On December 08 2016 06:02 Ouga wrote: I don't whine at them almost ever. I don't really talk anything. But you can't teach someone how to beat hardest mutators really, who aren't doing any part right: no expanding, no right composition, no micro or macro. Being bad is fine, but should not search brutal mutations if absolutely nobody in the world is good enough to carry your ass I imagine there are lots of people who just queue for this 50+ times and are never even close to succeeding.
Would be cool to know how they reason about it. Do they expect to eventually be carried by a really good player? Do they expect to suddenly be able to beat the mission without really changing the way they play it? Yesterday I had an ally who built 2 forges and 2 cyber cores before he built any units. I guess going for 4 upgrades on 1 base is legit? Needless to say I left the game before long.
On December 08 2016 07:21 imJealous wrote: A little reminder on how the hybrid spawns work on this map since it seems so few people in the general populous have figured it out this week...
Each hybrid has a hard timer when it will spawn regardless if the game reaches that time, but they also spawn early if you push jinara across the map. Each spawn has a physical point on the map that will trigger them when jinara reaches it. So if you are ahead of the TIMER... don't push jinara forward needlessly. You can let her sit, and use the time to clear the enemies around where the hybrids will spawn or use the time to clear out the enemies in the center of the map making your final push to the last spawn easier and quicker.
I guess optimally you would want to push her the maximum possible distance without triggering the next wave of hybrids. But that's too in depth even for me!
On December 08 2016 06:02 Ouga wrote: I don't whine at them almost ever. I don't really talk anything. But you can't teach someone how to beat hardest mutators really, who aren't doing any part right: no expanding, no right composition, no micro or macro. Being bad is fine, but should not search brutal mutations if absolutely nobody in the world is good enough to carry your ass I imagine there are lots of people who just queue for this 50+ times and are never even close to succeeding.
Would be cool to know how they reason about it. Do they expect to eventually be carried by a really good player? Do they expect to suddenly be able to beat the mission without really changing the way they play it? Yesterday I had an ally who built 2 forges and 2 cyber cores before he built any units. I guess going for 4 upgrades on 1 base is legit? Needless to say I left the game before long.
On December 08 2016 07:21 imJealous wrote: A little reminder on how the hybrid spawns work on this map since it seems so few people in the general populous have figured it out this week...
Each hybrid has a hard timer when it will spawn regardless if the game reaches that time, but they also spawn early if you push jinara across the map. Each spawn has a physical point on the map that will trigger them when jinara reaches it. So if you are ahead of the TIMER... don't push jinara forward needlessly. You can let her sit, and use the time to clear the enemies around where the hybrids will spawn or use the time to clear out the enemies in the center of the map making your final push to the last spawn easier and quicker.
I guess optimally you would want to push her the maximum possible distance without triggering the next wave of hybrids. But that's too in depth even for me!
From memory, the following points are forced hybrid spawns
1-Push Ji'nara a bit after you kill front enemies of 1st base (between expansions) 2-Push after 1st base fully destroyed 3-Push after 2nd base fully destroyed 4-Push toward pit after final base fully destroyed
You need to know the layout of the enemy bases to tell whether you've pushed too far for hybrid spawn or play enough to tell at what point you'll trigger the spawn. The first spawn is something I've learned the hard way and now I'm somewhat familiar with.
Now it gets easier, clear every hybrid spawn before they spawn and u can roll em with timestop (i lost 4 supply void at 4th hybrid spawn) But make sure u push jinra as far as possible without triggering because clearing hybrids will take time and especially the last wave push her back very fast (that was our 2nd loss after 30mins -> facepalm)
Big Waves -> black hole and karax ulti; small waves -> karax alone
This worked against Terran Mech (Ravens are annoying though) and was very easy against toss (colossi/immo) - no experience against zerg, but it should work against every comp
I've been consistently doing really well with Zagara, but there just comes a point around the 3rd hybrid spawn where I can't really do it alone anymore and my team mate usually starts falling apart.
Honestly I know I could be better too because I'm usually floating some money but it just gets so hectic constantly being attacked in 4 places at once while also having to worry about clearing areas of the map, making sure jinara is in the right position, killing hybrids, and coordinating with a team mate who often times doesn't understand how to do this map most efficiently.
Then there's that bugged early wave that sometimes comes with way too many high tier units super early on that just fucks you sometimes...
So after playing a bunch I think Vorazun is the strongest, her time stops are invaluable and just overall feels very solid. On my second try I got paried with a Vorazun as Swann it felt so easy I thought this mutation was a walk in the park (I was wrong though).I never used her myself but I think can you can go basically any combination with her and succeed but karax and Swann are probably her best options.
I played most with Abathur Abathur matches up really well with Zagara because she can secure the expos relatively early, generating a lot of biomass in the process, making it really easy to carry as Abathur later in the game, the biggest problem I had was to defend against the abberations during the last push, my solution was to have around 10 guardians waiting in our main for them <.< I also did decent paired with Artanis, his high damage units (reaver and immortals) matched up pretty well with Abathurs tankiness and he can solar bombardment every set of hybrids making them very easy.
The best combo I played thought is probably Raynor and Artanis, I don't think they should struggle against any unit comp. Artanis have the solar bombardment and of course guardian shield. Raynor have his calldowns (making it so you can play very greedy early on, I went 1 barrack, cc,cc), marine medic (with guardian shield) and late game he easily holds off the abberations with mines.
I agree that vorazun is the best standalone commander for this one. My latest win was with a karax ally - we sim-city'd our bases with static D and dark pylons and pushed out with vorazun's invincible army. Zagara and Raynor are also good picks for clearing out the expos quickly and getting a solid footing to deal with aberrations later on. My only big complaint about Zagara is she relies heavily on her teammate for cooldowns if that horrible tier-3 wave comes in early - I lost one game outright because I was still on hatch tech when that early wave hit with a glob of archons =/
I also experimented with Kerrigan and Nova but struggled to find stability with them once the expos were taken. Has anyone found success with either of them?
I've only beaten it as Swann(+Vora) and Nova(+Karax?) but from several attempts it feels like the best commanders have to be Swann/Karax/Vora just due to their superior way to be defensive, while still being able to strongly help/push further.
Nova felt pretty strong again but I don't like mines as defense for this too much, again she suffers from slow exp more than others. When it comes to SOLO clearing the hybrid spots, I had problems as Nova with bad Karax allies who didn't know what top panel was. But I imagine Nova is probably the next best at solo clearing after Vora (and maybe carrier-Karax?) still so she should be in top5 easy. I still have interest in trying Raynor/Aba. But Kerrigan/Artanis are probably just too meh due to how much issues they have with air comps. Zag/Alarak just don't interest me for this :p
On December 10 2016 00:04 Jer99 wrote: I got rekt as kerrigan, gonna try Raynor next
Yeah I think Kerrigan is terrible for this. With Raynor you have to play mines for defense and bio for pushing. I still havent beat this on brutal btw but I ve seen several videos on youtube
It was really hard and couldn't finish it in brutal yet. The bugged 2nd atk wave makes it nearly impossible and I'm likely not playing Vorazun well to have that much trouble. I'll have to go read around to see what I'm supposed to do.
It would be an easy buildup for me with a weak ally EXCEPT for hightech/big 2nd attack wave. One of top worst mutations for me with pug partners. Premade Nova/Artanis, Karax/Vorazun, Karax/Artanis. 1 for ~20 pugging.
As Karax, what do you want to do? Because I'm thinking of going Karax since he doesn't need as much control as other commanders and playing with 1fps and 500+ ms ping is completely garbage.
Vorazun: Time Stop, Black Hole, and Dark Pylons are especially strong here.
Nova: Nova has the tools to deal with most compositions and can straight-forward brute force her way through this one.
Raynor: The early calldowns help a lot especially vs the bugged wave. An endless supply of Bio lets her struggle off losses. I find Mines/Banshees good here for defense as well.
Karax: Needs a good offensive ally, but he can anchor down the defense and push very slowly with Carriers.
Swann: Very similar to Karax, but has slightly better offense and a worse matchup against air.
Abathur: Can do really well here, but needs his ally to carry him through the first part of the game.
Alarak: You can't completely go mass Ascendants as usually as you'll run out of money eventually. A few Ascedents + Wrathwalkers works best. Still a bit shaky though.
Artanis: Immobile and lacks solid static defense vs ground, has no good options vs air.
Kerrigan: Immobilization Wave and Lurker/Ultra should be pretty good, but Kerrigan stands no chance in hell vs air.
Zagara: Suicide units don't do well when units have two lives.
0/5 for now vs brutal. I beat it ezpz with Hard but brutal is...mannn. I've been Vorazun x3, karax x1 and artanis x1. We almost beat it as a Vorazun/Nova. I was spamming dark archors and we got close. My best attempt was when I massed void rays and then my teammate lagged out, which sucks. I bet vorazun/nova if I massed voids would win but the nova laughed at me when I said I was going voids so instead I went DT/Archor and we lost after ~25minutes.
I think DT Corsair is the right way to go in general. Massive amounts of damage combined with disruption wave and death recalls actually makes this mutation really manageable if you can get through the early game. And ofc wall your bases shut with cannons and dark pylons.
I'm surprised you put Nova this high, I wouldn't expect her to do that well. Could you elaborate what makes her good for this mutation? What I can see for her are sabotage drones to weaken defense safely, mines from tanks to kill abberations later and airstrike to kill most stuffs once. The current problems are the bugged wave and attack waves that are on top of you with speed freak. Then there's the bases that are vulnerable to Outbreak.
Some random noob told me to "stop wasting time stops" when I knew it was going to be up again in time for the next hybrid spawn zzzz
Did it with a competent Kerrigan who deflected everything with omega worms, never felt like we were in any danger (double aoe stun op), but other enemy comps probably would've messed up our day in the early game.
On December 11 2016 02:10 Rizare wrote: I'm surprised you put Nova this high, I wouldn't expect her to do that well. Could you elaborate what makes her good for this mutation? What I can see for her are sabotage drones to weaken defense safely, mines from tanks to kill abberations later and airstrike to kill most stuffs once. The current problems are the bugged wave and attack waves that are on top of you with speed freak. Then there's the bases that are vulnerable to Outbreak.
She's overall just very solid. Tanks obliterate ground and Goliath/Raven is one of the best anti-air compositions available to any commander. Her units are also generally very sturdy, backed up by naturally high HP, mastery regeneration, Raven generation, and Defensive Drones. This means she retains units better than most commanders. Liberators work in combination with Turrets to defend Abberations. Tactical Airlift is very good as well as most commanders aren't very mobile.