Early pool lings spawn ~1:30 for reference. Once you scout the early pool chrono out 2 zealots before your core finishes. Also nice to check if they are mining gas for ling speed so you know how committed they are with early aggression.
While opening 2-gate core before nexus (which typically goes down ~1:40 by cutting probes @ 19 with 2 in gas) is less micro intensive and you possibly scout the early pool/lings before committing to the nexus, it still delays your nexus and if you wanted to play a macro game 1-gate nexus still feels more economical even with the pull probe and a few probe losses, but of course it really depends on your micro (and also the map). My 2c is you want to learn how to be able to defend against early lings with a 1-gate nexus opener regardless as you're going to run into that situation quite often.
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Perfect - this should be a great help.
Thanks again!
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