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On September 20 2012 07:38 Grapefruit wrote:
That doesn't change the fact that it's boring unit. A Science Vessel could have also improved Mech and would have been WAY cooler.
Are you kidding me? The Viper and the SH allow for whole new Zerg styles altogether, while the MC core is amazing for greedy as well as aggressive builds.
So, Swarm Host and Viper allow for whole new Zerg style but Widow Mine and Battle Hellion don't do the same thing for Terran? You are finding Battle Hellions to be boring, while you shouldn't be looking at it like a new unit, but as Hellion that got an upgrade, to be more effective, and it isn't one-dimensional unit anymore, it has different roles in different circumstances, it can now harass, kill workers as well as being a tanky unit that soaks up damage for Marine timing attacks, for Tank line etc. You can do a lot with the Hellion for only 100 minerals. Just because you find it boring, doesn't make it boring, that is your own problem. To me, it is pretty interesting unit. A lot of other players would argue how Swarm Host is terrible unit that is boring with endless waves of Locusts and just adds to the Death Ball, that is still just their opinion.
And as usual, your posts reek from bias.
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Aside from pro players and casters I honestly see no reason for T players to get HotS. Why am I paying to make life difficult for myself?
And people are overrating the battle hellion. Regular hellions are better most of the time if you have good micro since they're much faster.
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On September 20 2012 13:08 S_SienZ wrote: And people are overrating the battle hellion. Regular hellions are better most of the time if you have good micro since they're much faster.
LOL, try to roast Chargelots in an actual engagement with Hellions, then with BHs.
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On September 20 2012 13:14 Crawdad wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 13:08 S_SienZ wrote: And people are overrating the battle hellion. Regular hellions are better most of the time if you have good micro since they're much faster. LOL, try to roast Chargelots in an actual engagement with Hellions, then with BHs. That's one situation they are good. I said most of the time, not always.
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Russian Federation216 Posts
On September 20 2012 13:14 Crawdad wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 13:08 S_SienZ wrote: And people are overrating the battle hellion. Regular hellions are better most of the time if you have good micro since they're much faster. LOL, try to roast Chargelots in an actual engagement with Hellions, then with BHs.
LOL, try to roast Chargelots in an actual engagement with new super awesome Battle Hellions - protoss still will win ^_^
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On September 20 2012 17:10 Fen1kz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 13:14 Crawdad wrote:On September 20 2012 13:08 S_SienZ wrote: And people are overrating the battle hellion. Regular hellions are better most of the time if you have good micro since they're much faster. LOL, try to roast Chargelots in an actual engagement with Hellions, then with BHs. LOL, try to roast Chargelots in an actual engagement with new super awesome Battle Hellions - protoss still will win ^_^ Yes, if you don't target fire with Siege Tanks, Protoss will obviously win. Just watch Morrow games, you will see what people are talking about.
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Aside from balance issues, what blizzard is doing now with Terran is completely against what an expansion should be bringing with new units/upgrades
a) Diversify the gameplay options on multiple fronts to increase entertainment value for both playing games, and spectatorship in esports. b) Give the crowd alot of new goodies to try out, and actually look forward to.
Now if you dont look at just units, but upgrades/abilities too, Blizzard did a very fine job with zerg and protoss. I am a casual player, and do not have the time nor the illusion that I can compete competitvely. Also I play random/switch races.
So when I am going to play Protoss, I will be very happy to try out the mothership core that allows me to gamble for economic profit (strong early defense, more chronoboost), but also to go for earlier hit and run strategies through mass recall. Phoenix speed increase will make the PvP metagame more interesting, and gives me more options for ZvP play. The oracle gives me an interesting support caster, which I can use for harassment, scouting or general support during the rest of the game. And last I get siege weapon (the Tempest), that can either be used for harassment on certain maps, or be included in my main armies to deal with certain army compositions.
Now as Zerg, I finally get an amazing unit (the swarm host)that I can play in all 3 matchups, and gives me both defense and offensive utility. Plus adds options I didnt have before, like putting siege to a protoss/terran base. I get an amazing support caster (the viper), that can fullfill alot of different roles, both offensively and defensively. Specialised in breaking well defended positions/siege lines. Next to that I can finally make use of the hydra, because it doesnt move around as a snail, which again I can use in all 3 matchups. And last but not least, I got a huge buff to one of the strongest lategame units out there, the Ultralisk. Burrow strike is amazing to compensate for it being a melee unit.
Now as terran, I get a reaper that is buffed and nerfed (they removed the explosive charges, correct me if I am wrong), which I might be able to utilise in later bio play. I get an upgrade to an existing unit (the battle helion), which seems to be an upgrade thats usefull in limited circumstances. Last I get an unit that can be amazing (the widow mine), but in current form seems to be only mediocre in use. So as a terran player you get some extra options to utilise with mech, and THATS IT. There are no interesting possibilities to consider for different strategies, BUT mech.
Now a quick thing about balance issues, aside from all the trolling that usually goes around. Since launch of WoL, Terran got ONLY nerfs, and not a single buff on any unit/upgrade (aside from the ghost cost reduction). Yes Terran was extremely dominant in the early days of Sc2, and most nerfs were justified. However we almost live in 2013 now, and alot of things changed since then, including Terran dominance. As it currently stands, Protoss has been overly dominating in the korean scene, and if I am not mistaken this is already the case for 4 months.
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On September 20 2012 17:25 Ramiz1989 wrote: Yes, if you don't target fire with Siege Tanks, Protoss will obviously win. Just watch Morrow games, you will see what people are talking about.
To be fair, I watch MorroW's stream pretty regularly, and mech still sucks in that MU. But it's not because of Chargelots.
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On September 20 2012 07:19 Grumbels wrote: If you don't think that's good enough, then okay, but don't turn it into race whine about how zerg has it so much better. Honestly, I could make a new thread called "zerg sucks in HotS" and make it about how battle hellions are too strong vs zerglings and how MsC's recall is too annoying. And people would agree with me and use it as a jumping off point to express generic feelings of discontent. Doesn't mean it's worthwhile discussion.
Go on, be my guest, make that thread. And watch people laugh at you. There is a reason you see people complaining mostly about terran and not so much about other races. And not only terran players...
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What are people's thoughts on a shield breaker upgrade to the tank? Something from the armory that would let tank shots do ~ 5-10 damage to toss shields?
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Aside from all balance points... Terran just got boring shit with HotS. Warhoud? Boring and luckily gone! Battlehellion? Well that isn't even a new unit. It's an option to make a quick and interesting unit into a slow amover... great....NOT! Widow mine? Really guys, I don't give up 2!!! Supply for such an option... a 2baneling bomb comes with 1supply and can be put into the actual army back again if needed. The widow mine is a huge supply commitment to a possibility that mostly builds on the opponent not being prepared. and if ppl come with focus fire and manually control... we have the best zerg players in the world missing to hit their banelingbombs on a regular basis, which is one hit on a key. And you expect terrans to manually targetfire widow mines? seriously? If someone had the APM to do it, then he should spend those into mutiple harassment instead of this shit! The only real improvement/new option we have is the battle hellion, and that's pretty few for an expansion set...
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To the OP question- Yes. Terran in HOTS is a total disappointment. HOTS is not adressing any of the issues I'm having in the different matchups at my level of play (EU plat) but rather make Terran even worse in comparison to the other races in HOTS. I'm sure Blizzard has data and whatnot from higher level play to back up what HOTS is for Terran, and I get that that's how they have to balance it, but I'm not MVP or Thorzain. I can't make Terran late-game work now, so how can I expect to make it work in HOTS with no news except a ghost nerf? And consider this: I dont want to be MVP or GM or even master league. I'm lucky if I ever reach diamond. I dont understand why the game has to be worse (harder) for Terran if you're "bad" than for the other races. It would be so much more fun if it was balanced late-game a bit further down in the leagues.
Wow this sounds so much like balance whine, reading it back.
TLDR: Terran late game is weak if you're "bad" compared to the other races. No changes in HOTS, the other guys just get more stuff. I change races for HOTS. Also I'm a balance whiner and I should probably just be quiet.
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I agree with the people who want a new unit instead of the war hound. This is not about balance or how polished a race is, or about a 'new shiny unit'. This unit, if it's a good one, could add a lot of dynamics to the game. It could be a really interesting unit to spectate and to play with. It could add fun to the game (an unfamiliar concept to sc2). Balance you should come after gameplay. In brood war they weren't thinking about balance, they were thinking about adding a cool new unit, game play and lore wise. And guess what ? Together with great maps and a few small balance patches they made the best RTS and an incredible e-sport game.
And there's no shame in taking units from brood war and experimenting with them. Add the reaver, remove collussus for a patch or two and see if it shows potential in fun etc If it doesn't work out? You atleast tried and satisfied the entire community with a history in brood war (and others who would be just as thrilled to see the reaver).
The swarm host, is a rehashed concept of the lurker but not nearly as interesting. It singlehandedly made me stop watching zerg streams because it's again an incredibly boring unit. Roach versus roach battles are considered to be really dull, well when I last watched it was swarm host vs swarm host battle. Streams of free units walk up to each other, attacking and dying. A unit like this is not the future for e-sports. The viper on the other hand, is a good unit. Even though it has consume, disruption web and guttling hook (from pudge), it provides totally new dynamics, gives zergs a way to outmicro their opponent and actually is fun to play with and to watch. The viper is a good unit.
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on the +side my Terran brothers.....We got marines......maybe they should give them another armor/health upgrade and call it "Halo Time" <3
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Its not the units that are the problem its the production that sucks. 60 seconds to make barracks and 50 to add reactor... how is it still in the game?? Since other races have got buffs to defend early game allins MM rushes are not the issue anymore. For the love of god buff the production facilities of terran blizzard!!!
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i really dont understand wtf is blizzard doing, its an expansion, in which every race should get new exciting units, and only after that comes balance, because i wont buy expansion that is only balance change, that should have been in wol already... Also Battle hellion. Its Additional mode for same unit, it have slightly tweaked stats, that took 5 mins to make. Srsly wow. Widow mine. Baneling without ability to use in main army. Now the compare that to exciting casting unit like viper or even swarm or new toss units and it srsly begs to differ why would terrans even bother with hots, when the others will be playing with new stuff, terran will be building same old boring units(marines, marauders for life bro!). I srsly lol how they add units to other races that wants to be in deathballs(swarm host, viper, tempest). Then add widow mine to terran and say shit like "well we want games to have less death ball". Guess what happens? terran never makes widow mines, because the other two races only a move with deathballs, forcing terran to make a GODDAMN deathball themself.
Also lets do a unit count for terran not including summons(aka mule, infested marine image by sentry and stuff like that). toss Zealot Stalker Sentry High Templar Dark Templar Immortal Colossus Archon Observer Warp Prism Phoenix Void Ray Carrier Mothership Mothership core Tempest Oracle 17units.
Zerg Queen Zergling Baneling Roach Hydralisk Infestor Ultralisk Overlord(this is actually unit, that you can drop with with scout drop creep and stuff) Overseer Mutalisk Corruptor Brood Lord Viper Swarm host. 15units.
Terran. Marine Marauder Reaper Ghost Hellion Siege Tank Thor Viking Medivac Raven Banshee Battlecruiser Battlehelion(this shouldnt even be counted because, then we should count every zerg unit that is burrowed a differnt unit, since they all have differnt stats, also we should count warprism in flying or phase mode as differnt units aswell... differnt stats..but i added this anyway ) Widow mine. 14units.
Terran lowest amount of units, if they dont add new unit/units to terran everyone and there grandmas will be playing zerg and toss.
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On September 21 2012 01:34 Dephy wrote: Also lets do a unit count for terran not including summons(aka mule, infested marine image by sentry and stuff like that). toss Zealot Stalker Sentry High Templar Dark Templar Immortal Colossus Archon Observer Warp Prism Phoenix Void Ray Carrier Mothership Mothership core Tempest Oracle 17units.
Zerg Queen Zergling Baneling Roach Hydralisk Infestor Ultralisk Overlord(this is actually unit, that you can drop with with scout drop creep and stuff) Overseer Mutalisk Corruptor Brood Lord Viper Swarm host. 15units.
Terran. Marine Marauder Reaper Ghost Hellion Siege Tank Thor Viking Medivac Raven Banshee Battlecruiser Battlehelion(this shouldnt even be counted because, then we should count every zerg unit that is burrowed a differnt unit, since they all have differnt stats, also we should count warprism in flying or phase mode as differnt units aswell... differnt stats..but i added this anyway ) Widow mine. 14units.
Terran lowest amount of units, if they dont add new unit/units to terran everyone and there grandmas will be playing zerg and toss.
The funniest thing is that you listed 14 Zerg units, and said there is 15...
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On September 21 2012 01:46 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 01:34 Dephy wrote: Also lets do a unit count for terran not including summons(aka mule, infested marine image by sentry and stuff like that). toss Zealot Stalker Sentry High Templar Dark Templar Immortal Colossus Archon Observer Warp Prism Phoenix Void Ray Carrier Mothership Mothership core Tempest Oracle 17units.
Zerg Queen Zergling Baneling Roach Hydralisk Infestor Ultralisk Overlord(this is actually unit, that you can drop with with scout drop creep and stuff) Overseer Mutalisk Corruptor Brood Lord Viper Swarm host. 15units.
Terran. Marine Marauder Reaper Ghost Hellion Siege Tank Thor Viking Medivac Raven Banshee Battlecruiser Battlehelion(this shouldnt even be counted because, then we should count every zerg unit that is burrowed a differnt unit, since they all have differnt stats, also we should count warprism in flying or phase mode as differnt units aswell... differnt stats..but i added this anyway ) Widow mine. 14units.
Terran lowest amount of units, if they dont add new unit/units to terran everyone and there grandmas will be playing zerg and toss.
The funniest thing is that you listed 14 Zerg units, and said there is 15... sry made mistake :}
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On September 21 2012 00:41 Cheerio wrote: Its not the units that are the problem its the production that sucks. 60 seconds to make barracks and 50 to add reactor... how is it still in the game?? Since other races have got buffs to defend early game allins MM rushes are not the issue anymore. For the love of god buff the production facilities of terran blizzard!!!
Bunkering Zerg's natural expansion is still an issue, albeit less of an issue after the Barracks and Bunker nerfs.
Out of curiousity, would anybody play with Firebats if they added them to Barracks/Techlab? Instead of making undercosted, overpowered Battle Hellions off of Factory/Reactor tech or even Factory/Reactor Armory tech that have 35 more hit points and can be repaired with SCVs, it might be more interesting to add Firebats back to Barracks/Techlab tech in order to force Mech to utilize both the Barracks for "anti-Zealot" meat shields and the Starport for "anti-air" while giving Bio an "upgrade" as well in the Zerg and Protoss match ups.
The Battle Hellion is just an ugly, awkward unit as it is and its current implementation is "odd" from a game design perspective.
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On September 21 2012 01:34 Dephy wrote: i really dont understand wtf is blizzard doing, its an expansion, in which every race should get new exciting units, and only after that comes balance, because i wont buy expansion that is only balance change, that should have been in wol already... Also Battle hellion. Its Additional mode for same unit, it have slightly tweaked stats, that took 5 mins to make. Srsly wow. Widow mine. Baneling without ability to use in main army. Now the compare that to exciting casting unit like viper or even swarm or new toss units and it srsly begs to differ why would terrans even bother with hots, when the others will be playing with new stuff, terran will be building same old boring units(marines, marauders for life bro!). I srsly lol how they add units to other races that wants to be in deathballs(swarm host, viper, tempest). Then add widow mine to terran and say shit like "well we want games to have less death ball". Guess what happens? terran never makes widow mines, because the other two races only a move with deathballs, forcing terran to make a GODDAMN deathball themself.
Also lets do a unit count for terran not including summons(aka mule, infested marine image by sentry and stuff like that). toss Zealot Stalker Sentry High Templar Dark Templar Immortal Colossus Archon Observer Warp Prism Phoenix Void Ray Carrier Mothership Mothership core Tempest Oracle 17units.
Zerg Queen Zergling Baneling Roach Hydralisk Infestor Ultralisk Overlord(this is actually unit, that you can drop with with scout drop creep and stuff) Overseer Mutalisk Corruptor Brood Lord Viper Swarm host. 15units.
Terran. Marine Marauder Reaper Ghost Hellion Siege Tank Thor Viking Medivac Raven Banshee Battlecruiser Battlehelion(this shouldnt even be counted because, then we should count every zerg unit that is burrowed a differnt unit, since they all have differnt stats, also we should count warprism in flying or phase mode as differnt units aswell... differnt stats..but i added this anyway ) Widow mine. 14units.
Terran lowest amount of units, if they dont add new unit/units to terran everyone and there grandmas will be playing zerg and toss.
more units does not mean anything. protoss units are very one-dimensional, while most of terran units have more than one role, marines are like 3-in-1.
that is why in the late game protoss composition uses zealot, stalker, sentry, HT, Colossus, archon, observer, warp prism... while terran can use MMM, ghost & vikings.
zergs can get the ultimate composition with only 3 units: brood, infestor, corruptor.
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