I've been waiting for a proper Inno vs Dark series ever since IEM Gyeonggi. A true clash of titans. The transcendent Terran against the Zerg zenith. Machine vs Monster.
.....it's probably gonna be some incredibly anticlimactic 4-0 sweep that takes less than an hour
Hoping for a 4-3 either way. I'd love Innovation to win because I'd rather see a PvT in the finals. But dark is always godlike and he knows how to beat mass oracles. But sOs in a best of 7 is one of the greatest things to watch because of how ridiculous he is.
On September 09 2017 11:53 SidianTheBard wrote: Hoping for a 4-3 either way. I'd love Innovation to win because I'd rather see a PvT in the finals. But dark is always godlike and he knows how to beat mass oracles. But sOs in a best of 7 is one of the greatest things to watch because of how ridiculous he is.
On September 09 2017 12:43 Zheryn wrote: Is the stream usually not live this late (only 20 min to game) or is it the "show" that starts in 20 min and then the games a bit after that?
On September 09 2017 11:53 SidianTheBard wrote: Hoping for a 4-3 either way. I'd love Innovation to win because I'd rather see a PvT in the finals. But dark is always godlike and he knows how to beat mass oracles. But sOs in a best of 7 is one of the greatest things to watch because of how ridiculous he is.
That's right, It's too boring to watch sOs paly with another Z. Let him showing some PvT bullshit as well. I can't wait to see "the machine" get mentally crushed.
On September 09 2017 11:53 SidianTheBard wrote: Hoping for a 4-3 either way. I'd love Innovation to win because I'd rather see a PvT in the finals. But dark is always godlike and he knows how to beat mass oracles. But sOs in a best of 7 is one of the greatest things to watch because of how ridiculous he is.
That's right, It's too boring to watch sOs paly with another Z. Let him showing some PvT bullshit as well. I can't wait to see "the machine" get mentally crushed.
Getting a bit ahead of yourself there. First semis, then finals, then we will know the champion. Hyping a hypothetical champion before we know who both finalists are is kinda....yeah.
Will be an interesting match because Inno and Dark are good friends and former teammates, and still (normally) practice together. At a guess, Dark plays standard LBH with a cheese or two, but Inno tries to mix it up a bit.
Thinking Innovation 4-1, but as always hoping for a super competitive 4-3 with Inno still winning simply because I feel it would make for a better finals
On September 09 2017 11:53 SidianTheBard wrote: Hoping for a 4-3 either way. I'd love Innovation to win because I'd rather see a PvT in the finals. But dark is always godlike and he knows how to beat mass oracles. But sOs in a best of 7 is one of the greatest things to watch because of how ridiculous he is.
That's right, It's too boring to watch sOs paly with another Z. Let him showing some PvT bullshit as well. I can't wait to see "the machine" get mentally crushed.
We have to be realistic. sOs never mentally crushed Inno. If Inno wins today, sOs does not win BlizzCon this odd year. We need Dark to win today to see sOs winning BlizzCon this year.
On September 09 2017 11:53 SidianTheBard wrote: Hoping for a 4-3 either way. I'd love Innovation to win because I'd rather see a PvT in the finals. But dark is always godlike and he knows how to beat mass oracles. But sOs in a best of 7 is one of the greatest things to watch because of how ridiculous he is.
That's right, It's too boring to watch sOs paly with another Z. Let him showing some PvT bullshit as well. I can't wait to see "the machine" get mentally crushed.
We have to be realistic. sOs never mentally crushed Inno. If Inno wins today, sOs does not win BlizzCon this odd year. We need Dark to win today to see sOs winning BlizzCon this year.
On September 09 2017 11:53 SidianTheBard wrote: Hoping for a 4-3 either way. I'd love Innovation to win because I'd rather see a PvT in the finals. But dark is always godlike and he knows how to beat mass oracles. But sOs in a best of 7 is one of the greatest things to watch because of how ridiculous he is.
That's right, It's too boring to watch sOs paly with another Z. Let him showing some PvT bullshit as well. I can't wait to see "the machine" get mentally crushed.
We have to be realistic. sOs never mentally crushed Inno. If Inno wins today, sOs does not win BlizzCon this odd year. We need Dark to win today to see sOs winning BlizzCon this year.
Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it. So if we don't remain ignorant of this, INnoVation might crush sOs in the finals. It's best to ignore sOs's situation entirely to give him the best shot.
On September 09 2017 11:53 SidianTheBard wrote: Hoping for a 4-3 either way. I'd love Innovation to win because I'd rather see a PvT in the finals. But dark is always godlike and he knows how to beat mass oracles. But sOs in a best of 7 is one of the greatest things to watch because of how ridiculous he is.
That's right, It's too boring to watch sOs paly with another Z. Let him showing some PvT bullshit as well. I can't wait to see "the machine" get mentally crushed.
We have to be realistic. sOs never mentally crushed Inno. If Inno wins today, sOs does not win BlizzCon this odd year. We need Dark to win today to see sOs winning BlizzCon this year.
And maybe that's why history is history.
I have seen sOs in the brightest moments of his carreer ... always losing to Inno. We need Dark to win today to see an easy path to sOs victory next week.
On September 09 2017 11:53 SidianTheBard wrote: Hoping for a 4-3 either way. I'd love Innovation to win because I'd rather see a PvT in the finals. But dark is always godlike and he knows how to beat mass oracles. But sOs in a best of 7 is one of the greatest things to watch because of how ridiculous he is.
That's right, It's too boring to watch sOs paly with another Z. Let him showing some PvT bullshit as well. I can't wait to see "the machine" get mentally crushed.
We have to be realistic. sOs never mentally crushed Inno. If Inno wins today, sOs does not win BlizzCon this odd year. We need Dark to win today to see sOs winning BlizzCon this year.
And maybe that's why history is history.
I have seen sOs in the brightest moments of his carreer ... always losing to Inno. We need Dark to win today to see an easy path to sOs victory next week.
What about Hot6 Cup 2014? His brightest time? Should a true champion try to overcome all his weakness, or should he try to avoid all of them?
The point isn't that it's the absolute first time being done though. It's about not being standard by any means. Something Innovation is known for (and even said to be the boring standard player who cannot do anything else). Cmon guys ..
On September 09 2017 11:53 SidianTheBard wrote: Hoping for a 4-3 either way. I'd love Innovation to win because I'd rather see a PvT in the finals. But dark is always godlike and he knows how to beat mass oracles. But sOs in a best of 7 is one of the greatest things to watch because of how ridiculous he is.
That's right, It's too boring to watch sOs paly with another Z. Let him showing some PvT bullshit as well. I can't wait to see "the machine" get mentally crushed.
We have to be realistic. sOs never mentally crushed Inno. If Inno wins today, sOs does not win BlizzCon this odd year. We need Dark to win today to see sOs winning BlizzCon this year.
And maybe that's why history is history.
I have seen sOs in the brightest moments of his carreer ... always losing to Inno. We need Dark to win today to see an easy path to sOs victory next week.
What about Hot6 Cup 2014? His brightest time? Should a true champion try to overcome all his weakness, or should he try to avoid all of them?
If Inno wins today, sOs is dead. I don't care about overcoming weaknesses. I just want sOs to get to BlizzCon.
On September 09 2017 11:53 SidianTheBard wrote: Hoping for a 4-3 either way. I'd love Innovation to win because I'd rather see a PvT in the finals. But dark is always godlike and he knows how to beat mass oracles. But sOs in a best of 7 is one of the greatest things to watch because of how ridiculous he is.
That's right, It's too boring to watch sOs paly with another Z. Let him showing some PvT bullshit as well. I can't wait to see "the machine" get mentally crushed.
We have to be realistic. sOs never mentally crushed Inno. If Inno wins today, sOs does not win BlizzCon this odd year. We need Dark to win today to see sOs winning BlizzCon this year.
And maybe that's why history is history.
I have seen sOs in the brightest moments of his carreer ... always losing to Inno. We need Dark to win today to see an easy path to sOs victory next week.
What about Hot6 Cup 2014? His brightest time? Should a true champion try to overcome all his weakness, or should he try to avoid all of them?
If Inno wins today, sOs is dead. I don't care about overcoming weaknesses. I just want sOs to get to BlizzCon.
And I'm exactly opposite, besides sOs has GSL ST2 to play anyway. If he got runner-up for GSL and doesn't go far enough at GSL ST2 therefore absent from Blizzcon, then he certainly deserve it.
Innovation is on tilt, this reminds me of Taeja vs Inno where Inno clearly was better until blizzard tilted him so hard he basically gave up. My theory is that it was actually stuchiu or someone else from TL who made that happen back then.
On September 09 2017 13:29 The_Red_Viper wrote: Innovation is on tilt, this reminds me of Taeja vs Inno where Inno clearly was better until blizzard tilted him so hard he basically gave up. My theory is that it was actually stuchiu or someone else from TL who made that happen back then.
But why? I actually wanted 5 INnoVation vs TaeJa Newkirk level games.
On September 09 2017 13:29 The_Red_Viper wrote: Innovation is on tilt, this reminds me of Taeja vs Inno where Inno clearly was better until blizzard tilted him so hard he basically gave up. My theory is that it was actually stuchiu or someone else from TL who made that happen back then.
But why? I actually wanted 5 INnoVation vs TaeJa Newkirk level games.
On September 09 2017 13:36 Twinkle Toes wrote: This has god to be the longest technical break in all of sc2 history
Few years ago there was a much longer break when herO complained his keyboard doesn't work. Then the keyboard was swapped, then the PC, and then it was found out he had wrong hotkeys.
I feel like the pause gave Dark the time he needed to figure out his response to Innovation's build.
On September 09 2017 13:38 stuchiu wrote: I think all of the current best SC2 games right now are INnoVation vs top level players, but this pause is killing me.
*With the exception of mech, I still don't find mech enjoyable unless it's TvT.
Just make one million ravens .... If there was best option just abuse it.The fact that even if inno lost this game doesnt mean late game mech sucks....it's just retarded....
On September 09 2017 14:08 Morbidius wrote: What happened?
Dark got a good engagement and started to take map control. Then INnoVation maxed out, pushed, and somehow won? It's possible I missed somewhere along the line.
One of the best games I've seen in a while, glad I got my food and came to sit down and enjoy the games tonight even though there isn't a protoss. Really awesome.
On September 09 2017 14:30 Morbidius wrote: Didn't Inno see the Nydus for a long time? He had 0 defenses in his main.
He didn't see it, but it was probably assumed. He's doing an all in build. He wanted to bank some money, in the event what happened, happened. That is, to rebuild important infrastructure/retain some area on the map after moving his CC.
Not much he could really do other than bring units back to defend, but in that case, Dark sends more units through the nydus, or decides to break the frontal attack.
Honestly, not very much he could have done. Dark barely held on, but he did it incredibly well.
On September 09 2017 14:34 DieuCure wrote: This is why Cure is infinitely better than INno ( who is like an older version ), he don't have to cheese dark to win him
Oh you are back? I am so happy we get to experience new cure memes
On September 09 2017 14:34 DieuCure wrote: This is why Cure is infinitely better than INno ( who is like an older version ), he don't have to cheese dark to win him
Oh you are back? I am so happy we get to experience new cure memes
I'm not joking, without any training ( because of overwatch ) Cure was able to defeat Dark, so Dark cheesed him, and then leenock, they was too afraid of him.
But when Dark faces INno, he isn't the cheeser, he takes it easy.
Innovation is turning into sOs of Terran with all sort of crazy things that he does and I LOVE it. I never thought he did these cheesy builds given how rigid he was when it came to build order and stuff.
On September 09 2017 14:45 Vutalisk wrote: Innovation is turning into sOs of Terran with all sort of crazy things that he does and I LOVE it. I never thought he did these cheesy builds given how rigid he was when it came to build order and stuff.
Unlike sOs INno actually looks good when he wins though.
sOs is the polar opposite of TY. He looks awful even when he wins whereas TY looks good even when he gets bopped.
On September 09 2017 14:49 TheLordofAwesome wrote: What is "Battlemech" and how does it differ from regular old mech?
It focuses on factory units that actually move fast (aka hellions and cyclones) rather than the clunky stuff like tanks (at least until the later stages).
Yeah zerg definately needs swarm host no matter what :-/ Tank push comes online too fast without it and if you just straight up tech into hive, you die anyway.
On September 09 2017 14:45 Vutalisk wrote: Innovation is turning into sOs of Terran with all sort of crazy things that he does and I LOVE it. I never thought he did these cheesy builds given how rigid he was when it came to build order and stuff.
Unlike sOs INno actually looks good when he wins though.
sOs is the polar opposite of TY. He looks awful even when he wins whereas TY looks good even when he gets bopped.
But "win" is the most important thing as a pro-gamer, "look" doesn't matter at all, maybe that's why their achievements are thousand miles apart.
Bogus must know how to play mech for a long time.He just doesnt want to show it in ro16 and below. It's kinda weird when u see terran player only produces MMM and Liberators in late game while zerg has all kind of tier 3.
Actually the problem was Dark having about 20 hydras and 2 vypers when Inno sieged at his 4th, with the rest being ling bane. Don't know what he was thinking. Guess Inno really titled him with his fine cheese
On September 09 2017 14:59 seemsgood wrote: Bogus must know how to play mech for a long time.He just doesnt want to show it in ro16 and below. It's kinda weird when u see terran player only produces MMM and Liberators in late game while zerg has all kind of tier 3.
Weird in what way? That's the standard lategame bio TvZ
On September 09 2017 15:00 VengefulTree wrote: Actually the problem was Dark having about 20 hydras and 2 vypers when Inno sieged at his 4th, with the rest being ling bane. Don't know what he was thinking. Guess Inno really titled him with his fine cheese
It looks like he is bored to play vs mech and wanted to play bane/hydras.
On September 09 2017 14:59 seemsgood wrote: Bogus must know how to play mech for a long time.He just doesnt want to show it in ro16 and below. It's kinda weird when u see terran player only produces MMM and Liberators in late game while zerg has all kind of tier 3.
Bogus is probably the greatest mech player after Mvp, and he's a great gauge of how viable mech is.
I dunno. As a toss player who cant even see toss winning in their own expansion of SC2, its kinda poetic to see the best terran with all their bs being outplayed by goodish zerg.
I mean Inno has epic skills, but terran has such a deep bag of tricks its difficult to break even when you are even skills-wise and army-wise. Gratz on Inno!
On September 09 2017 15:30 Twinkle Toes wrote: I mean Inno has epic skills, but terran has such a deep bag of tricks its difficult to break even when you are even skills-wise and army-wise. Gratz on Inno!
Good games!
Dark wasn't ready for mech, that's all, just look at TY vs Dark, Bio vs Dark is impossible even at the higher lvl.
On September 09 2017 15:32 Solar424 wrote: Another GSL, another time where Zerg has to wait for next season. Going to be 3 years by the next finals since Zerg won a GSL.
On September 09 2017 15:32 Solar424 wrote: Another GSL, another time where Zerg has to wait for next season. Going to be 3 years by the next finals since Zerg won a GSL.
On September 09 2017 15:30 Twinkle Toes wrote: I mean Inno has epic skills, but terran has such a deep bag of tricks its difficult to break even when you are even skills-wise and army-wise. Gratz on Inno!
Good games!
Dark wasn't ready for mech, that's all, just look at TY vs Dark, Bio vs Dark is impossible even at the higher lvl.
true, but how do you not understand that he couldn't have gone SH. that was one of the main points of the 2star build, to transition into mech without them being able to go SH early on...hopefully doing damage as well
On September 09 2017 15:32 Solar424 wrote: Another GSL, another time where Zerg has to wait for next season. Going to be 3 years by the next finals since Zerg won a GSL.
Maybe that will make GSL reconsider Life's ban.
History could have been different if soO wasn't a choker.
This was such an amazing series, best I've seen in a long time. I thought Dark was gonna take it easy after the first game, then after Acolyte, but damn Inno just doubles down and plays the same mech build/cheese even better.
On September 09 2017 15:30 Twinkle Toes wrote: I mean Inno has epic skills, but terran has such a deep bag of tricks its difficult to break even when you are even skills-wise and army-wise. Gratz on Inno!
Good games!
Dark wasn't ready for mech, that's all, just look at TY vs Dark, Bio vs Dark is impossible even at the higher lvl.
true, but how do you not understand that he couldn't have gone SH. that was one of the main points of the 2star build, to transition into mech without them being able to go SH early on...hopefully doing damage as well
People seems don't understand SH movement nerf at all.The whole point is giving speed banshee a better place.Speed banshees can't kill current SH too well tbh.
On September 09 2017 15:33 The_Red_Viper wrote: Soon Inno will have the same amount of code s titles as Mvp, just saying
And with the GSL vs World, he has the same amount of GSL titles
I'm waiting for Olli answer
Inno's wins aren't legit because he just wins because of terran imbalance and has a healthy body. Also he didn't contribute anything to the metagame unlike TaeJa and Mvp which makes him worth less.
On September 09 2017 15:30 Twinkle Toes wrote: I mean Inno has epic skills, but terran has such a deep bag of tricks its difficult to break even when you are even skills-wise and army-wise. Gratz on Inno!
Good games!
Dark wasn't ready for mech, that's all, just look at TY vs Dark, Bio vs Dark is impossible even at the higher lvl.
true, but how do you not understand that he couldn't have gone SH. that was one of the main points of the 2star build, to transition into mech without them being able to go SH early on...hopefully doing damage as well
Yeah. Its like ZvT is Z playing genius aggression level or going standard and playing hardcore defense until Hive tech. You cant play straight up standard vs. T. Early game you have to deflect harass, and you cant harass either with paperlings. Double and you have to watch for drops. Straight Lair and T simply walks you through with battlemech. a good Terran can answer everything great Zergs can do.
On September 09 2017 15:33 The_Red_Viper wrote: Soon Inno will have the same amount of code s titles as Mvp, just saying
And with the GSL vs World, he has the same amount of GSL titles
I'm waiting for Olli answer
Inno's wins aren't legit because he just wins because of terran imbalance and has a healthy body. Also he didn't contribute anything to the metagame unlike TaeJa and Mvp which makes him worth less.
On September 09 2017 15:33 The_Red_Viper wrote: Soon Inno will have the same amount of code s titles as Mvp, just saying
And with the GSL vs World, he has the same amount of GSL titles
I'm waiting for Olli answer
Inno's wins aren't legit because he just wins because of terran imbalance and has a healthy body. Also he didn't contribute anything to the metagame unlike TaeJa and Mvp which makes him worth less.
Didn't innovation kinda pioneered the never ending push in hots?
On September 09 2017 15:33 The_Red_Viper wrote: Soon Inno will have the same amount of code s titles as Mvp, just saying
And with the GSL vs World, he has the same amount of GSL titles
I'm waiting for Olli answer
Inno's wins aren't legit because he just wins because of terran imbalance and has a healthy body. Also he didn't contribute anything to the metagame unlike TaeJa and Mvp which makes him worth less.
Didn't innovation kinda pioneered the never ending push in hots?
Innovation has shaken up the Terran meta many times, he just has this neverending hate train against him.
On September 09 2017 15:33 The_Red_Viper wrote: Soon Inno will have the same amount of code s titles as Mvp, just saying
And with the GSL vs World, he has the same amount of GSL titles
I'm waiting for Olli answer
Inno's wins aren't legit because he just wins because of terran imbalance and has a healthy body. Also he didn't contribute anything to the metagame unlike TaeJa and Mvp which makes him worth less.
Didn't innovation kinda pioneered the never ending push in hots?
Innovation has shaken up the Terran meta many times, he just has this neverending hate train against him.
Charoisaur is carricaturing INno's haters. But in fact, he fucking likes the Machine.
On September 09 2017 15:33 The_Red_Viper wrote: Soon Inno will have the same amount of code s titles as Mvp, just saying
And with the GSL vs World, he has the same amount of GSL titles
I'm waiting for Olli answer
Inno's wins aren't legit because he just wins because of terran imbalance and has a healthy body. Also he didn't contribute anything to the metagame unlike TaeJa and Mvp which makes him worth less.
Didn't innovation kinda pioneered the never ending push in hots?
Nah he's a patchterran who just copies whichever build is currently the most used and abuses it to its fullest.
On September 09 2017 15:33 The_Red_Viper wrote: Soon Inno will have the same amount of code s titles as Mvp, just saying
And with the GSL vs World, he has the same amount of GSL titles
I'm waiting for Olli answer
Inno's wins aren't legit because he just wins because of terran imbalance and has a healthy body. Also he didn't contribute anything to the metagame unlike TaeJa and Mvp which makes him worth less.
Maybe Innovation is SC2 version of Flash. No creative plays and no meta-changing builds or tactics. But he does everything precisely and never misses a beat and knows how to take full advantage of Terran's strengths.
People should make fun of the notion that we can easily say who came up with strategies. Not about Inno not doing innovating. This whole idea of "player x" gets all the credit for meta changes is stupid in the first place. Even the Bisu one in bw is just a narrative and not actual truth. All we can really say is who actually won with certain strategies, which is what we value already. results.
On September 09 2017 15:33 The_Red_Viper wrote: Soon Inno will have the same amount of code s titles as Mvp, just saying
Inno's GSL titles are much more impressive since they are spread out in a much longer period of time and that shows how consistently good he is. Let's just imagine if there are 4 GSLs every year like the old MVP days, Inno would have won a hell of a lot of GSL titles.
On September 09 2017 15:33 The_Red_Viper wrote: Soon Inno will have the same amount of code s titles as Mvp, just saying
And with the GSL vs World, he has the same amount of GSL titles
I'm waiting for Olli answer
Inno's wins aren't legit because he just wins because of terran imbalance and has a healthy body. Also he didn't contribute anything to the metagame unlike TaeJa and Mvp which makes him worth less.
Maybe Innovation is SC2 version of Flash. No creative plays and no meta-changing builds or tactics. But he does everything precisely and never misses a beat and knows how to take full advantage of Terran's strengths.
Uhmm didn't he just pull out a 2 SP banshee into mech build?
On September 09 2017 15:33 The_Red_Viper wrote: Soon Inno will have the same amount of code s titles as Mvp, just saying
Inno's GSL titles are much more impressive since they are spread out in a much longer period of time and that shows how consistently good he is. Let's just imagine if there are 8 GSLs every year like the old MVP days, Inno would have won a hell of a lot of GSL titles.
On September 09 2017 15:33 The_Red_Viper wrote: Soon Inno will have the same amount of code s titles as Mvp, just saying
And with the GSL vs World, he has the same amount of GSL titles
I'm waiting for Olli answer
Inno's wins aren't legit because he just wins because of terran imbalance and has a healthy body. Also he didn't contribute anything to the metagame unlike TaeJa and Mvp which makes him worth less.
Didn't innovation kinda pioneered the never ending push in hots?
On September 09 2017 15:33 The_Red_Viper wrote: Soon Inno will have the same amount of code s titles as Mvp, just saying
Inno's GSL titles are much more impressive since they are spread out in a much longer period of time and that shows how consistently good he is. Let's just imagine if there are 4 GSLs every year like the old MVP days, Inno would have won a hell of a lot of GSL titles.
On September 09 2017 15:33 The_Red_Viper wrote: Soon Inno will have the same amount of code s titles as Mvp, just saying
And with the GSL vs World, he has the same amount of GSL titles
I'm waiting for Olli answer
Inno's wins aren't legit because he just wins because of terran imbalance and has a healthy body. Also he didn't contribute anything to the metagame unlike TaeJa and Mvp which makes him worth less.
Maybe Innovation is SC2 version of Flash. No creative plays and no meta-changing builds or tactics. But he does everything precisely and never misses a beat and knows how to take full advantage of Terran's strengths.
ByuN made that exact comparison in an interview. Inno is like Flash, he said.
On September 09 2017 15:33 The_Red_Viper wrote: Soon Inno will have the same amount of code s titles as Mvp, just saying
Inno's GSL titles are much more impressive since they are spread out in a much longer period of time and that shows how consistently good he is. Let's just imagine if there are 4 GSLs every year like the old MVP days, Inno would have won a hell of a lot of GSL titles.
In the Mvp days there were like 7 GSLs per year
Yes but the top 16 lvl was so so much higher in 2010-2011, the highest skilled era
On September 09 2017 15:33 The_Red_Viper wrote: Soon Inno will have the same amount of code s titles as Mvp, just saying
And with the GSL vs World, he has the same amount of GSL titles
I'm waiting for Olli answer
Inno's wins aren't legit because he just wins because of terran imbalance and has a healthy body. Also he didn't contribute anything to the metagame unlike TaeJa and Mvp which makes him worth less.
Maybe Innovation is SC2 version of Flash. No creative plays and no meta-changing builds or tactics. But he does everything precisely and never misses a beat and knows how to take full advantage of Terran's strengths.
nah, Inno actually is the grandfather of Terran's meta tbh, he invented greedy 3CC vs Zergs that became Terran's gold build vs Zerg in HOTS, agressive mech which made Terran looked imba in TvZ at the end of HOTS as well.
On September 09 2017 15:33 The_Red_Viper wrote: Soon Inno will have the same amount of code s titles as Mvp, just saying
Inno's GSL titles are much more impressive since they are spread out in a much longer period of time and that shows how consistently good he is. Let's just imagine if there are 4 GSLs every year like the old MVP days, Inno would have won a hell of a lot of GSL titles.
In the Mvp days there were like 7 GSLs per year
Yes but the top 16 lvl was so so much higher in 2010-2011, the highest skilled era
On September 09 2017 15:33 The_Red_Viper wrote: Soon Inno will have the same amount of code s titles as Mvp, just saying
And with the GSL vs World, he has the same amount of GSL titles
I'm waiting for Olli answer
Inno's wins aren't legit because he just wins because of terran imbalance and has a healthy body. Also he didn't contribute anything to the metagame unlike TaeJa and Mvp which makes him worth less.
Maybe Innovation is SC2 version of Flash. No creative plays and no meta-changing builds or tactics. But he does everything precisely and never misses a beat and knows how to take full advantage of Terran's strengths.
nah, Inno actually is the grandfather of Terran's meta tbh, he invented greedy 3CC vs Zergs that became Terran's gold build vs Zerg in HOTS, agressive mech which made Terran looked imba in TvZ at the end of HOTS as well.
Do you mean turtle into raven mech? Yeah he was the only one able to pull it off against the best Zergs.
On September 09 2017 15:33 The_Red_Viper wrote: Soon Inno will have the same amount of code s titles as Mvp, just saying
Inno's GSL titles are much more impressive since they are spread out in a much longer period of time and that shows how consistently good he is. Let's just imagine if there are 4 GSLs every year like the old MVP days, Inno would have won a hell of a lot of GSL titles.
In the Mvp days there were like 7 GSLs per year
Yes but the top 16 lvl was so so much higher in 2010-2011, the highest skilled era
On September 09 2017 15:33 The_Red_Viper wrote: Soon Inno will have the same amount of code s titles as Mvp, just saying
Inno's GSL titles are much more impressive since they are spread out in a much longer period of time and that shows how consistently good he is. Let's just imagine if there are 4 GSLs every year like the old MVP days, Inno would have won a hell of a lot of GSL titles.
In the Mvp days there were like 7 GSLs per year
Yes but the top 16 lvl was so so much higher in 2010-2011, the highest skilled era
Oh boy, i sure hope you're being sarcastic.
Ofc he is, cure didn't play back then
Highest skilled era was GSL season 2 2016. Nothing comes close.
On September 09 2017 15:33 The_Red_Viper wrote: Soon Inno will have the same amount of code s titles as Mvp, just saying
Inno's GSL titles are much more impressive since they are spread out in a much longer period of time and that shows how consistently good he is. Let's just imagine if there are 4 GSLs every year like the old MVP days, Inno would have won a hell of a lot of GSL titles.
In the Mvp days there were like 7 GSLs per year
Yes but the top 16 lvl was so so much higher in 2010-2011, the highest skilled era
On September 09 2017 15:33 The_Red_Viper wrote: Soon Inno will have the same amount of code s titles as Mvp, just saying
And with the GSL vs World, he has the same amount of GSL titles
I'm waiting for Olli answer
Inno's wins aren't legit because he just wins because of terran imbalance and has a healthy body. Also he didn't contribute anything to the metagame unlike TaeJa and Mvp which makes him worth less.
Maybe Innovation is SC2 version of Flash. No creative plays and no meta-changing builds or tactics. But he does everything precisely and never misses a beat and knows how to take full advantage of Terran's strengths.
nah, Inno actually is the grandfather of Terran's meta tbh, he invented greedy 3CC vs Zergs that became Terran's gold build vs Zerg in HOTS, agressive mech which made Terran looked imba in TvZ at the end of HOTS as well.
Do you mean turtle into raven mech? Yeah he was the only one able to pull it off against the best Zergs.
Yeah, stuchiu wrote an article about how Inno pioneered the super-aggressive parade push in early HotS that basically made him unstoppable in TvZ. Then he perfected super-defensive turtle mech in late HotS that basically made him unbeatable in TvZ.
Inno has had a huge influence on the Terran meta over the years. He's basically the bellwether of Terran; whatever build he's using is always gonna be the optimal one.
On September 09 2017 15:33 The_Red_Viper wrote: Soon Inno will have the same amount of code s titles as Mvp, just saying
Inno's GSL titles are much more impressive since they are spread out in a much longer period of time and that shows how consistently good he is. Let's just imagine if there are 4 GSLs every year like the old MVP days, Inno would have won a hell of a lot of GSL titles.
In the Mvp days there were like 7 GSLs per year
Yes but the top 16 lvl was so so much higher in 2010-2011, the highest skilled era
Oh boy, i sure hope you're being sarcastic.
Ofc he is, cure didn't play back then
Highest skilled era was GSL season 2 2016. Nothing comes close.
On September 09 2017 15:33 The_Red_Viper wrote: Soon Inno will have the same amount of code s titles as Mvp, just saying
Inno's GSL titles are much more impressive since they are spread out in a much longer period of time and that shows how consistently good he is. Let's just imagine if there are 4 GSLs every year like the old MVP days, Inno would have won a hell of a lot of GSL titles.
In the Mvp days there were like 7 GSLs per year
Yes but the top 16 lvl was so so much higher in 2010-2011, the highest skilled era
Oh boy, i sure hope you're being sarcastic.
Ofc he is, cure didn't play back then
Highest skilled era was GSL season 2 2016. Nothing comes close.
Highest skilled era is now
That was absolutely one of the best, highest-skilled, series I have ever seen. Will definitely go down as such in SC2 history.
Just from the top of my head some strategies/builds Inno pioneered: -drilling claw rush against Protoss -2 fact mech push in tvt (2016) -Hellion cyclone into mech in TvZ -Bio mine train in early HotS (together with Flash) -Mech into mass BC/Raven in late HotS -2 SP banshee into mech -2/1/1 with double tank followup
On September 09 2017 16:10 Charoisaur wrote: Just from the top of my head some strategies/builds Inno pioneered: -drilling claw rush against Protosd -2 fact mech push in tvt (2016) -Hellion cyclone into mech in TvZ -Bio mine train in early HotS (together with Flash) -Mech into mass BC/Raven in late HotS -2 SP banshee into mech -2/1/1 with double tank followup
Hope some days bogus will show us some dank build with neosteel frame....oh wait...
On September 09 2017 15:47 The_Red_Viper wrote: People should make fun of the notion that we can easily say who came up with strategies. Not about Inno not doing innovating. This whole idea of "player x" gets all the credit for meta changes is stupid in the first place. Even the Bisu one in bw is just a narrative and not actual truth. All we can really say is who actually won with certain strategies, which is what we value already. results.
Maybe you missed the point about creating strategies and meta changes, but it's a valid point in sc1 and sc2. Sure strategies and tactics evolve in a linear manner most of the time as players build on successes and eliminate failures and weaknesses in strategies, but there comes some players who, for at least a specific period of time (until someone figure them out or the meta changes again), become masters of certain builds and strats. Flash made a flying career out of going Rax-Double and proceeding with impeccable macro. You bring up Bisu, but iirc, Bisu still stands as the gold standard in PvZ, to the point that other Ps have no idea how he does it (except for that on Zerg who even Bisu admits is too wonky to figure out). Everything is out there, his style, bo, how he reacts, etc. But no one can copy it, not only because they cant micro like Bisu, but that Bisu got the whole PvZ meta figured out, zergs have literally nothing against him.
On September 09 2017 15:47 The_Red_Viper wrote: People should make fun of the notion that we can easily say who came up with strategies. Not about Inno not doing innovating. This whole idea of "player x" gets all the credit for meta changes is stupid in the first place. Even the Bisu one in bw is just a narrative and not actual truth. All we can really say is who actually won with certain strategies, which is what we value already. results.
Maybe you missed the point about creating strategies and meta changes, but it's a valid point in sc1 and sc2. Sure strategies and tactics evolve in a linear manner most of the time as players build on successes and eliminate failures and weaknesses in strategies, but there comes some players who, for at least a specific period of time (until someone figure them out or the meta changes again), become masters of certain builds and strats. Flash made a flying career out of going Rax-Double and proceeding with impeccable macro. You bring up Bisu, but iirc, Bisu still stands as the gold standard in PvZ, to the point that other Ps have no idea how he does it (except for that on Zerg who even Bisu admits is too wonky to figure out). Everything is out there, his style, bo, how he reacts, etc. But no one can copy it, not only because they cant micro like Bisu, but that Bisu got the whole PvZ meta figured out, zergs have literally nothing against him.
Sure, but you're missing the point. In none of your examples did they create the builds. Bisu revolutionized PvZ with his eponymous build, but DaezanG had come up with it before him. And yet Bisu is rightfully known for this build, since he's the one who achieved success with it.
On September 09 2017 15:47 The_Red_Viper wrote: People should make fun of the notion that we can easily say who came up with strategies. Not about Inno not doing innovating. This whole idea of "player x" gets all the credit for meta changes is stupid in the first place. Even the Bisu one in bw is just a narrative and not actual truth. All we can really say is who actually won with certain strategies, which is what we value already. results.
Maybe you missed the point about creating strategies and meta changes, but it's a valid point in sc1 and sc2. Sure strategies and tactics evolve in a linear manner most of the time as players build on successes and eliminate failures and weaknesses in strategies, but there comes some players who, for at least a specific period of time (until someone figure them out or the meta changes again), become masters of certain builds and strats. Flash made a flying career out of going Rax-Double and proceeding with impeccable macro. You bring up Bisu, but iirc, Bisu still stands as the gold standard in PvZ, to the point that other Ps have no idea how he does it (except for that on Zerg who even Bisu admits is too wonky to figure out). Everything is out there, his style, bo, how he reacts, etc. But no one can copy it, not only because they cant micro like Bisu, but that Bisu got the whole PvZ meta figured out, zergs have literally nothing against him.
His point is that we can't say who really came up with a build because we only see the tournament results and not the practice of the players. It's entirely possible that some B-teamer or his coach came up with the "Bisu build" and Bisu just executed it really well and then took all the credit for it because he was the first one that got the opportunity to show it in a tournament.
That's the whole point. And I literally wrote it in the second sentence:
Sure strategies and tactics evolve in a linear manner most of the time as players build on successes and eliminate failures and weaknesses in strategies,
It's not about pinpointing to precise moment the build was made, often it's about the one who makes everything click after a few tweaks.
Inno is a true Machine. He just sticks to his killer build, and executes it better as the series progresses. During the interview, he modestly (and with some hint of embarrassment) admitted he didn't come up with many builds. But credit where credit is due, especially with the 2port-banshee build being optimal enough to harass and safely macro up at the same time (ala oracles in PvZ). Also refreshing to see Inno throwing in some proxies (and even when he does, he doesn't out-rightly go for the kill but instead methodically build up small advantages).
Feel bad for Dark. He adapted well, and fought as hard as any Zerg could in the tough situations he was put in. He played as close as perfect as he could, but it was just not enough to override the Machine. I struggle to think of any Zerg build he could use to counter Inno's proxies and 2port-banshee harass (at least not without taking a huge gamble). Anyone has ideas?
All in all, a Finals-worthy match. Dark gave his best, but Inno's game-plan and execution were just too solid to be broken. Dark is a fighter, while Inno has this Zen-like, semi-nonchalant, devil-may-care "This is what I'll do, and if I win, I win" mental state about him. Dark is like Nadal, Inno is like Federer. I'm more of a Federer fan, but this time I feel for Dark more and wanted him to win. Oh well, there's always SSL!
On September 09 2017 19:45 Poopi wrote: Why do the good series always happen at 6am -_-. Only NA are allowed to watch Terran play and us EU should love seeing p/z all day long?
Same for ByuN series, are they always at 6am because ByuN has a lot of NA fanboys?
6am NA would be great for me. can't stay up late. trade?
Sure strategies and tactics evolve in a linear manner most of the time as players build on successes and eliminate failures and weaknesses in strategies,
It's not about pinpointing to precise moment the build was made, often it's about the one who makes everything click after a few tweaks.
So it's about who has success with it on the big stage? Sure but that's not the narrative people build around it which is my point.
Had to drop by after last nights games and just say what an incredible performance Dark put on last night. It was just heartbreaking to see him drop the series after that. Dark and his beautiful losses. Reminded me so much of Blizzcon
On September 09 2017 19:45 Poopi wrote: Why do the good series always happen at 6am -_-. Only NA are allowed to watch Terran play and us EU should love seeing p/z all day long?
Same for ByuN series, are they always at 6am because ByuN has a lot of NA fanboys?
On September 09 2017 19:45 Poopi wrote: Why do the good series always happen at 6am -_-. Only NA are allowed to watch Terran play and us EU should love seeing p/z all day long?
Same for ByuN series, are they always at 6am because ByuN has a lot of NA fanboys?
6am NA would be great for me. can't stay up late. trade?
This, I was falling asleep by the time the series ended. I would take 6am any day (except M/W/F).
On September 10 2017 15:55 KingofdaHipHop wrote: A 2013 finals rematch? Thank you GSL! Shame that I missed this, looks like it was epic. I am so psyched!
Also Inno is making the finals every year for four years (and chance at 3 wins in three years) is insane. What a legend
On September 10 2017 15:55 KingofdaHipHop wrote: A 2013 finals rematch? Thank you GSL! Shame that I missed this, looks like it was epic. I am so psyched!
Also Inno is making the finals every year for four years (and chance at 3 wins in three years) is insane. What a legend
On September 10 2017 15:55 KingofdaHipHop wrote: A 2013 finals rematch? Thank you GSL! Shame that I missed this, looks like it was epic. I am so psyched!
Also Inno is making the finals every year for four years (and chance at 3 wins in three years) is insane. What a legend
Not only making to finals but Bogus had the title as well. Here are the fun parts of this coming GSL final. 1. The most premier finals appearance (9) among active Protoss players VS. the most premier finals appearance (10) among active Terran players. 2. Both have carried their race since 2013 and kept the highest offline winrates (all match-ups over 60%, both games and matches) against Korean among their race till now. 3. Both have offline title(s) every year since 2013 (if sOs wins something this year). 4. Two time Blizzcon champion VS. two time GSL champion. You cannot ask a better final than this one for hype.
On September 10 2017 15:55 KingofdaHipHop wrote: A 2013 finals rematch? Thank you GSL! Shame that I missed this, looks like it was epic. I am so psyched!
Also Inno is making the finals every year for four years (and chance at 3 wins in three years) is insane. What a legend
Not only making to finals but Bogus had the title as well. Here are the fun parts of this coming GSL final. 1. The most premier finals appearance (9) among active Protoss players VS. the most premier finals appearance (10) among active Terran players. 2. Both have carried their race since 2013 and kept the highest offline winrates (all match-ups over 60%, both games and matches) against Korean among their race till now. 3. Both have offline title(s) every year since 2013 (if sOs wins something this year). 4. Two time Blizzcon champion VS. two time GSL champion. You cannot ask a better final than this one for hype.
sOs didn't carry shit in 2014, 2016 and 2017... much like Inno barely carried himself last year. There are many reasons to be hyped about this GSL final but that was just a lie.
On September 10 2017 15:55 KingofdaHipHop wrote: A 2013 finals rematch? Thank you GSL! Shame that I missed this, looks like it was epic. I am so psyched!
Also Inno is making the finals every year for four years (and chance at 3 wins in three years) is insane. What a legend
I remember last year he did not make it.
Sometimes I thought IEM Gyeonggi happened at the beginning of 2017 too, but it's not true unfortunately. Although the year of 2016 was like a nightmare for Bogus career wise, IEM Gyeonggi saved him at the end, otherwise he'll have a big defect in his career, same as IEM Taipei 2016 saved sOs' career.
On September 10 2017 15:55 KingofdaHipHop wrote: A 2013 finals rematch? Thank you GSL! Shame that I missed this, looks like it was epic. I am so psyched!
Also Inno is making the finals every year for four years (and chance at 3 wins in three years) is insane. What a legend
Not only making to finals but Bogus had the title as well. Here are the fun parts of this coming GSL final. 1. The most premier finals appearance (9) among active Protoss players VS. the most premier finals appearance (10) among active Terran players. 2. Both have carried their race since 2013 and kept the highest offline winrates (all match-ups over 60%, both games and matches) against Korean among their race till now. 3. Both have offline title(s) every year since 2013 (if sOs wins something this year). 4. Two time Blizzcon champion VS. two time GSL champion. You cannot ask a better final than this one for hype.
sOs didn't carry shit in 2014, 2016 and 2017... much like Inno barely carried himself last year. There are many reasons to be hyped about this GSL final but that was just a lie.
Strictly speaking, sOs didn't carry his race in 2016 and 2017 (but it's not over yet), Bogus didn't carry his race in 2016, but this has nothing to do with their offline winrates career wise, and by "carry", I'm only counting their offline winrates and titles, not what they "looked like" during a game. After more than 5 years, Bogus still ranked first and sOs ranked second among all active players, only these two guys have a overall winrates above 60% for all MUs. I'm assuming I didn't make up those data, right? Or you're saying that Aligulac's data "was just a lie"?
On September 10 2017 15:55 KingofdaHipHop wrote: A 2013 finals rematch? Thank you GSL! Shame that I missed this, looks like it was epic. I am so psyched!
Also Inno is making the finals every year for four years (and chance at 3 wins in three years) is insane. What a legend
Not only making to finals but Bogus had the title as well. Here are the fun parts of this coming GSL final. 1. The most premier finals appearance (9) among active Protoss players VS. the most premier finals appearance (10) among active Terran players. 2. Both have carried their race since 2013 and kept the highest offline winrates (all match-ups over 60%, both games and matches) against Korean among their race till now. 3. Both have offline title(s) every year since 2013 (if sOs wins something this year). 4. Two time Blizzcon champion VS. two time GSL champion. You cannot ask a better final than this one for hype.
sOs didn't carry shit in 2014, 2016 and 2017... much like Inno barely carried himself last year. There are many reasons to be hyped about this GSL final but that was just a lie.
Strictly speaking, sOs didn't carry his race in 2016 and 2017 (but it's not over yet), Bogus didn't carry his race in 2016, but this has nothing to do with their offline winrates career wise, and by "carry", I'm only counting their offline winrates and titles, not what they "looked like" during a game. After more than 5 years, Bogus still ranked first and sOs ranked second among all active players, only these two guys have a overall winrates above 60% for all MUs. I'm assuming I didn't make up those data, right? Or you're saying that Aligulac's data "was just a lie"?
According to INnoVation, stats and records are BS, he is at 10% winrate TvZ
On September 10 2017 15:55 KingofdaHipHop wrote: A 2013 finals rematch? Thank you GSL! Shame that I missed this, looks like it was epic. I am so psyched!
Also Inno is making the finals every year for four years (and chance at 3 wins in three years) is insane. What a legend
Not only making to finals but Bogus had the title as well. Here are the fun parts of this coming GSL final. 1. The most premier finals appearance (9) among active Protoss players VS. the most premier finals appearance (10) among active Terran players. 2. Both have carried their race since 2013 and kept the highest offline winrates (all match-ups over 60%, both games and matches) against Korean among their race till now. 3. Both have offline title(s) every year since 2013 (if sOs wins something this year). 4. Two time Blizzcon champion VS. two time GSL champion. You cannot ask a better final than this one for hype.
sOs didn't carry shit in 2014, 2016 and 2017... much like Inno barely carried himself last year. There are many reasons to be hyped about this GSL final but that was just a lie.
Strictly speaking, sOs didn't carry his race in 2016 and 2017 (but it's not over yet), Bogus didn't carry his race in 2016, but this has nothing to do with their offline winrates career wise, and by "carry", I'm only counting their offline winrates and titles, not what they "looked like" during a game. After more than 5 years, Bogus still ranked first and sOs ranked second among all active players, only these two guys have a overall winrates above 60% for all MUs. I'm assuming I didn't make up those data, right? Or you're saying that Aligulac's data "was just a lie"?
According to INnoVation, stats and records are BS, he is at 10% winrate TvZ
If he has a 10% winrate in his strongest MU, I want to know what his TvP winrate is.
On September 10 2017 15:55 KingofdaHipHop wrote: A 2013 finals rematch? Thank you GSL! Shame that I missed this, looks like it was epic. I am so psyched!
Also Inno is making the finals every year for four years (and chance at 3 wins in three years) is insane. What a legend
Not only making to finals but Bogus had the title as well. Here are the fun parts of this coming GSL final. 1. The most premier finals appearance (9) among active Protoss players VS. the most premier finals appearance (10) among active Terran players. 2. Both have carried their race since 2013 and kept the highest offline winrates (all match-ups over 60%, both games and matches) against Korean among their race till now. 3. Both have offline title(s) every year since 2013 (if sOs wins something this year). 4. Two time Blizzcon champion VS. two time GSL champion. You cannot ask a better final than this one for hype.
sOs didn't carry shit in 2014, 2016 and 2017... much like Inno barely carried himself last year. There are many reasons to be hyped about this GSL final but that was just a lie.
Strictly speaking, sOs didn't carry his race in 2016 and 2017 (but it's not over yet), Bogus didn't carry his race in 2016, but this has nothing to do with their offline winrates career wise, and by "carry", I'm only counting their offline winrates and titles, not what they "looked like" during a game. After more than 5 years, Bogus still ranked first and sOs ranked second among all active players, only these two guys have a overall winrates above 60% for all MUs. I'm assuming I didn't make up those data, right? Or you're saying that Aligulac's data "was just a lie"?
According to INnoVation, stats and records are BS, he is at 10% winrate TvZ
If he has a 10% winrate in his strongest MU, I want to know what his TvP winrate is.
Inno: 'I win about 9 out of 10 TvPs, I really feel sorry for Protoss players on ladder' Interviewer: 'But your winrate is only 56%!' Inno: 'That's only a record.'
On September 10 2017 15:55 KingofdaHipHop wrote: A 2013 finals rematch? Thank you GSL! Shame that I missed this, looks like it was epic. I am so psyched!
Also Inno is making the finals every year for four years (and chance at 3 wins in three years) is insane. What a legend
Not only making to finals but Bogus had the title as well. Here are the fun parts of this coming GSL final. 1. The most premier finals appearance (9) among active Protoss players VS. the most premier finals appearance (10) among active Terran players. 2. Both have carried their race since 2013 and kept the highest offline winrates (all match-ups over 60%, both games and matches) against Korean among their race till now. 3. Both have offline title(s) every year since 2013 (if sOs wins something this year). 4. Two time Blizzcon champion VS. two time GSL champion. You cannot ask a better final than this one for hype.
sOs didn't carry shit in 2014, 2016 and 2017... much like Inno barely carried himself last year. There are many reasons to be hyped about this GSL final but that was just a lie.
Strictly speaking, sOs didn't carry his race in 2016 and 2017 (but it's not over yet), Bogus didn't carry his race in 2016, but this has nothing to do with their offline winrates career wise, and by "carry", I'm only counting their offline winrates and titles, not what they "looked like" during a game. After more than 5 years, Bogus still ranked first and sOs ranked second among all active players, only these two guys have a overall winrates above 60% for all MUs. I'm assuming I didn't make up those data, right? Or you're saying that Aligulac's data "was just a lie"?
According to INnoVation, stats and records are BS, he is at 10% winrate TvZ
And apparently Aligulac tell us Bogus is a liar due to his offline TvZ results, he can say whatever he wants, just like someone's game is always"look better" than the others.
On September 10 2017 15:55 KingofdaHipHop wrote: A 2013 finals rematch? Thank you GSL! Shame that I missed this, looks like it was epic. I am so psyched!
Also Inno is making the finals every year for four years (and chance at 3 wins in three years) is insane. What a legend
Not only making to finals but Bogus had the title as well. Here are the fun parts of this coming GSL final. 1. The most premier finals appearance (9) among active Protoss players VS. the most premier finals appearance (10) among active Terran players. 2. Both have carried their race since 2013 and kept the highest offline winrates (all match-ups over 60%, both games and matches) against Korean among their race till now. 3. Both have offline title(s) every year since 2013 (if sOs wins something this year). 4. Two time Blizzcon champion VS. two time GSL champion. You cannot ask a better final than this one for hype.
sOs didn't carry shit in 2014, 2016 and 2017... much like Inno barely carried himself last year. There are many reasons to be hyped about this GSL final but that was just a lie.
Strictly speaking, sOs didn't carry his race in 2016 and 2017 (but it's not over yet), Bogus didn't carry his race in 2016, but this has nothing to do with their offline winrates career wise, and by "carry", I'm only counting their offline winrates and titles, not what they "looked like" during a game. After more than 5 years, Bogus still ranked first and sOs ranked second among all active players, only these two guys have a overall winrates above 60% for all MUs. I'm assuming I didn't make up those data, right? Or you're saying that Aligulac's data "was just a lie"?
According to INnoVation, stats and records are BS, he is at 10% winrate TvZ
If he has a 10% winrate in his strongest MU, I want to know what his TvP winrate is.
Inno: 'I win about 9 out of 10 TvPs, I really feel sorry for Protoss players on ladder' Interviewer: 'But your winrate is only 56%!' Inno: 'That's only a record.'
On September 10 2017 15:55 KingofdaHipHop wrote: A 2013 finals rematch? Thank you GSL! Shame that I missed this, looks like it was epic. I am so psyched!
Also Inno is making the finals every year for four years (and chance at 3 wins in three years) is insane. What a legend
Not only making to finals but Bogus had the title as well. Here are the fun parts of this coming GSL final. 1. The most premier finals appearance (9) among active Protoss players VS. the most premier finals appearance (10) among active Terran players. 2. Both have carried their race since 2013 and kept the highest offline winrates (all match-ups over 60%, both games and matches) against Korean among their race till now. 3. Both have offline title(s) every year since 2013 (if sOs wins something this year). 4. Two time Blizzcon champion VS. two time GSL champion. You cannot ask a better final than this one for hype.
sOs didn't carry shit in 2014, 2016 and 2017... much like Inno barely carried himself last year. There are many reasons to be hyped about this GSL final but that was just a lie.
Strictly speaking, sOs didn't carry his race in 2016 and 2017 (but it's not over yet), Bogus didn't carry his race in 2016, but this has nothing to do with their offline winrates career wise, and by "carry", I'm only counting their offline winrates and titles, not what they "looked like" during a game. After more than 5 years, Bogus still ranked first and sOs ranked second among all active players, only these two guys have a overall winrates above 60% for all MUs. I'm assuming I didn't make up those data, right? Or you're saying that Aligulac's data "was just a lie"?
According to INnoVation, stats and records are BS, he is at 10% winrate TvZ
If he has a 10% winrate in his strongest MU, I want to know what his TvP winrate is.
Inno: 'I win about 9 out of 10 TvPs, I really feel sorry for Protoss players on ladder' Interviewer: 'But your winrate is only 56%!' Inno: 'That's only a record.'
Well played.
Also the TvT version is
Inno: 'I win about 12 out of 10 TvTs, it's a match-up of pure skill and nobody is as skilled as me.' Interviewer: 'Wait but...' Inno: 'ONLY A RECORD!'
it was interesting to see that innovation won all the lategame mech pushes and lost most games with the early/midgame sheananigans. seems like he is just unstoppable if he reaches that maxed out mech army.
On September 11 2017 08:26 Poopfeast 024 wrote: it was interesting to see that innovation won all the lategame mech pushes and lost most games with the early/midgame sheananigans. seems like he is just unstoppable if he reaches that maxed out mech army.
A maxed mech army is the strongest ground comp in the game, to be fair. With adequate AA, there's really nothing Zerg has that can beat it head-on.
Of course that's why Vipers and BL are so important.
On September 11 2017 08:26 Poopfeast 024 wrote: it was interesting to see that innovation won all the lategame mech pushes and lost most games with the early/midgame sheananigans. seems like he is just unstoppable if he reaches that maxed out mech army.
A maxed mech army is the strongest ground comp in the game, to be fair. With adequate AA, there's really nothing Zerg has that can beat it head-on.
Of course that's why Vipers and BL are so important.
The mechball is indeed stronger. Even with vipers/BLs/infestors there's no way for zerg to cost efficiently engage.
Zerg has to win by outexpanding the terran and having a higher income that overcomes the cost inefficiency. Or just do a hydra timing and end the game before the terran gets too far
It's a shame ByuL isn't as active as he was in 2015. He was the only zerg that could crush mech at it's peak
On September 11 2017 08:26 Poopfeast 024 wrote: it was interesting to see that innovation won all the lategame mech pushes and lost most games with the early/midgame sheananigans. seems like he is just unstoppable if he reaches that maxed out mech army.
A maxed mech army is the strongest ground comp in the game, to be fair. With adequate AA, there's really nothing Zerg has that can beat it head-on.
Of course that's why Vipers and BL are so important.
The mechball is indeed stronger. Even with vipers/BLs/infestors there's no way for zerg to cost efficiently engage.
Zerg has to win by outexpanding the terran and having a higher income that overcomes the cost inefficiency. Or just do a hydra timing and end the game before the terran gets too far
It's a shame ByuL isn't as active as he was in 2015. He was the only zerg that could crush mech at it's peak
ByuL had the best ZvMech, it's true, and he had some pretty good success with it.
But when the stakes were at their highest, Game 5 of GSL Season 3 finals, Inno beat him. ByuL was tearing up after he lost that game. Game 6 was kinda just a formality, that hour-long mech game broke his soul.
Inno really gave a perfect textbook example of 2015 turtle mech. Assemble a 180-supply Skyterran army and wait an hour until Zerg literally mines out their half of the map. One desperate attack and 100 PDDs later, 1 victory. It was a brutal way of winning, but it worked.
On September 11 2017 08:26 Poopfeast 024 wrote: it was interesting to see that innovation won all the lategame mech pushes and lost most games with the early/midgame sheananigans. seems like he is just unstoppable if he reaches that maxed out mech army.
A maxed mech army is the strongest ground comp in the game, to be fair. With adequate AA, there's really nothing Zerg has that can beat it head-on.
Of course that's why Vipers and BL are so important.
i think in game 5 on whirlwind there was no way for dark to have broodlords ready at innovations 10 minute mark push. even though dark had perfect makro. also ultras were not out yet - the ultraden just finished. in my honest opinion: the build time of the greater is one of the problems.
On September 11 2017 08:26 Poopfeast 024 wrote: it was interesting to see that innovation won all the lategame mech pushes and lost most games with the early/midgame sheananigans. seems like he is just unstoppable if he reaches that maxed out mech army.
A maxed mech army is the strongest ground comp in the game, to be fair. With adequate AA, there's really nothing Zerg has that can beat it head-on.
Of course that's why Vipers and BL are so important.
i think in game 5 on whirlwind there was no way for dark to have broodlords ready at innovations 10 minute mark push. even though dark had perfect makro. also ultras were not out yet - the ultraden just finished. in my honest opinion: the build time of the greater is one of the problems.
I think you are right that it is impossible to get BL out so early, but that's not the point I was getting at.
Both Dark and Inno were maxed by the time Inno pushed, but both of them were maxed on midgame compositions, not the lategame ones that I was talking about earlier. Dark had Hydra/Ling/Bane with a couple Vipers, while Inno had a bunch of Hellions and a handful of Vikings plus tanks.
At that stage, Zerg not having BL (or more Vipers/Corruptors/Ultras/etc) is fine because Terran can't possibly be maxed on their own lategame comp either. Dark didn't lose Game 5 because of army composition, he lost because he let Inno siege up between his bases before the big fight.
Watching these games is what made me swear off Starcraft 2 forever. I wanted to punch my screen, and I'm just watching. Everything is a mistake. All of creation, a mistake. I'm sticking exclusively to SC:R from now on. I said my one piece.
On September 21 2017 07:40 Mnijykmirl wrote: Watching these games is what made me swear off Starcraft 2 forever. I wanted to punch my screen, and I'm just watching. Everything is a mistake. All of creation, a mistake. I'm sticking exclusively to SC:R from now on. I said my one piece.
If that was your piece, you could have held your peace.
........I am inordinately pleased with myself for coming up with that
On September 21 2017 07:40 Mnijykmirl wrote: Watching these games is what made me swear off Starcraft 2 forever. I wanted to punch my screen, and I'm just watching. Everything is a mistake. All of creation, a mistake. I'm sticking exclusively to SC:R from now on. I said my one piece.
If that was your piece, you could have held your peace.
........I am inordinately pleased with myself for coming up with that
That was probably the best LotV series I've seen so far. I've not kept up with SC2 much since sometime during HotS, but seeing a TvZ where there was plenty of aggression, lots of tank play, and a high willingness to scrap and fight for everything on the part of both players made for good watching. Artosis made the point several times that Innovation's approach to the series was rather Mvp-esque, and I have to agree. He took chances, he made bold moves, and he seemed to have a knack for knowing when and where to make a big push. A couple of games were ended because he realized when and where to move and park his army to keep Dark from being able to consolidate his forces.