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I understand that this is mainly a Melee based community but I was wondering how Teamliquid and it's members look at the Brawl scene and community.
Please understand what I post under here is my own opinion and you are free to criticize it. This is coming from a player who mainly plays Melee but will play Brawl and PM for fun.
Honestly as a Smash player I am disgusted by many people on Twitch chat (even if they are trolling) and many other Melee players actually receive Brawl as a game and as a community. To me I feel as though people see Brawl like a Starcraft 2 compared to Brood War, a completely different game with many people feeling like it destroyed the community.
Yes maybe it kind of did split the community and yes, just like Starcraft 2 the mechanics are completely different and are not really as similar as many people wanted it to be. But we have to remember that we are in the game as a whole community. Melee would have very unlikely made it to EVO without THE ENTIRE COMMUNITY (64,Brawl, Melee, and PM) rallying behind a single cause, that is getting Melee to EVO. I understand it might not be as fast paced and sometimes people might find it less exciting/hype but that doesn't mean it isn't any better or worse as a game (minus random tripping please Sakurai lol but that alone doesn't warrant the lack of support).
It's pretty depressing to know that Brawl was actually also a contender for being at EVO but it didn't make it anywhere near Melee as we can see today.
Sorry I kind of went on a rant, but I just want people to know that Melee isn't the only competitive game in the Smash community is. Also sorry to Smash 64 players that I didn't talk about 64, but it's hard to get a N64/controller now a days.
Please all comments and criticisms are welcome I want to know what TL thinks about it because the Brawl scene in my community is just as a big part of our Smash scene as our Melee scene.
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I think its better as a party game but not as good as a competitive game. Also god I hate metaknight, its just so stupid.
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I like playing metaknight.
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I think that the difference in SC2 vs BW and Brawl vs Melee boils down to not simpler mechanics but a smaller skill ceiling.
At first, everyone thought that SC2 was a bad game because it was easier. This turned out to either not be true or not to matter because the ease that the new game brought to the equation did not change the huge gap in skill from the very top level of play down. There is huge notable differences in skill between even a player regarded as the best at their race and someone barely regarded as top 10 at their race. At another level, the two games both reward mechanical play to such an extent that even the very best players feel how they could play even faster or multitask even better.
With Brawl, the changes brought to the new game made the highest level of play slower than it is in melee and introduced some serious balance questions in terms of some broken matchups that were not present in Melee.
SC2 was made to be a bit easier to learn than BW was, but it was still made to be a competitive esport. Brawl was made to be a bit easier than Melee... and thats it.
I love Brawl, don't get me wrong, I have played more Brawl tournaments than Melee and I entered more than I can count of either... its just factual to state that the game is easier feels less competitive for it.
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brawl is terrible to watch and i didnt like playing it either. While i super enjoyed meele even as a casual
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I feel like the Brawl community brought about a significant trend of serious study. Given that Brawl was lacking in a lot of aspects, its players attempted to push its boundaries as far as it could go strategically as well as technically. Never before 2008 had I even heard of people in Melee discussing frame traps or figuring out how to cover all of an opponent's options or stage control, but they became commonplace ideas in Brawl and I think that mindset of play began to leak over into Melee as well when players began switching back or playing both.
Not that Melee wouldn't have ever developed toward that direction anyway - people were constantly pushing the boundaries of the game - but between 2005-2007 it seemed like the major focus was on combos (the punish game) and 'mindgames,' while learning how to strategically approach the game was lacking at lower levels of play. As a player that mainly played in this earlier era, I find myself struggling to outgrow that mindset now - I can do weird stuff that newer players don't expect and get away with it, but against stronger players I feel even more strategically outclassed than ever. It's interesting and exciting and frustrating.
So for whatever part the Brawl community had in developing this mindset, I thank them for it. I was never able to get into the game after the first few months it came out, but I won't say that it doesn't have merit as a competitive game.
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On March 21 2014 17:01 d3_crescentia wrote: I feel like the Brawl community brought about a significant trend of serious study. Given that Brawl was lacking in a lot of aspects, its players attempted to push its boundaries as far as it could go strategically as well as technically. Never before 2008 had I even heard of people in Melee discussing frame traps or figuring out how to cover all of an opponent's options or stage control, but they became commonplace ideas in Brawl and I think that mindset of play began to leak over into Melee as well when players began switching back or playing both.
I think a lot more of that had to do with m2k then brawl tbh
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I don't really care whether Brawl does well or not. The Brawl community supported us (I assume) and I'm thankful but I don't feel as though I have to like/watch/care about their game in return. I don't want them to fail or anything but I just don't pay attention to the scene whatsoever and would never have touched the disc again if not for trying out PM.
Of course I had 'quit' for those 3-4 years where Brawl dominated Melee in numbers and only started playing again around EVO 2013 so I guess I don't have any experience being the 'lesser' community and therefore bitter and irrationally angry forever the way a lot of the BW forum was/is.
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On March 21 2014 17:35 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2014 17:01 d3_crescentia wrote: I feel like the Brawl community brought about a significant trend of serious study. Given that Brawl was lacking in a lot of aspects, its players attempted to push its boundaries as far as it could go strategically as well as technically. Never before 2008 had I even heard of people in Melee discussing frame traps or figuring out how to cover all of an opponent's options or stage control, but they became commonplace ideas in Brawl and I think that mindset of play began to leak over into Melee as well when players began switching back or playing both.
I think a lot more of that had to do with m2k then brawl tbh really, m2k and mango who basically appeared as brawl came out. the play in 2008 was still pretty fucking good.
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I think the fact that there were more entries for a third party mod at Apex than there was for Brawl speaks volumes. Not to mention how it's Melee whose competitive scene is growing.
Even if you're a BW purist and hate SC2, at least the former is designed to be competitive and has a bigger scene. I can't think of too many examples of where the sequel is so quickly punted to the sidelines. Maybe Quake 3 versus Quake 4.
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Idk about that. Sc2 was designed to be an esport but it was also designed to be a lot of other things that contradict what makes an esport amazing.
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On March 21 2014 19:45 puppykiller wrote: Idk about that. Sc2 was designed to be an esport but it was also designed to be a lot of other things that contradict what makes an esport amazing.
I think it's about intent. I disagree with a lot of SC2's design decisions but they definitely intended for SC2 to be competitive and spectator friendly.
When the intent of Brawl is to spit in the face of the same community that's made Smash relevant for almost a decade (at Brawl's release), the results are pretty clear.
I lined up like everyone else and paid the full $60 as a teenager to play Brawl based on how fun Melee was. And I was disappointed in so many ways it's hard to be excited for any new Smash game. Except PM, which is great.
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Well are we arguing about which is worse?
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All in all, Brawl is a fun game for casuals, both are Brawl is just garbage as a competitive game though. There's way too many gimmicks, the mechanics are too easy to learn and master, it's too easy to not die, the character balance is awful, and in general (and this is imo), it's no where near as fun to play and master as melee.
I have fun with Brawl with casual friends. Don't think I'd ever have fun playing Brawl as a ocmpetitive game
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I echo the sentiments shared by most people in this thread -- Brawl is a great party game, but it is unappealing as a competitive title. To quote the documentary: You can do it, but it's not pretty.
I disagree with your claim that Brawl is somehow not inferior to Melee. There are fewer combos, and you cannot string them together the same way. It rewards entirely defensive play. Meta Knight is broken, which is a shame because he's the only fun character as he actually has good combos and utility. The mechanics are too easy, and there are fewer advanced techniques. Balance is all over the place. And worst of all: It's. So. Slow.
Watching it makes me wish I was watching Melee. I respect people trying to make tournaments out of it, and if it's your game of choice and you dig it, great! Just don't expect me to care about a title where the creators deliberately tried to make it more casual (and succeeded), and don't expect me to tune into streams while the game looks stiff and unappealing.
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I played a shit ton of melee at uni and one day some dude brought in brawl.
fuck me that game was slow, i admit being jiggy didn't help but fuuuuck.
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Honestly, Brawl could be just as competitive a game as Melee was if the community devoted the same amount of time and energy into it. The problem is that the perception of the game (and a couple of the mechanics) makes Melee players uncomfortable, so the ones that WOULD put in the time and effort largely just stuck with the older game. It's that simple.
Personally, I enjoy playing both games casually and bear a bit of a grudge against competitive players for devolving my casual playgroup into "Brawl+, no items, final destination only" drech.
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On March 21 2014 22:12 deth2munkies wrote: Honestly, Brawl could be just as competitive a game as Melee was if the community devoted the same amount of time and energy into it. The problem is that the perception of the game (and a couple of the mechanics) makes Melee players uncomfortable, so the ones that WOULD put in the time and effort largely just stuck with the older game. It's that simple.
Personally, I enjoy playing both games casually and bear a bit of a grudge against competitive players for devolving my casual playgroup into "Brawl+, no items, final destination only" drech.
Honestly you're dead wrong. Everyone was hyped as fuck for Brawl when it came out. Everyone switched. Most people switched back soon after. Brawl had its fair shot. You're asking players who looked to melee for its incredible movement mechanics (just the variety of options to perfectly control your character), speed, and creative combo ability to put effort into a game that has none of that.
In the FGC, Melee has been compared to Jazz while more traditional fighting games were compared to classical music. Brawl would be like playing a recorder. Yeah you can get really good at it, even impressively so, but most people still won't give a fuck.
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Canada7170 Posts
My sister got Brawl pretty close to release. I didn't have a Wii (still don't) so she lent it to me. She said that I had the week to unlock everything I could for her.
Played enough of Adventure or whatever it's called to get her all of the characters and then made a few custom maps to unlock some other stuff. I was so hyped about custom maps for Brawl, and the whole process was still a huge letdown.
As far as actual versus games, I wanted to quit almost as soon as I started. Tripping is complete bullshit, and shows that the developers really didn't want any of Brawl to be competitive. After the hype of new characters and new moves died down, none of my friends were interested in playing. The game was too slow and floaty, and edge grabbing and recovery options were ludicrous.
I made a stage that looked like a big penis and gave it back to my sister.
I tried looking at the competitive scene a couple months later. All I remember is some match between IC and MK. MK kept "spacing" and flying with constant dairs, while the IC player kept trying for grabs. If he grabbed MK, it was a 0-death. So for me, I didn't like playing and I especially didn't like watching.
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