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Protoss play aggressives BO. Terran do the same whith fast drop play style. In HOTS Demuslim create an interesting BO whith fast E-bay. I try to adapt this BO to LOTV.
14 0:18 Supply Depot 16 0:40 Barracks 1 marine before reactor (1) 17 0:55 Refinery 18 1:26 Orbital Command 19 1:39 Command Center 19 1:48 Supply Depot (I just indicate the 2 first supply) 19 1:50 Barracks Reactor Marine x2 only on this rax until 4 :30 21 2:18 Bunker Without this bunker it’s hard to defend stalker 24 2:33 Engineering Bay 27 2:51 Orbital Command 28 3:02 Barracks It’s possible to play aggressively and less macro (2) 30 3:09 Missile Turret 30 3:12 Missile Turret 34 3:33 Barracks 40 3:51 Barracks Tech Lab 41 3:59 Infantry Weapons Level 1 45 4:11 Stimpack 46 4:21 Barracks Reactor 49 4:36 Command Center In your B1 58 5:00 Refinery 58 5:02 Refinery 59 5:11 Barracks 59 5:13 Barracks 61 5:20 Factory 69 5:39 Refinery 77 5:58 Infantry Armor Level 1 77 6:01 Barracks Tech Lab 77 6:02 Barracks Tech Lab 79 6:12 Combat Shields Start produce Marauder 79 6:17 Factory Reactor Switch reactor on starport 87 6:23 Starport X2 medivac and after Liberator 102 6:47 Planetary Fortress When shields finish go push (7 :20-7 :40) (3)
(1) It’s possible to do reaper with 16 Rax/16 Refinery. Reaper have to see the first tech of protoss. If you see you don’t need Turret you can go fast to the next step. My problem is when you delay turret at what timing you have to produce them? Another problem is sometime reaper see nothing… (2) Here you can produce refinery and go to medivac double drop but you will delay your 3CC. If you medivac skill its good GO. (3) 3CC can be an orbital but hard to defend. Because you want to defend with your reprod B1 and B2 and push with you main army.
During the push trade your army the much as you can and try to down B3 (and B4 if protoss greed). After the push: - reproduce you army - take you B4 - 2 more Rax and a starport - Check SCV count on each base. - Upgrade 1 other E-bay and Armory - Re push at 10 minutes with a drop in B1 of protoss to create double front. Frontal you have Liberator. Normally protoss try to take B3 or B4. Your mission it’s to destroy B3 or B4 and trade army.
GGtracker http://ggtracker.com/matches/6956575
Demuslim link HOTS http://imbabuilds.com/hots-terran/hots-tvp/tvp-demuslims-reaper-fe/
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how do you play safe macro pvt as protoss? safe tvp is easy as terran imo
User was warned for this post
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If it's easy why a lot of terran loose versus early DT, early oracle, adept harass? Why terran take B3 after protoss and not before like HOTS. TvP or PvT early game it's decide by protoss imo. Exemple of good PvT BO: Phoenix adept Standard build Neeb (PvT Economic)
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i feel dubious about not pressuring protoss until 7 minutes, you might be safe but so is he
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I think in SC2 you have 3 types of pressuring your opponent: 1/ Attack the more faster and permanently (harrass units or drop it's good for that) 2/ Tech fast whith a strong timming attack (your opponent know and have to react) 3/ Take bases faster then him (submerge your opponent with your macro)
I think my proposition is to supress all agressivity for a strong macro timing push with a lot of army and reprod (points 2 and 3). This style of play suit better for casual player like me.
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On February 06 2017 17:42 Diamadoshikiller wrote: If it's easy why a lot of terran loose versus early DT, early oracle, adept harass? Why terran take B3 after protoss and not before like HOTS. TvP or PvT early game it's decide by protoss imo. Exemple of good PvT BO: Phoenix adept Standard build Neeb (PvT Economic) protoss used to take base 3 b4 the 2 base tank meta now protoss turtles on 2 base. i havent seen a gsl lvl terran straight out die to an oracle, dts or adept harass in ages. Early game is decided by terran, im not sure how you think protoss has the control. Protoss has to counter the Terran composition not vice versa early-midgame. There are exceptions like proxy oracle and pylon rush ofc but u never go into a game an see a 1 gate expand and see anything that would stop you from opening how you want, be it widow mine marine drop. 16 marine drop. widow mine into liberator etc..
as for pheonix adept it is a good biuld that can do very well, but its not something u can do every game because it has clear weaknesses that the Terran can abuse.
making a guide on how to play safe as terran when the tvp winrate is 60% seems kinda silly. scout with reaper, blind turrets if something is off gg
atm terran is by far the safest race. their turtle potential is super broken
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Thanks for sharing your thoughts, but your protoss balancetalk is out of place in a topic like this. Try it somewhere else.
Thumbs up for the guide.
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Thanks for sharing your thoughts SwiftRH. This topics it's also a discussions too. You talk about a BO very well describ in terrancraft topic. Link: https://terrancraft.com/2017/01/13/tvp-on-the-verge-of-a-metagame-shift/
I will quote a part of this link: "First, Protoss always take an earlier third base than Terran in Legacy of the Void, and it has been considered a norm. Second, Protoss composition is Gateway heavy, as Protoss tend to favor mineral heavy builds. This is consistent with the first point that Protoss take an early third by not being tech heavy. Third, Protoss prefer to be the defender, and aggressive builds are becoming less common."
In conclusion protoss player do a meta (old meta), terran respond by another meta. Tomorrow protoss will do another meta crush terran meta etc... The BO i propose for protoss and the exeptions you take in exemple it's not in the old meta of protoss and have BIG similarity. Aggressivity in the early game with tech unit. For that oracle and phoenix with adept were the best choice imo.
My experience againts neeb BO like when i do drop mine into tank push it's not good. I have to stay at home and (no drop, mine for defence). During the push phoenix up all my tank. During this time adept... i try to focus phoenix but adept destroy my marines. Perhaps i'm not a GSL pro.
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adepts with prism, 3 colossi 2base push and several more builds will kill you, obs scout 3rd CC before starport and it will be a freewin for him.
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Schwarzenegger finally to be safe i have too scout the tech of protoss with reaper to decide the timing of ebay/turret. If i see a robot first around 2:40, it's possible to delay Ebay and do more faster RAX 2 and RAX 3 and have stim and units faster. Like that it's will be possible to counter adept prism all'in.
For 3 colossi 2 base push do you know the timing because for me it's around 7:40. I just have to flank his army and pull some boys (SCV). When you have a lot of bioball flank it's really effective against colossi.
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Before i do this build like other player i do progammer builds. But one day i took a step back on my way to play the TvP.
I ask me what style i want play in TvP? I like MMM , i dislike bio/mech or Mech
Second, in SC2 what is the three basics to performed to be a top diamond? 1/ MACRO 2/ SCOUT and take informations (map control) and adapt 3/ Multitasking
Third when this three steps it's good, work basic micro of MMM.
When you play macro your goal it's to haverst on 3 bases quickly and safely. For that you will tech slowly and take bases fast. when you play macro you create your base on timing. For the second base it's the reaper expand timing (1:35-1:45) gaz first or not. But for B3 and B4 when i try to found it was not clear.
If you produce worker permanently on your 2 base you will saturated them at 44 SCVs. A this moment you be able to have you third finish on his slot. This timing is around 5:15-5:45. We need to create CC3 between 4:00-5:00. Finaly when terran not create a CC before 5:30 they are 2 bases all-in.
Macro terran have to create a B4 to keep harverst on 3 bases, 1 minute before B1 and B2 have less mineral. It's around 9:00-10:00.
For me MMM timing it's: - 32 supply or Marines/marauder (few) - 2 medivac - Stim/combat shield/+1 attack like HOTS...
We need 32 supply of marine/marauder to double front a protoss with a fast B3 (before 5:15) or go frontal into an overcharge protoss with greedy fast tech.
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On February 13 2017 03:06 Diamadoshikiller wrote: Before i do this build like other player i do progammer builds. But one day i took a step back on my way to play the TvP.
I ask me what style i want play in TvP? I like MMM , i dislike bio/mech or Mech
Second, in SC2 what is the three basics to performed to be a top diamond? 1/ MACRO 2/ SCOUT and take informations (map control) and adapt 3/ Multitasking
Third when this three steps it's good, work basic micro of MMM.
When you play macro your goal it's to haverst on 3 bases quickly and safely. For that you will tech slowly and take bases fast. when you play macro you create your base on timing. For the second base it's the reaper expand timing (1:35-1:45) gaz first or not. But for B3 and B4 when i try to found it was not clear.
If you produce worker permanently on your 2 base you will saturated them at 44 SCVs. A this moment you be able to have you third finish on his slot. This timing is around 5:15-5:45. We need to create CC3 between 4:00-5:00. Finaly when terran not create a CC before 5:30 they are 2 bases all-in.
Macro terran have to create a B4 to keep harverst on 3 bases, 1 minute before B1 and B2 have less mineral. It's around 9:00-10:00. i dont understand what your point is
this is just basic information to any subpar player
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The question is when you play do you start your third between 4:00-5:00?
When i see progamer and my game when i do: 2-1-1 3CC progamer (6:00-6:30) ; me(6:30-7:00) 1-1-1 3CC progamer (6:20-7:20); me (7:00-8:00) 2 bases all-in...? It's impossible to play macro in TvP or progamer base their game on micro skill?
ruypture say it's basics informations to any subpar player but basics it's also for good player of SC2. And i never see in this forum or other (exept error on my part) the timing of CCs in LOTV for terran.
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Against which builds is this advantageous against? And on the contrary which builds is it disadvantageous against?
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On February 13 2017 09:07 foggymurk wrote: Against which builds is this advantageous against? And on the contrary which builds is it disadvantageous against?
1. none
2. all
thast my honest opinion
no one is going to play tvp this safe. if i was the toss i would just make probes and laugh at ur bunker at ultra early ebay, no mine drop and nothing on the map until min 7. no offense op but Imo u are essentially just banking on not getting warp gate pressured, not gettin proxy immortaled, not getting oracled (you are not safe with missile turrets, he will scout ur single rax and kill you with voidrays), then banking on him not making units or something, u give him enough time to get a third and have it fully kick in, like i would not be surprised if when u faced a good protoss player, they would take a third and manage to kill you on two bases with gw units. i would be really surprised if demuslim actually played like this, this is so hyper safe. its so safe, that its probably not even safe, if that makes any sense. what good is 2 turrets at the mineral lines and a bunker if you cant defend an oracle with units when it pops, and he can just camp ur rax and rally more oracles. 1 base warp prism atack? 2 base for that matter? you need units and unit producing structures, OP.
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Actually i make some ajustement on my build with the reaper scout i talk before. The reaper help to modulate when ebay and turret are create. I seem more like that whith little change. link: http://lotv.spawningtool.com/build/46007/ I will update my post ASAP.
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