On October 15 2014 08:31 VayneAuthority wrote: yea after I thought about it a bit I am LOL'ing at the thought of them ever putting in any work to help smash 4 become competitive when they say every chance they get that it is a casual party game and nothing more.
Like they obviously dont give a shit to actually put through ike in this current iteration. If you thought he was bad in brawl he is even worse in smash 4, they legit nerfed him lol. I dont think any character even comes close to how bad he is.
The whining is real.
find the untrue statement in my post, it isn't whining. all facts.
Ok.
1. [They won't ever] put in any work to help smash 4 become competitive.
Nintendo has already put significant resources of time and money into sponsoring a tournament at E3. They wouldn't even know that there was a scene or who the top players are if they didn't actively spend money researching that.
2. ...it is a casual party game and nothing more.
Please show me where they stated that Smash4 is designed to never be competitive. Because that's literally what you're claiming.
3. They obviously don't give a shit to put through ike in this current iteration.
Please show me where they haven't spent developer hours on balancing Ike. I'll wait.
4. I don't think any character comes close to as bad as he is.
So, you've seen lots and lots of competitive results right? All those tournaments and games of Smash 4 that you've been hammering out? So you *definitely know* the tierlist, what his good/bad matchups are, which maps are bad for him, and all the ways that he can be played? Really? It'd be awesome if you shared with the class.
Frankly, you sound like the goddamn WoW Vanilla forums where players of a class would simply say "WAAAAAH, BLIZZ HATES SHAMANS" regardless of if they actually raided/pvp'd at a top level or not. Further, you're using random conjecture and presenting it as fact with exactly zero data.
So yes, you're just whining.
if you're clueless dont even bother talking to me, the creator of the game has said that wavedashing and all the other tech in melee was not meant to be hence why it was taken out for brawl as they see it more as a casual game then a competitive one.
Anyone that even has played smash 4 for only a week knows ike is near the bottom of the list. He was trash in brawl and you can simply look at the fuckin wiki but that's probably too difficult for some one like you.
http://www.ssbwiki.com/Ike_(SSB4) He lost power with barely noticable changes in speed/lag frames he is still complete garbage. If you aren't an ike main gtfo.
Here's another source for you just so you can feel like a dumbass
It would be nice if Nintendo pushed a competitive focus if they want the community to replace Melee/ PM/ Brawl with Smash 4 in tournaments (or at least, seriously consider adding Smash 4 into the mix), but Nintendo has historically been about purposely creating party/ family games, rather than true pro-gameresque competition. Hopefully, the competitive Smash scene will be able to work with what Nintendo gives them for Smash 4 (or just make Project4/ Project Smash4 lol).
Ah, some rational thought in this thread.
I think you have every reason to be concerned that Nintendo hasn't truly committed to making Smash4 a viable tournament game. They've acknowledged the tournament scene, but they're *well* aware that popular party games with replay value will be their bread and butter, not niche competitive fighting games.
My expectation is that Nintendo will spend the vast majority of their assets to make all the new game modes fun and replayable, while at least expending some to ensure a competitive environment should people wish to play that.
Certainly they've seen the resurgence in popularity of their game, and with the Wii U struggling, Smash4 *needs* to be a hit. Just look at how much has been added, Smash 4 is a GIGANTIC leap from all other smash games. As long as there isn't tripping and other random crap, I'm extremely excited for it.
That's what my problem has always been here. I don't think that not caring about game balance makes a better party game. I don't even care about the physics engine in the "party game" argument, but a game with less care in it is probably going to e a worse game in the end. Is anyone actually going to argue that melee was a worse party game than brawl? Both were fun, and the updated visuals of brawl of course made it feel better, because that's what sequels usually do. If they released brawl with melee physics (or if say, Nintendo officially backed PM as Smash 4 and made the graphics better/updated textures) people would still find it really fun. Cuz it's Smash.
On October 15 2014 08:31 VayneAuthority wrote: yea after I thought about it a bit I am LOL'ing at the thought of them ever putting in any work to help smash 4 become competitive when they say every chance they get that it is a casual party game and nothing more.
Like they obviously dont give a shit to actually put through ike in this current iteration. If you thought he was bad in brawl he is even worse in smash 4, they legit nerfed him lol. I dont think any character even comes close to how bad he is.
The whining is real.
find the untrue statement in my post, it isn't whining. all facts.
Ok.
1. [They won't ever] put in any work to help smash 4 become competitive.
Nintendo has already put significant resources of time and money into sponsoring a tournament at E3. They wouldn't even know that there was a scene or who the top players are if they didn't actively spend money researching that.
2. ...it is a casual party game and nothing more.
Please show me where they stated that Smash4 is designed to never be competitive. Because that's literally what you're claiming.
3. They obviously don't give a shit to put through ike in this current iteration.
Please show me where they haven't spent developer hours on balancing Ike. I'll wait.
4. I don't think any character comes close to as bad as he is.
So, you've seen lots and lots of competitive results right? All those tournaments and games of Smash 4 that you've been hammering out? So you *definitely know* the tierlist, what his good/bad matchups are, which maps are bad for him, and all the ways that he can be played? Really? It'd be awesome if you shared with the class.
Frankly, you sound like the goddamn WoW Vanilla forums where players of a class would simply say "WAAAAAH, BLIZZ HATES SHAMANS" regardless of if they actually raided/pvp'd at a top level or not. Further, you're using random conjecture and presenting it as fact with exactly zero data.
So yes, you're just whining.
if you're clueless dont even bother talking to me, the creator of the game has said that wavedashing and all the other tech in melee was not meant to be hence why it was taken out for brawl as they see it more as a casual game then a competitive one.
Anyone that even has played smash 4 for only a week knows ike is near the bottom of the list. He was trash in brawl and you can simply look at the fuckin wiki but that's probably too difficult for some one like you.
http://www.ssbwiki.com/Ike_(SSB4) He lost power with barely noticable changes in speed/lag frames he is still complete garbage. If you aren't an ike main gtfo.
Here's another source for you just so you can feel like a dumbass
There's different levels of balancing... I mean fox was balanced in Melee "because you SD so much with him" (approximate Nintendo statement) How about we look at some facts instead of just ranting at each other? a) Game balance has never been a priority for Nintenod after release. However, they have made changes after release, even in Melee (NTSC version differences+PAL). As far as I know, they didn't change anything in Brawl though. Complaining about one character being the absolute worst isn't productive argumentation in any way. Some characters will be worse than others, and if the characters concept doesn't mix well with 1on1, they do not care. They have stated to have designed some for FFA and some for 1on1 purposes. b) Nintendo's PR has changed for Smash4. They are not fighting the competitive Aspect of the game, but actually support it a little. Not a whole lot, but a little. We'll see how this developes after Launch phase. Promotional Launchtournaments are not "supporting the tournament scene", it's purely advertisement. Prohibiting Streams multiple times is what the face of Nintendo used to be. Now it is connecting with community figures to reach more fans. c) As far as I know Z-cancel was also on purpose, can't find anything on it at the moment... Might have been an accident, but it was redesigned for Melee anyway.
but lets not get more into that, this thread is not about game design or anything like that...
Just enjoy the new EVo trailer, and be happy that Smash has found its place at Evo for another year. No matter which iteration.
I'm rooting for both. You can also take your bickering to the comment section...
Honestly, i think so far the game mechanics are pretty awful lol. It's super heavy based on brawl more than anything else (i don't really see any of the "melee" part that was claimed to be a mix of melee and brawl haha) A bunch of the old quirky brawl mechanics are still in, as well as a whole host of new ones, for better or for worse
My personal instincts are it's going to be a terrible game for competitive, but that's just my thoughts. I can't really justify that, as some people are really huge fans of the brawl playstyle. These are just my opinions, and nothing more
Punish in sm4sh seems very brawl like again, mostly stray single hits with punish strings based on neutral reads combined with odd character specific quirks which heavily abuse the game engine to do crazy 0-death unescapable combos and the like. Very little room for reactionary punish play
Neutral seems as usual, very campy and defensive. Some characters take this to the extreme, leading to timeouts even on just 2 stocks. Some more aggressive play can come about from character specific mechanics that are also matchup specific, though this can skew the risk reward to both extremes which is very strange to watch
Custom moves are absolute garbage. A lot of them are ok, but some of them really break the game lol
Teams is even more garbage. Some serious mechanic abuse goes on here. You're going to have to do some really extensive banning to get teams to work (shame because brawl teams is actually quite fun)
If i had to describe competitive sm4sh, it's very very similar to brawl competitive play, but with more emphasis on the style of play you would see in the mid tier characters instead of metaknight/IC spam (though IC spam or a similar may happen eventually depending on how abusive the mechanics become)
On October 15 2014 08:31 VayneAuthority wrote: yea after I thought about it a bit I am LOL'ing at the thought of them ever putting in any work to help smash 4 become competitive when they say every chance they get that it is a casual party game and nothing more.
Like they obviously dont give a shit to actually put through ike in this current iteration. If you thought he was bad in brawl he is even worse in smash 4, they legit nerfed him lol. I dont think any character even comes close to how bad he is.
The whining is real.
find the untrue statement in my post, it isn't whining. all facts.
Ok.
1. [They won't ever] put in any work to help smash 4 become competitive.
Nintendo has already put significant resources of time and money into sponsoring a tournament at E3. They wouldn't even know that there was a scene or who the top players are if they didn't actively spend money researching that.
2. ...it is a casual party game and nothing more.
Please show me where they stated that Smash4 is designed to never be competitive. Because that's literally what you're claiming.
3. They obviously don't give a shit to put through ike in this current iteration.
Please show me where they haven't spent developer hours on balancing Ike. I'll wait.
4. I don't think any character comes close to as bad as he is.
So, you've seen lots and lots of competitive results right? All those tournaments and games of Smash 4 that you've been hammering out? So you *definitely know* the tierlist, what his good/bad matchups are, which maps are bad for him, and all the ways that he can be played? Really? It'd be awesome if you shared with the class.
Frankly, you sound like the goddamn WoW Vanilla forums where players of a class would simply say "WAAAAAH, BLIZZ HATES SHAMANS" regardless of if they actually raided/pvp'd at a top level or not. Further, you're using random conjecture and presenting it as fact with exactly zero data.
So yes, you're just whining.
if you're clueless dont even bother talking to me, the creator of the game has said that wavedashing and all the other tech in melee was not meant to be hence why it was taken out for brawl as they see it more as a casual game then a competitive one.
Anyone that even has played smash 4 for only a week knows ike is near the bottom of the list. He was trash in brawl and you can simply look at the fuckin wiki but that's probably too difficult for some one like you.
http://www.ssbwiki.com/Ike_(SSB4) He lost power with barely noticable changes in speed/lag frames he is still complete garbage. If you aren't an ike main gtfo.
Here's another source for you just so you can feel like a dumbass
On October 15 2014 08:31 VayneAuthority wrote: yea after I thought about it a bit I am LOL'ing at the thought of them ever putting in any work to help smash 4 become competitive when they say every chance they get that it is a casual party game and nothing more.
Like they obviously dont give a shit to actually put through ike in this current iteration. If you thought he was bad in brawl he is even worse in smash 4, they legit nerfed him lol. I dont think any character even comes close to how bad he is.
The whining is real.
find the untrue statement in my post, it isn't whining. all facts.
Ok.
1. [They won't ever] put in any work to help smash 4 become competitive.
Nintendo has already put significant resources of time and money into sponsoring a tournament at E3. They wouldn't even know that there was a scene or who the top players are if they didn't actively spend money researching that.
2. ...it is a casual party game and nothing more.
Please show me where they stated that Smash4 is designed to never be competitive. Because that's literally what you're claiming.
3. They obviously don't give a shit to put through ike in this current iteration.
Please show me where they haven't spent developer hours on balancing Ike. I'll wait.
4. I don't think any character comes close to as bad as he is.
So, you've seen lots and lots of competitive results right? All those tournaments and games of Smash 4 that you've been hammering out? So you *definitely know* the tierlist, what his good/bad matchups are, which maps are bad for him, and all the ways that he can be played? Really? It'd be awesome if you shared with the class.
Frankly, you sound like the goddamn WoW Vanilla forums where players of a class would simply say "WAAAAAH, BLIZZ HATES SHAMANS" regardless of if they actually raided/pvp'd at a top level or not. Further, you're using random conjecture and presenting it as fact with exactly zero data.
So yes, you're just whining.
if you're clueless dont even bother talking to me, the creator of the game has said that wavedashing and all the other tech in melee was not meant to be hence why it was taken out for brawl as they see it more as a casual game then a competitive one.
Anyone that even has played smash 4 for only a week knows ike is near the bottom of the list. He was trash in brawl and you can simply look at the fuckin wiki but that's probably too difficult for some one like you.
http://www.ssbwiki.com/Ike_(SSB4) He lost power with barely noticable changes in speed/lag frames he is still complete garbage. If you aren't an ike main gtfo.
Here's another source for you just so you can feel like a dumbass
Saying immature stuff like that makes the melee community look bad, since you're trying to defend it and people will generalize. We know you're on the internet and it's easy to hide yourself behind the anonimity, which makes it easier to talk in the way you do.
I highly doubt you actually talk to other people like that in real life though. So just calm down first when someone's arguments are pissing you off and defend your points without resorting to namecalling, it really doesn't help our cause to say dumb stuff like 'l8r nerd' or by calling the other guy a dumbass. It's a shame really because you obviously know what you're talking about in regards to the game.
Who still uses numbers to substitute parts of words anyway? This isn't MSN messenger.
On October 15 2014 08:31 VayneAuthority wrote: yea after I thought about it a bit I am LOL'ing at the thought of them ever putting in any work to help smash 4 become competitive when they say every chance they get that it is a casual party game and nothing more.
Like they obviously dont give a shit to actually put through ike in this current iteration. If you thought he was bad in brawl he is even worse in smash 4, they legit nerfed him lol. I dont think any character even comes close to how bad he is.
The whining is real.
find the untrue statement in my post, it isn't whining. all facts.
Ok.
1. [They won't ever] put in any work to help smash 4 become competitive.
Nintendo has already put significant resources of time and money into sponsoring a tournament at E3. They wouldn't even know that there was a scene or who the top players are if they didn't actively spend money researching that.
2. ...it is a casual party game and nothing more.
Please show me where they stated that Smash4 is designed to never be competitive. Because that's literally what you're claiming.
3. They obviously don't give a shit to put through ike in this current iteration.
Please show me where they haven't spent developer hours on balancing Ike. I'll wait.
4. I don't think any character comes close to as bad as he is.
So, you've seen lots and lots of competitive results right? All those tournaments and games of Smash 4 that you've been hammering out? So you *definitely know* the tierlist, what his good/bad matchups are, which maps are bad for him, and all the ways that he can be played? Really? It'd be awesome if you shared with the class.
Frankly, you sound like the goddamn WoW Vanilla forums where players of a class would simply say "WAAAAAH, BLIZZ HATES SHAMANS" regardless of if they actually raided/pvp'd at a top level or not. Further, you're using random conjecture and presenting it as fact with exactly zero data.
So yes, you're just whining.
if you're clueless dont even bother talking to me, the creator of the game has said that wavedashing and all the other tech in melee was not meant to be hence why it was taken out for brawl as they see it more as a casual game then a competitive one.
Anyone that even has played smash 4 for only a week knows ike is near the bottom of the list. He was trash in brawl and you can simply look at the fuckin wiki but that's probably too difficult for some one like you.
http://www.ssbwiki.com/Ike_(SSB4) He lost power with barely noticable changes in speed/lag frames he is still complete garbage. If you aren't an ike main gtfo.
Here's another source for you just so you can feel like a dumbass
It would be nice if Nintendo pushed a competitive focus if they want the community to replace Melee/ PM/ Brawl with Smash 4 in tournaments (or at least, seriously consider adding Smash 4 into the mix), but Nintendo has historically been about purposely creating party/ family games, rather than true pro-gameresque competition. Hopefully, the competitive Smash scene will be able to work with what Nintendo gives them for Smash 4 (or just make Project4/ Project Smash4 lol).
Ah, some rational thought in this thread.
I think you have every reason to be concerned that Nintendo hasn't truly committed to making Smash4 a viable tournament game. They've acknowledged the tournament scene, but they're *well* aware that popular party games with replay value will be their bread and butter, not niche competitive fighting games.
My expectation is that Nintendo will spend the vast majority of their assets to make all the new game modes fun and replayable, while at least expending some to ensure a competitive environment should people wish to play that.
Certainly they've seen the resurgence in popularity of their game, and with the Wii U struggling, Smash4 *needs* to be a hit. Just look at how much has been added, Smash 4 is a GIGANTIC leap from all other smash games. As long as there isn't tripping and other random crap, I'm extremely excited for it.
Thank you They definitely have added loads of novel things for the casual/ party players, and there are even new functions that can potentially help the competitive scene (like a map editor!). I'm sure there will be the occasional glitch that can increase the skill ceiling of competition as well, but I'm really hoping that the tier list is a bit more balanced. Obviously, it's impossible to make the game truly balanced with so many characters, but it would be nice to have as many realistically high tier characters as possible. Diversity can lead to really entertaining games and tournaments, regardless of the level of competition.
At this point it's safe to say that Smash4 IS Brawl 2.0. If you enjoyed Brawl, there is a big chance that you will enjoy Smash4.
Personally I've played Smash4 a bit by now, not a whole lot as I don't own it but enough to have an opinion. I'm just going to be honest, the game in my opinion is trash. Having it at EVO together with great games like Street Fighter (which I also enjoy) would be a joke.
I feel the same way as Zoler. I LOVE melee, brawl is meh, but wanted to go into smash 4 with a super open mind. And since playing the game, i've found that the game from a competitive aspect just isn't very good. at all. it would be a disaster for smash to be put up there with such wonderfully designed competitive games. especially since its melee that earned smash a spot at evo anyways
Coming from somebody that played Melee maybe twice ever, and played a lot of Brawl (casually), the right answer here is to have Melee at Evo. The reason being that Evo is supposed to be the summit of all fighting games, and with Melee you can assure that they are the best Smash players in the world. The competition has been refined for over a decade, and the games are incredible to watch.
Smash 4 will have been out for less than a year and there will be nowhere near the level of skill and mindgames going on if nobody really knows what they are doing. The games themselves will be inferior to what Melee could provide. I'm sure somebody will win the early Smash 4 tournaments by camping and abusing stuff that people don't understand yet. As a viewer, I'm not excited for that at all.
I get it, Smash 4 is the new game and Melee is the old one, but from a purely spectator perspective, I want to watch the best players play the game that they are the best at. Assuming Smash 4 ever catches up in level of competition and quality of games, unlike Brawl's effort, I'll happily accept it as the new norm. But for the time being, Melee is still the gold standard. There's a reason it's been around for so long, and even died off during Brawl and then came storming back.
watching a few games of smash4 at fightpittV has convinced me that it's nowhere near melee as a spectator sport. slow as hell, super campy in several matchups, just boring overall.
It would be nice if Nintendo pushed a competitive focus if they want the community to replace Melee/ PM/ Brawl with Smash 4 in tournaments (or at least, seriously consider adding Smash 4 into the mix), but Nintendo has historically been about purposely creating party/ family games, rather than true pro-gameresque competition. Hopefully, the competitive Smash scene will be able to work with what Nintendo gives them for Smash 4 (or just make Project4/ Project Smash4 lol).
Ah, some rational thought in this thread.
I think you have every reason to be concerned that Nintendo hasn't truly committed to making Smash4 a viable tournament game. They've acknowledged the tournament scene, but they're *well* aware that popular party games with replay value will be their bread and butter, not niche competitive fighting games.
My expectation is that Nintendo will spend the vast majority of their assets to make all the new game modes fun and replayable, while at least expending some to ensure a competitive environment should people wish to play that.
Certainly they've seen the resurgence in popularity of their game, and with the Wii U struggling, Smash4 *needs* to be a hit. Just look at how much has been added, Smash 4 is a GIGANTIC leap from all other smash games. As long as there isn't tripping and other random crap, I'm extremely excited for it.
That's what my problem has always been here. I don't think that not caring about game balance makes a better party game. I don't even care about the physics engine in the "party game" argument, but a game with less care in it is probably going to e a worse game in the end. Is anyone actually going to argue that melee was a worse party game than brawl? Both were fun, and the updated visuals of brawl of course made it feel better, because that's what sequels usually do. If they released brawl with melee physics (or if say, Nintendo officially backed PM as Smash 4 and made the graphics better/updated textures) people would still find it really fun. Cuz it's Smash.
I don't think care = balance though. More of my casual friends prefer Brawl at parties because of more characters and variety, and it's because it's a slower game. Mario Kart 64 is another traditionally hot party game, but it's nowhere near as skill-based as Diddy Kong Racing. Barring the glitches, MK64 is all about the randomness of items, where it's often times better to be losing until the very end, so that your items can let you overcome your opponent at the last second. It's much like Mario Party, where that's pretty skill based but then there's the Chance Time spaces that fuck up absolutely everything lol. The idea that even bad players can win sometimes makes a lot of these less-skilled party games more appealing to casual players. Nintendo has traditionally run on the platform of "Fun for the whole family [regardless of skill level]".
that tends to get blown out of proportion by nintendo haters though. If you are the best player in the room you are gonna win at mario kart or mario party 90% of the time, it leaves very little to luck. People just remember that one time they got boned and thats all I can think of.
(disclaimer I havent played any mario party past like 4 or 5 so I dont know what its like now )
On November 03 2014 05:03 VayneAuthority wrote: that tends to get blown out of proportion by nintendo haters though. If you are the best player in the room you are gonna win at mario kart or mario party 90% of the time, it leaves very little to luck. People just remember that one time they got boned and thats all I can think of.
(disclaimer I havent played any mario party past like 4 or 5 so I dont know what its like now )
I agree that it's not 100% luck-based, but there's a decent injection of randomness in a few of Nintendo's most popular party games, and Nintendo has its own justification for doing so (to make it more inclusive), and so I'm not surprised that we often find disagreements centered around randomness and imbalances when talking about fun and/or casual games. I don't know if Nintendo has ever tried to create an e-sport game, but it's certainly never been a consistent priority for them (despite awesome scenes like Melee and speedrunning that grew out of the games).
And I say this with the utmost love for Nintendo, because I grew up on their consoles and am probably the most passionate and nostalgic Nintendo player out of my friends (currently replaying LoZ: OoT ♥)
It would be nice if Nintendo pushed a competitive focus if they want the community to replace Melee/ PM/ Brawl with Smash 4 in tournaments (or at least, seriously consider adding Smash 4 into the mix), but Nintendo has historically been about purposely creating party/ family games, rather than true pro-gameresque competition. Hopefully, the competitive Smash scene will be able to work with what Nintendo gives them for Smash 4 (or just make Project4/ Project Smash4 lol).
Ah, some rational thought in this thread.
I think you have every reason to be concerned that Nintendo hasn't truly committed to making Smash4 a viable tournament game. They've acknowledged the tournament scene, but they're *well* aware that popular party games with replay value will be their bread and butter, not niche competitive fighting games.
My expectation is that Nintendo will spend the vast majority of their assets to make all the new game modes fun and replayable, while at least expending some to ensure a competitive environment should people wish to play that.
Certainly they've seen the resurgence in popularity of their game, and with the Wii U struggling, Smash4 *needs* to be a hit. Just look at how much has been added, Smash 4 is a GIGANTIC leap from all other smash games. As long as there isn't tripping and other random crap, I'm extremely excited for it.
That's what my problem has always been here. I don't think that not caring about game balance makes a better party game. I don't even care about the physics engine in the "party game" argument, but a game with less care in it is probably going to e a worse game in the end. Is anyone actually going to argue that melee was a worse party game than brawl? Both were fun, and the updated visuals of brawl of course made it feel better, because that's what sequels usually do. If they released brawl with melee physics (or if say, Nintendo officially backed PM as Smash 4 and made the graphics better/updated textures) people would still find it really fun. Cuz it's Smash.
I don't think care = balance though. More of my casual friends prefer Brawl at parties because of more characters and variety, and it's because it's a slower game. Mario Kart 64 is another traditionally hot party game, but it's nowhere near as skill-based as Diddy Kong Racing. Barring the glitches, MK64 is all about the randomness of items, where it's often times better to be losing until the very end, so that your items can let you overcome your opponent at the last second. It's much like Mario Party, where that's pretty skill based but then there's the Chance Time spaces that fuck up absolutely everything lol. The idea that even bad players can win sometimes makes a lot of these less-skilled party games more appealing to casual players. Nintendo has traditionally run on the platform of "Fun for the whole family [regardless of skill level]".
But there's the problem isn't it? Whether you're good in brawl or good in melee, you're still going to win vs people who are not good. Mario Kart and Party got it close to perfect, where it's possible for newbs to win while not being hated by better players. A fighting game is almost always going to be more intricate than other games, as you learn the stats of each character, what they do and what they can do to others based on the opponent's stats in Smash's case, you're not going to have a balanced session for everyone. I remember being a newb brawl player and a newb melee player (not that I'm not stilll a newb), and I didn't care about the physics between the two. The characters and the stages were what it was all about. The story mode was amazing. But later on when I figured out how much more depth melee had and what project M was, Brawl was the worst of the 3. Casual players just don't care about the depth of the games to the same degree as people looking for something competitive, but that's even more reason to design it for competitive people. It doesn't matter if you went back to melee physics, people would still buy it because Smash. See, when something doesn't work, you should try new things. They tried Brawl, and the audience looking for a more competitive Smash were disappointed. Instead of either going back to something that worked while tweaking it or trying something really different, they tweaked the style that a set of their audience didn't like. And for the people thinking that the competitive audience is small anyways, Nintendo shot themselves in the foot as well as being in a time they're probably still getting used to. Gaming companies are making more efforts to include Let's Plays into their business model, knowing that people can now know about shit tons of stuff about a game really easily. People will be more aware of the competitive scene, and seeing people do really crazy shit makes you want to play a game and try that really crazy shit. With the tournament they held, they probably made people even more aware.