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On September 18 2013 19:20 Schelim wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2013 19:18 Morphage wrote: Eventhough Demuslim is quite talented, I think he'll never have what it takes to go far in a tournament. At this point he's just a good streamer and that's it. in other words, he's a foreigner. yeah, i agree. Good definition. Imo its almost the maximum you could get from non-korean training. (Naniwa has some good runs in tournaments, so he is the maximum).
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On September 18 2013 20:06 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2013 15:17 NarutO wrote: This is gold. I didnt see the games but if DemusliM was greedy he took a chance. Suppy seemed to either anticipate it or scout (as said didnt see games) and took his chance to beat him there. I can imagine DemusliM being upset about his loss but I feel he is the last person to carry it out on his teammate.
DemusliM would have taken the same chance if you give it to him I can guarantee and you know why? His job is to win, not to be a jolly fellow to his teammate. When the game is on he is just another Zerg. I played DemusliM in EPS when we were mates. He didnt lose but he is a very good Person and while he knew we would play in EPS he did still help me out in TvT etc. Demuslim just did what he does every single tvz and every person on earth knows it: The cc first no scouting build. That build leaves you a bit vulnerable before you have wall off + hellions out which Suppy took advantage of in G2. Suppy probably just tested a build that was supposed to punish that exact timing. Demuslim had just been too lazy too test his own builds for various weakness's, and instead just uses a build that does well the majority of the time on the ladder. In G1 he obv. had not taking into account that hte surface area for cc first was kinda bad on that map. Both of the losses simply comes down to Suppy outsmarting Demusilm. Demuslim is a fantastic mechanical player, however he is either too lazy or too dumb to figure out how to play a serious of games and how to optimize build orders. Its a bit of a shame that this kind of talent is just wasted, and I think Demuslim would benefit extremely much if EG had en experienced coach helping him to think about strategies.
Finally someone with spot on analysis of the games Congratulations you are the first intelligent poster I've seen in this thread in a while~!
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On September 18 2013 20:22 Rhaegal wrote: The one thing I'll agree with idra on is that Demuslim is the greediest player and a huge risk taker and not nearly as good as people.
I've been watching him mindlessly expand at the 3rd base at the 5 min mark in TvZ since the metalopolis days. Also see him go cc first, rax, cc in TvP.... His mechanics aren't the greatest and a lot of his wins come from eco cheese wins. Glad Suppy saw through it and punished him, perhaps it will incite Demuslim to play safer.
I wouldn't neccesarily call it greedy. For instance he gets a very early wall off at his natural usually so he is kinda safe against big speedling runs. He delays his 3rd a bit at the expense of this.
But the no-scouting comes at the expense of being exposed to builds you rarely see on the ladder. So smart players can just study his play and then develop "unusual" timings (such as 1base bling bust) to punish that style. A real professional terran player would have a couple of zerg practice players that he spent time optimizing builds together with. There is nothing wrong with using a build that has weakness's, however the problem here is that whenever he plays a tvz he has the same weakness every single game.
If, just he had spent time practicing openings with a practice partner (instead of massing ladder just) he would have realized this weakness and would mix in other types of builds that easily could deflect a one base bling bust for instance.
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On September 18 2013 21:22 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2013 20:22 Rhaegal wrote: The one thing I'll agree with idra on is that Demuslim is the greediest player and a huge risk taker and not nearly as good as people.
I've been watching him mindlessly expand at the 3rd base at the 5 min mark in TvZ since the metalopolis days. Also see him go cc first, rax, cc in TvP.... His mechanics aren't the greatest and a lot of his wins come from eco cheese wins. Glad Suppy saw through it and punished him, perhaps it will incite Demuslim to play safer. I wouldn't neccesarily call it greedy. For instance he gets a very early wall off at his natural usually so he is kinda safe against big speedling runs. He delays his 3rd a bit at the expense of this. But the no-scouting comes at the expense of being exposed to builds you rarely see on the ladder. So smart players can just study his play and then develop "unusual" timings (such as 1base bling bust) to punish that style. A real professional terran player would have a couple of zerg practice players that he spent time optimizing builds together with. There is nothing wrong with using a build that has weakness's, however the problem here is that whenever he plays a tvz he has the same weakness every single game. If, just he had spent time practicing openings with a practice partner (instead of massing ladder just) he would have realized this weakness and would mix in other types of builds that easily could deflect a one base bling bust for instance.
You don't even have to mix in other builds, you can just scv scout on 15 an make a walloff at the top of your ramp with the Rax and your Factory after floating the CC and your actually fine.
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On September 18 2013 22:25 4tre55 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2013 21:22 Hider wrote:On September 18 2013 20:22 Rhaegal wrote: The one thing I'll agree with idra on is that Demuslim is the greediest player and a huge risk taker and not nearly as good as people.
I've been watching him mindlessly expand at the 3rd base at the 5 min mark in TvZ since the metalopolis days. Also see him go cc first, rax, cc in TvP.... His mechanics aren't the greatest and a lot of his wins come from eco cheese wins. Glad Suppy saw through it and punished him, perhaps it will incite Demuslim to play safer. I wouldn't neccesarily call it greedy. For instance he gets a very early wall off at his natural usually so he is kinda safe against big speedling runs. He delays his 3rd a bit at the expense of this. But the no-scouting comes at the expense of being exposed to builds you rarely see on the ladder. So smart players can just study his play and then develop "unusual" timings (such as 1base bling bust) to punish that style. A real professional terran player would have a couple of zerg practice players that he spent time optimizing builds together with. There is nothing wrong with using a build that has weakness's, however the problem here is that whenever he plays a tvz he has the same weakness every single game. If, just he had spent time practicing openings with a practice partner (instead of massing ladder just) he would have realized this weakness and would mix in other types of builds that easily could deflect a one base bling bust for instance. You don't even have to mix in other builds, you can just scv scout on 15 an make a walloff at the top of your ramp with the Rax and your Factory after floating the CC and your actually fine.
Yeh I agree - That's still a variation though. Let's say he does that thing 60% of the time and 40% of the time he does a "greedy" no scout build, and Suppy knows this. Then it isn't optimal for Suppy to ever do that allin, and Demuslim still gets the benfit of playing "greedy" 40% of the time.
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On September 18 2013 19:20 Schelim wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2013 19:18 Morphage wrote: Eventhough Demuslim is quite talented, I think he'll never have what it takes to go far in a tournament. At this point he's just a good streamer and that's it. in other words, he's a foreigner. yeah, i agree. in other words, hes a foreign terran. not like foreign zergs/protoss never go far in stacked korean tournaments
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Demu has been incredibly overrated since forever.
Yeah.
Placing once 4th in one of the weakest skillswise tournaments of ESL doesn't mean jack shit, sorry.
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On September 19 2013 00:20 frontline- wrote: Demu has been incredibly overrated since forever.
Yeah.
Placing once 4th in one of the weakest skillswise tournaments of ESL doesn't mean jack shit, sorry.
If you rate him on mechanics he IMO isn't overrated. Look how well he actually does the times he gets into the midgame in even shape. If you watch him since HOTS released he rarely actually loses those games, even against koreans.
Problem is that he is so awfull at early game. All 4 loses today is related to early game and that is quite typical of him.
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On September 19 2013 02:01 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2013 00:20 frontline- wrote: Demu has been incredibly overrated since forever.
Yeah.
Placing once 4th in one of the weakest skillswise tournaments of ESL doesn't mean jack shit, sorry. If you rate him on mechanics he IMO isn't overrated. Look how well he actually does the times he gets into the midgame in even shape. If you watch him since HOTS released he rarely actually loses those games, even against koreans. Problem is that he is so awfull at early game. All 4 loses today is related to early game and that is quite typical of him. AKA one-dimensional player, easy to deal with if his opponent has a brain.
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