I like both players, they are both probably around the same level in tvt, should be a good finals! Cheering for the three-peat though, maru on the verge of making sc2 history!
On September 14 2018 03:35 The_Red_Viper wrote: I like both players, they are both probably around the same level in tvt, should be a good finals! Cheering for the three-peat though, maru on the verge of making sc2 history!
It's so hard to gauge relative levels with Maru... TY and GuMiho looked pretty evenly matched last season, I thought. But Maru just completely rekt Gumi. I think if Maru shows up in full form, he has to be considered the favourite, and even though it's hard to imagine because TY is really good and seems like he should be able to keep up, I honestly think there's a chance that Maru will flatly outclass him. But I'm hoping for some action-packed scrappy games!
I expect everything to be most dependent on TY's mindset. If he manages to play his A-game and not lose his head, he'll likely win. But it is well possible he might get shaken in the 4th or later set and play terribly.
I strongly think that for almost the whole LotV, TY's A-game is actually the best; it's rather about him having a weak mindset disallowing him to play to his full potential.
Of course, I am aware of the argument that it is part of what makes a player being a good one, my point is that his peak performance is the highest of all, with a relatively low median performance, while players like Maru or Dark might have a slightly lower peak, but a much higher median.
Everyone is already basically calling it like Maru has already won this which is a bit silly. All I can say is if he loses, Serral should be rank 1 next power rank.
And If Serral gets rank 1 in the power ranking after Maru loses one match in a GSL all year while Serral barely beats unranked players in Montreal, I will delete my TL account (not an official bet so not against the rules to say this).
Maru with hattrick. Code S + Code S + Code S. KingKong of Koreans. Serral is Godzilla of foreigners. I really hope they do something like bo5 at Blizzcon!!! It's a must have must see
On September 14 2018 13:40 Rodya wrote: 4 - 0 Maru
And If Serral gets rank 1 in the power ranking after Maru loses one match in a GSL all year while Serral barely beats unranked players in Montreal, I will delete my TL account (not an official bet so not against the rules to say this).
I don't see why Serral is like undefeated including vs Koreans and Maru, 4 in a row, but you think if Maru loses he would still be ahead when Serral already beat him in the H2H anyway
On September 14 2018 13:40 Rodya wrote: 4 - 0 Maru
And If Serral gets rank 1 in the power ranking after Maru loses one match in a GSL all year while Serral barely beats unranked players in Montreal, I will delete my TL account (not an official bet so not against the rules to say this).
I don't see why Serral is like undefeated including vs Koreans and Maru, 4 in a row, but you think if Maru loses he would still be ahead when Serral already beat him in the H2H anyway
I personally think the only way maru could and maybe should lose his first spot for the next PR is if TY wins this final rather easily and decisively. If not you have maru making code s finals three times in a row which is still insane even if he loses one. Code S is simply higher quality competition compared to wcs. I agree though, serral is definitely a contender but in the end he lacks the results against the top, top lvl competition because he doesn't try in code s. Doing better than maru at blizzcon would do the trick though probably.
On September 14 2018 13:40 Rodya wrote: 4 - 0 Maru
And If Serral gets rank 1 in the power ranking after Maru loses one match in a GSL all year while Serral barely beats unranked players in Montreal, I will delete my TL account (not an official bet so not against the rules to say this).
I don't see why Serral is like undefeated including vs Koreans and Maru, 4 in a row, but you think if Maru loses he would still be ahead when Serral already beat him in the H2H anyway
You really need to stop taking a bo1 showmatch seriously. You know Serral lost bo1s to uThermal and TLO not too long ago? Bo1s are garbage, let alone ones that aren't a real part of a tournament.
If Maru loses here you could make the argument for TY being #1, but no one else. It doesn't matter if Serral is undefeated when he isn't playing competition as hard as either Maru or TY are.
On September 14 2018 13:40 Rodya wrote: 4 - 0 Maru
And If Serral gets rank 1 in the power ranking after Maru loses one match in a GSL all year while Serral barely beats unranked players in Montreal, I will delete my TL account (not an official bet so not against the rules to say this).
I don't see why Serral is like undefeated including vs Koreans and Maru, 4 in a row, but you think if Maru loses he would still be ahead when Serral already beat him in the H2H anyway
You really need to stop taking a bo1 showmatch seriously. You know Serral lost bo1s to uThermal and TLO not too long ago?
His loss to uThermal was 4 months ago and his loss to TLO, 5 months ago. The loss to uThermal was also his last series lost at all.
On September 14 2018 13:40 Rodya wrote: 4 - 0 Maru
And If Serral gets rank 1 in the power ranking after Maru loses one match in a GSL all year while Serral barely beats unranked players in Montreal, I will delete my TL account (not an official bet so not against the rules to say this).
I don't see why Serral is like undefeated including vs Koreans and Maru, 4 in a row, but you think if Maru loses he would still be ahead when Serral already beat him in the H2H anyway
You really need to stop taking a bo1 showmatch seriously. You know Serral lost bo1s to uThermal and TLO not too long ago?
His loss to uThermal was 4 months ago and his loss to TLO, 5 months ago. The loss to uThermal was also his last series lost at all.
I know, the point is that a bo1 isn't a great judge of skill. I don't think Serral would not have lost any those if they were bo5 for example.
And if bo1s were played more often you can almost guarantee his winning streak wouldn't be as sick.
I want this to both be one of the shortest GSLs in history by time and also play way more games than necessary. Let's say... 2 draws goes to game 7(9) but the whole thing ends in under an hour game time?
On September 14 2018 12:31 Dave4 wrote: Everyone is already basically calling it like Maru has already won this which is a bit silly. All I can say is if he loses, Serral should be rank 1 next power rank.
TY deserves a GSL win after playing both SCs for 10+ years. While Maru's triple GSL will be legendary achievement, I think TY's last year run was already miracle. He was robbed his WCS finals win by Rogue after getting reverse-swept, if he won he could get auto win vs. soO (knowing curse) making him IEM+WESG+WCS winner "Million Dollar Terran". So gogo TY!
On September 14 2018 12:31 Dave4 wrote: Everyone is already basically calling it like Maru has already won this which is a bit silly. All I can say is if he loses, Serral should be rank 1 next power rank.
TY 4-2, but they're pretty neck and neck.
If Maru loses, Serral should be #3 in the next PR
This is exactly what I thought. Especially considering how much emphasis they put on recent results.
Nevertheless, if Maru does lose, they are making it Serral,Maru,TY.
On September 14 2018 13:40 Rodya wrote: 4 - 0 Maru
And If Serral gets rank 1 in the power ranking after Maru loses one match in a GSL all year while Serral barely beats unranked players in Montreal, I will delete my TL account (not an official bet so not against the rules to say this).
I don't see why Serral is like undefeated including vs Koreans and Maru, 4 in a row, but you think if Maru loses he would still be ahead when Serral already beat him in the H2H anyway
Look man, you obviously are brand new to SC2 so why don't you just calm down, I already responded to one of your posts in another thread.
Serral got dumpstered 0-3 by Maru at WESG, the only tournament that they've played each other in an official match. Before GSL vs The World, Serral's results versus Koreans range from awful to ro16 status. You are new to SC2 - that's okay, just stop acting like you aren't.
I believe Maru will defeat the "Sun Terran" handily.
I see TY as the elder statesmen of Terran. He's like that old guy in the BC in the introduction video to BroodWar listening to the opera and shit while his Marines get slaughtered by zerglings. What I mean is, he has a refined style and godlike skill, but his outstanding characteristic is fast and precise decision making. He's the guy who beats Inno because he makes better split second decisions, with macro that's 95% as good as Innos.
Maru is a different breed. If you have been watching him since proleague you know what the real deal is here. My boy Maru, he's a fucking animal. He used to send a reaper and a hellion across the map and win games. Two units, GG. He is just too fast, too aggressive, and most of all he just enjoys the game too much, to not be the champ. He isn't sweating the small stuff like Gumiho or trying so hard like a robot Inno, and he doesn't have to think as much as TY, he's a natural, and he's going all the way this year.
On September 14 2018 13:40 Rodya wrote: 4 - 0 Maru
And If Serral gets rank 1 in the power ranking after Maru loses one match in a GSL all year while Serral barely beats unranked players in Montreal, I will delete my TL account (not an official bet so not against the rules to say this).
I don't see why Serral is like undefeated including vs Koreans and Maru, 4 in a row, but you think if Maru loses he would still be ahead when Serral already beat him in the H2H anyway
Look man, you obviously are brand new to SC2 so why don't you just calm down, I already responded to one of your posts in another thread.
Serral got dumpstered 0-3 by Maru at WESG, the only tournament that they've played each other in an official match. Before GSL vs The World, Serral's results versus Koreans range from awful to ro16 status. You are new to SC2 - that's okay, just stop acting like you aren't.
I am not new and slandering in this fashion is against the tl rules so tread carefully.
You seem to be blatantly overlooking the GSL that Serral won recently for some reason. Probably because it goes against your Korean rules the world ideology.
On September 14 2018 13:40 Rodya wrote: 4 - 0 Maru
And If Serral gets rank 1 in the power ranking after Maru loses one match in a GSL all year while Serral barely beats unranked players in Montreal, I will delete my TL account (not an official bet so not against the rules to say this).
I don't see why Serral is like undefeated including vs Koreans and Maru, 4 in a row, but you think if Maru loses he would still be ahead when Serral already beat him in the H2H anyway
Look man, you obviously are brand new to SC2 so why don't you just calm down, I already responded to one of your posts in another thread.
Serral got dumpstered 0-3 by Maru at WESG, the only tournament that they've played each other in an official match. Before GSL vs The World, Serral's results versus Koreans range from awful to ro16 status. You are new to SC2 - that's okay, just stop acting like you aren't.
Serral beat Maru 2-0 in an official match before that (I assume you meant offline). They're 3-3 in games this year
On September 14 2018 13:40 Rodya wrote: 4 - 0 Maru
And If Serral gets rank 1 in the power ranking after Maru loses one match in a GSL all year while Serral barely beats unranked players in Montreal, I will delete my TL account (not an official bet so not against the rules to say this).
I don't see why Serral is like undefeated including vs Koreans and Maru, 4 in a row, but you think if Maru loses he would still be ahead when Serral already beat him in the H2H anyway
Look man, you obviously are brand new to SC2 so why don't you just calm down, I already responded to one of your posts in another thread.
Serral got dumpstered 0-3 by Maru at WESG, the only tournament that they've played each other in an official match. Before GSL vs The World, Serral's results versus Koreans range from awful to ro16 status. You are new to SC2 - that's okay, just stop acting like you aren't.
Serral beat Maru 2-0 in an official match before that (I assume you meant offline). They're 3-3 in games this year
On September 15 2018 11:44 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
On September 15 2018 09:24 Rodya wrote:
On September 14 2018 21:26 Dave4 wrote:
On September 14 2018 13:40 Rodya wrote: 4 - 0 Maru
And If Serral gets rank 1 in the power ranking after Maru loses one match in a GSL all year while Serral barely beats unranked players in Montreal, I will delete my TL account (not an official bet so not against the rules to say this).
I don't see why Serral is like undefeated including vs Koreans and Maru, 4 in a row, but you think if Maru loses he would still be ahead when Serral already beat him in the H2H anyway
Look man, you obviously are brand new to SC2 so why don't you just calm down, I already responded to one of your posts in another thread.
Serral got dumpstered 0-3 by Maru at WESG, the only tournament that they've played each other in an official match. Before GSL vs The World, Serral's results versus Koreans range from awful to ro16 status. You are new to SC2 - that's okay, just stop acting like you aren't.
Serral beat Maru 2-0 in an official match before that (I assume you meant offline). They're 3-3 in games this year
Do you guys think the games will be good? I got no idea how korean level TvT looks atm, but if some people here are right and it will be a proxy fest then I got my doubts.
Staying up for this, then hopefully a few hours of sleep before heading to my area's annual wine festival with my idiot friends. Yeahhhhh. Would love to see a TY win.
On September 15 2018 16:00 HolydaKing wrote: 4-2 for TY I hope.
Do you guys think the games will be good? I got no idea how korean level TvT looks atm, but if some people here are right and it will be a proxy fest then I got my doubts.
On September 15 2018 17:07 Morbidius wrote: Everyone is throwing the b word around, if he wins its undeniable at this point.
I think it's deniable until Blizzcon, if he wins blizzcon it's at that point undeniable
Blizzcon is like the epilogue of the season, with 8 foreigners in it. Maru has to win this to be bonjwa, if he wins Blizzcon yet loses here he won't get half the credit for it.
Maru is a god. I really hope for the legend to keep growing and to win today. So serral vs maru becomes the dream final on blizzcon and its like a super ultimate clash of worlds of starcraft.
On September 15 2018 17:15 Morbidius wrote: Rakshir can't be a more fitting name for the season. TY is challenging Maru, the highlord of terran, to Rakshir.
And they laughed at that title at the beginning of the season...
Bold prediction: series will go to a Game 7, and just before it starts, Serral's music will hit and he will challenge TY and Maru to 1v2 winner take all for the GSL title.
It's really lame they used cloth as fake flames in the barrels. Should've been actual Rak'shir, with the floor in the studio splitting open and the loser of the series being thrown into the lava beneath.
On September 15 2018 17:17 Kommander wrote: Bold prediction: series will go to a Game 7, and just before it starts, Serral's music will hit and he will challenge TY and Maru to 1v2 winner take all for the GSL title.
On September 15 2018 17:17 Kommander wrote: Bold prediction: series will go to a Game 7, and just before it starts, Serral's music will hit and he will challenge TY and Maru to 1v2 winner take all for the GSL title.
On September 15 2018 17:17 Ej_ wrote: It's really lame they used cloth as fake flames in the barrels. Should've been actual Rak'shir, with the floor in the studio splitting open and the loser of the series being thrown into the lava beneath.
On September 15 2018 17:17 Kommander wrote: Bold prediction: series will go to a Game 7, and just before it starts, Serral's music will hit and he will challenge TY and Maru to 1v2 winner take all for the GSL title.
On September 15 2018 17:15 Morbidius wrote: Rakshir can't be a more fitting name for the season. TY is challenging Maru, the highlord of terran, to Rakshir.
And they laughed at that title at the beginning of the season...
I thought Maru would make a Ro32 exit just to ruin it all as usually happens in SC2 whenever the bonjwa talks start.
On September 15 2018 17:17 Kommander wrote: Bold prediction: series will go to a Game 7, and just before it starts, Serral's music will hit and he will challenge TY and Maru to 1v2 winner take all for the GSL title.
On September 15 2018 17:22 romson87 wrote: Maru's too scared of TY, it's his game to lose imo
Feels like it - but then they did almost the same with the last final where Zest sounded really good and it looked to be a great match, then Maru happened.
On September 15 2018 17:22 romson87 wrote: Maru's too scared of TY, it's his game to lose imo
Feels like it - but then they did almost the same with the last final where Zest sounded really good and it looked to be a great match, then Maru happened.
On September 15 2018 17:22 romson87 wrote: Maru's too scared of TY, it's his game to lose imo
Feels like it - but then they did almost the same with the last final where Zest sounded really good and it looked to be a great match, then Maru happened.
Yeah but Zest was shit and everybody knew it lol.
Have to agree with that one. I want Maru to win, but I want it to be nailbiter. We all had hopes for Gumiho, but he was left wanting.
I feel like that scan might have telegraphed to TY that Maru was going for a third CC maybe? I could be wrong here but I could see someone on the level of TY knowing that that means third CC
On September 15 2018 17:38 Psychonian wrote: I feel like that scan might have telegraphed to TY that Maru was going for a third CC maybe? I could be wrong here but I could see someone on the level of TY knowing that that means third CC
On September 15 2018 17:40 djraphi23 wrote: I'm sure TY heard that crowd reaction. That was so loud ! Even with the headset I'm sure he could hear it. And weirdly he had the perfect counter...
You can barely hear the game sounds in the noice cancelling head phones, but go ahead and diminish the player who won a bit more.
On September 15 2018 17:59 litLikeBic wrote: hey guys! i'm late as usual have the games been good? short or long in duration? thanks in advance for any replies
Maru falls behind from failed early proxies and TY commands the game from there with an iron grip.
On September 15 2018 17:59 litLikeBic wrote: hey guys! i'm late as usual have the games been good? short or long in duration? thanks in advance for any replies
Maru falls behind from failed early proxies and TY commands the game from there with an iron grip.
On September 15 2018 18:00 [PkF] Wire wrote: TY looking incredible. Eager to see if Maru will be able to react.
Doesn't look so, I hope his wrists are not striking back...
honestly his mechanics aren't looking bad, he played from behind in both games I think. I still have hope this can become a very good series.
His reactions have been slower than usual for sure.
This.
Also it would explain why he's playing worse in lower tiers of GSL
how so?
He? Saving wrists for when it matters?
Ahh
He had issues 3 years ago I believe, and they don't go away, you can just mitigate some damage. I don't have wrist issues, but I have fucked up ankle really hard and on some days it's so bad just because of "reasons". Once it's broken it cannot be fixed anymore and you have to save yourself.
Edit> This looks to me Maru has issues, 3 proxies...?
On September 15 2018 18:20 DBooN wrote: Okay, it was sick against the marines, but picking them up before a single siege tank kills them isn't that crazy.
the crazy thing is anticipating that he can stay long enough before the Interference matrix wears of and keeps everything alive in the time
On September 15 2018 18:20 DBooN wrote: Okay, it was sick against the marines, but picking them up before a single siege tank kills them isn't that crazy.
the crazy thing is anticipating that he can stay long enough before the Interference matrix wears of and keeps everything alive in the time
Looked more like he just went for it and it ended up working out.
On September 15 2018 18:20 DBooN wrote: Okay, it was sick against the marines, but picking them up before a single siege tank kills them isn't that crazy.
the crazy thing is anticipating that he can stay long enough before the Interference matrix wears of and keeps everything alive in the time
Looked more like he just went for it and it ended up working out.
Nah, that's naive as fuck, it was clear that he played it to perfection, no overhype.
This reminds me old WoL or HotS youtube series where pro gamers got challenges to play against random people from the crowd, like "don't build anything in you base" etc. Maru watched it?
On September 15 2018 18:30 IshinShishi wrote: dont get the noobsters crying about proxy, these games have been amazing, much much better than tons of "standard macro games"
so far I'm loving it. TY defended well in most of the games and we got interesting developments
On September 15 2018 18:30 IshinShishi wrote: dont get the noobsters crying about proxy, these games have been amazing, much much better than tons of "standard macro games"
I have been on the edge of my seat for almost an hour now, incredible micro battles all around.
By the way, Tychus anti armor debuff looks so classy and natural in coop. Can't we get something similar for multiplayer instead of those bright tomatoes?
Did you see Maru's base? What the hell man, he had buildings EVERYWHERE and like a 6k/7k bank... TY dropped his main and I'm like? ... yeah but the whole bottom half of the map is his main?
On September 15 2018 18:52 VHbb wrote: EPIC game such an amazing finals, with the proxies, the 2-0, the start of the comeback into an epic macro game and the terrific casting from Tastosis
<3 SC2
possibly the best gsl finals depending on the 2 or (hoping for) 3 next games
TY seemed worse in this one from start to finish, Maru had faster upgrades, better economy, didn't hemorrhage units, just overall better in mid-late game.
On September 15 2018 18:52 [PkF] Wire wrote: honestly this has the potential to surpass Mvp - Squirtle. And we're more or less guaranteed the g7 cheese ^^
Nothing in the whole world can surpass Archon Toilet of BCs.
On September 15 2018 18:52 [PkF] Wire wrote: honestly this has the potential to surpass Mvp - Squirtle. And we're more or less guaranteed the g7 cheese ^^
Nothing in the whole world can surpass Archon Toilet of BCs.
For me; that game 7 was such edge of the seat stuff. For F1 fans; same feeling as Interlagos '08.
On September 15 2018 18:53 IshinShishi wrote: TY seemed worse in this one from start to finish, Maru had faster upgrades, better economy, didn't hemorrhage units, just overall better in mid-late game.
"didn't hemorrhage units" except the double drop he lost for free.
How epic it was when Maru started to move in with the Vikings and Ravens pre-splitted from a large arc, just before the BCs jump and then suddendly... BAM Battlecruisers!
On September 15 2018 18:53 IshinShishi wrote: TY seemed worse in this one from start to finish, Maru had faster upgrades, better economy, didn't hemorrhage units, just overall better in mid-late game.
"didn't hemorrhage units" except the double drop he lost for free.
That was pretty much his only major mistake, which allowed TY to get even and got us this amazing late game battle.
On September 15 2018 18:56 VHbb wrote: How epic it was when Maru started to move in with the Vikings and Ravens pre-splitted from a large arc, just before the BCs jump and then suddendly... BAM Battlecruisers!
on this picture TY looks like Bran from later seasons of GoT. In a sense that you remember his looks from when he was Baby and now its weird because its the same kid but somehow bigger
On September 15 2018 18:59 fLyiNgDroNe wrote: on this picture TY looks like Bran from later seasons of GoT. In a sense that you remember his looks from when he was Baby and now its weird because its the same kid but somehow bigger
you know, normally I don't talk shit about crowd giving away proxies, but when they don't proxy then they do player introductions and the crowd cheers each players' name...seems kinda obvious?
On September 15 2018 19:39 Die4Ever wrote: you know, normally I don't talk shit about crowd giving away proxies, but when they don't proxy then they do player introductions and the crowd cheers each players' name...seems kinda obvious?
You literally can't hear or see the crowd as a player.
On September 15 2018 19:39 Die4Ever wrote: you know, normally I don't talk shit about crowd giving away proxies, but when they don't proxy then they do player introductions and the crowd cheers each players' name...seems kinda obvious?
Any GSL players can tell us if its really like that?
On September 15 2018 19:39 Die4Ever wrote: you know, normally I don't talk shit about crowd giving away proxies, but when they don't proxy then they do player introductions and the crowd cheers each players' name...seems kinda obvious?
I mean the players can't hear the crowd, so it's fine right?
On September 15 2018 19:39 Die4Ever wrote: you know, normally I don't talk shit about crowd giving away proxies, but when they don't proxy then they do player introductions and the crowd cheers each players' name...seems kinda obvious?
Any GSL players can tell us if its really like that?
they spill white noise into your ears so you don't hear anything
On September 15 2018 19:39 Die4Ever wrote: you know, normally I don't talk shit about crowd giving away proxies, but when they don't proxy then they do player introductions and the crowd cheers each players' name...seems kinda obvious?
Any GSL players can tell us if its really like that?
they spill white noise into your ears so you don't hear anything
I don't remember seeing you in GSL. How far did you advance?
Game 7 just like previous WESG finals. Will TY do some allin like last time? In finals if game goes into 7 TY always does something do-or-die allinish thing like he did vs. Stats and Maru.
On September 15 2018 19:39 Die4Ever wrote: you know, normally I don't talk shit about crowd giving away proxies, but when they don't proxy then they do player introductions and the crowd cheers each players' name...seems kinda obvious?
Any GSL players can tell us if its really like that?
they spill white noise into your ears so you don't hear anything
I don't remember seeing you in GSL. How far did you advance?
I didn't have to, I just repeat what Scarlett says
Why did TY give up the choke point in front of his base so easily ?? He had 5 or 6 cyclones and the only thing to spot high ground was 1 flimsy banshee.
man grand slam for Maru! what are the odds of having 2 players in different parts of the world winning all tournaments through a whole year?? If somehow miraculously we get Maru Serral blizzvon finals i will call sorcery. This cannot be real.
On September 15 2018 19:48 fLyiNgDroNe wrote: man grand slam for Maru! what are the odds of having 2 players in different parts of the world winning all tournaments through a whole year?? If somehow miraculously we get Maru Serral blizzvon finals i will call sorcery. This cannot be real.
On September 15 2018 19:48 fLyiNgDroNe wrote: man grand slam for Maru! what are the odds of having 2 players in different parts of the world winning all tournaments through a whole year?? If somehow miraculously we get Maru Serral blizzvon finals i will call sorcery. This cannot be real.
On September 15 2018 19:46 Pr0wler wrote: Why did TY give up the choke point in front of his base so easily ?? He had 5 or 6 cyclones and the only thing to spot high ground was 1 flimsy banshee.
Honestly, what is Maru lacking in? He's so decisive, so good at macro, so willing to proxy and cheese, amazing positional sense, great micro, doesn't crack under pressure at all ...
On September 15 2018 19:50 IshinShishi wrote: Look, I am the biggest Mvp fan out there, if Maru wins Blizzcon I will accept him as the new GOAT, gl Maru.
It’s already over lol. 3 peat GSL
Probably the best achievement that’ll be done in StarCraft 2 history
On September 15 2018 19:51 Kommander wrote: Nice of Maru to back his teammate, but yeah, Serral is better than Rogue overall. Still, Rogue has a knack for getting hot in weekend tournaments.
Serral looks better than Rogue right now, but I'm pretty sure Rogue can peak higher than Serral for Blizzcon
On September 15 2018 19:50 IshinShishi wrote: Look, I am the biggest Mvp fan out there, if Maru wins Blizzcon I will accept him as the new GOAT, gl Maru.
It’s already over lol. 3 peat GSL
Probably the best achievement that’ll be done in StarCraft 2 history
we have to take the smallest field of competition into account but when I see the level of that finals, I call the debate over too.
On September 15 2018 19:50 [PkF] Wire wrote: Maru Serral finals would be exceptional. But I wouldn't be surprised if Stats / Rogue / TY peaked for Blizzcon - especially Rogue.
yea Blizzcon champ usually doesn't get in shape until closer to Blizzcon, it's always hard to guess who heats up just in time
On September 15 2018 19:53 Charoisaur wrote: can't wait for overhyped Serral to get slapped at Blizzcon
well I'll be very disappointed and surprised if that happens. My guess is he won't win but do very well, like lose in the semis or finals in very close fashion. Definitely amidst my favorites with TY Rogue Stats and Maru of course.
On September 15 2018 19:50 IshinShishi wrote: Look, I am the biggest Mvp fan out there, if Maru wins Blizzcon I will accept him as the new GOAT, gl Maru.
field is different, cant compare a dinosaur stepping on a playground to 1500 korean boys knifefighting daily to survive
On September 15 2018 19:53 Charoisaur wrote: can't wait for overhyped Serral to get slapped at Blizzcon
People said the same when GSL vs The World rolled around. Guess how that turned out Though I think Serral would at least be ro8 level, but we'll see how he fares after the Koreans started prepping for him.
On September 15 2018 19:50 IshinShishi wrote: Look, I am the biggest Mvp fan out there, if Maru wins Blizzcon I will accept him as the new GOAT, gl Maru.
field is different, cant compare a dinosaur stepping on a playground to 1500 korean boys knifefighting daily to survive
On September 15 2018 19:50 IshinShishi wrote: Look, I am the biggest Mvp fan out there, if Maru wins Blizzcon I will accept him as the new GOAT, gl Maru.
It’s already over lol. 3 peat GSL
Probably the best achievement that’ll be done in StarCraft 2 history
we have to take the smallest field of competition into account but when I see the level of that finals, I call the debate over too.
Yeah the initial groups are easier than back then but the top is still as cut throat plus the level of play is quite high overall
Does Maru really need Blizzcon for people to give him credit? If you don't think a guy who won 3 GSL in a row is the best how would winning a weekender against foreigners to prove anything? To me he could go chill at some california beach and he would still be the GOAT.
On September 15 2018 19:53 Charoisaur wrote: can't wait for overhyped Serral to get slapped at Blizzcon
Where do you put Serral right now in a global ranking?
difficult to say with the lack of data due to him playing WCS but he'd be somewhere from 2-5. But the thing that annoys me is that people are acting that Serral is clearly above the top-tier koreans not named Maru and are expecting a Maru - Serral finals. There's nothing that suggests Serral is better than TY, Stats, Rogue, Dark etc... those have all won korean tournaments and would all easily dominate WCS.
On September 15 2018 19:53 Charoisaur wrote: can't wait for overhyped Serral to get slapped at Blizzcon
Where do you put Serral right now in a global ranking?
difficult to say with the lack of data due to him playing WCS but he'd be somewhere from 2-5. But the thing that annoys me is that people are acting that Serral is clearly above the top-tier koreans not named Maru and are expecting a Maru - Serral finals. There's nothing that suggests Serral is better than TY, Stats, Rogue, Dark etc... those have all won korean tournaments and would all easily dominate WCS.
On September 15 2018 19:53 Charoisaur wrote: can't wait for overhyped Serral to get slapped at Blizzcon
Where do you put Serral right now in a global ranking?
difficult to say with the lack of data due to him playing WCS but he'd be somewhere from 2-5. But the thing that annoys me is that people are acting that Serral is clearly above the top-tier koreans not named Maru and are expecting a Maru - Serral finals. There's nothing that suggests Serral is better than TY, Stats, Rogue, Dark etc... those have all won korean tournaments and would all easily dominate WCS.
I'm not saying that Serral is definitely better than those names you listed....but Serral did beat Stats and Dark in GSL v the World. And he beat Rogue in IEM Katowice. He has shown that he can beat top Koreans.
On September 15 2018 19:53 Charoisaur wrote: can't wait for overhyped Serral to get slapped at Blizzcon
Where do you put Serral right now in a global ranking?
difficult to say with the lack of data due to him playing WCS but he'd be somewhere from 2-5. But the thing that annoys me is that people are acting that Serral is clearly above the top-tier koreans not named Maru and are expecting a Maru - Serral finals. There's nothing that suggests Serral is better than TY, Stats, Rogue, Dark etc... those have all won korean tournaments and would all easily dominate WCS.
I'm not saying that Serral is definitely better than those names you listed....but Serral did beat Stats and Dark in GSL v the World. And he beat Rogue in IEM Katowice. He has shown that he can beat top Koreans.
ofc that's why I said he is around the same level. But from reading the comments here and listening to Artosis hype it feels a lot of people think he's much better than those guys.
On September 15 2018 19:50 IshinShishi wrote: Look, I am the biggest Mvp fan out there, if Maru wins Blizzcon I will accept him as the new GOAT, gl Maru.
On September 15 2018 19:53 Charoisaur wrote: can't wait for overhyped Serral to get slapped at Blizzcon
Where do you put Serral right now in a global ranking?
difficult to say with the lack of data due to him playing WCS but he'd be somewhere from 2-5. But the thing that annoys me is that people are acting that Serral is clearly above the top-tier koreans not named Maru and are expecting a Maru - Serral finals. There's nothing that suggests Serral is better than TY, Stats, Rogue, Dark etc... those have all won korean tournaments and would all easily dominate WCS.
Well he did beat Stats and Dark recently at GSL vs the world and crushed Inno who had just crushed Rogue.
But yeah I 2-5 is reasonable, there is certainly not enough data vs Koreans. I still put him at 2 though.
On September 15 2018 19:50 IshinShishi wrote: Look, I am the biggest Mvp fan out there, if Maru wins Blizzcon I will accept him as the new GOAT, gl Maru.
Was wondering what Maru's stats this year looked like so I just had a quick look. Only looking at GSL the b word is definitely not out of place. But looking at Maru's whole year, it's harder to say. He's actually only 170-78 (68,55%) this year, so not in the 80-85% range that if I remember correctly were the standard in bw. We have to take the increased volatility of the game and the fact that Maru tends to adjust to the level of his opposition ; but still.
On September 15 2018 19:50 IshinShishi wrote: Look, I am the biggest Mvp fan out there, if Maru wins Blizzcon I will accept him as the new GOAT, gl Maru.
I'm a bit worried for Dark and Rogue actually, I believe that they are better than Serral but I also feel zergs in europe are actually sharper in ZvZ than korean zergs. I think any of the koreans that are not Z are slightly favored against Serral but in ZvZ I think its flipped.
On September 15 2018 19:53 Charoisaur wrote: can't wait for overhyped Serral to get slapped at Blizzcon
Where do you put Serral right now in a global ranking?
difficult to say with the lack of data due to him playing WCS but he'd be somewhere from 2-5. But the thing that annoys me is that people are acting that Serral is clearly above the top-tier koreans not named Maru and are expecting a Maru - Serral finals. There's nothing that suggests Serral is better than TY, Stats, Rogue, Dark etc... those have all won korean tournaments and would all easily dominate WCS.
Counterpoint
I'm aware but it's only 1 tournament. top koreans trade series with each other all the time, it proves he's around the same level as them but not that he's clearly standing above them.
On September 15 2018 19:50 IshinShishi wrote: Look, I am the biggest Mvp fan out there, if Maru wins Blizzcon I will accept him as the new GOAT, gl Maru.
Maru surpassed Mvp a season ago.
There are a lot of things to take into account, Mvp dominated when sc2 was the shit, stakes were much higher, the competition much wider and dedicated, simply because there was much more money and prestige to be had. Now, one could argue that Maru has surpassed Mvp with the 3peat, but I think he is not allowed to lose to a foreigner to get such an award, so we wait for Blizzcon.
On September 15 2018 19:50 IshinShishi wrote: Look, I am the biggest Mvp fan out there, if Maru wins Blizzcon I will accept him as the new GOAT, gl Maru.
Maru surpassed Mvp a season ago.
There are a lot of things to take into account, Mvp dominated when sc2 was the shit, stakes were much higher, the competition much wider and dedicated, simply because there was much more money and prestige to be had. Now, one could argue that Maru has surpassed Mvp with the 3peat, but I think he is not allowed to lose to a foreigner to get such an award, so we wait for Blizzcon.
Serral is not "just a foreigner". Plus TvZ is incredibly difficult on the new maps since the raven nerf
On September 15 2018 19:53 Charoisaur wrote: can't wait for overhyped Serral to get slapped at Blizzcon
Where do you put Serral right now in a global ranking?
difficult to say with the lack of data due to him playing WCS but he'd be somewhere from 2-5. But the thing that annoys me is that people are acting that Serral is clearly above the top-tier koreans not named Maru and are expecting a Maru - Serral finals. There's nothing that suggests Serral is better than TY, Stats, Rogue, Dark etc... those have all won korean tournaments and would all easily dominate WCS.
Counterpoint
Winning three series against Koreans like that is essentially the equivalent of winning one GSL Round of 16 and then winning a quarterfinal. And since Stats went up 3-2 in that match it's not even that.
On September 15 2018 20:03 [PkF] Wire wrote: Was wondering what Maru's stats this year looked like so I just had a quick look. Only looking at GSL the b word is definitely not out of place. But looking at Maru's whole year, it's harder to say. He's actually only 170-78 (68,55%) this year, so not in the 80-85% range that if I remember correctly were the standard in bw. We have to take the increased volatility of the game and the fact that Maru tends to adjust to the level of his opposition ; but still.
But if you look at his offline stats only he has 71 % winrate in maps and 82 % in series
On September 15 2018 20:03 [PkF] Wire wrote: Was wondering what Maru's stats this year looked like so I just had a quick look. Only looking at GSL the b word is definitely not out of place. But looking at Maru's whole year, it's harder to say. He's actually only 170-78 (68,55%) this year, so not in the 80-85% range that if I remember correctly were the standard in bw. We have to take the increased volatility of the game and the fact that Maru tends to adjust to the level of his opposition ; but still.
But if you look at his offline stats only he has 71 % winrate in maps and 82 % in series
true. Definitely one of the best years in sc2 history.
On September 15 2018 19:53 Charoisaur wrote: can't wait for overhyped Serral to get slapped at Blizzcon
Where do you put Serral right now in a global ranking?
difficult to say with the lack of data due to him playing WCS but he'd be somewhere from 2-5. But the thing that annoys me is that people are acting that Serral is clearly above the top-tier koreans not named Maru and are expecting a Maru - Serral finals. There's nothing that suggests Serral is better than TY, Stats, Rogue, Dark etc... those have all won korean tournaments and would all easily dominate WCS.
On September 15 2018 19:50 IshinShishi wrote: Look, I am the biggest Mvp fan out there, if Maru wins Blizzcon I will accept him as the new GOAT, gl Maru.
Maru surpassed Mvp a season ago.
There are a lot of things to take into account, Mvp dominated when sc2 was the shit, stakes were much higher, the competition much wider and dedicated, simply because there was much more money and prestige to be had. Now, one could argue that Maru has surpassed Mvp with the 3peat, but I think he is not allowed to lose to a foreigner to get such an award, so we wait for Blizzcon.
No, Mvp dominated SC2 when he was basically the only "good" BW pro playing SC2. The Elephant in the Room wasn't actually that inaccurate.
On September 15 2018 19:50 IshinShishi wrote: Look, I am the biggest Mvp fan out there, if Maru wins Blizzcon I will accept him as the new GOAT, gl Maru.
Maru surpassed Mvp a season ago.
There are a lot of things to take into account, Mvp dominated when sc2 was the shit, stakes were much higher, the competition much wider and dedicated, simply because there was much more money and prestige to be had. Now, one could argue that Maru has surpassed Mvp with the 3peat, but I think he is not allowed to lose to a foreigner to get such an award, so we wait for Blizzcon.
No, Mvp dominated SC2 when he was basically the only "good" BW pro playing SC2. The Elephant in the Room wasn't actually that inaccurate.
The elephant in the room was 100% right in that kespa players would dominate once they switched (Inno, Soulkey, Rain, soO,Zest), and only the most talented SC2 players would stay relevant (Life,Taeja, Maru.) Instead of keeping it at that, the writer let his inner fanboy out and assumed Flash and Jaedong would maintain their 2009-2010 form and keep winning forever. But the article is mostly right, i think 75% of GSL winners since the switch were ''elephants.''
On September 15 2018 19:50 IshinShishi wrote: Look, I am the biggest Mvp fan out there, if Maru wins Blizzcon I will accept him as the new GOAT, gl Maru.
Maru surpassed Mvp a season ago.
There are a lot of things to take into account, Mvp dominated when sc2 was the shit, stakes were much higher, the competition much wider and dedicated, simply because there was much more money and prestige to be had. Now, one could argue that Maru has surpassed Mvp with the 3peat, but I think he is not allowed to lose to a foreigner to get such an award, so we wait for Blizzcon.
No, Mvp dominated SC2 when he was basically the only "good" BW pro playing SC2. The Elephant in the Room wasn't actually that inaccurate.
The elephant in the room was 100% right in that kespa players would dominate once they switched (Inno, Soulkey, Rain, soO,Zest), and only the most talented SC2 players would stay relevant (Life,Taeja, Maru.) Instead of keeping it at that, the writer let his inner fanboy out and assumed Flash and Jaedong would maintain their 2009-2010 form and keep winning forever. But the article is mostly right, i think 75% of GSL winners since the switch were ''elephants.''
I think everyone interprets that article in a way that affirms their beliefs.
The way I read it, stars like Flash, Jaedong, and Bisu were supposed to be the "elephants" but it actually ended up being the non-stars or the young talent who ended up finding an opportunity in SC2 (Rain, Zest, INnoVation, etc). But I do agree that very broadly speaking, the KeSPA domination did indeed happen (just not achieved by the players many expected).
I think this is actually an important difference for the sake of the argument surrounding the article, because many BW fans derided SC2 for not being as skillful a game as BW, and the fact that the VERY best players of BW found mixed success in SC2 demonstrated that the games are merely DIFFERENT (which seems incredibly obvious now, but was a silly point of debate in 2011).
On September 15 2018 19:50 IshinShishi wrote: Look, I am the biggest Mvp fan out there, if Maru wins Blizzcon I will accept him as the new GOAT, gl Maru.
Maru surpassed Mvp a season ago.
There are a lot of things to take into account, Mvp dominated when sc2 was the shit, stakes were much higher, the competition much wider and dedicated, simply because there was much more money and prestige to be had. Now, one could argue that Maru has surpassed Mvp with the 3peat, but I think he is not allowed to lose to a foreigner to get such an award, so we wait for Blizzcon.
No, Mvp dominated SC2 when he was basically the only "good" BW pro playing SC2. The Elephant in the Room wasn't actually that inaccurate.
The elephant in the room was 100% right in that kespa players would dominate once they switched (Inno, Soulkey, Rain, soO,Zest), and only the most talented SC2 players would stay relevant (Life,Taeja, Maru.) Instead of keeping it at that, the writer let his inner fanboy out and assumed Flash and Jaedong would maintain their 2009-2010 form and keep winning forever. But the article is mostly right, i think 75% of GSL winners since the switch were ''elephants.''
I think everyone interprets that article in a way that affirms their beliefs.
The way I read it, stars like Flash, Jaedong, and Bisu were the "elephants" but it actually ended up being the non-stars or the young talent who ended up finding an opportunity in SC2 (Rain, Zest, INnoVation, etc).
On September 15 2018 19:50 IshinShishi wrote: Look, I am the biggest Mvp fan out there, if Maru wins Blizzcon I will accept him as the new GOAT, gl Maru.
Maru surpassed Mvp a season ago.
There are a lot of things to take into account, Mvp dominated when sc2 was the shit, stakes were much higher, the competition much wider and dedicated, simply because there was much more money and prestige to be had. Now, one could argue that Maru has surpassed Mvp with the 3peat, but I think he is not allowed to lose to a foreigner to get such an award, so we wait for Blizzcon.
No, Mvp dominated SC2 when he was basically the only "good" BW pro playing SC2. The Elephant in the Room wasn't actually that inaccurate.
The elephant in the room was 100% right in that kespa players would dominate once they switched (Inno, Soulkey, Rain, soO,Zest), and only the most talented SC2 players would stay relevant (Life,Taeja, Maru.) Instead of keeping it at that, the writer let his inner fanboy out and assumed Flash and Jaedong would maintain their 2009-2010 form and keep winning forever. But the article is mostly right, i think 75% of GSL winners since the switch were ''elephants.''
I think everyone interprets that article in a way that affirms their beliefs.
The way I read it, stars like Flash, Jaedong, and Bisu were the "elephants" but it actually ended up being the non-stars or the young talent who ended up finding an opportunity in SC2 (Rain, Zest, INnoVation, etc).
On September 15 2018 19:50 IshinShishi wrote: Look, I am the biggest Mvp fan out there, if Maru wins Blizzcon I will accept him as the new GOAT, gl Maru.
Maru surpassed Mvp a season ago.
There are a lot of things to take into account, Mvp dominated when sc2 was the shit, stakes were much higher, the competition much wider and dedicated, simply because there was much more money and prestige to be had. Now, one could argue that Maru has surpassed Mvp with the 3peat, but I think he is not allowed to lose to a foreigner to get such an award, so we wait for Blizzcon.
No, Mvp dominated SC2 when he was basically the only "good" BW pro playing SC2. The Elephant in the Room wasn't actually that inaccurate.
The elephant in the room was 100% right in that kespa players would dominate once they switched (Inno, Soulkey, Rain, soO,Zest), and only the most talented SC2 players would stay relevant (Life,Taeja, Maru.) Instead of keeping it at that, the writer let his inner fanboy out and assumed Flash and Jaedong would maintain their 2009-2010 form and keep winning forever. But the article is mostly right, i think 75% of GSL winners since the switch were ''elephants.''
I think everyone interprets that article in a way that affirms their beliefs.
The way I read it, stars like Flash, Jaedong, and Bisu were supposed to be the "elephants" but it actually ended up being the non-stars or the young talent who ended up finding an opportunity in SC2 (Rain, Zest, INnoVation, etc). But I do agree that very broadly speaking, the KeSPA domination did indeed happen (just not achieved by the players many expected).
I think this is actually an important difference for the sake of the argument surrounding the article, because many BW fans derided SC2 for not being as skillful a game as SC2, and the fact that the VERY best players of BW found mixed success in SC2 demonstrated that the games are merely DIFFERENT (which seems incredibly obvious now, but was a silly point of debate in 2011).
but I think what many people believe now is that Flash, JD etc would have been surpassed by the new generation (Inno, Rain etc) anyway even if the switch to SC2 didn't happen. The players who found success in SC2 are likely the same players who would've become stars in bw anyway.
In that sense the "elephant in the room" article is correct that the BW stars would dominate SC2. It only assumed for some reason that Flash, JD and so on would stay the top players forever.
On September 15 2018 19:50 IshinShishi wrote: Look, I am the biggest Mvp fan out there, if Maru wins Blizzcon I will accept him as the new GOAT, gl Maru.
Maru surpassed Mvp a season ago.
There are a lot of things to take into account, Mvp dominated when sc2 was the shit, stakes were much higher, the competition much wider and dedicated, simply because there was much more money and prestige to be had. Now, one could argue that Maru has surpassed Mvp with the 3peat, but I think he is not allowed to lose to a foreigner to get such an award, so we wait for Blizzcon.
No, Mvp dominated SC2 when he was basically the only "good" BW pro playing SC2. The Elephant in the Room wasn't actually that inaccurate.
The elephant in the room was 100% right in that kespa players would dominate once they switched (Inno, Soulkey, Rain, soO,Zest), and only the most talented SC2 players would stay relevant (Life,Taeja, Maru.) Instead of keeping it at that, the writer let his inner fanboy out and assumed Flash and Jaedong would maintain their 2009-2010 form and keep winning forever. But the article is mostly right, i think 75% of GSL winners since the switch were ''elephants.''
I think everyone interprets that article in a way that affirms their beliefs.
The way I read it, stars like Flash, Jaedong, and Bisu were the "elephants" but it actually ended up being the non-stars or the young talent who ended up finding an opportunity in SC2 (Rain, Zest, INnoVation, etc).
Just curious, how do you interpret it?
he just said it
Yeah, don't know how i skimmed over that. Still high on Maru's win i think.
Oh and we didn't even need the switch to happen for Flash and JD to fall, they were getting outdone left and right by Fanta and Jangbi in BW's twilight.
On September 15 2018 19:50 IshinShishi wrote: Look, I am the biggest Mvp fan out there, if Maru wins Blizzcon I will accept him as the new GOAT, gl Maru.
Maru surpassed Mvp a season ago.
There are a lot of things to take into account, Mvp dominated when sc2 was the shit, stakes were much higher, the competition much wider and dedicated, simply because there was much more money and prestige to be had. Now, one could argue that Maru has surpassed Mvp with the 3peat, but I think he is not allowed to lose to a foreigner to get such an award, so we wait for Blizzcon.
No, Mvp dominated SC2 when he was basically the only "good" BW pro playing SC2. The Elephant in the Room wasn't actually that inaccurate.
The elephant in the room was 100% right in that kespa players would dominate once they switched (Inno, Soulkey, Rain, soO,Zest), and only the most talented SC2 players would stay relevant (Life,Taeja, Maru.) Instead of keeping it at that, the writer let his inner fanboy out and assumed Flash and Jaedong would maintain their 2009-2010 form and keep winning forever. But the article is mostly right, i think 75% of GSL winners since the switch were ''elephants.''
I think everyone interprets that article in a way that affirms their beliefs.
The way I read it, stars like Flash, Jaedong, and Bisu were supposed to be the "elephants" but it actually ended up being the non-stars or the young talent who ended up finding an opportunity in SC2 (Rain, Zest, INnoVation, etc). But I do agree that very broadly speaking, the KeSPA domination did indeed happen (just not achieved by the players many expected).
I think this is actually an important difference for the sake of the argument surrounding the article, because many BW fans derided SC2 for not being as skillful a game as SC2, and the fact that the VERY best players of BW found mixed success in SC2 demonstrated that the games are merely DIFFERENT (which seems incredibly obvious now, but was a silly point of debate in 2011).
but I think what many people believe now is that Flash, JD etc would have been surpassed by the new generation (Inno, Rain etc) anyway even if the switch to SC2 didn't happen. The players who found success in SC2 are likely the same players who would've become stars in bw anyway.
In that sense the "elephant in the room" article is correct that the BW stars would dominate SC2. It only assumed for some reason that Flash, JD and so on would stay the top players forever.
Those players are still finding more success in BW today than they had in SC2 though.
On September 15 2018 19:50 IshinShishi wrote: Look, I am the biggest Mvp fan out there, if Maru wins Blizzcon I will accept him as the new GOAT, gl Maru.
Maru surpassed Mvp a season ago.
There are a lot of things to take into account, Mvp dominated when sc2 was the shit, stakes were much higher, the competition much wider and dedicated, simply because there was much more money and prestige to be had. Now, one could argue that Maru has surpassed Mvp with the 3peat, but I think he is not allowed to lose to a foreigner to get such an award, so we wait for Blizzcon.
No, Mvp dominated SC2 when he was basically the only "good" BW pro playing SC2. The Elephant in the Room wasn't actually that inaccurate.
The elephant in the room was 100% right in that kespa players would dominate once they switched (Inno, Soulkey, Rain, soO,Zest), and only the most talented SC2 players would stay relevant (Life,Taeja, Maru.) Instead of keeping it at that, the writer let his inner fanboy out and assumed Flash and Jaedong would maintain their 2009-2010 form and keep winning forever. But the article is mostly right, i think 75% of GSL winners since the switch were ''elephants.''
I think everyone interprets that article in a way that affirms their beliefs.
The way I read it, stars like Flash, Jaedong, and Bisu were supposed to be the "elephants" but it actually ended up being the non-stars or the young talent who ended up finding an opportunity in SC2 (Rain, Zest, INnoVation, etc). But I do agree that very broadly speaking, the KeSPA domination did indeed happen (just not achieved by the players many expected).
I think this is actually an important difference for the sake of the argument surrounding the article, because many BW fans derided SC2 for not being as skillful a game as SC2, and the fact that the VERY best players of BW found mixed success in SC2 demonstrated that the games are merely DIFFERENT (which seems incredibly obvious now, but was a silly point of debate in 2011).
but I think what many people believe now is that Flash, JD etc would have been surpassed by the new generation (Inno, Rain etc) anyway even if the switch to SC2 didn't happen. The players who found success in SC2 are likely the same players who would've become stars in bw anyway.
In that sense the "elephant in the room" article is correct that the BW stars would dominate SC2. It only assumed for some reason that Flash, JD and so on would stay the top players forever.
Those players are still finding more success in BW today than they had in SC2 though.
On September 15 2018 19:50 IshinShishi wrote: Look, I am the biggest Mvp fan out there, if Maru wins Blizzcon I will accept him as the new GOAT, gl Maru.
Maru surpassed Mvp a season ago.
There are a lot of things to take into account, Mvp dominated when sc2 was the shit, stakes were much higher, the competition much wider and dedicated, simply because there was much more money and prestige to be had. Now, one could argue that Maru has surpassed Mvp with the 3peat, but I think he is not allowed to lose to a foreigner to get such an award, so we wait for Blizzcon.
No, Mvp dominated SC2 when he was basically the only "good" BW pro playing SC2. The Elephant in the Room wasn't actually that inaccurate.
The elephant in the room was 100% right in that kespa players would dominate once they switched (Inno, Soulkey, Rain, soO,Zest), and only the most talented SC2 players would stay relevant (Life,Taeja, Maru.) Instead of keeping it at that, the writer let his inner fanboy out and assumed Flash and Jaedong would maintain their 2009-2010 form and keep winning forever. But the article is mostly right, i think 75% of GSL winners since the switch were ''elephants.''
I think everyone interprets that article in a way that affirms their beliefs.
The way I read it, stars like Flash, Jaedong, and Bisu were supposed to be the "elephants" but it actually ended up being the non-stars or the young talent who ended up finding an opportunity in SC2 (Rain, Zest, INnoVation, etc). But I do agree that very broadly speaking, the KeSPA domination did indeed happen (just not achieved by the players many expected).
I think this is actually an important difference for the sake of the argument surrounding the article, because many BW fans derided SC2 for not being as skillful a game as SC2, and the fact that the VERY best players of BW found mixed success in SC2 demonstrated that the games are merely DIFFERENT (which seems incredibly obvious now, but was a silly point of debate in 2011).
but I think what many people believe now is that Flash, JD etc would have been surpassed by the new generation (Inno, Rain etc) anyway even if the switch to SC2 didn't happen. The players who found success in SC2 are likely the same players who would've become stars in bw anyway.
In that sense the "elephant in the room" article is correct that the BW stars would dominate SC2. It only assumed for some reason that Flash, JD and so on would stay the top players forever.
Those players are still finding more success in BW today than they had in SC2 though.
because there they don't have to compete with the new generation outside of Soulkey and Rain (who btw are two of the absolute top players which adds to the theory that they would've become stars in BW anyway if the switch didn't happen).
On September 15 2018 19:50 IshinShishi wrote: Look, I am the biggest Mvp fan out there, if Maru wins Blizzcon I will accept him as the new GOAT, gl Maru.
Maru surpassed Mvp a season ago.
There are a lot of things to take into account, Mvp dominated when sc2 was the shit, stakes were much higher, the competition much wider and dedicated, simply because there was much more money and prestige to be had. Now, one could argue that Maru has surpassed Mvp with the 3peat, but I think he is not allowed to lose to a foreigner to get such an award, so we wait for Blizzcon.
No, Mvp dominated SC2 when he was basically the only "good" BW pro playing SC2. The Elephant in the Room wasn't actually that inaccurate.
The elephant in the room was 100% right in that kespa players would dominate once they switched (Inno, Soulkey, Rain, soO,Zest), and only the most talented SC2 players would stay relevant (Life,Taeja, Maru.) Instead of keeping it at that, the writer let his inner fanboy out and assumed Flash and Jaedong would maintain their 2009-2010 form and keep winning forever. But the article is mostly right, i think 75% of GSL winners since the switch were ''elephants.''
I think everyone interprets that article in a way that affirms their beliefs.
The way I read it, stars like Flash, Jaedong, and Bisu were supposed to be the "elephants" but it actually ended up being the non-stars or the young talent who ended up finding an opportunity in SC2 (Rain, Zest, INnoVation, etc). But I do agree that very broadly speaking, the KeSPA domination did indeed happen (just not achieved by the players many expected).
I think this is actually an important difference for the sake of the argument surrounding the article, because many BW fans derided SC2 for not being as skillful a game as SC2, and the fact that the VERY best players of BW found mixed success in SC2 demonstrated that the games are merely DIFFERENT (which seems incredibly obvious now, but was a silly point of debate in 2011).
but I think what many people believe now is that Flash, JD etc would have been surpassed by the new generation (Inno, Rain etc) anyway even if the switch to SC2 didn't happen. The players who found success in SC2 are likely the same players who would've become stars in bw anyway.
In that sense the "elephant in the room" article is correct that the BW stars would dominate SC2. It only assumed for some reason that Flash, JD and so on would stay the top players forever.
Which is just factually incorrect, Flash is still the best player in bw.
On September 15 2018 19:50 IshinShishi wrote: Look, I am the biggest Mvp fan out there, if Maru wins Blizzcon I will accept him as the new GOAT, gl Maru.
Maru surpassed Mvp a season ago.
There are a lot of things to take into account, Mvp dominated when sc2 was the shit, stakes were much higher, the competition much wider and dedicated, simply because there was much more money and prestige to be had. Now, one could argue that Maru has surpassed Mvp with the 3peat, but I think he is not allowed to lose to a foreigner to get such an award, so we wait for Blizzcon.
No, Mvp dominated SC2 when he was basically the only "good" BW pro playing SC2. The Elephant in the Room wasn't actually that inaccurate.
The elephant in the room was 100% right in that kespa players would dominate once they switched (Inno, Soulkey, Rain, soO,Zest), and only the most talented SC2 players would stay relevant (Life,Taeja, Maru.) Instead of keeping it at that, the writer let his inner fanboy out and assumed Flash and Jaedong would maintain their 2009-2010 form and keep winning forever. But the article is mostly right, i think 75% of GSL winners since the switch were ''elephants.''
I think everyone interprets that article in a way that affirms their beliefs.
The way I read it, stars like Flash, Jaedong, and Bisu were supposed to be the "elephants" but it actually ended up being the non-stars or the young talent who ended up finding an opportunity in SC2 (Rain, Zest, INnoVation, etc). But I do agree that very broadly speaking, the KeSPA domination did indeed happen (just not achieved by the players many expected).
I think this is actually an important difference for the sake of the argument surrounding the article, because many BW fans derided SC2 for not being as skillful a game as SC2, and the fact that the VERY best players of BW found mixed success in SC2 demonstrated that the games are merely DIFFERENT (which seems incredibly obvious now, but was a silly point of debate in 2011).
but I think what many people believe now is that Flash, JD etc would have been surpassed by the new generation (Inno, Rain etc) anyway even if the switch to SC2 didn't happen. The players who found success in SC2 are likely the same players who would've become stars in bw anyway.
In that sense the "elephant in the room" article is correct that the BW stars would dominate SC2. It only assumed for some reason that Flash, JD and so on would stay the top players forever.
Which is just factually incorrect, Flash is still the best player in bw.
In a severely talent depleted, no-team era of BW.
Don't get me wrong, Flash is a generational talent. But who's to say if teamhouses/teams still existed, with the old training regimen, that he would get equaled or even surpassed?
On September 15 2018 19:57 Morbidius wrote: Does Maru really need Blizzcon for people to give him credit? If you don't think a guy who won 3 GSL in a row is the best how would winning a weekender against foreigners to prove anything? To me he could go chill at some california beach and he would still be the GOAT.
If you are comparing whether Maru surpasses Innovation, I don't think Maru has matched Innovation's accomplishments yet. Aside from Maru's 3 GSLs this year, Maru won one OSL and one SSL prior to this year. Innovation has achieved much more over the length of his career in SC2: INnoVation
Innovation is still the GOAT for SC2, but that's my opinion (everybody has a different opinion). If you are saying Maru is one of the best SC2 players after today's GSL win, then I agree. I put Maru up there with the best SC2 players such as Innovation, Life, MVP, sOs, etc. But for GOAT, that means the best of the best. The best of the best, or GOAT, is Innovation.
If Maru wins Blizzcon, Maru would be very close to Innovation, or possibly overtaking Innovation as the GOAT.
On September 15 2018 19:53 Charoisaur wrote: can't wait for overhyped Serral to get slapped at Blizzcon
Where do you put Serral right now in a global ranking?
difficult to say with the lack of data due to him playing WCS but he'd be somewhere from 2-5. But the thing that annoys me is that people are acting that Serral is clearly above the top-tier koreans not named Maru and are expecting a Maru - Serral finals. There's nothing that suggests Serral is better than TY, Stats, Rogue, Dark etc... those have all won korean tournaments and would all easily dominate WCS.
On September 15 2018 19:50 IshinShishi wrote: Look, I am the biggest Mvp fan out there, if Maru wins Blizzcon I will accept him as the new GOAT, gl Maru.
Maru surpassed Mvp a season ago.
There are a lot of things to take into account, Mvp dominated when sc2 was the shit, stakes were much higher, the competition much wider and dedicated, simply because there was much more money and prestige to be had. Now, one could argue that Maru has surpassed Mvp with the 3peat, but I think he is not allowed to lose to a foreigner to get such an award, so we wait for Blizzcon.
No, Mvp dominated SC2 when he was basically the only "good" BW pro playing SC2. The Elephant in the Room wasn't actually that inaccurate.
lol...yes it was. I think it's fair to say now that the overall Kespa pool of players was stronger, sure, but not by much at all and certainly not at all what that article would have you believe. I don't feel like there is much room for interpretation here, it is very clearly trying to argue a strong correlation with BW results and expected sc2 performance.
Yeah, there were strong upcoming players like Rain, Soulkey, sOs, Bogus, and RorO who were in line with or even exceeded expectations. But then there were also massive flops like Bisu, Flash (he had two strong peaks but never making it past the ro16 is a big flop for his reputation), Jaedong (again, he had strong period but given the rep, I'd say his sc2 career was a flop), and to a lesser extent Jangbi and Fantasy (had potential but never looked like title contenders in anything).
The conclusion of the article very firmly states:
What’s your point?
I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch. Among this group there are a notable few that CRUSH any other players in terms of raw talent and/or work ethic and/or ability to learn. This knowledge cheapens any form of competition I see right now, no matter how much I try to enjoy the games.
Which is laughable and not anywhere close to reality. In fact, I think Kespa barely had 30 players that fit that description if even that.
Additionally, the rise of WCS between 2013-2014 somewhat screwed with the comparison, as if you recall, non-Kespa players had much more freedom to participate outside of Korea for easy money at the expense of a less rigorous practice environment. MC, MMA, Polt, Taeja, Mvp, NesTea, HyuN, Bomber, Jjakji and many more all weren't competing in Korea for some time. Which resulted in more Kespa dominance. People thought they were just running from the real competition, but look what happened the first season everyone came home:
On September 15 2018 19:50 IshinShishi wrote: Look, I am the biggest Mvp fan out there, if Maru wins Blizzcon I will accept him as the new GOAT, gl Maru.
Maru surpassed Mvp a season ago.
There are a lot of things to take into account, Mvp dominated when sc2 was the shit, stakes were much higher, the competition much wider and dedicated, simply because there was much more money and prestige to be had. Now, one could argue that Maru has surpassed Mvp with the 3peat, but I think he is not allowed to lose to a foreigner to get such an award, so we wait for Blizzcon.
No, Mvp dominated SC2 when he was basically the only "good" BW pro playing SC2. The Elephant in the Room wasn't actually that inaccurate.
The elephant in the room was 100% right in that kespa players would dominate once they switched (Inno, Soulkey, Rain, soO,Zest), and only the most talented SC2 players would stay relevant (Life,Taeja, Maru.) Instead of keeping it at that, the writer let his inner fanboy out and assumed Flash and Jaedong would maintain their 2009-2010 form and keep winning forever. But the article is mostly right, i think 75% of GSL winners since the switch were ''elephants.''
That interpretation of the article doesn't even make sense, because MC Nestea and MVP were all Kespa players. Waxangel got it correct. The article wasnt talking about just any Kespa players, it named names.
On September 15 2018 22:44 royalroadweed wrote: Quite a few feathers in Maru's cap.
Youngest OSL winner. OSL Royal Roader. Korea Triple Crown. 3 Consecutive GSL Victories. Best SC2 Proleague Player.
And unless he gets the dreaded terran wrists, he's still got 2-3 more years before his mechanics and reflexes start to decline.
He already has them, this was mentioned several years ago when his appearance and quality of play dropped. DOn't know what's his current state but based on the knowledge a relative o mine aquired(because of wrist issues not related to gaming but working ) it won't go away, you can just mitigate the damage. So it's just a matter of time
On September 15 2018 22:44 royalroadweed wrote: Quite a few feathers in Maru's cap.
Youngest OSL winner. OSL Royal Roader. Korea Triple Crown. 3 Consecutive GSL Victories. Best SC2 Proleague Player.
And unless he gets the dreaded terran wrists, he's still got 2-3 more years before his mechanics and reflexes start to decline.
He already has them, this was mentioned several years ago when his appearance and quality of play dropped. DOn't know what's his current state but based on the knowledge a relative o mine aquired(because of wrist issues not related to gaming but working ) it won't go away, you can just mitigate the damage. So it's just a matter of time
He had to quit temporarily in 2012 due to wrist injuries if I remember correctly. At least that was he reason he turned down the spot in the SKT house.
His peak was well after that in 2013-2015, so maybe it is something that can go away. Although he did have suspected problems in late 2015 as well.
On September 15 2018 22:44 royalroadweed wrote: Quite a few feathers in Maru's cap.
Youngest OSL winner. OSL Royal Roader. Korea Triple Crown. 3 Consecutive GSL Victories. Best SC2 Proleague Player.
And unless he gets the dreaded terran wrists, he's still got 2-3 more years before his mechanics and reflexes start to decline.
He already has them, this was mentioned several years ago when his appearance and quality of play dropped. DOn't know what's his current state but based on the knowledge a relative o mine aquired(because of wrist issues not related to gaming but working ) it won't go away, you can just mitigate the damage. So it's just a matter of time
He had to quit temporarily in 2012 due to wrist injuries if I remember correctly. At least that was he reason he turned down the spot in the SKT house.
His peak was well after that in 2013-2015, so maybe it is something that can go away. Although he did have suspected problems in late 2015 as well.
On September 15 2018 22:44 royalroadweed wrote: Quite a few feathers in Maru's cap.
Youngest OSL winner. OSL Royal Roader. Korea Triple Crown. 3 Consecutive GSL Victories. Best SC2 Proleague Player.
And unless he gets the dreaded terran wrists, he's still got 2-3 more years before his mechanics and reflexes start to decline.
He already has them, this was mentioned several years ago when his appearance and quality of play dropped. DOn't know what's his current state but based on the knowledge a relative o mine aquired(because of wrist issues not related to gaming but working ) it won't go away, you can just mitigate the damage. So it's just a matter of time
He had to quit temporarily in 2012 due to wrist injuries if I remember correctly. At least that was he reason he turned down the spot in the SKT house.
His peak was well after that in 2013-2015, so maybe it is something that can go away. Although he did have suspected problems in late 2015 as well.
It won't go away, I don't doubt Korean medicine or the teams paying big money to doctors, but my mom has both wrists damaged and it varies by day. Sometimes she cannot take a bag and sometimes she's runing around with her granddaughter in arms(9kg btw(the granddaughter, not her )) without issues. Bad days good days. I don't know how big the damage is, with a healthy style and good care he can minimaze the bad days but they are damaged and it's just waiting to fully hit. but maybe it wasn't the traditional terran wrist disaster I don't know, I'm not his doctor.
I love Maru the same way Noonius hates him, but I know he's hurt.
Edit> Actually if you check the todays video when Maru returns to the stage, his body language to me says - my body hurts. He's in so weird posture... but what do I know, maybe it's modern amongst the young, I'm old
On September 15 2018 22:44 royalroadweed wrote: Quite a few feathers in Maru's cap.
Youngest OSL winner. OSL Royal Roader. Korea Triple Crown. 3 Consecutive GSL Victories. Best SC2 Proleague Player.
And unless he gets the dreaded terran wrists, he's still got 2-3 more years before his mechanics and reflexes start to decline.
He already has them, this was mentioned several years ago when his appearance and quality of play dropped. DOn't know what's his current state but based on the knowledge a relative o mine aquired(because of wrist issues not related to gaming but working ) it won't go away, you can just mitigate the damage. So it's just a matter of time
He had to quit temporarily in 2012 due to wrist injuries if I remember correctly. At least that was he reason he turned down the spot in the SKT house.
His peak was well after that in 2013-2015, so maybe it is something that can go away. Although he did have suspected problems in late 2015 as well.
Maru on skt just sounds so weird
SKT was a better team than Prime or Jin Air during HotS. Maybe Maru would have been even better, or maybe they'd have turned him into a robot and he'd have never have developed his brutal aggressive style.
On September 15 2018 19:50 IshinShishi wrote: Look, I am the biggest Mvp fan out there, if Maru wins Blizzcon I will accept him as the new GOAT, gl Maru.
Maru surpassed Mvp a season ago.
There are a lot of things to take into account, Mvp dominated when sc2 was the shit, stakes were much higher, the competition much wider and dedicated, simply because there was much more money and prestige to be had. Now, one could argue that Maru has surpassed Mvp with the 3peat, but I think he is not allowed to lose to a foreigner to get such an award, so we wait for Blizzcon.
No, Mvp dominated SC2 when he was basically the only "good" BW pro playing SC2. The Elephant in the Room wasn't actually that inaccurate.
The elephant in the room was 100% right in that kespa players would dominate once they switched (Inno, Soulkey, Rain, soO,Zest), and only the most talented SC2 players would stay relevant (Life,Taeja, Maru.) Instead of keeping it at that, the writer let his inner fanboy out and assumed Flash and Jaedong would maintain their 2009-2010 form and keep winning forever. But the article is mostly right, i think 75% of GSL winners since the switch were ''elephants.''
That interpretation of the article doesn't even make sense, because MC Nestea and MVP were all Kespa players. Waxangel got it correct. The article wasnt talking about just any Kespa players, it named names.
If you consider them as Kespa players in that sense (which is not the way he meant it) it even furthers his point that the competition in SC2 at the time was... not the peak of SC2 skill. And that is taking the natural improvement into account.
On September 15 2018 19:50 IshinShishi wrote: Look, I am the biggest Mvp fan out there, if Maru wins Blizzcon I will accept him as the new GOAT, gl Maru.
Maru surpassed Mvp a season ago.
There are a lot of things to take into account, Mvp dominated when sc2 was the shit, stakes were much higher, the competition much wider and dedicated, simply because there was much more money and prestige to be had. Now, one could argue that Maru has surpassed Mvp with the 3peat, but I think he is not allowed to lose to a foreigner to get such an award, so we wait for Blizzcon.
No, Mvp dominated SC2 when he was basically the only "good" BW pro playing SC2. The Elephant in the Room wasn't actually that inaccurate.
The elephant in the room was 100% right in that kespa players would dominate once they switched (Inno, Soulkey, Rain, soO,Zest), and only the most talented SC2 players would stay relevant (Life,Taeja, Maru.) Instead of keeping it at that, the writer let his inner fanboy out and assumed Flash and Jaedong would maintain their 2009-2010 form and keep winning forever. But the article is mostly right, i think 75% of GSL winners since the switch were ''elephants.''
That interpretation of the article doesn't even make sense, because MC Nestea and MVP were all Kespa players. Waxangel got it correct. The article wasnt talking about just any Kespa players, it named names.
If you consider them as Kespa players in that sense (which is not the way he meant it) it even furthers his point that the competition in SC2 at the time was... not the peak of SC2 skill. And that is taking the natural improvement into account.
I don't understand. I absolutely agree that it's not what he meant and that's exactly what makes the elephant in the room prediction incorrect. People with Broodwar performances similar to that of Mvp are not elephants by the article's own definition. Disregarding the fact that the people whom intrigue names in his articles failed to make a significant impact on the scene is disingenuous. Pretending that talented players doing well is a revelation exclusive to the article is also disingenuous.
I watch a Starcraft 2 series every once in a while, and this one was fabulous. SC2 seems like such a great game still. They both looked to be at the peak of what you can do with Terran. In particular I didn't remember Ty to be such a decisive player, he was good at defending the proxies and sensing when to begin that counter push.