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I'm experimenting with an idea I'd like to share so a better player can refine the concept (I don't do builds, I do concepts+efficiency so I can't give a build order as my build orders change every game, depending on what I scout).
I've been trying out Archon/Chargelot drops whenever I scout a fast 3x expand and a spire.
The idea is to drop 2 Archons behind the zerg mineral line asap and warp in around 8 chargelots. Preferrably with 2/0/0, to get the most gas as fast as possible, depending on the map I try to open pylon 14, nexus 15, gateway 16, forge 17, 2x gas 18.
Using the gatway and forge+1 cannon to form a wall on maps like dusk with a small ramp+pocket expansion or forge+cannon+gateway+pylon for a larger ramp.
In my brief experience experimenting with this it's done pretty good, using cannons, stalkers and 2 defensive archons @ home (1 archon per mineral line set to partrol) to deter muta hatass while you assault the zerg base with 2 archons+chargelots, while massing more archons (all your gas goes into archons, observers and upgrades) and mineral dumping into chargelots, cannons and warp prisms.
I've had zerg try to transition, usually into Lurkers but with Observers and the mass economic damage that seems to happen from the unexpected Archon drop as long as you're ontop of what targets the Archons should be focusing (clumps of retreating drones) and letting the chargelots chase combat units/act as a buffer (remember to manually move Chargelots away from the enemy when charge is done its cooldown to activate it again, works especially well vs sniping structures) I rarely see them actually pop in any number that would make a difference.
Anyone have thoughts on this as a concept? Its working pretty well at daimond and below in unranked but only vs fast spire 3 base builds, haven't tried it vs anything else, bar fast spire 3 base trying to transition.
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I was watching Naniwa's stream yesterday and he opened with a similar concept... well archon drops/micro in drone lines before lair tech units or AA kicks in. The way he gets there is using dts though.
- nexus first or gate expand (1 adept to scout). - twilight/robo after that - dark shrine -> (4 dts) to snipe third/harass drones (take own 3rd base) - morph dts into archons if detection present and micro archons in and out of WP - transition into imortal archon chargelot - transition into late game as necessary
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On May 01 2016 14:47 joshie0808 wrote: I was watching Naniwa's stream yesterday and he opened with a similar concept... well archon drops/micro in drone lines before lair tech units or AA kicks in. The way he gets there is using dts though.
- nexus first or gate expand (1 adept to scout). - twilight/robo after that - dark shrine -> (4 dts) to snipe third/harass drones (take own 3rd base) - morph dts into archons if detection present and micro archons in and out of WP - transition into imortal archon chargelot - transition into late game as necessary
That's a neat alternate by using Dark Templar instead of High Templar, which is what I was doing. I imagine it would be more effective vs non fast spire builds but fast spire might need high templar instead just so you can afford the skeleton stalker crew to shoo mutas away from non-mineral lines.
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United Kingdom20157 Posts
I was watching Naniwa's stream yesterday and he opened with a similar concept... well archon drops/micro in drone lines before lair tech units or AA kicks in. The way he gets there is using dts though.
Have played w/ similar style and you can do a lot with a few DT's and/or an archon in a warp prism. Archon between/behind minerals vs pure zergling is laughable when you can pick it up before it dies or gets surrounded
but fast spire might need high templar instead
I don't think so, spire timing can't be super early without cutting a lot of units
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I approve. Frankly there's always ways to defend a particular build, so anyone that suggests, "Hey the Zerg can just make X." is missing the point.
But I ask how many gates are you use to do this? 4 gate?
I assume you can easily make this a very effective 2 base all-in. BUt as harassment goes. I would think 4 gates would be a solid number while taking a 3rd base. But to be honest. It wouldn't really matter since the Zealots are expendable and the Archons are only worth saving. Just depends on how aggressive you want to make it.
Its also possible to make a 2nd Warp Prism so as spilt the Zergs forces by having 2 warp in points on opposite sides of the map. However this would only be practical IMO if you were originally harassing with 1 Warp Prism and decided to just all-in because you were dealing critical damage.
Another point. Why not go Shields? Archons have 350 health in regenerative shields. Ina build like this. I would think shield upgrades may actually be superior as the Archons attack upgrade probably doesn't kill the enemy units in less hits.
However now that I think about it.+1 attack may let the Archon 1 shot lings, but I may be wrong.
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Could you post a replay or 2?
The concept sounds interesting. Is there some reason for 15 nexus? You have to cut probes pretty heavily for that.
I'd say that dts would be better since they cost less gas and are invisisible. (chargelots snipe the spore and dts clean the base). Even if zerg has overseer you can let dts tank some damage first/kill couple lings and then morph into archon.
With dts I'd assume you would go for zergs 3rd base and try to kill that. Then take your own 3rd base and try to harass the zerg with archons and chargelots while knowing exactly what the zerg is doing.
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On May 02 2016 04:09 Alluton wrote: Could you post a replay or 2?
The concept sounds interesting. Is there some reason for 15 nexus? You have to cut probes pretty heavily for that.
I'd say that dts would be better since they cost less gas and are invisisible. (chargelots snipe the spore and dts clean the base). Even if zerg has overseer you can let dts tank some damage first/kill couple lings and then morph into archon.
With dts I'd assume you would go for zergs 3rd base and try to kill that. Then take your own 3rd base and try to harass the zerg with archons and chargelots while knowing exactly what the zerg is doing.
I think I have a replay from unranked where I did this yesterday. I was half drunk so don't judge me too harshly, lol. Give me 30 mins to find it and upload it.
On May 01 2016 23:00 Sweetness.751 wrote: I approve. Frankly there's always ways to defend a particular build, so anyone that suggests, "Hey the Zerg can just make X." is missing the point.
But I ask how many gates are you use to do this? 4 gate?
I assume you can easily make this a very effective 2 base all-in. BUt as harassment goes. I would think 4 gates would be a solid number while taking a 3rd base. But to be honest. It wouldn't really matter since the Zealots are expendable and the Archons are only worth saving. Just depends on how aggressive you want to make it.
Its also possible to make a 2nd Warp Prism so as spilt the Zergs forces by having 2 warp in points on opposite sides of the map. However this would only be practical IMO if you were originally harassing with 1 Warp Prism and decided to just all-in because you were dealing critical damage.
Another point. Why not go Shields? Archons have 350 health in regenerative shields. Ina build like this. I would think shield upgrades may actually be superior as the Archons attack upgrade probably doesn't kill the enemy units in less hits.
However now that I think about it.+1 attack may let the Archon 1 shot lings, but I may be wrong.
6 gate initially, then you tack on 2 more after, when both bases are fully saturated/depending on need. Basically it's just a 2 base chargelot archon, you can easily transition into a 3rd since your fast nexus means you should have a incredible economy.
No shields mainly because you need a ton of gas for Arhcons, delaying the push too much for ups allows the zerg to cement their position and get additional tech. Personally, I've done 3x forge for mass ups before but you need a 3 base to really afford it without cutting into your splash damage and attack upgrades matter quite a bit on the Archon vs anything bio.
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I'm confused, wouldn't you have to commit to your initial tech path before you would ever see the zerg throw down a spire?
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On May 02 2016 06:33 Skyro wrote: I'm confused, wouldn't you have to commit to your initial tech path before you would ever see the zerg throw down a spire?
If you scout fastish gas, a pool, no roach warren and the ling drop/roach ravager timing passes you're either vsing LMB or you're facing some Lurker variant. It's just something you develop a 6th sense for and you get tech based on that.
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feels like zerg could easily transition into roaches and stop this. how many gateways do you throw down? i'd almost prefer the 2 base chargelot warp prism all in, try to hit before spire finishes. waiting for 4 archons with +2 and a warp prism, whats the fastest your strat hits at? can u pull this off before 6-7 minutes? and do you use dts? im assuming you use dts for archons. i play zerg at diamond/masters level and would rarely go 3 hatch spire vs toss without having a warren as backup incase. also nexus on 15? eh? you didnt even list a cybercore in your build order...u went forge. what level do u play at?
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