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Replay: TvP replay
He does a pylon rush with oracle and adept follow up. I try to defend with marines, bunkers and mines. I never managed to even leave my main, meanwhile he can expand while still suiciding adepts into my mineral line.
I am currently 0-15 against pylon rushes with adept follow up. I have never defeated this strategy so I have no idea what I should do to beat this strat.
I know my macro was bad this game but what could I have done differently to beat this strategy? I have tried going tanks in other games but then the tank splash killed my workers when he shaded to my mineral line.
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when rax in finished build bunker on low ground of ramp (skip reaper if necessary and go straight into marine) afterwards go into factory for cyclones go e-bay next for 2 missle turrents (1 by ramp / production and 1 in mineral line) if feeling pressured and then high ground command center when you feel safe (e-bay can be taken after CC if you are feeling confident)
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Theres probably different ways of handling it but i generally still reaper expand against this, but i put the CC safe on the high ground, then go for the usual 2-1-1. So stop at 16 on minerals ofc but take the second gas (i do it right after i start the factory, not sure if optimal) That way i get stim pretty fast and try to move out when i get 2 medivacs (maybe later if the protoss is still on one base)
This guys build wasn't executed perfectly but even if it was, and with a closer proxy, you make the ebay too early and that hurts macro a bit. Against one base make it at ~2.35, and if it's 2 base but still suspect an oracle, ~3.15. The turret will finish in time. You don't need to surround your turret with scvs when the oracle attacks it either
You ideally want to have the bunker in range of the pylon, but far enough that he can't target all the scvs repairing. Your marines werent grouped up so you lost some for free to the oracle and overcharges, then lost all of them trying to kill one oracle. With better building placement (for example the factory and 2nd rax closer to the bunker) you don't need to spread out marines/turrets to protect scvs building. At this point the rest is irrelevant imo (at least not for the how to counter pylon rush part), you lost too many marines already which makes it harder to move out Remember to check the MSC energy, you could have tried to damage it/pick it off + pylons from the high ground when it ran out. But then again you had less marines than you'd wanted.
Not a fan of cyclones but it's another option, going 1-1-1 after the CC and rush it makes it easier to deal with the pylons/oracle/MSC. It also allows to get tanks to zone out adepts standing too close to your ramp, while marines wait in the mineral line for shades until you move out. Mines are definitly the worst at dealing with adepts shading into your mineral line, or breaking a contain :p If you don't throw away marines vs stargate + 2 base, hes not gonna have enough adepts (without glaives nonetheless) to contain you forever.
In the end you'll be able to mine from your natural and have the tech advantage (+ his stargate is as good as dead at this point)
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Hey, MockHamill! Sorry you've been having such a hard time against this build, but never fear, the answers to this problem are pretty simple! Holding off all-ins like this is 100% about taking as little damage as possible and having a very clean and efficient build.
I will offer my advice for the build you used to defend. There are other ways to defend, but your opening is solid (and my preferred one) so let's just go from there.
First thing is first: You have to have that bunker closer to your depots and barracks. Unless you are against the best of the best, I think you can get away with building the bunker touching a supply depot or one hex away. You can stand to lose a few workers repairing; you have mules.
Second: The pylons come in at 2:47, you notice almost immediately, but you don't start actually attacking the pylons for 15 seconds. This is a huge amount of time when you are in an all-in game. Start attacking ASAP. I am pretty sure you can reach the second pylon from the high ground, no need to walk down the ramp and lose 2 marines to the overcharge. You rally one marine the wrong way, and it dies; don't do that.
Third: As mentioned before, your E-Bay is too early and you do not need to mass repair one turret vs an oracle. 95% of the time you don't need to repair at all. You also lose 2 marines to the oracle when it first comes into your base. Those two marines along with the other 3 you lost before are officially unacceptable losses.
Fourth: +1 attack on your bio does literally nothing against this push. Additionally, I would argue that it does little to nothing to help whatever transition you make from here. Instead, get a third barracks, tech lab, and stim, and make sure to get your stargate after your factory (you didn't). My main counter for this all-in (especially if they expand) is to do 2 stim-drops in 2 locations and you are virtually guaranteed considerable damage. Think of it like this: he has wasted tons of minerals on the pylon rush, some of his army died at your base, and his MSC is either dead or low on energy. He won't be able to defend 2 bases for shit.
Lastly: You need to build you buildings closer together. It makes it much easier to defend against an oracle poking around in your base, and it makes it much faster if you want to swap addons later on.
In summary, the Protoss did damage when you weren't able to keep your depots alive, when you suicided 5 marines, when you nerf your own economy with an E-Bay that was a bit too soon and a mass repair that was completely unnecessary, and with missed buildings/addons because you are panicking.
TL;DR From the Protoss perspective, this build is all about doing damage. Prevent and deny that damage, and you will come out on top. Calm down, iron out the build, and you will smash this build virtually every time, until Masters/GM anyway
I'll catch ya on the ladder!
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Thank for feedback. I still lose 70% in TvP but now I sometimes survive early game at least.
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Feel free to upload some more replays if you want help.
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Ok now I know how to defeat pylon rushes. But I still lose almost every single TvP if Protoss does not screw up, just a bit later.
Here is another replay: Replay
This game I was aiming for doing a mine drop followed by a mine/tank/viking push off 3 bases.
As usual Protoss dictates the game , I can not take my natural while he is taking 3 bases. My mine drop fails completely, for some reason the mines refuses to drop when I tell them to drop. This never happens when I practice mine dropping on a test map, but happen rather frequently on ladder.
When I finally manage to do the push it is to late, he has mass colossus and mine/tank/viking only works if you hit before he has much splash.
I hate this matchup so much.
If the game is decided early game I lose 80% of the time. If the game is decided in mid game I lose 60% of the time. If the game is decided in late game I lose 90% of the time.
It does not even matter what strat I do. I have tried bio, mech, air, cheese, mid game timing, macro games etc. Fighting Protoss if you have low APM is like trying to fight someone armed with a machine gun while you wield a really dull plastic knife.
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Ok, here we go. At 3:00, you see a canceled expansion, 2 gates and boosted cyber core researching warp gate with 2 gases. We know it's some proxy shit going on here. It will never be a proxy stargate here. This is 100% proxy robo or hidden twilight with blink or DTs.
Your reaper should ALWAYS scout for proxies here, around your 3rd, 4th or some other popular places.
Since we don't know what's coming I really like building a starport ASAP and build a liberator for defense. I guess we can build 2 turrets here, 1 at your mineral line and 1 at your ramp in case of DTs but building 6 of them is really bad here.
Between 4:00 and 8:00 you build like 7 SCVs, keep building them and over saturate your main so you can saturate your natural really fast when you can take it.
When you take your natural you are really far behind so attacking is your worst option here. You need to build an army and play super defensive, maybe try to harass but DON'T attack. However, you do decide to attack here and if you do so you really really need to wait until drilling claws is done. The game is over after the engagement at 13:45 so I stopped watching here.
I think you should practice building SCVs. If you wanna improve your biggest win is to learn to continue building SCVs even if you are under attack.
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On September 28 2016 06:34 Kvassten wrote: Ok, here we go. At 3:00, you see a canceled expansion, 2 gates and boosted cyber core researching warp gate with 2 gases. We know it's some proxy shit going on here. It will never be a proxy stargate here. This is 100% proxy robo or hidden twilight with blink or DTs.
Your reaper should ALWAYS scout for proxies here, around your 3rd, 4th or some other popular places.
Since we don't know what's coming I really like building a starport ASAP and build a liberator for defense. I guess we can build 2 turrets here, 1 at your mineral line and 1 at your ramp in case of DTs but building 6 of them is really bad here.
Between 4:00 and 8:00 you build like 7 SCVs, keep building them and over saturate your main so you can saturate your natural really fast when you can take it.
When you take your natural you are really far behind so attacking is your worst option here. You need to build an army and play super defensive, maybe try to harass but DON'T attack. However, you do decide to attack here and if you do so you really really need to wait until drilling claws is done. The game is over after the engagement at 13:45 so I stopped watching here.
I think you should practice building SCVs. If you wanna improve your biggest win is to learn to continue building SCVs even if you are under attack.
How do you know it cant be proxy stargate? I had a guy do that to me with 2 gates as well just yesterday. If they go for Void rays instead of oracles, they kill your wall and render the lib worthless too so you really need to scout the proxy to know what to build.
Scouting protoss is definetly the hardest thing in TvP for me. What i do is i scv scout after the rax, then that same scv scouts for proxies when coming back if the toss is one base. That way the reaper is the one scouting for the natural and can force the mothership core/adept to stay at home longer and even kill probes if he skips it/decides to pylon rush anyway.
Not losing the reaper also allows you to scout if he transitions, gets a second base or not later on. An scv generally will run in once and die
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On September 28 2016 06:37 ArtyK wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2016 06:34 Kvassten wrote: Ok, here we go. At 3:00, you see a canceled expansion, 2 gates and boosted cyber core researching warp gate with 2 gases. We know it's some proxy shit going on here. It will never be a proxy stargate here. This is 100% proxy robo or hidden twilight with blink or DTs.
Your reaper should ALWAYS scout for proxies here, around your 3rd, 4th or some other popular places.
Since we don't know what's coming I really like building a starport ASAP and build a liberator for defense. I guess we can build 2 turrets here, 1 at your mineral line and 1 at your ramp in case of DTs but building 6 of them is really bad here.
Between 4:00 and 8:00 you build like 7 SCVs, keep building them and over saturate your main so you can saturate your natural really fast when you can take it.
When you take your natural you are really far behind so attacking is your worst option here. You need to build an army and play super defensive, maybe try to harass but DON'T attack. However, you do decide to attack here and if you do so you really really need to wait until drilling claws is done. The game is over after the engagement at 13:45 so I stopped watching here.
I think you should practice building SCVs. If you wanna improve your biggest win is to learn to continue building SCVs even if you are under attack.
How do you know it cant be proxy stargate? I had a guy do that to me with 2 gates as well just yesterday. They can even go for Void rays instead of oracles, kill your wall and render the lib worthless. Scouting protoss is definetly the hardest thing in TvP for me.
Well I guess some players can trick you by researching warp gate tech but I rarely see it so I would assume anything but stargate.
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On September 28 2016 06:55 Kvassten wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2016 06:37 ArtyK wrote:On September 28 2016 06:34 Kvassten wrote: Ok, here we go. At 3:00, you see a canceled expansion, 2 gates and boosted cyber core researching warp gate with 2 gases. We know it's some proxy shit going on here. It will never be a proxy stargate here. This is 100% proxy robo or hidden twilight with blink or DTs.
Your reaper should ALWAYS scout for proxies here, around your 3rd, 4th or some other popular places.
Since we don't know what's coming I really like building a starport ASAP and build a liberator for defense. I guess we can build 2 turrets here, 1 at your mineral line and 1 at your ramp in case of DTs but building 6 of them is really bad here.
Between 4:00 and 8:00 you build like 7 SCVs, keep building them and over saturate your main so you can saturate your natural really fast when you can take it.
When you take your natural you are really far behind so attacking is your worst option here. You need to build an army and play super defensive, maybe try to harass but DON'T attack. However, you do decide to attack here and if you do so you really really need to wait until drilling claws is done. The game is over after the engagement at 13:45 so I stopped watching here.
I think you should practice building SCVs. If you wanna improve your biggest win is to learn to continue building SCVs even if you are under attack.
How do you know it cant be proxy stargate? I had a guy do that to me with 2 gates as well just yesterday. They can even go for Void rays instead of oracles, kill your wall and render the lib worthless. Scouting protoss is definetly the hardest thing in TvP for me. Well I guess some players can trick you by researching warp gate tech but I rarely see it so I would assume anything but stargate.
who skips warpgate for as long as the 3rd minute mark lol, or did you mean chrono?
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On September 28 2016 06:57 ArtyK wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2016 06:55 Kvassten wrote:On September 28 2016 06:37 ArtyK wrote:On September 28 2016 06:34 Kvassten wrote: Ok, here we go. At 3:00, you see a canceled expansion, 2 gates and boosted cyber core researching warp gate with 2 gases. We know it's some proxy shit going on here. It will never be a proxy stargate here. This is 100% proxy robo or hidden twilight with blink or DTs.
Your reaper should ALWAYS scout for proxies here, around your 3rd, 4th or some other popular places.
Since we don't know what's coming I really like building a starport ASAP and build a liberator for defense. I guess we can build 2 turrets here, 1 at your mineral line and 1 at your ramp in case of DTs but building 6 of them is really bad here.
Between 4:00 and 8:00 you build like 7 SCVs, keep building them and over saturate your main so you can saturate your natural really fast when you can take it.
When you take your natural you are really far behind so attacking is your worst option here. You need to build an army and play super defensive, maybe try to harass but DON'T attack. However, you do decide to attack here and if you do so you really really need to wait until drilling claws is done. The game is over after the engagement at 13:45 so I stopped watching here.
I think you should practice building SCVs. If you wanna improve your biggest win is to learn to continue building SCVs even if you are under attack.
How do you know it cant be proxy stargate? I had a guy do that to me with 2 gates as well just yesterday. They can even go for Void rays instead of oracles, kill your wall and render the lib worthless. Scouting protoss is definetly the hardest thing in TvP for me. Well I guess some players can trick you by researching warp gate tech but I rarely see it so I would assume anything but stargate. who skips warpgate for as long as the 3rd minute mark lol, or did you mean chrono?
The canceled expansion delays everything a lot so 3 mins isn't that late. I might be wrong here because I've never seen anyone proxy after a canceled expansion :S
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On September 28 2016 07:19 Kvassten wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2016 06:57 ArtyK wrote:On September 28 2016 06:55 Kvassten wrote:On September 28 2016 06:37 ArtyK wrote:On September 28 2016 06:34 Kvassten wrote: Ok, here we go. At 3:00, you see a canceled expansion, 2 gates and boosted cyber core researching warp gate with 2 gases. We know it's some proxy shit going on here. It will never be a proxy stargate here. This is 100% proxy robo or hidden twilight with blink or DTs.
Your reaper should ALWAYS scout for proxies here, around your 3rd, 4th or some other popular places.
Since we don't know what's coming I really like building a starport ASAP and build a liberator for defense. I guess we can build 2 turrets here, 1 at your mineral line and 1 at your ramp in case of DTs but building 6 of them is really bad here.
Between 4:00 and 8:00 you build like 7 SCVs, keep building them and over saturate your main so you can saturate your natural really fast when you can take it.
When you take your natural you are really far behind so attacking is your worst option here. You need to build an army and play super defensive, maybe try to harass but DON'T attack. However, you do decide to attack here and if you do so you really really need to wait until drilling claws is done. The game is over after the engagement at 13:45 so I stopped watching here.
I think you should practice building SCVs. If you wanna improve your biggest win is to learn to continue building SCVs even if you are under attack.
How do you know it cant be proxy stargate? I had a guy do that to me with 2 gates as well just yesterday. They can even go for Void rays instead of oracles, kill your wall and render the lib worthless. Scouting protoss is definetly the hardest thing in TvP for me. Well I guess some players can trick you by researching warp gate tech but I rarely see it so I would assume anything but stargate. who skips warpgate for as long as the 3rd minute mark lol, or did you mean chrono? The canceled expansion delays everything a lot so 3 mins isn't that late. I might be wrong here because I've never seen anyone proxy after a canceled expansion :S
50 gas for warpgate when the guy has 2 gases, he probably can afford it with any build. That's also why scouting for the msc with scv/reaper is important because it tells you if the guy can already have a robo/twilight/stargate building somewhere on the map or not yet. Should still scout for proxy pylon/gate anyway though
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I agree, the biggest tell of a proxy here is the lack of msc. Maybe you have to find the proxy to be sure how to react but building 6 turrets is not the correct response.
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On September 28 2016 04:25 MockHamill wrote:Ok now I know how to defeat pylon rushes. But I still lose almost every single TvP if Protoss does not screw up, just a bit later. Here is another replay:ReplayThis game I was aiming for doing a mine drop followed by a mine/tank/viking push off 3 bases. As usual Protoss dictates the game , I can not take my natural while he is taking 3 bases. My mine drop fails completely, for some reason the mines refuses to drop when I tell them to drop. This never happens when I practice mine dropping on a test map, but happen rather frequently on ladder. When I finally manage to do the push it is to late, he has mass colossus and mine/tank/viking only works if you hit before he has much splash. I hate this matchup so much. If the game is decided early game I lose 80% of the time. If the game is decided in mid game I lose 60% of the time. If the game is decided in late game I lose 90% of the time. It does not even matter what strat I do. I have tried bio, mech, air, cheese, mid game timing, macro games etc. Fighting Protoss if you have low APM is like trying to fight someone armed with a machine gun while you wield a really dull plastic knife.
Alright got time to watch the game :
You can't take your natural while hes taking 3 bases? Problems appeared way earlier.
You didn't produce a marine/reaper out of your rax before you made the reactor even though you had time, so i'ts harder to scout for proxies. Your scv sees the nexus cancel, warpgate chronoed, 2 gates and no msc (in this case a reaper opening would have been good to kill some probes, and see if he actually transitions later, like i mentionned in one of the posts above.) At this point of the game you don't need to make a reaper anymore with what you've seen.
Now with the infos you gathered, theres a good chance it's at least a proxy gateway somewhere. Let's assume you can't find it to make things complicated. You can delay your ebay for more production : - His tech is late because he opened nexus first (and he was afk for 1 minute), so you have enough time to get a mine in your mineral line before any oracle show up. No need for a bunker there either. - You have 2 CCs vs 1 base, so you don't need to mule like a madman, that's enough scans for dt's.
The possible real threats are therefore : immortal, blink or voidray. All of which are probably easier to counter with a non-mech opening.
But now onto the main problem which isn't related to the matchup : macro. Look at your money from the moment you make that bunker and ebay until the point where the toss pokes at your ramp. You never went below 200 minerals, even with those 2 - unnecessary at the time - buildings, and your ressources steadily rose towards 1000 minerals. Your second gas was late as well considering you went for double factory.
Say you still go mech. If you actually spent that money, by the time the toss got there you could have had at least 2 starport units done, a couple tanks and the mines. And it doesn't require massive apms to do so on one base if you just pay attention to your bank. Improving your macro at least in the first 5 minutes of the games comes before learning how to counter each type of proxies. You'd maybe win 1 more TvP out of 10 if you did the latter, while if you just looked top right more often you'd probably win 2-3 more. AND it's less time consuming than figuring out how to deal with each chapter of the great book of protoss bs, because let me tell you, i still haven't finished it.
Rest of the game is irrelevant as it was already impacted so much by lack of production. But i will say that the guy having 3 nexus makes little sense with his 29 probes, and looking at the supply makes me disagree with Kvassten saying you were behind at this point. You even had your own 3rd building so it's an even game as far as LOTV TvP goes.
Oh and take the gold as your third on this map, then take the 4th next to it, much easier to hold than spreading out horizontally.
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Ok I got a follow-up question.
If you build a low ground bunker in order to protect yourself against pylon rushes what is the production sequence for the barrack?
Is it a) marine-marine - reactor (since you need 2 marines for the bunker) or b) reaper - marine - reactor or c) reaper - reactor?
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On September 30 2016 00:47 MockHamill wrote: Ok I got a follow-up question.
If you build a low ground bunker in order to protect yourself against pylon rushes what is the production sequence for the barrack?
Is it a) marine-marine - reactor (since you need 2 marines for the bunker) or b) reaper - marine - reactor or c) reaper - reactor?
Reactor after the first unit, wether it is a reaper or a marine. The bunker should already scare off most protosses, and if you opened reaper they have to keep their adept at home.
If you don't forget to build everything on time, the first 2 marines will pop out of the reactor and reach the bunker right before the msc arrives on small maps.
If he goes for it anyway, you're gonna need like 4 scvs ready to repair when the pylons finish. Doens't matter if he targets the scvs, you're ahead on eco with 2 orbitals anyway.
Try to focus the adept and msc while inside the bunker. It takes too long to kill the pylons and he will just use his second overcharge on the full hp one. Doesn't mean you should get out of the bunker to try and chase units though :p If the bunker still goes down and the overcharge isnt over, be ready to unload the marines out of range.
Now say the guy microed properly and didn't lose the adept/msc, his overcharges were used on a bunker and scvs most of the time, instead of getting a reactor and 2 depots. If he tries to ignore the bunker and just go for reactor/depots you can repair those as well ofc
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