Kevin Durant will be god-mode next year and may be the best in the league
hence... GSW will be unstoppable for at least a couple years (barring major adjustments from other teams)
LMA needs to go,
The Clippers need major overhaul. Rivers should let go of dual GM/Coach duty. Choose one, Doc.
Lebron is an all-time great, objectively top 5 of all time. But these finals, against teams of equal pedigree to Cavs, have shown that Lebron is only average-good on defense (he is great on chasedowns and help d's though) and he is really not clutch. He has the tendency to wilt under pressure. Without Irving, Lebron can't do it, and couldnt have done it last year.
The East really need to improve, otherwise they might as well just cancel the playoffs and make it auto-Finals for the Cavs as long as Lebron is there.
Good job Curry for avoiding stupid TOs and rushing threes like last year's finals, and instead playing a more disciplined mental game of passing, creating, and driving to the paint.
Kyrie is a scoring genius. Flawed, erratic, unrealiable at times, but he is a genius.
I don't think you UNDERSTAND the IMPORTANCE that Eldrick TONT Woods represents to this society. He is the PINNACLE of athletic potential and very close personal friend of mine.
On May 30 2017 03:52 Jerubaal wrote: I don't think you UNDERSTAND the IMPORTANCE that Eldrick TONT Woods represents to this society. He is the PINNACLE of athletic potential and very close personal friend of mine.
i realize ESPN is desperately trying to cut costs... why not fire Stephen Smith and hire a guy they can pay in Canadian money. 30% savings right there.
"All things considered, the numbers point to the Warriors claiming the NBA Finals rubber match. And those numbers are pretty one-sided -- ESPN's Basketball Power Index sides with Golden State by a huge margin."
I dont really get why so many people crticize durant for jumping on a super team. Didnt lebron do exactly the same thing with bosh/wade and now irving/love?? But yeah the nba need tougher competition.
On June 01 2017 01:14 Elroi wrote: I dont really get why so many people crticize durant for jumping on a super team. Didnt lebron do exactly the same thing with bosh/wade and now irving/love?? But yeah the nba need tougher competition.
everyone called him out then too. but i think durant gets more hate because he joined a 73 win team who have proven that they are already elite and can win. while lebron joined a 47 win team that lost in the 1st round and although he was joined by bosh, there was still the uncertainty of how it would pan out and im not sure if anyone had any doubts about the warriors.
Plus, the whole "he joined the team that beat him while he was up 3-1" thing. Durant really checked all the boxes to produce the weakest free agency move of all time.
I guess I don't mind the move because I've always liked Durant's game and wanted to see him play in an NBA level offense for once. That clogged toilet offense they ran in OKC was just ugly even though his talents made it effective.
On June 01 2017 02:03 ZenithM wrote: Plus, the whole "he joined the team that beat him while he was up 3-1" thing. Durant really checked all the boxes to produce the weakest free agency move of all time.
Reggie Jackson to the New York Yankees was prolly weaker. but different sport.
On June 01 2017 20:52 RowdierBob wrote: Can't believe how much everyone is sleeping on Lebron and the Cavs.
we'll know shortly if they are. i suspect the thinking is that the level of competition the Cavaliers faced in the playoffs is lower than Golden State's competition. That's why i'm taking Golden State.
On May 31 2017 05:13 Jerubaal wrote: Man, what kind of country are we living in where a man can't use his hard earned dollar to buy a playoff ticket and throw a catfish onto the ice.
they dropped the charges on the guy which i think was the right thing to do. i remember in the nWo's heyday everything but the kitchen sink got thrown into the ring at the end of Monday Nitro.
On June 01 2017 01:14 Elroi wrote: I dont really get why so many people crticize durant for jumping on a super team. Didnt lebron do exactly the same thing with bosh/wade and now irving/love?? But yeah the nba need tougher competition.
everyone called him out then too. but i think durant gets more hate because he joined a 73 win team who have proven that they are already elite and can win. while lebron joined a 47 win team that lost in the 1st round and although he was joined by bosh, there was still the uncertainty of how it would pan out and im not sure if anyone had any doubts about the warriors.
That is just hindsight on the Heat. When they came together they had the #1 and #2/3 (Wade/Howard) players in the East, and the #3 Big in the East. There was talk about whether they would break the Bulls' 72 win record, almost everyone picked them to win the title at the beginning of the year (and every year after that until they lost to the Spurs). Most people, at that time, if you had asked them where the Heat would be in 2017, they would have said, "Probably going for their 5th title in 7 years."
Well lebron join teams and they become strong, durant joined a team that were 2 times in a row in nba finals, winning one. Adding to that the fact he choked super hard in game 6 and 7 when OKC came back from a 3-1 deficit in the conference finals.
You can't fault good players wanting to play with other good players, but Miami was almost non existent from 2006-2007 until lebron joined them. Best they could do is a 1st round in playoffs...
Yes, and that team added Chris Bosh as well. A Wade-Bosh team should be a 55 win team. People are rewriting history on the Heat. Almost everyone expected them to 3-Peat minimum when the team was formed.
Also, JR Smith is just committing flagrants on every possession right now.
Or if the Cavs weren't getting bailed out by the refs. TT should have like 15 fouls (despite playing like a fat clown) judged by the Draymond-Zaza standard. The Cavs are this "close" based on making 3s, meanwhile the Dubs are killing it on drives and getting nothing from the stripes.
On June 02 2017 11:45 cLutZ wrote: Or if the Cavs weren't getting bailed out by the refs. TT should have like 15 fouls (despite playing like a fat clown) judged by the Draymond-Zaza standard. The Cavs are this "close" based on making 3s, meanwhile the Dubs are killing it on drives and getting nothing from the stripes.
The dubs have been getting questionable calls all game.
On June 02 2017 11:45 cLutZ wrote: Or if the Cavs weren't getting bailed out by the refs. TT should have like 15 fouls (despite playing like a fat clown) judged by the Draymond-Zaza standard. The Cavs are this "close" based on making 3s, meanwhile the Dubs are killing it on drives and getting nothing from the stripes.
The dubs have been getting questionable calls all game.
They have been getting questionable no-calls when they are playing defense. Both teams have. The Free throws right now are 21-16 CLE, based on how they are playing it should be reversed, actually it should be significantly more GSW than reversed.
Look at the bright side, the Warriors won by 20 with Klay and Draymond not scoring hardly at all. Would have been an even bigger blowout if Klay knocked down just half of his shots.
Pretty sure every pick that Tristan Thompson sets is a moving/holding screen that is definitely an offensive foul. Not to mention the no travel calls on the patented LeBron 3 step to the basket.
On June 02 2017 11:41 xDaunt wrote: This game would be an absolute clowning if Klay could shoot worth a damn.
Part of the toaster sacrifice. Warriors 4-0?
On June 02 2017 11:21 zdarr wrote: Well lebron join teams and they become strong, durant joined a team that were 2 times in a row in nba finals, winning one. Adding to that the fact he choked super hard in game 6 and 7 when OKC came back from a 3-1 deficit in the conference finals.
You can't fault good players wanting to play with other good players, but Miami was almost non existent from 2006-2007 until lebron joined them. Best they could do is a 1st round in playoffs...
I am what you might call Lebron-neutral. I dont mind the guy, he plays to win, and he certainly wants to be considered goat. I respect him for that. But the ongoing narrative is absolutely false. Lebron did not just join a team and make it great. He joined a championship caliber Heat and added a few surefire HOF superstar players. And when he realized his superteam could not win anymore, he jumped ship to join #1 Irving and again demand a few superstar players. I'll leave to the haters to talk about how he chokes on big games and how he is constantly being saved by other superstars, but what I want to emphasize is that if he aims to be GOAT, he should be criticized on that level as well.
Having said that, the Durant to warriors move is dirty af. Its like a kid joining his bullies after being beat up for so long so he could get a chance to win. But like Lebron joining Wade, I understand the bottomline essence of it. They are both 10+ years superstar veterans of the league, and at that point the pressure to win a ring must be terribly crushing. Its a case of winning a ring at all costs.
I liked the warriors pre Durant , now i cant stand them , on the other side i have the other player i dont like in the league the best case for me was a final without both or just one of them so i can root for the other one, first finals series i am not watching which says a lot about the state of the NBA for me sad sad days.
the officiating was fair. 1. they let more contact go in the playoffs 2 calls get missed and messed up in every game. the referees are not god and never have been.
the score represented the play. Golden State outplayed Cleveland by a big margin.
Cleveland's path to victory last year involved totally ignoring Harrison Barnes. Golden State's offense short circuits when there is a designated open guy who keeps bricking open shots. If Klay keeps shooting the way he does in these playoffs, they might give him the Barnes treatment.
Of course, since this is Klay Thompson, he might randomly go for 60 points or shoot the Warriors out of the game. We'll never know.
there's gonna be 3v3 basketball in the olympics, probably for toyko. anyone think nba players would just win easily in the event or do u think there's anything about 3v3 that would trouble them?
On June 02 2017 23:54 andrewlt wrote: Cleveland's path to victory last year involved totally ignoring Harrison Barnes. Golden State's offense short circuits when there is a designated open guy who keeps bricking open shots. If Klay keeps shooting the way he does in these playoffs, they might give him the Barnes treatment.
Of course, since this is Klay Thompson, he might randomly go for 60 points or shoot the Warriors out of the game. We'll never know.
I don't think it really matters whether Klay keeps bricking shots. There are two big differences from last year. First, and most obviously, the Warriors now have two players who can create their own offense when left in single coverage. Second, the Cavs defense is not what it was last year. I picked the Warriors to sweep, and I wouldn't be surprised if they do it with 10+ point average margin of victory.
On June 03 2017 02:11 xDaunt wrote: First, and most obviously, the Warriors now have two players who can create their own offense when left in single coverage. Second, the Cavs defense is not what it was last year. I picked the Warriors to sweep, and I wouldn't be surprised if they do it with 10+ point average margin of victory.
i think its an increase in turnovers that is giving the Cleveland defense an almost impossible task on many possessions.
if Leonard stayed healthy the Spurs would've given the Warriors a good series. the eastern conference took a pretty big step backwards this year.
On June 03 2017 02:11 xDaunt wrote: First, and most obviously, the Warriors now have two players who can create their own offense when left in single coverage. Second, the Cavs defense is not what it was last year. I picked the Warriors to sweep, and I wouldn't be surprised if they do it with 10+ point average margin of victory.
if Leonard stayed healthy the Spurs would've given the Warriors a good series. the eastern conference took a pretty big step backwards this year.
Even if you reduce the turnovers, last night's game was closer than it should have been. Draymond and Klay were both bricking shots. The Warriors also missed a ton of layups -- particularly in the first half. That was a mediocre Warriors performance offensively (especially given how good their defense was), and I don't think that the Cavs can reasonably expect to see those types of numbers again.
On June 03 2017 02:11 xDaunt wrote: First, and most obviously, the Warriors now have two players who can create their own offense when left in single coverage. Second, the Cavs defense is not what it was last year. I picked the Warriors to sweep, and I wouldn't be surprised if they do it with 10+ point average margin of victory.
if Leonard stayed healthy the Spurs would've given the Warriors a good series. the eastern conference took a pretty big step backwards this year.
Even if you reduce the turnovers, last night's game was closer than it should have been. Draymond and Klay were both bricking shots. The Warriors also missed a ton of layups -- particularly in the first half. That was a mediocre Warriors performance offensively (especially given how good their defense was), and I don't think that the Cavs can reasonably expect to see those types of numbers again.
Can't expect the Warriors to be good on offense every game. They're going to have their share of mediocre to bad performances offensively. This Cavs team is built like the Rockets. They are attempting to outshoot the Warriors. Most of their new role players are offense first types. The Warriors can get better on offense but so can the Cavs. They were really bad last night.
On June 03 2017 02:11 xDaunt wrote: First, and most obviously, the Warriors now have two players who can create their own offense when left in single coverage. Second, the Cavs defense is not what it was last year. I picked the Warriors to sweep, and I wouldn't be surprised if they do it with 10+ point average margin of victory.
if Leonard stayed healthy the Spurs would've given the Warriors a good series. the eastern conference took a pretty big step backwards this year.
Even if you reduce the turnovers, last night's game was closer than it should have been. Draymond and Klay were both bricking shots. The Warriors also missed a ton of layups -- particularly in the first half. That was a mediocre Warriors performance offensively (especially given how good their defense was), and I don't think that the Cavs can reasonably expect to see those types of numbers again.
Cleveland's offense will continue to be plagued by turnovers throughout this series. Its been a problem for months against clearly inferior opposition. of the 11 live-ball TOs GS scored 17 points... so that's 1.55 points per possession. So the shortcomings of Cleveland's sloppy, risk-seeking offense will make their defense appear worse than it is. Had GS been shooting better then Cleveland's defense looks even worse as you noted.
On June 02 2017 23:54 andrewlt wrote: Cleveland's path to victory last year involved totally ignoring Harrison Barnes. Golden State's offense short circuits when there is a designated open guy who keeps bricking open shots. If Klay keeps shooting the way he does in these playoffs, they might give him the Barnes treatment....
Notice Cleveland had Zero steals last night. I think that's the sign of a defense taking zero risks and always trying to cover all 5 players. It'll be interesting to see if Cleveland starts ignoring Thompson or another Warrior in the way they ignored barnes last year.
On June 03 2017 02:11 xDaunt wrote: First, and most obviously, the Warriors now have two players who can create their own offense when left in single coverage. Second, the Cavs defense is not what it was last year. I picked the Warriors to sweep, and I wouldn't be surprised if they do it with 10+ point average margin of victory.
if Leonard stayed healthy the Spurs would've given the Warriors a good series. the eastern conference took a pretty big step backwards this year.
Even if you reduce the turnovers, last night's game was closer than it should have been. Draymond and Klay were both bricking shots. The Warriors also missed a ton of layups -- particularly in the first half. That was a mediocre Warriors performance offensively (especially given how good their defense was), and I don't think that the Cavs can reasonably expect to see those types of numbers again.
Can't expect the Warriors to be good on offense every game. They're going to have their share of mediocre to bad performances offensively. This Cavs team is built like the Rockets. They are attempting to outshoot the Warriors. Most of their new role players are offense first types. The Warriors can get better on offense but so can the Cavs. They were really bad last night.
The warriors were bad on offense last night. It was a brick show on open 3s for anyone but Curry. The Cavs mostly converted thier open looks (they just didn't have enough). The Cavs need Kyrie and LeBron to start converting contested layups at a ridiculously high rate to sag the defense off shooters. Or they need the refs to call ticky tack foils on those drives (while ignoring them on the other end).
TT is probably also the key, he needs to dominate the glass and get those easy putbacks to the tune of about 15 points.
On June 03 2017 02:11 xDaunt wrote: First, and most obviously, the Warriors now have two players who can create their own offense when left in single coverage. Second, the Cavs defense is not what it was last year. I picked the Warriors to sweep, and I wouldn't be surprised if they do it with 10+ point average margin of victory.
if Leonard stayed healthy the Spurs would've given the Warriors a good series. the eastern conference took a pretty big step backwards this year.
Even if you reduce the turnovers, last night's game was closer than it should have been. Draymond and Klay were both bricking shots. The Warriors also missed a ton of layups -- particularly in the first half. That was a mediocre Warriors performance offensively (especially given how good their defense was), and I don't think that the Cavs can reasonably expect to see those types of numbers again.
Can't expect the Warriors to be good on offense every game. They're going to have their share of mediocre to bad performances offensively. This Cavs team is built like the Rockets. They are attempting to outshoot the Warriors. Most of their new role players are offense first types. The Warriors can get better on offense but so can the Cavs. They were really bad last night.
The warriors were bad on offense last night. It was a brick show on open 3s for anyone but Curry. The Cavs mostly converted thier open looks (they just didn't have enough). The Cavs need Kyrie and LeBron to start converting contested layups at a ridiculously high rate to sag the defense off shooters. Or they need the refs to call ticky tack foils on those drives (while ignoring them on the other end).
TT is probably also the key, he needs to dominate the glass and get those easy putbacks to the tune of about 15 points.
I agree. A lot of that did happen last year. I do agree with Daryl Morey that the way the Cavs are doing it is the best way to try to upset the Warriors. It already happened once.
I thought it was just me but holy fuck was this game terrible! I don't think I've ever seen a team bitch at the refs as much as GSW. How does Draymond Green not have at least 1 tech? Aren't the refs super trigger happy with calling them these days. And the Cavs are SOOOO bad. And this is a team that basically swept every team in the East? Is the NBA really this bad now? I've never liked Lebron but can the dude get a fucking call? And does anyone else on the Cavs besides Lebron actually want to win the game? Also can someone explain to me why the NBA blocked Chris Paul from going to the Lakers several years ago but Kevin Durant is allowed to go a 73 win team?
On June 05 2017 11:33 wuhan_clan wrote: I thought it was just me but holy fuck was this game terrible! I don't think I've ever seen a team bitch at the refs as much as GSW. How does Draymond Green not have at least 1 tech? Aren't the refs super trigger happy with calling them these days. And the Cavs are SOOOO bad. And this is a team that basically swept every team in the East? Is the NBA really this bad now? I've never liked Lebron but can the dude get a fucking call? And does anyone else on the Cavs besides Lebron actually want to win the game? Also can someone explain to me why the NBA blocked Chris Paul from going to the Lakers several years ago but Kevin Durant is allowed to go a 73 win team?
The East is terrible, but the Warriors are just a historically good team. No one was going to beat them this year. The Cavs are good, but they simply aren't good enough.
As for the Chris Paul thing, that was a trade, whereas the KD signing was a free agency move. There is nothing that the league can do about the latter.
On June 05 2017 11:20 blobrus wrote: Warriors players sure complain a lot for a team that somehow manages to get even more ticky tacky foul calls than a lebron team.
Also this series is complete shit and I am sad for the current state of the NBA.
Dubs got more fouls because the Cavs are terrible defenders. If every foul was called, the Cavs wouldn't have an offense as Lebron commits 1+ offensive fouls per possession.
On June 05 2017 11:33 wuhan_clan wrote: I thought it was just me but holy fuck was this game terrible! I don't think I've ever seen a team bitch at the refs as much as GSW. How does Draymond Green not have at least 1 tech? Aren't the refs super trigger happy with calling them these days. And the Cavs are SOOOO bad. And this is a team that basically swept every team in the East? Is the NBA really this bad now? I've never liked Lebron but can the dude get a fucking call? And does anyone else on the Cavs besides Lebron actually want to win the game? Also can someone explain to me why the NBA blocked Chris Paul from going to the Lakers several years ago but Kevin Durant is allowed to go a 73 win team?
Because these Dubs are a good team that needed Durant to become a great team (playoff-wise). If you disagree, please explain how both Cleveland and OKC took last years team to the 7th game, and 2015 Memphis took them 6. A healthy Spurs takes them a hard 5 or a soft 6. This is nothing unpredictable for championship teams.
The problem with the NBA is 2 fold. #1 is the East which has the profound problem of its best player also being on a team which would be top 3 without him for the past 7 years. #2 is that the 3 PT shot, as players increasingly get skilled at it, and increasingly understand its value, breaks the sport without the handcheck.
The Cavaliers are prolly the 3rd or 4th best team in the NBA this year. Fortunately, for them the rest of the Eastern Conference ain't very good. Last year the Raptors were 6-9 against the Cavs and the top 3 west teams. This year the Raptors were 1-12. Boston was 14-18 against teams .500 or better.
How do you manage to play an 82 game sched and only have 32 games against teams .500+ ? play in the Atlantic.
On June 05 2017 11:41 xDaunt wrote: No one was going to beat them this year.
a healthy San Antonio team gives the Warriors a good test. the Warriors should win but its not a foregone conclusion.
On June 05 2017 11:20 blobrus wrote: Warriors players sure complain a lot for a team that somehow manages to get even more ticky tacky foul calls than a lebron team.
Also this series is complete shit and I am sad for the current state of the NBA.
Dubs got more fouls because the Cavs are terrible defenders. If every foul was called, the Cavs wouldn't have an offense as Lebron commits 1+ offensive fouls per possession.
On June 05 2017 11:33 wuhan_clan wrote: I thought it was just me but holy fuck was this game terrible! I don't think I've ever seen a team bitch at the refs as much as GSW. How does Draymond Green not have at least 1 tech? Aren't the refs super trigger happy with calling them these days. And the Cavs are SOOOO bad. And this is a team that basically swept every team in the East? Is the NBA really this bad now? I've never liked Lebron but can the dude get a fucking call? And does anyone else on the Cavs besides Lebron actually want to win the game? Also can someone explain to me why the NBA blocked Chris Paul from going to the Lakers several years ago but Kevin Durant is allowed to go a 73 win team?
Because these Dubs are a good team that needed Durant to become a great team (playoff-wise). If you disagree, please explain how both Cleveland and OKC took last years team to the 7th game, and 2015 Memphis took them 6. A healthy Spurs takes them a hard 5 or a soft 6. This is nothing unpredictable for championship teams.
The problem with the NBA is 2 fold. #1 is the East which has the profound problem of its best player also being on a team which would be top 3 without him for the past 7 years. #2 is that the 3 PT shot, as players increasingly get skilled at it, and increasingly understand its value, breaks the sport without the handcheck.
I think that the Warriors would have done better and won the title last year if Curry was healthy.
Cavs were heavily injured during the Warrior's first title, and the Warriors were heavily injured during the Cav's first title. This series seems to be the only one where both teams are at full strength (except the Warriors now have Durant >.>..)
If LeBron could play 48 minutes non-stop and have unlimited energy then Cavs could have a shot. He looked gassed after attacking the rim non stop in the first quarter. He did not much in the 2nd half.
On June 05 2017 11:33 wuhan_clan wrote: I thought it was just me but holy fuck was this game terrible! I don't think I've ever seen a team bitch at the refs as much as GSW. How does Draymond Green not have at least 1 tech? Aren't the refs super trigger happy with calling them these days. And the Cavs are SOOOO bad. And this is a team that basically swept every team in the East? Is the NBA really this bad now? I've never liked Lebron but can the dude get a fucking call? And does anyone else on the Cavs besides Lebron actually want to win the game? Also can someone explain to me why the NBA blocked Chris Paul from going to the Lakers several years ago but Kevin Durant is allowed to go a 73 win team?
The NBA owned the Pelicans at the time the trade went down and as the owner had veto rights on the deal Demps put together.
On June 05 2017 17:30 BlackJack wrote: If LeBron could play 48 minutes non-stop and have unlimited energy then Cavs could have a shot. He looked gassed after attacking the rim non stop in the first quarter. He did not much in the 2nd half.
That is the issue with playing bully ball without post moves.
Cleveland took 87 bazillion shots last night. the fast pace of play made it exhausting for a ball carrier making a lay up to run back 90+ feet on defense 823787 times in the 1st half. its not an LBJ thing... it would happen to any player doing all that running back and forth.
Cleveland's solution to beating teams like Toronto and Boston when things get close is to speed things up. Cleveland is being defeated with its own weapon. and it looked like by sitting Thompson that Lue intended to speed things up last night. they threw everything but the kitchen sink at Golden State in the 1st half and still trailed by 3.
Cleveland needs to slow down the pace, they just can't keep up with GSW. If they don't then again they will run out of steam in the end of 3rd/beginning of 4th quarter.
It's so unfair how good a top player looks when he plays in a top team (a team that would still be great without him, I mean). Durant just looks unstoppable. On one hand I can't forget the "hardest road" comment, on the other hand I just have to acknowledge the performance. If they win 3 easy championships in a row with him as Finals MVP, I can easily see the controversy of his free agency fading away quite quickly.
Probably. Cavs need a main playmaker, Warriors need... uh... another scorer? Durant is better off-the-catch than Lebron too, he can play without the ball better within GSW. I still would have taken Warriors+Lebron over Cavs+Durant :D.
Durant is a better fit for the Warriors' spread-the-floor perimeter game than Lebron. Just look at all that Durant can do playing at the 5. It's unfair.
On June 07 2017 01:35 ZenithM wrote: Probably. Cavs need a main playmaker, Warriors need... uh... another scorer? Durant is better off-the-catch than Lebron too, he can play without the ball better within GSW. I still would have taken Warriors+Lebron over Cavs+Durant :D.
I agree. I think if they did the swap we wouldn't be talking about a 12-0 vs 12-1 matchup
On June 07 2017 02:27 zev318 wrote: i think lebrons game would fit well in any system because he's a good/willing passer. i dont think the warriors would be a worse team with lebron
I don't think I could disagree with this opinion more (aside from Lebron being great and a good/willing passer). IMO every one of his teams since the 2010 Cavs have under-performed for their talent level (one could argue the 2015 Cavs after Love/Kyrie went out are another example, but thats not a whole season). It is hard to describe my gut instinct on what Lebron is (compared to other elite players I've seen), but he is the least plug-and-play of them. Like, you put him with Wade & Bosh, and their production goes down (that's natural, it usually happens when you go to a better team), but in order for the team to actually work (2012), their production has to go way down, and fundamentally shift. The same is true for Kevin Love (who should be traded because Lebron should play the 4 from now on), and even Kyrie is seeing the effects.
IMO he has a high degree of anti-synergy with other good/great players. They become role players in the "Lebron Offense". I think it is because when Lebron is playing his best game, Kevin Love and Kyrie Irving (Or Klay, Steph, Draymond) add very little value compared to Channing Frye and J.R. Smith on the offensive side of the ball when LBJ has it. This, of course, makes his teambuilding choices very odd (he should focus on getting defensive players on his team). It is really weird (even with Lebron resting) that he has one 60+ win season in the last 7 (you would expect 5 or 6 given the preseason talent).
he has to play the way he does cause of the players he plays with. kyrie/love, wade/bosh are not good off the ball players, they are most effective with the ball, kyrie especially. imo he has never really played in a team oriented offense like the warriors do, but a huge part of that is because lebron is so good at being the focal point of an offense that no one has ever tried to play that way with him on a team. its always give the ball to lebron, let him do what he wants/does, cause its been proven to work so why try another way?
and even that heat team, because bosh/wade/lebron made so much, they could really only fill out the rest of the team with cheap veterans. the warriors did too of course, but the cap (58 to 94) went up, and there's also the fact that curry is only making 12mil. zaza and mcgee are being paid extremely low (even lower than the vets that the heat signed) and i think they have greatly outplayed their salaries. the warriors are just a deeper team and have more team oriented players imo. i just think if lebron did not have to carry as much of the offense as he has had to throughout the vast majority, if not all, of his career, and he would not have to if he played on the warriors today, he can def focus on the other things that he is great at and it would mesh just as well as durant right now if not better.
I agree with cLutZ's feeling. I wouldn't say Lebron makes his star teammates worse, but he does take the ball away from them a lot, and when they get it back, they're not really going to perform better just because Lebron stands on the court with them. And Lebron will always have to be the primary ball-handler because he's always much better as a playmaker than your other players.
My personal feeling is that Lebron won't mix well with any heavy ball-handler because he's just not that good of a shooter off-the-catch (or as you said, zev138, has never really been in a situation where that was asked of him). Sure, he can shoot really well in isolations, but he's never been the type of guy to come out of a screen, rise up and shoot. That's why you meet diminishing returns very soon if you pair him up with another guy who needs the ball as well.
The Warriors are unique in that all of their scorers are very dangerous off-the-ball as well, because they're good catch&shooters (to say the fucking least). It creates so many ways for them to attack a defense, because at any point, Durant, Curry and Draymond can handle while Durant, Curry or Klay can come out at the 3 pt line or cut. That's just easy offense right there.
The recipe for a Lebron team to beat the Warriors is "infinite stamina Lebron + three 3&D players + defensive center", not this "regular Lebron + 2 offensive stars + nobody else contributes" :D.
Edit: Got me curious about Lebron's % on catch&shoot. It's 56.7 EFG% on 1.9 FGA this year. Durant and Curry are at 63.8 EFG% on 4.7 FGA, and 67.8 EFG% on 5.1 FGA.
If Lebron is with the Warriors, he would be taking Draymond's spot as a playmaker and facilitator with a much, much better driving game. He wouldn't be taking the place of one of their shooters. Durant on the Cavs would be Thunder 2.0. He's not as efficient as Lebron is as the focal point of the entire offense. His floor vision and passing isn't as great. He's been a revelation inside the Warriors' free flowing, wide open read and react system though.
To be fair to Lebron, his co-superstars have been on-ball players for the most part. He's never had an off the ball player like Klay Thompson at the height of his career. The closest has been over the hill Ray Allen in Miami. Kyrie is actually a great spot up shooter but it lessens his game when he doesn't have the ball in his hands. Steph is a better off the ball player.
I think Lebron would pair up well with a player like Durant who can quickly make plays the moment he gets the ball, even if he doesn't end up shooting it. Instead, he ends up with players like Love whose post moves develop too slowly to take advantage of what Lebron brings to the table. Same with Wade's inside moves really. Lebron has never played with Warriors-style players who can do things quickly after they get the ball from Lebron.
Well, the debate was Warriors+Lebron or Warriors+KD. Obviously, "Warriors" doesn't include KD here, "Lebron + KD" is just not allowed, for basketball reasons :D. And Warriors + Lebron seems worse than Warriors + KD. You'd rather have an extra shooter than another playmaker. As you said, if you had Lebron, Draymond just wouldn't do anything.
You just went one tier beyond in our fantasy world with that Lebron and Durant combo there, andrewlt. (Edit: I'm kidding, I agree with your point about KD potentially meshing well with Lebron).
I still think Lebron not being a good catch&shooter is a good reason why you can't really pair him with ball dominant players. Like, I'm pretty sure Lebron + CP3 wouldn't be that impressive, even though CP3 would be great at finding Lebron (much better than Kyrie). I mean sure, Lebron is going to get one or two dunks here and there but what else?
It's worth saying that we wouldn't have this conversation if KD hadn't joined the Warriors. Last year, Warriors and Cavs were more evenly matched. But this Warriors team is so good that we end up talking about how Lebron, of all players, is too flawed to beat them with his current team... This Cavs team demolishes about anybody else in the league, maybe except the Spurs.
The Cavs roleplayers listed there, aside from TT (the great mystery of the finals so far), can only play when Lebron is on the court, and preferably without Kyrie and Love on the court. Functionally, it means the Cavs can't play their best lineups except the last 6 minutes and first 6 of the game.
The Cavs have too many offense first role players who provide redundant skill sets to Irving and Love. Agreed that they can only play with Lebron when Irving and Love are resting on the bench.
And to go back to the earlier conversation, switching Durant with Lebron on the Warriors would make much of Draymond's offensive skillset redundant but Lebron would work extremely well with Steph and Klay. Those two are the kind of players who would work really well with his skillset.
The thing is, in today's NBA great 3-PT shooters that play Great (Klay) or even above average (Steph, for a PG) defense work really well with everything. There is no team that is like, "oh no we have no room for another 3&D guy."
once Cleveland's role players enter this game i see the efficiency of their offense declining....again. with the possible exception of Richard Jefferson of course. and some nice defense by RJ on his 1st possession on defense.
The Cleveland bench is such a joke this series. Actually, the entire team is pretty much a joke. Unless Lebron James has the ball in his hands, the Cavs offense is just some guys dribbling around playing 1v1 until he misses the shot. At the rate things are going, unless Lebron plays all 48 min, I don't see the Cavs coming close to winning a single game.
On June 08 2017 11:40 cLutZ wrote: Missed the first. Recap?
First play I get to see is a Zaza-clown offensive foul followed by a Lebron pushoff (nocall) into foul on Dray.
Refs are shilling pretty hard for the Cavs. Lots of no calls.
It seems like also a lot of calls for the Cavs. Also, a lot of my most hated thing: Player A fouls player B causing him to travel/go out/commit a foul himself and player B (the Warriors have been B in this almost every time) gets called.
This is literally the most poorly officiated half of basketball I have ever seen. Its probably impossible to be worse. Adam Silver has clearly been informed he is fired if this doesnt go 7
Game over. Series over. The refs tried and there were a few moments of brilliance from the Cavs but they are clearly outmatched. Look for some big names to make big moves this off season.
On June 08 2017 12:48 Shellshock wrote: too bad Kawhi got hurt. Maybe he could have made it a series in the WCF? or maybe they just lose 4-1 instead
A soft 4-2 IMO. G1 they win by 10, the other game they win very close, blown out in all 4 losses.
On June 08 2017 12:56 zev318 wrote: tristan thompson 3 rebs in 23 minutes, kevin love 1-9, surprised it was that close
KLove was the master of the boards today. He was drawing loose ball fouls everywhere. This game was close because of the refs, plain and simple. In a well-officiated game this was the most lopsided game of all
I'm the biggest Lebon fan out there and I consider him at least top 3 of all time, but I'm worried how this game will affect Lebron;s legacy. Errors on crucial game winning possessions. Add that to being saved by Wade, Allen, and Irving going God-mode last year, I wonder how history will objectively judge him,
As a non-hardcore fan this is pretty boring. I mean, tonight was a good game but apparently the refs had to help Cleveland immensely, and they still lost, which pretty much tells that in a fair situation there's no way a team beats the Warriors. I guess people who understand Basketball better might be enamored with the high-level game Golden State is playing, but I believe that a team blowing the whole league out for 3 or 4 years is going to drive down viewer ratings and hurt the NBA in the long haul. I was cool with GS before, because while they were the best team, it was still within reach. Now it just feels hopeless.
Anyway, what do you guys think'll happen? Is some other team going acquire a bunch of players to match GS or will they simply dominate the NBA for the foreseeable future?
Paul George and Gordon Hayward to the Cavs might be the only way the Cavs give the Warriors a run for their money. Other than that, barring injuries and greed, the Warriors could possibly 4-peat.
On June 08 2017 13:23 Twinkle Toes wrote: I'm the biggest Lebon fan out there and I consider him at least top 3 of all time, but I'm worried how this game will affect Lebron;s legacy. Errors on crucial game winning possessions. Add that to being saved by Wade, Allen, and Irving going God-mode last year, I wonder how history will objectively judge him,
Cavs fans should be angry at how poorly coached that team looked in the final two minutes -- particularly on the final few meaningful possessions. The called plays looked bad and were executed even worse, and the clock management was Andy Reid-level bad.
It's the East that needs to get their shit together. The West has teams that can challenge GS. Celtics, Bulls, Cavs. That's it in the East. West has OKC, GSW, SA, Houston, and some day, Clippers. Possibly Kings. Until both sides are even and half the season is just for practice until playoffs, it'll be pretty boring.
On June 08 2017 13:23 Twinkle Toes wrote: I'm the biggest Lebon fan out there and I consider him at least top 3 of all time, but I'm worried how this game will affect Lebron;s legacy. Errors on crucial game winning possessions. Add that to being saved by Wade, Allen, and Irving going God-mode last year, I wonder how history will objectively judge him,
Cavs fans should be angry at how poorly coached that team looked in the final two minutes -- particularly on the final few meaningful possessions. The called plays looked bad and were executed even worse, and the clock management was Andy Reid-level bad.
Disagree. The Cavs had as good a lineup they could. They missed the really hard shots they had been making, and the Dubs stopped missing easy shots they had been missing.
On June 08 2017 13:23 dmnum wrote: Disclaimer: I like LeBron and the Cavs.
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As a non-hardcore fan this is pretty boring. I mean, tonight was a good game but apparently the refs had to help Cleveland immensely, and they still lost, which pretty much tells that in a fair situation there's no way a team beats the Warriors. I guess people who understand Basketball better might be enamored with the high-level game Golden State is playing, but I believe that a team blowing the whole league out for 3 or 4 years is going to drive down viewer ratings and hurt the NBA in the long haul. I was cool with GS before, because while they were the best team, it was still within reach. Now it just feels hopeless.
Anyway, what do you guys think'll happen? Is some other team going acquire a bunch of players to match GS or will they simply dominate the NBA for the foreseeable future?
You cannot blame GSW or even Durant though. It's a combination of wise management decisions and luck. GSW literally built this team from the junkyard, wise use of assets, thorough scouting reports, great draft picks, player development which grew to be a team-first-mentality great players who collectively make each other even better. Yes they are a superteam, but they are not the normal superteam of superstars bonding together in a team, but rather good players who develop into great players. Injuries to Thompson and Curry and salary cap management allowed them to acquire Iggy then, and KD now.
Now,. to KD bashers, here's the high and low of the situation. With the max situation in the NBA right now, it is inevitable for players to look for the best possible opportunities to win a championship within the confines of the rules. the economics of the game allowed GSW to have room for Durant, he took the opportunity to put himself in the best position to win the ring.
There are a lot of subnarratives: 1) Lebron superteam vs. Durant superteam method; 2) Lebron oppening the floodgates to superteams; 3) Durant's chances with OKC; 4) Durant and Westbrook and their chances in the always-stacked Western conference - but they are all a different topic all together. If Lebron, or any other superstar player had the same opportunity as KD, they would all have taken it 99/100.
On June 08 2017 13:23 Twinkle Toes wrote: I'm the biggest Lebon fan out there and I consider him at least top 3 of all time, but I'm worried how this game will affect Lebron;s legacy. Errors on crucial game winning possessions. Add that to being saved by Wade, Allen, and Irving going God-mode last year, I wonder how history will objectively judge him,
Cavs fans should be angry at how poorly coached that team looked in the final two minutes -- particularly on the final few meaningful possessions. The called plays looked bad and were executed even worse, and the clock management was Andy Reid-level bad.
Lue bragged about having 1000+ ATO plays, and now being down 3 points in the most important possession of his career, he sits down the best three-point shooter of the team. Can someone spell incompetence?
most entertaining game of the series. Cleveland's bench went 3-14. GSW's bench went 8-16. It sounds kinda ridiculous but you need bench players that can shoot 50%+.
On June 08 2017 14:26 Twinkle Toes wrote: Now,. to KD bashers, here's the high and low of the situation. With the max situation in the NBA right now, it is inevitable for players to look for the best possible opportunities to win a championship within the confines of the rules. the economics of the game allowed GSW to have room for Durant, he took the opportunity to put himself in the best position to win the ring.
this negativity will have little impact on KD's "legacy". Reggie Jackson is fondly remembered as one of the best clutch power hitters in the history of baseball. No one brings up that he was acquired by an rich owner on a historic spending spree.
These players are incredible. Of course at this point especially there's not much suspense in the final result but it's still been amazing to watch. I think the Cavs will rally for game four, maybe not enough to win but at least enough for another awesome game. I doubt any of them really believe in their hearts that they can win the series but you know they want to prevent the sweep and win a game in Cleveland.
Also I thought it was pretty cool when it sounded like some emotion came through when Durant said he'd been practicing that shot his whole life.
Cavs were +7 in Lebron's 46 minutes on the court and -12 in his 2 minutes on the bench. And this is the most expensive supporting cast in NBA history. The Cavs were only 1 of 3 teams to lose money last year because of how much salary they had to pay out. Can't blame GSW for spending money more wisely than other teams.
On June 09 2017 02:21 andrewlt wrote:And this is the most expensive supporting cast in NBA history. The Cavs were only 1 of 3 teams to lose money last year because of how much salary they had to pay out. Can't blame GSW for spending money more wisely than other teams.
over all , i agree with your point but you should pump the brakes on this "in NBA history" thing. salaries in the NBA go up all the time so in a few years, hell maybe even next year, some other group will be the "most expensive supporting cast in NBA history".
On June 08 2017 13:23 Twinkle Toes wrote: I'm the biggest Lebon fan out there and I consider him at least top 3 of all time, but I'm worried how this game will affect Lebron;s legacy. Errors on crucial game winning possessions. Add that to being saved by Wade, Allen, and Irving going God-mode last year, I wonder how history will objectively judge him,
If he gets swept there will be a lot less of these Jordan-Lebron GOAT debate attempts, that's for sure.
LBJ lost some "legacy points" for me the day he labelled himself a victim of evil word usage when Jackson labelled a group related to LBJ as a "posse".
On June 08 2017 13:23 Twinkle Toes wrote: I'm the biggest Lebon fan out there and I consider him at least top 3 of all time, but I'm worried how this game will affect Lebron;s legacy. Errors on crucial game winning possessions. Add that to being saved by Wade, Allen, and Irving going God-mode last year, I wonder how history will objectively judge him,
If he gets swept there will be a lot less of these Jordan-Lebron GOAT debate attempts, that's for sure.
There never should have been. Lebron is great, he is a physical beast. There has never been anyone that size that was that athletic. His problem is, was, and seemingly always will be is he is over-reliant on his physical gifts. Back in 2011 he infamously was guarded by JJ Barea and didn't back him down, etc. There has been a narrative that since then he developed a post game, I have never witnessed this post game in action during meaningful minutes. Instead, in this series when Curry or Ian Clark was switched onto him he said, "face up, driving to the lane" WTF is that? That's why he's tired, his only go-to move is the most tiring thing to do!
On June 09 2017 02:21 andrewlt wrote:And this is the most expensive supporting cast in NBA history. The Cavs were only 1 of 3 teams to lose money last year because of how much salary they had to pay out. Can't blame GSW for spending money more wisely than other teams.
over all , i agree with your point but you should pump the brakes on this "in NBA history" thing. salaries in the NBA go up all the time so in a few years, hell maybe even next year, some other group will be the "most expensive supporting cast in NBA history".
True, but today they are the most expensive. I would never underestimate the ability of the Knicks to make an even more expensive supporting cast supporting no one.
On June 08 2017 13:23 dmnum wrote: Disclaimer: I like LeBron and the Cavs.
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As a non-hardcore fan this is pretty boring. I mean, tonight was a good game but apparently the refs had to help Cleveland immensely, and they still lost, which pretty much tells that in a fair situation there's no way a team beats the Warriors. I guess people who understand Basketball better might be enamored with the high-level game Golden State is playing, but I believe that a team blowing the whole league out for 3 or 4 years is going to drive down viewer ratings and hurt the NBA in the long haul. I was cool with GS before, because while they were the best team, it was still within reach. Now it just feels hopeless.
Anyway, what do you guys think'll happen? Is some other team going acquire a bunch of players to match GS or will they simply dominate the NBA for the foreseeable future?
If Lebron, or any other superstar player had the same opportunity as KD, they would all have taken it 99/100.
You're out of your mind. There's just no way alpha-dog superstars would make a bitch move like this 99% of the time. There's a reason this is unprecedented and stunned the league/media. Joining the best regular season team ever, with the guy who took your MVP trophy, and choking against them just last season to lose a 3-1 lead.... Durant deserves the hate, and it should tarnish his legacy. This ring means far less than GS's first one, and Durant deserves even less credit when there's a good chance GS would've won this year even if he hadn't joined them.
I kinda feel sorry for GS fans in a way. They had a fantastic team, built through great management, coaching, drafting etc. but now they've taken Durant and their fans had to embrace him. Now they've become the bad guys and shattered league balance because Durant would rather a free ring than face competition/adversity.
On June 08 2017 13:23 dmnum wrote: Disclaimer: I like LeBron and the Cavs.
-
As a non-hardcore fan this is pretty boring. I mean, tonight was a good game but apparently the refs had to help Cleveland immensely, and they still lost, which pretty much tells that in a fair situation there's no way a team beats the Warriors. I guess people who understand Basketball better might be enamored with the high-level game Golden State is playing, but I believe that a team blowing the whole league out for 3 or 4 years is going to drive down viewer ratings and hurt the NBA in the long haul. I was cool with GS before, because while they were the best team, it was still within reach. Now it just feels hopeless.
Anyway, what do you guys think'll happen? Is some other team going acquire a bunch of players to match GS or will they simply dominate the NBA for the foreseeable future?
If Lebron, or any other superstar player had the same opportunity as KD, they would all have taken it 99/100.
You're out of your mind. There's just no way alpha-dog superstars would make a bitch move like this 99% of the time. There's a reason this is unprecedented.
happens all the time in baseball because there is no salary cap. used to happen in hockey until the salary cap arrived. the main impediment is the salary cap not player egos.
Btw, the ratings are the highest since 1998, when Michael Jordan was tearing through the league with Hall of Famers Pippen and Rodman and potentially a fourth one in Kukoc.
On June 08 2017 13:23 dmnum wrote: Disclaimer: I like LeBron and the Cavs.
-
As a non-hardcore fan this is pretty boring. I mean, tonight was a good game but apparently the refs had to help Cleveland immensely, and they still lost, which pretty much tells that in a fair situation there's no way a team beats the Warriors. I guess people who understand Basketball better might be enamored with the high-level game Golden State is playing, but I believe that a team blowing the whole league out for 3 or 4 years is going to drive down viewer ratings and hurt the NBA in the long haul. I was cool with GS before, because while they were the best team, it was still within reach. Now it just feels hopeless.
Anyway, what do you guys think'll happen? Is some other team going acquire a bunch of players to match GS or will they simply dominate the NBA for the foreseeable future?
If Lebron, or any other superstar player had the same opportunity as KD, they would all have taken it 99/100.
You're out of your mind. There's just no way alpha-dog superstars would make a bitch move like this 99% of the time. There's a reason this is unprecedented.
happens all the time in baseball because there is no salary cap. used to happen in hockey until the salary cap arrived. the main impediment is the salary cap not player egos.
Twinkletoes just said it was inevitable because of the salary cap... besides if you're being offered the same money by multiple franchises, then ego/self-respect does come in to it
"Green was already working on that as he left Oracle Arena after that gutting Game 7 loss. Green sat in his car in the parking lot and called Myers, telling him he had to sign Durant. "It's on you," Green told Myers.
On June 09 2017 09:50 Scarecrow wrote: You're out of your mind. There's just no way alpha-dog superstars would make a bitch move like this 99% of the time. There's a reason this is unprecedented and stunned the league/media.
As JimmyJRaynor said, it happens all the time in sports. There are minute differences but James opened the floodgates in 2010 when he buddied up with superstars Wade and Bosh to form a superteam in Miami. The difference in this scenario is that the superstars where already in one team and KD simply joined in. And stop the nonsense hyperbole, everyone keenly following the salary cap and FA situation saw this as a possibility. Lowe wrote extensively about it in 2014, well before GSW even became a certified superteam.
On June 09 2017 09:50 Scarecrow wrote: Joining the best regular season team ever, with the guy who took your MVP trophy, and choking against them just last season to lose a 3-1 lead....
A lot of people get hang up on this, so let me elaborate on this issue. People usually bring this up to soften Lebron's Miami move compared to KD. But IMO, when you consider all the factors. Lebron is the bigger bitch. He actively recruited established superstars from other teams to join forces in order to dominate the league "not once, not twice, etc." Im sure he imagined this kind of dominance from the Heatles then, but it didn't pan out. And what does he do next? Form another superteam! In the guise of pandering to the "Coming Home" narrative, he joins #1 Irving, and uses assets to assemble the team out of his own preference: KLove, TT, Shumpert, JR Smith, Korver. There are even recent reports of him maneuvering to replace David Griffin with Detroit GM.
And now that GSW are giving him a dose of his own medicine, fans are complaining about fairness and parity?
On June 09 2017 09:50 Scarecrow wrote: Durant deserves the hate, and it should tarnish his legacy. This ring means far less than GS's first one, and Durant deserves even less credit when there's a good chance GS would've won this year even if he hadn't joined them. I kinda feel sorry for GS fans in a way. They had a fantastic team, built through great management, coaching, drafting etc. but now they've taken Durant and their fans had to embrace him. Now they've become the bad guys and shattered league balance because Durant would rather a free ring than face competition/adversity.
This is unnecessary drama where there isn't. Even bordelrine hater-talk. NO ONE in GS is crying over the acquisition of Durant. This team was build from the ground up with good management and coaching. A series of lucky events led them to draft KD. Harden, DeRozan, Westbrook, AD, PG, Butler, all would have jumped at the opportunity if it was presented to them. This is no better or worse than Lebron forming his own superteam twice. Both got tired of losing. Both put themselves in an opportunity to win within the confines of the rules.
I'm a big Lebron fan and admire his achievements, but we cannot be irrational because of our fandom. What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. You cannot crucify KD and absolve Lebron for doing the same thing. And speaking of tarnish, no one who's been watching the finals can say KD came here to freeload or is unnecessary. There is no doubt that KD is the best player in this year's finals.
Great game, but I thought the it was really strange. I wonder how all of a sudden the cavs could get som many more rebounds (especially Love). Its as if they got twice as much energy from playing on home court. Another thing that really stood out for me was that GSW had much more difficulties guarding the high pick and roll. They got so many more switches than in the earlier games from what I saw (especially in the second half I think).
On June 08 2017 13:23 dmnum wrote: Disclaimer: I like LeBron and the Cavs.
-
As a non-hardcore fan this is pretty boring. I mean, tonight was a good game but apparently the refs had to help Cleveland immensely, and they still lost, which pretty much tells that in a fair situation there's no way a team beats the Warriors. I guess people who understand Basketball better might be enamored with the high-level game Golden State is playing, but I believe that a team blowing the whole league out for 3 or 4 years is going to drive down viewer ratings and hurt the NBA in the long haul. I was cool with GS before, because while they were the best team, it was still within reach. Now it just feels hopeless.
Anyway, what do you guys think'll happen? Is some other team going acquire a bunch of players to match GS or will they simply dominate the NBA for the foreseeable future?
If Lebron, or any other superstar player had the same opportunity as KD, they would all have taken it 99/100.
You're out of your mind. There's just no way alpha-dog superstars would make a bitch move like this 99% of the time. There's a reason this is unprecedented and stunned the league/media. Joining the best regular season team ever, with the guy who took your MVP trophy, and choking against them just last season to lose a 3-1 lead.... Durant deserves the hate, and it should tarnish his legacy. This ring means far less than GS's first one, and Durant deserves even less credit when there's a good chance GS would've won this year even if he hadn't joined them.
I kinda feel sorry for GS fans in a way. They had a fantastic team, built through great management, coaching, drafting etc. but now they've taken Durant and their fans had to embrace him. Now they've become the bad guys and shattered league balance because Durant would rather a free ring than face competition/adversity.
Youre a victime of media hype. Did you see last night? It was nothing free about it. Meanwhile Lebron completely manufactured a super team with Kyrie and Love. Those three guys are arguably top three in their respective positions in the world (Love has been on a decline since joining the cavs, but def was in that discussion before at least). GSW has at least made their superteam through really good drafting and player development which in turn made it possible for them to attract and sign a superstar free agent.
On June 09 2017 17:22 Elroi wrote: Great game, but I thought the it was really strange. I wonder how all of a sudden the cavs could get som many more rebounds (especially Love). Its as if they got twice as much energy from playing on home court. Another thing that really stood out for me was that GSW had much more difficulties guarding the high pick and roll. They got so many more switches than in the earlier games from what I saw (especially in the second half I think).
I have no definitive evidence as the only time I watched was live (watching it the second time would help), but I suppose refereeing helped. Ticky tack fouls where being called against Warriors in major plays, while Cavs where getting away with mauling Curry, Green, and Thompson. There were even two sequences where Livingston and Iggy were stretching out for a layup and there were obvious hands pulling them down, and no calls. I'm surprised the last play (Iggy swipe) didnt get a call to be honest.
On June 08 2017 13:23 dmnum wrote: Disclaimer: I like LeBron and the Cavs. As a non-hardcore fan this is pretty boring. I mean, tonight was a good game but apparently the refs had to help Cleveland immensely, and they still lost, which pretty much tells that in a fair situation there's no way a team beats the Warriors. I guess people who understand Basketball better might be enamored with the high-level game Golden State is playing, but I believe that a team blowing the whole league out for 3 or 4 years is going to drive down viewer ratings and hurt the NBA in the long haul. I was cool with GS before, because while they were the best team, it was still within reach. Now it just feels hopeless.
Anyway, what do you guys think'll happen? Is some other team going acquire a bunch of players to match GS or will they simply dominate the NBA for the foreseeable future?
If Lebron, or any other superstar player had the same opportunity as KD, they would all have taken it 99/100.
You're out of your mind. There's just no way alpha-dog superstars would make a bitch move like this 99% of the time. There's a reason this is unprecedented and stunned the league/media. Joining the best regular season team ever, with the guy who took your MVP trophy, and choking against them just last season to lose a 3-1 lead.... Durant deserves the hate, and it should tarnish his legacy. This ring means far less than GS's first one, and Durant deserves even less credit when there's a good chance GS would've won this year even if he hadn't joined them.
I kinda feel sorry for GS fans in a way. They had a fantastic team, built through great management, coaching, drafting etc. but now they've taken Durant and their fans had to embrace him. Now they've become the bad guys and shattered league balance because Durant would rather a free ring than face competition/adversity.
Youre a victime of media hype. Did you see last night? It was nothing free about it. Meanwhile Lebron completely manufactured a super team with Kyrie and Love. Those three guys are arguably top three in their respective positions in the world (Love has been on a decline since joining the cavs, but def was in that discussion before at least). GSW has at least made their superteam through really good drafting and player development which in turn made it possible for them to attract and sign a superstar free agent.
Finally, someone understands and sees beyond the hype and hypocrisy.
Coming into the series, 2 of the biggest questions for the Cavs (not including needing to play their A+ game to even have a chance) was 1. Would they be able to maintain a consistently good D and 2. Would they be able to get enough open looks and makes from the 3 against the #1 defense
I really don't see the Cavs coming back, not with KD on the team. That was the missing piece I think from last year. As was with last game, KD being on the team changes that teams entire dynamic and anyone off the bench is instantly contributing. Cavs, you are hesitant to bring in some players.
Why oh why, against a player who has everything to prove this season, has most nba fans against him, is a dead-eye shooter with killer instinct, would James give that much space in perhaps the most important play of the game. Very very poor decision by James.
Gotta be crazy to think 3-1 is more likely than 4-0 but I think there are some acceptable arguments for Cavs having a decent shot. It'll be interesting to see how focused and hardworking each team is in the 1st and 3rd quarters. If Cavs come in more focused and with some significant strategy adjustments, they could play a weird enough game to make sure GS never gets in rhythm. There's no way to guarantee GS doesn't score 20 points in 5 mins at some point though.
I think that the Warriors wrap it up tonight. They clearly want that 16-0 badly. They still haven't played their best game yet. And I think that there is a good chance that they broke the Cavs on Wednesday.
Well, Cavs aren't dead. But they certainly can't keep this pace up. I'm just glad that Kerr pulled Pachulia early. He was getting abused on defense. Let's see what the death lineup does.
The other story of this game is how goddamned useless the Warriors' big men have been. Pachulia and West have been atrocities on the court. The Cavs have been ruthlessly exploiting them.
Well I can guarantee you that there won't be any more techs called this game. This game must be frikkin awesome for casual fans though. The entertainment value is through the roof!
This game is going to the Cavs unfortunately. They caught fire in the first half and the Warriors sputtered out of the gate. I knew it wouldn't be 4-0. Too much money to lose if they did. But they won't lose at home, so 4-1 is the final score.
I feel that the Warriors aren't playing really physical for fear of pulling fouls left and right. A lot of those drives of Kyrie shouldn't be possible really.
It just takes an insane amount of 3's to beat the Warriors. Seriously though, how does Tristan Thompson never get offensive fouls for endless illegal screens and over the back fouls? It truly baffles me.
On June 10 2017 13:03 bdonballer wrote: It just takes an insane amount of 3's to beat the Warriors. Seriously though, how does Tristan Thompson never get offensive fouls for endless illegal screens and over the back fouls? It truly baffles me.
He is the king of over the back, and it scares me. In related news, he was serviceable for the first time and they won.
On June 10 2017 13:39 xDaunt wrote: No team was going to beat the Cavs tonight. Their shooting was too good, all other bullshit aside. I don't see them duplicating this.
well but game 3 was pretty brutal for the cavs.it was like having 5 bases vs 3 then the oponent attacked your main and killed your production.
On June 10 2017 13:39 xDaunt wrote: No team was going to beat the Cavs tonight. Their shooting was too good, all other bullshit aside. I don't see them duplicating this.
well but game 3 was pretty brutal for the cavs.it was like having 5 bases vs 3 then the oponent attacked your main and killed your production.
Gumiho won game 5 on 2 bases while his opponent had 4 bases and Tasteless had written Gumiho off. Cleveland needs to get Gumiho in there to come up with some strats.
Refereeing was off but the amount of 3's the Cavs drained was just insane. No one on the Warriors got hot, gg. I'm a little afraid the rest of the series will be anti-climactic, as the refereeing falls in line and the Cavs miss a few more shots, the Warriors will just kinda win one and that's that. Still I expect to see some more amazing individual performances.
how on earth do you even explain no call on this shit
I'm not gonna try to defend the numerous bizarre refereeing incidents that went down, but at least for this one there's some plausibility. The ref is watching and from his angle you might imagine that he thought it was a possibility Klay's swipe actually made contact with the ball. Like from his perspective, Klay swiped for the ball, his hand disappeared behind the ball so the ref can't actually see if contact is made, next thing you know Kyrie lost control. Ref signals that Klay touched it, so no call.
Then again, if refs were biased, then one way they'd act on it is by having all the calls with some uncertainty involved go the same way. So it doesn't really help to look at one call and say it's plausible.
The thing about saying, "Cleveland hit so many threes" (and granted I didn't see the first half), is that defense, fouls, and 3s are strongly related. There is a reason fewer people took lots of 3s in the 90s, and its because you could always be in the shooter's business for all 24 seconds with very little effort and low chance of getting called for a foul. If a team is getting cheap calls they are gonna hit more threes, and if you aren't getting calls you are going to "go cold".
On June 10 2017 12:44 Scarecrow wrote: The nba wants a game 5 in GS? or is it just bad?
How was draymond not given a flagrant for that mugging of TT?
Thompson came up after Livingston fouled him trying to draw the foul. Draymond was caught in the air. Not flagrant.
Had to wait to see it again, but the way he jumped in to TT and came down on his head was clearly a flagrant. But it was draymond, so they didn't call it.
the officiating has been fair but flawed. more flawed than usual due to the pace of the game and the quickness of the players ... and just so much going on at once. GS deserves to be up 3-1 and lo and behold.. its 3-1 for GS. the officials are not god and never have been. if we had 24 HD/4K cameras throughout an arena in 1980 i'll bet you the officiating would be either the same or worse.
It's really weird. The Warriors must be feeling annoyed right now, but they know they can't say shit because the refs are protecting Draymond, who looked like he could have gotten 3 or 4 techs that game. Pachulia is a chump. And holy cow, that should have been an automatic ejection on Lebron, getting up in the officials face like that.
On June 10 2017 12:44 Scarecrow wrote: The nba wants a game 5 in GS? or is it just bad?
How was draymond not given a flagrant for that mugging of TT?
Thompson came up after Livingston fouled him trying to draw the foul. Draymond was caught in the air. Not flagrant.
https://youtu.be/0ZfZuPt0iVM?t=9m50s Had to wait to see it again, but the way he jumped in to TT and came down on his head was clearly a flagrant. But it was draymond, so they didn't call it.
He jumped straight up, expecting TT to keep momentum. When TT stopped, Draymond was caught in the air. After Livingston fouled him, TT stayed on the ground and then drew the foul by trying to shoot. Draymond couldn't stop his momentum even if he tried. It was not flagrant. No matter your leaning in the games, Draymond didn't intend to jump on his back. Anyone could have done the exact same move, and not be called.
On June 12 2017 03:20 Jerubaal wrote: It's really weird. The Warriors must be feeling annoyed right now, but they know they can't say shit because the refs are protecting Draymond, who looked like he could have gotten 3 or 4 techs that game. Pachulia is a chump. And holy cow, that should have been an automatic ejection on Lebron, getting up in the officials face like that.
On June 10 2017 12:44 Scarecrow wrote: The nba wants a game 5 in GS? or is it just bad?
How was draymond not given a flagrant for that mugging of TT?
Thompson came up after Livingston fouled him trying to draw the foul. Draymond was caught in the air. Not flagrant.
https://youtu.be/0ZfZuPt0iVM?t=9m50s Had to wait to see it again, but the way he jumped in to TT and came down on his head was clearly a flagrant. But it was draymond, so they didn't call it.
He jumped straight up, expecting TT to keep momentum. When TT stopped, Draymond was caught in the air. After Livingston fouled him, TT stayed on the ground and then drew the foul by trying to shoot. Draymond couldn't stop his momentum even if he tried. It was not flagrant. No matter your leaning in the games, Draymond didn't intend to jump on his back. Anyone could have done the exact same move, and not be called.
Everything you said is true...except he put a little extra on the way down.
On June 12 2017 03:20 Jerubaal wrote: It's really weird. The Warriors must be feeling annoyed right now, but they know they can't say shit because the refs are protecting Draymond, who looked like he could have gotten 3 or 4 techs that game. Pachulia is a chump. And holy cow, that should have been an automatic ejection on Lebron, getting up in the officials face like that.
An automatic ejection, really?
From what it looked like to me, the ref was trying to separate some players and Lebron gets in his way while yelling. Idk, maybe they were having a nice cordial conversation.
As a teacher, if a student does the equivalent of what Lebron does, that's a "time to go nuclear" moment.
On June 10 2017 12:44 Scarecrow wrote: The nba wants a game 5 in GS? or is it just bad?
How was draymond not given a flagrant for that mugging of TT?
Thompson came up after Livingston fouled him trying to draw the foul. Draymond was caught in the air. Not flagrant.
https://youtu.be/0ZfZuPt0iVM?t=9m50s Had to wait to see it again, but the way he jumped in to TT and came down on his head was clearly a flagrant. But it was draymond, so they didn't call it.
He jumped straight up, expecting TT to keep momentum. When TT stopped, Draymond was caught in the air. After Livingston fouled him, TT stayed on the ground and then drew the foul by trying to shoot. Draymond couldn't stop his momentum even if he tried. It was not flagrant. No matter your leaning in the games, Draymond didn't intend to jump on his back. Anyone could have done the exact same move, and not be called.
Everything you said is true...except he put a little extra on the way down.
On June 12 2017 03:20 Jerubaal wrote: It's really weird. The Warriors must be feeling annoyed right now, but they know they can't say shit because the refs are protecting Draymond, who looked like he could have gotten 3 or 4 techs that game. Pachulia is a chump. And holy cow, that should have been an automatic ejection on Lebron, getting up in the officials face like that.
An automatic ejection, really?
From what it looked like to me, the ref was trying to separate some players and Lebron gets in his way while yelling. Idk, maybe they were having a nice cordial conversation.
As a teacher, if a student does the equivalent of what Lebron does, that's a "time to go nuclear" moment.
LeBron looked like he was upset that the ref was pulling on Shump while he was off balance, and maybe upset in general because that was a heated situation. I think it was good on the ref to not overreact to it and cause more shit, LeBron didn't shove him he just got him off Shump and said something.
I could see an argument he deserves a petty T for it, which would've been an ejection because he had 1 already, but in a vacuum there is no fucking way that play is a double tech.
Lebron is getting in the way of the official while he is dealing with an ongoing situation. Makes contact with him. Yells at him. Puts his hand out to ward him off. How is that not deserving? Ok, I'll moderate and say a tech- albeit an instant one. And a phone call from the commissioner. It seems like a very dangerous precedent to be setting. It seems like typical Lebron license to me.
On June 12 2017 07:29 cLutZ wrote: Honestly, that is an unhealthy way to think about Adult-Adult interactions (and interactions with any one over 11 TBH(.
What makes you think age has anything to do with it? The fact that so many things in the sporting world and in this forum remind me of child psychology should be telling that many people, from Carmelo to Brees, think with their pride more than their brains. You can be gently reminded or mildly punished for violating the rules of the game, but if you start messing with the rulemaker (i.e. the ref), then you need to be removed from the game.
See, I disagree. The worst situations I encounter are when the decision-maker is the same person as the "aggrieved party". This is in the Patent law world for me, and also previously as a reference/ump in 3 different sports (also previous to that interactions with teachers who, in my experience quarrel with the smartest students more often than the worst behaved students) makes me think that refs should not have the authority to call techs, which is the whole point of judges and appellate judges.
Well you'll have to expand a bit more on the patent law thing. Isn't the judge analogous to the referee? The equivalent would be if the judge had to call contempt of court. That sort of thing does not happen very often and it does not happen by accident.
I don't see the fact that the ref is aggrieved and also the decision maker as a problem when "aggrieving" the ref is the offence. The job of the ref is to run the game, just as it's the job of the teacher to run the classroom. If a player is interfering with that, there isn't really an excuse. Whatever the player thinks is so important at the moment is secondary to maintaining control of the game. We've seen what happens when that's lost.
Honestly, I think the ref was just surprised that Lebron came at him in such an aggressive manner. And maybe he thought a tech would have caused an even bigger blow up. Refs, however, don't see a player every game and they usually don't have the option of discussing it with the player "after class". He has no way of knowing if the League will follow up on it. He also knows that Lebron is the Golden One and they need to milk that +22% ratings.
You'd think the players would want these games to be well officiated. There are players on both teams who have shown they have no qualms about cheap shots.
On June 12 2017 14:07 Jerubaal wrote: Well you'll have to expand a bit more on the patent law thing. Isn't the judge analogous to the referee? The equivalent would be if the judge had to call contempt of court. That sort of thing does not happen very often and it does not happen by accident.
In patent law, for over 90% of what I do, I work against/with (kind of both at the same time) Patent Examiners at the USPTO. In this case, the Patent Examiner is the equivalent of the prosecutor, the judge, and the jury. This is why there is both an internal and external patent appeals system. In my experience, most of the time, all I need to do is to get a 2nd set of eyes on a problem where I have a dispute with the Examiner to win a case that is even mildly aggravating.
On June 12 2017 14:07 Jerubaal wrote: I don't see the fact that the ref is aggrieved and also the decision maker as a problem when "aggrieving" the ref is the offence. The job of the ref is to run the game, just as it's the job of the teacher to run the classroom. If a player is interfering with that, there isn't really an excuse. Whatever the player thinks is so important at the moment is secondary to maintaining control of the game. We've seen what happens when that's lost.
As someone who has been a ref, a patent examiner, and a patent prosecution attorney, I simply disagree with you. A ref is nothing like a judge, he is like the judge/prosecutor/jury hybrid I described earlier. It is incredibly easy to take offense of even minor things when someone is disputing what you do, even moreso in a quick decision as with techs. I, honestly, do not think any human is qualified to referee games. It is extremely hard just to get "the calls" right, its even harder to be dispassionate about when people say your calls are wrong. In an ideal system, IMO, a person would teach the class (and "run the classroom" as you say) and another would grade the students.
On June 12 2017 14:07 Jerubaal wrote: Honestly, I think the ref was just surprised that Lebron came at him in such an aggressive manner. And maybe he thought a tech would have caused an even bigger blow up. Refs, however, don't see a player every game and they usually don't have the option of discussing it with the player "after class". He has no way of knowing if the League will follow up on it. He also knows that Lebron is the Golden One and they need to milk that +22% ratings.
You'd think the players would want these games to be well officiated. There are players on both teams who have shown they have no qualms about cheap shots.
Just as the worst students prefer a system of arbitrary grading and bias towards "teachers pets", so too do the worst teachers prefer an arbitrary system where it is nearly impossible for them to be fired. In all non-objective systems the best people lose. The best people are always a minority, usually a significant minority.
Nobody is qualified to referee? Well, that may be true, but there are a lot of things nobody is qualified to do, but somebody has to do it. And, while you can't get rid of human nature, you can train yourself to do a much better job. The most important way is just experience. These refs have been insulted by a player on every team. At a certain point, you stop wasting emotional energy reacting to it. I hope you tasted a small bit of this as an umpire.
Of course the "child" is going to want a mess of an officiating system because they think that whenever it goes against their opponent it's justified and whenever it goes against them it's a travesty. It takes an adult to stop and think about what's best for everyone.
You also seem to have some points that don't seem to directly bear on the sport, so I'll let those be.
On June 12 2017 03:20 Jerubaal wrote: It's really weird. The Warriors must be feeling annoyed right now, but they know they can't say shit because the refs are protecting Draymond, who looked like he could have gotten 3 or 4 techs that game. Pachulia is a chump. And holy cow, that should have been an automatic ejection on Lebron, getting up in the officials face like that.
An automatic ejection, really?
I rewatched that Lebron moment, and unless I'm looking at the wrong scene, I honestly don't see how even a tech could be called. Sure, he touched the ref, but it didn't seem like aggressive contact at all, he just touches him on the arm, not even pushing. The ref is dragging Shumpert back from the action, which is why he's walking backward, and you see Lebron just talk to him at the same time and also dragging Shumpert back (which is the main thing Lebron is doing really). Lebron might have just been telling the ref to let him handle his teammate or something.
In general, in this kind of heated "melee" situations, refs are not going to hand out techs (let alone ejections) to any player doing incidental contact with them. Just the initiators, which Lebron is clearly not.
Edit: to be fair, I can't imagine what Lebron would have to do to warrant an ejection. He might be the most important person to keep on the floor for the NBA. I could see the refs giving him a tech for taking some rest :D.
The real question in my mind tonight is whether Kerr is finally going to make some adjustments and start small. I doubt that Cleveland will have anything resembling Game 4's performance, so he probably doesn't have to do anything. But the fact that Cleveland has been ruthlessly abusing Pachulia, McGee, and West should give him pause. He really should cut down on their minutes.
On June 12 2017 14:24 cLutZ wrote: he is like the judge/prosecutor/jury hybrid I described earlier. It is incredibly easy to take offense of even minor things when someone is disputing what you do, even moreso in a quick decision as with techs.
I, honestly, do not think any human is qualified to referee games.
meh, so we live in an imperfect world and we must socialize with other imperfect humans. For years the New Jersey Devils were the least penalized team in the NHL precisely because they rarely publicly/outwardly complained to the officials. if you outwardly complained to the referee and you were not the captain you lost substantial playing time. part of it was also they were a disciplined team that didn't partake in idiocy. But they also had the hardest hitter in the league. Lou Lamierello and t he New Jersey Devils knew how to manage the egos of the on ice officials and it greatly benefitted them.
work the system. as both a catcher and later an umpire i learned to play the game within a game. when i was hitting i never ever complained about a call because i wanted the umpire on my side for the 100 or so pitches when our pitcher was throwing. my 1 at bat was not worth as much as the 30+ ABs of our opponents. so i shut up.
managing the egos of the officials is part of your job as an on ice/court/field competitor.
I am not, as some people seem to think, complaining about innacuracy, or even refs being emotional. I just think its silly that in huge leagues like the NBA, NFL, NHL, etc that they don't have an extra "ref" who's job is resolving player-ref conflicts. He should not be part of the player or ref unions, and preferably not drawn from either.
there are 2 many guys out there now. i like the game as imperfect as it is right now. the Pittsburgh Penguins just won the Stanley Cup on a quick whistle disallowing a goal.... its part of the game.
did Franco Harris really catch that ball for the "immaculate reception" or did it bounce off the ground? meh... the Jorge Orta double play ball... i can go on and on...
these mistakes are all part of the game.
and the bitching and moaning about officiating by these fragile snowflakes is both maudlin and banal.
these clowns should try 1 week of living what jackie robinson lived through.. and he did it with his mouth abso-fucking-lutely shut. LBJ telling us he is the "new sheriff in town" and then gets "offended" when someone calls the people around him a "posse"....pppffft.. whatever man. i bet you the combined square footage of LBJs properties is more than 200X as big as whatever hovel Jackie Robinson lived in.
Warren Moon froze his fucking balls off playing in Edmonton in November for 5 years because no NFL team would give a black QB a shot. Michael Sam plays 1 game in warm Montreal and packs up and goes home and keeps on pointing fingers..... whatever man.
my message to the 20 or so fragile snowflakes who live in 50,000 square foot mansions and are playing tonight ...is this:
we live in an imperfect world. move forward and make it work. stop expecting "perfect authority figures" to always make the world right for you.
On June 12 2017 16:37 Jerubaal wrote: Nobody is qualified to referee? Well, that may be true, but there are a lot of things nobody is qualified to do, but somebody has to do it. And, while you can't get rid of human nature, you can train yourself to do a much better job. The most important way is just experience. These refs have been insulted by a player on every team. At a certain point, you stop wasting emotional energy reacting to it. I hope you tasted a small bit of this as an umpire.
Of course the "child" is going to want a mess of an officiating system because they think that whenever it goes against their opponent it's justified and whenever it goes against them it's a travesty. It takes an adult to stop and think about what's best for everyone.
You also seem to have some points that don't seem to directly bear on the sport, so I'll let those be.
I can kinda agree with Clutz's points that it is really difficult to deal with somebody who is their own appeals court. Pride almost always overrides rationality in these cases. You can train yourself to mitigate it but it's extremely difficult for people to admit they are wrong in the heat of the moment. The other issue is that NBA refs are empowered to call a lot of technical fouls. The other sport I watch is the NFL and referees there very rarely flag players for transgressions against officials. I almost never see it.
But refs only have control over one game. If there is a more serious punishment to be levied, it goes to the League office. (The teacher/principal comparison is more apt in that sense.)
You guys keep referencing how hard it is to admit you're wrong, but why is this even a question? There should not be a discussion of the correctness of the refs calls on the court. It's pointless. The ref is not going to change his call because you came up to him and informed him he is blind. Actually, if we follow your logic, the ref should call more fouls on the complainer and we often see that the opposite occurs. Homecourt advantage probably has much more effect on officiating than the refs ego. It's really not that hard to ignore minor amounts of attitude, considering you hear it every game. If a player is far exceeding that level of abuse, then that in itself, is a breach of the rules.
No, you don't see flags for official abuse in the NFL. Then again, players aren't running up to the refs after every play in football to yell at them. All things considered, I think the NFL is more strict. If a player starts yelling at a ref a few times, they will get a flag.
I think the system they have could work if the NBA would retroactively take away techs and suspend refs that give them out too much very often, but they don't. In fact, they give out stupid fines when someone accurately points out a problem with the reffing. In that way, they are like the Principal that always sides with the teachers, then acts all confused when there are 80 parents beating down his door because somehow all his male honors students (and it always seems to be males) are all of the sudden getting C-'s in one new teacher's class that uses a subjective grading system.
On June 13 2017 07:31 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote: What's the predictions for tonight? Does GSW close it out? Or do the Cavs come back?
Warriors will close it out. Cavs caught lightning in a bottle in Game 4. That's not happening again. Even if Kerr makes minimal adjustments, the Warriors are too good to lose like that again, and the Cavs simply aren't going to have another shooting performance like they did Game 4.
On June 13 2017 07:31 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote: What's the predictions for tonight? Does GSW close it out? Or do the Cavs come back?
Warriors will close it out. Cavs caught lightning in a bottle in Game 4. That's not happening again. Even if Kerr makes minimal adjustments, the Warriors are too good to lose like that again, and the Cavs simply aren't going to have another shooting performance like they did Game 4.
I'm hoping for the same. I'll know for sure what's going to happen by half or at the latest, middle of the 3rd.
On June 13 2017 07:03 cLutZ wrote: I think the system they have could work if the NBA would retroactively take away techs and suspend refs that give them out too much very often, but they don't. In fact, they give out stupid fines when someone accurately points out a problem with the reffing. In that way, they are like the Principal that always sides with the teachers, then acts all confused when there are 80 parents beating down his door because somehow all his male honors students (and it always seems to be males) are all of the sudden getting C-'s in one new teacher's class that uses a subjective grading system.
They do take away techs, but if it gets to ref abuse techs, you are not right, even if you think the ref was wrong. Has this really been a problem outside of the Crawford fucks? I think you are creating a problem that doesn't really exist. I think the refs do an ok job and there don't seem to be any easy answers on how to improve it. Refs reffing with their egos seems to be very far down the list. If anything, we need less gamesmanship on the part of the players and coaches. You mentioned fines for criticism of the officiating but most of the time they are full of shit.
That seems like a bad example for a comparison because grading disputes are usually much more cut and dry. Even "subjective" grading has standards. I like the discipline (or even arguing about a grade in class) comparison more because if you have reached that point, you are in no way in the right, no matter how strong you think your point is. I mean, we are talking about grown ass men and I hate the constant apologies for how we can't expect them to not act like whiny, spoiled children.
On June 13 2017 07:31 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote: What's the predictions for tonight? Does GSW close it out? Or do the Cavs come back?
Warriors will close it out. Cavs caught lightning in a bottle in Game 4. That's not happening again. Even if Kerr makes minimal adjustments, the Warriors are too good to lose like that again, and the Cavs simply aren't going to have another shooting performance like they did Game 4.
Even as a Cavs fan I agree, but that said I think people are acting like Cleveland won by the skin of their teeth because a 15 point lead against the Warriors doesn't feel like(and often isn't) enough, but they did win by 21, so you can take away 7 of those 3's and it's a tie game.
Cavs don't need to shoot 50% to be in the game, game 3 was super tight and they shot sub-30 with the Warriors shooting well themselves.
I think Golden State has the advantage but people keep on underestimating the Cavs' offense. They can catch fire for four games. Game 3 was really close and both games 1 and 2 required the Dubs to pull away in the third quarter. This series is hard to predict because both teams can catch fire and destroy game plans.
That said, Golden State hasn't had a terrible game on offense but it hasn't caught fire either.
I guess you could say he was diving at the ball but Zaza looked like he was legit just diving at Kyries legs right there because he had another 5+ feet to get to the ball itself.
Durant demanding a flagrant foul call because he got hit in the head on a shot attempt game 4 is made ridiculous by how often LeBron gets hit in the head. I guess Durant just got away with a flagrant which would have been his 3rd foul.
On June 13 2017 10:54 BlackJack wrote: Durant demanding a flagrant foul call because he got hit in the head on a shot attempt game 4 is made ridiculous by how often LeBron gets hit in the head. I guess Durant just got away with a flagrant which would have been his 3rd foul.
Warriors are shooting god awful but only down 2 because the reffing this game has been swung the other direction(it wasn't as bad as made out to be by stans in Game 4, and it's in their favor but not that bad this game).
Expecting them to pull away in the 3rd, saddens me as a Cavs fan.
Worst officiated game of the series and that's saying something.
Edit: I still highly doubt it happens, and I am OBVIOUSLY biased as a Cavs fan. But I have never hoped for LeBron to just absolutely beast a team more than right now.
KD acting tough with his chest out while he should be on the bench with 3 fouls and a flagrant(if we're going by game4 rules, contact to the head no matter what, add Dray to that list while we're at it since he once again played defense by jumping over TT on a play under the basket). Curry gets force fed FTAs until he can find his rhythm from the field.
What do the Warriors have? Some complaints that the game is 'getting called too tight!!!!" That's what they were literally begging for on Friday. Get the fuck out.
Not to be rude, but the announcers are blowing this. The "escalator" JR Smith shoving West into TT. TT shouldn't have gotten the tech, should have been a simple double tech.
I think the reffing on this game is pretty good. It's just tight, which I actually prefer since it sucks seeing players hurt due to loose/scrappy games.
On June 13 2017 11:18 ghrur wrote: I think the reffing on this game is pretty good. It's just tight, which I actually prefer since it sucks seeing players hurt due to loose/scrappy games.
I actually agree the reffing is good tonight. I don't even think it's tight. Let's be honest, these two teams are playing incredibly physical. The refs could blow their whistle on every single trip down the court and not be wrong. They're not calling it tight, the teams are just committing a lot of fouls. There's even a lot of fouls that they aren't calling, especially on Curry. So if refs actually call all the fouls people are going to bitch about the refs ruining the games and putting players in foul trouble. If they don't call all the fouls then people are going to bitch about all the missed calls. Conclusion? People are going to bitch either way so you may as well just ignore their bitching. Refs are doing a great job at being consistent and setting a tone for the game that they are not going to allow the over physicality and that they aren't afraid to put people in foul trouble.
They only have 11 attempts, take away 1 of the 6 makes and it's pretty much exactly what you'd expect, not exactly a lot of room for variance on so few shots(11 threes in a half is so few, what an era of ball we're living in).
On June 13 2017 11:34 BlackJack wrote: Refs are doing a great job at being consistent and setting a tone for the game that they are not going to allow the over physicality and that they aren't afraid to put people in foul trouble.
Except KD, wouldn't want to send him to the bench with 3 on an obvious and 1.
That was caused by the problem of refs being slower than players and (again) not enough of them. Transition plays at the basket are always guesses by the refs. Most of the NBA refs would not pass the physical requirements that FIFA puts on refs, just as an example.
'Highlight' of Curry getting fouled shows sickest illegal screen ever setting up his drive.
Edit: That play where people jump over TT's head when he pumps under the basket can't just be a common foul. Dude is going to get seriously hurt which is the entire purpose of Flagrants to begin with.
Clarifying edit: I don't necessarily want the Warriors to get slapped with F's left and right I want them to stop doing it which they would the second one of them got one.
On June 13 2017 12:06 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote: Any time he gets the ball down low, he does the same move. EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. They have to contest the shot, it's what you do.
Then jump straight up, they jump over him every single time.
On June 13 2017 11:55 red_ wrote: 'Highlight' of Curry getting fouled shows sickest illegal screen ever setting up his drive.
Edit: That play where people jump over TT's head when he pumps under the basket can't just be a common foul. Dude is going to get seriously hurt which is the entire purpose of Flagrants to begin with.
Clarifying edit: I don't necessarily want the Warriors to get slapped with F's left and right I want them to stop doing it which they would the second one of them got one.
As other people have said, TT is moving under the jumpers, he's just as lucky that he's not being called for offensive fouls. Also, he does that on like half of his rebounds and never gets called.
On June 13 2017 12:45 cLutZ wrote: The Lebron Cultists will pretend that his statline is real. The reality is he had 3 assists and 10+ points at the end that were meaningless.
Eh, no one else was hitting shots. The law of averages finally caught up to Kyrie.
On June 13 2017 12:45 cLutZ wrote: The Lebron Cultists will pretend that his statline is real. The reality is he had 3 assists and 10+ points at the end that were meaningless.
And if he had just stopped playing people would've crucified him forever, there's no winning with LeBron haters.
He still had like 33-10-5 before 'garbage' time
Edit: I mean seriously read what you just posted again, dude accounted for at least 16 points by your count, but I guess that's a reason to criticize him, asshole out there still trying to win the game because teams have indeed lost 10 point leads with 2 minutes left.
29 pts before. I don't disagree with his greatness. Its just the people who give him credit for everything he does positive, while ignoring the other side that I don't like. That's why I call them "cultists"
LBJ played great the entire series. what i don't get are these people who dislike some aspect of his personality and then turn that into everything he does is evil.
Lebron balled out. Durant did it better. LeBron is the best of his generation, like Kobe was for his and MJ was for his. I feel that the competition (physicality) isn't there anymore.
On June 13 2017 12:52 cLutZ wrote: 29 pts before. I don't disagree with his greatness. Its just the people who give him credit for everything he does positive, while ignoring the other side that I don't like. That's why I call them "cultists"
You really think his last 12 points were all meaningless? I mean I'm sure the first of those 12 happened with at least 3 minutes left to get it within either 8 or 10 that's definitely still 'game on' time.
Like, you think you don't disagree with his greatness yet here you are being petty about 12 points and a few assists while facing the end of his season trying to defend a title. Especially when I guarantee you were on those past bandwagons in NBA threads from way back dissing him for not going down fighting in a series here or there, or how 'MJ would've been shooting til the buzzer refusing to lose' or some bullshit like that, but when he actually does it it's roast LeBron time.
Maybe you weren't, maybe you're being honest, but this is that ridiculous shit the anti-LeBron cultists bring all the time.
On June 13 2017 12:52 cLutZ wrote: 29 pts before. I don't disagree with his greatness. Its just the people who give him credit for everything he does positive, while ignoring the other side that I don't like. That's why I call them "cultists"
I guess they are no more fanatical than the people that witness 200+ minutes of some of the best basketball ever and a ridiculous Finals stat line and instead bring up a few minutes of garbage time that boosted LeBron's stats ever so slightly.
I mean, I haven't been watching the NBA for long(started the season LeBron won the 2nd title with the Heat) but this was by far the most boring one. And the worst part is that it's going to be the same thing again next year barring injuries or something like that.
I dont dislike Lebron, just his cult. I think that he was playing into Golden State's hands at the end with a lot of his scoring where they were saying, "we just wont give up 3 on this possession". Was it 8 pts or 12 points I'm not 100% sure, but I know tomorrow people with Blue Checkmarks on Twitter will be telling me about his 41 points and pretending he didn't play inefficient basketball in the 2nd half of this game. I'm a Lebron fan, my problem is with Lebron's media conglomerate.
On June 13 2017 13:04 cLutZ wrote: I dont dislike Lebron, just his cult. I think that he was playing into Golden State's hands at the end with a lot of his scoring where they were saying, "we just wont give up 3 on this possession". Was it 8 pts or 12 points I'm not 100% sure, but I know tomorrow people with Blue Checkmarks on Twitter will be telling me about his 41 points and pretending he didn't play inefficient basketball in the 2nd half of this game. I'm a Lebron fan, my problem is with Lebron's media conglomerate.
Inefficient basketball? What are you talking about?
Considering the Cavs played it pretty close in 3 of the games, I think the Spurs could definitely have gone to at least a game 6. Of course, they may not have gotten the Zebra Special.
On June 13 2017 13:04 cLutZ wrote: I dont dislike Lebron, just his cult. I think that he was playing into Golden State's hands at the end with a lot of his scoring where they were saying, "we just wont give up 3 on this possession". Was it 8 pts or 12 points I'm not 100% sure, but I know tomorrow people with Blue Checkmarks on Twitter will be telling me about his 41 points and pretending he didn't play inefficient basketball in the 2nd half of this game. I'm a Lebron fan, my problem is with Lebron's media conglomerate.
Inefficient basketball? What are you talking about?
11:29 Missed Layup 7:50 Turnaround Shot Missed 7:18 Drive, Made 6:43 3 Pt Missed (IMO this is the end of the game) 6:13 Dunk Made 5:32 Layup made 4:03 Turnover 3:38 Layup 2:30 Layup 1:55 Missed Shot 0:36 Layup
Overall he was 0/3 in the 2nd half on 3s and 1/4 on shots in the 4th where GSW's were concerned with defending as much as not giving up fouls.
On June 13 2017 12:29 cLutZ wrote: That wasn't a "botched switch" Stan. JR could never have defended Durant there, Lebron needs to take the inside track on both those possessions.
On June 13 2017 12:45 cLutZ wrote: The Lebron Cultists will pretend that his statline is real. The reality is he had 3 assists and 10+ points at the end that were meaningless.
Eh, no one else was hitting shots. The law of averages finally caught up to Kyrie.
Kyrie might be legit injured, which slowed him down late in the second quarter and in the entire second half.
Kevin Durant will be god-mode next year and may be the best in the league
hence... GSW will be unstoppable for at least a couple years (barring major adjustments from other teams)
LMA needs to go,
The Clippers need major overhaul. Rivers should let go of dual GM/Coach duty. Choose one, Doc.
Lebron is an all-time great, objectively top 5 of all time. But these finals, against teams of equal pedigree to Cavs, have shown that Lebron is only average-good on defense (he is great on chasedowns and help d's though) and he is really not clutch. He has the tendency to wilt under pressure. Without Irving, Lebron can't do it, and couldnt have done it last year.
The East really need to improve, otherwise they might as well just cancel the playoffs and make it auto-Finals for the Cavs as long as Lebron is there.
Good job Curry for avoiding stupid TOs and rushing threes like last year's finals, and instead playing a more disciplined mental game of passing, creating, and driving to the paint.
Kyrie is a scoring genius. Flawed, erratic, unrealiable at times, but he is a genius.
I disagree with your Clippers opinion. Doc Rivers should be fired from all positions. He is not a good coach or GM. He is just a good self-promoter. I am reminded of this tweet:
What an awful ad. That's like the mental state of anyone who uses the word "hater". Build up a bunch of strawmen so your ego gets a boost to knock them down.
On June 13 2017 13:04 cLutZ wrote: I dont dislike Lebron, just his cult. I think that he was playing into Golden State's hands at the end with a lot of his scoring where they were saying, "we just wont give up 3 on this possession". Was it 8 pts or 12 points I'm not 100% sure, but I know tomorrow people with Blue Checkmarks on Twitter will be telling me about his 41 points and pretending he didn't play inefficient basketball in the 2nd half of this game. I'm a Lebron fan, my problem is with Lebron's media conglomerate.
Inefficient basketball? What are you talking about?
11:29 Missed Layup 7:50 Turnaround Shot Missed 7:18 Drive, Made 6:43 3 Pt Missed (IMO this is the end of the game) 6:13 Dunk Made 5:32 Layup made 4:03 Turnover 3:38 Layup 2:30 Layup 1:55 Missed Shot 0:36 Layup
Overall he was 0/3 in the 2nd half on 3s and 1/4 on shots in the 4th where GSW's were concerned with defending as much as not giving up fouls.
Overall he is 20 pts on 10/15 shooting in the 2nd half. The fact that you're trying to preemptively call out LeBron fans for twisting the narrative while at the same time trying you're trying to twist the narrative by calling 10/15 "inefficient" is just perfect. Hate it to break it to you but everyone is inefficient when you're only counting their misses.
On June 13 2017 13:54 Twinkle Toes wrote: Lebron is an all-time great, objectively top 5 of all time. But these finals, against teams of equal pedigree to Cavs, have shown that Lebron is only average-good on defense (he is great on chasedowns and help d's though) and he is really not clutch. He has the tendency to wilt under pressure. Without Irving, Lebron can't do it, and couldnt have done it last year.
This shit is so tired. By every possible way people define clutch that I've seen referenced(super late game like last 10s/5s/1s; last 2 minutes of 'close' game, last 5 minutes of close game, etc) LeBron as at worst solidly above average, and at best one of the greatest ever. This narrative largely died in the first Spurs series(everyone loves to mention Ray's shot coming off a LeBron miss but ignore the 3 he hit the previous possession and all the other shit he did that whole 4th quarter, and then the following game 7).
The problem with Lebron's "clutch-ness" against Golden State is that he is playing 46 minutes in close games against a very fast paced team. He doesn't have a problem in the clutch against teams that play slower and don't force him to expend all that energy just keeping the game close. All that movement defending Golden State and all the movement necessary to score against their defense is going to tire people out, especially at the pace they play at.
He does have a case of the yips at the free throw line this season. Tim Duncan also had the same problem for a few years early in his career.
a bit of yap about Thompson's shooting this year ... it was indeed the worst playoff shooting performance of his career. his #s this year are such a small amount below his career average it doesn't add up to a hill of beans though. the guy played very well on offense and defense.
On June 13 2017 15:10 andrewlt wrote: The problem with Lebron's "clutch-ness" against Golden State is that he is playing 46 minutes in close games against a very fast paced team. He doesn't have a problem in the clutch against teams that play slower and don't force him to expend all that energy just keeping the game close. All that movement defending Golden State and all the movement necessary to score against their defense is going to tire people out, especially at the pace they play at.
He does have a case of the yips at the free throw line this season. Tim Duncan also had the same problem for a few years early in his career.
On June 13 2017 13:54 Twinkle Toes wrote: Lebron is an all-time great, objectively top 5 of all time. But these finals, against teams of equal pedigree to Cavs, have shown that Lebron is only average-good on defense (he is great on chasedowns and help d's though) and he is really not clutch. He has the tendency to wilt under pressure. Without Irving, Lebron can't do it, and couldnt have done it last year.
LeBron as at worst solidly above average, and at best one of the greatest ever.
As a help defender, yes he is great. But as a 1on1 defender, he is below average against his equals, when it matters. Sure he can bully IT, Wall, and even Curry. But Kawhi, KD, and Harden all shit on him as a primary defender. Even old man Kobe schooled him torn achilles and all. This is verifiable stat-supported fact that we can all look up. End even on motion-defense he gets lost at times. The 17-2 run happened with him on the court. The crucial momentum points were all errors he was directly involved in - 2 iggy dunks, switch on livingston, kd separation, and all of them gave GSW the slim glimmer of daylight they need to grab the championship once and for all.
On June 13 2017 14:57 red_ wrote: This narrative largely died in the first Spurs series(everyone loves to mention Ray's shot coming off a LeBron miss but ignore the 3 he hit the previous possession and all the other shit he did that whole 4th quarter, and then the following game 7).
You mean the time when Kyrie went god-mode when Lebron was ready to surrender the series. As a Lebron fan myself, I understand the reason why you say these things, but I tend to be more indifferent and detached when discussing James' greatness. There are great stuff about him, as well as not so great stuff. I cannot emphasize one while ignoring the other.
On June 13 2017 15:10 andrewlt wrote: The problem with Lebron's "clutch-ness" against Golden State is that he is playing 46 minutes in close games against a very fast paced team. He doesn't have a problem in the clutch against teams that play slower and don't force him to expend all that energy just keeping the game close. All that movement defending Golden State and all the movement necessary to score against their defense is going to tire people out, especially at the pace they play at.
He does have a case of the yips at the free throw line this season. Tim Duncan also had the same problem for a few years early in his career.
Yeah, thats a huge factor, I agree. JVG also mentioned again and again how Lebron seems to be too self-conscious about being a self-appointed playmaker that he often passes on crucial plays when he should take them. He has all game to be playmaker/scorer all he wants, but when the game is on the line, if he wants to be undisputed GOAT, he has to take the shot, especially since he can most of the times.
On June 13 2017 15:50 Twinkle Toes wrote: As a help defender, yes he is great. But as a 1on1 defender, he is below average against his equals, when it matters. Sure he can bully IT, Wall, and even Curry. But Kawhi, KD, and Harden all shit on him as a primary defender. Even old man Kobe schooled him torn achilles and all. This is verifiable stat-supported fact that we can all look up. End even on motion-defense he gets lost at times. The 17-2 run happened with him on the court. The crucial momentum points were all errors he was directly involved in - 2 iggy dunks, switch on livingston, kd separation, and all of them gave GSW the slim glimmer of daylight they need to grab the championship once and for all.
outside of last year, for the past 10 years the East has been worse than the West by a wide margin. Thus, its difficult to assess just how truly meaningful LBJ's total domination of the first 3 rounds of the playoffs are.
that said, when you use stuff like adjusted plus/minus which takes into account strength of opposition... Adjusted Plus/Minus stats excel in situations where you have giant amounts of data... LBJ has been one of the top 3 players in the NBA for many years and sometimes #1. When he is #1 he is slightly better than the #2 guy. He has never thoroughly dominated the entire league the way he has sometimes dominated the 1st 3 rounds of the eastern playoffs.
The kind of antiseptic analysis i'm providing often gets shouted down by both the LBJ-haters and the LBJ-cultists ( new term i learned on here). IMO, based on the Eye-Test plus all encompassing stats like Adjusted Plus Minus I'd say LBJ has been the best player in the world by a narrow margin.
Congrats to GSW and KD. And to all the people who said KD shouldn't try to win (ie he shouldn't have joined the Warriors) because he should take personal responsibility for the league's parity, I say one last time to you, what the fuck?
On June 13 2017 15:50 Twinkle Toes wrote: As a help defender, yes he is great. But as a 1on1 defender, he is below average against his equals, when it matters. Sure he can bully IT, Wall, and even Curry. But Kawhi, KD, and Harden all shit on him as a primary defender. Even old man Kobe schooled him torn achilles and all. This is verifiable stat-supported fact that we can all look up. End even on motion-defense he gets lost at times. The 17-2 run happened with him on the court. The crucial momentum points were all errors he was directly involved in - 2 iggy dunks, switch on livingston, kd separation, and all of them gave GSW the slim glimmer of daylight they need to grab the championship once and for all.
outside of last year, for the past 10 years the East has been worse than the West by a wide margin. Thus, its difficult to assess just how truly meaningful LBJ's total domination of the first 3 rounds of the playoffs are.
that said, when you use stuff like adjusted plus/minus which takes into account strength of opposition... Adjusted Plus/Minus stats excel in situations where you have giant amounts of data... LBJ has been one of the top 3 players in the NBA for many years and sometimes #1. When he is #1 he is slightly better than the #2 guy. He has never thoroughly dominated the entire league the way he has sometimes dominated the 1st 3 rounds of the eastern playoffs.
The kind of antiseptic analysis i'm providing often gets shouted down by both the LBJ-haters and the LBJ-cultists ( new term i learned on here). IMO, based on the Eye-Test plus all encompassing stats like Adjusted Plus Minus I'd say LBJ has been the best player in the world by a narrow margin.
I hear you. Plus/Minus however glosses over specific instances over general data average. Case in point, which is what Im driving at, there are at least three defensive possessions where Lebron makes glaring defensive mistakes - one is failing to challenge Iggy in a dunk when he was in every position to do so, second is a botched switch with JR on Livingston, and third is him ball watching and complaining to the refs after a turnover which leads to GSW transition point,something that you cannot afford to do against the warriors and definitely not in the most important game of the season. Even accounting for drtg and ortg, these individual but crucial moments are often lost since those hold the same weight as a harmless turnover first minute into the game. The formula/analytics are useful and powerful, but at this point it can still be improved to make them accurately and correctly determine value.
On June 13 2017 15:10 andrewlt wrote: The problem with Lebron's "clutch-ness" against Golden State is that he is playing 46 minutes in close games against a very fast paced team. He doesn't have a problem in the clutch against teams that play slower and don't force him to expend all that energy just keeping the game close. All that movement defending Golden State and all the movement necessary to score against their defense is going to tire people out, especially at the pace they play at.
He does have a case of the yips at the free throw line this season. Tim Duncan also had the same problem for a few years early in his career.
Yeah, thats a huge factor, I agree. JVG also mentioned again and again how Lebron seems to be too self-conscious about being a self-appointed playmaker that he often passes on crucial plays when he should take them. He has all game to be playmaker/scorer all he wants, but when the game is on the line, if he wants to be undisputed GOAT, he has to take the shot, especially since he can most of the times.
I don't really agree with JVG on that. One of the things that irritates me about the NBA is the tendency of even the best offensive teams to resort to hero ball in the 4th quarter instead of just running their base offense. It results in a predictable decline in offensive efficiency. If Lebron has a shot that comes from their offense, he should take it. I disagree with him forcing shots just because he is their best player.
On June 13 2017 15:10 andrewlt wrote: The problem with Lebron's "clutch-ness" against Golden State is that he is playing 46 minutes in close games against a very fast paced team. He doesn't have a problem in the clutch against teams that play slower and don't force him to expend all that energy just keeping the game close. All that movement defending Golden State and all the movement necessary to score against their defense is going to tire people out, especially at the pace they play at.
He does have a case of the yips at the free throw line this season. Tim Duncan also had the same problem for a few years early in his career.
Yeah, thats a huge factor, I agree. JVG also mentioned again and again how Lebron seems to be too self-conscious about being a self-appointed playmaker that he often passes on crucial plays when he should take them. He has all game to be playmaker/scorer all he wants, but when the game is on the line, if he wants to be undisputed GOAT, he has to take the shot, especially since he can most of the times.
I don't really agree with JVG on that. One of the things that irritates me about the NBA is the tendency of even the best offensive teams to resort to hero ball in the 4th quarter instead of just running their base offense. It results in a predictable decline in offensive efficiency. If Lebron has a shot that comes from their offense, he should take it. I disagree with him forcing shots just because he is their best player.
This is one of the reasons why I hate having Mark Jackson on broadcasts. His commentary on good Cavs offense is basically "Lebron needs to run himself into the ground driving the basket on every offensive possession."
On June 13 2017 22:32 NonY wrote: Congrats to GSW and KD. And to all the people who said KD shouldn't try to win (ie he shouldn't have joined the Warriors) because he should take personal responsibility for the league's parity, I say one last time to you, what the fuck?
You have a point, but this "I won so therefore my actions are justified and even glorified" is the lowest form of thought.
On June 13 2017 15:10 andrewlt wrote: The problem with Lebron's "clutch-ness" against Golden State is that he is playing 46 minutes in close games against a very fast paced team. He doesn't have a problem in the clutch against teams that play slower and don't force him to expend all that energy just keeping the game close. All that movement defending Golden State and all the movement necessary to score against their defense is going to tire people out, especially at the pace they play at.
He does have a case of the yips at the free throw line this season. Tim Duncan also had the same problem for a few years early in his career.
Yeah, thats a huge factor, I agree. JVG also mentioned again and again how Lebron seems to be too self-conscious about being a self-appointed playmaker that he often passes on crucial plays when he should take them. He has all game to be playmaker/scorer all he wants, but when the game is on the line, if he wants to be undisputed GOAT, he has to take the shot, especially since he can most of the times.
I don't really agree with JVG on that. One of the things that irritates me about the NBA is the tendency of even the best offensive teams to resort to hero ball in the 4th quarter instead of just running their base offense. It results in a predictable decline in offensive efficiency. If Lebron has a shot that comes from their offense, he should take it. I disagree with him forcing shots just because he is their best player.
This is one of the reasons why I hate having Mark Jackson on broadcasts. His commentary on good Cavs offense is basically "Lebron needs to run himself into the ground driving the basket on every offensive possession."
There's nothing more annoying as a fan than watching your team run the same play ineffectively over and over again.
On June 13 2017 22:32 NonY wrote: Congrats to GSW and KD. And to all the people who said KD shouldn't try to win (ie he shouldn't have joined the Warriors) because he should take personal responsibility for the league's parity, I say one last time to you, what the fuck?
I rarely see this "personal responsibility for league parity" come up with reasonable basketball fans, but I can certainly understand that joining this GSW team (best regular season team, whom you were btw on the verge of beating in the conference finals, up 3-1), is perceived as a very weak move. As a businessman it's a nice move, you get to win easily, your legacy will have ringz. As a competitor, meh. I'm sure some greats in the history of the NBA would rather have retired than join the team that just performed a crushing comeback on them at the highest of the competition. That's also my own mindset in my limited competitive experience. Maybe it's a wrong mindset, I dont' know. But it really goes to show that NBA players these days don't really see themselves as the "enemy" and just play basketball for a living, without consideration of "who's the best" and all that.
I think that during free agency, KD didn't even really consider the backlash and the legacy and even the wins. He just genuinely seemed to want to play this style of basketball and obviously enjoys it more. I still think it's more enjoyable because it's easier and the team has more talent, not because they "like to share the ball more" or some bullshit like this.
I think the Cavs, if they adopt the Warriors offense in spirit can be competitive next year. It will keep LeBron and Kyrie fresh.
Also, LeBron should probably sit the first 10-15 games of the season so Ty Lue actually has to figure out LeBron-free lineups. There is no reason for Kyrie and Love led lineups to stall so much on offense. The Cavs are like addicts, and they need to break the habit so they actually function as a team.
On June 13 2017 22:32 NonY wrote: Congrats to GSW and KD. And to all the people who said KD shouldn't try to win (ie he shouldn't have joined the Warriors) because he should take personal responsibility for the league's parity, I say one last time to you, what the fuck?
I rarely see this "personal responsibility for league parity" come up with reasonable basketball fans, but I can certainly understand that joining this GSW team (best regular season team, whom you were btw on the verge of beating in the conference finals, up 3-1), is perceived as a very weak move. As a businessman it's a nice move, you get to win easily, your legacy will have ringz. As a competitor, meh. I'm sure some greats in the history of the NBA would rather have retired than join the team that just performed a crushing comeback on them at the highest of the competition. That's also my own mindset in my limited competitive experience. Maybe it's a wrong mindset, I dont' know. But it really goes to show that NBA players these days don't really see themselves as the "enemy" and just play basketball for a living, without consideration of "who's the best" and all that.
I think that during free agency, KD didn't even really consider the backlash and the legacy and even the wins. He just genuinely seemed to want to play this style of basketball and obviously enjoys it more. I still think it's more enjoyable because it's easier and the team has more talent, not because they "like to share the ball more" or some bullshit like this.
If I was a multi-millionaire, I wouldn't want to spend the prime of my life living in Oklahoma City, either. Perhaps it's just me, but the past greats throwing stones at current players sound like one-dimensional human beings who are unable to move past basketball after retirement. It's just sad and pathetic. They sound like they have nothing going on in their life so they have to pop out and seek attention every playoff time by reminding the world of how great they were back in the day.
Both Steve Kerr and Greg Poppovich run their teams with a "there are bigger things in life than basketball" ethos. Some former players and fans don't want players to subscribe to that ethos but I can tell you that there are players who appreciate playing for coaches who think that way. Being near Silicon Valley was one of the reasons that Andre Iguodala joined the Warriors and he was instrumental in recruiting Durant. There was an article on ESPN that talked about how going around the Bay Area helped Durant deal with his injury back in March.
I don't think it's just the talent that makes Warriors basketball more fun. The style of play looks more fun. The entire atmosphere and the culture of the team looks more fun as well. Playing 82 games alongside Russell Westbrook feels like the sort of thing that is just emotionally draining.
A lot of the "fun playstyle" just stems from their players being better than the rest. You can afford the extra pass when the ball ends up in a shooter's hands. It's easy to find cuts when there is that much shooting around you. When 2 out of the 5 guys on the floor have to be doubled, it just makes it easier for everybody. The nice atmosphere kind of comes naturally with winning, especially winning this convincingly.
Backtracking from my excessive statement from earlier, I won't deny that all of their players do genuinely seem to like sharing the ball (really different from Westbrook indeed), it's rare that so many great players enjoy playing off-ball. But other teams in the NBA also play with that mindset, and their playstyle seems "less fun" because their players are worse and they win less.
Edit: I also agree that if Lebron wants to win another one, he's going to have to do it with a different set of teammates in some form or another. The main thing that he has going against him is that he's leaving his physical prime, albeit slowly, and I don't think his non-physical attributes can become much better at this point (although I'm really impressed with his shooting from distance). He couldn't win against these Warriors this year, he won't be able to next year either.
On June 14 2017 08:22 biology]major wrote: Lebron is still the best player on the planet, KD is second.
Still think Durant is. Lebron's stats is inflated because his players complement his skills. Cavs live and die by lebron so when cavs role players suck cavs fall apart. It's pretty easy to rack up assists and points when you're extremely ball dominant and plays half ass defense as well. Not to mention that he plays in an ideal system perfectly suited for his play
Oh, you don't think it is some magical coincidence that we had the first Triple Double averaged in a regular season and in the Finals in the same year? How neanderthal of you. Rule changes and pace of play have nothing to do with it, nothing I say!
On June 14 2017 09:12 Jerubaal wrote: I feel like we're in a "Post-stats" era where you have to take a lot of stats, assists most of all, with heavy scrutiny.
On June 14 2017 09:12 Jerubaal wrote: I feel like we're in a "Post-stats" era where you have to take a lot of stats, assists most of all, with heavy scrutiny.
i think you need to look at different stats.
Or just look at that one XRAPM that you keep bringing up because it was literally the only metric that supported your argument.
and in terms of vanilla plus/minus james is near the top with no other team mates indicating he is a very very big part of cleveland's success. other players near the top in vanilla plus/minus also have team mates around them near the top. all LBJ has is Irving and Love at #23 and #25.
On June 14 2017 04:22 ZenithM wrote: But it really goes to show that NBA players these days don't really see themselves as the "enemy" and just play basketball for a living, without consideration of "who's the best" and all that.
BING-fucking-GO!!! This is the be-all-end-all summation of this era of basketball we have right now. It is difficult to really pass moral judgment as there are two sides to it.
It is bad because it undermines the competitive spirit of the game among players who want to prove who is the best and are nemesis on court, and would want to destroy each other every night. The last guards of that era are Kobe, Dirk, AI, and maybe even TMac. It is impossible to imagine them in their primes joining each other. It is even unimaginable for them to be exchanging pleasantries on court in the middle of the game. On the other hand, we have Lebron and later KD joining other superstars in their primes. Moreover, it was kind of off-putting to see James and KD smiling and talking heartily to each other in the middle of the West-Thompson smooching kerfuffle. I dont know how reliable JVG's lip reading is, but during the James-KD exchange in game 4, JVG reads Lebron saying to KD "Why you talking crazy KD. It's just a game." Jordan and Kobe would die before letting superstars from the other teams think that they are friends. An extreme version of this "friendly" NBA era is Dwight Howard, who smiles like a fool all game, down 20, up 5, right after flagrant fouls, before time outs, doesnt matter, Dwight loiters around the court grinning from ear to ear like a village fool. Maybe it's just old person talk for us who have seem the 90's era basketball.
On the other hand, I think this is also a welcome development of players taking control of their destinies away from team owners and the league in general. It's nothing more than a job. As someone else here said, the Kerr-Pop mentality that there are bigger things in life than basketball is a healthy approach.
Maybe players can strike a balance between the two paradigms. And maybe KD's and James' situations right now are birthing pains towards this balance?..
On June 14 2017 08:22 biology]major wrote: Lebron is still the best player on the planet, KD is second.
Still think Durant is. Lebron's stats is inflated because his players complement his skills. Cavs live and die by lebron so when cavs role players suck cavs fall apart. It's pretty easy to rack up assists and points when you're extremely ball dominant and plays half ass defense as well. Not to mention that he plays in an ideal system perfectly suited for his play
As a Lebron fan, this is what seriously irritates me about him. He is too conscious about his legacy that he often mistakes the appearance for the substance. Why lie about forming/being in superteams? That is an essential part of your legacy. Only because you lost to a monster of your own making does not mean you are not guilty of it. Lebron was the progenetor of this modern superteam, and practically handpicked the players who would surround him, demanding max for TT and JR when there were better options from a management perspective. But he gets a pass if only because it happened after a bitter finals loss.
Lebron's greatness is known to all. He is at worst top 5, and at best undeniably top 3. He should focus on the game, do his best, and his legacy will follow.
Also as a Lebron fan, I have to bitterly admit it, KD is the best player in the NBA right now.
On June 14 2017 10:14 Twinkle Toes wrote:Also as a Lebron fan, I have to bitterly admit it, KD is the best player in the NBA right now.
depends how big a time slice "right now" is. if its the past 12 months i'd say LBJ > Durant. if its the past 3 weeks its a long debate. Durant might have outplayed LBJ during the 5 final games of the season. maybe. its hard to say. any how, i think Durant will surpass LBJ next year as the best player.
I still think Lebron is better than Durant in the situation of "I'm building a team". I think Durant is much easier to incorporate into any team. Lebron, like I said earlier, needs to embrace ball movement and get away from the Dueling-Banjos style hero ball that he embraces in CLE and embraced in MIA.
I mean, "needs to" is strong. LBJ won a championship last year just doing his thing, against the best regular season record, It then took a pretty ridiculous team to stop him this year. As I said, maybe ball movement beat him, but a lot of it is just GSW having better players. I think Lebron will change his playstyle when he's not the best player on his team anymore. But who knows when that will happen.
The key element this series I think was that nobody on the Cavs is a great perimeter defender capable of making KD work for shots. KD ended the finals with like 69%TS... That's where I was most disappointed with LBJ, he seemed unable to both be the engine in offense and guard KD 1-on-1. A Kawhi-led team might now have more chance to beat the GSW.
On June 14 2017 16:20 ZenithM wrote: It then took a pretty ridiculous team to stop him
I shake my goddamn head. This is Lebron-stan level talk. It doesnt take anything special to stop Lebron. Its been done multiple times. 2011 Mavs (Ancient Dirk vs. not-1-not-2-not-3-HEat), 2010 Magic (vs. Dwight), 2007 SAS, and 2014 SAS (Old superteam of Duncan-Manu-Tony-upcoming Kawhi). Lebron is a legitimate GOAT candidate, but lets not pretend that he is perfect and only "pretty ridiculous teams" could beat him. Mavs, despite their immense lack of talent, smothered him switching between zone and iso traps, which lead to his worst performance, 2007 Spurs took advantage of his weak perimeter shot and played conservatively. 2014 Spurs simply played team-oriented basketball vs. Lebron superteam 2.0. MOreover, this talk is disrespectful to the Warriors. I mean, yeah, lets use the victory of GSW to celebrate Lebrons greatness. Come on.
On June 14 2017 16:20 ZenithM wrote: That's where I was most disappointed with LBJ, he seemed unable to both be the engine in offense and guard KD 1-on-1.
To add to this, other than the fact that indeed KD torch Lebron, having historical level efficient of a finals performance and Lebron was the primary defender, but there were plenty of missed switches or let back door cuts go behind them, and failing to cover on the regular basis, it was all Lebron and not the cavs "team" defense. Maybe Lebron 2010-12 would have done a better job...
KD's efficiency levels are aided by team mates who force spacing. back to cumulative vanilla +/- i linked earlier. KD was part of a "gang of 5" at the top. The players around LBJ were no where near as good as he was. KD was surrounded by players close to his ability.
Twinkle Toes, you missed my point. My point was that it's hard to argue that LBJ should change anything. He won last year against a great team, playing that kind of ball-dominant drive-and-kick style of his. Then this year he goes 12-1 in the playoffs until the finals, where he's defeated by a historically talented team.
Beside, wtf do we want Lebron to do better exactly? He was averaging 33.6 points, 12 rebounds, 10 asssists, 1 block, 1.4 steal on 56.4%FG. Say what you will, it's not that easy to get those stats, and it's hard to improve upon. It's just completely delusional to look at those Finals and say "Lebron has to change"... Imo the only thing he did not do well is guarding KD, and he will never get better at that anyway. Like I said, the day Lebron isn't the best playmaker and overall decision maker on his team, maybe he'll think about changing.
It's much more likely that the Cavs will be going for roster changes.
On June 14 2017 18:08 ZenithM wrote: Twinkle Toes, you missed my point. My point was that it's hard to argue that LBJ should change anything. He won last year against a great team, playing that kind of ball-dominant drive-and-kick style of his. Then this year he goes 12-1 in the playoffs until the finals, where he's defeated by a historically talented team.
Beside, wtf do we want Lebron to do better exactly? He was averaging 33.6 points, 12 rebounds, 10 asssists, 1 block, 1.4 steal on 56.4%FG. Say what you will, it's not that easy to get those stats, and it's hard to improve upon. It's just completely delusional to look at those Finals and say "Lebron has to change"... Imo the only thing he did not do well is guarding KD, and he will never get better at that anyway. Like I said, the day Lebron isn't the best playmaker and overall decision maker on his team, maybe he'll think about changing.
It's much more likely that the Cavs will be going for roster changes.
Point taken. Im just taking special exception with this narrative recently that it takes a historically great team to beat him, with strong undertones pertaining to the Warriors superteam. First, because Lebron himself paved the way for this brand of superteam where superstars at their peak band with each other. Second, it's not as if Lebron does not have a great team himself this year. this is a #1 #1 #1 team with parts handpicked by Lebron vs. a #7 #11 #35 team that was well managed and got very very lucky to get Durant. It just so happened that Lebron's team is not functioning as expected.
Having said that, the offseason acquisition of the Cavs will be the highlight of NBA fans this summer.
Another thing I find very unfair about this superteam narrative is that Cavs not only are themselves a superteam but they more or less only have to win one competitive series in the whole season to win the championship while the west has teams like SAS, Rockets and Clippers.
That would be a good argument if the Warriors had been seen struggling in the playoffs :D. Damn, what I would have given to see healthy Kawhi...
This superteam talk is just boring. Call the Cavs a superteam, a normal team, call the Warriors a hyperteam or I don't know what else, what difference does it make? It's obvious the Warriors were much better coming into the Finals. And people talking about "unfairness" are idiots. Everything happened within the rules. GSW developped their core All-NBA guys from the draft, and then signed KD because they could.
On June 14 2017 18:08 ZenithM wrote: Twinkle Toes, you missed my point. My point was that it's hard to argue that LBJ should change anything. He won last year against a great team, playing that kind of ball-dominant drive-and-kick style of his. Then this year he goes 12-1 in the playoffs until the finals, where he's defeated by a historically talented team.
Beside, wtf do we want Lebron to do better exactly? He was averaging 33.6 points, 12 rebounds, 10 asssists, 1 block, 1.4 steal on 56.4%FG. Say what you will, it's not that easy to get those stats, and it's hard to improve upon. It's just completely delusional to look at those Finals and say "Lebron has to change"... Imo the only thing he did not do well is guarding KD, and he will never get better at that anyway. Like I said, the day Lebron isn't the best playmaker and overall decision maker on his team, maybe he'll think about changing.
It's much more likely that the Cavs will be going for roster changes.
Imo, LeBron's stats will have to suffer for the team to improve ( also we need to remember this was a high-pace finals overall so everyone's stats are inflated), because the way he plays right now makes the team play in a way that makes him indispensable. This shouldn't be the case on a team with this much offensive talent.
I don't know about that. Nobody else in that lineup can both create his own shot and create for others. Nobody outside of Kyrie and Lebron can create his own shot (at least against GS). Kyrie just doesn't have good vision for a point guard, and plays more like a 6'3 SG. He can only play the P&R decently (but which PG can't...). There are some alright offensive weapons in the Cavs, but the offense for now can be summarized by "Lebron ISO + Lebron assist + Kyrie ISO".
I think the one weapon that's underutilized is Kevin Love. He seems like the guy who actually could play like Draymond passing from the post, I think KLove's skill as a passer extends beyond just break starters. But in the Cavs offense he's just a guy shooting in the corner.
he does need to change his game and the team, both has to change. he needs to post up much more to save energy, hes not getting any younger. changing the team is much harder, as i think maybe love is the only guy that they would be willing to trade and other teams may be interested in.
On June 15 2017 00:17 ZenithM wrote: I don't know about that. Nobody else in that lineup can both create his own shot and create for others. Nobody outside of Kyrie and Lebron can create his own shit (at least against GS). Kyrie just doesn't have good vision for a point guard, and plays more like a 6'3 SG. He can only play the P&R decently (but which PG can't...). There are some alright offensive weapons in the Cavs, but the offense for now can be summarized by "Lebron ISO + Lebron assist + Kyrie ISO".
I think the one weapon that's underutilized is Kevin Love. He seems like the guy who actually could play like Draymond passing from the post, I think KLove's skill as a passer extends beyond just break starters. But in the Cavs offense he's just a guy shooting in the corner.
That is part of my idea (Klove passing). The problem is that, alot like Bosh before him, his role has been greatly reduced in the "LeBron offense" and its not possible to just hit a switch and run a whole new offense when he's not on the floor. That is how a 45, 50 win team (Cavs without LeBron) can go 0-8 in games he doesn't play.
Good point. I don't get why Lebron has to play such high minutes during the season. What they should do is start him at 30 mins a game, or even less, and then the rest of the time let the guys do their Lebronless thing. Take the early losses that come with it. Then they bump his minutes progressively so that he can play 45+ if he wants during the playoffs. I don't really know shit about conditioning and all that so maybe that's not possible...
The most likely to happen is that Love simply gets traded for a 3&D guy. I really think Love is underrated, he seems like a really smart and skilled player. Just not very athletic.
If the Cavs are going to play this way, they should get more defensive guys rather than offensive guys to complement Lebron. It's pointless having all these offense first role players if Lebron and Kyrie are going to do most of the scoring anyway. There's a reason they managed to take GSW to 6 games in 2015 even with Kyrie and Love injured. That team played more defense.
You can't have Lebron carrying the offensive load and guarding KD at the same time. The Cavs were shooting better than GSW in game 5 and should've won if they could just guard all the backdoor cuts. But they had Lebron conserving energy on defense and nobody else on the team had the defensive chops to police all the backdoor cuts. I believe Iguodala was 7/7 on 2-pointers that game and it must've been on 6-7 dunks.
As much as I agree about this (hence why I think the Cavs will be looking for an anti-KD guy this summer), they still have an offensive problem when Lebron sits. They can't make a basket to save their life and give up easy transition points that they can't do anything about...
Thinking about the series, particularly the last few games, the Cavs sold out pretty hard on trying to shut down Curry with double teams and traps. Do you think think that the Cavs would have been better off giving Curry a little more space and putting more attention on Durant?
cleveland's defense was below average for months heading into the playoffs cleveland's defense continued to be crap as the playoffs rolled on its just that they played 2 teams ( toronto, boston ) that were at best ranged from slightly above average to somewhat above average ; both teams lost 2 important offensive cogs midway through each series. so Cleveland's defense was hardly "battle tested" going into the finals.
that cartesian plane thing with offensive and defensive efficiency on the x and y axis that i posted wasn't meant to be some big prediction thing.... but looking at it now... no one should've been shocked the finals was a scoring-fest.
i think the entire eastern conference is pretty much totally fucked for the next 2 years.
i think its better to be in the same division and conference as the best team. it forces your management, development and scouting staffs to raise their game or get fired. it forces your team and management to stare dead in the eyes of what is #1 far more frequently. this is even more the case when you are trying to draft and develop a team rather than buy one.
On June 15 2017 03:06 xDaunt wrote: Thinking about the series, particularly the last few games, the Cavs sold out pretty hard on trying to shut down Curry with double teams and traps. Do you think think that the Cavs would have been better off giving Curry a little more space and putting more attention on Durant?
I think that just makes the offense as a whole work for Golden State and you have even more free shots at the rim.
GSW's offensive numbers work better with Curry on the floor, even when he isn't shooting well. I get why Cleveland targeted him. On the other hand, good point guards are the most well suited to dribble and pass out of trap, based on the skill set required of point guards.
On June 14 2017 18:08 ZenithM wrote: Twinkle Toes, you missed my point. My point was that it's hard to argue that LBJ should change anything. He won last year against a great team, playing that kind of ball-dominant drive-and-kick style of his. Then this year he goes 12-1 in the playoffs until the finals, where he's defeated by a historically talented team.
Beside, wtf do we want Lebron to do better exactly? He was averaging 33.6 points, 12 rebounds, 10 asssists, 1 block, 1.4 steal on 56.4%FG. Say what you will, it's not that easy to get those stats, and it's hard to improve upon. It's just completely delusional to look at those Finals and say "Lebron has to change"... Imo the only thing he did not do well is guarding KD, and he will never get better at that anyway. Like I said, the day Lebron isn't the best playmaker and overall decision maker on his team, maybe he'll think about changing.
It's much more likely that the Cavs will be going for roster changes.
Point taken. Im just taking special exception with this narrative recently that it takes a historically great team to beat him, with strong undertones pertaining to the Warriors superteam. First, because Lebron himself paved the way for this brand of superteam where superstars at their peak band with each other. Second, it's not as if Lebron does not have a great team himself this year. this is a #1 #1 #1 team with parts handpicked by Lebron vs. a #7 #11 #35 team that was well managed and got very very lucky to get Durant. It just so happened that Lebron's team is not functioning as expected.
Having said that, the offseason acquisition of the Cavs will be the highlight of NBA fans this summer.
So 2010 Magic and 2011 Mavs(the real scar against him, even most LeBron fans agree unless they are super dug in stans), 2015 Warriors when LeBron was playing without his #2 and #3... every other team that's beaten him actually has been pretty historically great. Boston Big4, Spurs dynasty, 2017 Warriors with arguably the greatest roster ever.
You can't compare teams based on where their roster was drafted that is idiocy.
On June 14 2017 18:08 ZenithM wrote: Twinkle Toes, you missed my point. My point was that it's hard to argue that LBJ should change anything. He won last year against a great team, playing that kind of ball-dominant drive-and-kick style of his. Then this year he goes 12-1 in the playoffs until the finals, where he's defeated by a historically talented team.
Beside, wtf do we want Lebron to do better exactly? He was averaging 33.6 points, 12 rebounds, 10 asssists, 1 block, 1.4 steal on 56.4%FG. Say what you will, it's not that easy to get those stats, and it's hard to improve upon. It's just completely delusional to look at those Finals and say "Lebron has to change"... Imo the only thing he did not do well is guarding KD, and he will never get better at that anyway. Like I said, the day Lebron isn't the best playmaker and overall decision maker on his team, maybe he'll think about changing.
It's much more likely that the Cavs will be going for roster changes.
Point taken. Im just taking special exception with this narrative recently that it takes a historically great team to beat him, with strong undertones pertaining to the Warriors superteam. First, because Lebron himself paved the way for this brand of superteam where superstars at their peak band with each other. Second, it's not as if Lebron does not have a great team himself this year. this is a #1 #1 #1 team with parts handpicked by Lebron vs. a #7 #11 #35 team that was well managed and got very very lucky to get Durant. It just so happened that Lebron's team is not functioning as expected.
Having said that, the offseason acquisition of the Cavs will be the highlight of NBA fans this summer.
So 2010 Magic and 2011 Mavs(the real scar against him, even most LeBron fans agree unless they are super dug in stans), 2015 Warriors when LeBron was playing without his #2 and #3... every other team that's beaten him actually has been pretty historically great. Boston Big4, Spurs dynasty, 2017 Warriors with arguably the greatest roster ever.
Whooosh. In the context of our exchange, and the discourse on this topic in general, "pretty ridiculous teams" meant those stacked with superstars. The teams I mentioned defeating James were not. So my objection was that it does not take a super-stacked team to beat James. It's been done many times before by good old basketball strategy and teamwork.
On June 15 2017 06:55 red_ wrote: You can't compare teams based on where their roster was drafted that is idiocy.
In this case, this comparison is the only valid thing to do. I don't know if you're trolling or you do not understand the discussion at all. In good conscience, let me explain this in simple terms. When discussing which are superteams, it is important to identify which teams were created with clear talents already in place, and which ones needed development. Besides, how many #35 pick superstars can you name? Failing to understand this is the real idiocy.
On June 15 2017 11:11 Twinkle Toes wrote: WOJ BOMB (although Woj is a known Lebron hitman and unreliable regarding him): Lebron may play for Lakers of Clippers.
IF TRUE, SERIOUS WTF WOW!!!
Yeah, other outlets have been speculating about this for a while. I don't think that playing for the Clippers in two years will make sense. They're a team on the decline. The Lakers are a different matter. They could be a really good team in a couple of years if they add Lebron and some other high end veterans to their young core.
Send him to the Lakers. I'll probably root for him more. As with the NFL, I follow players, not teams. So I'm a Durant fan, a IT3 fan, etc. Lebron going to the Lakers to coach them up would be amazing and if they draft the kid from Kansas and not Ball, I'll be more inclined to watch.
On June 14 2017 18:08 ZenithM wrote: Twinkle Toes, you missed my point. My point was that it's hard to argue that LBJ should change anything. He won last year against a great team, playing that kind of ball-dominant drive-and-kick style of his. Then this year he goes 12-1 in the playoffs until the finals, where he's defeated by a historically talented team.
Beside, wtf do we want Lebron to do better exactly? He was averaging 33.6 points, 12 rebounds, 10 asssists, 1 block, 1.4 steal on 56.4%FG. Say what you will, it's not that easy to get those stats, and it's hard to improve upon. It's just completely delusional to look at those Finals and say "Lebron has to change"... Imo the only thing he did not do well is guarding KD, and he will never get better at that anyway. Like I said, the day Lebron isn't the best playmaker and overall decision maker on his team, maybe he'll think about changing.
It's much more likely that the Cavs will be going for roster changes.
Point taken. Im just taking special exception with this narrative recently that it takes a historically great team to beat him, with strong undertones pertaining to the Warriors superteam. First, because Lebron himself paved the way for this brand of superteam where superstars at their peak band with each other. Second, it's not as if Lebron does not have a great team himself this year. this is a #1 #1 #1 team with parts handpicked by Lebron vs. a #7 #11 #35 team that was well managed and got very very lucky to get Durant. It just so happened that Lebron's team is not functioning as expected.
Having said that, the offseason acquisition of the Cavs will be the highlight of NBA fans this summer.
So 2010 Magic and 2011 Mavs(the real scar against him, even most LeBron fans agree unless they are super dug in stans), 2015 Warriors when LeBron was playing without his #2 and #3... every other team that's beaten him actually has been pretty historically great. Boston Big4, Spurs dynasty, 2017 Warriors with arguably the greatest roster ever.
Whooosh. In the context of our exchange, and the discourse on this topic in general, "pretty ridiculous teams" meant those stacked with superstars. The teams I mentioned defeating James were not. So my objection was that it does not take a super-stacked team to beat James. It's been done many times before by good old basketball strategy and teamwork.
On June 15 2017 06:55 red_ wrote: You can't compare teams based on where their roster was drafted that is idiocy.
In this case, this comparison is the only valid thing to do. I don't know if you're trolling or you do not understand the discussion at all. In good conscience, let me explain this in simple terms. When discussing which are superteams, it is important to identify which teams were created with clear talents already in place, and which ones needed development. Besides, how many #35 pick superstars can you name? Failing to understand this is the real idiocy.
Boston Big4 had superstars, so that's out. Spurs had TD and TP(maybe on the fringe there, but he was better then for the Spurs than Klay is now for the Warriors, not as a shooter but overall for sure), Manu was an all-star as well. Kawhi in the 2014 finals.
That again leaves the Magic and the Mavs, as discussed.
As to your other point, you're the first person to begin throwing around 'superstars' here. The statement you initially responded to say 'it takes a pretty ridiculous team to beat him.' There's nothing inherent to 'pretty ridiculous team' that requires X number of 'superstars'(which is itself a subjective label). Draymond Green is one of the top20 players in the NBA and that's probably selling him short, his draft status as the #35 pick doesn't mean shit at this point because he has developed into an all-star, all-nba, DPOY player.
Indulging you anyways:
Deandre Jordan coincidentally was also exactly #35 pick, he's a multiple time all-nba player. Manu #57(Parker #28) Jimmy Butler was #30(a little ahead but not that much) Marc Gasol #47 IT4 last pick Gilbert Arenas #31
We can grab more all-stars/6th man type players and toss in here too, but those are some studs that came way after the lottery was finished.
On June 16 2017 07:08 red_ wrote: Boston Big4 had superstars, so that's out. Spurs had TD and TP(maybe on the fringe there, but he was better then for the Spurs than Klay is now for the Warriors, not as a shooter but overall for sure), Manu was an all-star as well. Kawhi in the 2014 finals.
That again leaves the Magic and the Mavs, as discussed.
Oh you sweet sweet summer child. The discussion was clear to everyone except you. Superteams in the context of the discussion are prime superstars from different teams deciding to join together in one team. This is why Lebron 's legacy was tarnished then when he joined the Heat in 2010.
There are teams with multiple all stars across the NBA, across eras, we have 90s Bulls, Kobe-Shaq Lakers, Kobe-Shaq Lakers + Payton + Malone, or even Late Kobe Lakers. Now, why are these team not considered superteams in the sense of Lebron Heat and Lebron Cavs superteam? Because these teams were not formed by 3 or more superstars joining together in a team. Lebron-Wade-Bosh + Allen + Battier + Lewis and Lebron + Kyrie + Love + Korver =/= great 1+2 duo Jordan/Pippen + Rodman + Kukoc, or Kobe/Shaq + Fox etc OR superstars late in their careers forming to get a chance to win a ring, e.g Kobe/Shaq/Malone/Payton OR Kobe/Gasol/Nash + Dwight, AND PP/KD/RA. No one in their right mind thought those teams would blow the rest of the league out of the water for years to come in the same way Lebrons superteams did and the present GSW team now does.
I literally blew coffee off my nose when you said the Spurs were a superteam.
On June 16 2017 07:08 red_ wrote: Indulging you anyways:
Deandre Jordan coincidentally was also exactly #35 pick, he's a multiple time all-nba player. Manu #57(Parker #28) Jimmy Butler was #30(a little ahead but not that much) Marc Gasol #47 IT4 last pick Gilbert Arenas #31
You are not indulging me. You are parading ignorance as knowledge. Now I know for sure you failed at understanding the discussion completely. Here, I'll give you the chance to learn for yourself - Now, name other teammates of these players who developed alongside them to form a good team (beside Spurs)
On June 16 2017 07:08 red_ wrote: Boston Big4 had superstars, so that's out. Spurs had TD and TP(maybe on the fringe there, but he was better then for the Spurs than Klay is now for the Warriors, not as a shooter but overall for sure), Manu was an all-star as well. Kawhi in the 2014 finals.
That again leaves the Magic and the Mavs, as discussed.
Oh you sweet sweet summer child. The discussion was clear to everyone except you. Superteams in the context of the discussion are prime superstars from different teams deciding to join together in one team. This is why Lebron 's legacy was tarnished then when he joined the Heat in 2010.
There are teams with multiple all stars across the NBA, across eras, we have 90s Bulls, Kobe-Shaq Lakers, Kobe-Shaq Lakers + Payton + Malone, or even Late Kobe Lakers. Now, why are these team not considered superteams in the sense of Lebron Heat and Lebron Cavs superteam? Because these teams were not formed by 3 or more superstars joining together in a team. Lebron-Wade-Bosh + Allen + Battier + Lewis and Lebron + Kyrie + Love + Korver =/= great 1+2 duo Jordan/Pippen + Rodman + Kukoc, or Kobe/Shaq + Fox etc OR superstars late in their careers forming to get a chance to win a ring, e.g Kobe/Shaq/Malone/Payton OR Kobe/Gasol/Nash + Dwight, AND PP/KD/RA. No one in their right mind thought those teams would blow the rest of the league out of the water for years to come in the same way Lebrons superteams did and the present GSW team now does.
I literally blew coffee off my nose when you said the Spurs were a superteam.
On June 16 2017 07:08 red_ wrote: Indulging you anyways:
Deandre Jordan coincidentally was also exactly #35 pick, he's a multiple time all-nba player. Manu #57(Parker #28) Jimmy Butler was #30(a little ahead but not that much) Marc Gasol #47 IT4 last pick Gilbert Arenas #31
You are not indulging me. You are parading ignorance as knowledge. Now I know for sure you failed at understanding the discussion completely. Here, I'll give you the chance to learn for yourself - Now, name other teammates of these players who developed alongside them to form a good team (beside Spurs)
You're literally making up 'the discussion' as we go along, go read your own posts(and the one you replied to initially). I'll be here if you want to discuss my actual post content instead of moving the goals.
I'm sorry, but the Spurs in 2013-14 were written off as dead going into the season. That Duncan is awesome, Kawhi got good, and the Spurs system makes old AF Parker & Ginobili look good even when they are dead doesn't magically change that for the next two years.
On June 16 2017 07:08 red_ wrote: Boston Big4 had superstars, so that's out. Spurs had TD and TP(maybe on the fringe there, but he was better then for the Spurs than Klay is now for the Warriors, not as a shooter but overall for sure), Manu was an all-star as well. Kawhi in the 2014 finals.
That again leaves the Magic and the Mavs, as discussed.
Oh you sweet sweet summer child. The discussion was clear to everyone except you. Superteams in the context of the discussion are prime superstars from different teams deciding to join together in one team. This is why Lebron 's legacy was tarnished then when he joined the Heat in 2010.
There are teams with multiple all stars across the NBA, across eras, we have 90s Bulls, Kobe-Shaq Lakers, Kobe-Shaq Lakers + Payton + Malone, or even Late Kobe Lakers. Now, why are these team not considered superteams in the sense of Lebron Heat and Lebron Cavs superteam? Because these teams were not formed by 3 or more superstars joining together in a team. Lebron-Wade-Bosh + Allen + Battier + Lewis and Lebron + Kyrie + Love + Korver =/= great 1+2 duo Jordan/Pippen + Rodman + Kukoc, or Kobe/Shaq + Fox etc OR superstars late in their careers forming to get a chance to win a ring, e.g Kobe/Shaq/Malone/Payton OR Kobe/Gasol/Nash + Dwight, AND PP/KD/RA. No one in their right mind thought those teams would blow the rest of the league out of the water for years to come in the same way Lebrons superteams did and the present GSW team now does.
I literally blew coffee off my nose when you said the Spurs were a superteam.
On June 16 2017 07:08 red_ wrote: Indulging you anyways:
Deandre Jordan coincidentally was also exactly #35 pick, he's a multiple time all-nba player. Manu #57(Parker #28) Jimmy Butler was #30(a little ahead but not that much) Marc Gasol #47 IT4 last pick Gilbert Arenas #31
You are not indulging me. You are parading ignorance as knowledge. Now I know for sure you failed at understanding the discussion completely. Here, I'll give you the chance to learn for yourself - Now, name other teammates of these players who developed alongside them to form a good team (beside Spurs)
You're literally making up 'the discussion' as we go along, go read your own posts(and the one you replied to initially). I'll be here if you want to discuss my actual post content instead of moving the goals.
Here's what happened:
1. Zenith brought up pretty ridiculous team to beat Lebron 2. In the context of the present discussion, and this specific "excuse" for Lebron losing again has been brought up millions of times this finals season, I retorted about superteams 3. Zenith clarified and elaborated 4. All is good and the miscommunication is resolved, notwithstanding the superteam issue 5. Peace and quiet in the land 6. And voila! Here you come barging in once again claiming Spurs et al were superteams. (to be honest, I dont know how old you are, but that is the funniest dumbest shit in the worst possible way that has been said in the history of basketball)
So, let us have a more focused and rigorous discussion.
Premise P1. Superteams - prime (3 or more) superstars joining together in a team intending to dominate the league for a long time P2. Duos are an NBA staple, (Wilt/Baylor, Bird/McHale, MJ/Pip, Kobe/Shaq) so they are not superteams. P3. Old superstars joining together are not superteams, since they happen only because old stars want to win a ring at the twilight of their carreers (see Kobe/Shaq/Malone/Payton and KG/RA/PP)
Conclusion C1. Lebron's 2017 Cavs is a superteam, as well as 2010 Heat (the first one arguably) C2. GSW + Durant is a superteam, with a few nuances, but a superteam nonetheless C3. It does not take a superteam to beat Lebron.
So, whats your argument? If you are working on a different premise or definition of superteam, then we have no discussion and we could just as well move on.
On June 16 2017 13:10 cLutZ wrote: I'm sorry, but the Spurs in 2013-14 were written off as dead going into the season. That Duncan is awesome, Kawhi got good, and the Spurs system makes old AF Parker & Ginobili look good even when they are dead doesn't magically change that for the next two years.
Very true. And I really literally spat coffee when he said they were a superteam. The Spurs success comes from decades-long discipline and team management. They were perennially good/great because of Duncan + Pop + knowing how to maximize their potential and always being one step ahead of the league. But no iteration of the Spurs has ever made people think "yeah, they will be champions for at least 3 or four years."
C1. Lebron's 2017 Cavs is a superteam, as well as 2010 Heat (the first one arguably) C2. GSW + Durant is a superteam, with a few nuances, but a superteam nonetheless
Which "nuances" are you talking about? Seems to me that GSW Durant Edition is the most glaring example you can think of. Two MVPs in their primes, a defensive superstar and the best two-way guard? If we're pushing it, they might literally have the #1 at each of the 1-to-4 positions. More realistically #1, #2, #2, #3. But you'll certainly find people saying that Klay is the best SG, that Durant is better than Lebron (some say it in this very thread), and that Draymond is the best PF (if you decide to shift AD to center for some reason).
C1. Lebron's 2017 Cavs is a superteam, as well as 2010 Heat (the first one arguably) C2. GSW + Durant is a superteam, with a few nuances, but a superteam nonetheless
Which "nuances" are you talking about? Seems to me that GSW Durant Edition is the most glaring example you can think of. Two MVPs in their primes, a defensive superstar and the best two-way guard? If we're pushing it, they might literally have the #1 at each of the 1-to-4 positions. More realistically #1, #2, #2, #3. But you'll certainly find people saying that Klay is the best SG, that Durant is better than Lebron (some say it in this very thread), and that Draymond is the best PF (if you decide to shift AD to center for some reason).
Nuances in the sense that they are homegrown superstars who were acquired in the draft and developed into the superstars that they are now. Good team management and key acquisitions of crucial supporting casts such as Iggy and Shaun built this teeam from the ground up.
This stands in direct contrast to the Lebron superteams.
C1. Lebron's 2017 Cavs is a superteam, as well as 2010 Heat (the first one arguably) C2. GSW + Durant is a superteam, with a few nuances, but a superteam nonetheless
Which "nuances" are you talking about? Seems to me that GSW Durant Edition is the most glaring example you can think of. Two MVPs in their primes, a defensive superstar and the best two-way guard? If we're pushing it, they might literally have the #1 at each of the 1-to-4 positions. More realistically #1, #2, #2, #3. But you'll certainly find people saying that Klay is the best SG, that Durant is better than Lebron (some say it in this very thread), and that Draymond is the best PF (if you decide to shift AD to center for some reason).
Players on teams with great teamwork get overrated as individual players (see GSW, Spurs). Klay has great defense, but his offense comes and goes so much that he'd struggle on most other teams. Draymond has great defense but a huge part of his game is calling defensive assignments and making plays for other people in offense, something that doesn't necessarily translate well to another team. They are low draft picks for stars with skill sets that are highly leveraged to GSW's style of play. Even Steph Curry's success is partly a product of Kerr's system. This was a middling playoff team with Mark Jackson, remember?
Food for thought, if the Cavs had the same level of teamwork as GSW, how close would the finals be? Who would actually be the better team?
C1. Lebron's 2017 Cavs is a superteam, as well as 2010 Heat (the first one arguably) C2. GSW + Durant is a superteam, with a few nuances, but a superteam nonetheless
Which "nuances" are you talking about? Seems to me that GSW Durant Edition is the most glaring example you can think of. Two MVPs in their primes, a defensive superstar and the best two-way guard? If we're pushing it, they might literally have the #1 at each of the 1-to-4 positions. More realistically #1, #2, #2, #3. But you'll certainly find people saying that Klay is the best SG, that Durant is better than Lebron (some say it in this very thread), and that Draymond is the best PF (if you decide to shift AD to center for some reason).
Players on teams with great teamwork get overrated as individual players (see GSW, Spurs). Klay has great defense, but his offense comes and goes so much that he'd struggle on most other teams. Draymond has great defense but a huge part of his game is calling defensive assignments and making plays for other people in offense, something that doesn't necessarily translate well to another team. They are low draft picks for stars with skill sets that are highly leveraged to GSW's style of play. Even Steph Curry's success is partly a product of Kerr's system. This was a middling playoff team with Mark Jackson, remember?
Food for thought, if the Cavs had the same level of teamwork as GSW, how close would the finals be? Who would actually be the better team?
People always miss this fact in their blind defense of Lebron's legacy. Im a Lebron fan, but the man has flaws. Way before joining the Heat, he has already consistently campaigned for superteams to be formed in the NBA.He might be right or wrong in that regard, it doesnt matter anyway. What is undeniable is his Heat team and Cavs homecoming team are unique and blatant cases of superteam formation.
Talking about plays, GSW and Cavs are teams with identical schemes but use the opposite strategy. The Cavs three point shooters are set up by Lebron's attack. The GSW on the other hand construct their points from the threats of the threes, which then allow motion offense to generate points from the inside. JVG mentioned at least twice, and Hubie Brown as well via radio, why Lebron is so reluctant in posting up and generate his assists from that position instead of dribble-penetration coming from beyond the arc.
The latter is all figured out by GSW. They'll single cover him all game and allow him to shoot three or even from the perimeter. And with KD facing him, these will not be easy shots. Him rolling and passing is not the best option against a switch-heavy team like GSW since they can easy cover assignments and minimize any weak spots. His interior point are not created off the dribble, which at this point in this career is really his weakest weapon already as most star-level players assigned against him can more or less manage not to be blown by. His interior points are rather created by baseline to hammer plays that he loves to run with Mo Williams as the confusion in the baseline creates wide open lanes for Lebron to cut in and receive the ball, or by high-post screens where he can take advantage of momentary lapses in switch defense and ram his way into the ring.
However, as Hubie repeatedly pointed out, if Lebron goes for the classic back-to basket low-post play, he could easily manhandle Iggy or even Green (as evident in parts of Games 3 and 4) and even KD offers no definite forceful opposition but is only problematic for Lebron because of his length. GSW then will be forced to double, and there, Lebron's playmaking could truly shine. Maybe the David West experience in the ECF a few years ago made Lebron realize that Barkley-style low-post moves are too physically demanding and might increase chances of injuries or might hasten the deterioration of his body.
Anyway, PG13 to Cavs seems likely, for a 1 year player option, and then what? Win or lose, both of them move to Lakers in 2019? That's be the day!
C1. Lebron's 2017 Cavs is a superteam, as well as 2010 Heat (the first one arguably) C2. GSW + Durant is a superteam, with a few nuances, but a superteam nonetheless
Which "nuances" are you talking about? Seems to me that GSW Durant Edition is the most glaring example you can think of. Two MVPs in their primes, a defensive superstar and the best two-way guard? If we're pushing it, they might literally have the #1 at each of the 1-to-4 positions. More realistically #1, #2, #2, #3. But you'll certainly find people saying that Klay is the best SG, that Durant is better than Lebron (some say it in this very thread), and that Draymond is the best PF (if you decide to shift AD to center for some reason).
Players on teams with great teamwork get overrated as individual players (see GSW, Spurs). Klay has great defense, but his offense comes and goes so much that he'd struggle on most other teams. Draymond has great defense but a huge part of his game is calling defensive assignments and making plays for other people in offense, something that doesn't necessarily translate well to another team. They are low draft picks for stars with skill sets that are highly leveraged to GSW's style of play. Even Steph Curry's success is partly a product of Kerr's system. This was a middling playoff team with Mark Jackson, remember?
Food for thought, if the Cavs had the same level of teamwork as GSW, how close would the finals be? Who would actually be the better team?
Come on now, Curry is dangerous from 30 feet and Durant is Durant. Klay scored 37 in one quarter, can single-handedly win games by making literally every shot he takes out of nowhere. I'm just saying that GSW is a superteam, end of story, no "nuances" to it. The reverse narrative that suddenly GS is actually not a superteam is just preposterous. We can all rave about teamwork, motion offense, gameplan and all that. You don't do what GS does with midtier players. A lot of it comes down to players actually making the shots, not just getting the looks.
C1. Lebron's 2017 Cavs is a superteam, as well as 2010 Heat (the first one arguably) C2. GSW + Durant is a superteam, with a few nuances, but a superteam nonetheless
Which "nuances" are you talking about? Seems to me that GSW Durant Edition is the most glaring example you can think of. Two MVPs in their primes, a defensive superstar and the best two-way guard? If we're pushing it, they might literally have the #1 at each of the 1-to-4 positions. More realistically #1, #2, #2, #3. But you'll certainly find people saying that Klay is the best SG, that Durant is better than Lebron (some say it in this very thread), and that Draymond is the best PF (if you decide to shift AD to center for some reason).
Players on teams with great teamwork get overrated as individual players (see GSW, Spurs). Klay has great defense, but his offense comes and goes so much that he'd struggle on most other teams. Draymond has great defense but a huge part of his game is calling defensive assignments and making plays for other people in offense, something that doesn't necessarily translate well to another team. They are low draft picks for stars with skill sets that are highly leveraged to GSW's style of play. Even Steph Curry's success is partly a product of Kerr's system. This was a middling playoff team with Mark Jackson, remember?
Food for thought, if the Cavs had the same level of teamwork as GSW, how close would the finals be? Who would actually be the better team?
Come on now, Curry is dangerous from 30 feet and Durant is Durant. Klay scored 37 in one quarter, can single-handedly win games by making literally every shot he takes out of nowhere. I'm just saying that GSW is a superteam, end of story, no "nuances" to it. The reverse narrative that suddenly GS is actually not a superteam is just preposterous. We can all rave about teamwork, motion offense, gameplan and all that. You don't do what GS does with midtier players. A lot of it comes down to players actually making the shots, not just getting the looks.
ye GS is a "super" team, but i think their argument is that gs was built organically besides the kd acquisition whereas boston/miami/clips* were all from players joining a team
C1. Lebron's 2017 Cavs is a superteam, as well as 2010 Heat (the first one arguably) C2. GSW + Durant is a superteam, with a few nuances, but a superteam nonetheless
Which "nuances" are you talking about? Seems to me that GSW Durant Edition is the most glaring example you can think of. Two MVPs in their primes, a defensive superstar and the best two-way guard? If we're pushing it, they might literally have the #1 at each of the 1-to-4 positions. More realistically #1, #2, #2, #3. But you'll certainly find people saying that Klay is the best SG, that Durant is better than Lebron (some say it in this very thread), and that Draymond is the best PF (if you decide to shift AD to center for some reason).
Players on teams with great teamwork get overrated as individual players (see GSW, Spurs). Klay has great defense, but his offense comes and goes so much that he'd struggle on most other teams. Draymond has great defense but a huge part of his game is calling defensive assignments and making plays for other people in offense, something that doesn't necessarily translate well to another team. They are low draft picks for stars with skill sets that are highly leveraged to GSW's style of play. Even Steph Curry's success is partly a product of Kerr's system. This was a middling playoff team with Mark Jackson, remember?
Food for thought, if the Cavs had the same level of teamwork as GSW, how close would the finals be? Who would actually be the better team?
Come on now, Curry is dangerous from 30 feet and Durant is Durant. Klay scored 37 in one quarter, can single-handedly win games by making literally every shot he takes out of nowhere. I'm just saying that GSW is a superteam, end of story, no "nuances" to it. The reverse narrative that suddenly GS is actually not a superteam is just preposterous. We can all rave about teamwork, motion offense, gameplan and all that. You don't do what GS does with midtier players. A lot of it comes down to players actually making the shots, not just getting the looks.
ye GS is a "super" team, but i think their argument is that gs was built organically besides the kd acquisition whereas boston/miami/clips* were all from players joining a team
I mean, you can craft whatever definition of superteam you need to fit only the teams you want and not the others, I get it. This "superteam" word is only used to diminish the achievements of the team, like they had some sort of cheat code or something. That's why players are coming out in strength in the media outright denying that they're playing for a superteam. It doesn't change the facts though. Warriors were huge favorites to win this series. And they will be the favorite to win next season, probably regardless of whatever crazy off-season moves happen.
C1. Lebron's 2017 Cavs is a superteam, as well as 2010 Heat (the first one arguably) C2. GSW + Durant is a superteam, with a few nuances, but a superteam nonetheless
Which "nuances" are you talking about? Seems to me that GSW Durant Edition is the most glaring example you can think of. Two MVPs in their primes, a defensive superstar and the best two-way guard? If we're pushing it, they might literally have the #1 at each of the 1-to-4 positions. More realistically #1, #2, #2, #3. But you'll certainly find people saying that Klay is the best SG, that Durant is better than Lebron (some say it in this very thread), and that Draymond is the best PF (if you decide to shift AD to center for some reason).
Players on teams with great teamwork get overrated as individual players (see GSW, Spurs). Klay has great defense, but his offense comes and goes so much that he'd struggle on most other teams. Draymond has great defense but a huge part of his game is calling defensive assignments and making plays for other people in offense, something that doesn't necessarily translate well to another team. They are low draft picks for stars with skill sets that are highly leveraged to GSW's style of play. Even Steph Curry's success is partly a product of Kerr's system. This was a middling playoff team with Mark Jackson, remember?
Food for thought, if the Cavs had the same level of teamwork as GSW, how close would the finals be? Who would actually be the better team?
Come on now, Curry is dangerous from 30 feet and Durant is Durant. Klay scored 37 in one quarter, can single-handedly win games by making literally every shot he takes out of nowhere. I'm just saying that GSW is a superteam, end of story, no "nuances" to it. The reverse narrative that suddenly GS is actually not a superteam is just preposterous. We can all rave about teamwork, motion offense, gameplan and all that. You don't do what GS does with midtier players. A lot of it comes down to players actually making the shots, not just getting the looks.
There is a huge difference between a superteam that forms from multiple superstars joining the same team versus a superteam that forms from a bunch of homegrown players getting better together. The second path is available to every single team in the league.
With the exception of Durant, GSW did do it with midtier players. They made their midtier players great. Every single team in the league has the potential to do that. Make your midtier players great. Plenty of players take a leap every year.
What I take exception is this narrative that it takes a historical joining of players on one team to beat Lebron. Two of the "superteams" that beat him (GSW, Spurs) did it with mostly homegrown stars. Teams developing their own drafted players is not some crazy freak occurrence.
2017 Warriors is a superteam. Lock it. 2015-2016, IMO not to much, those were good teams with a clear weakness (as old guys would say "jump shooting team", that also somehow had to play 2-3 bad shooters most of the time). This is why the 73 wins was a mirage, that team was built to win regular season games easily, and it became really hard tor them in the Playoffs. IMO OKC was a better playoff team then them.
2011 Mavs? No. 2013-14 Spurs? No. 2007 Spurs, yes, if you also consider 2015-17 Cavs and 2000-02 Lakers, because Tim Duncan in 2007 was better than Lebron today, and Parker/Ginobili as good as Love/Kyrie.
On June 17 2017 05:18 cLutZ wrote: This superteam thing is absurd.
2017 Warriors is a superteam. Lock it. 2015-2016, IMO not to much, those were good teams with a clear weakness (as old guys would say "jump shooting team", that also somehow had to play 2-3 bad shooters most of the time). This is why the 73 wins was a mirage, that team was built to win regular season games easily, and it became really hard tor them in the Playoffs. IMO OKC was a better playoff team then them.
2011 Mavs? No. 2013-14 Spurs? No. 2007 Spurs, yes, if you also consider 2015-17 Cavs and 2000-02 Lakers, because Tim Duncan in 2007 was better than Lebron today, and Parker/Ginobili as good as Love/Kyrie.
On June 17 2017 04:40 ZenithM wrote: That's why players are coming out in strength in the media outright denying that they're playing for a superteam. It doesn't change the facts though. Warriors were huge favorites to win this series. And they will be the favorite to win next season, probably regardless of whatever crazy off-season moves happen.
Only Lebron. Green's reaction was in sarcasm to Lebron. Im not aware of any others seriously chiming in on this issue. Could you name anyone else?
On June 17 2017 03:06 ZenithM wrote: Come on now, Curry is dangerous from 30 feet and Durant is Durant. Klay scored 37 in one quarter, can single-handedly win games by making literally every shot he takes out of nowhere. I'm just saying that GSW is a superteam, end of story, no "nuances" to it. The reverse narrative that suddenly GS is actually not a superteam is just preposterous. We can all rave about teamwork, motion offense, gameplan and all that. You don't do what GS does with midtier players. A lot of it comes down to players actually making the shots, not just getting the looks.
There are plenty other teams whose players have remarkable individual records but they do not necessarily translate into team excellence. And "getting the looks" has a lot to do with how the team as a unit is constructed,especially for midtier players. Put Livingston in the Lakers and I doubt he'll be as useful. Or Mills in the Knicks. This is what andrewlt was emphasizing when he talked about team/player development.
On June 17 2017 04:40 ZenithM wrote: I mean, you can craft whatever definition of superteam you need to fit only the teams you want and not the others, I get it. This "superteam" word is only used to diminish the achievements of the team, like they had some sort of cheat code or something... It doesn't change the facts though. Warriors were huge favorites to win this series. And they will be the favorite to win next season, probably regardless of whatever crazy off-season moves happen.
Only as a reaction by the fans/media/public in general to the intention of players forming superteams, specifically the Lebron type.
No one begrudged the second peat Bull with MJ/Pip/Kukoc/Rodman, nor Kobe/Shaq Lakers even though they were genuinely perceived as a team that could dominate for a decade after their first three-peat, nor 2007 Spurs.
The cheat code occurred because superstar who are in their primes and are perceived to be competitive AGAINST each other, join together with the intent of tilting the balance largely in their favor. This is not an arbitrary definition. The superteam is a created with the intention to "cheat" the natural order of the competitive spirit of the game (I have already wrote elsewhere regarding the moral and pragmatic dimension of this)
Which is why the 2015 is NOT a superteam. No one drafted Curry, Klay, and Green thinkiing "motherfucker we're gonna destroy the league with our jumpshooting team". Theirs, along with SAS, and hopefully eventually the Bucks and Rockets, are a product of the evolution of the league and not something forced to dominate the league from the get go - Lebron/Wade/Bosh explicitly said this so themselves (remember "not one, not two...")
Pertaining to GSW 2017, the team itself is blameless for acquiring Durant. They managed their team properly, and opportunity arouse to get the best FA signing, and they did.
Durant himself could be blamed ONLY IF you recognize that Lebron paved the way for it to happen. You cannot blame Durant for taking the "hardest road" while excusing Lebron when his moves have been way more blatant.
Like I get some of what you say, but to someone who follows this thread but never posts you just come across as a HUGE Lebron hater. Which is your prerogative ofc.
Fwiw I always thought lebron/wade/bosh was in some ways a response to the Boston thing and generally think of that as the first example of three good players intentionally joining up.
On June 16 2017 13:10 cLutZ wrote: I'm sorry, but the Spurs in 2013-14 were written off as dead going into the season. That Duncan is awesome, Kawhi got good, and the Spurs system makes old AF Parker & Ginobili look good even when they are dead doesn't magically change that for the next two years.
Written off as dead? They were picked first or second in the stacked west by pretty much everyone, and then Kawhi took 'the leap' and went from super quality player relative to what it took to get him from Indiana, to outright star. Plus, who the fuck cares what a team was picked to do preseason? I care how they actually perform after 82+playoffs, and that Spurs team was really fucking good.
I wouldn't call them a 'superteam' the way you guys are defining it but they weren't some sorry ass squad, and they weren't anywhere near as surprising a champ as the Mavs.
Also after all of this followup I still have no idea why Twinkle was trying to invoke draft pick positions for players like it means GSW isn't disgustingly talented. Player development is a thing, and GSW appears to be good at it(or players outperform their draft position, it happens, Green would be the only one to be doing so at an insane margin and he simultaneously appears to be the most role-player-esque of the group, shocker). Mass credit to their organization but it doesn't mean they aren't still a stacked team even if they home grew that shit.
Draw parallels to other sports if you want. Yankees of that late 90s/early 2000s run was a ton of home grown talent, doesn't mean they weren't talented because they developed them in their own farm system instead of signing monster FA's. Tom Brady is the fucking GOAT for crying out loud, him being a 7th round draft pick is a trivia answer and fun quirk of history about how talent scouting is clearly not perfect, it doesn't mean he isn't a beast.
On June 16 2017 13:10 cLutZ wrote: I'm sorry, but the Spurs in 2013-14 were written off as dead going into the season. That Duncan is awesome, Kawhi got good, and the Spurs system makes old AF Parker & Ginobili look good even when they are dead doesn't magically change that for the next two years.
Written off as dead? They were picked first or second in the stacked west by pretty much everyone, and then Kawhi took 'the leap' and went from super quality player relative to what it took to get him from Indiana, to outright star. Plus, who the fuck cares what a team was picked to do preseason? I care how they actually perform after 82+playoffs, and that Spurs team was really fucking good.
I wouldn't call them a 'superteam' the way you guys are defining it but they weren't some sorry ass squad, and they weren't anywhere near as surprising a champ as the Mavs.
Also after all of this followup I still have no idea why Twinkle was trying to invoke draft pick positions for players like it means GSW isn't disgustingly talented. Player development is a thing, and GSW appears to be good at it(or players outperform their draft position, it happens, Green would be the only one to be doing so at an insane margin and he simultaneously appears to be the most role-player-esque of the group, shocker). Mass credit to their organization but it doesn't mean they aren't still a stacked team even if they home grew that shit.
Draw parallels to other sports if you want. Yankees of that late 90s/early 2000s run was a ton of home grown talent, doesn't mean they weren't talented because they developed them in their own farm system instead of signing monster FA's. Tom Brady is the fucking GOAT for crying out loud, him being a 7th round draft pick is a trivia answer and fun quirk of history about how talent scouting is clearly not perfect, it doesn't mean he isn't a beast.
TIL, 3rd in the West, 5th overall. People best remembered them getting reverse swept after being 2-0 on the Thunder.
On June 17 2017 07:40 Atreides wrote: Like I get some of what you say, but to someone who follows this thread but never posts you just come across as a HUGE Lebron hater. Which is your prerogative ofc.
Fwiw I always thought lebron/wade/bosh was in some ways a response to the Boston thing and generally think of that as the first example of three good players intentionally joining up.
I get that, and I respect your opinion of me, after all, its difficult to discern intentions based on our limited discussion here. I guess Im in a ohase where as a Lebron fan, all the Lebron cultists' and Bronsexuals' blind worship of Lebron is annoying and I feel I have to provide a more level-headed appreciation of his game, In the end, what matters to me is the enjoyment of high quality game and excellent players, whether they come in the form of Lebron, KD, Kawhi, or Giannis.
Also, that may be true, but the significant difference is that KD/PP/RA are beyond their primes already.
On June 16 2017 13:10 cLutZ wrote: I'm sorry, but the Spurs in 2013-14 were written off as dead going into the season. That Duncan is awesome, Kawhi got good, and the Spurs system makes old AF Parker & Ginobili look good even when they are dead doesn't magically change that for the next two years.
Written off as dead? They were picked first or second in the stacked west by pretty much everyone, and then Kawhi took 'the leap' and went from super quality player relative to what it took to get him from Indiana, to outright star. Plus, who the fuck cares what a team was picked to do preseason? I care how they actually perform after 82+playoffs, and that Spurs team was really fucking good.
I wouldn't call them a 'superteam' the way you guys are defining it but they weren't some sorry ass squad, and they weren't anywhere near as surprising a champ as the Mavs.
Also after all of this followup I still have no idea why Twinkle was trying to invoke draft pick positions for players like it means GSW isn't disgustingly talented. Player development is a thing, and GSW appears to be good at it(or players outperform their draft position, it happens, Green would be the only one to be doing so at an insane margin and he simultaneously appears to be the most role-player-esque of the group, shocker). Mass credit to their organization but it doesn't mean they aren't still a stacked team even if they home grew that shit.
Draw parallels to other sports if you want. Yankees of that late 90s/early 2000s run was a ton of home grown talent, doesn't mean they weren't talented because they developed them in their own farm system instead of signing monster FA's. Tom Brady is the fucking GOAT for crying out loud, him being a 7th round draft pick is a trivia answer and fun quirk of history about how talent scouting is clearly not perfect, it doesn't mean he isn't a beast.
TIL, 3rd in the West, 5th overall. People best remembered them getting reverse swept after being 2-0 on the Thunder.
syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/1339452.
Only because the Spurs are a perennial 55-60 team almost the entire Duncan era. But no one would consider them a superteam, and Duncan's age was clearly showing already.
Rumors: Boston-Sixers-Chicago on a three team mega deal, could move #1 pick for #3 and future #1 Players involved Butler, Okafor, Fultz. If it pushes through, Sixers Fultz-Simmons-Okafor will be fire next season. And Celtics gets Butler-Johnson/Fox??
On June 17 2017 07:40 Atreides wrote: Like I get some of what you say, but to someone who follows this thread but never posts you just come across as a HUGE Lebron hater. Which is your prerogative ofc.
Fwiw I always thought lebron/wade/bosh was in some ways a response to the Boston thing and generally think of that as the first example of three good players intentionally joining up.
I get that, and I respect your opinion of me, after all, its difficult to discern intentions based on our limited discussion here. I guess Im in a ohase where as a Lebron fan, all the Lebron cultists' and Bronsexuals' blind worship of Lebron is annoying and I feel I have to provide a more level-headed appreciation of his game, In the end, what matters to me is the enjoyment of high quality game and excellent players, whether they come in the form of Lebron, KD, Kawhi, or Giannis.
Also, that may be true, but the significant difference is that KD/PP/RA are beyond their primes already.
On June 16 2017 13:10 cLutZ wrote: I'm sorry, but the Spurs in 2013-14 were written off as dead going into the season. That Duncan is awesome, Kawhi got good, and the Spurs system makes old AF Parker & Ginobili look good even when they are dead doesn't magically change that for the next two years.
Written off as dead? They were picked first or second in the stacked west by pretty much everyone, and then Kawhi took 'the leap' and went from super quality player relative to what it took to get him from Indiana, to outright star. Plus, who the fuck cares what a team was picked to do preseason? I care how they actually perform after 82+playoffs, and that Spurs team was really fucking good.
I wouldn't call them a 'superteam' the way you guys are defining it but they weren't some sorry ass squad, and they weren't anywhere near as surprising a champ as the Mavs.
Also after all of this followup I still have no idea why Twinkle was trying to invoke draft pick positions for players like it means GSW isn't disgustingly talented. Player development is a thing, and GSW appears to be good at it(or players outperform their draft position, it happens, Green would be the only one to be doing so at an insane margin and he simultaneously appears to be the most role-player-esque of the group, shocker). Mass credit to their organization but it doesn't mean they aren't still a stacked team even if they home grew that shit.
Draw parallels to other sports if you want. Yankees of that late 90s/early 2000s run was a ton of home grown talent, doesn't mean they weren't talented because they developed them in their own farm system instead of signing monster FA's. Tom Brady is the fucking GOAT for crying out loud, him being a 7th round draft pick is a trivia answer and fun quirk of history about how talent scouting is clearly not perfect, it doesn't mean he isn't a beast.
TIL, 3rd in the West, 5th overall. People best remembered them getting reverse swept after being 2-0 on the Thunder.
syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/1339452.
Only because the Spurs are a perennial 55-60 team almost the entire Duncan era. But no one would consider them a superteam, and Duncan's age was clearly showing already.
My point, yes. The Spurs basically from 2008 on until they won in 14 were basically "too old". In 2012 people were claiming they "are back" as they were 10-0 in the West until OKC won 4 straight, then got pretty whooped by Miami. At the end of that season the Spurs were considered a tier below much like the Celtics or Rockets this year.
How many live games have people in here seen of LBJ, Leonard, KD, Curry, and Westbrook in the past 4 years.
I've seen LBJ about 10 times. Curry twice. KD twice. Westbrook 3 times and Leonard 1 time.
I think LBJ is still the best in the world by a slim margin, but i have not seen the other players enough to state for 100% certain. I have seen enough games of eastern conference teams that i'd say LBJ is the best player in the eastern conference by a big margin.
i think live game observation is a critical component in player evaluation.
On June 17 2017 15:00 JimmyJRaynor wrote: How many live games have people in here seen of LBJ, Leonard, KD, Curry, and Westbrook in the past 4 years.
I've seen LBJ about 10 times. Curry twice. KD twice. Westbrook 3 times and Leonard 1 time.
I think LBJ is still the best in the world by a slim margin, but i have not seen the other players enough to state for 100% certain. I have seen enough games of eastern conference teams that i'd say LBJ is the best player in the eastern conference by a big margin.
i think live game observation is a critical component in player evaluation.
This is too funny to pass up.
In an era of abundant live television/livestream broadacst, analysts and sports journalists going the full spectrum ranging from ESPN Simmons to SAS/Skip and all the other two-bit "journalists", comprehensive scouting reports, predraft combines and thorough physicals, advanced metrics and big data anuhlitics, to frothy social media that lets us know when Klay is high, what Lebron is jamming to, where and what Booker ate for dinner, and all the other impertinent and irreverent sports drama, all available through this magical world of the cyber - please, oh pretty please, educate us unwashed plebeians what "critical component in player evaluation" can be gleaned through live games that are not available in any of the above? And might I also inquire as to which seats provide the best viewpoint in conducting such evaluations?
C1. Lebron's 2017 Cavs is a superteam, as well as 2010 Heat (the first one arguably) C2. GSW + Durant is a superteam, with a few nuances, but a superteam nonetheless
Which "nuances" are you talking about? Seems to me that GSW Durant Edition is the most glaring example you can think of. Two MVPs in their primes, a defensive superstar and the best two-way guard? If we're pushing it, they might literally have the #1 at each of the 1-to-4 positions. More realistically #1, #2, #2, #3. But you'll certainly find people saying that Klay is the best SG, that Durant is better than Lebron (some say it in this very thread), and that Draymond is the best PF (if you decide to shift AD to center for some reason).
Players on teams with great teamwork get overrated as individual players (see GSW, Spurs). Klay has great defense, but his offense comes and goes so much that he'd struggle on most other teams. Draymond has great defense but a huge part of his game is calling defensive assignments and making plays for other people in offense, something that doesn't necessarily translate well to another team. They are low draft picks for stars with skill sets that are highly leveraged to GSW's style of play. Even Steph Curry's success is partly a product of Kerr's system. This was a middling playoff team with Mark Jackson, remember?
Food for thought, if the Cavs had the same level of teamwork as GSW, how close would the finals be? Who would actually be the better team?
Come on now, Curry is dangerous from 30 feet and Durant is Durant. Klay scored 37 in one quarter, can single-handedly win games by making literally every shot he takes out of nowhere. I'm just saying that GSW is a superteam, end of story, no "nuances" to it. The reverse narrative that suddenly GS is actually not a superteam is just preposterous. We can all rave about teamwork, motion offense, gameplan and all that. You don't do what GS does with midtier players. A lot of it comes down to players actually making the shots, not just getting the looks.
There is a huge difference between a superteam that forms from multiple superstars joining the same team versus a superteam that forms from a bunch of homegrown players getting better together. The second path is available to every single team in the league.
With the exception of Durant, GSW did do it with midtier players. They made their midtier players great. Every single team in the league has the potential to do that. Make your midtier players great. Plenty of players take a leap every year.
What I take exception is this narrative that it takes a historical joining of players on one team to beat Lebron. Two of the "superteams" that beat him (GSW, Spurs) did it with mostly homegrown stars. Teams developing their own drafted players is not some crazy freak occurrence.
What midtier players? You mean according to their draft rank? A few years ago these guys were still developing. Before the title, Green was in his 2nd year, Klay in his 3rd. The guy you could argue seemed destined to be midtier is Curry, but he had some injuries early on in his career iirc that might have slowed down his progression. Now it's obvious that GSW is a team that makes these guys thrive and use their talent to its fullest, but the result is still there, it's the best team in the league, and I still stand by my belief that most of these guys are also individually great.
Out of the 4 GSW main guys, the only one who wouldn't do as well in a random team is Draymond. He wouldn't even be considered a star, just a defensive role player. That's GSW's true master stroke for me.
On June 17 2017 15:00 JimmyJRaynor wrote: How many live games have people in here seen of LBJ, Leonard, KD, Curry, and Westbrook in the past 4 years.
I've seen LBJ about 10 times. Curry twice. KD twice. Westbrook 3 times and Leonard 1 time.
I think LBJ is still the best in the world by a slim margin, but i have not seen the other players enough to state for 100% certain. I have seen enough games of eastern conference teams that i'd say LBJ is the best player in the eastern conference by a big margin.
i think live game observation is a critical component in player evaluation.
This is too funny to pass up.
In an era of abundant live television/livestream broadacst, analysts and sports journalists going the full spectrum ranging from ESPN Simmons to SAS/Skip and all the other two-bit "journalists", comprehensive scouting reports, predraft combines and thorough physicals, advanced metrics and big data anuhlitics, to frothy social media that lets us know when Klay is high, what Lebron is jamming to, where and what Booker ate for dinner, and all the other impertinent and irreverent sports drama, all available through this magical world of the cyber - please, oh pretty please, educate us unwashed plebeians what "critical component in player evaluation" can be gleaned through live games that are not available in any of the above? And might I also inquire as to which seats provide the best viewpoint in conducting such evaluations?
i like to be within 15 rows of the court. however, any where in the building and then later going home and watching it on TV still provides more information. obviously the closer to the action the more info the LIVE experience adds.
anyhow, you want snarky , fuck you attitude.. here you go.
i didn't fully appreciate LBJ's game until i went to the Air Canada Centre 2 hours before game time. If the difference between the top 5 players were large it'd be easy to say who is the best. I think the difference between these guys is small enough that live game evaluation is crucial.
my uncle has scouted for 3 NHL teams. every scout will tell you that you get the most info by actually being there. When Dana White looks for new fighting talent his attitude is... "tv is ok" .. "physically being at ringside tells you far more." This also applies to the NBA and every other sport.
when advanced scouts stop going to the building and just sit on their couch .. .. lemme know.
more and many diverse forms of information are valuable.... and 1 of those forms includes live game observation.
On June 17 2017 20:29 RowdierBob wrote: Defensive role player?! Don't sleep on Green's offensive game because he isn't a great scorer. He's a big Jason Kidd out there.
He's a good passer, but that's his only tool. Another team than GSW might have easily slept on the passing part, and then they'd be looking at a subpar offensive player.
I find it funny that the one moment I concede that a GSW player's individual abilities are elevated by his team using him to full potential, someone answers that he's an elite indivual piece... I'm the one who made that point in the first place.
On June 17 2017 15:00 JimmyJRaynor wrote: How many live games have people in here seen of LBJ, Leonard, KD, Curry, and Westbrook in the past 4 years.
I've seen LBJ about 10 times. Curry twice. KD twice. Westbrook 3 times and Leonard 1 time.
I think LBJ is still the best in the world by a slim margin, but i have not seen the other players enough to state for 100% certain. I have seen enough games of eastern conference teams that i'd say LBJ is the best player in the eastern conference by a big margin.
i think live game observation is a critical component in player evaluation.
This is too funny to pass up.
In an era of abundant live television/livestream broadacst, analysts and sports journalists going the full spectrum ranging from ESPN Simmons to SAS/Skip and all the other two-bit "journalists", comprehensive scouting reports, predraft combines and thorough physicals, advanced metrics and big data anuhlitics, to frothy social media that lets us know when Klay is high, what Lebron is jamming to, where and what Booker ate for dinner, and all the other impertinent and irreverent sports drama, all available through this magical world of the cyber - please, oh pretty please, educate us unwashed plebeians what "critical component in player evaluation" can be gleaned through live games that are not available in any of the above? And might I also inquire as to which seats provide the best viewpoint in conducting such evaluations?
i like to be within 15 rows of the court. however, any where in the building and then later going home and watching it on TV still provides more information. obviously the closer to the action the more info the LIVE experience adds.
anyhow, you want snarky , fuck you attitude.. here you go.
i didn't fully appreciate LBJ's game until i went to the Air Canada Centre 2 hours before game time. If the difference between the top 5 players were large it'd be easy to say who is the best. I think the difference between these guys is small enough that live game evaluation is crucial.
my uncle has scouted for 3 NHL teams. every scout will tell you that you get the most info by actually being there. When Dana White looks for new fighting talent his attitude is... "tv is ok" .. "physically being at ringside tells you far more." This also applies to the NBA and every other sport.
when advanced scouts stop going to the building and just sit on their couch .. .. lemme know.
more and many diverse forms of information are valuable.... and 1 of those forms includes live game observation.
This is the most elaborate (only in the sense that an inebriated man finds the space between his door and the living room couch elaborate) use of the English language in order to say exactly nothing. No other configuration of English words delivered a more dedicate, precise, and effective utterance of senselessness.
Let me simplify this for you: When you claimed "critical component in player evaluation", I did not exactly expect some multiverse-forming, life-changing, zero-dividing truth to be revealed before us. A little sensible explanation would have been enough.
Instead, what do we get? A verbal diarrhea of self-repetitions, anecdotes, humblebrags, logical fallacies, weasel words, incoherent rambling, internal contradictions, hollow statement, and complete nonsense. You could have made better use of the three hours you spent composing your reply by typing down "I don't know what I'm talking about" in all of ten seconds and we would all have gone on with our lives with little remark.
If you are still confused, let me simplify it even further:
i didn't fully appreciate LBJ's game until i went to the Air Canada Centre 2 hours before game time. If the difference between the top 5 players were large it'd be easy to say who is the best. I think the difference between these guys is small enough that live game evaluation is crucial.
What is this difference then that can only be seen by watching the game live in person instead of the other platforms I mentioned before (such as live tv/net broadcast, youtube, advanced analytics, expert analysis and punditry, comprehensive scouting reports, industry-standard physical evaluation, and social media posts)? I'm not saying that there aren't. as there might very well be. All I'm saying is that since YOU claimed there are "critical component in player evaluation" available through watching the game in person that is nor available elsewhere, YOU provide the evidence for such. In this case, you have failed to do so. Merely saying so doesn't make it so.
my uncle has scouted for 3 NHL teams. every scout will tell you that you get the most info by actually being there. When Dana White looks for new fighting talent his attitude is... "tv is ok" .. "physically being at ringside tells you far more." This also applies to the NBA and every other sport.
This is neither here nor there. I could also go to great lengths about my uncle and and talk about how he scouts and evaluates which wrestler in WWE is the best. Mighty Mouse would also have you know about Dana to "Don't believe his lies". I think I've made my point clear on this specific retort. BESIDES, did I not already include "comprehensive scouting" in one of the methods to evaluate players? So unless we (not general "we" but actual you and me) are scouts, it is best that we leave the actual scout-level evaluation to professional scouts, and make our informed opinion based on their reports. Besides again, this still does not answer the question of What "critical component in player evaluation have you gathered by being physically being present during games that you cannot otherwise? You just said your uncle says so, Dana White says so, etc. etc, so it must be true.
when advanced scouts stop going to the building and just sit on their couch .. .. lemme know.
Oh dear god! This is the same as above, only bolder and more aneurysm-inducing in its sheer asininity.
more and many diverse forms of information are valuable.... and 1 of those forms includes live game observation.
I'm stretching a bit on this one, but since I've gone this far, I might as well. This one is is poorly-constructed. I think you meant to write "more and many diverse formsmethods of information-gathering are valuable.... and 1 of those forms includes live game observation." And then again, you run the same problem of doing wild ramblings instead of supporting your claim.
Listen kiddo, I don't mean to be harsh, but unless you really have some support for your claim, learn from this exchange and suck it in. I mean you no harm, and you should take none. Let's go and enjoy the rest of the day.
PS. I know you are a kid for many reasons, such as but not limited to, your diction, grammar, punctuation, and writing style, the quality of your arguments, and not very many Americans in their twenties and older would refer to Lebron James as LBJ. So please don't tell me you're not a kid anymore.
hello I'm over 20 and I refer to lebron as leflop and lebreezy I am at the age where LBJ refers to the president that police actioned Vietnam real good
On June 18 2017 05:05 andyrau wrote: hello I'm over 20 and I refer to lebron as leflop and lebreezy I am at the age where LBJ refers to the president that police actioned Vietnam real good
This Boston (likely fake) trade talk is so spicy. I don't see what the plan is for anyone besides Philly, who would be in great position with a healthy Fultz/Wiggans/Saric with Embiid upside if he ever is really
On June 18 2017 09:29 cLutZ wrote: This Boston (likely fake) trade talk is so spicy. I don't see what the plan is for anyone besides Philly, who would be in great position with a healthy Fultz/Wiggans/Saric with Embiid upside if he ever is really
plan for boston is to sign someone big or get enough assets to trade for one.
On June 18 2017 09:29 cLutZ wrote: This Boston (likely fake) trade talk is so spicy. I don't see what the plan is for anyone besides Philly, who would be in great position with a healthy Fultz/Wiggans/Saric with Embiid upside if he ever is really
plan for boston is to sign someone big or get enough assets to trade for one.
Possibly, but why wouldn't thier trade partner for a Butler/etc want the #1 also? To me this trade makes sense to Boston if: 1) You are uniquely low on Fultz and prefer a lower ranked player; or 2) You plan on trading Thomas & other assets that are getting close to New contracts (Crowder, Bradley) and basically are re-rebuilding around Brown and new picks.
Celtics FO is making all the best decisions. Fultz is not a Jordan/Shaq level talent, and it has a lot of assets that it can utilize to build further. I think it's wise for them to wait it out a bit while stacking on trade and draft assets. Too bad though, with this strategy, IT4 will be eventually moved
On June 18 2017 13:23 Twinkle Toes wrote: Too bad though, with this strategy, IT4 will be eventually moved
if your goal is to win a championship Thomas can't be your starting PG. if all you want to do is make the playoffs Thomas is ur guy. i think everybody's favourite former toronto blue jay is making all the right moves.
On June 18 2017 13:23 Twinkle Toes wrote: Too bad though, with this strategy, IT4 will be eventually moved
if your goal is to win a championship Thomas can't be your starting PG. if all you want to do is make the playoffs Thomas is ur guy. i think everybody's favourite former toronto blue jay is making all the right moves.
"You put together good games individually, but to put together good games individually and achieve team success is like nirvana. That’s what you always want as a basketball player. You want to play well, and you also want your team to win."
"When I’m not guarding LeBron [James], I was guarding Kevin Love. And Kyrie [Irving] some possessions. So it was like I didn’t have a break. I had to be on alert with all of those guys. Kyle Korver, when he came into the game. J.R. Smith. And offensive rebounding, it’s like [Iman] Shumpert and Richard Jefferson. You gotta always be aware of them because they’re gonna cut. They’re gonna make the winning basketball plays outside of just making baskets. But then on top of that, they had shooters. So it was kind of hard to lock in on helping on LeBron when he’s driving but also knowing that he could whip a pass to the corner and hit a shooter. So I had to be on guard for every type of movement, from running around chasing Korver to Kyrie dribbling 10 times in a possession to get a basket, or LeBron trying to bully his way to the rim and Kevin Love trying to post me up. I was trying to worry about so many different ways to get a stop. That’s why I was so stressed. That’s why I couldn’t sleep. They had so many weapons."
"Yeah, exactly. And we knew that, first of all, the way we move in our offense tires defenses out no matter what. So we knew we had Ian Clark, Pat McCaw, Andre Iguodala, Shaun Livingston [coming off the bench]. They’re not the “clear out the way, iso them, let’s go get a basket” [kind of guys]. They tire other teams out and score when they’re not supposed to basically because they move around — they cut. They get layups, they get easy baskets, and they play defense. So it just overwhelms you with the way we play, and on top of that the IQ we have on the bench as well is the reason why we’re so deep."
"We all watched Cleveland all year. Just watching how they play defense. And they pack the paint a lot and they were good on initial action, but after two or three passes, we found out we could get a lot of stuff on the back end because they’re not as disciplined after the first few passes as they should have been. The Celtics exposed that a little bit. The Indiana series as well, they were getting a lot of open looks. We just passed the ball eight — sometimes eight or nine times in a possession. And that tires the defenses out."
"Yeah, that’s what I’m telling you. It was back and forth. We were missing layups, they were struggling to score, like it was just a battle. And then we pulled away. We were up [eight points at the half] in Game 1, then we pulled away in the third. Every game we always told ourselves, “Take the first punch, play well in the first punch, and then after that, we gonna see where they are.” Because, you know, they always used to come out super strong, so they didn’t really pace themselves. They just always wanted to blitz us early."
"LeBron plays with force, and he plays downhill. So when you, as a coach, say you need to up the pace, upping the pace is him just getting downhill, getting to the rim. And that’s taxing. And then especially having to guard, too, down on the other end, guard us with the way we move. So it was like, you’re coming out the gates real, real strong, real, real fast, and at some point you’ll start to level off."
"Yeah, that was probably a game we probably would have lost [on game 1 vs. Spurs]."
"It kind of all played out so perfectly. We were getting stops, we were forcing them to play one-on-one, and making them shoot over the top of us. And we rebounded. And coach didn’t call a timeout when we were down two with 45 seconds to go. We probably could have called a timeout and set up like a 2-for-1 or something. So he didn’t call a timeout and, like you said, I saw LeBron just heels behind the 3."
"Exactly. That’s exactly how I looked at the whole series, too: like a pickup game. The type of players that you would play pickup with, like, it felt like they were all on the court. Like you get the big, strong fast bully who just runs to the rim like LeBron James. You get the dude that’s gonna dribble the whole possession and look sweet while doing it in Kyrie Irving. Then you get the big white guy who can rebound and shoot 3s: Kevin Love. It feels like it was a team created at 24 Hour Fitness. That’s how I was looking at it."
"Exactly. That’s exactly how I looked at the whole series, too: like a pickup game. The type of players that you would play pickup with, like, it felt like they were all on the court. Like you get the big, strong fast bully who just runs to the rim like LeBron James. You get the dude that’s gonna dribble the whole possession and look sweet while doing it in Kyrie Irving. Then you get the big white guy who can rebound and shoot 3s: Kevin Love. It feels like it was a team created at 24 Hour Fitness. That’s how I was looking at it."
" Yes! He [Javale] was an unbelievable teammate. He brought everybody together. He was the reason why we were so tight. Yeah, his spirit is just [an] open spirit. He’s just always in a good mood. Just his own person. And everybody just sort of gravitates to it. He was friends with everybody in a different way."
He [Jefferson] was physical — I can’t say he was fouling because I’ve been played like that before. But when I caught the ball, he was so physical that I had him on his heels and I would just catch it and go in to the rim. So I knew that all his weight was forward, so when I caught the ball he was face-guarding me. … I was just catching and going. So I just tried to use that against him."
"Yeah, we put in work, man. Stop telling us that it wasn’t earned or that we didn’t work for it. We were the most disciplined team all year. We preached teamwork and togetherness all season. And it’s hard to do that with a bunch of egos in the league."
"They drafted Klay. They drafted Curry. Minnesota passed Steph twice. Draymond was the 35th pick. They created the cap space to get Iguodala. They created the cap space to get you. They went and bought the McCaw pick. When they signed Livingston, they weren’t like, “Oh, Shaun Livingston is the reason we’re gonna win the championship now.” That wasn’t a thought when they signed Shaun Livingston. They were like, “Oh, this is a good piece, a solid piece.” Nobody was calling that the game-changing piece. But now it’s a superteam now. … Klay Thompson, just being a shooter, was the 11th pick. A lot of people could’ve had him. They didn’t. Draymond Green was the 35th pick. He didn’t play as much his first few years; now everybody wants players like Draymond Green. These dudes weren’t coming out of high school as the best players in their class. They had great college careers but they weren’t highly touted. They started winning because they had a great coach and they’re playing together and playing the game the way it’s supposed to be played. You wanna discredit what they do by saying it’s supposed to be easy? No. They put in the work, everybody put in the work. And they want to play the right way."
thx for posting this. he left out Toronto. LOL. what weaknesses did Toronto expose with their super amazing lineup that was an improvement on last year's team.
On June 18 2017 13:23 Twinkle Toes wrote: Too bad though, with this strategy, IT4 will be eventually moved
if your goal is to win a championship Thomas can't be your starting PG. if all you want to do is make the playoffs Thomas is ur guy. i think everybody's favourite former toronto blue jay is making all the right moves.
S'what I said. Water. It's wet.
right , so its not "too bad" as you stated.. its inevitable.
That Minnesota thing always amuses me. They drafted point guards on the #5th and #6th spot. Curry went #7. Then they drafted another point guard with something like the #17th or #18th pick
On June 18 2017 09:29 cLutZ wrote: This Boston (likely fake) trade talk is so spicy. I don't see what the plan is for anyone besides Philly, who would be in great position with a healthy Fultz/Wiggans/Saric with Embiid upside if he ever is really
plan for boston is to sign someone big or get enough assets to trade for one.
Possibly, but why wouldn't thier trade partner for a Butler/etc want the #1 also? To me this trade makes sense to Boston if: 1) You are uniquely low on Fultz and prefer a lower ranked player; or 2) You plan on trading Thomas & other assets that are getting close to New contracts (Crowder, Bradley) and basically are re-rebuilding around Brown and new picks.
I heard that they possibly want somebody like Jackson as the number 3 pick and think he's likely available in that spot. But that means that they're thinking of keeping IT2. More draft picks means more shots on goal. It is a nice theory but the NBA is more top heavy than the NFL. That's an NFL draft strategy that they're employing.
The Celtics already have a full stable of average to above average players. They don't need to get deeper.
As a rental to the Cavs for cheap...? I'm down for that. I don't know if it's likely to happen, but if I'm PG I would look to make the most of this year if possible. Cleveland is the best (only?) bet for a ring. I've read he would play for the Raptors too (https://twitter.com/Yg_Trece/status/14048538731).