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I don't know, to be honest since the start of the Beta my interest in SC2 has dropped really hard and basically hit the bottom yesterday, when they announced that they are going to change to HSM to 125 energy again.
Really, it just adds up:
>First the Warhound, which was obvious bullshit (and I really wonder what Blizzard has been doing for the past couple of months to release it like that). Only good thing about it is that it's gone. Even if it was a very good unit it was the epitome of boring skill-less play.
>Then the whole BC issue. First it gets that Speed Buff spell, which is re-moved quite quickly in favor of increased damage vs. ground units. Now however the increased damage is a "bug" and got fixed. What the fuck?
>Ghost cloak is also pretty fucked up thanks to the cool-down and makes nukeing a lot harder and riskier. I would understand it if there was a serious issue with nukeing in HotS and they had to fix this later on, but rolling out a straight up nerf in an expansion?
>The Widow Mine could technically be a nice unit but 2 supply is just way to much. The thing here is that Terran doesn't really need any more cost effective units, Bio + Medivac heal is wonderful in that regard, Terran needs supply effective units to deal with Zerg and Protoss lategame.
>The Battle Hellion is okay, I guess, but just not a very interesting unit.
>The only really cool thing is the Reaper, which has gotten really little attention since the nerf back at the beginning of WoL. It's a great opening harass and early map-control unit, not doubt. My problem with it though is that I don't think Terran really needs more stuff for the early and mid-game. We need late-game units.
>Last but not least, the Raven. I was so fucking hyped when I saw that it got a speed buff and that HSM only cost 100 energy. That alone made HotS interesting for me. Well, as it turns out it was just a "bug" (I'd really like to know what Blizzards definition of a bug is, since the spell never did cost 100 energy, so someone MUST have changed it but whatever...).
All in all I'm just utterly disappointed. I hope the "new" Warhound or whatever they are going to give us instead will be REALLY cool.
EDIT:
Carrier and Tempest are staying for sure.
Warhound is gone. There is no top-secret unit waiting in the wings to jump in. It's out.
I cannot promise that something won't happen later (I am not yet able to see into the future) but currently there are no plans for another Terran unit.
-Dustin Browder
Source
You know what, Blizzard? Fuck you.
Think I'll give DotA2 a try.
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I'd be pleased if Blizz gives back the BC and Raven buff.
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I am terran too but I am more toward making the game better not giving cool things to terran. I think terran is the most complete race in SC2 right now. It doesn't really need any groundbreaking change in its gameplay. Some buff and support unit for mech are enough.
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On September 15 2012 20:55 Wildmoon wrote: I am terran too but I am more toward making the game better not giving cool things to terran. I think terran is the most complete race in SC2 right now. It doesn't really need any groundbreaking change in its gameplay. Some buff and support unit for mech are enough.
Terran don't need cool things right now your correct but Hots was a chance to round out Terran Mech a bit more fully giving T a new way to play the game in all matchups while also changing P and Z for the better however all the T changes so far with the exception of the widow mine have been giving T more of the same which they did not need
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HotS = Heart of Terran Suffering
It's almost satirical that they would finally address the BC and the Raven and go "oops it was a bug".
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United Kingdom12009 Posts
>Ghost cloak is also pretty fucked up thanks to the cool-down and makes nukeing a lot harder and riskier. I would understand it if there was a serious issue with nukeing in HotS and they had to fix this later on, but rolling out a straight up nerf in an expansion?
They removed that before the beta even started didn't they?
Terran don't need cool things right now your correct but Hots was a chance to round out Terran Mech a bit more fully giving T a new way to play the game in all matchups while also changing P and Z for the better however all the T changes so far with the exception of the widow mine have been giving T more of the same which they did not need
Battle hellions basically fix the problem TvP has in mech in that hellions are not good enough tanks against chargelots/immortals. Chargelots decemate hellions due to the way the tank splash just kills them so damed fast.
As a terran player, I'm happy with HoTS now.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
Seeker Missle 100 energy cost was a bug. It's 125 energy again. Also yamato Cannon is still 100 energy
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On September 15 2012 21:07 DemigodcelpH wrote: HotS = Heart of Terran Suffering
It's almost satirical that they would finally address the BC and the Raven and go "oops it was a bug".
It's just top-tier level bullshit. I really can't wrap my head around it. They fucking said themselves that the BC will get a damage buff. How the hell is that buff now a bug?! Really? What is going on there?!
And the Raven energy didn't magically change itself either. It might have been unintentional, sure. But why not leave it in and see how it turns out? It's not like they're having a balance masterplan that might get ruined, or at least it really doesn't seem that way if they release the Warhound just as broken as the WoL beta Roach and now ask the players for a better idea...
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On September 15 2012 21:05 MarcH wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2012 20:55 Wildmoon wrote: I am terran too but I am more toward making the game better not giving cool things to terran. I think terran is the most complete race in SC2 right now. It doesn't really need any groundbreaking change in its gameplay. Some buff and support unit for mech are enough. Terran don't need cool things right now your correct but Hots was a chance to round out Terran Mech a bit more fully giving T a new way to play the game in all matchups while also changing P and Z for the better however all the T changes so far with the exception of the widow mine have been giving T more of the same which they did not need
Let's see what happens. The Battle Hellion obvioulsy changes Mech against Protoss. Can I go Battle Hellion + Siege Tank + Thor against Protoss? Sprinkle in some Widow Mines?
We can theorize on this or we can try it. We have a beta. We decided trying it was worth the time. I'm doubtful. When I play the game in my head it won't work and bio is still the way to go. But it might work. The community has done the unexpected many times in the past.
I would put the challenge out to our Terran players. With the units in their current state, can you go mech or partially mech against Protoss? In this beta does it have to be bio? If it still has to be bio, what modifications to the current units should we make to make it more viable? Or is it really impossible without Warhound or something like Warhound?
Don't answer until you have played.=)
-Dustin Browder
My guess is that they'll be coming up with a "Plan B" for the Warhound in case it's needed.
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If DB himself is doubtful that mech will work in that MU, a new mech unit is almost assured.
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On September 15 2012 21:09 Existor wrote: Seeker Missle 100 energy cost was a bug. It's 125 energy again. Also yamato Cannon is still 100 energy
He said that he doesn't see how that could be a bug, someone MUST have edited the value at some stage.
Nothing to do with Yamato was mentioned, the BC had an increase in damage vs ground patched out as a "bug".
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Mines are totally underused, blizzard had to remove the fucking warhound because terran players didn't do anything else, a beta is to test, not to abuse.
HotS beta starts now
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On September 15 2012 20:49 Grapefruit wrote: I don't know, to be honest since the start of the Beta my interest in SC2 has dropped really hard and basically hit the bottom yesterday, when they announced that they are going to change to HSM to 125 energy again.
Really, it just adds up:
>First the Warhound, which was obvious bullshit (and I really wonder what Blizzard has been doing for the past couple of months to release it like that). Only good thing about it is that it's gone. Even if it was a very good unit it was the epitome of boring skill-less play.
>Then the whole BC issue. First it gets that Speed Buff spell, which is re-moved quite quickly in favor of increased damage vs. ground units. Now however the increased damage is a "bug" and got fixed. What the fuck?
>Ghost cloak is also pretty fucked up thanks to the cool-down and makes nukeing a lot harder and riskier. I would understand it if there was a serious issue with nukeing in HotS and they had to fix this later on, but rolling out a straight up nerf in an expansion?
>The Widow Mine could technically be a nice unit but 2 supply is just way to much. The thing here is that Terran doesn't really need any more cost effective units, Bio + Medivac heal is wonderful in that regard, Terran needs supply effective units to deal with Zerg and Protoss lategame.
>The Battle Hellion is okay, I guess, but just not a very interesting unit.
>The only really cool thing is the Reaper, which has gotten really little attention since the nerf back at the beginning of WoL. It's a great opening harass and early map-control unit, not doubt. My problem with it though is that I don't think Terran really needs more stuff for the early and mid-game. We need late-game units.
>Last but not least, the Raven. I was so fucking hyped when I saw that it got a speed buff and that HSM only cost 100 energy. That alone made HotS interesting for me. Well, as it turns out it was just a "bug" (I'd really like to know what Blizzards definition of a bug is, since the spell never did cost 100 energy, so someone MUST have changed it but whatever...).
All in all I'm just utterly disappointed. I hope the "new" Warhound or whatever they are going to give us instead will be REALLY cool.
The Widow Mine is hard to use. You can't expect to master it in a few days. It is different form the Spider Mine, you can't spam in all over the map and hope it works. It has to be well placed, well Microed (proper target and please turnoff auto-attack) and often you'lol have to realocate and unburrow to save them.
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Give the Widow Mine time, it just became playable, and I think once pros have played with it over Warhounds they'll find the balancing point for it.
Battle Cruisers still have 100 energy Yamato Cannons and we may see the Battle Cruiser damage buff return, the damage buff and then damage nerf seems like there's some kind of miscommuncication on the design team about where the Battle Cruiser's DPS should be.
I think they want to buff the Raven but they don't know how to buff it appropriately, I'm guessing they are going to reduce the build time to 40 seconds if they want the Raven to see more play because it's the only way it'll see more play without "over powering" Hunter Seeker Missiles.
I hate Battle Hellions, but whatever as long as they hold the line vs. Chargelots and don't fuck up Zergling balance. I'd prefer it if they just gave the 50% HP buff to Viking Assault Mode so you could use them for either chasing down Colossus or holding the line vs Zealots and over building Vikings wasn't as critical of a mistake.
Honestly, I'd just take having Reapers back and Widow Mines playable and call it a day at this point, Reaper play looks awesome right now vs every race.
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I am a Terran player and I don't want the Warhound, so thats good for me. I don't even want a new unit really, alot of people are suggesting to add the goliath. But I don't even want that! Terran mech is awesome as it is, the triadic power should just plainly come from Hellion, Tank and Thor. The power comes from the high amount of Siege tanks, the buffer (now) comes from the Battle Hellion and Thor to add in support as single target DPS and AA support (10 RANGE!)
Adding Goliath would overlap Viking and Thor. A lot peoples' argument is that, you need starport to get vikings! Give Factory an AA unit! Well, that's just how the game works. SC2 want you to make different types of unit from different buildings and tech tree. It is like saying, give us medic so we don't need starport to make bio healer.
So, now please fix widow mine blizzard.
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The BattleCruiser DPS was INSANE, seriously people. And the Raven could be called "OP" (And I am Terran)
Anyways let's wait, maybe they can re-work the WarHound to fit in the game
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I just wish Sky Terran was revamped, so there's a real lategame. Apart from that I'm fine since they ermoved the WH, I'll just wait for whatever they come up with to replace it (because let's be honest, battle hellion + widow mine combined are barely 1 new unit)
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On September 15 2012 21:27 Herect wrote: The Widow Mine is hard to use. You can't expect to master it in a few days. It is different form the Spider Mine, you can't spam in all over the map and hope it works. It has to be well placed, well Microed (proper target and please turnoff auto-attack) and often you'lol have to realocate and unburrow to save them.
This, this is something I cannot stress enough.
Turn off autocast on the Widow mine, people.
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On September 15 2012 21:41 Sogetsu wrote: The BattleCruiser DPS was INSANE, seriously people. And the Raven could be called "OP" (And I am Terran)
Anyways let's wait, maybe they can re-work the WarHound to fit in the game
I think it's totally fine for a tier 4 unit that costs 400/300, takes 6 supply and 1,5 minutes to build to do some really serious damage.
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On September 15 2012 21:41 Sogetsu wrote: The BattleCruiser DPS was INSANE, seriously people. And the Raven could be called "OP" (And I am Terran)
Anyways let's wait, maybe they can re-work the WarHound to fit in the game
At the vary least, buff air damage from 6->8.
It's just silly that the ground and air attack have the same animation/lasers but do different damage.
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i haven't seriously played sc2 since the beta, can someone fill me in as to what makes mech not viable?
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I don't want a new mech unit. There are already 4 units with necessary viking and probably ghost support. If this is not enough, then buff/ change the already existing ones.
The BC and Raven "fixes" are very disappointing though.
From here, it should be only a question of balance.
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On September 15 2012 22:08 kade wrote: i haven't seriously played sc2 since the beta, can someone fill me in as to what makes mech not viable?
Immortals + Chargelots + Blinkstalkers.
It would be interesting to see if it gets better if you remove one of the tree but atm thats not really realistic.
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idk..
Raven fix was expected. Maybe they will tweak it to lower damage and lower energycost. 100 energy was probably just some relic from some internal testings.
Mines will recieve at least a buff to 1 supply imho.
Not entirely sure if they readd a changed Warhound...I actually think they will if Battlehellion and a buffed mine is not enough to make mech viable in PvT.
Terran had very little holes in their race to begin with. The two biggest ones were mech in PvT especially and the Reaper. Both got buffed...so it's hard to justify a new unit/ability at this point. We probably have to wait some weeks to see how it pans out.
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I don't understand why would you be at all surprised. If you believe terran is poorly implemented right now then that's the case due to blizzards actions. Since HotS comes from the same developer the history is bound to repeat itself.
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As a Protoss player, I am sick of terrains winning about not being able to go mech against toss while they can against Zerg. In Wol, I can go air-toss against Zerg, but that will get decimated against Terran. And even with the recent changes introduced in Hots, it looks like that will stay the same vs. Terran bio because toss only really gains the tempest, which now has an anti-massive role making it useless against bio. Plus, in tvp, there are so many options for t. I've seen viable, bio, bio with tanks, banshee with raven and ghost, and even mech (people who stop whining about not being able to do it and instead work towards making it viable). For toss, there are really only two standards, that are very close to one another: deathball w/colossus, and deathball w/HT, or a combination of both. Sure, you can mess with the ratios of one unit to another, but it rarely ever changes the way you approach engagements. I love the way that terrans have different options that actually changes the way you approach the game, rather than just producing X to counter Y.
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If Blizzard simply adds the goliath and/or changes tanks to 2 supply, I'll be a super-happy terran camper .
Right now I'm still happy as I meched even in WoL so...
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Terran has been fucked since ghost nerf in WoL. HotS is just the topping on the cake seeing that nothing is changing besides terran maybe using a couple of widow mines.
Protoss have a spell to nullify the only thing that can help terrn win games (EMP and conc shells vs chargelots).
Vipers murder mech with not 1 but 2 spells.
TvT is going to be what ZvZ and PvP used to be with new reapers. All I can forsee for tvt is 1 base play as the player that expands, especially if its an fe, will just die to the player making reapers.
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On September 15 2012 22:55 LgNKami wrote: Terran has been fucked since ghost nerf in WoL. HotS is just the topping on the cake seeing that nothing is changing besides terran maybe using a couple of widow mines.
Protoss have a spell to nullify the only thing that can help terrn win games (EMP and conc shells vs chargelots).
Vipers murder mech with not 1 but 2 spells.
TvT is going to be what ZvZ and PvP used to be with new reapers. All I can forsee for tvt is 1 base play as the player that expands, especially if its an fe, will just die to the player making reapers.
The oracle shield is practically useless vs EMP...
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On September 15 2012 22:58 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2012 22:55 LgNKami wrote: Terran has been fucked since ghost nerf in WoL. HotS is just the topping on the cake seeing that nothing is changing besides terran maybe using a couple of widow mines.
Protoss have a spell to nullify the only thing that can help terrn win games (EMP and conc shells vs chargelots).
Vipers murder mech with not 1 but 2 spells.
TvT is going to be what ZvZ and PvP used to be with new reapers. All I can forsee for tvt is 1 base play as the player that expands, especially if its an fe, will just die to the player making reapers. The oracle shield is practically useless vs EMP... ...
(derp)
I thought the phase shield was an aoe thing. didnt know it targeted a single unit. MY B BRUH
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On September 15 2012 23:02 LgNKami wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2012 22:58 SarcasmMonster wrote:On September 15 2012 22:55 LgNKami wrote: Terran has been fucked since ghost nerf in WoL. HotS is just the topping on the cake seeing that nothing is changing besides terran maybe using a couple of widow mines.
Protoss have a spell to nullify the only thing that can help terrn win games (EMP and conc shells vs chargelots).
Vipers murder mech with not 1 but 2 spells.
TvT is going to be what ZvZ and PvP used to be with new reapers. All I can forsee for tvt is 1 base play as the player that expands, especially if its an fe, will just die to the player making reapers. The oracle shield is practically useless vs EMP... but it breaks emp...
Only the "anti-cloaking" effect. It still hits like a truck.
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The raven buff was incredibly too strong, please don´t whine about how you are disappointed in the expansion because it doesn´t overpower your race. :o
I'm trusting this is an attempt at creating the same sort of feeling of disappointment as protoss just had, that led to the latest protoss changes. I hope Blizzard sees through it and makes changes based on good game design principles instead of just continuously giving in to the most vocal negative opinions.
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United States4882 Posts
On September 15 2012 22:55 LgNKami wrote: Terran has been fucked since ghost nerf in WoL. HotS is just the topping on the cake seeing that nothing is changing besides terran maybe using a couple of widow mines.
Protoss have a spell to nullify the only thing that can help terrn win games (EMP and conc shells vs chargelots).
Vipers murder mech with not 1 but 2 spells.
TvT is going to be what ZvZ and PvP used to be with new reapers. All I can forsee for tvt is 1 base play as the player that expands, especially if its an fe, will just die to the player making reapers.
In terms of Phase Shield, I don't know how that's going to work...I think they're going to have to tweak that or remove it. Not because it's OP but because it's kind of...silly.
Vipers murder mech but we can all agree that battlehellions are awesome and, like firebats in BW, will end up becoming very useful against blinding cloud. If anything, I think the TvZ units balance against each other the best so far.
Also, 1rax FE into 3 rax is safe with micro and positioning against 2-rax reaper. I've seen both ForGG and LastShadow do this. Maybe with the combat awareness it might be a little more difficult, but I think the main change will be just putting a bunker down by each CC (which doesn't put you that far behind because your opponent made 2-rax reaper).
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>Totally agree warhound was bad idea.
>I liked BC little buff damage too
>Ghost cloak change is lame yeah and not more intuitive
>The Widow Mine Should stay to 2 supply ! It's not supposed to be mass, and it's cost effecient versus nearly all unit. It's already a really powerful unit !
>I agree with battle hellion >and reaper (but it can be too powerfull in tvt)
>Raven is already good for late, maybe just 25more hp or/and some speed.
>Maybe a new unit should be added but Terran has already equal or more units, possibility's (if we balance bc too), and upgrade than the other race.
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Terran QQing because they can't use mech in TvP without even trying the 2 new mech units... have you guys seen any PvX? is the same shit over and over again.
this is not about what race is OP or not, but denying that Terran is the most diverse and complete race is stupid, the other races have yet to catch up.
by the way, terran is getting the same number of new units as zerg.
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On September 15 2012 21:59 Grapefruit wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2012 21:41 Sogetsu wrote: The BattleCruiser DPS was INSANE, seriously people. And the Raven could be called "OP" (And I am Terran)
Anyways let's wait, maybe they can re-work the WarHound to fit in the game I think it's totally fine for a tier 4 unit that costs 400/300, takes 6 supply and 1,5 minutes to build to do some really serious damage.
Lol, Terrans players complain about BC? Just take a look at carrier
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United Kingdom12009 Posts
On September 15 2012 23:49 rpgalon wrote: terran QQing because they can't use mech in TvP without even trying the 2 new mech units... have you guys seen any PvX? is the same shit over and over again.
Ever heard of the stargate? Before you complain about Terrans complaining, how about you go build and use a stargate for anything that isn't cheese :p
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The are gonna have to come up with something really interesting for Terran or there is no reason to buy Hots just to get a HP buff on the hellion and a useless 2 supply mine. Let us hope there will be a new modified warhound.
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On September 15 2012 23:59 Aquila- wrote: The are gonna have to come up with something really interesting for Terran or there is no reason to buy Hots just to get a HP buff on the hellion and a useless 2 supply mine. Let us hope there will be a new modified warhound.
Agreed.
Putting balance aside, they just have to add something, purely from a marketing perspective. Not everybody browse teamliquid or are as hardcore players as most of the people here. The casual terran players wouldn't buy an expansion for a mine and a hp buff on the hellion.
I imagine it like this:
Protoss get superpowered tier 3 air unit with big range and lots of hp. They also get new base defences and a new harrassing and support unit. Zerg get a burrowing unit that makes unlimited waves of expendable units to swarm the opponent. They also get a flying spellcaster that can grab the most expensive units in the opponents army and can also help to bust through enemy defense.
And Terran gets a mine and hp buff on the hellion xD Oh and reaper hp regeneration LOL
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What? I didn't know those were bugs. And I was saying everywhere that they made T very interesting. Although with balance issues, every unit was useful. Now, not so much anymore.
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I wish Blizzard would just give Terran a Late Game so they could deal with the Protoss deathball and the Zerg deathball. Its all death balls. I understand that Terran is suppose to be powerful in the early-mid game. But with all the patches and fixes, and Blizzard straight out wanting longer macro games, Terran's early-mid games are disappearing and fast.
This is what Blizzard needs to address for Terran. O.K., so mech doesn't work against Protoss. Make it so bio can stand up to late game Protoss Archons, Colossus, High Templars. That's a lot of splash. And the Ghost with its nerfs is really a joke. It really is.
Its still very early BETA, and Blizzard will be making many more changes. I just hope they address more issues to make the puzzle work instead of working pieces in where they are not suppose to fit.
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United Kingdom14464 Posts
I'm switching from toss to Terran for HotS, so... no I was disapointed with the Raven nerf, and I would like something done with the BC, but in general I like Terran for HotS, Widow Mine is awesome (but needs some small buffs), battlehellions seems very useful and pretty damn cool, and if Blizz do go back to the small changes on sky terran then that'll just be the icing on the cake. My personal thoughts on what should happen to terran for HotS: Widow Mine is 1 supply, and gets like a 5 damage boost in terms of splash. Battle Hellion simply becomes unlocked when Armoury is made, all hellions at that point are able to transform. Raven gets its speed buff and maybe the change to HSM cost, though this could be too powerful. BC gets a buff to be 8 damage vs air and ground, imo that would be more interesting then simply making it better vs ground, for various reasons.
And thats it. A couple of small tweaks. Mech is better, Sky Terran is better, Bio is as good as ever (and is encouraged to do that awesome bio into raven style). But those aren't huge things, the fundamentals are there for Terran in HotS, I don't think it's nearly enough for everyone to worry about.
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For a few min when i read about the changes to BC and raven i started to belive that the devs finally had gotten their act together, just to read a few min later that the best changes they have done in ages was "bugs" lol ;D
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rudicing cost of ravens and upgrades and reducing build times of both is what i think they need to do, if they want to make 2HSM per raven they would need to lower the dmg a little but they really should make the changes to cost and built time no matter what, the problem with ravens isn't that they arent effective, it is the huge investment and the timesink that is required to get to that point in my opinion. Sure the broodlord transition is also long and expensive but it doesnt require totally committing to the transition at nearly such an early point, If you really want to make ravens work right now you need a few star ports with tech labs and that is just not somthing terrans can afford in most games, whearas zerg only needs to get to hive and morph 1 greater spire, not nearly as painful or risky for the zerg. If ravens built faster you could make it work with less star ports and you would see a faster return on your investment. Thats if they want to make the raven work well.
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I won't be playing hots beta until terran has a new unit/raven and bc are back to being useable/some big changes are made. Blizzard are taking the piss and it isn't particularly funny, all capped off with this retarded warhound/hellion change
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On September 15 2012 21:07 DemigodcelpH wrote: HotS = Heart of Terran Suffering
It's almost satirical that they would finally address the BC and the Raven and go "oops it was a bug".
Pretty much agree. That was the best Terran change that made lategame more manageable, especially TvZ, and all they have to say on it right now was that it's a bug...
That change alone made it feel like a new unit.
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It feels like zerg and protoss are getting tasty cakes, while I as a terran get some regular bread.
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On September 15 2012 21:35 MoonCricket wrote: Give the Widow Mine time, it just became playable, and I think once pros have played with it over Warhounds they'll find the balancing point for it.
Battle Cruisers still have 100 energy Yamato Cannons and we may see the Battle Cruiser damage buff return, the damage buff and then damage nerf seems like there's some kind of miscommuncication on the design team about where the Battle Cruiser's DPS should be.
I think they want to buff the Raven but they don't know how to buff it appropriately, I'm guessing they are going to reduce the build time to 40 seconds if they want the Raven to see more play because it's the only way it'll see more play without "over powering" Hunter Seeker Missiles.
I hate Battle Hellions, but whatever as long as they hold the line vs. Chargelots and don't fuck up Zergling balance. I'd prefer it if they just gave the 50% HP buff to Viking Assault Mode so you could use them for either chasing down Colossus or holding the line vs Zealots and over building Vikings wasn't as critical of a mistake.
Honestly, I'd just take having Reapers back and Widow Mines playable and call it a day at this point, Reaper play looks awesome right now vs every race.
The widow mine will never be playable with a supply cost. It just will not happen.
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On September 15 2012 23:05 Grumbels wrote: The raven buff was incredibly too strong, please don´t whine about how you are disappointed in the expansion because it doesn´t overpower your race. :o
I'm trusting this is an attempt at creating the same sort of feeling of disappointment as protoss just had, that led to the latest protoss changes. I hope Blizzard sees through it and makes changes based on good game design principles instead of just continuously giving in to the most vocal negative opinions.
No it wasn't too powerful. It was 1.5 weeks into testing, it turns out with everything powerful from the other two races, the raven change actually would have made a lot of sense.
The battle hellion was DEFINITELY no where near "too powerful" and they just nerfed that to smithereens in this last patch with armory prerequisite + an upgrade required...
Looking to be a repeat of Wings of liberty terran balancing so far.
On September 15 2012 23:49 rpgalon wrote: Terran QQing because they can't use mech in TvP without even trying the 2 new mech units... have you guys seen any PvX? is the same shit over and over again.
this is not about what race is OP or not, but denying that Terran is the most diverse and complete race is stupid, the other races have yet to catch up.
by the way, terran is getting the same number of new units as zerg.
Trust me, Terrans are trying. But everytime we try, a new cost is added on to "playing mech." They removed the warhound which is great...but then they randomly nerf the battle hellion...
You can't say "hey guys, we wanna see if mech is viable so eat your heart out and go mech! BTW, WE JUST NERFED ALL YOUR UNITS GLHF"
You see the problem? Every time mech shows signs of life, they shoot mech players in the foot. This battle hellion change was absolutely unnecessary, and on top of this the widow mine is something that literally does shoot Terran players in the foot because of the supply cost.
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On September 16 2012 02:50 avilo wrote: The battle hellion was DEFINITELY no where near "too powerful" and they just nerfed that to smithereens in this last patch with armory prerequisite + an upgrade required...
You can build BHs with just an armory built, you only need the upgrade to transform.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
Fast-hellion and Battle-hellion - both can be built without Armory, just from Factory and from Reactor.
Armory just allows to research upgrade at Tech-Lab, that allows to transform between those 2 modes.
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I don't understand how you all continually bitch about the historically most dominant race in SC2.
The game approaches a state of balance finally and you're all complaining because you can't get the easy wins with blanket emps, silly 1/1/1s or a pack of ghosts.
Now the lot of you are whining about the warhound's removal which if you're not blind (re:IEM post) was obviously necessary.
Now what lategame are you looking for? And be fair, it has to make sense in an RTS as offering a trade off and be combatable by the other races. Nixing some health of the thors and strike cannon in exchange for no energy? 1 Yamato max BCs? [Still don't understand why you can't throw some emps on there if you can make the transition] I understand that in the lategame powerunits of the other races are dealing decently with your MMM balls... yes that's finally when those armies /can/ effectively deal with those very mobile, high dps stim balls.
Jesus. It's like you guys have this angst because the race never suffered from being too weak competitively.
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On September 16 2012 03:13 Sabu113 wrote: I don't understand how you all continually bitch about the historically most dominant race in SC2.
The game approaches a state of balance finally and you're all complaining because you can't get the easy wins with blanket emps, silly 1/1/1s or a pack of ghosts.
Now the lot of you are whining about the warhound's removal which if you're not blind (re:IEM post) was obviously necessary.
Now what lategame are you looking for? And be fair, it has to make sense in an RTS as offering a trade off and be combatable by the other races. Nixing some health of the thors and strike cannon in exchange for no energy? 1 Yamato max BCs? [Still don't understand why you can't throw some emps on there if you can make the transition] I understand that in the lategame powerunits of the other races are dealing decently with your MMM balls... yes that's finally when those armies /can/ effectively deal with those very mobile, high dps stim balls.
Jesus. It's like you guys have this angst because the race never suffered from being too weak competitively.
Is this thread really the place for your rage comments? Terran players right now I am sure are feeling like protoss was feeling before the last round of changes.
We are left with a dysfunctional spider mine, the only useful lategame change for TvZ, the seeker missile energy change was hysterically an "accident" and unintentional...
So the only new unit right now viable from Terran is the battle hellion, and that has now been nerfed in the form of armory prerequisite + an upgrade at the tech lab. I think Terrans feel exactly like protoss had just felt to be honest. The funny thing is that raven change alone rounded out Terran lategame so well...it's just a shame right now it was not tested more during a beta...especially considering Terran's lategame in wings of liberty compared to now is almost exactly the same meanwhile Zerg/Protoss are getting things that improve their lategame...
So yes, there are legitimate concerns/complaints from Terran.
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I am more upbeat than ever, them removing the Warhound means they wont nerf other Terran stuff to compensate for that bullshit unit, it would have been horrible if they nerfed the race around that unit.
Instead they may rework the unit or introduce new abilities or even a new unit instead.
I was affraid the game would ship with the Warhound intact and that in the long run would have been bad for the race
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On September 15 2012 21:52 Crawdad wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2012 21:27 Herect wrote: The Widow Mine is hard to use. You can't expect to master it in a few days. It is different form the Spider Mine, you can't spam in all over the map and hope it works. It has to be well placed, well Microed (proper target and please turnoff auto-attack) and often you'lol have to realocate and unburrow to save them.
This, this is something I cannot stress enough. Turn off autocast on the Widow mine, people.
Exactly.
Who burrows banelings with auto unburrow? No one, that's who.
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I feel they neutered Reapers rather than buffed them. Self healing is simply...weird.
In the early game you can't really make use of it because the Reaper needs to be out of combat and wait, which just gives your opponent time to get Marauders/Roaches/Stalkers out. Mid and lategame you can have Medivacs if you need to heal them.
The building attack was removed, so a group of say 8 reapers (400/400) now can't snipe anything other than workers. Their base damage (from what I've read so far) has also been reduced, likely meaning they do not 2-shot lings anymore. Nitro Packs was removed, meaning Stalkers/Speed Roaches can always catch up to them.
The Reaper was fine after the change that killed 5rax Reaper. I'd rather have 40 seconds of build time and Nitro Packs not needing a Factory than this weird self-healing ability.
As for cliff viewing that was mentioned in patch #2...what does it really add? You can just scout with one Reaper ahead, or you can keep one Reaper at the bottom of a cliff and see if its get shot at.
Warhounds were just plain overpowered for their supply. You could get roughly 40, filling up the entire screen, each having more health than a tank. I'd rather see Siege Tanks going 150 minerals, 100 gas, 2 supply than having the Warhound. 40 tanks aren't as overpowered as 40 warhounds would be due to mobility, less health and having to siege up/out.
Widow Mines are not cost effective against anything other than a Warp Prism full of Templar. Instead of compensating for the lack of mobility that Mech has, it just weakens Mech due to reduction in supply and production time. Its production costs need to validate keeping some of them on the map or in your mineral, which currently is not case.
Battle Hellions are the one thing that is a decent improvement to help deal with mass Chargelot, not much more to it than that.
Mech also still lacks Anti-air that is not Thor based, I'd gladly trade the Warhound for the Goliath if it means I could have earlier AA from a Factory. The only other gripe I have is 250mm cannons and Thors still having energy. It is a near useless ability costing way too much energy and just making Feedback cut Thors in half.
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1 week into beta and the whining never ends. you have to laugh about it. save your moaning until the last week before release
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On September 16 2012 03:25 Topdoller wrote: 1 week into beta and the whining never ends. you have to laugh about it. save your moaning until the last week before release I've always believed procrastination is a bad thing. This would be no exception. Did you not read the patch notes? The devs read our feedback and changed units. They read the feedback and REMOVED the warhound.
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On September 16 2012 03:25 Thezzy wrote: Their base damage (from what I've read so far) has also been reduced, likely meaning they do not 2-shot lings anymore. Nitro Packs was removed, meaning Stalkers/Speed Roaches can always catch up to them.
Uhhh, their base damage is the same and Nitro packs is still in the game.
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Something that annoys me is that yeah, perhaps Blizzard can balance the Terrans out OK. But where are the cool new units? So far, we have slight overhauls of existing units (plus the widow mine).
I want something funky, like the Viper. Otherwise, where's the fun?
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On September 16 2012 03:58 kldfg wrote: Something that annoys me is that yeah, perhaps Blizzard can balance the Terrans out OK. But where are the cool new units? So far, we have slight overhauls of existing units (plus the widow mine).
I want something funky, like the Viper. Otherwise, where's the fun? As has been stated many times before, Terran got a TON of cool units in WoL. Easily more than the other races. Terran is simply not in need of new units as much as Zerg or Protoss in order to expand options. Rebalancing existing units is more productive.
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Canada10898 Posts
I wonder how much new things Terran needs really. Like, if they buffed the Tank damage and slowed it's rate of fire and had proper mines to create cheap, supply free minefields, do they need much more? Those 2 things would completely change the way Terran plays.
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I'm content with the changes as it does not effect me what-so-ever. I always pure bio some epic marine splitting is all I need from StarCraft tehehe. But Yes, I can understand where your coming from. I personally never knew about the Raven Buffs but I'm a little sad they decreased the speed of them? I always hated how slow they were. HSM at 100 energy would be awesome but might be too effective for early-game harass but if they get the speed buff once again I'll be going rine, medicvac raven for sure.
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i will be pleased, if they will make another buff to the mine, i don't want any new units, mines are fantastic for me
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Right now, I am kind of dissapointed. I just want Blizzard to make a tank based mech army viable, they do want mech but they seem to really hate tanks .
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FFS. I didn't realize that the BC damage "buff" was actually a "bug".
What the hell is going on? Why don't they put something that big in the balance patch notes!?
I still think that the Battlehellion and Widow Mine are cool and all but TBH, like the others; HOTS was looking like a great buy for me JUST because of the raven and BC buff. I was SO hyped to know that terran lategame was being addressed and then Blizzard just removed all of it.
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On September 16 2012 03:58 kldfg wrote: Something that annoys me is that yeah, perhaps Blizzard can balance the Terrans out OK. But where are the cool new units? So far, we have slight overhauls of existing units (plus the widow mine).
I want something funky, like the Viper. Otherwise, where's the fun?
Terran got 2 new units, maybe they are not as cool as the 2 new zerg units, but that we will see as the beta progresses. Also, Blizzard stated that Terran is the most complete race, you should not expect it to get the same number of stuff as the other 2 races.
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don't feel bad, protoss didn't get anything either.. all T needs is a siege tank buff and you would see a shift in the meta game
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On September 16 2012 04:11 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 03:58 kldfg wrote: Something that annoys me is that yeah, perhaps Blizzard can balance the Terrans out OK. But where are the cool new units? So far, we have slight overhauls of existing units (plus the widow mine).
I want something funky, like the Viper. Otherwise, where's the fun? As has been stated many times before, Terran got a TON of cool units in WoL. Easily more than the other races. Terran is simply not in need of new units as much as Zerg or Protoss in order to expand options. Rebalancing existing units is more productive.
What your not thinking about is, why would I spend money to buy an expansion that doesn't give my race anything new. Blizzard has to sell this game, the only real new unit for terran just got removed from the game. Why should I buy it???
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On September 16 2012 04:25 Falling wrote: I wonder how much new things Terran needs really. Like, if they buffed the Tank damage and slowed it's rate of fire and had proper mines to create cheap, supply free minefields, do they need much more? Those 2 things would completely change the way Terran plays.
That's all I really want for Terran but thats never going to happen. Terran doesn't need Warhounds and Battlehellions at all. They are like modern medicine, they hide the symptoms but don't fix the underlying problem behind them.
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tanks need a buff, its weird how they works in sc2, warhound is out now add the tank
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On September 16 2012 04:25 Falling wrote: I wonder how much new things Terran needs really. Like, if they buffed the Tank damage and slowed it's rate of fire and had proper mines to create cheap, supply free minefields, do they need much more? Those 2 things would completely change the way Terran plays.
I am kind of starting to agree... Maybe make the BH seem more like its own unit, and churn out a unit that places Widow mines, and you've got the illusion of enough new units to appease Terran players.
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I think it's interesting how the raven buff was completely unintentional yet every Terran was happy because we felt blizzard was finally addressing TvZ lategame or something that was lacking from Terran...instead we're just told it's a bug. What a let down.
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On September 16 2012 06:09 avilo wrote: I think it's interesting how the raven buff was completely unintentional yet every Terran was happy because we felt blizzard was finally addressing TvZ lategame or something that was lacking from Terran...instead we're just told it's a bug. What a let down.
It wouldn't solve your problems in late game anyway.
As for the BC nerf, the buff to 10 wasn't needed anyway. BC's are powerful vs ground as it is with 8 damage. The reason people don't use BC's aren't because they suck, it's because it's hard to tech to. You have to make 4+ starports and then get bc's. You also need ravens for PDD as that is incredibly powerful especially against zerg who tries mass corruptor PDD + BC with yamato is incredibly powerful. But again it's getting that composition while surviving which terrans are slowly figuring it out.
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On September 16 2012 03:13 Sabu113 wrote: I don't understand how you all continually bitch about the historically most dominant race in SC2.
The game approaches a state of balance finally and you're all complaining because you can't get the easy wins with blanket emps, silly 1/1/1s or a pack of ghosts.
Now the lot of you are whining about the warhound's removal which if you're not blind (re:IEM post) was obviously necessary.
Now what lategame are you looking for? And be fair, it has to make sense in an RTS as offering a trade off and be combatable by the other races. Nixing some health of the thors and strike cannon in exchange for no energy? 1 Yamato max BCs? [Still don't understand why you can't throw some emps on there if you can make the transition] I understand that in the lategame powerunits of the other races are dealing decently with your MMM balls... yes that's finally when those armies /can/ effectively deal with those very mobile, high dps stim balls.
Jesus. It's like you guys have this angst because the race never suffered from being too weak competitively.
There are not as many options as you think for terran against protoss. If both go FE then the protoss completely dictates the tech path for the terran. Its not like the protoss will go colossus or templar depending on the marine/marauder ratio. No, protoss takes which ever tech patch he likes, and the terran needs to find out fast and get vikings or ghost. The protoss decides.
For me it all comes down the the colossus. That unit has been ruining the game for protoss and the other races. It needs to be at its current state (balance wise) at the top level, but is supidly OP in the lower leagues were a terran needs to have vastly superior control to out-maneuver the protoss.
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On September 16 2012 06:15 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 06:09 avilo wrote: I think it's interesting how the raven buff was completely unintentional yet every Terran was happy because we felt blizzard was finally addressing TvZ lategame or something that was lacking from Terran...instead we're just told it's a bug. What a let down. It wouldn't solve your problems in late game anyway. As for the BC nerf, the buff to 10 wasn't needed anyway. BC's are powerful vs ground as it is with 8 damage. The reason people don't use BC's aren't because they suck, it's because it's hard to tech to. You have to make 4+ starports and then get bc's. You also need ravens for PDD as that is incredibly powerful especially against zerg who tries mass corruptor PDD + BC with yamato is incredibly powerful. But again it's getting that composition while surviving which terrans are slowly figuring it out.
The raven seeker missile energy changed quite a lot. It allowed you to make ravens earlier on without it being a gamble on whether you will have a seeker or not.
Just that alone changed an incredible amount of late game frustrations that occur right now in wings of liberty tvz. It felt like a new unit because it was no longer a flying paper weight. You didn't have to play a 1 hr long TvZ to make full use of the unit.
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On September 16 2012 00:44 Psychobabas wrote:
Putting balance aside, they just have to add something, purely from a marketing perspective. Not everybody browse teamliquid or are as hardcore players as most of the people here. The casual terran players wouldn't buy an expansion for a mine and a hp buff on the hellion. Actual casual players will buy it for the campaign. Just throwing that out there. I bought WoL because I loved RoC/FT, and trusted that Blizzard would have a fun campaign.
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On September 16 2012 06:50 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 06:15 blade55555 wrote:On September 16 2012 06:09 avilo wrote: I think it's interesting how the raven buff was completely unintentional yet every Terran was happy because we felt blizzard was finally addressing TvZ lategame or something that was lacking from Terran...instead we're just told it's a bug. What a let down. It wouldn't solve your problems in late game anyway. As for the BC nerf, the buff to 10 wasn't needed anyway. BC's are powerful vs ground as it is with 8 damage. The reason people don't use BC's aren't because they suck, it's because it's hard to tech to. You have to make 4+ starports and then get bc's. You also need ravens for PDD as that is incredibly powerful especially against zerg who tries mass corruptor PDD + BC with yamato is incredibly powerful. But again it's getting that composition while surviving which terrans are slowly figuring it out. The raven seeker missile energy changed quite a lot. It allowed you to make ravens earlier on without it being a gamble on whether you will have a seeker or not. Just that alone changed an incredible amount of late game frustrations that occur right now in wings of liberty tvz. It felt like a new unit because it was no longer a flying paper weight. You didn't have to play a 1 hr long TvZ to make full use of the unit. Of course terran players liked the raven change, they would never have to lose a late game fight again. Zerg players didn't like the change so much on the other hand. Seeker missile with 100 energy is just Snipe 2.0, free damage in late game so that terran can turtle behind planetaries and win any war of attrition.
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yes i am disappointed, the mine is garbage in its current form, and the warhound gets axed for reasons that do not seem to apply to the other races.
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terran need a way to deal with both late game toss and zerg. before, I hoped mech would solve those problems but right now I would take anything blizzard would give me, I dont even care anymore that TvP is 1 dimensional repeatitve match that every one is doing the same thing every game. If by the end of the beta terran wouldnt be viable late game , I honstley consider not getting HOTS, because how it is right now , the game is frustrating and not fun . I realy hope someone from blizzard would read this post and will do something about it , after all , they need my money.
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Since i have gotten several maynard slides with 2 widow mines waiting in perfect distance and got a few ling runbys with it on chokepoints, battle hellions just being the tank needed for mech (Vikings without armored status on ground would have done the exact same, without making chargelots and lings super useless) and since Yamato is totally op now with 100 energy. I am all hyped for HotS, the sad part is that BC fights will not last longer then 6 seconds now.
Sad for the Raven though (remove the speed buff of the missile and keep the 100 energy!) and why did people expected the damage buff of the bc to actually make it through ? You must have forgotten the time, where you went fast bc because nothing on the ground could beat them and then you just won (till idra found out you can kite them with queens on creep). Anti air from the ground never got a buff except the spore, but the bc got faster. So why should the bc suddenly be not overpowered with the old damage.
PS: my favorite HotS move against zerg is to have forgotten to lift one supply depot of my wall inviting lings in to do damage. Mines are pretty neat before hitting 200 supply, even then they are okay. But getting more then 4 is really risky. Showing them alone makes the opponent paranoid.
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Northern Ireland20421 Posts
I think there's a delicate balancing act here. Terran have it tough lategame vs both Zerg and Protoss, but also have the most dynamic, varied playstyle in terms of options open to them, along with a great mirror matchup.
I do think they need a replacement of some kind for the warhound, indeed I'd imagine they're working on ideas to accomplish this as now. Terran to me feels the best designed, most 'complete' race in WoL, albeit it's fucking hard to play.
Tis a tough one
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On September 16 2012 08:46 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 06:50 avilo wrote:On September 16 2012 06:15 blade55555 wrote:On September 16 2012 06:09 avilo wrote: I think it's interesting how the raven buff was completely unintentional yet every Terran was happy because we felt blizzard was finally addressing TvZ lategame or something that was lacking from Terran...instead we're just told it's a bug. What a let down. It wouldn't solve your problems in late game anyway. As for the BC nerf, the buff to 10 wasn't needed anyway. BC's are powerful vs ground as it is with 8 damage. The reason people don't use BC's aren't because they suck, it's because it's hard to tech to. You have to make 4+ starports and then get bc's. You also need ravens for PDD as that is incredibly powerful especially against zerg who tries mass corruptor PDD + BC with yamato is incredibly powerful. But again it's getting that composition while surviving which terrans are slowly figuring it out. The raven seeker missile energy changed quite a lot. It allowed you to make ravens earlier on without it being a gamble on whether you will have a seeker or not. Just that alone changed an incredible amount of late game frustrations that occur right now in wings of liberty tvz. It felt like a new unit because it was no longer a flying paper weight. You didn't have to play a 1 hr long TvZ to make full use of the unit. Of course terran players liked the raven change, they would never have to lose a late game fight again. Zerg players didn't like the change so much on the other hand. Seeker missile with 100 energy is just Snipe 2.0, free damage in late game so that terran can turtle behind planetaries and win any war of attrition.
Zerg players have a huge advantage right now in wings of liberty ZvT lategame. Of course Terrans liked the raven change. Of course Zergs dislike it, when you get a free meal for so long and then you're told you have to work for that meal...yeah.
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On September 16 2012 11:38 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 08:46 Grumbels wrote:On September 16 2012 06:50 avilo wrote:On September 16 2012 06:15 blade55555 wrote:On September 16 2012 06:09 avilo wrote: I think it's interesting how the raven buff was completely unintentional yet every Terran was happy because we felt blizzard was finally addressing TvZ lategame or something that was lacking from Terran...instead we're just told it's a bug. What a let down. It wouldn't solve your problems in late game anyway. As for the BC nerf, the buff to 10 wasn't needed anyway. BC's are powerful vs ground as it is with 8 damage. The reason people don't use BC's aren't because they suck, it's because it's hard to tech to. You have to make 4+ starports and then get bc's. You also need ravens for PDD as that is incredibly powerful especially against zerg who tries mass corruptor PDD + BC with yamato is incredibly powerful. But again it's getting that composition while surviving which terrans are slowly figuring it out. The raven seeker missile energy changed quite a lot. It allowed you to make ravens earlier on without it being a gamble on whether you will have a seeker or not. Just that alone changed an incredible amount of late game frustrations that occur right now in wings of liberty tvz. It felt like a new unit because it was no longer a flying paper weight. You didn't have to play a 1 hr long TvZ to make full use of the unit. Of course terran players liked the raven change, they would never have to lose a late game fight again. Zerg players didn't like the change so much on the other hand. Seeker missile with 100 energy is just Snipe 2.0, free damage in late game so that terran can turtle behind planetaries and win any war of attrition. Zerg players have a huge advantage right now in wings of liberty ZvT lategame. Of course Terrans liked the raven change. Of course Zergs dislike it, when you get a free meal for so long and then you're told you have to work for that meal...yeah.
Oh comon, it's not a "huge" advantage.
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To be honest, I think that a lot of Terran players are confused by their own new units. I see a lot of people say that the BHs require an upgrade now, which is not true. They can be built straight-up from the Factory after an Armory is on the field. And I also see a lot of people say that Widow mines can be neutralized by running in cheap units, which is not true if you micro your mines.
I had an interesting idea, though. Honestly, the Widow mine is just not working because it becomes dead supply unless you literally burrow it under the feet of an advancing army, which goes contrary to its intended role of map coverage. But if you use them as intended, that's two supply deducted from your army and not doing anything for extended periods of time. Now, what if you could easily place the Widow mine where you KNOW your enemy is GOING to be, but were unable to place it where your enemy already IS? My idea is to make it like the Nydus worm... As long as you have vision, you should be able to drop a Widow mine on the field. Then, increase its burrow time (maybe double it) and nerf its health so that it is useless if you try to abuse it (because the enemy will just focus it down before it can burrow). Obviously, it wouldn't make much sense as a Factory unit, so perhaps it would be better suited at the Ghost Academy, a building which already drops "assets" on the map. And because the drop time would presumably be instant, the mines should have a preliminary build time, where Widow mines are "stored" at the Academy (or wherever) once they're built.
Good idea? xD
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On September 16 2012 07:00 Bombadil819 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 00:44 Psychobabas wrote:
Putting balance aside, they just have to add something, purely from a marketing perspective. Not everybody browse teamliquid or are as hardcore players as most of the people here. The casual terran players wouldn't buy an expansion for a mine and a hp buff on the hellion. Actual casual players will buy it for the campaign. Just throwing that out there. I bought WoL because I loved RoC/FT, and trusted that Blizzard would have a fun campaign.
Agreed, terran players gotta stop complaining, they already got over 1 whole year of complete tournament dominance until Blizzard forced it to change, its time for a BETTER game, which means the other races need their actual options.
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On September 16 2012 11:38 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 08:46 Grumbels wrote:On September 16 2012 06:50 avilo wrote:On September 16 2012 06:15 blade55555 wrote:On September 16 2012 06:09 avilo wrote: I think it's interesting how the raven buff was completely unintentional yet every Terran was happy because we felt blizzard was finally addressing TvZ lategame or something that was lacking from Terran...instead we're just told it's a bug. What a let down. It wouldn't solve your problems in late game anyway. As for the BC nerf, the buff to 10 wasn't needed anyway. BC's are powerful vs ground as it is with 8 damage. The reason people don't use BC's aren't because they suck, it's because it's hard to tech to. You have to make 4+ starports and then get bc's. You also need ravens for PDD as that is incredibly powerful especially against zerg who tries mass corruptor PDD + BC with yamato is incredibly powerful. But again it's getting that composition while surviving which terrans are slowly figuring it out. The raven seeker missile energy changed quite a lot. It allowed you to make ravens earlier on without it being a gamble on whether you will have a seeker or not. Just that alone changed an incredible amount of late game frustrations that occur right now in wings of liberty tvz. It felt like a new unit because it was no longer a flying paper weight. You didn't have to play a 1 hr long TvZ to make full use of the unit. Of course terran players liked the raven change, they would never have to lose a late game fight again. Zerg players didn't like the change so much on the other hand. Seeker missile with 100 energy is just Snipe 2.0, free damage in late game so that terran can turtle behind planetaries and win any war of attrition. Zerg players have a huge advantage right now in wings of liberty ZvT lategame. Of course Terrans liked the raven change. Of course Zergs dislike it, when you get a free meal for so long and then you're told you have to work for that meal...yeah.
You do know the history of terran in WoL right? Or are you just another sad drama queen who sucks at the game and tries to make up history to work with your "arguements". Incase you need a refresher, terran as a race has had the luxury of the EASIEST metagames in Starcraft 2 history that has won them multiple GSLs etc etc. Even Polt admitted it after he won Super Tournament. So please do everyone a favour and stop crying.
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On September 16 2012 05:06 Endymion wrote: don't feel bad, protoss didn't get anything either.. all T needs is a siege tank buff and you would see a shift in the meta game
I've been thinking the same thing for a long time. I wish they would give the tank some much needed love instead of adding something like the warhound to compensate for the its weakness.
Battle hellion was much needed though and a very welcomed addition.
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This thread is just basically balance whine Terran QQ... If you think you got the short end of the stick, look at Protoss
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On September 16 2012 02:50 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2012 23:05 Grumbels wrote: The raven buff was incredibly too strong, please don´t whine about how you are disappointed in the expansion because it doesn´t overpower your race. :o
I'm trusting this is an attempt at creating the same sort of feeling of disappointment as protoss just had, that led to the latest protoss changes. I hope Blizzard sees through it and makes changes based on good game design principles instead of just continuously giving in to the most vocal negative opinions. No it wasn't too powerful. It was 1.5 weeks into testing, it turns out with everything powerful from the other two races, the raven change actually would have made a lot of sense. The battle hellion was DEFINITELY no where near "too powerful" and they just nerfed that to smithereens in this last patch with armory prerequisite + an upgrade required... Looking to be a repeat of Wings of liberty terran balancing so far. Show nested quote +On September 15 2012 23:49 rpgalon wrote: Terran QQing because they can't use mech in TvP without even trying the 2 new mech units... have you guys seen any PvX? is the same shit over and over again.
this is not about what race is OP or not, but denying that Terran is the most diverse and complete race is stupid, the other races have yet to catch up.
by the way, terran is getting the same number of new units as zerg. Trust me, Terrans are trying. But everytime we try, a new cost is added on to "playing mech." They removed the warhound which is great...but then they randomly nerf the battle hellion... You can't say "hey guys, we wanna see if mech is viable so eat your heart out and go mech! BTW, WE JUST NERFED ALL YOUR UNITS GLHF" You see the problem? Every time mech shows signs of life, they shoot mech players in the foot. This battle hellion change was absolutely unnecessary, and on top of this the widow mine is something that literally does shoot Terran players in the foot because of the supply cost.
I play both Terran and Zerg, and I can tell you from both sides of the match up that the Battle Hellions were completely OP, because it was impossible to hold Battle Hellions with Queens, Zerglings and Banelings. By allowing players to freely change from Hellions to Battle Hellions, they gave Terrans a rapid, durable assault unit vs Zerg that forced them to build Roaches or lose, which allowed Terrans to build Marauders, research Stimpack, pull SCVs and just kill you outright. People were too busy playing around with OP Warhounds to notice how OP Battle Hellions were vs Zerg, but 100 mineral Firebats that can be produced 2 at a time from a Reactor and repaired with SCVs are totally bullshit and the Battle Hellion is just another example of a poorly designed, and not a poorly balanced, unit.
They didn't nerf every unit, Reapers continue to be buffed and you can now play the Widow Mine from the Factory without an Armory, try playing with the Widow Mine and write constructive feedback for why it costs too much supply and have it reduced to 1. And please don't even try to tell me people wont play the Widow Mine because it costs supply, because it literally 1 shots Mutalisks and Vipers and is a complete pain in the ass for Zerg to play against.
Balance isn't an over night issue and Blizzard is taking the right steps to improve the health of the game, the health of the game doesn't necessarily entail adding new units to every race just because you want the "new shiny" that everyone else gets. Buffing old units into playability is almost just as good as adding new units, and if Blizzard can get the Reaper, Ghost, Thor, Widow Mine, Raven and Battle Cruiser into a good place that's probably all they need to.
Like, if I had to "balance" Terran right now,
Battle Cruiser: Increase Air to Air damage to 8, reduce Yamato Cannon energy to 100 Raven: Increase movement speed to 2.75, reduce build time to 40 seconds. Viking: Vikings receive +50% health in assault mode Thors: Remove energy bar Widow Mines: No longer target air, reduce supply to 1 Ghosts: Remove Snipe, replace with Irradiate, Battle Hellions: Removed
Ravens can be produced faster in order to mass them and accumulate energy vs Zerg end game and they can be produced faster in order to deal with Cloaked threats and Creep Tumors cost efficiently without Scans. Vikings become the meat shields of Tanks, giving them dual purpose in TvP as anti-Colossus in the air and anti Zealot on the ground. Thors are now playable in TvP without being hard countered by High Templar. Widow Mines should be decent at controlling space and striking fear into the minds of players everywhere. Ghosts are back as an end game TvZ weapon vs Zerg death balls and Irradiate is the perfect anti deathball spell by design because it forces the splitting of units.
There are so many, very minor changes you can do to the current units to make them playable without effecting their immediate power level or the early metagame as a whole.
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On September 16 2012 16:09 GhostOwl wrote: This thread is just basically balance whine Terran QQ... If you think you got the short end of the stick, look at Protoss Troll detected.
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I was so excited when I first heard about the beta.
Warhound: A core mech unit that doesn't require "set up" time and isn't just dead when caught not set up. Widow Mines: a beastly little bomb that can wreck almost any non-massive unit Raves: Faster, cheaper missles BattleCruisers: Cheaper Yamato, damage buff Reapers: Combat healing allowing them to be used more than once.
All in all it sounded like terran was finally going to get some love after all those nerfs. We get one nudge in teh early game and several in teh late, justwhat we needed.
but then...
Warhound: gone Ravens: Energy change was a bug BattelCruisers: Ooops, damage nerfed Widowmines: expensive as hell for minimum damage, and TWO SUPPLY /rage Reapers...are actually still good.
So, looking at it like this
Protoss gets teh carreir AND the tempest plus an oracle that harasses mineral lines, spies, and counters infestors Zerg get the viper to shorten enmy range and pull apart positions as well as the swarm host to make an endless free army AND ultralisks that can burrow charge ffs...
And terran gets the reaper back out of the dark abyss it had been banished to, Maybe. I sense nerfs incoming.
So OP, yeah, I am very disappointed with HotS
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I enjoy reading ppl's comments to the Beta (I am suspending judgement until they come further in the development in terms of mech etc). Skyterran I am dissapointed...I don't understand why Raven and BC were nerfed? Terran needs a viable late game unit, and then everything is fine actually. Terran is known to be strong early-mid game, we don't need more shit. It's late game that there are no obvious unit compositions to play around with. I find that other races have well established unit comps that require limited micro, whereas terran are stuck on tier 1-2,5 units all game long which require more micro simply because they aren't that good as the game goes on.
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On September 16 2012 16:55 Ironsights wrote: I was so excited when I first heard about the beta.
Warhound: A core mech unit that doesn't require "set up" time and isn't just dead when caught not set up. Widow Mines: a beastly little bomb that can wreck almost any non-massive unit Raves: Faster, cheaper missles BattleCruisers: Cheaper Yamato, damage buff Reapers: Combat healing allowing them to be used more than once.
All in all it sounded like terran was finally going to get some love after all those nerfs. We get one nudge in teh early game and several in teh late, justwhat we needed.
but then...
Warhound: gone Ravens: Energy change was a bug BattelCruisers: Ooops, damage nerfed Widowmines: expensive as hell for minimum damage, and TWO SUPPLY /rage Reapers...are actually still good.
So, looking at it like this
Protoss gets teh carreir AND the tempest plus an oracle that harasses mineral lines, spies, and counters infestors Zerg get the viper to shorten enmy range and pull apart positions as well as the swarm host to make an endless free army AND ultralisks that can burrow charge ffs...
And terran gets the reaper back out of the dark abyss it had been banished to, Maybe. I sense nerfs incoming.
So OP, yeah, I am very disappointed with HotS Hahaha well put I am excited about the carrier tho. Finally blizz open their eyes. Now if only blizz would buff raven/BC it would make for some FANTASTIC late game play....
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On September 16 2012 16:34 MoonCricket wrote: Like, if I had to "balance" Terran right now,
Viking: Vikings receive +50% health in assault mode Battle Hellions: Removed
I assume that you're trying to replace the BH with the ground Viking, in terms of having an answer to Chargelots, but if you remember WoL beta, you'll know that such an extreme buff to Vikings would be easily abused. I don't want a repeat of that, to be honest, but maybe there could be some middle ground? I mean, +25% health (156 health total) would make it a bit more reasonable. Even then, Blizzard clearly wants to stress the BH as Terran's "counter" for Chargelots, and I'm certain that Terran players would complain if they lost ANOTHER "new unit". It's tricky.
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Biggest problem with mech TvP was surviving the early pressure and the mass chargelot endgame. With battle-hellion both of these things are fixed, or at least mech is way better off. I wouldn't even want to see another mech unit, but I would like a buff to the tank again. Perhaps even lower supply so we could see tanklines again, with how HotS works right now you'll have to actually split tanks or else you'll just get destroyed.
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On September 16 2012 16:58 SoniC_eu wrote: I enjoy reading ppl's comments to the Beta (I am suspending judgement until they come further in the development in terms of mech etc). Skyterran I am dissapointed...I don't understand why Raven and BC were nerfed? Terran needs a viable late game unit, and then everything is fine actually. Terran is known to be strong early-mid game, we don't need more shit. It's late game that there are no obvious unit compositions to play around with. I find that other races have well established unit comps that require limited micro, whereas terran are stuck on tier 1-2,5 units all game long which require more micro simply because they aren't that good as the game goes on.
There's a reason for that, Marines are better than Zerglings or Zealots at every point in the game, it's like the fundamental design elements of your race to be able to use your Marines from start to finish.
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On September 15 2012 22:43 lschiss16 wrote: As a Protoss player, I am sick of terrains winning about not being able to go mech against toss while they can against Zerg. In Wol, I can go air-toss against Zerg, but that will get decimated against Terran. And even with the recent changes introduced in Hots, it looks like that will stay the same vs. Terran bio because toss only really gains the tempest, which now has an anti-massive role making it useless against bio. Plus, in tvp, there are so many options for t. I've seen viable, bio, bio with tanks, banshee with raven and ghost, and even mech (people who stop whining about not being able to do it and instead work towards making it viable). For toss, there are really only two standards, that are very close to one another: deathball w/colossus, and deathball w/HT, or a combination of both. Sure, you can mess with the ratios of one unit to another, but it rarely ever changes the way you approach engagements. I love the way that terrans have different options that actually changes the way you approach the game, rather than just producing X to counter Y.
Here's the thing though. Air-Toss works great against a Meching Terran.
If Terran ONLY is able to use Bio against Protoss, then Protoss will never be able to go Air vs Terran.
It's in Protoss players best interest to help make Mech a viable option, because when Terrans start using that option it opens up the Stargate as a viable counter measure fostering new dynamics of the match up.
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On September 16 2012 17:29 Vindicare605 wrote: Here's the thing though. Air-Toss works great against a Meching Terran.
If Terran ONLY is able to use Bio against Protoss, then Protoss will never be able to go Air vs Terran.
It's in Protoss players best interest to help make Mech a viable option, because when Terrans start using that option it opens up the Stargate as a viable counter measure fostering new dynamics of the match up.
I have to agree here. We want the Carrier to stay, and as long as mech is viable in TvP, it WILL stay.
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On September 16 2012 16:55 Ironsights wrote: I was so excited when I first heard about the beta.
Warhound: A core mech unit that doesn't require "set up" time and isn't just dead when caught not set up. Widow Mines: a beastly little bomb that can wreck almost any non-massive unit Raves: Faster, cheaper missles BattleCruisers: Cheaper Yamato, damage buff Reapers: Combat healing allowing them to be used more than once.
All in all it sounded like terran was finally going to get some love after all those nerfs. We get one nudge in teh early game and several in teh late, justwhat we needed.
but then...
Warhound: gone Ravens: Energy change was a bug BattelCruisers: Ooops, damage nerfed Widowmines: expensive as hell for minimum damage, and TWO SUPPLY /rage Reapers...are actually still good.
So, looking at it like this
Protoss gets teh carreir AND the tempest plus an oracle that harasses mineral lines, spies, and counters infestors Zerg get the viper to shorten enmy range and pull apart positions as well as the swarm host to make an endless free army AND ultralisks that can burrow charge ffs...
And terran gets the reaper back out of the dark abyss it had been banished to, Maybe. I sense nerfs incoming.
So OP, yeah, I am very disappointed with HotS
Warhound was a stupid unit that was INCREDIBLY overpowered and added no interesting gameplay elements whatsoever. So it HAD to be removed.
Widow Mines were so incredibly underused in the first part of the beta because all Terran players did was mass Warhounds and win with them. When Terrans start using Widow Mines they'll figure out for sure whether 2 supply is too expensive and how better to balance them, or they'll figure out that they're actually really good and start winning with them.
No one was testing the Widow Mine though because all anyone cared about was getting cheap and easy wins with the stupid Warhound. Now that it's gone, Terrans can start using and Blizzard can start actually focusing their balance on the Widow Mine.
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On September 16 2012 17:12 MoonCricket wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 16:58 SoniC_eu wrote: I enjoy reading ppl's comments to the Beta (I am suspending judgement until they come further in the development in terms of mech etc). Skyterran I am dissapointed...I don't understand why Raven and BC were nerfed? Terran needs a viable late game unit, and then everything is fine actually. Terran is known to be strong early-mid game, we don't need more shit. It's late game that there are no obvious unit compositions to play around with. I find that other races have well established unit comps that require limited micro, whereas terran are stuck on tier 1-2,5 units all game long which require more micro simply because they aren't that good as the game goes on.
There's a reason for that, Marines are better than Zerglings or Zealots at every point in the game, it's like the fundamental design elements of your race to be able to use your Marines from start to finish. Chargelots are pretty fucking fantastic with upgrades. So are zerglings with adrenal glands. Well I can tell you it's not fun facing infestor BL/HT Colossus vs. marines. Marines aren't that useful late game. After midgame, if you make marines you had better have some godlike micro (ie. no one really makes marines late game. That's cos they suck in late game. )
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Zerglings and Zealots aren't core units in the sense that Marines are core units, they're supplimentary units for higher tech units like Infestors or Archons where you can literally build your whole army around the Marines. Zerglings and Zealots are stepping stone units to higher tech units that still serve a role in late game compositions, where the higher tech units in the Terran army are literally built around supporting the Marine, from Marauders, Ghosts, Hellions, Siege Tanks, Medivacs and Vikings.
Marines are made from start to finish in about every match up, I don't really know what you're talking about there.
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"Any other Terrans really displeased with HotS?"
Why is it none of these questions existed before removal of the warhound? Like seriously it's gone from absoloutely not a peep from Terran players to maximum QQ (the battlenet forums are insane) of course Blizzard are going to put something back in to replace the unit, for fucks sake.
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Warhound = Goliath.
Fixed.
If you want something to break siege lines on TvT, give more range to the thor special ability, so they can do something useful stunning the tanks (weaken it's damage). That would work against inmortals too.
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On September 16 2012 17:55 MoonCricket wrote: Zerglings and Zealots aren't core units in the sense that Marines are core units, they're supplimentary units for higher tech units like Infestors or Archons where you can literally build your whole army around the Marines. Zerglings and Zealots are stepping stone units to higher tech units that still serve a role in late game compositions, where the higher tech units in the Terran army are literally built around supporting the Marine, from Marauders, Ghosts, Hellions, Siege Tanks, Medivacs and Vikings.
Marines are made from start to finish in about every match up, I don't really know what you're talking about there.
That's how the game works now, yes because of how weak the other two tech paths are for Terran.
Terran works very differently from Protoss and Zerg in that the race's unit compositions are all based around a particular production structure, (Barracks, Factory, Starport) while using support units from the other two.
Marine, Marauder, Medivac, Viking, Ghost
Marine, Tank, Marauder, Thor, Viking, Medivac,
Hellion, Tank, Thor, Viking, Banshee, Raven
Viking, Raven, Banshee, Battlecruiser, Ghost.
etc.
Protoss Robotics tech isn't meant to be an individual entity the way the factory is, all units that are produced with it are SUPPOSED to complement Gateway units by design. This is one of the main reasons why all Protoss ground units share upgrades, while Terran upgrades are split into whatever production structure they come from.
Zerg production works in more linear tiers, Hatchery Tech, Lair tech, Hive tech, with Zerglings being the catch all mineral dump for the race. (They aren't meant to be overly cost effective, they're meant to be expendable and easily replaceable cannon fodder that support the race's larger more powerful tech units.)
This all goes back to why the Marine functions the way it does, and why it appears to be better than the tier 1 units of the other races.
It's designed to be a core unit, while the Zealot and Zergling are designed to be complimentary. The units all serve different roles.
The problem in Wings of Liberty however, and the reason why Marines are overused is because Factory and Starport unit combinations suffer from a lot of problems that Barracks based armies don't suffer from, the most egregious of these being cost efficiency.
This is why Mech (Factory based play) is being so heavily focused on in HoTS. If it becomes a viable alternative, than the Marine becomes less used and more counter options versus Terran open up that Marines normally invalidate. (Such as Stargate tech for Protoss)
You don't need to worry about buffing factory based play because you're worried they'll somehow make Marines even more powerful because Terran production doesn't work that way. Buffing Factory or Starport units is actually in a lot of ways an indirect nerf to Marines because if Terrans start to focus on those other unit combinations as they become more viable, they'll naturally make fewer Marines.
This is very different from Zerg or Protoss who will literally ALWAYS be making Zealots or Zerglings, regardless of what their core unit combination is.
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United Kingdom12009 Posts
On September 16 2012 18:07 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 17:55 MoonCricket wrote: Zerglings and Zealots aren't core units in the sense that Marines are core units, they're supplimentary units for higher tech units like Infestors or Archons where you can literally build your whole army around the Marines. Zerglings and Zealots are stepping stone units to higher tech units that still serve a role in late game compositions, where the higher tech units in the Terran army are literally built around supporting the Marine, from Marauders, Ghosts, Hellions, Siege Tanks, Medivacs and Vikings.
Marines are made from start to finish in about every match up, I don't really know what you're talking about there.
That's how the game works now, yes because of how weak the other two tech paths are for Terran. Terran works very differently from Protoss and Zerg in that the race's unit compositions are all based around a particular production structure, (Barracks, Factory, Starport) while using support units from the other two. Marine, Marauder, Medivac, Viking, Ghost Marine, Tank, Marauder, Thor, Viking, Medivac, Hellion, Tank, Thor, Viking, Banshee, Raven Viking, Raven, Banshee, Battlecruiser, Ghost. etc. Protoss Robotics tech isn't meant to be an individual entity the way the factory is, all units that are produced with it are SUPPOSED to complement Gateway units by design. This is one of the main reasons why all Protoss ground units share upgrades, while Terran upgrades are split into whatever production structure they come from. Zerg production works in more linear tiers, Hatchery Tech, Lair tech, Hive tech, with Zerglings being the catch all mineral dump for the race. (They aren't meant to be overly cost effective, they're meant to be expendable and easily replaceable cannon fodder that support the race's larger more powerful tech units.) This all goes back to why the Marine functions the way it does, and why it appears to be better than the tier 1 units of the other races. It's designed to be a core unit, while the Zealot and Zergling are designed to be complimentary. The units all serve different roles. The problem in Wings of Liberty however, and the reason why Marines are overused is because Factory and Starport unit combinations suffer from a lot of problems that Barracks based armies don't suffer from, the most egregious of these being cost efficiency. This is why Mech (Factory based play) is being so heavily focused on in HoTS. If it becomes a viable alternative, than the Marine becomes less used and more counter options versus Terran open up that Marines normally invalidate. (Such as Stargate tech for Protoss) You don't need to worry about buffing factory based play because you're worried they'll somehow make Marines even more powerful because Terran production doesn't work that way. Buffing Factory or Starport units is actually in a lot of ways an indirect nerf to Marines because if Terrans start to focus on those other unit combinations as they become more viable, they'll naturally make fewer Marines. This is very different from Zerg or Protoss who will literally ALWAYS be making Zealots or Zerglings, regardless of what their core unit combination is.
This post basically explains why mech play needs to be viable. It opens up soo many more options to the other races that are just not viable when there's a lot of marines. Muta play for zerg, Skytoss and Carriers. It'll branch out the game sooo much more than we have already.
Sure Bio is exciting to watch in TvP, but I'd love for their to be an alternative. Bio/Mech works in both TvT and TvZ, why can't we have it in TvP to mix things up? It means Terrans who don't have Taeja micro can play a style to fit them. I mean I play mech in TvP in WoL, but it's soo much harder than anything.
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On September 16 2012 17:55 MoonCricket wrote: Zerglings and Zealots aren't core units in the sense that Marines are core units, they're supplimentary units for higher tech units like Infestors or Archons where you can literally build your whole army around the Marines. Zerglings and Zealots are stepping stone units to higher tech units that still serve a role in late game compositions, where the higher tech units in the Terran army are literally built around supporting the Marine, from Marauders, Ghosts, Hellions, Siege Tanks, Medivacs and Vikings.
Marines are made from start to finish in about every match up, I don't really know what you're talking about there.
I think the right word would be "must". Terran must build their whole army around the marine. Big difference.
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On September 16 2012 17:55 MoonCricket wrote: Zerglings and Zealots aren't core units in the sense that Marines are core units, they're supplimentary units for higher tech units like Infestors or Archons where you can literally build your whole army around the Marines. Zerglings and Zealots are stepping stone units to higher tech units that still serve a role in late game compositions, where the higher tech units in the Terran army are literally built around supporting the Marine, from Marauders, Ghosts, Hellions, Siege Tanks, Medivacs and Vikings.
Marines are made from start to finish in about every match up, I don't really know what you're talking about there.
But then does it work ? I don't count the games I've seen a marine army get obliterated by colossi HT / infestor baneling. From lategame in TvP and midgame in ZvT, marines die to everything and there's no real other option since mech is pretty easy to counter and Sky terran has too many flaws (cost efficiency, vulnerability to fungle/feedback, hard to transition into and if you go directly into it you die early game).
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Yes, I am. To the point that I won't be bothered buying HotS if things stay more or less the same as they are now.
I don't know why I should buy new game just to fix stuff which should be fixed in WoL for free (mech and T late game). Also Blizzard innability to come with something even remotely interesting for terran doesn't bode well for LotV...
Well, good luck to the brave remaining terran players. You will need it.
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I would be happy with 10 damage BC, 100 energy HSM, and battlehellion. Good mines would be nice too but just that and I'm sold. :/
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Terran is just too hard to play as is. I'm not buying HOTS because it just doesnt seem fair that terran players are asked to work twice as hard to make weaker units viable, while not have late game units worth a damn. I just dont think blizzard cares at all about how hard it is to play terran because as long as MVP wins, there "isnt a problem". I think Terrans nerfs have gone too far, and people with higher skill are being given a handicap to impose "balance". For us non pros, and lower leaguers... its hell trying to use terran and it just doesnt seem like that will ever change.
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I don´t even think a lot of their problems have to do with their race. If they can´t keep up in late game, how much of the blame can be placed on the existence of brood lords, infestors and colossi? Why should terran change?
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Yes to answer your title. Terran does not get good units..
By the way, for those who played the Beta HOTS, was the cloaking ability of ghost changed to toggle only? Or is it still the same as WoL?
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On September 15 2012 21:21 DKR wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2012 21:09 Existor wrote: Seeker Missle 100 energy cost was a bug. It's 125 energy again. Also yamato Cannon is still 100 energy He said that he doesn't see how that could be a bug, someone MUST have edited the value at some stage.
that depends on how horrible their software development process is did you see patch 1.5 go live by any chance?
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On September 16 2012 23:59 dynwar7 wrote:Yes to answer your title. Terran does not get good units.. By the way, for those who played the Beta HOTS, was the cloaking ability of ghost changed to toggle only? Or is it still the same as WoL?
They left it alone thank god. You can still do late game nuke harrass just like in wings of liberty.
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On September 17 2012 04:29 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 23:59 dynwar7 wrote:Yes to answer your title. Terran does not get good units.. By the way, for those who played the Beta HOTS, was the cloaking ability of ghost changed to toggle only? Or is it still the same as WoL? They left it alone thank god. You can still do late game nuke harrass just like in wings of liberty. Would a late game banshee buff be a good first step towards solving terran late game issues? I like Lucifron's use of them, but it seems like they're just slightly too weak for the role he has them perform.
Similarly, would a buff to nuke as a late-game ability also not solve a lot of the issues?
I find those preferrable to turning the raven into a super unit honestly, especially the banshee has a lot of potential as a unit that can require skill etc.
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On September 16 2012 18:03 Cabinet Sanchez wrote:Why is it none of these questions existed before removal of the warhound? Like seriously it's gone from absoloutely not a peep from Terran players to maximum QQ (the battlenet forums are insane) of course Blizzard are going to put something back in to replace the unit, for fucks sake.
Huh? Terrans have been complaining about only getting one interesting unit (the widow mine) since the new HotS units were announced months ago.
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Mech isn't really the issue. The issue is having a much more solid lategame, which was going to be solved by mech. I feel like they want Terran to throw in battle hellions with bio, but it's going to have setbacks with splitting upgrades.
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On September 17 2012 04:48 SolidMoose wrote: Mech isn't really the issue. The issue is having a much more solid lategame, which was going to be solved by mech. I feel like they want Terran to throw in battle hellions with bio, but it's going to have setbacks with splitting upgrades. Upgrade design in this game is archaic. Overlords use air armor, so as a result drops become a bit weaker as the opponent upgrades his units. Infested terran eggs don't do as much damage once siege tanks get attack upgrades. 3/3 for air is almost never hit, so its existence just serves as a way to overpower air units in certain rare late-game scenarios. Entomb shield becomes weaker every time the enemy upgrades, even though it would make sense to have it be based on shield upgrades. Static defense becomes weaker as the game goes on etc.
More importantly, terran should not have to research six different upgrades just to get a decent mix of bio, thors and vikings for a late-game army. At least some of the upgrades should be shared I feel. For instance, create a plating upgrade for mech/air armor and a missile upgrade for bio and air weapons. Other upgrades remain. This allows easier transitioning into air armies at the very least.
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On September 17 2012 04:48 SolidMoose wrote: Mech isn't really the issue. The issue is having a much more solid lategame, which was going to be solved by mech. I feel like they want Terran to throw in battle hellions with bio, but it's going to have setbacks with splitting upgrades.
Lategame is not solved by mech, it's solved my raven usage. The only problem is ravens are a lot less forgiving than spewing out broodlord/corruptor/infestor + 50 zerglings/ultras. Mostly because of a 125 energy seeker.
The 100 energy seeker made lategame just as forgiving for Terran as it is for Zerg right now...aka it balanced it more.
As of right now, lategame TvZ in HOTS is utterly bad, just like in wings of liberty. They should implement the raven buff.
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I agree mech needs some fixing verse protoss, i just hope this doesn't come thought another walking transformer unit. 3 already :/ I still thing battle hellions are a bit lame. i think making window mine one supple would fix my issues witht this unit. limpt drone anyone?
I would also like to see a change to the medivac to make it more useful with mech. Also i like to see changes to make terran late air more viable.
Personally i think they reaper needs some more drastic changes or to be replaced with something new altogether. its a cool concept but doesn't work with the terran tech stucture and current units, it only useful super early game or as a scout and becomes useless after you can do marine drops. would a range upgrade help? maybe a ablitiy? if not, i think they is a lot of scope for a creative new barracks unit that doesn't make the bio ball any stronger.
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On September 17 2012 05:02 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 04:48 SolidMoose wrote: Mech isn't really the issue. The issue is having a much more solid lategame, which was going to be solved by mech. I feel like they want Terran to throw in battle hellions with bio, but it's going to have setbacks with splitting upgrades. Lategame is not solved by mech, it's solved my raven usage. The only problem is ravens are a lot less forgiving than spewing out broodlord/corruptor/infestor + 50 zerglings/ultras. Mostly because of a 125 energy seeker. The 100 energy seeker made lategame just as forgiving for Terran as it is for Zerg right now...aka it balanced it more. As of right now, lategame TvZ in HOTS is utterly bad, just like in wings of liberty. They should implement the raven buff. Terran is favored against zerg in Korea, late game is not so bad that it's beyond redemption. Seeker missile is hard to avoid and gives a really powerful blast that stacks with multiple ravens. It's way stronger in mass than a spell like psi storm. If you have this spell too accessable then what's stopping terran from turtling to raven compositions and winning any late game war of attrition by default? (like ghosts before the snipe nerf)
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On September 17 2012 04:33 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 04:29 avilo wrote:On September 16 2012 23:59 dynwar7 wrote:Yes to answer your title. Terran does not get good units.. By the way, for those who played the Beta HOTS, was the cloaking ability of ghost changed to toggle only? Or is it still the same as WoL? They left it alone thank god. You can still do late game nuke harrass just like in wings of liberty. Would a late game banshee buff be a good first step towards solving terran late game issues? I like Lucifron's use of them, but it seems like they're just slightly too weak for the role he has them perform. Similarly, would a buff to nuke as a late-game ability also not solve a lot of the issues? I find those preferrable to turning the raven into a super unit honestly, especially the banshee has a lot of potential as a unit that can require skill etc.
If you're trying to solve Terran late game issues with the Ghost the clear design restraint is Snipe, because A) it's the single most borring spell design in Starcraft and B) Instantaneous, click spam DPS is inherently retarded by design.
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On September 17 2012 05:42 MoonCricket wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 04:33 Grumbels wrote:On September 17 2012 04:29 avilo wrote:On September 16 2012 23:59 dynwar7 wrote:Yes to answer your title. Terran does not get good units.. By the way, for those who played the Beta HOTS, was the cloaking ability of ghost changed to toggle only? Or is it still the same as WoL? They left it alone thank god. You can still do late game nuke harrass just like in wings of liberty. Would a late game banshee buff be a good first step towards solving terran late game issues? I like Lucifron's use of them, but it seems like they're just slightly too weak for the role he has them perform. Similarly, would a buff to nuke as a late-game ability also not solve a lot of the issues? I find those preferrable to turning the raven into a super unit honestly, especially the banshee has a lot of potential as a unit that can require skill etc. If you're trying to solve Terran late game issues with the Ghost the clear design restraint is Snipe, because A) it's the single most borring spell design in Starcraft and B) Instantaneous, click spam DPS is inherently retarded by design. Not really, since snipe is so weak already. It's not intrusive anymore, which is not to say I like the ability.
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As a Terran I am a bit worried for HotS. In WOL I feel like Terran is strong in the early and midgame, but weak in the lategame. But in the current HotS beta build, all the "new stuff" is either in the early or mid game. Reapers, Hellions, Widow Mines -- all good for openings and timing attacks, but they aren't units that you want in most lategame army compositions.
Balance that with the fact that with the exception of the Mothership Core, Protoss and Zerg early-mid game is not going to change much...and I can see Terran becoming even more of a timing attack/allin race. Which I'm not that thrilled about.
Something needs to be done for lategame Terran. Ghost/Thor/Raven/BC need a good look.
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I don't think Terran needs the warhound. I think they need increased tank damage.
With the Viper, tanks in ZvT become much less scary.. And in PvZ, before the old damage nerf to tanks, tanks were performing well there. Now with battle hellions, revert the tank nerf and factor in widow mines.. What more does Terran need for mech in TvP? For the current metagame, nothing I can see.
The warhound was a clumsy, uninspired unit.
But perhaps blizzard wants to be creative, and justify having an expansion, with a new unit. By all means fire away, but please make the unit interesting.
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On September 17 2012 06:23 osiris17 wrote: I don't think Terran needs the warhound. I think they need increased tank damage.
With the Viper, tanks in ZvT become much less scary.. And in PvZ, before the old damage nerf to tanks, tanks were performing well there. Now with battle hellions, revert the tank nerf and factor in widow mines.. What more does Terran need for mech in TvP? For the current metagame, nothing I can see.
The warhound was a clumsy, uninspired unit.
But perhaps blizzard wants to be creative, and justify having an expansion, with a new unit. By all means fire away, but please make the unit interesting.
doesnt blink stalker and warpgates still rape the living daylights out of mech?
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Nope. Blink stalker timings can be hit vs mech, but they rely on the Terran not playing well. Immortal-chargelot-colossi is about the only scary thing for mech, imo.
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Why does the siege tank need so many units designed to counter it? It's not even that scary in its current form. It was nerfed so many times in WoL beta that by the time all the balance changes came full circle, siege tanks felt a bit fragile and weak. I'm thinking maybe +10 damage to all units across the board and/or a supply reduction to 2 along with widow mines dropping to 1 supply.
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I wonder why people don't do Banshee/mech against Protoss. They even kill Colossus faster than Vikings and decimate anything Protoss has on ground.
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On September 17 2012 06:58 Shikyo wrote: I wonder why people don't do Banshee/mech against Protoss. They even kill Colossus faster than Vikings and decimate anything Protoss has on ground.
So you have 17K posts which means you've probably at least been around since the beta, and you can't figure out why that doesn't work?
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On September 16 2012 03:13 Sabu113 wrote: I don't understand how you all continually bitch about the historically most dominant race in SC2.
The game approaches a state of balance finally and you're all complaining because you can't get the easy wins with blanket emps, silly 1/1/1s or a pack of ghosts.
Now the lot of you are whining about the warhound's removal which if you're not blind (re:IEM post) was obviously necessary.
Now what lategame are you looking for? And be fair, it has to make sense in an RTS as offering a trade off and be combatable by the other races. Nixing some health of the thors and strike cannon in exchange for no energy? 1 Yamato max BCs? [Still don't understand why you can't throw some emps on there if you can make the transition] I understand that in the lategame powerunits of the other races are dealing decently with your MMM balls... yes that's finally when those armies /can/ effectively deal with those very mobile, high dps stim balls.
Jesus. It's like you guys have this angst because the race never suffered from being too weak competitively.
The vast majority of posts in this thread that mention the warhound say that they're glad that it's gone. I think there's like, one person who said otherwise. This thread isn't just "terrans qq about no warhound," even the OP says that the only good thing about the warhound is that it's gone. And even if Terran is (at least) very viable at the top level with good control, a lot of players can't split or multitask like crazy, so things like fungals/banelings/storms/colossi pose a greater problem for those players than it does for competitive players.
On topic, I random now, but for a good while Terran was my main race. I think I will initially enjoy playing around with the new Terran units and trying to make them work. I also think they'll be fun for messing around in team games and when playing with friends and stuff. However, competitively in 1v1 at the moment I'm not sure how it will work. I can't say for sure till I've tried it and (more importantly) people who understand and are just flat out better than me at the game have more time to try to make things work. However, my marine splitting/micro/control is absolutely terrible. I mech in TvT/TvZ as it is now, and will enjoy trying it in TvP. If it's not viable, though, I may just stop randoming and switch to Toss or Zerg, because it's increasingly frustrating trying to play TvP and losing nearly 100% of the time it goes to the lategame. But to be fair, I don't think that Blizzard has an obligation to make bio AND mech viable for ALL matchups.
I am trying to stay optimistic about everything, though, and am hoping that after all is said and done, HotS will end up fun and refreshing, but with elements of the same gameplay we enjoy now
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On September 17 2012 07:02 architecture wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 06:58 Shikyo wrote: I wonder why people don't do Banshee/mech against Protoss. They even kill Colossus faster than Vikings and decimate anything Protoss has on ground. So you have 17K posts which means you've probably at least been around since the beta, and you can't figure out why that doesn't work? That's right...
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On September 17 2012 08:20 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 07:02 architecture wrote:On September 17 2012 06:58 Shikyo wrote: I wonder why people don't do Banshee/mech against Protoss. They even kill Colossus faster than Vikings and decimate anything Protoss has on ground. So you have 17K posts which means you've probably at least been around since the beta, and you can't figure out why that doesn't work? That's right... build slower (individual build time) takes more gas needs more production facilities (reactor vikings vs tech lab banshees) feedback...
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You can march your tanks too easily across the map in the current state of the games, therefore blizz can't buff tanks. Protoss used to have an early game advantage, this forces Terran to sit in their base and defend with powerful siege tanks. Terran can harass with spider mines while defending.
I believe tanks should be buffed though, this will encourage more splitting. The whole balance should be done around buffed tanks. Just go ahead and make the siege tanks scarier, then balance around it.
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On September 16 2012 14:18 Asymptote1 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 07:00 Bombadil819 wrote:On September 16 2012 00:44 Psychobabas wrote:
Putting balance aside, they just have to add something, purely from a marketing perspective. Not everybody browse teamliquid or are as hardcore players as most of the people here. The casual terran players wouldn't buy an expansion for a mine and a hp buff on the hellion. Actual casual players will buy it for the campaign. Just throwing that out there. I bought WoL because I loved RoC/FT, and trusted that Blizzard would have a fun campaign. Agreed, terran players gotta stop complaining, they already got over 1 whole year of complete tournament dominance until Blizzard forced it to change, its time for a BETTER game, which means the other races need their actual options.
That's bullshit, and everyone knows it whether they want to admit it or not. Terran were never even close to "complete dominance," certainly not internationally. There was a period of time where terrans were doing extremely well specifically in Code S. That small window of time has somehow warped everyone's perception of the history of the game.
On September 17 2012 06:58 Shikyo wrote: I wonder why people don't do Banshee/mech against Protoss. They even kill Colossus faster than Vikings and decimate anything Protoss has on ground.
it works until the protoss player makes 1-2 stargates and churns out a few rounds of phoenix. I was basically doing only air with mech support for hundreds of games in diamond league. It's a gimmicky build that relies too much on being able to do early damage (and this early damage got completely shut down by the -10 second build time buff on observers) and taking hidden expansions for extra gas geysers. It won't work on players who have encountered an air based build before.
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On September 17 2012 06:47 althaz wrote: Nope. Blink stalker timings can be hit vs mech, but they rely on the Terran not playing well. Immortal-chargelot-colossi is about the only scary thing for mech, imo.
its not a timing... you push out -> they blink in and kill your factories
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United Kingdom12009 Posts
On September 17 2012 09:17 Zaurus wrote: You can march your tanks too easily across the map in the current state of the games, therefore blizz can't buff tanks. Protoss used to have an early game advantage, this forces Terran to sit in their base and defend with powerful siege tanks. Terran can harass with spider mines while defending.
I believe tanks should be buffed though, this will encourage more splitting. The whole balance should be done around buffed tanks. Just go ahead and make the siege tanks scarier, then balance around it.
Now I don't want to say that you're an idiot, but you're completely wrong. I play mech in WoL in all matchups and it's impossible to do anything but leapfrog tanks if you're against an opponent who isn't a moron.
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I dont even mind that the warhound is gone.. I was really excited for skyterran to be a new thing to try out with the raven and bc changes... but not to be i guess
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On September 15 2012 21:59 Grapefruit wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2012 21:41 Sogetsu wrote: The BattleCruiser DPS was INSANE, seriously people. And the Raven could be called "OP" (And I am Terran)
Anyways let's wait, maybe they can re-work the WarHound to fit in the game I think it's totally fine for a tier 4 unit that costs 400/300, takes 6 supply and 1,5 minutes to build to do some really serious damage.
Carrier costs more.. takes 2 mins to build.. and is still not used. For some reason it was brought back. But it still won't be used.
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On September 17 2012 10:17 dragonblade369 wrote: Carrier costs more.. takes 2 mins to build.. and is still not used. For some reason it was brought back. But it still won't be used.
If mech becomes an option in TvP, it will be. Terran and Protoss should work together so that Terran gets a new mech unit (or some other way to make mech viable in the MU), and Protoss gets to keep the Carrier.
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United States4882 Posts
On September 17 2012 10:25 Crawdad wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 10:17 dragonblade369 wrote: Carrier costs more.. takes 2 mins to build.. and is still not used. For some reason it was brought back. But it still won't be used. If mech becomes an option in TvP, it will be. Terran and Protoss should work together so that Terran gets a new mech unit (or some other way to make mech viable in the MU), and Protoss gets to keep the Carrier.
I agree. I think the main problem here is that terran needs a better way to counter later game protoss compositions like immortal/archon/colossus and that protoss needs to have a stepping stone into carriers (or at least have carriers take less time to build, SOMETHING).
Terran will probably do better against early protoss compositions now with the battlehellion, but I think that the biggest problem for terran is that the 2 most important mech units, banshees and thors, are completely vulnerable to feedback, and battlehellion/tank just doesn't do enough sheer DPS to deal with archons and stalkers and immortals. As it is, strike cannons really needs to be a cooldown ability and not cost energy; this will make thors reliable in TvP as well as give them the role of "immortal snipers" (Strike Cannons kill immortals in one hit).
As for protoss, they just don't have a good way to step into carriers safely. There's too much of a chance that at any point in time they can be overrun if they don't keep investing money into gateway units and supply into robo units. I'm HOPING that the tempest allows protoss a more stable way to defend in order to get up carriers. However, I think in order to fulfill this task, it needs some tweaking to give it more DPS, lower cost, and quicker build time. In a sense, it should really be on a tier with the void ray as a "midgame" unit, not with the carrier as a "lategame seige" unit. I think the key thing to note here is that protoss just doesn't have a stable way to defend at t3, unlike terran with tanks/PFs and zerg with spines/infestors (and everything else they got in HotS lol).
I think if we push these 2 things and bring them to attention, Blizzard can help us by creating a better game for every race.
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On September 15 2012 21:27 Herect wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2012 20:49 Grapefruit wrote: I don't know, to be honest since the start of the Beta my interest in SC2 has dropped really hard and basically hit the bottom yesterday, when they announced that they are going to change to HSM to 125 energy again.
Really, it just adds up:
>First the Warhound, which was obvious bullshit (and I really wonder what Blizzard has been doing for the past couple of months to release it like that). Only good thing about it is that it's gone. Even if it was a very good unit it was the epitome of boring skill-less play.
>Then the whole BC issue. First it gets that Speed Buff spell, which is re-moved quite quickly in favor of increased damage vs. ground units. Now however the increased damage is a "bug" and got fixed. What the fuck?
>Ghost cloak is also pretty fucked up thanks to the cool-down and makes nukeing a lot harder and riskier. I would understand it if there was a serious issue with nukeing in HotS and they had to fix this later on, but rolling out a straight up nerf in an expansion?
>The Widow Mine could technically be a nice unit but 2 supply is just way to much. The thing here is that Terran doesn't really need any more cost effective units, Bio + Medivac heal is wonderful in that regard, Terran needs supply effective units to deal with Zerg and Protoss lategame.
>The Battle Hellion is okay, I guess, but just not a very interesting unit.
>The only really cool thing is the Reaper, which has gotten really little attention since the nerf back at the beginning of WoL. It's a great opening harass and early map-control unit, not doubt. My problem with it though is that I don't think Terran really needs more stuff for the early and mid-game. We need late-game units.
>Last but not least, the Raven. I was so fucking hyped when I saw that it got a speed buff and that HSM only cost 100 energy. That alone made HotS interesting for me. Well, as it turns out it was just a "bug" (I'd really like to know what Blizzards definition of a bug is, since the spell never did cost 100 energy, so someone MUST have changed it but whatever...).
All in all I'm just utterly disappointed. I hope the "new" Warhound or whatever they are going to give us instead will be REALLY cool. The Widow Mine is hard to use. You can't expect to master it in a few days. It is different form the Spider Mine, you can't spam in all over the map and hope it works. It has to be well placed, well Microed (proper target and please turnoff auto-attack) and often you'lol have to realocate and unburrow to save them.
yes that is exactely what mech needs, another uber immobile hard to micro very expensive high food consuming "tankshot" that can be avoided with micro and completely shut done by detection
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On September 17 2012 05:29 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 05:02 avilo wrote:On September 17 2012 04:48 SolidMoose wrote: Mech isn't really the issue. The issue is having a much more solid lategame, which was going to be solved by mech. I feel like they want Terran to throw in battle hellions with bio, but it's going to have setbacks with splitting upgrades. Lategame is not solved by mech, it's solved my raven usage. The only problem is ravens are a lot less forgiving than spewing out broodlord/corruptor/infestor + 50 zerglings/ultras. Mostly because of a 125 energy seeker. The 100 energy seeker made lategame just as forgiving for Terran as it is for Zerg right now...aka it balanced it more. As of right now, lategame TvZ in HOTS is utterly bad, just like in wings of liberty. They should implement the raven buff. Terran is favored against zerg in Korea, late game is not so bad that it's beyond redemption. Seeker missile is hard to avoid and gives a really powerful blast that stacks with multiple ravens. It's way stronger in mass than a spell like psi storm. If you have this spell too accessable then what's stopping terran from turtling to raven compositions and winning any late game war of attrition by default? (like ghosts before the snipe nerf)
Because when a Terran establishes a split map position with massive infrastructure to defend against tech switches/counter attacks, he pretty much outplayed you the entire game. That's the only time when Ravens really become useful, outside of very specific niche situations where the Z totally overreacts or just reacts badly to a Raven based composition.
People keep acting like making Ravens viable is going to make TvZ stupid or something. Hello people, the Sci Vessel was like 100x more useful and more overpowered than the Raven, with virtually no counter except Scourge (which were marginally good at countering good Sci Vessel + M&M control at best). And TvZ was PERFECTLY fine in BW. I see no reason why Ravens shouldn't be viable in the midgame against Z at all.
Blizzard honestly just needs to get off their damn high horse and just buff the Tank and make it useful in TvP again. The bigger maps means Terran players can't Siege a Z fast anyways, and Bio/Tank compositions barely work when attacking against a good Z player now adays.
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United States4882 Posts
On September 17 2012 12:20 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 05:29 Grumbels wrote:On September 17 2012 05:02 avilo wrote:On September 17 2012 04:48 SolidMoose wrote: Mech isn't really the issue. The issue is having a much more solid lategame, which was going to be solved by mech. I feel like they want Terran to throw in battle hellions with bio, but it's going to have setbacks with splitting upgrades. Lategame is not solved by mech, it's solved my raven usage. The only problem is ravens are a lot less forgiving than spewing out broodlord/corruptor/infestor + 50 zerglings/ultras. Mostly because of a 125 energy seeker. The 100 energy seeker made lategame just as forgiving for Terran as it is for Zerg right now...aka it balanced it more. As of right now, lategame TvZ in HOTS is utterly bad, just like in wings of liberty. They should implement the raven buff. Terran is favored against zerg in Korea, late game is not so bad that it's beyond redemption. Seeker missile is hard to avoid and gives a really powerful blast that stacks with multiple ravens. It's way stronger in mass than a spell like psi storm. If you have this spell too accessable then what's stopping terran from turtling to raven compositions and winning any late game war of attrition by default? (like ghosts before the snipe nerf) Because when a Terran establishes a split map position with massive infrastructure to defend against tech switches/counter attacks, he pretty much outplayed you the entire game. That's the only time when Ravens really become useful, outside of very specific niche situations where the Z totally overreacts or just reacts badly to a Raven based composition. People keep acting like making Ravens viable is going to make TvZ stupid or something. Hello people, the Sci Vessel was like 100x more useful and more overpowered than the Raven, with virtually no counter except Scourge (which were marginally good at countering good Sci Vessel + M&M control at best). And TvZ was PERFECTLY fine in BW. I see no reason why Ravens shouldn't be viable in the midgame against Z at all.
Transitions require a stable defense. Ravens will never be viable in midgame because there's no way to stably get up 3 starports and get all FIVE raven upgrades and wait for them to amass energy. Plus they cost a shitton of gas, you need like at least 6 geysers. I think this is probably of little importance to this discussion, I just wanted to point that out. (Also, there was the plague + 1 muta counter to science vessels :D)
To actually add to the discussion about raven being too little or too much in the lategame, I think it's probable that we'll start to see more positional micro and the fact that seeker missile wins battles well won't matter. With the introduction of the Swarm Host, I believe that TvZ will become much more positionally focused like TvT and BW. This means that the "engagement balance" will not matter as much because winning one battle won't win you the game as it currently does now. Everything, in time, will come to be spread out much more. That being said, Ravens are actually fine as they are now. They can engage BLords with a good chance of winning and zerg now has the ability to prevent or slow down a counterpush if their attack goes badly.
Blizzard honestly just needs to get off their damn high horse and just buff the Tank and make it useful in TvP again. The bigger maps means Terran players can't Siege a Z fast anyways, and Bio/Tank compositions barely work when attacking against a good Z player now adays.
Watch Bomber if you don't think marine/tank works in modern TvZ.
As for the tank's role in TvP...I think it's become primarily to kill stalkers/sentries/colossus. I truly believe the reason why mech isn't viable in TvP is the fact that thor is completely useless. If Blizzard were to make thors viable in TvP, mech would be definitely be viable. Unlike BW, SC2 mech has most of its damage output in thors, not tanks; this is evident in TvZ and, to some extent, in lategame TvT. The tank doesn't need a buff, thors need more versatility.
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They shoud make reaper like this..
Characteristics of the reaper:
- Cannot be added to the deathball. - Its a scout and harass oriented unit. - Requires lots of micro.
The change i propose is:
Stats - Same stats as before - 200 energy - 2 supply ( so it wont be massed )
Abilities:
Throw charge 3 seconds deployment, usable on buildings( works as a static widow mine that cannot move. The widow mine would be removed )
*If used on buildings its a instant cast that deals 100 damage
Energy cost: 50
Research on techlab: 50/50 130 seconds ( Enough time to get detection for every race because of my second ability)
Widow mine stats: 100 damage 20 aoe. ( low aoe)
Cloaking field: Gives cloack for 5 seconds ( dispells on atack but not on deploying mine )
Cost: 75 energy
Passive regen: Regens when out of combat as it is now.
Points to think about.
- The reaper can be included in mech because 3 reaper can deploy a total of 3 mines every 50 seconds for a total cost of 200/200 and still have harass and strong scouting abilities all game long, providing good area control.
- A unit that complements mech as a caster, that doesn't build from factory nor is too expensive.
-A terran will have to think twice before including mines in bio because it will delay stim tech by 130 seconds, so bio wont have such strong defensive capabilities and alot of offensive at same time.
-The reaper wont be in the army because they will be too valuable, they will always be deploying mines, scouting, or harassing workers.
- Fufills the role of map awareness that the terran so much need, but doesn't give map control, only board control.
Assuming a full energy reaper
Possible combos:
-Cloack for 75 energy drop a mine for 50 energy atack workers for a few seconds and cloack out of there.
-Cloack, drop a few mines on the ramp harass main and leave.
-Full base scout for 75 energy if there are no investments in detection.
-Map awareness for 75 energy.
- etc etc.
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On September 15 2012 22:21 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2012 22:08 kade wrote: i haven't seriously played sc2 since the beta, can someone fill me in as to what makes mech not viable? Immortals + Chargelots + Blinkstalkers. It would be interesting to see if it gets better if you remove one of the tree but atm thats not really realistic. its that plus the fact that bio MMM is better, faster, safer and overall crushes any mech strategy. Mech should bring to the table the ultimate killing machine in terms of unit composition. Right now in WOL it isnt that and in HotS the battle helion alone makes it much much better
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What do terrans consistently have a huge problem with? Lategame. What did blizzard not address at all? Lategame. They need to buff the raven, significantly. The fact that no one used it until post Queen buff speaks volumes about its shittyness. Instead of doing anything meaningful, Blizzard throws in an a-move roflstomp unit and then takes it out (Wow! Amazing blizzard! Spot on!). They better put in a good unit and they better fix the fucking lategame.
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On September 17 2012 12:54 Lesrah wrote: They shoud make reaper like this..
Characteristics of the reaper:
- Cannot be added to the deathball. - Its a scout and harass oriented unit. - Requires lots of micro.
The change i propose is:
Stats - Same stats as before - 200 energy - 2 supply ( so it wont be massed )
Abilities:
Throw charge 3 seconds deployment, usable on buildings( works as a static widow mine that cannot move. The widow mine would be removed )
*If used on buildings its a instant cast that deals 100 damage
Energy cost: 50
Research on techlab: 50/50 130 seconds ( Enough time to get detection for every race because of my second ability)
Widow mine stats: 100 damage 20 aoe. ( low aoe)
Cloaking field: Gives cloack for 5 seconds ( dispells on atack but not on deploying mine )
Cost: 75 energy
Passive regen: Regens when out of combat as it is now.
Points to think about.
- The reaper can be included in mech because 3 reaper can deploy a total of 3 mines every 50 seconds for a total cost of 200/200 and still have harass and strong scouting abilities all game long, providing good area control.
- A unit that complements mech as a caster, that doesn't build from factory nor is too expensive.
-A terran will have to think twice before including mines in bio because it will delay stim tech by 130 seconds, so bio wont have such strong defensive capabilities and alot of offensive at same time.
-The reaper wont be in the army because they will be too valuable, they will always be deploying mines, scouting, or harassing workers.
- Fufills the role of map awareness that the terran so much need, but doesn't give map control, only board control.
Assuming a full energy reaper
Possible combos:
-Cloack for 75 energy drop a mine for 50 energy atack workers for a few seconds and cloack out of there.
-Cloack, drop a few mines on the ramp harass main and leave.
-Full base scout for 75 energy if there are no investments in detection.
-Map awareness for 75 energy.
- etc etc.
So it's like a vulture? New reaper is fine but Zerg and Protoss tears will undoubtedly get it nerfed at some point.
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United States4882 Posts
On September 17 2012 13:51 Inquisitor1323 wrote: What do terrans consistently have a huge problem with? Lategame. What did blizzard not address at all? Lategame. They need to buff the raven, significantly. The fact that no one used it until post Queen buff speaks volumes about its shittyness. Instead of doing anything meaningful, Blizzard throws in an a-move roflstomp unit and then takes it out (Wow! Amazing blizzard! Spot on!). They better put in a good unit and they better fix the fucking lategame.
I think terran has had a difficult lategame until the latest patch for zerg. From the onset of that patch, we've seen terran lategame evolve at an alarming rate in TvZ and, in Korea, terran is actually favoured in the matchup lategame now. I don't think terran needs any help with the lategame in TvZ. As for the raven, it's quite a strong unit already Before the queen buff, terrans were either winning or losing earlier in the matchup; the fact that the lategame has been opened up to terran and terrans have figured out how to transition into raven safely is a good thing.
TvP...well, that might be another issue considering that terran is still doing the same thing at 30:00 that they were doing at 16:00, expanding and making MMM/G. In my opinion, all of this can get fixed if Blizzard opens up the mech path in this matchup. Until then we're just going to see lots of bioball versus colossus deathball battles that end with both sides equally dead.
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Reading some of this thread it seems like people have just forgotten two things: - Thor on a cooldown with no energy bar has been tried...and was reverted. It flat out murdered Protoss because there was just so little Protoss can do to them. That said, theoretically Tempests could work; but you'd have literally no way to delay an attack coming and we don't have scans to check army composition.
- Loads of people seem to forget Vikings exist. I see a lot of people saying "hey, make mech viable and Protoss can go Carriers!" Even if you go mech you can (probably should, for vision) get some Vikings. And Vikings either counter or trade well with around half of the Protoss arsenal. Protoss has 15 units WoL. One of them is the Probe, so its 14 units actually used in a Protoss army. Theres five gateway units (Zealot, Stalker, Sentry, HT and DT), plus the Archon, plus Immortals. Everything else is air or can be hit with air. That means half of the Protoss army units can be hit by Viking primary attacks and its only going to get worse with HotS thanks to the Tempest (air), Oracle (air) and Mothership Core (air). As long as Vikings are so effective against so much Protoss stuff and can be built so quickly (thanks to reactors) then Protoss air play just isn't going to be viable.
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its funny for terrans to be disappointed when protoss was a joke untill the recent patch. Don't worry terran players seeing that protosses heart of the swarm jokes are being addressed im sure they will do something about terran units.
Although i honestly feel that the widow mine isn't really a good unit i mean all i can think of is terran getting a gimpier baneling that has to burrow to detonate.
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United Kingdom12009 Posts
On September 17 2012 19:41 Lightspeaker wrote: Reading some of this thread it seems like people have just forgotten two things: - Thor on a cooldown with no energy bar has been tried...and was reverted. It flat out murdered Protoss because there was just so little Protoss can do to them. That said, theoretically Tempests could work; but you'd have literally no way to delay an attack coming and we don't have scans to check army composition.
- Loads of people seem to forget Vikings exist. I see a lot of people saying "hey, make mech viable and Protoss can go Carriers!" Even if you go mech you can (probably should, for vision) get some Vikings. And Vikings either counter or trade well with around half of the Protoss arsenal. Protoss has 15 units WoL. One of them is the Probe, so its 14 units actually used in a Protoss army. Theres five gateway units (Zealot, Stalker, Sentry, HT and DT), plus the Archon, plus Immortals. Everything else is air or can be hit with air. That means half of the Protoss army units can be hit by Viking primary attacks and its only going to get worse with HotS thanks to the Tempest (air), Oracle (air) and Mothership Core (air). As long as Vikings are so effective against so much Protoss stuff and can be built so quickly (thanks to reactors) then Protoss air play just isn't going to be viable.
Hate to tell you this, but Pheonix's and Carriers actually do awesomer against Vikings, well with good micro from Pheonix's and if you add carrier micro back into the game.
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Won't be buying into this crap anymore. blizzard really has to do something fundamentally to terran lategame or they will loose me as customer.
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I play Terran as well as Protoss, and I'll be happy if they just return BC and raven buffs, probably decrease widow mine supply. All the rest is great as is.
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playing terran in beta right now is so underwhelming. Im basically doing the same strats from wings in this beta, because i dont know whats actually different for terran.... Dont even feel like playing beta quite honestly. These bad maps ugh
so we paying $60 for some spidermines that are gimmicky and reaper laming in tvt?
i'll pass for now. Terran needs improvements.
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On September 17 2012 21:09 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 19:41 Lightspeaker wrote: Reading some of this thread it seems like people have just forgotten two things: - Thor on a cooldown with no energy bar has been tried...and was reverted. It flat out murdered Protoss because there was just so little Protoss can do to them. That said, theoretically Tempests could work; but you'd have literally no way to delay an attack coming and we don't have scans to check army composition.
- Loads of people seem to forget Vikings exist. I see a lot of people saying "hey, make mech viable and Protoss can go Carriers!" Even if you go mech you can (probably should, for vision) get some Vikings. And Vikings either counter or trade well with around half of the Protoss arsenal. Protoss has 15 units WoL. One of them is the Probe, so its 14 units actually used in a Protoss army. Theres five gateway units (Zealot, Stalker, Sentry, HT and DT), plus the Archon, plus Immortals. Everything else is air or can be hit with air. That means half of the Protoss army units can be hit by Viking primary attacks and its only going to get worse with HotS thanks to the Tempest (air), Oracle (air) and Mothership Core (air). As long as Vikings are so effective against so much Protoss stuff and can be built so quickly (thanks to reactors) then Protoss air play just isn't going to be viable. Hate to tell you this, but Pheonix's and Carriers actually do awesomer against Vikings, well with good micro from Pheonix's and if you add carrier micro back into the game.
...I sincerely hope you're joking here. Either that or you don't play Protoss.
In case you're not: Hate to tell you this, but Vikings outrange Phoenix by fully 50% even with the range upgrade (and more than double the range without it). You can't dance them like you can vs Mutalisks. So what "Phoenix micro" are you talking about?
And Carriers are almost a full 1 speed slower than Vikings with 1 less range to launch fighters than Vikings do to attack so again...you can't micro them against Vikings unless the Vikings are on hold position or something (fighters launch at 8 and stay launched until 14, but you can't get away from the Vikings because they're faster and so stay in range).
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On September 17 2012 23:49 Lightspeaker wrote: In case you're not: Hate to tell you this, but Vikings outrange Phoenix by fully 50% even with the range upgrade (and more than double the range without it). You can't dance them like you can vs Mutalisks. So what "Phoenix micro" are you talking about?
Phoenixes counter Vikings for cost. The problem is that there are usually so many more Vikings on the field, that Phoenixes are focused down by burst damage before they can do any damage themselves. Carrier leashing would help alleviate this issue, though.
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Terran got the best in WOL. They shouldn't in HOTS. Period.
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On September 18 2012 01:12 Hetz wrote: Terran got the best in WOL. They shouldn't in HOTS. Period.
Indeed, protoss got that crappy thing they call storm and zerg were left with that useless fungal.
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A mix of tanks + whatever is still very usable in many games. I know some people want mass tanks back, but it doesn't work well in SC2. We already saw it back when tanks did way more damage, and it wasn't pretty.
I have a feeling battle hellions in front and regular hellions in back lines is going to be really really good.
Widow mines have a ton of potential. They can be tweaked as needed (faster burrow?), and already they come sooner in the game. Widow mines are going to win games.
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On September 18 2012 01:12 Hetz wrote: Terran got the best in WOL. They shouldn't in HOTS. Period. Such bad logic. “Terran did really well in WoL so we should make sure they get screwed in HotS” or “we really should try to make the best game that we can for all the races.”
And yes, I feel like I’ve been screwed a little.
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Why did they want warhound in mech in the first place? Isn't mech already anti-ground? It would make more sense to have anti-air mech that get support from thors vs void rays or mutalisks.
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On September 15 2012 20:55 Wildmoon wrote: I am terran too but I am more toward making the game better not giving cool things to terran. I think terran is the most complete race in SC2 right now. It doesn't really need any groundbreaking change in its gameplay. Some buff and support unit for mech are enough.
I quote this to argue against the "terran is the most complete race" sentiment.
There is nothing 'complete' feeling about Terran except for the fact that the shit they've got works better than the shit the other races have. The Terran race as a whole has a giant gaping hole in the fact that there is no mid/high-tier unit change-overs like Protoss and Zerg have.
Allow me to give examples.
It is very common for both Protoss and Zerg compositions to change throughout the phases of any game they are in.
PvT Zealot/Stalker opener (couple of Sentries as needed) Blink Stalker midgame Zealot/Archon/HT/Colossus late game
ZvZ Zergling/Baneling opener Roach/Infestor mid game Hydra/Broodlord/Corruptor/Infestor late game
TvZ, TvT, or TvP (just replace tank with marauder) Gimmicky opener Marine Tank mid game Marine Tank Medivac late game
Zergling and Protoss have entire unit changeovers, First you start out with small numbers of units, but those quickly lose their viability, then you change over to a midgame composition that is cheap, strong, and mobile, finally, you end up in these rock-solid death ball compositions. Each phase of the game feels different from the very composition to how the armies are used.
Now... Terran... We have the Marine, the end-all-be-all of the entire Terran race. There is no such unit for the other two races for multiple reasons. Firstly, the Marine is too damn good. I have been arguing this since day 1, but it's not a balance whine, it's a design gripe. The reason the Marine is used in every MU is because Terran has no incentive to use anything else. Anything non-marine is only hurting yourself. Why would you give away the biggest advantage you've got going for you?
Secondly, what else is there? The Thor seems like it could be a good higher-tier option, but it lacks proper support the way the Medivac, Siege Tank, and Marauder can all provide support for Marines. Battle Hellions may fix this, but I am not thoroughly convinced just yet. The Ghost WAS a great option. Snipe was a little bit too powerful, but then Blizzard decided to turn snipe into an Airsoft gun rather than tune it to decent levels (something like 30+20 to light would have been fine i'm sure).
Thirdly, the Marine has never known a true counter. A counter unit in an RTS discourages the use of the targetted unit. Nothing ever discourages the use of marines... ever... Banelings? Nope. Infestors? Nope. Marines still get made by the dozens (literally, 12 at a time, watch some pro games) in face of such units. Colossus? Yeah, cool story bro... Siege tanks and Hellions? Nope, MMM all the way! NOTHING discourages Marines because nothing in the game can ever reduce their effectiveness to levels that they are no longer worth investing into. Marines are ALWAYS worth it.
Anyway, the thesis of this giant wall of text is: NO, Terran is not "more complete" than the other races, they've just been getting by on a unit that is OP as fuck and somehow people have convinced themselves that this is a good thing. Sit back and think about it. There are a lot of problems with the way Terran is designed. They need just as much help as the other races.
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On September 18 2012 02:41 Louis8k8 wrote: Why did they want warhound in mech in the first place? Isn't mech already anti-ground? It would make more sense to have anti-air mech that get support from thors vs void rays or mutalisks.
its not really anti ground when its ground cant go toe for toe with protoss robotics.
The immortals run threw them, The colosus is basically a siege tank without the need to go into siege mode... Factory units are just clearly inferior and pointless to play in the matchup. At-least with bio even if your army is inferior the fact that you can drop makes it viable. With mech you got inferior army, AND you cant do jack shit to the econ of protoss . The warhound is basically a mech marauder and its exactly what terran needs to get factory play viable .
the other way is to have unlimited spider mines /Goliaths come back and buffed siege tanks, but blizzard does not seem to want that solution.
So unless they bring back the warhound, or something like it. It will be BIO forever in TvP. Mech will show up once in a while as 1 or 2 base all in just for a small surprise tactic, but no way will it ever be feasible. There is no such thing as a macro game with mech against toss. You either All in with it or GG.
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The problem with changing how marines work would probably make them not worth making anymore because Blizzard patches are almost always 1 step forwards 2 steps back.
Besides, marines are like the only microable unit in Starcraft 2. The micro is what made Starcraft different than other RTS games, no single other game has mirrored the speed and intensity of it. Nor the satisfaction of winning battles with micro. This is why I'm against a move units, it doesn't matter if they are OP or not, they are just boring and against everything Starcraft stands for.
This is why people rooted for Boxer, because he would be totally bad ass and beat everyone with micro while he floated 2k. It was amazingly fun to watch, as opposed to the incredibly dull macro-fests this game has turned into lately, its like the whole game just took a U-Turn and is regressing, not progressing while you have idiots saying Starcraft 2 is still young when its 2 years old and the metagame changes every month.
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Russian Federation601 Posts
On September 18 2012 01:12 Hetz wrote: Terran got the best in WOL. They shouldn't in HOTS. Period. you mean ghosts? almost as useful unit as infestors or ht's? *sarcasm* t in wotl the race with 3 out of 4 worst units ingame, nuff said. if they shoudn't have something good in hots then it's just better to delete them and leave only 2 races and right now terran changes are totally scuk compared to other races
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Mine being built in the factory is dumb anyway, and at 2 supply even worse. Give the mines to hellions or create a new unit to give the mines to, give them an inventory of 3 mines like in bw, why reinvent the wheel when you have an awesome mechanic that everyone loves already. What they have to do is analyse what makes TvZ so good then adjust protoss to fit in. (if it means removing the colossus, so be it, they have an awesome opportunity to do it right now). Warpin was considered bad for the game but nowadays you'll see more and more pylon harass in the late game, which give less supply for the deathball and make more things happen on the map, so it turned out pretty well I'd say despite its negative effects (on PvP and in early game mostly).
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I like how no terran seemed to care before the warhound was removed...
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Make mines 1 supply tbh. I do not understand 2 supply at ALL.
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That reaper change is fucking retarded. It just turns TvT from a good match up to a clusterfuck, while not addressing or affecting any of the problems that Terran is facing against the other races.
Blizzard needs to fuck off and stop shoving things down our throat, things that they think would be "cool". No one was asking for Reapers to be the answer when there are fundamental problems in the later stages of the game that need to be addressed.
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On September 18 2012 00:21 Crawdad wrote:
The problem is that there are usually so many more Vikings on the field,
Which is exactly what I said at first, so I'm not entirely sure why you're trying to 'correct' me...
As long as Vikings are so effective against so much Protoss stuff and can be built so quickly (thanks to reactors) then Protoss air play just isn't going to be viable.
The other guy said something about "Phoenix micro against Vikings" which is like...what? You can't micro Phoenix against Vikings...theres no micro to DO other than focus fire, but they can have higher Viking numbers more easily. Unless like...the Vikings land and the Phoenixes have to pick them up or something.
On September 18 2012 04:29 Jermstuddog wrote: *snip*
Discounting whether or not Terran can be considered a "complete" race (because I have no intention of getting into that discussion) I do agree with your principle that the marine is too strong and thats why Terran is in such a bad state. Personally I reckon that the problems they've had balancing Terran as an entire race is because they've consistently avoided nerfing the marine in any way. Honestly I think a lot of Terran nerfs could have been avoided entirely if they'd just put their foot down and nerfed the marine instead. Instead they've spent a huge amount of time and effort nerfing everything AROUND the marine for balance which keeps forcing Terran players back to just producing a billion marines and attacking.
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I think the only way Terran has a decent chance in HOTS is the fact if A: we get Tech Reactors, B: cheaper upgrades and decreased upgrade times, C: Immortal gets trashed(never going to happen) D: We get the Science Vessel back cause that would help alot of with mech in TvP as it can heal mechanical units. E: Tanks and Thors get a big ass buffs in terms of damage, cost and dps That's pretty much what i think anyway
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they are not fresh enough, a 1/2 new unit plus 1 new unit, is bad even for a dlc
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On September 18 2012 20:24 Lightspeaker wrote: Discounting whether or not Terran can be considered a "complete" race (because I have no intention of getting into that discussion) I do agree with your principle that the marine is too strong and thats why Terran is in such a bad state. Personally I reckon that the problems they've had balancing Terran as an entire race is because they've consistently avoided nerfing the marine in any way. Honestly I think a lot of Terran nerfs could have been avoided entirely if they'd just put their foot down and nerfed the marine instead. Instead they've spent a huge amount of time and effort nerfing everything AROUND the marine for balance which keeps forcing Terran players back to just producing a billion marines and attacking.
Honestly, right now I think that the marine isn't that fundamentally flawed anymore. A lot of the problems when fighting marines came from Terran being able to play economically AND pressure with a costefficient unit. (so even/better economy AND good trades) Now they basically have to decide whether to pressure or to play economically. (so even/better economy OR good trades)
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Agree with the OP. Though I like SC2 a lot, not excited about HOTS.
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Warhound is quite a unit of protoss model. Strong single unit HIGH HP220 Good damage ease to use
that's why its removed
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On September 19 2012 02:13 winthrop wrote: Warhound is quite a unit of protoss model. Strong single unit HIGH HP220 Good damage ease to use
that's why its removed
Thor, BC, Marauder?
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Did anyone posting here watch the latest Real Talk with Catz? I thought he made a really interesting point about the Warhound and it's removal. He felt that while the unit was insanely OP it was helping to create lots of new and interesting strategies, at least with TvZ. It meant Zerg had to scout early with overlords and they had to get gas off of two bases if any factory play was suspected. In other words Zerg players could not do the same opener no matter what, they had to play reactively and have different openers that lead to different paths. Similarly, when I was watching TT1's stream he was going mass Protoss air vs. Terran mech, which was pretty cool to watch (because it was new).
Now I hated the Warhound as a unit, and I'm glad it was removed, but I think Catz brings up a valid point in that introducing a game changing unit lead to some pretty interesting new innovation and the potential for cooler games if the game changing unit is nerfed a bit so it becomes non-game-breaking. The new units for all races (but especially Terran) in HoTS feel fairly boring and don't seem to be that game changing. It's pretty much WoL currently with a few minor tweaks - nothing like BW, which added Lurkers, DTs, etc.
What I wish they'd done is given each race a hard to micro/use unit that does crazy amounts of damage. Something that can actually zone properly if controlled extremely well (the need for excellent micro is key). Then we could start to have more positional battles and as the pros get more comfortable microing these units they can be nerfed if necessary (opponents aren't able to find ways to counter strats after several months). That would be ideal to me, but Blizzard seems more interested in trying not to make anyone whine about balance during a beta.
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On September 19 2012 04:14 Swords wrote: The Warhound was OP, but it opened up new and exciting play.
The problem wasn't that it was OP. If that were the problem, it would have been nerfed and kept. The problem was that it was an everyman unit with no role to speak of. Its only defining feature was that it couldn't hit air, and that's already a defining feature of most mech units. I agree that there should be a unit to bolster mech so that bio isn't the only option in TvP and SkyToss makes its long-awaited return, but it has to have an actual role on the ground.
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Yeah, hots beta is very boring for Terrans right now. Basically, there are no toys to play with at all. It is just like playing WoL against new enhanced Zerg, and WoL Protoss.
So boring.... ((
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On September 19 2012 05:04 Aristotle7 wrote:Yeah, hots beta is very boring for Terrans right now. Basically, there are no toys to play with at all. It is just like playing WoL against new enhanced Zerg, and WoL Protoss. So boring.... ((
Sucks being human, all these other alien life forms evolve so much faster
Meanwhile, we're just rediscovering mines and making our cars transform into autobots
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battlle hellion has a pretty ugly model as well. It looks like a chicken when zoomed out (normal camera).
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On September 19 2012 05:42 wcr.4fun wrote: battlle hellion has a pretty ugly model as well. It looks like a chicken when zoomed out (normal camera).
I always took those to be bat wings. Because, y'know... It's a Firebat.
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I'm terran and i'm pumped for HotS. Personally, I think widow mine and battle hellion are more than enough changes to satisfy me (hoping widow mine gets some tweaks though). My only concern is that the tempest outranges the siege tank. If they want mech to be viable in tvp please don't let a ship snipe my siege tank from 15 range.
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“So here's our thinking on the new patch so far:- Swarm Host is still amazing vs. Toss, not very good vs. Terran/Zerg. Not planning on a change this week, we would like wait at least a week.- Widow Mine is decent vs. Zerg not so much vs. the other two races. We're planning on a buff here this week especially vs. Toss/Terran.- Mothership Core - Purify still feels a bit easy to just simply run from. …”
-David Kim
WIDOW MINE BUFFFF!!!!!!
(I'm having trouble loading the rest of the comment... anyone else have success?)
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United Kingdom14464 Posts
On September 19 2012 06:20 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +“So here's our thinking on the new patch so far:- Swarm Host is still amazing vs. Toss, not very good vs. Terran/Zerg. Not planning on a change this week, we would like wait at least a week.- Widow Mine is decent vs. Zerg not so much vs. the other two races. We're planning on a buff here this week especially vs. Toss/Terran.- Mothership Core - Purify still feels a bit easy to just simply run from. …” -David KimWIDOW MINE BUFFFF!!!!!! (I'm having trouble loading the rest of the comment... anyone else have success?) It's on the esports feedback page which only pros I believe can post/look at, the link you gave is actually the furthest into that post I can find, and YAY!!! Wooooh, the widow mine is such a fucking awesome unit, hopefully the buff is good, definitely should be 1 supply to me so it can see more use.
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On September 19 2012 06:47 MCDayC wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 06:20 SarcasmMonster wrote:“So here's our thinking on the new patch so far:- Swarm Host is still amazing vs. Toss, not very good vs. Terran/Zerg. Not planning on a change this week, we would like wait at least a week.- Widow Mine is decent vs. Zerg not so much vs. the other two races. We're planning on a buff here this week especially vs. Toss/Terran.- Mothership Core - Purify still feels a bit easy to just simply run from. …” -David KimWIDOW MINE BUFFFF!!!!!! (I'm having trouble loading the rest of the comment... anyone else have success?) It's on the esports feedback page which only pros I believe can post/look at, the link you gave is actually the furthest into that post I can find, and YAY!!! Wooooh, the widow mine is such a fucking awesome unit, hopefully the buff is good, definitely should be 1 supply to me so it can see more use.
Ya hopefully the buff is one supply. Looks like Purify might get another buff... which I'm not 100% sure its needed.
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From DB:
Carrier and Tempest are staying for sure.
Warhound is gone. There is no top-secret unit waiting in the wings to jump in. It's out.
I cannot promise that something won't happen later (I am not yet able to see into the future) but currently there are no plans for another Terran unit.
Well, that's actually pretty shocking.
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On September 19 2012 06:58 Crawdad wrote:From DB: Well, that's actually pretty shocking.
WTF cant they think of any other mech unit? If not then they should just implement the Goliath or at least buff ravens or tanks I want to mech TvP :<
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I would like to have a good spellcasting unit for Terran, cause both ghost and raven are shit, compared to hightemplar, infestor and viper.Ravenspells need simply to much energy and hard to procude much of them and ghost is really not something, wich would scare you, cause they don't deal any big damage to armys, besides that, they are so expensive.
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On September 19 2012 06:58 Crawdad wrote:From DB: Show nested quote + Carrier and Tempest are staying for sure.
Warhound is gone. There is no top-secret unit waiting in the wings to jump in. It's out.
I cannot promise that something won't happen later (I am not yet able to see into the future) but currently there are no plans for another Terran unit.
Well, that's actually pretty shocking. I actually think it's pretty funny and very in-character. He thinks he can make mech work in TvP with battle-hellion and widow-mine alone. I cannot wait to find out blizzards next change to terran.
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On September 19 2012 07:59 pmp10 wrote: I actually think it's pretty funny and very in-character. He thinks he can make mech work in TvP with battle-hellion and widow-mine alone. I cannot wait to find out blizzards next change to terran.
"The Widow mine's damage now ignores Protoss shields."
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United Kingdom12009 Posts
All that needs to happen to make mech viable in TvP is to give mech a way of working without needing 10-15 ghosts (which you have to do now, trust me, I play mech).
Mass immortal just completely shuts down mech, it's so unbelievable cost efficient that it's unreal. If you can give mech a way to punish mass, mass immortal on the factory then this problem could be avoided completely.
I really hope they don't give up on mech TvP. It'd be so nice to finally be able to go mech and not feel at a complete disadvantage as soon as you move your first workers.
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Really not happy with the Blizzard dev team, nothing to replace the Warhound... are you freaking kidding me? What's left is all you could come up with in 2 or so years?
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So Terran gets a gimped spider mine and a mechanical firebat that took ten minutes to go through concept design. That's it. Nothing else. Tell me Blizzard why any Terran should pay $40 for this expansion in what can only be described as lazyness on the part of the developers?
Can't help but look back and laugh at all the people who were always saying "just wait for the expansions."
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The battle hellion will be quite effective versus both zerglings and zealots. These were key vulnerabilities of factory-based play styles, so having a counter in place will allow for some confidence in the resurgence of mech. The widow mine is harder to read, but there might be creative uses for it that could add depth to the game. If the combination of siege tanks, battle hellions and widow mines allows for positional play, even versus protoss, then I think this expansion definitely delivers for people that specifically like mech play styles, whether they are viewers or players.
I don't think it's enough though. Blizzard was quite clear on considering the fundamentals of Starcraft II to be a success, with only a few match-ups having some issues. I think it's a pity, I mean, if you compare this game to some of its competition, such as dota, wc3 or brood war (or chess for that matter), then in my opinion it falls short and this expansion was their final chance to address this. So far I have seen no indication that the expansion is going to do anything other than replacing the current metagame with a newer, slightly superior one.
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Canada13372 Posts
I think they need to do a lot more invites before we can see where the game is really going.
With a widow mine buff, we might actually see some interesting use. Keep in mind, there are a lot of WoL tournaments coming up. I think if the beta goes into early2013 we will see some awesome changes.
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On September 19 2012 08:45 ZeromuS wrote: I think they need to do a lot more invites before we can see where the game is really going.
With a widow mine buff, we might actually see some interesting use. Keep in mind, there are a lot of WoL tournaments coming up. I think if the beta goes into early2013 we will see some awesome changes.
Into the fucking ground.
Terran has no good units that were introduced. We're now going to be facing problems that we haven't faced in the past except with the SAME units that we've been attempting to use to adapt as the meta game has evolved. There comes a point in time where these units won't be able to work in sync to win games because we won't be able to handle the new and powerful combinations of units. The new mines are going to be shut down so hard by protoss players and zerg players once they start walking around with overseers and observers, which many already do.
HotS looks like shit for Terrans at this point in time because of Blizzard's lack of true effort to fulfill the unit role Terran needs.
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lol 2 years for the battle hellion and the widow mine. LOL :D
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On September 19 2012 06:58 Crawdad wrote:From DB: Show nested quote + Carrier and Tempest are staying for sure.
Warhound is gone. There is no top-secret unit waiting in the wings to jump in. It's out.
I cannot promise that something won't happen later (I am not yet able to see into the future) but currently there are no plans for another Terran unit.
Well, that's actually pretty shocking.
Wow...simply wow. Terran really got the shaft now. I hope they change their minds.
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On September 19 2012 09:06 wcr.4fun wrote: lol 2 years for the battle hellion and the widow mine. LOL :D Pretty much sums it up, I'd feel so deflated as a terran right now.
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On September 19 2012 08:04 Qikz wrote: All that needs to happen to make mech viable in TvP is to give mech a way of working without needing 10-15 ghosts (which you have to do now, trust me, I play mech).
Mass immortal just completely shuts down mech, it's so unbelievable cost efficient that it's unreal. If you can give mech a way to punish mass, mass immortal on the factory then this problem could be avoided completely.
I really hope they don't give up on mech TvP. It'd be so nice to finally be able to go mech and not feel at a complete disadvantage as soon as you move your first workers. I don't know but for me mass banshee support works fine without ghosts in WoL - though ghosts are definatly a great addition as well.
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On September 19 2012 09:16 neoghaleon55 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 06:58 Crawdad wrote:From DB: Carrier and Tempest are staying for sure.
Warhound is gone. There is no top-secret unit waiting in the wings to jump in. It's out.
I cannot promise that something won't happen later (I am not yet able to see into the future) but currently there are no plans for another Terran unit.
Well, that's actually pretty shocking. Wow...simply wow. Terran really got the shaft now. I hope they change their minds.
2 new units, complete overhaul of the reaper, 2buffs to existing units (Raven speed, Yamato canon) I mean, zerg "only" got two new units and a "speed" upgrade for hydras that doesn't even work like a speed upgrade and Protoss "only" got 3 new units.
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On September 19 2012 13:20 Doko wrote: what changed for yamato? 125 energy --> 100 energy
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On September 19 2012 13:15 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 09:16 neoghaleon55 wrote:On September 19 2012 06:58 Crawdad wrote:From DB: Carrier and Tempest are staying for sure.
Warhound is gone. There is no top-secret unit waiting in the wings to jump in. It's out.
I cannot promise that something won't happen later (I am not yet able to see into the future) but currently there are no plans for another Terran unit.
Well, that's actually pretty shocking. Wow...simply wow. Terran really got the shaft now. I hope they change their minds. 2 new units, complete overhaul of the reaper, 2buffs to existing units (Raven speed, Yamato canon) I mean, zerg "only" got two new units and a "speed" upgrade for hydras that doesn't even work like a speed upgrade and Protoss "only" got 3 new units.
Widow Mine = Useless, worse version of the spider mines laid by Vultures in BW. Reaper = either UP or OP. Its a unit just like the warhound in that it is too good at what it does or, if nerfed, is pretty much useless. Battle Hellion = Just a remade hellion good at combating very specific strategies against P/Z lategame compositions.
And those upgrades to existing units....
Its just stale game design. Every single change/addition (with the exception of the practically useless widow mine) is something that could have been put in as an easy patch for WoL. Recycled content and things that could honestly just be implemented right now shouldn't justify being called an expansion
Litterally, right now there is nothing in the HOTS Terran arsenal that can justify paying for an expansion that gives us nothing new.
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On September 19 2012 13:41 Kinaesthetic wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 13:15 Big J wrote:On September 19 2012 09:16 neoghaleon55 wrote:On September 19 2012 06:58 Crawdad wrote:From DB: Carrier and Tempest are staying for sure.
Warhound is gone. There is no top-secret unit waiting in the wings to jump in. It's out.
I cannot promise that something won't happen later (I am not yet able to see into the future) but currently there are no plans for another Terran unit.
Well, that's actually pretty shocking. Wow...simply wow. Terran really got the shaft now. I hope they change their minds. 2 new units, complete overhaul of the reaper, 2buffs to existing units (Raven speed, Yamato canon) I mean, zerg "only" got two new units and a "speed" upgrade for hydras that doesn't even work like a speed upgrade and Protoss "only" got 3 new units. Widow Mine = Useless, worse version of the spider mines laid by Vultures in BW. Reaper = either UP or OP. Its a unit just like the warhound in that it is too good at what it does or, if nerfed, is pretty much useless. Battle Hellion = Just a remade hellion good at combating very specific strategies against P/Z lategame compositions. And those upgrades to existing units.... Its just stale game design. Every single change/addition (with the exception of the practically useless widow mine) is something that could have been put in as an easy patch for WoL. Recycled content and things that could honestly just be implemented right now shouldn't justify being called an expansion Litterally, right now there is nothing in the HOTS Terran arsenal that can justify paying for an expansion that gives us nothing new. wow, so you figuered out HotS before balancing/designing it is even finished... lol and fyi, widow mine gets a buff in the next patch. Also I can't see vultures or spider mines in SC2, so comparing them in terms of strength makes no sense. (guess what: hydralisks - just a worse version of the marine; roaches - just a worse version of the marauder)
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To be honest, I think Terran was the most rounded and varied race in WoL, and so they don't need as much added in HotS to maintain significant variety in possible plays. However, some matchups have a lot less variety in compositions than others - especially late-game TvP.
I'm thinking that instead of new units, new upgrades could be utilized to allow for a larger variety of units to be used in a variety of matchups. Here are some things I thought up:
Improved Circuitry - Feedback no longer deals damage to Terran mechanical units that use energy - banshee, thor, BC, raven - (or perhaps just deals reduced damage - perhaps 50% or whatever ends up being balanced) though it still drains all energy. This would prevent feedback from insta-countering all Terran late-game units - feedback would still be very useful as it would drain energy, but it won't also instagib ravens/banshees and heavily damage BCs/thors. If this upgrade needs a more general purpose than simply countering one aspect of Protoss play, it could also cause energy to regenerate 10% faster.
Modular Turrets - This upgrade would either allow turrets to be salvageable as bunkers are, or allow them to transform and pack up to a mobile mode (effectively making them like spore crawlers). The idea is to give mech some ability to have some sort of fairly inexpensive, repositionable but not highly mobile anti-air, in addition to just the thor.
Standardized Assembly - This factory-techlab upgrade (starport required) allows vikings in ground-mode to be built from the factory, and gives vikings vehicle upgrades instead of ship upgrades (or whichever upgrade of the two is higher). This would allow vikings to more easily become part of the mech composition. If implemented, the above Modular Turrets might not be needed.
Defensive matrix - Might help BC's avoid getting instagibbed by corrupters and potentially more useful in all matchups when you have smaller numbers of BCs that you need to keep alive, switching to yamato once you have reached critical mass.
Also they could implement some small things like making raven autoturrets scale damage and armor with ship upgrades, and perhaps be treated as non-armored units, as currently autoturrets are quite underutilized. In addition, Thor 150mm cannon could probably also use a range increase from 7 to 8.
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On September 19 2012 08:56 stevarius wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 08:45 ZeromuS wrote: I think they need to do a lot more invites before we can see where the game is really going.
With a widow mine buff, we might actually see some interesting use. Keep in mind, there are a lot of WoL tournaments coming up. I think if the beta goes into early2013 we will see some awesome changes. Into the fucking ground. Terran has no good units that were introduced. We're now going to be facing problems that we haven't faced in the past except with the SAME units that we've been attempting to use to adapt as the meta game has evolved. There comes a point in time where these units won't be able to work in sync to win games because we won't be able to handle the new and powerful combinations of units. The new mines are going to be shut down so hard by protoss players and zerg players once they start walking around with overseers and observers, which many already do. HotS looks like shit for Terrans at this point in time because of Blizzard's lack of true effort to fulfill the unit role Terran needs.
Except....Terran doesn't NEED any other rolls filled...You obviously have very little experience with terran if you honestly think its in rough shape and is full of holes. Protoss is full of holes design wise, terran is the most complete race in the game, you can try to deny it but it just makes you look dumb.
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On September 19 2012 14:49 Asymptote1 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 08:56 stevarius wrote:On September 19 2012 08:45 ZeromuS wrote: I think they need to do a lot more invites before we can see where the game is really going.
With a widow mine buff, we might actually see some interesting use. Keep in mind, there are a lot of WoL tournaments coming up. I think if the beta goes into early2013 we will see some awesome changes. Into the fucking ground. Terran has no good units that were introduced. We're now going to be facing problems that we haven't faced in the past except with the SAME units that we've been attempting to use to adapt as the meta game has evolved. There comes a point in time where these units won't be able to work in sync to win games because we won't be able to handle the new and powerful combinations of units. The new mines are going to be shut down so hard by protoss players and zerg players once they start walking around with overseers and observers, which many already do. HotS looks like shit for Terrans at this point in time because of Blizzard's lack of true effort to fulfill the unit role Terran needs. Except....Terran doesn't NEED any other rolls filled...You obviously have very little experience with terran if you honestly think its in rough shape and is full of holes. Protoss is full of holes design wise, terran is the most complete race in the game, you can try to deny it but it just makes you look dumb.
and so its allright for terran players to pay for something thats could be done in a regular balance patch ?
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Okay, I think this idea would pretty well fix the Widow mine:
If the Widow mine targets an armored unit, have the Widow mine deal 300 damage to the target, while dealing NO splash damage to the surrounding area. If it targets a light unit, have it deal 50 damage to all light units in an area, including the target. If it targets a unit with no armor tag, have it deal the same damage it does now.
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On September 19 2012 14:51 zeross wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 14:49 Asymptote1 wrote:On September 19 2012 08:56 stevarius wrote:On September 19 2012 08:45 ZeromuS wrote: I think they need to do a lot more invites before we can see where the game is really going.
With a widow mine buff, we might actually see some interesting use. Keep in mind, there are a lot of WoL tournaments coming up. I think if the beta goes into early2013 we will see some awesome changes. Into the fucking ground. Terran has no good units that were introduced. We're now going to be facing problems that we haven't faced in the past except with the SAME units that we've been attempting to use to adapt as the meta game has evolved. There comes a point in time where these units won't be able to work in sync to win games because we won't be able to handle the new and powerful combinations of units. The new mines are going to be shut down so hard by protoss players and zerg players once they start walking around with overseers and observers, which many already do. HotS looks like shit for Terrans at this point in time because of Blizzard's lack of true effort to fulfill the unit role Terran needs. Except....Terran doesn't NEED any other rolls filled...You obviously have very little experience with terran if you honestly think its in rough shape and is full of holes. Protoss is full of holes design wise, terran is the most complete race in the game, you can try to deny it but it just makes you look dumb. and so its allright for terran players to pay for something thats could be done in a regular balance patch ? I hope you like singleplayer. That's blizzard's plan for you atm it seems.
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Whether or not Terrans get new units is irrelevant, the goal of the expansion is to address imbalances in the metagame thru' game design for the PvT and PvP match ups, and if all they did was encourage Mech vs Protoss and Air vs Terran the patch would be a success.
Battle Hellions and Widow Mines aside, you shouldn't be asking yourself what new units are you going to get, but what game design changes do you need to make Mech competitive vs Protoss. For Terran, it could be something as simple as removing the energy bar from Thor, adding a Defense Matrix upgrade to the Medivac or adding the +50% health to Viking Assault Mode instead of the Battle Hellion. If we're talking about making Terran end game units more viable vs Zerg end game units, it could be something as simple as reducing Raven build time to 40 seconds, reducing the energy cost of Auto Turrets to 25, increasing Battle Cruiser air to air damage to 8 or replacing the Ghost's Snipe with Irradiate. If we're talking about giving Terrans more options to break Siege Tank lines, then we could add Siege Tank fire onto Point Defense Drone.
None of the balance issues for Terrans "require" a new unit, I'd prefer Blizzard balance or re-design the units we have in order to address our metagame woes then add new units that A-move and autocast their way to victory for us. New units should only be added to the game when balancing and redesigning old units isn't a conceivable option, Swarmhosts and Vipers are the best examples of units that were designed to address Zerg metagame perfectly where every other unit I've seen so far appears to be complete shit in comparison (altho' Widow Mines are cool).
Adding units just to add units ruins games, we should all just be thankful Blizzard knows what the problems are for SC2, they are trying to address them and they are listening to the Pros for feedback. Beta has a long way to go, and it'll get there. You can't judge the outcome of the final product based on the preliminary patches, and you should be happy they even let you see and participate in the beta instead of just closing it to the public and making you wait. You have a chance to see what's going on and throw in your 2 cents, do it constructively and you may find some one who will listen to you.
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On September 19 2012 14:16 delayed reflex wrote: To be honest, I think Terran was the most rounded and varied race in WoL, and so they don't need as much added in HotS to maintain significant variety in possible plays. However, some matchups have a lot less variety in compositions than others - especially late-game TvP.
I'm thinking that instead of new units, new upgrades could be utilized to allow for a larger variety of units to be used in a variety of matchups. Here are some things I thought up:
Improved Circuitry - Feedback no longer deals damage to Terran mechanical units that use energy - banshee, thor, BC, raven - (or perhaps just deals reduced damage - perhaps 50% or whatever ends up being balanced) though it still drains all energy. This would prevent feedback from insta-countering all Terran late-game units - feedback would still be very useful as it would drain energy, but it won't also instagib ravens/banshees and heavily damage BCs/thors. If this upgrade needs a more general purpose than simply countering one aspect of Protoss play, it could also cause energy to regenerate 10% faster.
Modular Turrets - This upgrade would either allow turrets to be salvageable as bunkers are, or allow them to transform and pack up to a mobile mode (effectively making them like spore crawlers). The idea is to give mech some ability to have some sort of fairly inexpensive, repositionable but not highly mobile anti-air, in addition to just the thor.
Standardized Assembly - This factory-techlab upgrade (starport required) allows vikings in ground-mode to be built from the factory, and gives vikings vehicle upgrades instead of ship upgrades (or whichever upgrade of the two is higher). This would allow vikings to more easily become part of the mech composition. If implemented, the above Modular Turrets might not be needed.
Defensive matrix - Might help BC's avoid getting instagibbed by corrupters and potentially more useful in all matchups when you have smaller numbers of BCs that you need to keep alive, switching to yamato once you have reached critical mass.
Also they could implement some small things like making raven autoturrets scale damage and armor with ship upgrades, and perhaps be treated as non-armored units, as currently autoturrets are quite underutilized. In addition, Thor 150mm cannon could probably also use a range increase from 7 to 8.
Interesting suggestions, you should post them up on the Blizzard HotS beta forums so they are possibly seen.
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Maybe have the widow mine spawn spider mines? They can make it so that it spawns spider mines for a certain amount of minerals or it just comes with 3 like the vulture
1)this way its more like a widow spider 2)allows mines to be massed much more without taking up build time on the factory 3)further emphasizes microing widow mines and keeping it alive before you decide to actually use the widow mine itself. 4)the old BW 'moving factory' theme from protoss is back even though its on terran now if spider mines can be made in the widow mine or at least part of the vulture is back.
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On September 19 2012 16:31 MasterCynical wrote: Maybe have the widow mine spawn spider mines? They can make it so that it spawns spider mines for a certain amount of minerals or it just comes with 3 like the vulture
1)this way its more like a widow spider 2)allows mines to be massed much more without taking up build time on the factory 3)further emphasizes microing widow mines and keeping it alive before you decide to actually use the widow mine itself. 4)the old BW 'moving factory' theme from protoss is back even though its on terran now if spider mines can be made in the widow mine or at least part of the vulture is back. yo dawg
funny idea
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United Kingdom14464 Posts
On September 19 2012 13:41 Kinaesthetic wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 13:15 Big J wrote:On September 19 2012 09:16 neoghaleon55 wrote:On September 19 2012 06:58 Crawdad wrote:From DB: Carrier and Tempest are staying for sure.
Warhound is gone. There is no top-secret unit waiting in the wings to jump in. It's out.
I cannot promise that something won't happen later (I am not yet able to see into the future) but currently there are no plans for another Terran unit.
Well, that's actually pretty shocking. Wow...simply wow. Terran really got the shaft now. I hope they change their minds. 2 new units, complete overhaul of the reaper, 2buffs to existing units (Raven speed, Yamato canon) I mean, zerg "only" got two new units and a "speed" upgrade for hydras that doesn't even work like a speed upgrade and Protoss "only" got 3 new units. Widow Mine = Useless, worse version of the spider mines laid by Vultures in BW. Reaper = either UP or OP. Its a unit just like the warhound in that it is too good at what it does or, if nerfed, is pretty much useless. Battle Hellion = Just a remade hellion good at combating very specific strategies against P/Z lategame compositions. And those upgrades to existing units.... Its just stale game design. Every single change/addition (with the exception of the practically useless widow mine) is something that could have been put in as an easy patch for WoL. Recycled content and things that could honestly just be implemented right now shouldn't justify being called an expansion Litterally, right now there is nothing in the HOTS Terran arsenal that can justify paying for an expansion that gives us nothing new. But don't you realise that these are just current judgements on balance, and not on whether HotS is worth it for terran.
Whats significant is that you are getting changes (and he didn't even mention the small tank buff from upgrades), 2 units plus tweaks, which is pretty much the same as Zerg. People saying Terran have got shafted seems really weird, they're only saying it cause one of the units introduced hasn't yet found a role (widow mine) due to balance, and because the other one may be improperly placed in the tech tree (BH).
Neither of those things are permanent, and both units have the potential to be game changing for Terran.
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sry but battle hellion isn't really a new unit, the only new unit is the widow mine, nothing else
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United Kingdom14464 Posts
On September 19 2012 16:51 Garmer wrote: sry but battle hellion isn't really a new unit, the only new unit is the widow mine, nothing else Its new enough that in completely changes the role of the hellion while in BH form, to me thats almost the same as a new unit, and certainly enough for the purposes of discussing how many changes terran have received in HotS.
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On September 19 2012 16:53 MCDayC wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 16:51 Garmer wrote: sry but battle hellion isn't really a new unit, the only new unit is the widow mine, nothing else Its new enough that in completely changes the role of the hellion while in BH form, to me thats almost the same as a new unit, and certainly enough for the purposes of discussing how many changes terran have received in HotS.
yeah, of course it's a new unit. It's like saying banelings aren't a unit on their own, because they get morphed from zerglings.
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On September 19 2012 16:49 MCDayC wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 13:41 Kinaesthetic wrote:On September 19 2012 13:15 Big J wrote:On September 19 2012 09:16 neoghaleon55 wrote:On September 19 2012 06:58 Crawdad wrote:From DB: Carrier and Tempest are staying for sure.
Warhound is gone. There is no top-secret unit waiting in the wings to jump in. It's out.
I cannot promise that something won't happen later (I am not yet able to see into the future) but currently there are no plans for another Terran unit.
Well, that's actually pretty shocking. Wow...simply wow. Terran really got the shaft now. I hope they change their minds. 2 new units, complete overhaul of the reaper, 2buffs to existing units (Raven speed, Yamato canon) I mean, zerg "only" got two new units and a "speed" upgrade for hydras that doesn't even work like a speed upgrade and Protoss "only" got 3 new units. Widow Mine = Useless, worse version of the spider mines laid by Vultures in BW. Reaper = either UP or OP. Its a unit just like the warhound in that it is too good at what it does or, if nerfed, is pretty much useless. Battle Hellion = Just a remade hellion good at combating very specific strategies against P/Z lategame compositions. And those upgrades to existing units.... Its just stale game design. Every single change/addition (with the exception of the practically useless widow mine) is something that could have been put in as an easy patch for WoL. Recycled content and things that could honestly just be implemented right now shouldn't justify being called an expansion Litterally, right now there is nothing in the HOTS Terran arsenal that can justify paying for an expansion that gives us nothing new. But don't you realise that these are just current judgements on balance, and not on whether HotS is worth if for terran. Whats significant is that you are getting changes (and he didn't even mention the small tank buff from upgrades), 2 units plus tweaks, which is pretty much the same as Zerg. People saying Terran have got shafted seems really weird, they're only saying it cause one of the units introduced hasn't yet found a role (widow mine) due to balance, and because the other one may be improperly placed in the tech tree (BH). Neither of those things are permanent, and both units have the potential to be game changing for Terran.
I don't see how it's weird at all. I've played mostly protoss and it's clear that terran in it's current HotS state just sucks in terms of interesting units and interesting new ways to play. Zerg has two new interesting units plus an ultra and hydra upgrade. Terran has the widow mine and an upgrade for the hellion. So it pretty much isn't the same
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United Kingdom14464 Posts
On September 19 2012 17:01 happyness wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 16:49 MCDayC wrote:On September 19 2012 13:41 Kinaesthetic wrote:On September 19 2012 13:15 Big J wrote:On September 19 2012 09:16 neoghaleon55 wrote:On September 19 2012 06:58 Crawdad wrote:From DB: Carrier and Tempest are staying for sure.
Warhound is gone. There is no top-secret unit waiting in the wings to jump in. It's out.
I cannot promise that something won't happen later (I am not yet able to see into the future) but currently there are no plans for another Terran unit.
Well, that's actually pretty shocking. Wow...simply wow. Terran really got the shaft now. I hope they change their minds. 2 new units, complete overhaul of the reaper, 2buffs to existing units (Raven speed, Yamato canon) I mean, zerg "only" got two new units and a "speed" upgrade for hydras that doesn't even work like a speed upgrade and Protoss "only" got 3 new units. Widow Mine = Useless, worse version of the spider mines laid by Vultures in BW. Reaper = either UP or OP. Its a unit just like the warhound in that it is too good at what it does or, if nerfed, is pretty much useless. Battle Hellion = Just a remade hellion good at combating very specific strategies against P/Z lategame compositions. And those upgrades to existing units.... Its just stale game design. Every single change/addition (with the exception of the practically useless widow mine) is something that could have been put in as an easy patch for WoL. Recycled content and things that could honestly just be implemented right now shouldn't justify being called an expansion Litterally, right now there is nothing in the HOTS Terran arsenal that can justify paying for an expansion that gives us nothing new. But don't you realise that these are just current judgements on balance, and not on whether HotS is worth if for terran. Whats significant is that you are getting changes (and he didn't even mention the small tank buff from upgrades), 2 units plus tweaks, which is pretty much the same as Zerg. People saying Terran have got shafted seems really weird, they're only saying it cause one of the units introduced hasn't yet found a role (widow mine) due to balance, and because the other one may be improperly placed in the tech tree (BH). Neither of those things are permanent, and both units have the potential to be game changing for Terran. I don't see how it's weird at all. I've played mostly protoss and it's clear that terran in it's current HotS state just sucks in terms of interesting units and interesting new ways to play. Zerg has two new interesting units plus an ultra and hydra upgrade. Terran has the widow mine and an upgrade for the hellion. So it pretty much isn't the same When you say interesting, you mean that the widow mine currently isn't functioning in a way to be impactful on the game? Cause I'd definitely wouldn't agree that the widow mine isn't interesting. I think its the most interesting unit added in the game, maybe tied with the swarmhost. And if your answer is that its too weak to make an impact and therefore be "interesting" then, while I don't disagree with you, can't you see thats just a current assessment of balance, and could easily change within the next day, week, month, by the end of beta, or in the game's lifespan? The widow mine will be useful at some point, Blizzard are gonna make sure of it.
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On September 19 2012 16:59 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 16:53 MCDayC wrote:On September 19 2012 16:51 Garmer wrote: sry but battle hellion isn't really a new unit, the only new unit is the widow mine, nothing else Its new enough that in completely changes the role of the hellion while in BH form, to me thats almost the same as a new unit, and certainly enough for the purposes of discussing how many changes terran have received in HotS. yeah, of course it's a new unit. It's like saying banelings aren't a unit on their own, because they get morphed from zerglings. no lol, you can't compare the two, hellion and battlehellion have also the same kinda of attack
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On September 19 2012 17:06 Garmer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 16:59 Big J wrote:On September 19 2012 16:53 MCDayC wrote:On September 19 2012 16:51 Garmer wrote: sry but battle hellion isn't really a new unit, the only new unit is the widow mine, nothing else Its new enough that in completely changes the role of the hellion while in BH form, to me thats almost the same as a new unit, and certainly enough for the purposes of discussing how many changes terran have received in HotS. yeah, of course it's a new unit. It's like saying banelings aren't a unit on their own, because they get morphed from zerglings. no lol, you can't compare the two, hellion and battlehellion have also the same kinda of attack
No they don't. The battle hellion has more damage and deals it in a cone - the way melee units will engage it. Add to that that it has nearly as much health as a roach. On the other side you have the hellion, fragile, fast, less damage, but deals it in a line with 5range.
sry for the baneling example. I thought your thought process was that it is essentially just an "upgrade" of the hellion. I'd actually go with "it's like saying roaches and hydralisks are the same unit".
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i don't get what zerg and protoss players even try to do in this thread...
"no you have no right to be disappointed!"
yes we have, yes we can, yes we are ~~
the mine needs changes, as it stands now, you only make 2 of them if you expect an early allin, and then never again. i did not understand the need to break siegelines head on in tvt to begin with, and i expect tvz to work in hots, but tvp was the single goal to make mech viable, and if blizzard decides to give up after 2 weeks of hardly trying, then that is quite disappointing.
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On September 19 2012 16:59 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 16:53 MCDayC wrote:On September 19 2012 16:51 Garmer wrote: sry but battle hellion isn't really a new unit, the only new unit is the widow mine, nothing else Its new enough that in completely changes the role of the hellion while in BH form, to me thats almost the same as a new unit, and certainly enough for the purposes of discussing how many changes terran have received in HotS. yeah, of course it's a new unit. It's like saying banelings aren't a unit on their own, because they get morphed from zerglings. No, you really can't compare morphing with transformation. Tanks and Siege Tanks are the same units, but they role is different in different mode. Same as Vikings and Hellions. But, Banelings, Brood Lords and Overseers are completely different units, it is not just an ability to change modes, those units are completely new units, like that they are out from the building.
Whole point of transformations is that unit has more roles, and that can switch between them, so instead of 2 units with different roles, you have 1 unit with both roles. Morphed units are just new units, fresh from Hatchery, they just are being produced differently.
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I thought that the warhound, a factory+tech add-on unit, would allow terran players for a smooth transition to battle cruisers. As for new gameplay terrans can now go reapers, widow mines and battle hellions in the early game.
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I would have liked to have a new mech unit. I don't enjoy bio as much due to being micro intensive.
Battle hellion is a nice feature to the hellion but it's not a new unit.
Just bring back the damn goliath.
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On September 19 2012 17:35 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 17:06 Garmer wrote:On September 19 2012 16:59 Big J wrote:On September 19 2012 16:53 MCDayC wrote:On September 19 2012 16:51 Garmer wrote: sry but battle hellion isn't really a new unit, the only new unit is the widow mine, nothing else Its new enough that in completely changes the role of the hellion while in BH form, to me thats almost the same as a new unit, and certainly enough for the purposes of discussing how many changes terran have received in HotS. yeah, of course it's a new unit. It's like saying banelings aren't a unit on their own, because they get morphed from zerglings. no lol, you can't compare the two, hellion and battlehellion have also the same kinda of attack No they don't. The battle hellion has more damage and deals it in a cone - the way melee units will engage it. Add to that that it has nearly as much health as a roach. On the other side you have the hellion, fragile, fast, less damage, but deals it in a line with 5range. sry for the baneling example. I thought your thought process was that it is essentially just an "upgrade" of the hellion. I'd actually go with "it's like saying roaches and hydralisks are the same unit". More correct would be "It's like saying landed and airbourne Vikings are the same unit".
Which they are.
However I agree that Battle Hellion is all right, even though it's really bleh and uninspired. I don't see how the Terran researchers could have developed something like that and what I really don't get is how it suddenly increases its hitpoints. Do they keep extra plating on the backseats?
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On September 19 2012 18:35 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 16:59 Big J wrote:On September 19 2012 16:53 MCDayC wrote:On September 19 2012 16:51 Garmer wrote: sry but battle hellion isn't really a new unit, the only new unit is the widow mine, nothing else Its new enough that in completely changes the role of the hellion while in BH form, to me thats almost the same as a new unit, and certainly enough for the purposes of discussing how many changes terran have received in HotS. yeah, of course it's a new unit. It's like saying banelings aren't a unit on their own, because they get morphed from zerglings. No, you really can't compare morphing with transformation. Tanks and Siege Tanks are the same units, but they role is different in different mode. Same as Vikings and Hellions. But, Banelings, Brood Lords and Overseers are completely different units, it is not just an ability to change modes, those units are completely new units, like that they are out from the building. Whole point of transformations is that unit has more roles, and that can switch between them, so instead of 2 units with different roles, you have 1 unit with both roles. Morphed units are just new units, fresh from Hatchery, they just are being produced differently.
And? A unit that is given multiple roles is superior to a new unit that has a new roll because you get twice as many functions in one unit and have to produce twice as few units overall to provide the same functionality or you have twice as many units that can perform the same functionality.
Getting a transforming unit is better than getting a new unit, period.
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On September 19 2012 19:29 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 17:35 Big J wrote:On September 19 2012 17:06 Garmer wrote:On September 19 2012 16:59 Big J wrote:On September 19 2012 16:53 MCDayC wrote:On September 19 2012 16:51 Garmer wrote: sry but battle hellion isn't really a new unit, the only new unit is the widow mine, nothing else Its new enough that in completely changes the role of the hellion while in BH form, to me thats almost the same as a new unit, and certainly enough for the purposes of discussing how many changes terran have received in HotS. yeah, of course it's a new unit. It's like saying banelings aren't a unit on their own, because they get morphed from zerglings. no lol, you can't compare the two, hellion and battlehellion have also the same kinda of attack No they don't. The battle hellion has more damage and deals it in a cone - the way melee units will engage it. Add to that that it has nearly as much health as a roach. On the other side you have the hellion, fragile, fast, less damage, but deals it in a line with 5range. sry for the baneling example. I thought your thought process was that it is essentially just an "upgrade" of the hellion. I'd actually go with "it's like saying roaches and hydralisks are the same unit". More correct would be "It's like saying landed and airbourne Vikings are the same unit". Which they are. However I agree that Battle Hellion is all right, even though it's really bleh and uninspired. I don't see how the Terran researchers could have developed something like that and what I really don't get is how it suddenly increases its hitpoints. Do they keep extra plating on the backseats?
well, yeah it's somewhat like the viking example. And then it is like a different unit, because it fullfills a completle different role. Just like the battle hellion has a different role than the hellion.
Also I don't think it's uninspired. I love that ever Terran mech unit gets a slow or stationary mode. Makes it very mechy. I'd hope for something similar for the Thor in LotV.
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On September 19 2012 19:36 MoonCricket wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 18:35 Ramiz1989 wrote:On September 19 2012 16:59 Big J wrote:On September 19 2012 16:53 MCDayC wrote:On September 19 2012 16:51 Garmer wrote: sry but battle hellion isn't really a new unit, the only new unit is the widow mine, nothing else Its new enough that in completely changes the role of the hellion while in BH form, to me thats almost the same as a new unit, and certainly enough for the purposes of discussing how many changes terran have received in HotS. yeah, of course it's a new unit. It's like saying banelings aren't a unit on their own, because they get morphed from zerglings. No, you really can't compare morphing with transformation. Tanks and Siege Tanks are the same units, but they role is different in different mode. Same as Vikings and Hellions. But, Banelings, Brood Lords and Overseers are completely different units, it is not just an ability to change modes, those units are completely new units, like that they are out from the building. Whole point of transformations is that unit has more roles, and that can switch between them, so instead of 2 units with different roles, you have 1 unit with both roles. Morphed units are just new units, fresh from Hatchery, they just are being produced differently. And? A unit that is given multiple roles is superior to a new unit that has a new roll because you get twice as many functions in one unit and have to produce twice as few units overall to provide the same functionality or you have twice as many units that can perform the same functionality. Getting a transforming unit is better than getting a new unit, period. You've completely missed my point. I was just saying that Morphing and Transforming units is completely different thing, and you can't compare those units. I've never said that one is better than the other, and I agree, transforming usually is better because the unit that is transformed didn't lose their first role.
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I'm probably going to stick with WoL. I'm personally not pleased with the new features in game. Some of the things like clan support will be nice, but hopefully those are patched into WoL (fingers crossed XD)
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I hope DB is just trolling when he says they won't add new units for Terran. Maybe instead they add old units and bring the Goliath and Vulture/SM back.
Well, whom am I kidding.
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Ladder Master on WoL :
-Zerg : 35.25 % -Protoss : 35.19 % -Terran : 25.5%
so, how much on HotS ? Terran < 20 % ? < 15 % ? I take the bets !
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On September 19 2012 21:03 yolteotl wrote: Ladder Master on WoL :
-Zerg : 35.25 % -Protoss : 35.19 % -Terran : 25.5%
so, how much on HotS ? Terran < 20 % ? < 15 % ? I take the bets !
master around 15%, bronze around 50% is my guess xD
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Give mech some spell caster ffs Ghost is anticaster and raven isn't effective vs toss
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I've been messing around with mech in WOL, it seems pretty strong the hardest part i find is the multi tasking involved compared to bio build. Sensor towers are a must although they dont do damage but they help control space and help protect against drops and flanks on your siege lines. I also use a lot of missle turrets to keep observers away to help with my unsiege and sieging. I know they would never get rid of the battle helion but i almost wish they would give an upgrade for the hellion to let us lay mines with them much like the vulture in BW. The widow mine in HOTS costs 2 supply so.. you couldnt have more than 5 and thats not enough to help protect your flank. Where as in bw there where 50.. i know the vision and damage is better in hots but without enough of them it wont be viable to give you adequite time to rearange your mech forces.
I also thought what if the widow mine could lay 3 smaller land mines and then lay himself as a land mine thus giving you 3 smaller mines and then one bigger mine. I dont know how user friendly that would be but the current state needs some adjusting =*(
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On September 19 2012 21:42 OptIn wrote: I've been messing around with mech in WOL, it seems pretty strong the hardest part i find is the multi tasking involved compared to bio build. Sensor towers are a must although they dont do damage but they help control space and help protect against drops and flanks on your siege lines. I also use a lot of missle turrets to keep observers away to help with my unsiege and sieging. I know they would never get rid of the battle helion but i almost wish they would give an upgrade for the hellion to let us lay mines with them much like the vulture in BW. The widow mine in HOTS costs 2 supply so.. you couldnt have more than 5 and thats not enough to help protect your flank. Where as in bw there where 50.. i know the vision and damage is better in hots but without enough of them it wont be viable to give you adequite time to rearange your mech forces.
I also thought what if the widow mine could lay 3 smaller land mines and then lay himself as a land mine thus giving you 3 smaller mines and then one bigger mine. I dont know how user friendly that would be but the current state needs some adjusting =*( widow mine gets a buff in the next days. Blizzard said they are fine with it's TvZ state, but they are not good enough in TvT and TvP.
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On September 19 2012 21:50 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 21:42 OptIn wrote: I've been messing around with mech in WOL, it seems pretty strong the hardest part i find is the multi tasking involved compared to bio build. Sensor towers are a must although they dont do damage but they help control space and help protect against drops and flanks on your siege lines. I also use a lot of missle turrets to keep observers away to help with my unsiege and sieging. I know they would never get rid of the battle helion but i almost wish they would give an upgrade for the hellion to let us lay mines with them much like the vulture in BW. The widow mine in HOTS costs 2 supply so.. you couldnt have more than 5 and thats not enough to help protect your flank. Where as in bw there where 50.. i know the vision and damage is better in hots but without enough of them it wont be viable to give you adequite time to rearange your mech forces.
I also thought what if the widow mine could lay 3 smaller land mines and then lay himself as a land mine thus giving you 3 smaller mines and then one bigger mine. I dont know how user friendly that would be but the current state needs some adjusting =*( widow mine gets a buff in the next days. Blizzard said they are fine with it's TvZ state, but they are not good enough in TvT and TvP.
They said it was "decent" in TvZ. I can see them buffing it for all matchups.
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IDK, i won't really say anything cause I have not played the beta yet (not that I have it lol), but I do hope they fix TvP its very hard at lower levels (plat and lower)
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On September 19 2012 22:35 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 21:50 Big J wrote:On September 19 2012 21:42 OptIn wrote: I've been messing around with mech in WOL, it seems pretty strong the hardest part i find is the multi tasking involved compared to bio build. Sensor towers are a must although they dont do damage but they help control space and help protect against drops and flanks on your siege lines. I also use a lot of missle turrets to keep observers away to help with my unsiege and sieging. I know they would never get rid of the battle helion but i almost wish they would give an upgrade for the hellion to let us lay mines with them much like the vulture in BW. The widow mine in HOTS costs 2 supply so.. you couldnt have more than 5 and thats not enough to help protect your flank. Where as in bw there where 50.. i know the vision and damage is better in hots but without enough of them it wont be viable to give you adequite time to rearange your mech forces.
I also thought what if the widow mine could lay 3 smaller land mines and then lay himself as a land mine thus giving you 3 smaller mines and then one bigger mine. I dont know how user friendly that would be but the current state needs some adjusting =*( widow mine gets a buff in the next days. Blizzard said they are fine with it's TvZ state, but they are not good enough in TvT and TvP. They said it was "decent" in TvZ. I can see them buffing it for all matchups.
potato, potato
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Bisutopia18980 Posts
I remember when the reaper could throw charges that would explode after a set time. That was freaking awesome and cause lots of micro. Bring that back!
I also remember when the CattleBruiser was supposed to have to tech choices. Where the guns had different behaviors depending on which one you chose. That would be awesome too.
Terran is a very complete race right now even with all their nerfs. But as far as hots is concerned, very boring indeed.
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Very happy they are not adding new units just for the lolz.
Bio is complete and now mech is also. Just balance the mine with 1 supply and maybe some Tank changes...maybe.
The only thing that i think could have been added was a fast flying unit, though i have no idea what role it could have served.
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I honestly don't see the problem, Terran was the most complete race since the beginning. The two races with obvious flaws where the Protoss and Zerg due to their completely new core game mechanics (warp-in and queen inject), core mechanics that are radically different from the original game, while the terran core mechanics were merely adjusted to suit the resource collection rate potential of the other races with the MULE.
As for the strategic units, Terran has had the most tools since like forever. Sure, the Ghost is an anti-caster - but isn't EMP destroying half the healthpool of Protoss armies as well? Isn't the Raven the only flying caster with damaging abilities in WoL? Just look at how succesful some Terran players were able to beat back the odds since the latest adjustments to the other races, I'm sure it won't be any different in HotS.
This post seems to have been made out of discontent for not getting a 'cool' new unit - which is probably the only valid argument for it.
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Yea I agree. I actually quit the game because of HoTs. Now working a full time job and enjoying life :-]. They battered terran down to the bone in WoL. And topped it off even harder in HoTs. I'll just watch streams every now and then =/
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United Kingdom14464 Posts
On September 20 2012 01:41 NaEjeOn88 wrote: Yea I agree. I actually quit the game because of HoTs. Now working a full time job and enjoying life :-]. They battered terran down to the bone in WoL. And topped it off even harder in HoTs. I'll just watch streams every now and then =/ I honestly don't get these kind of posts. You start off talking about balance in WoL (cause you sure as hell can't be complaining about lack of variety for Terran) and even if I concede that Terran is UP in WoL at least at lower levels (which I don't) then what the hell are you talking about for HotS? Balance? At this stage? Are you really complaining about balance of a game when we're only in the 2nd week of beta?
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On September 19 2012 22:35 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 21:50 Big J wrote:On September 19 2012 21:42 OptIn wrote: I've been messing around with mech in WOL, it seems pretty strong the hardest part i find is the multi tasking involved compared to bio build. Sensor towers are a must although they dont do damage but they help control space and help protect against drops and flanks on your siege lines. I also use a lot of missle turrets to keep observers away to help with my unsiege and sieging. I know they would never get rid of the battle helion but i almost wish they would give an upgrade for the hellion to let us lay mines with them much like the vulture in BW. The widow mine in HOTS costs 2 supply so.. you couldnt have more than 5 and thats not enough to help protect your flank. Where as in bw there where 50.. i know the vision and damage is better in hots but without enough of them it wont be viable to give you adequite time to rearange your mech forces.
I also thought what if the widow mine could lay 3 smaller land mines and then lay himself as a land mine thus giving you 3 smaller mines and then one bigger mine. I dont know how user friendly that would be but the current state needs some adjusting =*( widow mine gets a buff in the next days. Blizzard said they are fine with it's TvZ state, but they are not good enough in TvT and TvP. They said it was "decent" in TvZ. I can see them buffing it for all matchups.
Better known as, "not broken and appears to be useful". Still, I hope for more mine buffs, while keeping them from becoming the "low-level All-in 2000 - Now with more worker deaths" unit.
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On September 20 2012 01:41 NaEjeOn88 wrote: Yea I agree. I actually quit the game because of HoTs. Now working a full time job and enjoying life :-]. They battered terran down to the bone in WoL. And topped it off even harder in HoTs. I'll just watch streams every now and then =/
Terran has more options than any other race in WoL, so I don't know what you're talking about. And why would you quit the game because of a beta? For all you know, the next patch is gonna buff Terran to the god tier.
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On September 20 2012 01:52 Crawdad wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 01:41 NaEjeOn88 wrote: Yea I agree. I actually quit the game because of HoTs. Now working a full time job and enjoying life :-]. They battered terran down to the bone in WoL. And topped it off even harder in HoTs. I'll just watch streams every now and then =/ Terran has more options than any other race in WoL, so I don't know what you're talking about. And why would you quit the game because of a beta? For all you know, the next patch is gonna buff Terran to the god tier.
Do not ask these question, you will not get a reasonable response. If you look at his post history, you will see he has been banned several times for whining about how hard terran is, claiming to have switched to zerg just to prove it is easy and so on. He was going to quit not matter what happened, he just blames terran being hard. Even if it was easy, it wouldn't hold his interest.
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United Kingdom265 Posts
you should rename this "every other terran displeased with Hots?"
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Funny, so many of the issues that need to be fixed with Terran can all be rooted in one unit...the Marauder. Just get rid of this thing already.
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United Kingdom14464 Posts
On September 20 2012 01:58 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 01:52 Crawdad wrote:On September 20 2012 01:41 NaEjeOn88 wrote: Yea I agree. I actually quit the game because of HoTs. Now working a full time job and enjoying life :-]. They battered terran down to the bone in WoL. And topped it off even harder in HoTs. I'll just watch streams every now and then =/ Terran has more options than any other race in WoL, so I don't know what you're talking about. And why would you quit the game because of a beta? For all you know, the next patch is gonna buff Terran to the god tier. Do not ask these question, you will not get a reasonable response. If you look at his post history, you will see he has been banned several times for whining about how hard terran is, claiming to have switched to zerg just to prove it is easy and so on. He was going to quit not matter what happened, he just blames terran being hard. Even if it was easy, it wouldn't hold his interest. T_T I responded, I've been had.
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I'm very worried about tvp. Protoss now has the Tempest, which is another tier 3 unit the can add to their already too powerful army, and that hard counters BC and thors. Protoss may even end up with a Carrier buff. What do we have instead? Battle hellions: an unit that does well against....zelots (a tier 1 unit).
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terrible time to be a terran. Beta has been terrible, dont even feel like playing.
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On September 19 2012 14:49 Asymptote1 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 08:56 stevarius wrote:On September 19 2012 08:45 ZeromuS wrote: I think they need to do a lot more invites before we can see where the game is really going.
With a widow mine buff, we might actually see some interesting use. Keep in mind, there are a lot of WoL tournaments coming up. I think if the beta goes into early2013 we will see some awesome changes. Into the fucking ground. Terran has no good units that were introduced. We're now going to be facing problems that we haven't faced in the past except with the SAME units that we've been attempting to use to adapt as the meta game has evolved. There comes a point in time where these units won't be able to work in sync to win games because we won't be able to handle the new and powerful combinations of units. The new mines are going to be shut down so hard by protoss players and zerg players once they start walking around with overseers and observers, which many already do. HotS looks like shit for Terrans at this point in time because of Blizzard's lack of true effort to fulfill the unit role Terran needs. Except....Terran doesn't NEED any other rolls filled...You obviously have very little experience with terran if you honestly think its in rough shape and is full of holes. Protoss is full of holes design wise, terran is the most complete race in the game, you can try to deny it but it just makes you look dumb.
I bet you've never played any game that goes to the late game as Terran vs Protoss or Zerg. Its so bad I've seen Platinum Zergs beat Diamond Terrans consistently.
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I have lost interested in playing the beta. There is simply nothing significant interesting for Terrans now.
It's like playing WoL versus new Zerg toys.
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Why do so many people (non-Terrans) think that this is a matter of balance?
I'm not saying that Terran is too weak, or that the other race are too strong.
No, my problem is that Terran is pretty much the same in HotS. Zerg and Toss both has new units that give them a lot more options. Especially the Viper, MS Core and the Oracle seem to have the potential to change the entire meta-game.
And Terran?
We get a Hellion with more HP, a Reaper that breaks our mirror match-up and a Mine that seems useless in its current state. That's it.
It's just a bad joke.
I really get the feel like Blizzard thinks that it's okay to treat Terran players like shit, because they released WoL so Terran favored. It's like they think people are assholes for playing Terran.
-"What? Thors work in TvP? No, fuck you! Nerf!" -"Oh, Terrans have problems against late-game Protoss? Yeah, let's give Toss cheaper, faster upgrades." -"Hey, Dustin. TvZ is the historically most balanced match-up right now."-"WHAT?! BUFF THE QUEEN AND THE OV INSTANTLY!!!" -"Hey Dustin. Terran is doing terribly in TvZ." - "What's the least made Terran unit?" - "Raven, I think." - "Yeah, increase its speed slightly. Oh no, wait. MVP is winning against non-names. Don't."
And really, about the Warhound. Why the fuck do they now act like holy guys for removing it?!
It's not like they are the one who FUCKING MADE IT in the first place.
I could go on and on about this... it just makes me sad to see a game, that I love so much, take such a shitty route.
It's like an abusive relationship, really.
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I have a very STRONG feeling that the next patch will come this week with buffs to
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On September 20 2012 06:22 SarcasmMonster wrote:I have a very STRONG feeling that the next patch will come this week with buffs to
Terran doesn't need buffs, we need at least some more interesting options for HotS. Really the Raven and BC change was perfect since it would have allowed for a whole new way to approach Sky-Terran.
For the same reason you don't see any (sane) Terrans whine about the Warhound being gone. It's not about strength, it's about options. Even if the Battle Hellion would kill Immortals and Ultras in a supply/cost effective way I would still be a boring, shitty unit.
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On September 20 2012 06:22 SarcasmMonster wrote:I have a very STRONG feeling that the next patch will come this week with buffs to
I do as well. Blizzard would like people to use the battle hellion and mine. I know their secret plan to make people use them, which is to buff them and make them "Awesome!". Then they tweek the unit until it is "Awesome, yet reasonable".
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On September 20 2012 06:27 Grapefruit wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 06:22 SarcasmMonster wrote:I have a very STRONG feeling that the next patch will come this week with buffs to Terran doesn't need buffs, we need at least some more interesting options for HotS. Really the Raven and BC change was perfect since it would have allowed for a whole new way to approach Sky-Terran. For the same reason you don't see any (sane) Terrans whine about the Warhound being gone. It's not about strength, it's about options. Even if the Battle Hellion would kill Immortals and Ultras in a supply/cost effective way I would still be a boring, shitty unit.
To be fair to me, the Raven and BC changes were buffs. Straight up buffs. (Then they took it away )
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On September 20 2012 06:27 Grapefruit wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 06:22 SarcasmMonster wrote:I have a very STRONG feeling that the next patch will come this week with buffs to Terran doesn't need buffs, we need at least some more interesting options for HotS. Really the Raven and BC change was perfect since it would have allowed for a whole new way to approach Sky-Terran. For the same reason you don't see any (sane) Terrans whine about the Warhound being gone. It's not about strength, it's about options. Even if the Battle Hellion would kill Immortals and Ultras in a supply/cost effective way I would still be a boring, shitty unit.
I play protoss and those units make me want to switch to Terran because they sound awesome. A mineral based unit that can be both a front line damage tank and then transform in to a harassing unit. And it works with a reactor and cost only minerals. Sounds great. A mine that can be moved around, provide vision and damage units if they are dumb enough to walk near it. Sounds promising, tell me more.
I don't know what people are expecting. Blizzard is not going to give Terran the Omega Thor/BC-tranformer that can one shot colossi and Broodlords and destorys all creep tumors/queens on the map when built.
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Changes to WoL units that could easily be done in a patch.
New form for a WoL unit.
Old SC1 ability now a trainable unit that takes supply.
Have fun Terran.
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On September 20 2012 06:33 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 06:27 Grapefruit wrote:On September 20 2012 06:22 SarcasmMonster wrote:I have a very STRONG feeling that the next patch will come this week with buffs to Terran doesn't need buffs, we need at least some more interesting options for HotS. Really the Raven and BC change was perfect since it would have allowed for a whole new way to approach Sky-Terran. For the same reason you don't see any (sane) Terrans whine about the Warhound being gone. It's not about strength, it's about options. Even if the Battle Hellion would kill Immortals and Ultras in a supply/cost effective way I would still be a boring, shitty unit. I play protoss and those units make me want to switch to Terran because they sound awesome. A mineral based unit that can be both a front line damage tank and then transform in to a harassing unit. And it works with a reactor and cost only minerals. Sounds great. A mine that can be moved around, provide vision and damage units if they are dumb enough to walk near it. Sounds promising, tell me more. I don't know what people are expecting. Blizzard is not going to give Terran the Omega Thor/BC-tranformer that can one shot colossi and Broodlords and destorys all creep tumors/queens on the map when built. Yeah, I feel somehow the same. I play Zerg, and I am very pleased with Swarm Host and Viper, but Widow Mine and Battle Hellion seem great to me. They need a little tweaking(Mine at least), but they sound great.
I don't understand people that wants new unit just for the sake of new unit that is "interesting". No, you won't be playing the same Terran from WoL. You will be able to play mech if Blizzard is doing what they have said that they are doing. Even with just Battle Hellions and Mines, you got a lot of new strategies, openings, timing attacks, tactics etc. and that is with just those units, while I am pretty sure that they will add some new unit to the Terran eventually.
Also, new unit doesn't have to be something special and mega interesting, it needs to fill the gap, and make some unit compositions viable. In the end, I really don't know what you Terran players want...
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I sm happy with the way hots is heading. The beta is just starting. The widow mine will get more use as it gets tweaked and getting rid of the warhound was a good thing. I think blizzard understand the big picture with terran(Increase the viablility of mech) and they are just trying to figure out how to get there.
If the beta had 2 weeks left and the game was still the same I think this thread would be a little more justified.
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On September 20 2012 06:13 Grapefruit wrote: Why do so many people (non-Terrans) think that this is a matter of balance?
I'm not saying that Terran is too weak, or that the other race are too strong.
No, my problem is that Terran is pretty much the same in HotS. Zerg and Toss both has new units that give them a lot more options. Especially the Viper, MS Core and the Oracle seem to have the potential to change the entire meta-game.
And Terran?
We get a Hellion with more HP, a Reaper that breaks our mirror match-up and a Mine that seems useless in its current state. That's it.
It's just a bad joke.
I really get the feel like Blizzard thinks that it's okay to treat Terran players like shit, because they released WoL so Terran favored. It's like they think people are assholes for playing Terran.
-"What? Thors work in TvP? No, fuck you! Nerf!" -"Oh, Terrans have problems against late-game Protoss? Yeah, let's give Toss cheaper, faster upgrades." -"Hey, Dustin. TvZ is the historically most balanced match-up right now."-"WHAT?! BUFF THE QUEEN AND THE OV INSTANTLY!!!" -"Hey Dustin. Terran is doing terribly in TvZ." - "What's the least made Terran unit?" - "Raven, I think." - "Yeah, increase its speed slightly. Oh no, wait. MVP is winning against non-names. Don't."
And really, about the Warhound. Why the fuck do they now act like holy guys for removing it?!
It's not like they are the one who FUCKING MADE IT in the first place.
I could go on and on about this... it just makes me sad to see a game, that I love so much, take such a shitty route.
It's like an abusive relationship, really.
I've explained this in other thread before, the problem is very simple: Marines. Because Marines are so unbelievably stupid good, every other Terran unit has to be balanced around them. That means every unit needs to have either terrible stats for its cost, like the Viking, (which is supposed to counter air units but loses to literally anything that can shoot back) or have seriously crippled production that prevents massing the unit early, like Marauders and Banshees.
This is the reason Terran has to suffer so many nerfs. The energy-less Thor was very overpowered. Because Thors are so good against Colossi, Marine/Thor is unbeatable when Templar don't counter Thors alongside the Marines.
This is why they took the Warhound out. ANY new unit Terran receives on anything but the Barracks can't be good against Stalkers because otherwise Terran can just mass up a bunch of Marines + that unit + all their SCVs and go kill themselves a Protoss no matter what they do. Marines have two weaknesses: Kiting and AoE damage. By 1-base allining you get to hit before AoE damage is out and therefore if you have a unit that prevents your mass of Marines from being kited, Protoss can't do anything. 1/1/1 dominated Protoss for over a year and it took a series of nerfs and buffs to make it defendable, They have to be very wary about creating another build like this. The Warhound was 7 range and crushed Stalkers, there was literally no way for Protoss to ever beat 1-base Marine/Warhound + all SCVs pulled. There was absolutely no way for Blizzard to balance this, as long as the Warhound functioned as a 7-range Stalker counter Protoss was helpless.
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I don't understand why some of you are being so deliberately negative. There is no point in stretching the truth and calling the terran changes definitely worse than whatever protoss and zerg are getting. As usual, if you ever feel disappointed, it's just as much about your own expectations.
- the battle hellion is a new unit, you can build it separately from the hellion and it will have quite big effects on mech gameplay. - the widow mine will eventually reach a good balance point and offers potentially interesting positional gameplay similar to brood war - if other races get new units, that will require you to discover new ways to play with old units and therefore you still have new gameplay. - more uses for the reaper, battle cruiser, raven. - zerg gets two new units, protoss gets three. It's not significantly more or different to terran.
If you don't think that's good enough, then okay, but don't turn it into race whine about how zerg has it so much better. Honestly, I could make a new thread called "zerg sucks in HotS" and make it about how battle hellions are too strong vs zerglings and how MsC's recall is too annoying. And people would agree with me and use it as a jumping off point to express generic feelings of discontent. Doesn't mean it's worthwhile discussion.
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the reason for the rage is because they have been clear in stating that there is nothing in the design works for terran. The warhound has been cut and they said its NOT coming back . There is nothing new coming for terran, now is the time to speak out. battlehellion and gimmicky widow mine is okay, But its not enough .. There is a huge sense of "so this is it?" , this is what all these years we waited for to get? . I remember blizzard expansions doing huge improvements to their game, This is like the biggest cop out ever.
Starcraft to broodwar? huge... Warcraft Reign of chaos to frozen throne?huge... Sc2 wings to hots? lackluster.
At this point it should not be called an expansion for terrans, it should be called a patch we have to pay for.
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On September 20 2012 07:19 Grumbels wrote: - the battle hellion is a new unit, you can build it separately from the hellion and it will have quite big effects on mech gameplay.
That doesn't change the fact that it's boring unit. A Science Vessel could have also improved Mech and would have been WAY cooler.
On September 20 2012 07:19 Grumbels wrote: - the widow mine will eventually reach a good balance point and offers potentially interesting positional gameplay similar to brood war
It can't get similar to BW with a supply cost. How often do you see burrowed Banelings being used for positional gameplay?
On September 20 2012 07:19 Grumbels wrote: - if other races get new units, that will require you to discover new ways to play with old units and therefore you still have new gameplay.
That sounds like an argument that a big brother would use, to convince his younger brother that the old, lame action figure is just as awesome as the shiny new one.
On September 20 2012 07:19 Grumbels wrote: - more uses for the reaper, battle cruiser, raven.
Ha.... ha..... very funny.
On September 20 2012 07:19 Grumbels wrote: - zerg gets two new units, protoss gets three. It's not significantly more or different to terran.
Are you kidding me? The Viper and the SH allow for whole new Zerg styles altogether, while the MC core is amazing for greedy as well as aggressive builds.
On September 20 2012 07:19 Grumbels wrote: I could make a new thread called "zerg sucks in HotS" and make it about how battle hellions are too strong vs zerglings and how MsC's recall is too annoying. And people would agree with me and use it as a jumping off point to express generic feelings of discontent.
I think a lot of people would agree that Zerg has gotten the best treatment by far in HotS.
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I don't see much of a reason for terran's to buy HOTS right now... we have to buy a new game for a battle hellion and some fancy reapers...? just doesn't seem like i want to even buy it. It would be interesting if they introduced Lock down as some other threads have mentioned as well as change the thor 250mm strike cannons to an upgrade that is actually something usefull. like most terrans would agree, we need something to deal with late game P and Z. why not just tweak the thors 250mm strike cannon into something that is actually used more than my guestamate of 2% of all terran games... maybe something that can make mech viable vs Protoss...??
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On September 20 2012 06:13 Grapefruit wrote: Why do so many people (non-Terrans) think that this is a matter of balance?
I'm not saying that Terran is too weak, or that the other race are too strong.
No, my problem is that Terran is pretty much the same in HotS. Zerg and Toss both has new units that give them a lot more options. Especially the Viper, MS Core and the Oracle seem to have the potential to change the entire meta-game.
And Terran?
We get a Hellion with more HP, a Reaper that breaks our mirror match-up and a Mine that seems useless in its current state. That's it.
It's just a bad joke.
I really get the feel like Blizzard thinks that it's okay to treat Terran players like shit, because they released WoL so Terran favored. It's like they think people are assholes for playing Terran.
-"What? Thors work in TvP? No, fuck you! Nerf!" -"Oh, Terrans have problems against late-game Protoss? Yeah, let's give Toss cheaper, faster upgrades." -"Hey, Dustin. TvZ is the historically most balanced match-up right now."-"WHAT?! BUFF THE QUEEN AND THE OV INSTANTLY!!!" -"Hey Dustin. Terran is doing terribly in TvZ." - "What's the least made Terran unit?" - "Raven, I think." - "Yeah, increase its speed slightly. Oh no, wait. MVP is winning against non-names. Don't."
And really, about the Warhound. Why the fuck do they now act like holy guys for removing it?!
It's not like they are the one who FUCKING MADE IT in the first place.
I could go on and on about this... it just makes me sad to see a game, that I love so much, take such a shitty route.
It's like an abusive relationship, really.
This post is totally not biased. It's really constructive and well thought. It has empirical evidence on top of in-game proof. Such statement should be the staple model of how ppl should post!
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On September 20 2012 07:46 dragonblade369 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 06:13 Grapefruit wrote: Why do so many people (non-Terrans) think that this is a matter of balance?
I'm not saying that Terran is too weak, or that the other race are too strong.
No, my problem is that Terran is pretty much the same in HotS. Zerg and Toss both has new units that give them a lot more options. Especially the Viper, MS Core and the Oracle seem to have the potential to change the entire meta-game.
And Terran?
We get a Hellion with more HP, a Reaper that breaks our mirror match-up and a Mine that seems useless in its current state. That's it.
It's just a bad joke.
I really get the feel like Blizzard thinks that it's okay to treat Terran players like shit, because they released WoL so Terran favored. It's like they think people are assholes for playing Terran.
-"What? Thors work in TvP? No, fuck you! Nerf!" -"Oh, Terrans have problems against late-game Protoss? Yeah, let's give Toss cheaper, faster upgrades." -"Hey, Dustin. TvZ is the historically most balanced match-up right now."-"WHAT?! BUFF THE QUEEN AND THE OV INSTANTLY!!!" -"Hey Dustin. Terran is doing terribly in TvZ." - "What's the least made Terran unit?" - "Raven, I think." - "Yeah, increase its speed slightly. Oh no, wait. MVP is winning against non-names. Don't."
And really, about the Warhound. Why the fuck do they now act like holy guys for removing it?!
It's not like they are the one who FUCKING MADE IT in the first place.
I could go on and on about this... it just makes me sad to see a game, that I love so much, take such a shitty route.
It's like an abusive relationship, really. This post is totally not biased. It's really constructive and well thought. It has empirical evidence on top of in-game proof. Such statement should be the staple model of how ppl should post!
i know you were being sarcastic, but i honestly unsarcastically agree with your statement
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dezi
Germany1536 Posts
Looks like Blizz wants to force us into even more early game aggression (so they can nerf it) - no uber late for T - no faceroll a move - sth strong on our side? better nerf it right after one impact in a tourney instead of letting the game evolve - the stuff everyone is telling us when we got problems with P/Z strats/metagame.
I'm really disappointed ... D3 was and is huge disappointment too - i wanted a action role play game not an auction role play game. Then there are all those bad maps ... TLMC was nice but watch the ladderpool - still so much crap in there (and woah ... 2v2+ is a mess). Bnet is also still bad - 1.5 didn't add any decent stuff - just rearranged shit. Whole game still feels lacking to me and now all we seem to get with HotS is dull. Reaper regg? Fine - but they're freaking slow without their up - gl laming Z without speed.
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On September 20 2012 07:38 Grapefruit wrote:
That doesn't change the fact that it's boring unit. A Science Vessel could have also improved Mech and would have been WAY cooler.
Are you kidding me? The Viper and the SH allow for whole new Zerg styles altogether, while the MC core is amazing for greedy as well as aggressive builds.
So, Swarm Host and Viper allow for whole new Zerg style but Widow Mine and Battle Hellion don't do the same thing for Terran? You are finding Battle Hellions to be boring, while you shouldn't be looking at it like a new unit, but as Hellion that got an upgrade, to be more effective, and it isn't one-dimensional unit anymore, it has different roles in different circumstances, it can now harass, kill workers as well as being a tanky unit that soaks up damage for Marine timing attacks, for Tank line etc. You can do a lot with the Hellion for only 100 minerals. Just because you find it boring, doesn't make it boring, that is your own problem. To me, it is pretty interesting unit. A lot of other players would argue how Swarm Host is terrible unit that is boring with endless waves of Locusts and just adds to the Death Ball, that is still just their opinion.
And as usual, your posts reek from bias.
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Aside from pro players and casters I honestly see no reason for T players to get HotS. Why am I paying to make life difficult for myself?
And people are overrating the battle hellion. Regular hellions are better most of the time if you have good micro since they're much faster.
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On September 20 2012 13:08 S_SienZ wrote: And people are overrating the battle hellion. Regular hellions are better most of the time if you have good micro since they're much faster.
LOL, try to roast Chargelots in an actual engagement with Hellions, then with BHs.
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On September 20 2012 13:14 Crawdad wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 13:08 S_SienZ wrote: And people are overrating the battle hellion. Regular hellions are better most of the time if you have good micro since they're much faster. LOL, try to roast Chargelots in an actual engagement with Hellions, then with BHs. That's one situation they are good. I said most of the time, not always.
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Russian Federation216 Posts
On September 20 2012 13:14 Crawdad wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 13:08 S_SienZ wrote: And people are overrating the battle hellion. Regular hellions are better most of the time if you have good micro since they're much faster. LOL, try to roast Chargelots in an actual engagement with Hellions, then with BHs.
LOL, try to roast Chargelots in an actual engagement with new super awesome Battle Hellions - protoss still will win ^_^
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On September 20 2012 17:10 Fen1kz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 13:14 Crawdad wrote:On September 20 2012 13:08 S_SienZ wrote: And people are overrating the battle hellion. Regular hellions are better most of the time if you have good micro since they're much faster. LOL, try to roast Chargelots in an actual engagement with Hellions, then with BHs. LOL, try to roast Chargelots in an actual engagement with new super awesome Battle Hellions - protoss still will win ^_^ Yes, if you don't target fire with Siege Tanks, Protoss will obviously win. Just watch Morrow games, you will see what people are talking about.
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Aside from balance issues, what blizzard is doing now with Terran is completely against what an expansion should be bringing with new units/upgrades
a) Diversify the gameplay options on multiple fronts to increase entertainment value for both playing games, and spectatorship in esports. b) Give the crowd alot of new goodies to try out, and actually look forward to.
Now if you dont look at just units, but upgrades/abilities too, Blizzard did a very fine job with zerg and protoss. I am a casual player, and do not have the time nor the illusion that I can compete competitvely. Also I play random/switch races.
So when I am going to play Protoss, I will be very happy to try out the mothership core that allows me to gamble for economic profit (strong early defense, more chronoboost), but also to go for earlier hit and run strategies through mass recall. Phoenix speed increase will make the PvP metagame more interesting, and gives me more options for ZvP play. The oracle gives me an interesting support caster, which I can use for harassment, scouting or general support during the rest of the game. And last I get siege weapon (the Tempest), that can either be used for harassment on certain maps, or be included in my main armies to deal with certain army compositions.
Now as Zerg, I finally get an amazing unit (the swarm host)that I can play in all 3 matchups, and gives me both defense and offensive utility. Plus adds options I didnt have before, like putting siege to a protoss/terran base. I get an amazing support caster (the viper), that can fullfill alot of different roles, both offensively and defensively. Specialised in breaking well defended positions/siege lines. Next to that I can finally make use of the hydra, because it doesnt move around as a snail, which again I can use in all 3 matchups. And last but not least, I got a huge buff to one of the strongest lategame units out there, the Ultralisk. Burrow strike is amazing to compensate for it being a melee unit.
Now as terran, I get a reaper that is buffed and nerfed (they removed the explosive charges, correct me if I am wrong), which I might be able to utilise in later bio play. I get an upgrade to an existing unit (the battle helion), which seems to be an upgrade thats usefull in limited circumstances. Last I get an unit that can be amazing (the widow mine), but in current form seems to be only mediocre in use. So as a terran player you get some extra options to utilise with mech, and THATS IT. There are no interesting possibilities to consider for different strategies, BUT mech.
Now a quick thing about balance issues, aside from all the trolling that usually goes around. Since launch of WoL, Terran got ONLY nerfs, and not a single buff on any unit/upgrade (aside from the ghost cost reduction). Yes Terran was extremely dominant in the early days of Sc2, and most nerfs were justified. However we almost live in 2013 now, and alot of things changed since then, including Terran dominance. As it currently stands, Protoss has been overly dominating in the korean scene, and if I am not mistaken this is already the case for 4 months.
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On September 20 2012 17:25 Ramiz1989 wrote: Yes, if you don't target fire with Siege Tanks, Protoss will obviously win. Just watch Morrow games, you will see what people are talking about.
To be fair, I watch MorroW's stream pretty regularly, and mech still sucks in that MU. But it's not because of Chargelots.
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On September 20 2012 07:19 Grumbels wrote: If you don't think that's good enough, then okay, but don't turn it into race whine about how zerg has it so much better. Honestly, I could make a new thread called "zerg sucks in HotS" and make it about how battle hellions are too strong vs zerglings and how MsC's recall is too annoying. And people would agree with me and use it as a jumping off point to express generic feelings of discontent. Doesn't mean it's worthwhile discussion.
Go on, be my guest, make that thread. And watch people laugh at you. There is a reason you see people complaining mostly about terran and not so much about other races. And not only terran players...
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What are people's thoughts on a shield breaker upgrade to the tank? Something from the armory that would let tank shots do ~ 5-10 damage to toss shields?
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Aside from all balance points... Terran just got boring shit with HotS. Warhoud? Boring and luckily gone! Battlehellion? Well that isn't even a new unit. It's an option to make a quick and interesting unit into a slow amover... great....NOT! Widow mine? Really guys, I don't give up 2!!! Supply for such an option... a 2baneling bomb comes with 1supply and can be put into the actual army back again if needed. The widow mine is a huge supply commitment to a possibility that mostly builds on the opponent not being prepared. and if ppl come with focus fire and manually control... we have the best zerg players in the world missing to hit their banelingbombs on a regular basis, which is one hit on a key. And you expect terrans to manually targetfire widow mines? seriously? If someone had the APM to do it, then he should spend those into mutiple harassment instead of this shit! The only real improvement/new option we have is the battle hellion, and that's pretty few for an expansion set...
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To the OP question- Yes. Terran in HOTS is a total disappointment. HOTS is not adressing any of the issues I'm having in the different matchups at my level of play (EU plat) but rather make Terran even worse in comparison to the other races in HOTS. I'm sure Blizzard has data and whatnot from higher level play to back up what HOTS is for Terran, and I get that that's how they have to balance it, but I'm not MVP or Thorzain. I can't make Terran late-game work now, so how can I expect to make it work in HOTS with no news except a ghost nerf? And consider this: I dont want to be MVP or GM or even master league. I'm lucky if I ever reach diamond. I dont understand why the game has to be worse (harder) for Terran if you're "bad" than for the other races. It would be so much more fun if it was balanced late-game a bit further down in the leagues.
Wow this sounds so much like balance whine, reading it back.
TLDR: Terran late game is weak if you're "bad" compared to the other races. No changes in HOTS, the other guys just get more stuff. I change races for HOTS. Also I'm a balance whiner and I should probably just be quiet.
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I agree with the people who want a new unit instead of the war hound. This is not about balance or how polished a race is, or about a 'new shiny unit'. This unit, if it's a good one, could add a lot of dynamics to the game. It could be a really interesting unit to spectate and to play with. It could add fun to the game (an unfamiliar concept to sc2). Balance you should come after gameplay. In brood war they weren't thinking about balance, they were thinking about adding a cool new unit, game play and lore wise. And guess what ? Together with great maps and a few small balance patches they made the best RTS and an incredible e-sport game.
And there's no shame in taking units from brood war and experimenting with them. Add the reaver, remove collussus for a patch or two and see if it shows potential in fun etc If it doesn't work out? You atleast tried and satisfied the entire community with a history in brood war (and others who would be just as thrilled to see the reaver).
The swarm host, is a rehashed concept of the lurker but not nearly as interesting. It singlehandedly made me stop watching zerg streams because it's again an incredibly boring unit. Roach versus roach battles are considered to be really dull, well when I last watched it was swarm host vs swarm host battle. Streams of free units walk up to each other, attacking and dying. A unit like this is not the future for e-sports. The viper on the other hand, is a good unit. Even though it has consume, disruption web and guttling hook (from pudge), it provides totally new dynamics, gives zergs a way to outmicro their opponent and actually is fun to play with and to watch. The viper is a good unit.
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on the +side my Terran brothers.....We got marines......maybe they should give them another armor/health upgrade and call it "Halo Time" <3
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Its not the units that are the problem its the production that sucks. 60 seconds to make barracks and 50 to add reactor... how is it still in the game?? Since other races have got buffs to defend early game allins MM rushes are not the issue anymore. For the love of god buff the production facilities of terran blizzard!!!
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i really dont understand wtf is blizzard doing, its an expansion, in which every race should get new exciting units, and only after that comes balance, because i wont buy expansion that is only balance change, that should have been in wol already... Also Battle hellion. Its Additional mode for same unit, it have slightly tweaked stats, that took 5 mins to make. Srsly wow. Widow mine. Baneling without ability to use in main army. Now the compare that to exciting casting unit like viper or even swarm or new toss units and it srsly begs to differ why would terrans even bother with hots, when the others will be playing with new stuff, terran will be building same old boring units(marines, marauders for life bro!). I srsly lol how they add units to other races that wants to be in deathballs(swarm host, viper, tempest). Then add widow mine to terran and say shit like "well we want games to have less death ball". Guess what happens? terran never makes widow mines, because the other two races only a move with deathballs, forcing terran to make a GODDAMN deathball themself.
Also lets do a unit count for terran not including summons(aka mule, infested marine image by sentry and stuff like that). toss Zealot Stalker Sentry High Templar Dark Templar Immortal Colossus Archon Observer Warp Prism Phoenix Void Ray Carrier Mothership Mothership core Tempest Oracle 17units.
Zerg Queen Zergling Baneling Roach Hydralisk Infestor Ultralisk Overlord(this is actually unit, that you can drop with with scout drop creep and stuff) Overseer Mutalisk Corruptor Brood Lord Viper Swarm host. 15units.
Terran. Marine Marauder Reaper Ghost Hellion Siege Tank Thor Viking Medivac Raven Banshee Battlecruiser Battlehelion(this shouldnt even be counted because, then we should count every zerg unit that is burrowed a differnt unit, since they all have differnt stats, also we should count warprism in flying or phase mode as differnt units aswell... differnt stats..but i added this anyway ) Widow mine. 14units.
Terran lowest amount of units, if they dont add new unit/units to terran everyone and there grandmas will be playing zerg and toss.
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On September 21 2012 01:34 Dephy wrote: Also lets do a unit count for terran not including summons(aka mule, infested marine image by sentry and stuff like that). toss Zealot Stalker Sentry High Templar Dark Templar Immortal Colossus Archon Observer Warp Prism Phoenix Void Ray Carrier Mothership Mothership core Tempest Oracle 17units.
Zerg Queen Zergling Baneling Roach Hydralisk Infestor Ultralisk Overlord(this is actually unit, that you can drop with with scout drop creep and stuff) Overseer Mutalisk Corruptor Brood Lord Viper Swarm host. 15units.
Terran. Marine Marauder Reaper Ghost Hellion Siege Tank Thor Viking Medivac Raven Banshee Battlecruiser Battlehelion(this shouldnt even be counted because, then we should count every zerg unit that is burrowed a differnt unit, since they all have differnt stats, also we should count warprism in flying or phase mode as differnt units aswell... differnt stats..but i added this anyway ) Widow mine. 14units.
Terran lowest amount of units, if they dont add new unit/units to terran everyone and there grandmas will be playing zerg and toss.
The funniest thing is that you listed 14 Zerg units, and said there is 15...
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On September 21 2012 01:46 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 01:34 Dephy wrote: Also lets do a unit count for terran not including summons(aka mule, infested marine image by sentry and stuff like that). toss Zealot Stalker Sentry High Templar Dark Templar Immortal Colossus Archon Observer Warp Prism Phoenix Void Ray Carrier Mothership Mothership core Tempest Oracle 17units.
Zerg Queen Zergling Baneling Roach Hydralisk Infestor Ultralisk Overlord(this is actually unit, that you can drop with with scout drop creep and stuff) Overseer Mutalisk Corruptor Brood Lord Viper Swarm host. 15units.
Terran. Marine Marauder Reaper Ghost Hellion Siege Tank Thor Viking Medivac Raven Banshee Battlecruiser Battlehelion(this shouldnt even be counted because, then we should count every zerg unit that is burrowed a differnt unit, since they all have differnt stats, also we should count warprism in flying or phase mode as differnt units aswell... differnt stats..but i added this anyway ) Widow mine. 14units.
Terran lowest amount of units, if they dont add new unit/units to terran everyone and there grandmas will be playing zerg and toss.
The funniest thing is that you listed 14 Zerg units, and said there is 15... sry made mistake :}
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On September 21 2012 00:41 Cheerio wrote: Its not the units that are the problem its the production that sucks. 60 seconds to make barracks and 50 to add reactor... how is it still in the game?? Since other races have got buffs to defend early game allins MM rushes are not the issue anymore. For the love of god buff the production facilities of terran blizzard!!!
Bunkering Zerg's natural expansion is still an issue, albeit less of an issue after the Barracks and Bunker nerfs.
Out of curiousity, would anybody play with Firebats if they added them to Barracks/Techlab? Instead of making undercosted, overpowered Battle Hellions off of Factory/Reactor tech or even Factory/Reactor Armory tech that have 35 more hit points and can be repaired with SCVs, it might be more interesting to add Firebats back to Barracks/Techlab tech in order to force Mech to utilize both the Barracks for "anti-Zealot" meat shields and the Starport for "anti-air" while giving Bio an "upgrade" as well in the Zerg and Protoss match ups.
The Battle Hellion is just an ugly, awkward unit as it is and its current implementation is "odd" from a game design perspective.
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On September 21 2012 01:34 Dephy wrote: i really dont understand wtf is blizzard doing, its an expansion, in which every race should get new exciting units, and only after that comes balance, because i wont buy expansion that is only balance change, that should have been in wol already... Also Battle hellion. Its Additional mode for same unit, it have slightly tweaked stats, that took 5 mins to make. Srsly wow. Widow mine. Baneling without ability to use in main army. Now the compare that to exciting casting unit like viper or even swarm or new toss units and it srsly begs to differ why would terrans even bother with hots, when the others will be playing with new stuff, terran will be building same old boring units(marines, marauders for life bro!). I srsly lol how they add units to other races that wants to be in deathballs(swarm host, viper, tempest). Then add widow mine to terran and say shit like "well we want games to have less death ball". Guess what happens? terran never makes widow mines, because the other two races only a move with deathballs, forcing terran to make a GODDAMN deathball themself.
Also lets do a unit count for terran not including summons(aka mule, infested marine image by sentry and stuff like that). toss Zealot Stalker Sentry High Templar Dark Templar Immortal Colossus Archon Observer Warp Prism Phoenix Void Ray Carrier Mothership Mothership core Tempest Oracle 17units.
Zerg Queen Zergling Baneling Roach Hydralisk Infestor Ultralisk Overlord(this is actually unit, that you can drop with with scout drop creep and stuff) Overseer Mutalisk Corruptor Brood Lord Viper Swarm host. 15units.
Terran. Marine Marauder Reaper Ghost Hellion Siege Tank Thor Viking Medivac Raven Banshee Battlecruiser Battlehelion(this shouldnt even be counted because, then we should count every zerg unit that is burrowed a differnt unit, since they all have differnt stats, also we should count warprism in flying or phase mode as differnt units aswell... differnt stats..but i added this anyway ) Widow mine. 14units.
Terran lowest amount of units, if they dont add new unit/units to terran everyone and there grandmas will be playing zerg and toss.
more units does not mean anything. protoss units are very one-dimensional, while most of terran units have more than one role, marines are like 3-in-1.
that is why in the late game protoss composition uses zealot, stalker, sentry, HT, Colossus, archon, observer, warp prism... while terran can use MMM, ghost & vikings.
zergs can get the ultimate composition with only 3 units: brood, infestor, corruptor.
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On September 21 2012 02:03 rpgalon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 01:34 Dephy wrote: i really dont understand wtf is blizzard doing, its an expansion, in which every race should get new exciting units, and only after that comes balance, because i wont buy expansion that is only balance change, that should have been in wol already... Also Battle hellion. Its Additional mode for same unit, it have slightly tweaked stats, that took 5 mins to make. Srsly wow. Widow mine. Baneling without ability to use in main army. Now the compare that to exciting casting unit like viper or even swarm or new toss units and it srsly begs to differ why would terrans even bother with hots, when the others will be playing with new stuff, terran will be building same old boring units(marines, marauders for life bro!). I srsly lol how they add units to other races that wants to be in deathballs(swarm host, viper, tempest). Then add widow mine to terran and say shit like "well we want games to have less death ball". Guess what happens? terran never makes widow mines, because the other two races only a move with deathballs, forcing terran to make a GODDAMN deathball themself.
Also lets do a unit count for terran not including summons(aka mule, infested marine image by sentry and stuff like that). toss Zealot Stalker Sentry High Templar Dark Templar Immortal Colossus Archon Observer Warp Prism Phoenix Void Ray Carrier Mothership Mothership core Tempest Oracle 17units.
Zerg Queen Zergling Baneling Roach Hydralisk Infestor Ultralisk Overlord(this is actually unit, that you can drop with with scout drop creep and stuff) Overseer Mutalisk Corruptor Brood Lord Viper Swarm host. 15units.
Terran. Marine Marauder Reaper Ghost Hellion Siege Tank Thor Viking Medivac Raven Banshee Battlecruiser Battlehelion(this shouldnt even be counted because, then we should count every zerg unit that is burrowed a differnt unit, since they all have differnt stats, also we should count warprism in flying or phase mode as differnt units aswell... differnt stats..but i added this anyway ) Widow mine. 14units.
Terran lowest amount of units, if they dont add new unit/units to terran everyone and there grandmas will be playing zerg and toss.
more units does not mean anything. protoss units are very one-dimensional, while most of terran units have more than one role, marines are like 3-in-1. that is why in the late game protoss composition uses zealot, stalker, sentry, HT, Colossus, archon, observer, warp prism... while terran can use MMM, ghost & vikings. zergs can get the ultimate composition with only 3 units: brood, infestor, corruptor.
And notice that a majority of the toss army work on the same set of upgrades. One of the main problems with terrans is that can't even really go bio mech in TvP passed the early mid game due to upgrades.
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On September 21 2012 02:15 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 02:03 rpgalon wrote:On September 21 2012 01:34 Dephy wrote: i really dont understand wtf is blizzard doing, its an expansion, in which every race should get new exciting units, and only after that comes balance, because i wont buy expansion that is only balance change, that should have been in wol already... Also Battle hellion. Its Additional mode for same unit, it have slightly tweaked stats, that took 5 mins to make. Srsly wow. Widow mine. Baneling without ability to use in main army. Now the compare that to exciting casting unit like viper or even swarm or new toss units and it srsly begs to differ why would terrans even bother with hots, when the others will be playing with new stuff, terran will be building same old boring units(marines, marauders for life bro!). I srsly lol how they add units to other races that wants to be in deathballs(swarm host, viper, tempest). Then add widow mine to terran and say shit like "well we want games to have less death ball". Guess what happens? terran never makes widow mines, because the other two races only a move with deathballs, forcing terran to make a GODDAMN deathball themself.
Also lets do a unit count for terran not including summons(aka mule, infested marine image by sentry and stuff like that). toss Zealot Stalker Sentry High Templar Dark Templar Immortal Colossus Archon Observer Warp Prism Phoenix Void Ray Carrier Mothership Mothership core Tempest Oracle 17units.
Zerg Queen Zergling Baneling Roach Hydralisk Infestor Ultralisk Overlord(this is actually unit, that you can drop with with scout drop creep and stuff) Overseer Mutalisk Corruptor Brood Lord Viper Swarm host. 15units.
Terran. Marine Marauder Reaper Ghost Hellion Siege Tank Thor Viking Medivac Raven Banshee Battlecruiser Battlehelion(this shouldnt even be counted because, then we should count every zerg unit that is burrowed a differnt unit, since they all have differnt stats, also we should count warprism in flying or phase mode as differnt units aswell... differnt stats..but i added this anyway ) Widow mine. 14units.
Terran lowest amount of units, if they dont add new unit/units to terran everyone and there grandmas will be playing zerg and toss.
more units does not mean anything. protoss units are very one-dimensional, while most of terran units have more than one role, marines are like 3-in-1. that is why in the late game protoss composition uses zealot, stalker, sentry, HT, Colossus, archon, observer, warp prism... while terran can use MMM, ghost & vikings. zergs can get the ultimate composition with only 3 units: brood, infestor, corruptor. And notice that a majority of the toss army work on the same set of upgrades. One of the main problems with terrans is that can't even really go bio mech in TvP passed the early mid game due to upgrades.
Works in TvZ well enough?
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On September 20 2012 13:14 Crawdad wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 13:08 S_SienZ wrote: And people are overrating the battle hellion. Regular hellions are better most of the time if you have good micro since they're much faster. LOL, try to roast Chargelots in an actual engagement with Hellions, then with BHs.
You lose either way without the warhound?
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On September 21 2012 02:03 rpgalon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 01:34 Dephy wrote: i really dont understand wtf is blizzard doing, its an expansion, in which every race should get new exciting units, and only after that comes balance, because i wont buy expansion that is only balance change, that should have been in wol already... Also Battle hellion. Its Additional mode for same unit, it have slightly tweaked stats, that took 5 mins to make. Srsly wow. Widow mine. Baneling without ability to use in main army. Now the compare that to exciting casting unit like viper or even swarm or new toss units and it srsly begs to differ why would terrans even bother with hots, when the others will be playing with new stuff, terran will be building same old boring units(marines, marauders for life bro!). I srsly lol how they add units to other races that wants to be in deathballs(swarm host, viper, tempest). Then add widow mine to terran and say shit like "well we want games to have less death ball". Guess what happens? terran never makes widow mines, because the other two races only a move with deathballs, forcing terran to make a GODDAMN deathball themself.
Also lets do a unit count for terran not including summons(aka mule, infested marine image by sentry and stuff like that). toss Zealot Stalker Sentry High Templar Dark Templar Immortal Colossus Archon Observer Warp Prism Phoenix Void Ray Carrier Mothership Mothership core Tempest Oracle 17units.
Zerg Queen Zergling Baneling Roach Hydralisk Infestor Ultralisk Overlord(this is actually unit, that you can drop with with scout drop creep and stuff) Overseer Mutalisk Corruptor Brood Lord Viper Swarm host. 15units.
Terran. Marine Marauder Reaper Ghost Hellion Siege Tank Thor Viking Medivac Raven Banshee Battlecruiser Battlehelion(this shouldnt even be counted because, then we should count every zerg unit that is burrowed a differnt unit, since they all have differnt stats, also we should count warprism in flying or phase mode as differnt units aswell... differnt stats..but i added this anyway ) Widow mine. 14units.
Terran lowest amount of units, if they dont add new unit/units to terran everyone and there grandmas will be playing zerg and toss.
more units does not mean anything. protoss units are very one-dimensional, while most of terran units have more than one role, marines are like 3-in-1. that is why in the late game protoss composition uses zealot, stalker, sentry, HT, Colossus, archon, observer, warp prism... while terran can use MMM, ghost & vikings. zergs can get the ultimate composition with only 3 units: brood, infestor, corruptor.
They should really focus on the fun aspect a lot more. Broodlord infestor corruptor is the most boring composition ever...
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To answer the title : yes.
I really wish they didn't give Zerg such bad unit sounds in SC2, and a general feeling that I don't like compared to SC:BW, or I would have stayed Zerg. I would have genuinely cheer for people like Stephano, Scarlett, Nerchio, etc.
But... I picked Terran, and stayed true to them during SC2 life. Well, I still can cheer for Thorzain, empire.happy and WTF-Taeja. But... you know, dem patches, dem decisions... meh.
-> Show the basic Terran user some love, god damnit!
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Ah lets see:
countless nerfs constant bashing of everyone who plays T on forums and online in general blizz's ''go fuck yourself if you play Terran trolollloo'' attitude and then this beta that seems quite dull and uninteresting
Yeah I'd say I'm displeased with the beta Probably not shoving 40E to buy the expansion, sorry
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I gave up understanding Blizzard's decisions.
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Widow mine is a 160 damage unit that instantly 2-4 shots the strongest, latest tier units in the game. Not to mention you can build them two at a time with a 20 sec build time on each. We don't think it'll be a good idea to have these guys be 1 pop especially for the 200/200 supply cases.
We do agree that the Widow Mine is not at an amazing place right now, but we think fixing the unit itself to be good is a priority than just simply lowering the supply cost to 1.
We have more changes for the Widow Mine this week as well so please check them out, and please note one of our top priorities in the up coming weeks is to have the Widow Mine be a really solid unit.
-David Kim
Looks like Widow Mines are getting a buff but it's not supply decrease. Now I'm curious.
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United Kingdom14464 Posts
On September 21 2012 03:44 ragz_gt wrote: I gave up understanding Blizzard's decisions. Why? Can't you see any logic in their decisions? Surely the removal of the warhound makes sense. As does the introduction of the carrier. And even if they're not perfectly tweaked the widow mine and the battlehellion seem pretty good. And most people like the swarmhost and the viper. And the oracle is slowly getting there. And WoL is pretty damn balanced. So why did you give up understanding their decisions? Are they really that incomprehensible that you have stopped even attempting to read and comprehend them? Cause to me they seem to make a lot of sense. Even to an absolute hater, don't they at least have some semblance of reason?
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On September 21 2012 03:54 SarcasmMonster wrote: Looks like Widow Mines are getting a buff but it's not supply decrease. Now I'm curious.
He also said this:
Our latest thinking on HotS mech:
1. All mech revolving around Siege Tanks makes Terran want to sit back and defend for a very long time. We're not sure what the correct ratio of this sort of play would be against how Terran players play now.
2. Mech revolving around a more all round/slightly mobile didn't work out with the Warhound.
3. Widow Mine being a more useful option is looking to be a really fun add to mech. We really want to focus on making this unit awesome for now and see where it goes.
4. Battle mode Hellions being built as a separate unit feels good for now due to how different this unit is from the hellion. We've been playing around with Battle Hellions that have Biological flag (can be healed my Medivacs), and are seeing more bio + mech cominations.
So overall, we think it'll be good if players in the beta really focus on the Widow Mines and Battle Hellions in the next couple weeks to really figure out their potential.
So it looks like they're really investing in the Widow mine.
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On September 21 2012 03:54 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +Widow mine is a 160 damage unit that instantly 2-4 shots the strongest, latest tier units in the game. Not to mention you can build them two at a time with a 20 sec build time on each. We don't think it'll be a good idea to have these guys be 1 pop especially for the 200/200 supply cases.
We do agree that the Widow Mine is not at an amazing place right now, but we think fixing the unit itself to be good is a priority than just simply lowering the supply cost to 1.
We have more changes for the Widow Mine this week as well so please check them out, and please note one of our top priorities in the up coming weeks is to have the Widow Mine be a really solid unit. -David KimLooks like Widow Mines are getting a buff but it's not supply decrease. Now I'm curious.
Kim makes valid points, since the mines can be reproduced so quickly. Even just three reactored factories, the terran player could make 18 mines a Blizzard-minute. And the unit also requires no actions from the terran player to operate once they are deployed. It makes sense that they don’t want the game be totally focused on mine fields and have 20-30 mines deployed at one time, replacing them as you opponent slowly works through them. We see what problems terran has with removing creep tumors, and those don’t even explode.
If they are going to buff the unit in another way, that is totally fine. Making it immune to friendly splash damage wouldn’t be bad at all. Or do more damage to the primary target. Or an armor debuff to all units caught in the blast.
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On September 21 2012 04:13 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 03:54 SarcasmMonster wrote:Widow mine is a 160 damage unit that instantly 2-4 shots the strongest, latest tier units in the game. Not to mention you can build them two at a time with a 20 sec build time on each. We don't think it'll be a good idea to have these guys be 1 pop especially for the 200/200 supply cases.
We do agree that the Widow Mine is not at an amazing place right now, but we think fixing the unit itself to be good is a priority than just simply lowering the supply cost to 1.
We have more changes for the Widow Mine this week as well so please check them out, and please note one of our top priorities in the up coming weeks is to have the Widow Mine be a really solid unit. -David KimLooks like Widow Mines are getting a buff but it's not supply decrease. Now I'm curious. Kim makes valid points, since the mines can be reproduced so quickly. Even just three reactored factories, the terran player could make 18 mines a Blizzard-minute. And the unit also requires no actions from the terran player to operate once they are deployed. It makes sense that they don’t want the game be totally focused on mine fields and have 20-30 mines deployed at one time, replacing them as you opponent slowly works through them. We see what problems terran has with removing creep tumors, and those don’t even explode. If they are going to buff the unit in another way, that is totally fine. Making it immune to friendly splash damage wouldn’t be bad at all. Or do more damage to the primary target. Or an armor debuff to all units caught in the blast.
I still feel like 2 supply is too much but I'll hold back criticism until I see what the actual buff is.
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On September 21 2012 01:59 MoonCricket wrote: it might be more interesting to add Firebats back to Barracks/Techlab tech in order to force Mech to utilize both the Barracks for "anti-Zealot" meat shields and the Starport for "anti-air" while giving Bio an "upgrade" as well in the Zerg and Protoss match ups. This isn't optimal because then you'd have to invest in Infantry upgrades as well. People would just end up going pure bio in TvP with Medivac/Viking/Ghost as they do now.
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On September 21 2012 04:18 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 04:13 Plansix wrote:On September 21 2012 03:54 SarcasmMonster wrote:Widow mine is a 160 damage unit that instantly 2-4 shots the strongest, latest tier units in the game. Not to mention you can build them two at a time with a 20 sec build time on each. We don't think it'll be a good idea to have these guys be 1 pop especially for the 200/200 supply cases.
We do agree that the Widow Mine is not at an amazing place right now, but we think fixing the unit itself to be good is a priority than just simply lowering the supply cost to 1.
We have more changes for the Widow Mine this week as well so please check them out, and please note one of our top priorities in the up coming weeks is to have the Widow Mine be a really solid unit. -David KimLooks like Widow Mines are getting a buff but it's not supply decrease. Now I'm curious. Kim makes valid points, since the mines can be reproduced so quickly. Even just three reactored factories, the terran player could make 18 mines a Blizzard-minute. And the unit also requires no actions from the terran player to operate once they are deployed. It makes sense that they don’t want the game be totally focused on mine fields and have 20-30 mines deployed at one time, replacing them as you opponent slowly works through them. We see what problems terran has with removing creep tumors, and those don’t even explode. If they are going to buff the unit in another way, that is totally fine. Making it immune to friendly splash damage wouldn’t be bad at all. Or do more damage to the primary target. Or an armor debuff to all units caught in the blast. I still feel like 2 supply is too much but I'll hold back criticism until I see what the actual buff is.
It could be, but I also want eight mines to be more effective than eight marines. Eight marines can’t take out a colossi, but eight mines could without a second thought. A unit like that is very hard to balance and blizzard would likely have to nerf it to much to make it one supply. A 2 supply mine that is awesome is better than an one supply mine that is little more than a speed bump.
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On September 21 2012 04:06 Crawdad wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 03:54 SarcasmMonster wrote: Looks like Widow Mines are getting a buff but it's not supply decrease. Now I'm curious. He also said this: Show nested quote + Our latest thinking on HotS mech:
1. All mech revolving around Siege Tanks makes Terran want to sit back and defend for a very long time. We're not sure what the correct ratio of this sort of play would be against how Terran players play now.
2. Mech revolving around a more all round/slightly mobile didn't work out with the Warhound.
3. Widow Mine being a more useful option is looking to be a really fun add to mech. We really want to focus on making this unit awesome for now and see where it goes.
4. Battle mode Hellions being built as a separate unit feels good for now due to how different this unit is from the hellion. We've been playing around with Battle Hellions that have Biological flag (can be healed my Medivacs), and are seeing more bio + mech cominations.
So overall, we think it'll be good if players in the beta really focus on the Widow Mines and Battle Hellions in the next couple weeks to really figure out their potential.
So it looks like they're really investing in the Widow mine.
Point 4 is hilarious, Battle Hellions aren't just cheaper, better, mass produced Firebats but now they're healable with SCVs and Medivacs on top of that with Blue Flame upgrades ... right ...
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Am i the only one who feels like a buff to the tank would be appropriate. With the addition of the viper, zerg has a better answer to tank heavy play late game. This would allow for a buff to happen which might make tanks more viable in TvP. Then the tank might be able to fulfill the role that the warhound was supposed to have.
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Sup guys zergling and mutalisk obselete in zvt.
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On September 21 2012 04:48 Ordien wrote: Am i the only one who feels like a buff to the tank would be appropriate. With the addition of the viper, zerg has a better answer to tank heavy play late game. This would allow for a buff to happen which might make tanks more viable in TvP. Then the tank might be able to fulfill the role that the warhound was supposed to have. The tank buff would have to be late game then. Just adding an armory upgrade of some sort wouldn't make it late game either, since Terrans can get there pretty quickly. Maybe just have each ground attack upgrade add a lot more damage to tank shots? It would work, but I don't think Blizzard likes such inconsistencies.
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http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6606902604
Widow Mine Splash damage has increased from 35 to 60.
Wow, that will blast holes into armies. Not sure if I like it.
Also:
Battle Hellion While in Battle mode, the hellion is now classified as a Biological unit.
Why? The only reason I can think of right now is to stop mass-repair on them, which gets fucked over by the fact that Battle Hellions will now be healable by Medivacs, that's tanky as hell.
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On September 21 2012 07:11 Grapefruit wrote:http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6606902604Wow, that will blast holes into armies. Not sure if I like it. Also: Show nested quote +Battle Hellion While in Battle mode, the hellion is now classified as a Biological unit. Why? The only reason I can think of right now is to stop mass-repair on them, which gets fucked over by the fact that Battle Hellions will now be healable by Medivacs, that's tanky as hell. No, it is just straight buff. They maybe even let them be mechanical and biological at the same time, because fuck logic. And this isn't a bad thing, encourages making Medivacs when you go for mech, and dropping all over the map. It also supports Battle Hellions in straight up battles, by being able to heal them from behind.
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On September 21 2012 04:35 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 04:18 SarcasmMonster wrote:On September 21 2012 04:13 Plansix wrote:On September 21 2012 03:54 SarcasmMonster wrote:Widow mine is a 160 damage unit that instantly 2-4 shots the strongest, latest tier units in the game. Not to mention you can build them two at a time with a 20 sec build time on each. We don't think it'll be a good idea to have these guys be 1 pop especially for the 200/200 supply cases.
We do agree that the Widow Mine is not at an amazing place right now, but we think fixing the unit itself to be good is a priority than just simply lowering the supply cost to 1.
We have more changes for the Widow Mine this week as well so please check them out, and please note one of our top priorities in the up coming weeks is to have the Widow Mine be a really solid unit. -David KimLooks like Widow Mines are getting a buff but it's not supply decrease. Now I'm curious. Kim makes valid points, since the mines can be reproduced so quickly. Even just three reactored factories, the terran player could make 18 mines a Blizzard-minute. And the unit also requires no actions from the terran player to operate once they are deployed. It makes sense that they don’t want the game be totally focused on mine fields and have 20-30 mines deployed at one time, replacing them as you opponent slowly works through them. We see what problems terran has with removing creep tumors, and those don’t even explode. If they are going to buff the unit in another way, that is totally fine. Making it immune to friendly splash damage wouldn’t be bad at all. Or do more damage to the primary target. Or an armor debuff to all units caught in the blast. I still feel like 2 supply is too much but I'll hold back criticism until I see what the actual buff is. It could be, but I also want eight mines to be more effective than eight marines. Eight marines can’t take out a colossi, but eight mines could without a second thought. A unit like that is very hard to balance and blizzard would likely have to nerf it to much to make it one supply. A 2 supply mine that is awesome is better than an one supply mine that is little more than a speed bump.
i think in a world where widow mines actually take out colosus in a real game then protoss player would deserve to loose. Do colosus lead the army? are they in the front lines? the mines will always blow up on the front lines first.. which is either the zealots / stalkers or archons. Mines trading with zealots is MEH( not bad , but not particularly good for the terran either) . Its basically trading some gas for minerals, And protoss is mainly gas dependant, so it barely makes a difference if you loose a couple of zealots to mine fields.
I think the buff is fine for now. Supply cost still an issue, but willing to ignore that for now. The mine buff will have a much bigger effect in TvT with marine tank play i thinks, each one going off is a a group of marines dead. It looking heavily mech favored for TvT , which isnt that bad, but kinda sad . Maybe the bio-battlehellions can soak up most of the damage. But i think marauders will play an even more pivotal role in clearing out the mine fields first. Any pure marine army gonna be completely raped :D
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On September 21 2012 07:30 johnny123 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 04:35 Plansix wrote:On September 21 2012 04:18 SarcasmMonster wrote:On September 21 2012 04:13 Plansix wrote:On September 21 2012 03:54 SarcasmMonster wrote:Widow mine is a 160 damage unit that instantly 2-4 shots the strongest, latest tier units in the game. Not to mention you can build them two at a time with a 20 sec build time on each. We don't think it'll be a good idea to have these guys be 1 pop especially for the 200/200 supply cases.
We do agree that the Widow Mine is not at an amazing place right now, but we think fixing the unit itself to be good is a priority than just simply lowering the supply cost to 1.
We have more changes for the Widow Mine this week as well so please check them out, and please note one of our top priorities in the up coming weeks is to have the Widow Mine be a really solid unit. -David KimLooks like Widow Mines are getting a buff but it's not supply decrease. Now I'm curious. Kim makes valid points, since the mines can be reproduced so quickly. Even just three reactored factories, the terran player could make 18 mines a Blizzard-minute. And the unit also requires no actions from the terran player to operate once they are deployed. It makes sense that they don’t want the game be totally focused on mine fields and have 20-30 mines deployed at one time, replacing them as you opponent slowly works through them. We see what problems terran has with removing creep tumors, and those don’t even explode. If they are going to buff the unit in another way, that is totally fine. Making it immune to friendly splash damage wouldn’t be bad at all. Or do more damage to the primary target. Or an armor debuff to all units caught in the blast. I still feel like 2 supply is too much but I'll hold back criticism until I see what the actual buff is. It could be, but I also want eight mines to be more effective than eight marines. Eight marines can’t take out a colossi, but eight mines could without a second thought. A unit like that is very hard to balance and blizzard would likely have to nerf it to much to make it one supply. A 2 supply mine that is awesome is better than an one supply mine that is little more than a speed bump. i think in a world where widow mines actually take out colosus in a real game then protoss player would deserve to loose. Do colosus lead the army? are they in the front lines? the mines will always blow up on the front lines first.. which is either the zealots / stalkers or archons. Mines trading with zealots is MEH( not bad , but not particularly good for the terran either) . Its basically trading some gas for minerals, And protoss is mainly gas dependant, so it barely makes a difference if you loose a couple of zealots to mine fields. I think the buff is fine for now. Supply cost still an issue, but willing to ignore that for now. The mine buff will have a much bigger effect in TvT with marine tank play i thinks, each one going off is a a group of marines dead. It looking heavily mech favored for TvT , which isnt that bad, but kinda sad . Maybe the bio-battlehellions can soak up most of the damage. Do you realize that you can kill the Observers with, for example, Vikings, and that you can turn the auto-attack off with the Widow Mines, and just attack Colossi with them? It isn't so hard at all.
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On September 21 2012 07:00 archon256 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 04:48 Ordien wrote: Am i the only one who feels like a buff to the tank would be appropriate. With the addition of the viper, zerg has a better answer to tank heavy play late game. This would allow for a buff to happen which might make tanks more viable in TvP. Then the tank might be able to fulfill the role that the warhound was supposed to have. The tank buff would have to be late game then. Just adding an armory upgrade of some sort wouldn't make it late game either, since Terrans can get there pretty quickly. Maybe just have each ground attack upgrade add a lot more damage to tank shots? It would work, but I don't think Blizzard likes such inconsistencies. I guess you're right. However if such a buff would occur it would make TvP more interesting overall, as terran would have more viable strategies than just MMM w/ ghost and vikings. TBH TvP is getting a little boring to me and id love to see some change in the matchup. And i just feel like the tank would be a good way to make this change
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MorroW just builds missile turrets next to his mines at this point.
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morrow is NOT a top level pro he's barely code B also it still took him 6 games before winning a single match against toss and it was at the cost of toss performing a failed DT cheese rush. as for building turrets next to mines what good does that do? you WANT the mine to kill the unit, turrets generally keep things away and even then stalkers/colossi outrange mines, theyll just kill the turret first before moving their obs to kill the mine. honestly widow mines are stupid because half of them dont even kill anything. Also with the new patch that defines battle hellions as bio...wtf? so basically chargelot/archon will shred that to pieces as well. even with the addition of ghost emp to tank/battle hellion that's not a fair resource trade. youll ALWAYS have to be ahead of toss to win that fight. I FUCKING HATE YOU BLIZZARD. get your shit together and listen to the TERRAN community rather than paying attention ONLY to toss players and nerfing the balls off every thing that is terran.
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I just don't understand the incentive to make most of the Terran units yet. I probably should play a lot more games before making any judgements, but from 8-10 games that's my feeling. New reapers are definitely cool but the rest of the units haven't realy impressed me.
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Looks like Widow Mines have lots of potential after the patch. Still would like it to be 1 supply though.
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I am not a Terran player but I am also underwhelmed by the HotS units. Months ago when they revealed the units I was excited but now they just seem lazy and just remove shit from the game (new nyduses, warhound, replicator...) I mean why tease us with that shit in the first place? Now it just seems more of the same game to me when I thought they really had a chance to make a huge leap in the design of the game.
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On September 21 2012 07:38 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 07:30 johnny123 wrote:On September 21 2012 04:35 Plansix wrote:On September 21 2012 04:18 SarcasmMonster wrote:On September 21 2012 04:13 Plansix wrote:On September 21 2012 03:54 SarcasmMonster wrote:Widow mine is a 160 damage unit that instantly 2-4 shots the strongest, latest tier units in the game. Not to mention you can build them two at a time with a 20 sec build time on each. We don't think it'll be a good idea to have these guys be 1 pop especially for the 200/200 supply cases.
We do agree that the Widow Mine is not at an amazing place right now, but we think fixing the unit itself to be good is a priority than just simply lowering the supply cost to 1.
We have more changes for the Widow Mine this week as well so please check them out, and please note one of our top priorities in the up coming weeks is to have the Widow Mine be a really solid unit. -David KimLooks like Widow Mines are getting a buff but it's not supply decrease. Now I'm curious. Kim makes valid points, since the mines can be reproduced so quickly. Even just three reactored factories, the terran player could make 18 mines a Blizzard-minute. And the unit also requires no actions from the terran player to operate once they are deployed. It makes sense that they don’t want the game be totally focused on mine fields and have 20-30 mines deployed at one time, replacing them as you opponent slowly works through them. We see what problems terran has with removing creep tumors, and those don’t even explode. If they are going to buff the unit in another way, that is totally fine. Making it immune to friendly splash damage wouldn’t be bad at all. Or do more damage to the primary target. Or an armor debuff to all units caught in the blast. I still feel like 2 supply is too much but I'll hold back criticism until I see what the actual buff is. It could be, but I also want eight mines to be more effective than eight marines. Eight marines can’t take out a colossi, but eight mines could without a second thought. A unit like that is very hard to balance and blizzard would likely have to nerf it to much to make it one supply. A 2 supply mine that is awesome is better than an one supply mine that is little more than a speed bump. i think in a world where widow mines actually take out colosus in a real game then protoss player would deserve to loose. Do colosus lead the army? are they in the front lines? the mines will always blow up on the front lines first.. which is either the zealots / stalkers or archons. Mines trading with zealots is MEH( not bad , but not particularly good for the terran either) . Its basically trading some gas for minerals, And protoss is mainly gas dependant, so it barely makes a difference if you loose a couple of zealots to mine fields. I think the buff is fine for now. Supply cost still an issue, but willing to ignore that for now. The mine buff will have a much bigger effect in TvT with marine tank play i thinks, each one going off is a a group of marines dead. It looking heavily mech favored for TvT , which isnt that bad, but kinda sad . Maybe the bio-battlehellions can soak up most of the damage. Do you realize that you can kill the Observers with, for example, Vikings, and that you can turn the auto-attack off with the Widow Mines, and just attack Colossi with them? It isn't so hard at all.
Sounds good...oh wait:
Revelation Caster: Oracle Energy 50 Range: 9 Duration: 45s Radius: 6 Hotkey: R Reveals enemy units within target area. Units reveal cannot cloak and will remain visible while burrowed for 45 seconds.
Blizzard probably though maphack like observers aren't enough and that toss needs their own version of scanner sweep as well. Good luck trying to kill all the detection before you run out of vikings...
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On September 21 2012 23:44 L0thar wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 07:38 Ramiz1989 wrote:On September 21 2012 07:30 johnny123 wrote:On September 21 2012 04:35 Plansix wrote:On September 21 2012 04:18 SarcasmMonster wrote:On September 21 2012 04:13 Plansix wrote:On September 21 2012 03:54 SarcasmMonster wrote:Widow mine is a 160 damage unit that instantly 2-4 shots the strongest, latest tier units in the game. Not to mention you can build them two at a time with a 20 sec build time on each. We don't think it'll be a good idea to have these guys be 1 pop especially for the 200/200 supply cases.
We do agree that the Widow Mine is not at an amazing place right now, but we think fixing the unit itself to be good is a priority than just simply lowering the supply cost to 1.
We have more changes for the Widow Mine this week as well so please check them out, and please note one of our top priorities in the up coming weeks is to have the Widow Mine be a really solid unit. -David KimLooks like Widow Mines are getting a buff but it's not supply decrease. Now I'm curious. Kim makes valid points, since the mines can be reproduced so quickly. Even just three reactored factories, the terran player could make 18 mines a Blizzard-minute. And the unit also requires no actions from the terran player to operate once they are deployed. It makes sense that they don’t want the game be totally focused on mine fields and have 20-30 mines deployed at one time, replacing them as you opponent slowly works through them. We see what problems terran has with removing creep tumors, and those don’t even explode. If they are going to buff the unit in another way, that is totally fine. Making it immune to friendly splash damage wouldn’t be bad at all. Or do more damage to the primary target. Or an armor debuff to all units caught in the blast. I still feel like 2 supply is too much but I'll hold back criticism until I see what the actual buff is. It could be, but I also want eight mines to be more effective than eight marines. Eight marines can’t take out a colossi, but eight mines could without a second thought. A unit like that is very hard to balance and blizzard would likely have to nerf it to much to make it one supply. A 2 supply mine that is awesome is better than an one supply mine that is little more than a speed bump. i think in a world where widow mines actually take out colosus in a real game then protoss player would deserve to loose. Do colosus lead the army? are they in the front lines? the mines will always blow up on the front lines first.. which is either the zealots / stalkers or archons. Mines trading with zealots is MEH( not bad , but not particularly good for the terran either) . Its basically trading some gas for minerals, And protoss is mainly gas dependant, so it barely makes a difference if you loose a couple of zealots to mine fields. I think the buff is fine for now. Supply cost still an issue, but willing to ignore that for now. The mine buff will have a much bigger effect in TvT with marine tank play i thinks, each one going off is a a group of marines dead. It looking heavily mech favored for TvT , which isnt that bad, but kinda sad . Maybe the bio-battlehellions can soak up most of the damage. Do you realize that you can kill the Observers with, for example, Vikings, and that you can turn the auto-attack off with the Widow Mines, and just attack Colossi with them? It isn't so hard at all. Sounds good...oh wait: Show nested quote +Revelation Caster: Oracle Energy 50 Range: 9 Duration: 45s Radius: 6 Hotkey: R Reveals enemy units within target area. Units reveal cannot cloak and will remain visible while burrowed for 45 seconds. Blizzard probably though maphack like observers aren't enough and that toss needs their own version of scanner sweep as well. Good luck trying to kill all the detection before you run out of vikings...
Oracle is so risky, one bad move and BAM! the widow mine takes it out.
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On September 21 2012 23:46 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 23:44 L0thar wrote:On September 21 2012 07:38 Ramiz1989 wrote:On September 21 2012 07:30 johnny123 wrote:On September 21 2012 04:35 Plansix wrote:On September 21 2012 04:18 SarcasmMonster wrote:On September 21 2012 04:13 Plansix wrote:On September 21 2012 03:54 SarcasmMonster wrote:Widow mine is a 160 damage unit that instantly 2-4 shots the strongest, latest tier units in the game. Not to mention you can build them two at a time with a 20 sec build time on each. We don't think it'll be a good idea to have these guys be 1 pop especially for the 200/200 supply cases.
We do agree that the Widow Mine is not at an amazing place right now, but we think fixing the unit itself to be good is a priority than just simply lowering the supply cost to 1.
We have more changes for the Widow Mine this week as well so please check them out, and please note one of our top priorities in the up coming weeks is to have the Widow Mine be a really solid unit. -David KimLooks like Widow Mines are getting a buff but it's not supply decrease. Now I'm curious. Kim makes valid points, since the mines can be reproduced so quickly. Even just three reactored factories, the terran player could make 18 mines a Blizzard-minute. And the unit also requires no actions from the terran player to operate once they are deployed. It makes sense that they don’t want the game be totally focused on mine fields and have 20-30 mines deployed at one time, replacing them as you opponent slowly works through them. We see what problems terran has with removing creep tumors, and those don’t even explode. If they are going to buff the unit in another way, that is totally fine. Making it immune to friendly splash damage wouldn’t be bad at all. Or do more damage to the primary target. Or an armor debuff to all units caught in the blast. I still feel like 2 supply is too much but I'll hold back criticism until I see what the actual buff is. It could be, but I also want eight mines to be more effective than eight marines. Eight marines can’t take out a colossi, but eight mines could without a second thought. A unit like that is very hard to balance and blizzard would likely have to nerf it to much to make it one supply. A 2 supply mine that is awesome is better than an one supply mine that is little more than a speed bump. i think in a world where widow mines actually take out colosus in a real game then protoss player would deserve to loose. Do colosus lead the army? are they in the front lines? the mines will always blow up on the front lines first.. which is either the zealots / stalkers or archons. Mines trading with zealots is MEH( not bad , but not particularly good for the terran either) . Its basically trading some gas for minerals, And protoss is mainly gas dependant, so it barely makes a difference if you loose a couple of zealots to mine fields. I think the buff is fine for now. Supply cost still an issue, but willing to ignore that for now. The mine buff will have a much bigger effect in TvT with marine tank play i thinks, each one going off is a a group of marines dead. It looking heavily mech favored for TvT , which isnt that bad, but kinda sad . Maybe the bio-battlehellions can soak up most of the damage. Do you realize that you can kill the Observers with, for example, Vikings, and that you can turn the auto-attack off with the Widow Mines, and just attack Colossi with them? It isn't so hard at all. Sounds good...oh wait: Revelation Caster: Oracle Energy 50 Range: 9 Duration: 45s Radius: 6 Hotkey: R Reveals enemy units within target area. Units reveal cannot cloak and will remain visible while burrowed for 45 seconds. Blizzard probably though maphack like observers aren't enough and that toss needs their own version of scanner sweep as well. Good luck trying to kill all the detection before you run out of vikings... Oracle is so risky, one bad move and BAM! the widow mine takes it out.
Only when you have mines at the exact point where the oracle is flying by. To achieve this you have to be either happy and stupid to put down ~4 mines(per base) für an Oracle when Turrets will do a better job at this
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On September 21 2012 19:59 hiimjimmeh wrote: morrow is NOT a top level pro he's barely code B also it still took him 6 games before winning a single match against toss and it was at the cost of toss performing a failed DT cheese rush. as for building turrets next to mines what good does that do?
I was joking, LOL.
On September 21 2012 19:59 hiimjimmeh wrote: you WANT the mine to kill the unit, turrets generally keep things away and even then stalkers/colossi outrange mines, theyll just kill the turret first before moving their obs to kill the mine. honestly widow mines are stupid because half of them dont even kill anything.
I encourage you to experiment more with the Widow mine or watch more games, because this is far from true.
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I find it hilarious that the only significant changes to terran in HoTS is, in fact, a nerf (for the ghost). lol! Ok there is the battle hellion (which gives like 30 more hp per hellion? fantastic! not...)
It's not that I want Terran to be better than the other races in hots, it's just that I don't see many changes to address the issues terran has with bio play. Mech is already good against zerg and terran, but it is quite frankly boring to watch in many cases.
I reckon if widow mines weren't a unit, but an ability that could be casted by hellions (for a price, of say 50/25, if they were free it would be op), and the damage was nerfed then it would be much better.
I'm also disappointed by the general lack of content in the HoTS expansion. Not regarding single play campaign, the only real changes seem to be a few units and mechanics made easier.
Blizzard aren't making sc2 more interesting with hots.. I've seen many pros streaming the beta, and just don't see anything that I consider to be particularly interesting. Protoss gets more gimicks (with the mothership core; man is that gonna be frustrating to play against), zerg gets some solid good units, and terran stays the same.
It's about time another company made an RTS that is fit for esports, imo.
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On September 22 2012 00:19 Mongoose wrote: I find it hilarious that the only significant changes to terran in HoTS is, in fact, a nerf (for the ghost). lol! Ok there is the battle hellion (which gives like 30 more hp per hellion? fantastic! not...)
It's not that I want Terran to be better than the other races in hots, it's just that I don't see many changes to address the issues terran has with bio play. Mech is already good against zerg and terran, but it is quite frankly boring to watch in many cases.
I reckon if widow mines weren't a unit, but an ability that could be casted by hellions (for a price, of say 50/25, if they were free it would be op), and the damage was nerfed then it would be much better.
I'm also disappointed by the general lack of content in the HoTS expansion. Not regarding single play campaign, the only real changes seem to be a few units and mechanics made easier.
Blizzard aren't making sc2 more interesting with hots.. I've seen many pros streaming the beta, and just don't see anything that I consider to be particularly interesting. Protoss gets more gimicks (with the mothership core; man is that gonna be frustrating to play against), zerg gets some solid good units, and terran stays the same.
It's about time another company made an RTS that is fit for esports, imo.
i cant even consider hots an expansion, its more like a dlc with the amount of new mp content it gives.. it should cost like 15$ max, srsly i dont care about its dumb sp story...
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Widow Mine Splash damage has increased from 35 to 60.
Wow....
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I'm incredibly displeased with HotS as a terran player. I hate going pure bio.
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On September 15 2012 20:55 Wildmoon wrote: I am terran too but I am more toward making the game better not giving cool things to terran. I think terran is the most complete race in SC2 right now. It doesn't really need any groundbreaking change in its gameplay. Some buff and support unit for mech are enough.
tell me what did u smoke plz i wannabe as high as you
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Why doesn't blizzard just make HSM 100 energy but make it so one raven can't have 2 at once. The problem with ravens most terrans have with is it takes too long to get enough of them after scouting his BL/Festor army to actually stop the zerg deathball. If they just made it to 100 energy it wouldn't be as much of a hassle to buy 5 minutes of time to get enough ravens to even try to engage zerg BL/festor armies. And if you made it so 1 raven couldn't have 2 seeker missles then the terran wouldnt be able just to spam them and wipe out armies with total ease.
Really I feel that blizzard needs to understand that it takes soo long to get enough ravens with enough energy to be able to cope with zerg armies. I see countless games were the terran is starts to get ravens after seeing the zergs brood lords and then dies because he's only been able to get around 4 ravens the the zerg is just 1aing into his base and fungaling the terrans units.
So, If they just bascilly made it faster to get ravens up with HSM without it being OP, as a masters terran i would be complety fine with the game as we would finally have a lategame unit that is GOOD.
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On September 22 2012 11:14 dArkko wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2012 20:55 Wildmoon wrote: I am terran too but I am more toward making the game better not giving cool things to terran. I think terran is the most complete race in SC2 right now. It doesn't really need any groundbreaking change in its gameplay. Some buff and support unit for mech are enough. tell me what did u smoke plz i wannabe as high as you hey man let me get some of that stuff too. I still can't understand why people think that terran is the most complete race in sc2 and it's not even close to where it can be 3 factory units don't even cut it in WOL and a bio hellion and a redundant spider mine don't even make up a ground mech army in HOTS.
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So far it's very dissapointing, mech doesn't work TvP and TvZ lategame is still stupid. I don't want to switch races so if bio is still the way to go at the end of the beta I won't buy the game.
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I would've preferred to get the horribly designed race mechanics and useless units completely overhauled and removed, respectively. Rather then see a poorly designed unit added and subsequently removed, my end game units fixed, my casters reworked, and another unit just have all the wrong numbers.
Don't be so doom and gloom Terrans.
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On September 22 2012 23:36 Rumpus wrote: I would've preferred to get the horribly designed race mechanics and useless units completely overhauled and removed, respectively. Rather then see a poorly designed unit added and subsequently removed, my end game units fixed, my casters reworked, and another unit just have all the wrong numbers.
Don't be so doom and gloom Terrans.
its easy to say that when you dont play terran =P
for me I'm hyped by the Widow mine, I loved spider mines in BW, and I cant wait to see if they can be used in a similar fashion. Right now 2 supply is just bad. But if they leave it 2 supply then hopefully they will buff it to be useful. I think for that to happen the splash radius needs to increase.
Other than that, HoTs looks pretty awful to me. In my experience, Battle hellions dont solve the TVP mech problem, because tanks dont do enough damage to upgraded zealots. Really they are only good against zerglings, which I dont think they intended to really make a counter like that. Its better than it was before, but you still need a supply depot or bunker wall to have it be truly effective late game, which is not good if you have to push out. You are still instantly dead if you get caught with even half your tanks unseiged, its still by no means "working".
The main reason I am disappointed though isnt the units, its because terran will continue to play Bio in virtually every matchup, its better in almost every way than mech unless you get a super small map on close positions. TvT will still see some difference in play but thats no different than now, battle hellions are useless against stimmed marines/marauders with medivacs because they dont have the range to be effective or the speed to make up the difference.
Im just bummed because virtually every matchup will be played the same as it was in WOL where as protoss and in particular zerg have various options to look at.
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On September 23 2012 00:15 Darpa wrote: Other than that, HoTs looks pretty awful to me. In my experience, Battle hellions dont solve the TVP mech problem, because tanks dont do enough damage to upgraded zealots. Really they are only good against zerglings, which I dont think they intended to really make a counter like that.
Chargelots melt as soon as they hit BHs. The real problem is Immortals.
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On September 23 2012 00:17 Crawdad wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2012 00:15 Darpa wrote: Other than that, HoTs looks pretty awful to me. In my experience, Battle hellions dont solve the TVP mech problem, because tanks dont do enough damage to upgraded zealots. Really they are only good against zerglings, which I dont think they intended to really make a counter like that. Chargelots melt as soon as they hit BHs. The real problem is Immortals.
yea I have the beta and I am playing mech, you can kill every single unit but inmortals don't die and they will rape your siege line
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On September 23 2012 00:29 Berceno wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2012 00:17 Crawdad wrote:On September 23 2012 00:15 Darpa wrote: Other than that, HoTs looks pretty awful to me. In my experience, Battle hellions dont solve the TVP mech problem, because tanks dont do enough damage to upgraded zealots. Really they are only good against zerglings, which I dont think they intended to really make a counter like that. Chargelots melt as soon as they hit BHs. The real problem is Immortals. yea I have the beta and I am playing mech, you can kill every single unit but inmortals don't die and they will rape your siege line
SC2 mech plays out a bit differently than BW.
A typical reaction to mech is for the protoss player to mass up immortals and chargelots. It goes without saying that ghosts with emp does wonders vs this. In my experience you absolutely need ghosts with mech. The transition to ghosts is not always easy to make though. The problem will be when the protoss opens up colossus. As with MMM the terran has to make vikings since any early 3 colossus attack can own you otherwise. As the colossus numbers build up your viking number needs to grow.
I usually start making ghosts once I secure 4 bases. Until that point I deal with immortals and archons by adding in 5-7 banshees in the army. I upgrade cloak and put lots of turrets in front of my army. I also put other buildings like depots and a few planetary fortresses to make the area in front op my army full of obstacles and chokes. Before a protoss attack I will spread out the banshees and cloak them. The turrets will most of the time snipe the observers so that they can operate freely. Then I focus fire immortals and archons and tries to direct the siege tank fire to low hp archons and immortals without shields. The beauty is that banshees without damage does full damage to protoss shields since protoss will upgrade armor and weapons first. Buildings in the way + hellions + banshees and vikings will make it so that your tanks get more rounds off. The chokes will also cause the army to clump up even more so that hellion and tank splash is more effective.
Even in master league most protosses will burn the zealot charge on a PF or even a turret because they a-move their army with charge on auto-attack.
With a careful setup the protoss cant attack you head on. He has to try to catch you off guard with drops , blink etc. If you can get to a point where you have 10 ghosts with your mech army you are golden. It is very rewarding to absolutely stomp protoss ground armies to the ground with mech + blanket emp's.
Ghosts can also utilize nukes for harass and to cover flanks and retreat paths.
A lot of terrans try mech and then goes *herp derp* my tanks are getting owned by immortals - mech is not viable in TvP!
In reality it is a completely different playstyle than MMM, a playstyle that takes as much experience and practice.
There are a lot of resources for TvP mech. Check out the thread by Lyyna. Also check out Goody and Avilo. They are the two players that have most experience with mech in the matchup. At least to my knowledge. My play has been very inspired by watching Avilo's stream and studying his replays. On his twitter you can find a ghost mech TvP replay pack.
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On September 15 2012 21:07 DemigodcelpH wrote: HotS = Heart of Terran Suffering
It's almost satirical that they would finally address the BC and the Raven and go "oops it was a bug".
THIS
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Ok am I missing something? Let's look at the unit additions to HOTS;
Terran: 1--upgrade to hellion 2--widow mine 3---Reaper upgrade
Zerg: 1---swarm host 2---viper (great new caster, not like infestor was bad enough) 3--burrow charge ultra 4---speed hydras
Protoss 1---Mothership core (with some ridiculously good spells) 2---Oracle (i mean hi temps were a powerful caster already, but hey fuck terran right) Phase shields make it retarded how good it will be. And it can see what you are building and block minerals, and i believe cloak your army. 3---Tempest
So we are clear, terran got no new casters, our raven is still worthless, our entire tier 2.5---3 is worthless and unusable. So everyone else got these amazing new abilities (recall, blinding cloud, viper pull, phase shields, etc etc) and we still can't use ravens or even get a another caster. So we are stuck with a reaper that is only good at very early game, since there is no more building dmg it is worthless past 6 min, and therefore terran late game still screwed. Battle hellion is a good buff, but still no late game viability, it helps, but fungal, broods, colosus, storm, infested terrans, blinding cloud, vortex, ultras, roaches, stalkers, and tempest make it worthless late game. And the widow mine which is nice, but it is super situational and will not be a long term viable unit.
All and all terran is getting screwed yet again and will still be worthless in the late game and will now have to deal with a bunch of new OP spells and abilities?!?!????
Blizzard needs to fix the raven and give us some sort of usefull caster. That way toss and zerg can learn to micro away from a HSM, or god forbid something that allows us to "a-click and cast" like zerg and toss do now.
Blizzard is not listening to the community at all and just doing these drastic changes every patch, like where the hell was the alpha testing so that all of these major changes weren't needed and people could actually develop a meta game that real balance could be designed from.
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OP, i agree with your points.
I stopped playing more then half a year ago, i didn't felt like blizzard knew what they were doing regarding the general direction of the game, core problems remained untouched, and the game just started to feel boring and lacking depth.
After all this time, i picked up beta, looking forward to restarting playing hardcore again but i quickly got disappointed.
Like i already said today in another thread, the development/balancing team clearly lacks imagination and understanding of what are competitive mechanics, so they will sluggishly and stubbornly patch by patch and expansion by expansion just import old BW concepts one by one, due to lack of proper new ones, until the game is a complete port.
I dont think it is even worth mentioning these Terran upgrades, wtf were this guys doing for 2 years? Wtf was the deal with the Warhound? Were they just looking for an excuse to make a blunt copy of the juggernaut from warhammer 40k? And i see the Raven, BC and Thor´s Strike Cannon are going to be untouched, i don´t even....
Here is my tip for fellow Terran players, if you don´t want to spend yet another 1-2 years doing marine splits and dodging aoe-shitstorms in all match-ups, just wait for the last expand, and even then wait a couple of patches. When the game will be "complete" it surely will be much more enjoyable and much less frustrating.
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The widow mine is ridiculously good early game if you turn off auto attack as it burrows and manually attack with them. They one shot queens, invalidate banelings/slings, and are pretty much siege tanks but better for 75/25 with a 20s build time. At least at that point in the game.
They also drastically change TvT and generally make you obscenely safe early on against pretty much everything.
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I find it hard to grasp that people would consider the raven useless. Are you stupid?
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On September 23 2012 03:05 stard1n wrote: I find it hard to grasp that people would consider the raven useless. Are you stupid? Raven is okay. It's really not that good if your opponents split properly, and it's ridiculously easy to split against HSM compared to splitting vs fungal (or even banelings, which are significantly easier to split vs than fungal).
The raven has to literally run in to melee range, the missile then begins flying, and if you move away you gain a lot of time to split on top of the slow lead in time. HSM trades kind of even against brood lords and is great in viking vs mass antiair, but it's lackluster against ground (even unsplit) . It also costs a ton of gas and time, especially including upgrades.
PDD being changed to be significantly more effective vs Z by either:
-Stopping brood lord projectile so no units spawn (good for mech & bio) or -Stopping fungals as if it were an "instant" projectile (good for bio, mech indifferent)
would pretty much make the raven a core unit in the matchup.
100 energy cost for current PDD is steep. Especially when Ravens spawn with 75, turrets cost 50, and HSM costs 125 (out of 200). Changing PDD to 80 would be nice, or introducing a unique mechanic where it costs 80 but will "overcharge" and take 100 if you have it would be neat too. Or the PDD could cost 20, but every projectile it denies saps raven energy until the raven is dry. The raven would have to stay in the PDD radius or the pdd would die.
I mean there is a lot of wiggle room for experimenting with how ravens work. Their problem right now is they are one trick ponies, and their one trick is situational at best. You crank one out as emergency detection sometimes, or you crank some out to get HSM to attempt to control the air. Their first two abilities just aren't impressive, although turrets shouldn't be buffed at all.
If ghosts or ravens don't receive a vs Z buff of some kind during HotS I will be shocked. Ravens deserve a buff vs everything at this point. When is the last time you saw a raven do work in TvP? Back in the 1-1-1 and 2 base all-in days? In TvT you maybe see it with a viking to stop cloaked banshees. Against zerg you see it as a last resort vs air. HSM is probably fine as-is. PDD could use some love.
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Warhounds were so op but they should give you guys back Odin or diamondbacks!!!!!! OR EVEN WRAITHS!!!!!
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Terran has been broken for years, David Kim says we weren't built for the late game on purpose and mission accomplished Dayvie
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On September 23 2012 15:58 dreadlordx wrote: Terran has been broken for years, David Kim says we weren't built for the late game on purpose and mission accomplished Dayvie
oh come on, every race is designed to be good in 1 stage of the game let s talk about terran midgame just when medivacs pop out
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On September 23 2012 16:11 myRZeth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2012 15:58 dreadlordx wrote: Terran has been broken for years, David Kim says we weren't built for the late game on purpose and mission accomplished Dayvie oh come on, every race is designed to be good in 1 stage of the game let s talk about terran midgame just when medivacs pop out
Let's talk about it, terran gets own at all points in the game now, we are simply owned the most in the late game. When meds pop out, around 10-11 min, then you just set up static d or a few stalkers or a hi temp or any number of things to negate it, and that btw is all terran has (drops). If our drops are stopped we atuo lose to "a-click and cast" from zerg and toss
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You are both wrong. The game is fairly balanced at all stages of the game. There is absolutly no "after point X" or "at point Y" where only one race can dominate. (those are the latest winrate per gamelength stats I know about, from 13 Jun 2012 02:34:54 GMT - 15 Jul 2012 16:05:41 GMT - Ladder-Balance-Data)
http://i.imgur.com/YYbE4.png
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Let's talk about it, terran gets own at all points in the game now, we are simply owned the most in the late game. When meds pop out, around 10-11 min, then you just set up static d or a few stalkers or a hi temp or any number of things to negate it, and that btw is all terran has (drops). If our drops are stopped we atuo lose to "a-click and cast" from zerg and toss Hellions, banshees, tanks, ghosts... All great units, very effectively used by pros today in the biggest tourneys to succession including the GSL.
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the end game is the real problem here.. they have to give terran something that is interesting and works even at the later stages of the game. the warhound was badly designed, but dont just give up!
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On September 23 2012 16:21 Big J wrote:You are both wrong. The game is fairly balanced at all stages of the game. There is absolutly no "after point X" or "at point Y" where only one race can dominate. (those are the latest winrate per gamelength stats I know about, from 13 Jun 2012 02:34:54 GMT - 15 Jul 2012 16:05:41 GMT - Ladder-Balance-Data) http://i.imgur.com/YYbE4.png
What you seem to miss is one VERY important factor. This covers all leagues. In other words this covers games where Zergs in ZvT decide to go for a 30+ min Hydra drop with slow Overlords or similar stuff.
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I don't even play the damn game (I'm spectator only), and I can see how this would be bad for business.
You don't want an expansion that treats different players of the game with different levels of attention. Fine, WoL terran was the most fleshed out race. You know who's not going to care? The X% of your customer base who plays Terran. They're going to look back at BW and see that each race got roughly equal # of new units and cool shit.
Let's see what happens at the end of the Beta. If things end in a similar state to how they are now, I can't even imagine the clusterfuck that will follow for the 2-3 mo afterwards.
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On September 25 2012 08:07 mikedebo wrote: Let's see what happens at the end of the Beta. If things end in a similar state to how they are now, I can't even imagine the clusterfuck that will follow for the 2-3 mo afterwards.
What clusterfuck would that be and where would it come from? People don't seem terribly upset with the current state of beta.
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On September 25 2012 07:46 Grapefruit wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2012 16:21 Big J wrote:You are both wrong. The game is fairly balanced at all stages of the game. There is absolutly no "after point X" or "at point Y" where only one race can dominate. (those are the latest winrate per gamelength stats I know about, from 13 Jun 2012 02:34:54 GMT - 15 Jul 2012 16:05:41 GMT - Ladder-Balance-Data) http://i.imgur.com/YYbE4.png What you seem to miss is one VERY important factor. This covers all leagues. In other words this covers games where Zergs in ZvT decide to go for a 30+ min Hydra drop with slow Overlords or similar stuff.
Terrans are competitive in every major event. Taeja just won Valencia (versus another Terran). Balance is fantastic, although I would say it takes more skill to win at the highest levels with T.
Terran bitching is so 3 months ago.
I do hope you guys get a more dynamic innovation than "half bio / half mech autobot", but that is not up to me.
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The lack of new units and even more of a lack of new strategy that they create is very disappointing (entirely based on my observations from streams and casted games). I am really excited about the campaign though at least. Maybe some interesting reaper play to look forward to though???
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terrans being displeased with things? tell me something new plz
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I echo the thoughts of alot of people when I say, that even though I'm not in the beta, just from following the news, the new units havent really excited me, especially to the extent that the new toys that toss and zerg get seem pretty awesome, whereas the terran stuff doesn't seem nearly as sexy. With the removal of the Warhound, it just further hurts the situation. I hope blizzard has some surprises in store for us before release.
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I agree with this. I think that blizzard should remove auto cast, because that adds a lot of micro into the game. It Nerfs the warhound and the swarmhost (the 2 most OP units). It doesn't really nerf the carier, because a lot of ppl didn't even know about in anyway. Then, it makes u need to think how you cast it. You can then put the warhound back in. I though the idea was great, because tank contains are OP.
And they need to make HSM only 100 energy, and buff BC anti ground. I think it is OK for a T4 unit that costs a lot, and takes a lot of suply to do damage.
Its also stupid, That after IEM Collonge, Blizzard said it solved the whole queen buff OP-ness think. Te only reason that terran has won is because of MVP, taeja, and MKP won at the beginning of the year. These guys are so good, you cant use them as evidence to Balance. Is there a list if all the championships won by Terrans in 2012, without those 3. Sorry, had to let this out somewere.
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Are you guys so whipped by Blizzard that the removal of the WARHOUND becomes a bad thing?
Goddamit guys
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I'm not displeased one bit.
am I a zerg player? yes.
I've been playing terran offline beta for awhile now so I know what I like, and I don't think the race is all that bad. I mean for gods sake, I never heard a terran complain "well my race is boring!" or "my race fucking sucks!" in WoL, no it was more like "zerg/protoss OP" never any "terran UP!" shit that we keep hearing about since the most OP unit in the game was removed (warhound). I mean really, your expansion was WoL, so you can't expect to get a completely different race.
Only thing I would like to see, is a change to the raven, less of an "ok I have spells that do DPS" and more "ok I have spells that support my army", also the viking ground mode should represent the gap in mech and mech upgrades effect ground mode and air upgrades effect air mode. Also you should be able to make grounded vikings from a factory but need a starport to transform them or build them already in flight mode from a starport.
as simple as that really
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I would be uber happy if...
+Buff tank damage to WoL beta numbers (we're not playing on stepps anymore, tanks are allowed to do damage) +Increase high ground advantage to -1 range for units below high ground (mech isn't just units out of factory, its more positional play, the high ground mechanic in WoL is very contrary to holding positions)
icing on cake +remake viking assault mode, along with some comparable nerf in the switching much much longer transform time permanent transform archon-like transform (ie uses 2 vikings) requires resources to transform or combination of any would be really cool to see.
The ability for reactored vikings will pose balance hurdles, but I believe it could still be done
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i am glad i play random nowadays. It lets me enjoy the game whatever changes, because i know if i was a terran player i would be fucking pissed.
every patch somehow nerfing terran further and further is bad enough, but then finally terran get two buffs that on paper everyone ive seen thinks is a good idea...then blizzard turn round and say it was a bug, and people wonder why terran is severely under-represented on ladder?
oh, also i think viking ground mode should be buffed (un-nerfed)
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On September 25 2012 08:13 pmp10 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2012 08:07 mikedebo wrote: Let's see what happens at the end of the Beta. If things end in a similar state to how they are now, I can't even imagine the clusterfuck that will follow for the 2-3 mo afterwards.
What clusterfuck would that be and where would it come from? People don't seem terribly upset with the current state of beta.
I don't hate blizz or anything but as a terran player I have absolutely no enthusiasm for the beta(and I think most terrans feel the same way)
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Dustin said before that terran was overdesigned for WoL. So naturally, terrans would get lesser stuff for HotS. Why are terran players insisting on blizzard to not fix this problem now that they finally have a chance to fix it.
Also, I don't understand the mentality of some people. The purpose of balance changes is to improve the overall balance of the game. Just because a race is nerfed before, it doesn't mean they shouldn't be considered for subsequent nerfs. If anything, terran players should be happy they had over a year to play using supposedly OP units.
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at first i was displeased but then i found out that widow mine is way to effective its has fast built time fast speed and insanely good dmg output
the games i made so far with combination of mines resulted that i traded very good against opponents
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But terran is complete already. It just needs to adjust to the changes in the expansions, and not add new cool units.
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I'm just ticked at the fact that Blizzard isn't really implementing anything new to the game, except for Zerg. They have the opportunity to make huge changes, but their scared about about balance, when the concentration should be on design.
HOTs looks like a DLC that should be sold for $20.
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- SC2 is the only thing I've been passionate about during the last 10 years of my life. The last 2 years of SC2 have been absolutely the best time I've ever spent on any form of entertainment ever. - Have spent hundreds of hours reading, learning and thinking about SC2. - Have played thousands of SC2 games. - Have spend hundreds of dollars on SC2 events. - I bought a sick computer and monitor just so I could have the best SC2 experience (performance) possible. - I've spend dozens of hours in store and online researching keyboards so I could find the best one. I recently bought a $400 dollar keyboard just for SC2 and I make an average amount of money. - I play Terran. - I have not tried the HOTS beta yet, my experience is limited to following this forum and watch HOTS streams. - I will not make any final judgments about HOTS until I play the final release.
Frozen Throne and Brood War improved their vanilla predecessors so hugely I can't even think of a word that describes their respective magnitudes of improvement properly.
As passionate as I am about SC2 and after investing so much time, effort and money into it, it makes me feel like absolute shit to say but I am not excited about HOTS anymore. At Blizzcon 2011, Blizzard introduced A LOT of huge and exciting changes for the game, all of which gave me the feeling inside that HOTS would introduce improvements in the same epic proportions as BW and FT did. 75% of the changes from Blizzcon have since been removed and what is left is so underwhelming that I haven't watched a HOTS stream in a week.
I've never played or watched any MOBA style game in my life (DOTA, League of Legends, Heroes of Newerth) but my passion for HOTS turned off like a light switch the moment I saw how Valve is developing DOTA2. I was absolutely blown away by Husky's DOTA2/SC2 UI comparison video (http://youtu.be/7hpbSKGbzKg), the number of stats available in DOTA 2 is MINDBLOWING compared to SC2 and the way DOTA2 promotes e-sports is beyond impressive.
There are 2 things that have to happen to make me pumped about HOTS:
1) Warcraft 3 in space magnitude overhaul: Blizzard scraps all/most new units and introduces new ones. They add stats, stats and more stats and provide all the features they have promised/that are standard in other games.
2) Release date comes near: Unlike before, I have not been excited everyday of my life for HOTS in its anticipation but I know that even if not much changes, I will begin to be excited for it as the release draws near.
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As a Protoss player I am just as displeased as the lot of you, None of our matchups really changed that much and the only new this that is viable is Mothership core, everything else is just Expensive Stargate stuff that is boring. We really aren't even changing still going to be Deathball With Colossus.
Maybe every couple of PvZs we will get an oracle.
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If I want to play seriously I find that not a single matchup has changed for me. TvP i can see mines having early-game potential, and mines can serve as anti-harass (kills medivac in 1 hit for example) but largley I find that HotS is almost indistinguishable from WoL.
This definitely isn't a Brood War or a Frozen Throne =/
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I am not looking forward to HotS at all.
Bliz first says that they will fix mech, and then all the changes turn out to be "bugs."
Toss also gets practically nothing, Z gets all the fun, new, viable units.
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Terran is not any more complete than the other races. If they were, they would win everything, but they don't. Clearly they are not complete. or other races are also complete.
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There's a difference between completion design-wise and someone at Blizzard manifesting their pathological hatred with constant sledgehammer patches.
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On September 26 2012 12:53 Coffee Zombie wrote: There's a difference between completion design-wise and someone at Blizzard manifesting their pathological hatred with constant sledgehammer patches.
Hatred? Pretty sure that Terran is their favorite race, dude.
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What a friggin joke! Hm, I really was hoping they would address late game issues in TvP and TvZ...
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On September 25 2012 11:15 Luppy1 wrote: Dustin said before that terran was overdesigned for WoL. So naturally, terrans would get lesser stuff for HotS. Why are terran players insisting on blizzard to not fix this problem now that they finally have a chance to fix it.
Also, I don't understand the mentality of some people. The purpose of balance changes is to improve the overall balance of the game. Just because a race is nerfed before, it doesn't mean they shouldn't be considered for subsequent nerfs. If anything, terran players should be happy they had over a year to play using supposedly OP units.
How about nerfing a race every single time there is a major patch change? Are you somehow suggesting that terran units are OP?
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On September 26 2012 11:26 SolidMoose wrote: Terran is not any more complete than the other races. If they were, they would win everything, but they don't. Clearly they are not complete. or other races are also complete. Complete doesn't mean the strongest... Being forced to rush to Brood Lords and Infestors every game doesn't make my race complete, it makes it bad designed, even if it is arguably stronger army composition than any other.
Being complete is reference to the Terran race where you have a lot of units that are good for something, at different occasions and that you are building most of them(except for the Reaper, lol).
Zerg like race isn't complete, Zerg has to go for an all-in to be able to finish the game before the Hive tech, it is big risk, and that is why you see most of Pro Zerg players just rushing straight to Hive tech. Mutas are solid, but are good in direct engagements only if you mass them, and even then they don't have good dps, and if you are making masses of them you are delaying your Hive a lot. Hydras are terrible, Nydus is underused for god-know-what reason, and Infestors are overpowered for their cost. They are answer to everything, Drop play, Harassment, Air, masses of small units, large units, they are the greatest Zerg units right now, and they are just too good not to have them. And that itself is bad design, why would I go for Mutas or Hydras or Nydus at all, when I can go for Infestors that will also be very useful later, and camp with Spines until I get Ultras/Brood Lords.
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Honestly, I think the only problem with Terran is that they have only one tech path to go in TvP. It would be good if they somehow made Mech equally as viable as Bio, but the Warhound simply made bio obsolete.
I think Mech just needs a hint of more power, not through brute force like the warhound, but just a hidden spice of utility. Perhaps something equivalent to the power of that of the Overseer.
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Russian Federation216 Posts
i like these people commenting "im not a terran and im not feeling that terrans have +1.5 units in hots is bad" ofc, if you're not terran and feel displeased for terrans - you're random
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Vatican City State431 Posts
This is the lamest expansion pack ever. Look at brood war then look at this joke...Is this the same team that designed Diablo 3 or WTF? Even World of Warcraft went to drain with the Kung Fu Panda expansion...Something is seriously wrong at Blizzard. 2 food for 160 damage? Yuck. Blizzard is trolling people who are playing Terran. :r
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Terran had by far the most tools to play around with in WoL. Nearly every unit composition, mix of random units, has had a farce, somewhere in the overarching meta-game. And Zerg has had, by far the least. While Terran had Ghost/Raven and Protoss had Sentry/High Templar/Mothership, Zerg only had the Infestor, that i would classify as a "real" Spellcaster. Spellcasters are just so crucial for spicing the game up and it gives, just so many tools to the players. Because of this Zerg is a really underwhelming race and to combat this, they have a stronger macro mechanic and stronger Spellcaster. As a result, Terran and Protoss can do more strategies that pulls the carpet away under the Zerg player, but if not, Zerg will be stronger, making the game balanced, from a far away perspective, but really imbalanced, if you go down, into every little aspect of the game.
So to get real balanced game, where every aspect is balanced, Zerg has now gotten what they needed since the start, more well designed unit synergy. However if Protoss and Terrans new stuff cannot lessen the effect of the Zergs macro mechanics or the strength of the Infestor, i feel that Zerg will just be too strong. So to kind of get back on topic, Zerg needs a whole new bunch of stuff, while the other races don´t necessarily.
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I somehow agree with the comment above: I play Terran since WoL beta mostly because i've always had the feeling that it's the most versatile gameplay, the more choices in units. (The thing is i'm a gold/plat player, so i'm not stuck into the "best unit composition for each matchup". At my level, each unit can have its utility.) So i'm not suprised if we only get 2 new units. (I dont say 1.5, because nobody would say 1.5 if the BH was called Armored Firebat and was created separately from the Hellion since the beginning of beta. People are very narrow-minded, stuck with names, categories etc...)
The gameplay does change with those 2 units, and it obviously changes because of the new Z and P units we play against.
I'm not against a 3rd new unit ofc, but it's not essential. There's no reason to feel cheated... (I would have felt cheated if i was playing Z during WoL beta for instance because there was like 0 spellcaster...)
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On September 26 2012 18:26 p14c wrote: This is the lamest expansion pack ever. Look at brood war then look at this joke...Is this the same team that designed Diablo 3 or WTF? Even World of Warcraft went to drain with the Kung Fu Panda expansion...Something is seriously wrong at Blizzard. 2 food for 160 damage? Yuck. Blizzard is trolling people who are playing Terran. :r
Technically, that's about 4 Banelings (2 supply) 's damage vs light.
As much as I agree that 1,5 new units isn't much, that's not a very good point :D
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Russian Federation216 Posts
On September 26 2012 18:39 ejozl wrote: Nearly every unit composition, mix of random units, has had a farce, somewhere in the overarching meta-game. still no solid t3 unit like broodlord/ultralisk/colossi/archon
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On September 26 2012 19:35 Fen1kz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2012 18:39 ejozl wrote: Nearly every unit composition, mix of random units, has had a farce, somewhere in the overarching meta-game. still no solid t3 unit like broodlord/ultralisk/colossi/archon Ultralisks are solid? Battle Cruisers are a lot more solid than Ultralisks, trust me. People shouldn't mass them, but build them as support units. In the HOTS, Yamato Cannon costs 100 energy, and does 300 damage. 3 Battle Cruisers, which isn't a lot of supply, mean 6 Brood Lords are dead in a few seconds. And I think it is a great buff, even without the straight damage buff for Battle Cruisers.
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Can someone explain to me why mech ground an air ups are seperate? I've noticed that Terran is the only race with 3 sets of upgrades? It makes transitions during play terrible.
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So I have been playing the beta for a bit and would like to make some suggestions. Terrans need to get more than they have currently, while the mines are neat and fun, they don't really change any match ups. I would say battle hellions are interesting.... However in order for HOTS to not just be the same builds and exact same meta game, I would say the RAVEN needs to be fixed!!!! My take on this is terrans have a late game weakness, and the raven would fix that as well mix up the meta game. For instance, make the HSM 100 energy please. It causes zerg and toss to finally micro and have a unit that requires a lot of casting options and would totally make for entertaining games. Nerfing the dmg of hsm maybe, but not much if any. Also maybe replace turrets with another spell, but the cast range on the raven spells is an issue as well, for their costs they should not be suicide units. Also Defensive matrix to replace point defense drones, might be worth talking about |Or irradiate would be awesome as well, it could be nano virus, like a swarm of nano bots that attack near by units of the affected unit.
I would say remove the 250mm cannnon on thors!!!!! No one uses this spell ever, and it only gives mana to a unit that toss feedback, ruining mech totally. I would say give thors defensive matrix or some other spell that would make them viable in mech vP. Or an AOE spell that maybe slows units and dmgs them over time, like a napalm cannon or something. This is of course only if they have a spell at all, no spell is better than 250mm cannon at this point.
But so far, everyone is doing the same builds and maybe you will see a mine here or there. TVP is pretty much identical to WOL. I think all Terrans would agree with me, check the Team liquid forums, and they all agree, there is not much change in HOTS for them.
Swarm hosts are very difficult to deal with, I might suggest changing the locusts to broodlings, as it would make it possible to at least deal with them. Becuase once they are out, with even a little support they are an unbreakable line as it stands now. Which is slightly imbalanced, and would make for a predictable transition that might bore viewers of tourneys.
Protoss, no one seems to be using the air units, maybe the oracle, but not much. And MU's seem very similar as WOL. I would say a new ground unit with a new ability would be a great addition. I could see PVZ using the tempest, however I think a ground unit that can have an ability like; creates a void units can hide in temporarily, so the unit casts it, and units go into a hidden vortex, unless you have detection, and can pop out for an attack. And this unit can maybe can thorw down a slowing trail, so it drains it mana but behind it a trail is left behind that if units walk into it are slowed. This would shake up PV everything.
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i say that blizz needs to scrap HOTS all together and rework the game from scratch. i mean nothing new for terran expect a redundant spider mines, a transforming flame buggy, then toss get's 2.5 starport units to try to get more toss to play skytoss, then zerg of all the fucking races gets another spellcaster(like infestor was op enough) and a siege unit. i mean i can understand that HOTS is the zerg expansion but what the hell giving zergs more powerful units and abilites while the current tvp/tvz metagame stays the same for terran while zergs and toss gets new ways of killing us. I mean i heard of bad ideas but i think these guys suffer from a illness called lazy. I mean any one of us can do better than these clowns on how to make the game better and more fun than deathballs and a-moving armies. Last time i checked starcraft was about strategy not deathball armies
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On September 27 2012 00:59 UpATree wrote: Can someone explain to me why mech ground an air ups are seperate? I've noticed that Terran is the only race with 3 sets of upgrades? It makes transitions during play terrible. Zerg have to choose between ranged ground, melee ground and air attack upgrades, and ground/air armor. (Total of 5) Protoss have to choose between ground/air attack, ground/air armor, and shields. (Total of 5) Terran have to choose between infantry/mech/air attack/armor (total of 6). It's not all that different.
Terran do find it harder to transition, but that's also due to how their production facilities work (Zerg have it the easiest ofc, and toss require fewer high tech production structures than an equivalent Terran). It's built into how the races work. You might as well be asking "Why can Terran buildings fly?". The answer is the same - racial diversity.
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On September 26 2012 19:35 Fen1kz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2012 18:39 ejozl wrote: Nearly every unit composition, mix of random units, has had a farce, somewhere in the overarching meta-game. still no solid t3 unit like broodlord/ultralisk/colossi/archon
T isnt supposed to have a solid T3 unit, we are supposed to make up for that with the Siege Tank, but unfortunately, we all know how powerful the tank is in WoL..
IMO the bigger problem with T3 is the rate at which Z and P can rebuild, that on top of the weak Siege Tank is why there late game problems.
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We are concerned that we do something to offer new strategies to all 3 races. I tend to agree that Zerg seem to have new units that seem to be working well. I don't agree that Oracle, Mothership Core, Tempest, Widow Mine and Battle Hellion are doomed. I think that they can (with some play testing and some tuning and balance) find a home that makes them core to a variety of matchups.
I have had and seen both good experiences and bad experiences with Terran and Protoss units. I don't think we are close to done, but we are going to keep testing to see what we can do to buff and tune the Protoss and Terrans into a happier place than they are today.
More patches are on the way!=)
Thanks for the thread on this subject. It's something we talk about daily so your feedback here is appreciated.
-Dustin Browder
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guys comeon... the game hasn't even been released yet... the key work of this is beta... the entire point of the beta is to adjust and get the balance right.... new strategies have to be devoloped... you have to think differently from wol because its not the same game... comeon now
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On September 28 2012 08:09 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +We are concerned that we do something to offer new strategies to all 3 races. I tend to agree that Zerg seem to have new units that seem to be working well. I don't agree that Oracle, Mothership Core, Tempest, Widow Mine and Battle Hellion are doomed. I think that they can (with some play testing and some tuning and balance) find a home that makes them core to a variety of matchups.
I have had and seen both good experiences and bad experiences with Terran and Protoss units. I don't think we are close to done, but we are going to keep testing to see what we can do to buff and tune the Protoss and Terrans into a happier place than they are today.
More patches are on the way!=)
Thanks for the thread on this subject. It's something we talk about daily so your feedback here is appreciated. -Dustin Browder Very interesting. So DB is still not giving up on the design of battle-hellion and meching vs. protoss in general. Blizzard already designed 2 units to make it work and if it fails terran will get little of worth with this expansion. Especially since they scrapped one unit already.
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Buffing units is ok, giving t a unit to replace the war hound is great
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On October 03 2012 15:03 TheLunatic wrote: Buffing units is ok, giving t a unit to replace the war hound is great DB just posted that blizzard isn't hiding any units. It's safe to say that if warhound replacement is coming it will not happen soon.
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Disappointed with HOTS?
Rather fed up with Blizzard as a whole. HOTS is a marketing gag, nothing else. They want cash, and they don't care if customer's are not exactly satisfied (i.e Diablo 3 AH).
They know that we gonna buy it, because the amount of players on WoL battle.net will decrease...
I think WoL has some fundamental problems, like T lategame options versus P & Z...
P is kind of an overall a broken race . OP in lower leagues but pretty harmless in GM and pro tourneys. Take the top 20 on EU GM...how many toss can u count??? 3 at this moment!
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On October 04 2012 21:12 lukasdesign wrote: Disappointed with HOTS?
Rather fed up with Blizzard as a whole. HOTS is a marketing gag, nothing else. They want cash, and they don't care if customer's are not exactly satisfied (i.e Diablo 3 AH).
They know that we gonna buy it, because the amount of players on WoL battle.net will decrease...
I think WoL has some fundamental problems, like T lategame options versus P & Z...
P is kind of an overall a broken race . OP in lower leagues but pretty harmless in GM and pro tourneys. Take the top 20 on EU GM...how many toss can u count??? 3 at this moment!
I dunno man... looks pretty damn strong at the highest level...
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On October 04 2012 21:17 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2012 21:12 lukasdesign wrote: Disappointed with HOTS?
Rather fed up with Blizzard as a whole. HOTS is a marketing gag, nothing else. They want cash, and they don't care if customer's are not exactly satisfied (i.e Diablo 3 AH).
They know that we gonna buy it, because the amount of players on WoL battle.net will decrease...
I think WoL has some fundamental problems, like T lategame options versus P & Z...
P is kind of an overall a broken race . OP in lower leagues but pretty harmless in GM and pro tourneys. Take the top 20 on EU GM...how many toss can u count??? 3 at this moment!
I dunno man... looks pretty damn strong at the highest level...
Yeah aside from the few top Korean Terrans I don't see many of them doing well in tournaments, it's all about P and Z nowadays and we all know how boring most of those MU's (maybe except of ZvZ lately) are... The thing with top tier Protosses IMO is that most of them don't do a very good job at multitasking and harassing overall because they aren't really forced to, it's similar with Zerg... You can turtle and build a strong economy/infastructure while as Terran if you do likewise your army still will be much weaker (not only tech-wise, but also in size), if you don't pressure your opponent.
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Dammit give terran a unit to replace warhound already holy crap
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I'm pretty displeased at this moment. Battle Hellion looks like a good, solid addition but I don't like the strange tech requirements for it. Reaper changes seem *okay*. I don't like the Widow Mine in it's current form (would be cool if it was a mine-placer as someone suggested). If it stays this way then the Terran changes are quite underwhelming but I have confidence in Blizzard. I just hope they haven't committed to an internal release date yet and still have time to mess about.
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On October 05 2012 01:19 willoc wrote: I'm pretty displeased at this moment. Battle Hellion looks like a good, solid addition but I don't like the strange tech requirements for it. Reaper changes seem *okay*. I don't like the Widow Mine in it's current form (would be cool if it was a mine-placer as someone suggested). If it stays this way then the Terran changes are quite underwhelming but I have confidence in Blizzard. I just hope they haven't committed to an internal release date yet and still have time to mess about. Judging by DB's comments, this is just the start, we are nowhere near the final product.
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I probably won't buy HoTS unless it changes dramatically over the next couple of months.
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Like you said, I think that the main thing that's bad for terran so far is because they don't have enough supply efficient vs cost efficient units.
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not planning on buying unless serious changes to terran gameplay are made... i dont mind playing wol for free against less amount of players if the game play for terran is identical to HOTS
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