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After returning after a long pause - I would like if you agree that the changes that LotV brought for Terran does not change the overall characteristic of Terran game.
In other words it is still bio+medivac and sometimes tanks or sometimes mines that is our bread and butter.
I rarely see Cyclones (1) - when are they good? upgraded banshees (2) - rarely used upgraded (fix attempt) battlecrusers (3) - not in low 1v1 and even in 4v4 as a fun class toss void/carrier is more potent Reapers (4) high utility for early game Liberators (5) interesting option ... somewhat...
so how do I transition in high util - valuable units in late game as Terran?
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You can not. Mech was viable in TvT and TvZ in HOTS.
In LotV mech is completely dead (except maybe in TvT on certain maps, and even that is doubtful).
You are forced to play bio every game.
There is no transition. There is only bio, supported by liberators and flying tanks.
Welcome to LotV.
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What MockHamill said. It's only bio now, with an added support unit in the Liberator.
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Like previous comments, bio is king in LOTV due to mobility and efficient use of minerals. There are some pretty strong mech pushes, usually relying on the liberator with tanks cyclones, bunker, marines seen in T v P or T v Z. Late game seems always just as many liberators as possible. Ravens: nerfed, BC/speed banshee require fusion core. Fusion core is seen usually its to enable the lib range upgrade which is really strong.
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Cyclone are good in the early game in small skirmishes or against harrasment. They are useful in a mobile mech composition together with hellions in TvP and TvZ mech as well.
Upgraded banshees I've mostly been experimenting with in TvZ and TvP mech in the late game as a way of attacking multiple bases. It works well on big maps in particular and is a nice transition if you play hellion / cyclone.
Battlecruiser I havent found a use for.
Reapers like u said for scouting early game or 2 / 3 rax reaper vs terran and zerg.
Liberators works good for harrassment in early and late game as well as part of a general army in both bio and mech compositions.
And mech is maybe not viable at the pro level atm except for maybe the TvT matchup where it is coming into play lately. But its defintely viable up to high master.
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On July 14 2016 22:43 neverlast wrote: After returning after a long pause - I would like if you agree that the changes that LotV brought for Terran does not change the overall characteristic of Terran game.
In other words it is still bio+medivac and sometimes tanks or sometimes mines that is our bread and butter.
I rarely see Cyclones (1) - when are they good? upgraded banshees (2) - rarely used upgraded (fix attempt) battlecrusers (3) - not in low 1v1 and even in 4v4 as a fun class toss void/carrier is more potent Reapers (4) high utility for early game Liberators (5) interesting option ... somewhat...
so how do I transition in high util - valuable units in late game as Terran? Cyclones, I mass them up every day.
Upgraded banshees, love em in tvz
Bcs suck as usual
Liberators are the new tanks, mass them up and amove across the map
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Italy12246 Posts
Retagged and moved to the strategy forum where this kind of discussion belongs.
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I only play Terran in team games, and Terran just feels terrible there. The only effective late game unit Terran has is the Liberator, which you can get in the mid game and is Reactored. It feels like Marines are still the best unit Terran has at every stage of the game.
I feel like Zerg (and Protoss to a lesser extent) had some really significant improvements in LOTV so many of their units are effective and the play styles they can play are varied, where as Terran actually went backward in that regard.
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People had absolutely no interest in changing terran in lotv beta. Nerf bio, shift strength to other units? NO FUCKING WAY! What people want is: BIO DROP BIO DROP BIO!
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On July 15 2016 00:59 BronzeKnee wrote: I only play Terran in team games, and Terran just feels terrible there. The only effective late game unit Terran has is the Liberator, which you can get in the mid game and is Reactored. It feels like Marines are still the best unit Terran has at every stage of the game.
I feel like Zerg (and Protoss to a lesser extent) had some really significant improvements in LOTV so many of their units are effective and the play styles they can play are varied, where as Terran actually went backward in that regard.
Terran is still good in team games. Hellions and Reapers are good for controlling the early game and joining forces with your allies whereas bio is still a good composition in the mid game.
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On July 15 2016 01:20 Heyjoray wrote: People had absolutely no interest in changing terran in lotv beta. Nerf bio, shift strength to other units? NO FUCKING WAY! What people want is: BIO DROP BIO DROP BIO! By people you mean Blizzard people or the players in general? I for sure wanted an alternative to the bio spam and there were a lot of others with similar wishes. Sadly many that wanted something else have left.
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On July 15 2016 01:47 Pnissen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2016 00:59 BronzeKnee wrote: I only play Terran in team games, and Terran just feels terrible there. The only effective late game unit Terran has is the Liberator, which you can get in the mid game and is Reactored. It feels like Marines are still the best unit Terran has at every stage of the game.
I feel like Zerg (and Protoss to a lesser extent) had some really significant improvements in LOTV so many of their units are effective and the play styles they can play are varied, where as Terran actually went backward in that regard. Terran is still good in team games. Hellions and Reapers are good for controlling the early game and joining forces with your allies whereas bio is still a good composition in the mid game.
You're right, they aren't terrible, but I still think they just feel terrible. If neither side attacks early and just some harassment happens and you get into the late game macroing, you just get crushed as Terran in my experience. So you are on a timer, and I really hate that feeling.
Certainly I don't want Blizzard to balance the game for team games, but team games really do illustrate the lack of effective units Terran can build in the late game.
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On July 15 2016 13:42 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2016 01:20 Heyjoray wrote: People had absolutely no interest in changing terran in lotv beta. Nerf bio, shift strength to other units? NO FUCKING WAY! What people want is: BIO DROP BIO DROP BIO! By people you mean Blizzard people or the players in general? I for sure wanted an alternative to the bio spam and there were a lot of others with similar wishes. Sadly many that wanted something else have left. Nope, people on teamliquid and reddit
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You're right, they aren't terrible, but I still think they just feel terrible. If neither side attacks early and just some harassment happens and you get into the late game macroing, you just get crushed as Terran in my experience. So you are on a timer, and I really hate that feeling.
Certainly I don't want Blizzard to balance the game for team games, but team games really do illustrate the lack of effective units Terran can build in the late game.
@BronzeKnee Absolutely I agree. Terran is not broken but lacks alternatives. Which matters in higher leagues and in late games.
Big bio balls need place for a concave to fight which you do not have on the maps. As low range units need that..... And in TvZ Viper neglects every expensive unit strategy (thor, liberators, tanks, even cyclones)
In TvP you have Tempests that P can switch to where we can only neglect them locally with PDDrone ...
Blizz ?
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On July 15 2016 17:28 Heyjoray wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2016 13:42 Sapphire.lux wrote:On July 15 2016 01:20 Heyjoray wrote: People had absolutely no interest in changing terran in lotv beta. Nerf bio, shift strength to other units? NO FUCKING WAY! What people want is: BIO DROP BIO DROP BIO! By people you mean Blizzard people or the players in general? I for sure wanted an alternative to the bio spam and there were a lot of others with similar wishes. Sadly many that wanted something else have left. Nope, people on teamliquid and reddit I remember a bunch of threads about how to make mech viable.
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On July 15 2016 19:14 neverlast wrote:Show nested quote +You're right, they aren't terrible, but I still think they just feel terrible. If neither side attacks early and just some harassment happens and you get into the late game macroing, you just get crushed as Terran in my experience. So you are on a timer, and I really hate that feeling.
Certainly I don't want Blizzard to balance the game for team games, but team games really do illustrate the lack of effective units Terran can build in the late game. @BronzeKnee Absolutely I agree. Terran is not broken but lacks alternatives. Which matters in higher leagues and in late games. Big bio balls need place for a concave to fight which you do not have on the maps. As low range units need that..... And in TvZ Viper neglects every expensive unit strategy (thor, liberators, tanks, even cyclones) In TvP you have Tempests that P can switch to where we can only neglect them locally with PDDrone ... Blizz ?
The Viper is such a toxic unit for the game, I'm glad I don't see it much anymore since everyone is still in love with Lurkers. The ability to just remove expensive units from the game with Abduct (assuming you have Roach/Hydra under the Vipers) with a single click is so destructive to late game strategy, forcing players away from expensive units. And that is to say nothing of Blinding Cloud simply negating damage from an area entirely. Viper is just as bad as Vortex was for the game.
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The ability to just remove expensive units from the game with Abduct.....forcing players away from expensive units
So true..... the other races do not have anything that is equally effective... oh wait there is Neural Parasite... oh wait again - that is also Z.
Blinding cloud has similarities with PDD. Renders locally specific units "attack-less"... but moving enemy units, to one-shot them is a bit too much...
Maybe T has to use more Ghosts and EMP these spell units ....but this still means T is under pressure and poses no real threat .... and has to evade large fights until they EMP effectively... so we need way larger maps ?
Drops or hellion/mmm drops/banshee economy attacks are less effective in late game compared to mid/early as - more enemy is on the map - defending units are stonger / workers are upgraded - more cannons/turrets/spore crawler can be planted to protect exes - more detection is in the air (observer/overseer) or just lurking overlord that detects the medivac - creep is everywhere... - enemy has also faster units (roach/lings+upgrads or just mutas)
So T can not rely on effective eco attacks in the late game, to turn the tide - unless you manage to have a series of successful undetected nukes. But that is more a royal flash of sc2.... ;-) and then you still need to win the main fight / or trade as least somewhat even to gain advantage of that...
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Am I missing something or does T have a pretty good shot vs Z once they get missle turret/ghost/liberator (with range) and viking. Think like heromarine vs scarlett from HSC XIII on dusk towers. Heromarine didn't get liberator range and slowly got picked apart, but scarlett has always been very good at those situations
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@DBS - I do not know that game ...I will look it up thanks. Turrets are great just that no one does the favor to fight with his main army where 3-4 turrets are placed. Let alone that I (bronze) sometimes do not have enough time to position and activate liberators & tanks, building turrets is completely out of discussion....
Vikings are neglected by fungal&ravagers when they are in reach of the main z main army... (yes not in bronze)
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On July 14 2016 22:43 neverlast wrote: After returning after a long pause - I would like if you agree that the changes that LotV brought for Terran does not change the overall characteristic of Terran game.
In other words it is still bio+medivac and sometimes tanks or sometimes mines that is our bread and butter.
I rarely see Cyclones (1) - when are they good? upgraded banshees (2) - rarely used upgraded (fix attempt) battlecrusers (3) - not in low 1v1 and even in 4v4 as a fun class toss void/carrier is more potent Reapers (4) high utility for early game Liberators (5) interesting option ... somewhat...
so how do I transition in high util - valuable units in late game as Terran?
Cyclones are excellent now they have been fixed, they are extremely comon in TvT (more on this later) and in TvP too for early game agression coupled with tanks.
See : Forte vs herO SPL16 r3 week 3, Maru vs Hush SPL16 r3 week4 and GuMiho vs Patience SPL16 r3 week 4.
Upgraded banshees are used when going sky terran which can be a really strong strat on some maps : like Maru's demoliton of Solar in SPL round 2. Thing is Lib anti air has been nerfed since then and the style hasn't been used too much by top Koreans lately (to be fair, it was kinda OP).
BC (just as carrriers) are just there to please some fans and for the game's lore.
Reapers : kinda jsut like the old one, with more fun and more utility thx to grenades. 3 rax reapers opening is still a strong strat and is commonly used vs Zerg (see ByuN or Taeja's game in this season's GSL).
Liberators : well it's more than interesting since some people actually complain it's a must have unit, which is only partially true but anyway it's a very good unit. It's the most immediaate way to defend against Zerg's late game and it's very usefull in TvP. It works best when coupled with other mech units, tanks or mines in general, depending on what your opponent has. Its harass potential still exists even if Zerg air defense has been buffed last patch.
All in all, compared to HotS you almost always have more units in your composition, having 6 different units is actually pretty comon. For instance check Taeja vs Ragnarok GSL season 2 ro 32 final game : Taeja has marine maraunder medivacs tanks ghosts and liberators. This game is a perfect answer to your question about transition btw
Last on TvT : TvT used to be kind of very narrow composition wise, as it was tankivac marines and a handfull of vikings every game for 6 monthes. But lately, with cyclone fix, thor buff and lib nerf, mech has made a huge come back and it seems to be the new hot thing in top Korean play. We even had several mech vs mech in proleague. It's not the old sc2 mech though, it's much more aggressive and mobile.
you can watch for example :
Dream vs Forte spl16 r3 week 5 INnoVation vs Ryung spl16 r3 week 5 INnoVation vs Bunny spl 16 r3 week6 Cure vs Bunny in spl16 r3 playoff (well this one is very much like the old mech vs bio of HotS )
you can also read terrancraft's interesting take on the matter
Post Scriptum : about using mech instead of bio you have 2 options, listen to people on forums or try it yourself. I recommend the second one
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On July 14 2016 22:43 neverlast wrote: After returning after a long pause - I would like if you agree that the changes that LotV brought for Terran does not change the overall characteristic of Terran game.
In other words it is still bio+medivac and sometimes tanks or sometimes mines that is our bread and butter.
I rarely see Cyclones (1) - when are they good? upgraded banshees (2) - rarely used upgraded (fix attempt) battlecrusers (3) - not in low 1v1 and even in 4v4 as a fun class toss void/carrier is more potent Reapers (4) high utility for early game Liberators (5) interesting option ... somewhat...
so how do I transition in high util - valuable units in late game as Terran? Cyclones are very good for defending drop aggression in the early game. That's about it. They suck in the most horrible way possible in later stages of the game.
Upgraded Banshees are very good for harassment and hit-and-run attacks, but if you build towards them without first crippling your opponent economically, your opponent will just attack-move his army into your base and murder you, hence why nobody goes Sky Terran.
Nobody uses Battlecruisers. They still suck, even with their ability to teleport across to other parts of the map. Corruptors can just wipe them off the face of the earth and are easy to mass, and the Tempest, Void Ray and Carrier outclass them in almost every single way.
Reapers are basically a scout unit that you build in the early game, or as part of a very specific TvT all-in build where you overwhelm your opponent's primitive defences with 3 to 6 Reapers and outright win the game. They have no usage in any other part of the game and their ability to throw down mines isn't very useful, even for crowd control.
Liberators are the only good unit in that list, and are basically the only thing preventing TvZ's late game from becoming one-sided, much like it was in Wings of Liberty circa 2012. This is because they are the only unit that can reliably contend with most of the Zerg's mid to late game arsenal including Mutalisks, Corruptors and even Ultralisks, since Marauders and Widow Mines can't even do that now. The only thing they can't really counter are Ravagers, Hydralisks and flanking tactics. Magic box is effective at mitigating their air splash, but unlike with the Thor's air attack, it doesn't completely nullify or gimp the unit's aoe capabilities.
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On July 15 2016 00:31 scoo2r wrote: Like previous comments, bio is king in LOTV due to mobility and efficient use of minerals. There are some pretty strong mech pushes, usually relying on the liberator with tanks cyclones, bunker, marines seen in T v P or T v Z. Late game seems always just as many liberators as possible. Ravens: nerfed, BC/speed banshee require fusion core. Fusion core is seen usually its to enable the lib range upgrade which is really strong. The other main thing that's killed Mech is the LotV mining nerf. When bases have 25% less minerals overall and mine out to 50% efficiency in a matter of minutes, this gimps Mech to the point of unplayability because you mine out much sooner, can't defend aggressive expansions because you don't have the unit count to hold a defensive position, and can't be aggressive due to the incredibly high risk and low mobility of your composition.
In its very nature, Mech is an immobile, defensive, and push-based composition that is reliant on building a large, well-upgraded and expensive deathball of units. When you're not aggressively taking expansions across the map or preventing your opponent from doing so with aggressive pushes or harassment, it means that you're conceding the game.
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@ CIbull thanks for sharing your view .... sounds very interesting & true
Aber the mining nerf: it hits all races - and protoss has slow large expensive units (templer, tempests, mothership,carrier) zerg has slow broodlords, vipers... however Z has some at least alternatives (ultras).....
T's BCruiser are a bad JOKE. I would like to see a change of DPS or speed, but right now they are too expensive or too harmless. It is a shame that after so many years a unit is designed useless....
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Every expansion terran gets more and more specialized units that require very specific use and constant micro (and that would be fine if the terran race wasn't already full of such units even in wings of liberty). Instead of getting a solid and not so micro-heavy mech unit (something like adept), terran gets another fragile addition that serves a single purpose in the early game only to never be built again (cyclone). Liberator is great if you have the spare apm to constantly siege and unsiege in addition to your tanks, pre splitting the bio, controlling your ghosts.
Tier 3 continues to be non-existent, thors continue to be a heavy investment that can rarely be justified (while it could have been replaced by something that costs half the resources and has half the power of the thor - that would be useful addition to mech)
Unfortunately this expansion continued the trend to not change terran in significant ways and the games continue to be a race against the clock. If you are a terran it kind of seems that you can't calmly establish your bases and defend, you have to use use your strong mid game army to deal damage or lose the game as your opponent gets tier 3 units which are much more powerful than the terran version. It would have been cool to change this trend that is present since wol and nerf the mid game in exchange for more late game power.
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Terran defence, cost 150 precious gas and no cc means less mules, less workers to stay equal. only 1 static turret no ground static defence unlike the other races. Tier 3 units arent great, many hardcounters to it and you need to balance your army, only the bc can hit ground and air. Yes the liberator can do the same, but only sieged. Toss: Carriers, tempests, voidray, all hit ground and air without siege or any delay like the BC has. Therefore its much easier to control and kite terran units. 2 Tempest with chrono builds way faster than 1 bc and can be kited easily. You really have to outplay your opponent when going mech/sky or play bio. Much diversity....
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>Terran defence, cost 150 precious gas @PinoKotsBeer: you are referring to a Liberator, right?
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On July 21 2016 06:14 neverlast wrote: >Terran defence, cost 150 precious gas @PinoKotsBeer: you are referring to a Liberator, right? Planetary fortress
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Marine Tankivac Liberator, early Liberator range with like 4 tanks and 2-4 medivacs you're laughing
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