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Hello,
I play as zerg in Wings of liberty extension and currently diamond tier 3.
Everyday, 4 games out of 5 that I play versus a Terran, They always build an engineering bay in my second base to deny it, some build it at 90% then cancel it later and some literally build it in my second base. Then they follow that up with mass marines, or hellions or marauders.
Same goes for all protoss. They build a pylon in my 2nd base just to deny it.
Could anyone suggest to me how to counter this kind of cheese?
Thank you in advance,
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It is not cheese. They are punishing you for being greedy.
Either build your pool earlier or build your second at the location of your third.
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On September 14 2016 20:38 Zedd wrote: It is not cheese. They are punishing you for being greedy.
Either build your pool earlier or build your second at the location of your third.
I always 15 pool 15 hatch and yet they cheese it.
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Well obviously WoL has quite an agressive meta and you have to adopt by playing safely. As Zedd already told, building your second base in another location is a common answer to any kind of block. That makes you more vulnerable against any follow up all-ins like marauder/hellion, but you have to take into account, that they also make an investment with the block which makes their push a little less threatening. You should definitely try to get your 2 bases as much saturated as possible without dying and then Ling/baneling/Queen is the best answer to most 1 base cheese. You may even skip the banelings and add more lings or roaches instead, depending on what the terran is doing. The other way is to delay you natural, build some lings to kill the block and then build a hatch there. That makes your defense stronger, because you can quickly connect you bases with creep and queens can easily defend both bases. If you really need to hurry, because of a one base cheese, build a spine crawler, if it is reaper near your eco line or cliff, if it is not reaper near the ramp to your natural. Later you can move it to your natural. You should consider building a wall with evolution chambers and roach warrens, if the terran is building an early hellion based style without marauders on 2 base. This does also mostly apply in ZvP, but I cant give you any specific advice in that regard.
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Oh I didnt noticed its WoL :D
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On September 14 2016 20:19 Greg_Stream wrote: Hello,
I play as zerg in Wings of liberty extension and currently diamond tier 3.
Everyday, 4 games out of 5 that I play versus a Terran, They always build an engineering bay in my second base to deny it, some build it at 90% then cancel it later and some literally build it in my second base. Then they follow that up with mass marries, or hellions or marauders.
Same goes for all protoss. They build a pylon in my 2nd base just to deny it.
Could anyone suggest to me how to counter this kind of cheese?
Thank you in advance,
The way I dealt with this back in ye olden days was to go standard 14 pool, 13 gas into early speedling against terran so I could have greater flexibility after expanding on the back off of 6 or so lings to check the terran front. The delay on your second base isn't significant when compared to the terran that is until that engineering bay gets cancelled. The costs of maintaining that bay delays their second by some amount of time too and you can pressure their expansion plans wit those speedlings and the threat of a roach all-in / a baneling-bust if you make enough units.
This expo block really means that there's going to be a two base timing attack or a one base all-in around 6-8 minutes into the game though so alternatively you can defend this timing-attack and follow that defence up with some kind of harass with nydus worm / baneling overlord drops.
I was working on a two base muta play into four base ling muta with a transition to broodlord infestor to simply deal directly with medivacs and banshees and then just steamroll them with the ultralisk switch, but the gas timing is such that a non greedy two base terran will hit you first so it's sometimes not that great unless you can hold them off with lings and spines.
If you scout hellions put a few crawlers around your expo and try to block the main with two queens and an evochamber. It's better than going for roaches. The trap with roaches is in the supply and gas cost delaying your lair and other tech plus terran has marauders which with stim and tank support just stomp on roaches. You never want too many roaches, but some can help.
You can also gas into speedlings into double expand once the engie bay is dealt with, but you'll have to grab evo chambers and make a few spores as well as spread a lot of creep to pre-empt any shenanigans because the lair will be delayed significantly.
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Thank you so much guys for this very long and amazing analysis. Suddenly now it makes sense to me! investing into ling speed/bane,queens, walling up 2nd ramp and spore if necessary, will give me map control right ? Hence I could safely switch to mutas to get even more map control and keep him at his base defending whilst i drone up. I will play tonight some games and hopefully i get this cheese then let you guys how it went.
So Many thanks to all of you guys!! Very useful and deep answers <3
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You can try to take your Second at your Third while bumping some Lings to "clean" your Natural. But be careful because the idea behind what they do is not only delay your Natural Expansion, but also try to push faster if you put it at your third.
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On September 15 2016 05:28 Sogetsu wrote: You can try to take your Second at your Third while bumping some Lings to "clean" your Natural. But be careful because the idea behind what they do is not only delay your Natural Expansion, but also try to push faster if you put it at your third.
Thanks for the tip! It is true what you said! I actually managed yesterday to take a game by pulling off 6 queens, into roach burrow. Though he had marauders I kept forcing him to scan instead of mule and that set my macro way ahead and spammed even more roaches. It felt so good to when he resigned without even throwing a gg xD
Thank you guys for all tips!! you are the best <3
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Thought about this for a bit, made some edits.
Don't do anything too crazy against engi-block. Have your second overlord go to your natural, it should just barely spot the ebay when it goes down. Remember that to block you on 2p maps back in WoL Terran has to send his worker over at around 9-11 supply, so he takes an eco hit.
As soon as you see it go down send 2 drones to your natural and target down the SCV. The faster you can do this, the lower HP the ebay will have meaning the faster you can make the opponent cancel it.
If you're too late then just go gas -> pool reactively, mine 100 gas for speed, and get 2 sets of lings to cancel the ebay. Play normally from there.
Remember that the point of an ebay block is to tilt you by throwing you off your entire build from the getgo. Don't give in to the rage, lol, and prepare the most minimal, conservative reaction against it, and you'll deflect it while being completely even with Terran. Yes, you didn't get to hatch first (go hatch first in ZvT, not pool first! And if you're going 15 pool, you can still send 2 workers to snipe the SCV. Use your second overlord man), but the opponent is behind as well.
Also, to be quite frank, what other people in this thread are saying is pretty poor advice and has nothing to do with your question, which is deflecting an engi-block.
What Zedd is saying is poor advice for the situation (not wrong, this just isn't LotV, as he said). There is nothing greedy about going hatch first, let alone 15p, 15h. And Terran players who engi-block in WoL aren't doing it as a reaction (unless they're doing that gosu Flash opener from HotS), that is their plan from the getgo.
Zedd's advice to take the third can work, but you don't have to do that and shouldn't if you're being 1 based in WoL (taking the third as your second base means you're going to have an extremely hard time holding a 1 base all-in). Seeing the block in time is key.
Madkipz wrote a big write-up on a GAMEPLAN you can use, but he makes a lot of assumptions about why you are being engi-blocked. A Terran most of the times wants to engi-block you because it TILTS you (they're dicks, and might cheese, but you can't assume that).
Remember that your question is about engi-blocking, not about how to play the entire matchup. Just deal with the block in the most CONSERVATIVE way possible, and don't deviate from your plan just because of it, and you will be just fine.
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On September 16 2016 06:53 Qwyn wrote: Don't do anything too crazy against engi-block. Have your second overlord go to your natural, it should just barely spot the ebay when it goes down. Remember that to block you on 2p maps back in WoL Terran has to send his worker over at around 9-11 supply, so he takes an eco hit.
As soon as you see it go down send 2 drones to your natural and target down the SCV. The faster you can do this, the lower HP the ebay will have meaning the faster you can make the opponent cancel it.
If you're too late then just go gas -> pool reactively, mine 100 gas for speed, and get 2 sets of lings to cancel the ebay. Play normally from there.
Remember that the point of an ebay block is to tilt you by throwing you off your entire build from the getgo. Don't give in to the rage, lol, and prepare the most minimal, conservative reaction against it, and you'll deflect it while being completely even with Terran. Yes, you didn't get to hatch first (go hatch first in ZvT, not pool first! And if you're going 15 pool, you can still send 2 workers to snipe the SCV. Use your second overlord man), but the opponent is behind as well.
Also, to be quite frank, what other people in this thread are saying is pretty poor advice and has nothing to do with your question, which is deflecting an engi-block.
What Zedd is saying is wrong IMO (even if he assumed it to be LOTV). There is nothing greedy about going hatch first, let alone 15p, 15h. And Terran players who engi-block aren't doing it as a reaction, that is their plan from the getgo. His advice to take the third can work, but you don't have to do that and shouldn't if you're being 1 based. Seeing the block in time is key.
Madkipz wrote a big write-up on a GAMEPLAN you can use, but he makes a lot of assumptions about why you are being engi-blocked. A Terran most of the times wants to engi-block you because it TILTS you (they're dicks, and might cheese, but you can't assume that).
Remember that your question is about engi-blocking, not about how to play the entire matchup. Just deal with the block in the most CONSERVATIVE way possible, and don't deviate from your plan just because of it, and you will be just fine.
Thank you very much for the tips! I like the idea of sending 2 drones.This time I will try sending 2 drones to snipe the scv/probe as soon as he stops by my second base. Btw I always have 9/10 overlord sent to my natural so yeah I always see them. Tbh I do not rage against this cheap moves. I am seriously starting to enjoy them, In fact I managed to pull off some unexpected strats to the opponent; I did a double nydius to a terran player behind his main; and infestors and bane versus another terran and took control of his thors it was so lmao xD; One base roach nydius to a protoss. So far It is working well, except some players they seemed stronger and survive my attack neverthless killing so many pylons at their bases after a successful nydius, I probably should have focused workers instead?!
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On September 17 2016 00:44 Greg_Stream wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2016 06:53 Qwyn wrote: Don't do anything too crazy against engi-block. Have your second overlord go to your natural, it should just barely spot the ebay when it goes down. Remember that to block you on 2p maps back in WoL Terran has to send his worker over at around 9-11 supply, so he takes an eco hit.
As soon as you see it go down send 2 drones to your natural and target down the SCV. The faster you can do this, the lower HP the ebay will have meaning the faster you can make the opponent cancel it.
If you're too late then just go gas -> pool reactively, mine 100 gas for speed, and get 2 sets of lings to cancel the ebay. Play normally from there.
Remember that the point of an ebay block is to tilt you by throwing you off your entire build from the getgo. Don't give in to the rage, lol, and prepare the most minimal, conservative reaction against it, and you'll deflect it while being completely even with Terran. Yes, you didn't get to hatch first (go hatch first in ZvT, not pool first! And if you're going 15 pool, you can still send 2 workers to snipe the SCV. Use your second overlord man), but the opponent is behind as well.
Also, to be quite frank, what other people in this thread are saying is pretty poor advice and has nothing to do with your question, which is deflecting an engi-block.
What Zedd is saying is wrong IMO (even if he assumed it to be LOTV). There is nothing greedy about going hatch first, let alone 15p, 15h. And Terran players who engi-block aren't doing it as a reaction, that is their plan from the getgo. His advice to take the third can work, but you don't have to do that and shouldn't if you're being 1 based. Seeing the block in time is key.
Madkipz wrote a big write-up on a GAMEPLAN you can use, but he makes a lot of assumptions about why you are being engi-blocked. A Terran most of the times wants to engi-block you because it TILTS you (they're dicks, and might cheese, but you can't assume that).
Remember that your question is about engi-blocking, not about how to play the entire matchup. Just deal with the block in the most CONSERVATIVE way possible, and don't deviate from your plan just because of it, and you will be just fine. Thank you very much for the tips! I like the idea of sending 2 drones.This time I will try sending 2 drones to snipe the scv/probe as soon as he stops by my second base. Btw I always have 9/10 overlord sent to my natural so yeah I always see them. Tbh I do not rage against this cheap moves. I am seriously starting to enjoy them, In fact I managed to pull off some unexpected strats to the opponent; I did a double nydius to a terran player behind his main; and infestors and bane versus another terran and took control of his thors it was so lmao xD; One base roach nydius to a protoss. So far It is working well, except some players they seemed stronger and survive my attack neverthless killing so many pylons at their bases after a successful nydius, I probably should have focused workers instead?!
One base all-in can work, but they are all-in, and don't really work as a standard approach to the ladder. if your aim is to advance in league you should try doing two base timing attacks into expands instead.
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