I have been playing around with the Viper, and I noticed you can use the Abduct ability on the Protoss Mothership, even though I am a Zerg player and I think that this is awesome that you can abduct a Mothership, but All it takes is a few abducts to throw the mothership into your army, and then neural parasite it, then you have an easy huge advantage over the protoss army, being able to easily vortex his army and keep your units cloaked,I have already done it several times.
I don't know but to me this just seems way to strong, what do you guys think? I just think that the Abduct ability maybe shouldn't work on massive units, but then you wouldn't be able to abduct colossi, so maybe Blizzard should change it so you just cannot abduct the mothership?
I would agree with this as the only way I am currently able to beat a max zerg army is by using a mothership. Not only that but I once had a low health MsC and when it upgrades it keeps the low health... so it went down so fast... Maybe this wouldn't be such an issue if the Mothership wasn't so critical to end game PvZ.
Abduct MUST work on massive units, otherwise it's almost useless. You need to be able to abduct colossi and thors (and I'm a protoss player).
We need to not have to rely on the Mothership for lategame PvZ, that's all. They're trying to fix that with tempest, hopefully they'll succeed. I sure hope I do not have to rely on a money vortex anymore...
The problem here, in my opinion, is not the viper it is the reliance in PvZ on the vortex, not in a balance way but in a game design way. I don't want to see a million more PvZs end with either vortex landing or not landing. Too much relies on a single spell.
Hopefully some P pro will figure out how to combat late game zerg without the mothership and that can become the metagame standard.
On October 06 2012 05:03 Promethelax wrote: Hopefully some P pro will figure out how to combat late game zerg without the mothership and that can become the metagame standard.
On October 06 2012 05:03 Promethelax wrote: Hopefully some P pro will figure out how to combat late game zerg without the mothership and that can become the metagame standard.
HotS Stargate, probably.
As it stands right now, the tempest is too slow to counter broodlords as they can be chased down by corrupters or mutas quite easy. Oracle isnt that effective vs zerg as they can afford to put spines in their mineral lines and voids are easily countered by fungal. Maybe if the tempest has some change, or perhaps if the carrier was somehow made better this might be the case. But as of right now, I don't think the Stargate is the answer.
On October 06 2012 05:27 gedatsu wrote: Use phase shield.
They will change the phase shield probably, or maybe even remove it, at least that is what Dustin Browder said.
On the other hand, I really think that Vortex should be about Control, and not about Archon Toilet. It could make units invulnerable to all damage for 5 seconds after the Vortex finished, but they are also frozen for those 5 seconds.
And on the other hand, I think that Mothership shouldn't be able to get Neural'd or Abducted.
Fungal is enough to stop an army, so why do Broodlings also prevent movement of units? It's pretty crazy how units like the Archon and maybe even the Stalker get caught up on little Broodlings they could step over. I mean, the Archon floats, and it get's stuck on a few Broodlings that it could fly right over?
The problem with Broodlord/Infestor is that you cannot move towards it. Eliminate Broodlings locking down certain units, and I don't think the Vortex will be absolutely necessary.
Archons are etheral, and maybe for that matter should not even have unit collision with any unit.
I hope I didn't overlook something important about my point but I don't really have time to sit here and contemplate every unit vs the Broodlord in terms of balance.
On October 06 2012 05:55 Siracuz wrote: What about this:
Fungal is enough to stop an army, so why do Broodlings also prevent movement of units? It's pretty crazy how units like the Archon and maybe even the Stalker get caught up on little Broodlings they could step over. I mean, the Archon floats, and it get's stuck on a few Broodlings that it could fly right over?
The problem with Broodlord/Infestor is that you cannot move towards it. Eliminate Broodlings locking down certain units, and I don't think the Vortex will be absolutely necessary.
Archons are etheral, and maybe for that matter should not even have unit collision with any unit.
I hope I didn't overlook something important about my point but I don't really have time to sit here and contemplate every unit vs the Broodlord in terms of balance.
Having no collision with any unit? Imagine now archon colossi with some void ray army, it'll be stacked into 1 single point. That's not a solution.
Back on topic, I think mothership should also some kind of immunity against this maybe like ultralisk have immunity to slow. Mothership could have immunity to abduct. If not we can always use hts to feedback those vipers.
On October 06 2012 05:55 Siracuz wrote: What about this:
Fungal is enough to stop an army, so why do Broodlings also prevent movement of units? It's pretty crazy how units like the Archon and maybe even the Stalker get caught up on little Broodlings they could step over. I mean, the Archon floats, and it get's stuck on a few Broodlings that it could fly right over?
The problem with Broodlord/Infestor is that you cannot move towards it. Eliminate Broodlings locking down certain units, and I don't think the Vortex will be absolutely necessary.
Archons are etheral, and maybe for that matter should not even have unit collision with any unit.
I hope I didn't overlook something important about my point but I don't really have time to sit here and contemplate every unit vs the Broodlord in terms of balance.
Having no collision with any unit? Imagine now archon colossi with some void ray army, it'll be stacked into 1 single point. That's not a solution.
Back on topic, I think mothership should also some kind of immunity against this maybe like ultralisk have immunity to slow. Mothership could have immunity to abduct. If not we can always use hts to feedback those vipers.
Don't be so quick to blow the OP whistle, esp about the biggest "maybe" I wrote.
a) Zerg deals with Colossi just fine right now, and they don't stack b) 1 Infestor will kill all of those Voids stacked up on one point c) I didn't specify but I didn't mean that Archons wouldn't collide with themselves d) That army which wouldn't be effective in the first place would never see the light of day in a match due to build times and gas intensity.
I'm going to just go ahead and post on Blizzard forums, as I think it may be a good fix, but here's the jist:
1-Archons don't collide with Broodlings and Zerglings.
2-Debatable but Fungal does not lock them down. They are made of gasses and Massive. Not colliding with Broodlings alone may not be enough, but this might be too much in certain situations. Example: if they're chain fungaled, the fix does nothing, but if Zerg doesn't have something to deal with them quick like Roaches or enough Broodlord dps, it becomes too much.
3-Neural Parasite would be the go to ability to deal with Archons (which works great mid-game but rarely seen); right now all 3 Infestor abilities are very good against them. They can't kill Infested Terran if they can't move.
With these changes tested, Mothership Vortex can be adjusted or downright removed for all I care. It's the most dependent ability in the matchup and something needs to be done with it.
the only thing im worried about is abduct vs motherships and mothership cores since being a hero unit, it would cripple the protoss deathball too much. Wait... isn't that a good thing?
On October 08 2012 14:01 MasterCynical wrote: the only thing im worried about is abduct vs motherships and mothership cores since being a hero unit, it would cripple the protoss deathball too much. Wait... isn't that a good thing?
If you're a Zerg player and you want to win 100% of your games, of course it is!
Fact is Abduct will kill Mech late game by tearing apart Siege Tank positions and do the same to Protoss by pulling in the Mothership. Abduct + Neural is better than having a Replicant who can Replicate massive units.
It has to go, late game Zerg deathballs are difficult enough to stop, but doing it with Bio and Gateway units alone is too much to ask.
Not to mention it waters down the game. If Abduct is useful then people simply won't build units that are worth Abducting, so we'll see Mass Blink Stalker armies or Marine/Marauder balls.
On October 08 2012 14:01 MasterCynical wrote: the only thing im worried about is abduct vs motherships and mothership cores since being a hero unit, it would cripple the protoss deathball too much. Wait... isn't that a good thing?
If you're a Zerg player and you want to win 100% of your games, of course it is!
Fact is Abduct will kill Mech late game by tearing apart Siege Tank positions and do the same to Protoss by pulling in the Mothership. Abduct + Neural is better than having a Replicant who can Replicate massive units.
It has to go, late game Zerg deathballs are difficult enough to stop, but doing it with Bio and Gateway units alone is too much to ask.
I'm going to stop you right there.
Fix the infestor before touching with the viper.. which is balanced.
This is how you fix the infestor.
Make fungul a 65% slowing spell
Increase NP range to 8
Ok?
Now if zergs AA is weaker or they have deathball problems.....
YOU BUFF the hydra and ultralisk for compensation.
For the hydralisk Bring it back to WOL beta stats( look up the hydralisks patch history, those 2 nerfs it got need to be un-nerfed)
For the ultralisk Increase the damage to 20(+20 vs armored) and increase the splash damage to 50%(Because the ultralisk has alot of problems, doing these changes would help it greatly)
On October 08 2012 14:01 MasterCynical wrote: the only thing im worried about is abduct vs motherships and mothership cores since being a hero unit, it would cripple the protoss deathball too much. Wait... isn't that a good thing?
If you're a Zerg player and you want to win 100% of your games, of course it is!
Fact is Abduct will kill Mech late game by tearing apart Siege Tank positions and do the same to Protoss by pulling in the Mothership. Abduct + Neural is better than having a Replicant who can Replicate massive units.
It has to go, late game Zerg deathballs are difficult enough to stop, but doing it with Bio and Gateway units alone is too much to ask.
I'm going to stop you right there.
Fix the infestor before touching with the viper.. which is balanced.
This is how you fix the infestor.
Make fungul a 65% slowing spell
Increase NP range to 8
Ok?
Now if zergs AA is weaker or they have deathball problems.....
YOU BUFF the hydra and ultralisk for compensation.
For the hydralisk Bring it back to WOL beta stats( look up the hydralisks patch history, those 2 nerfs it got need to be un-nerfed)
For the ultralisk Increase the damage to 20(+20 vs armored) and increase the splash damage to 50%(Because the ultralisk has alot of problems, doing these changes would help it greatly)
If you increase NP range and leave Abduct in the game it doesn't change the fact that Terran and Protoss can't build any unit worth Abducting and NPing. No Thors, Colossus, Immortals, Siege Tanks, Motherships, Battle Cruisers, ect... because if they did build them they would just add to the Swarm. And if Fungal doesn't root units, then Blink Stalkers will walk all over Zerg.
There is going to be a huge increase in pre-Hive all-ins if Abduct isn't removed in PvZ.
On October 08 2012 14:01 MasterCynical wrote: the only thing im worried about is abduct vs motherships and mothership cores since being a hero unit, it would cripple the protoss deathball too much. Wait... isn't that a good thing?
If you're a Zerg player and you want to win 100% of your games, of course it is!
Fact is Abduct will kill Mech late game by tearing apart Siege Tank positions and do the same to Protoss by pulling in the Mothership. Abduct + Neural is better than having a Replicant who can Replicate massive units.
It has to go, late game Zerg deathballs are difficult enough to stop, but doing it with Bio and Gateway units alone is too much to ask.
I'm going to stop you right there.
Fix the infestor before touching with the viper.. which is balanced.
This is how you fix the infestor.
Make fungul a 65% slowing spell
Increase NP range to 8
Ok?
Now if zergs AA is weaker or they have deathball problems.....
YOU BUFF the hydra and ultralisk for compensation.
For the hydralisk Bring it back to WOL beta stats( look up the hydralisks patch history, those 2 nerfs it got need to be un-nerfed)
For the ultralisk Increase the damage to 20(+20 vs armored) and increase the splash damage to 50%(Because the ultralisk has alot of problems, doing these changes would help it greatly)
If you increase NP range and leave Abduct in the game it doesn't change the fact that Terran and Protoss can't build any unit worth Abducting and NPing. No Thors, Colossus, Immortals, Siege Tanks, Motherships, Battle Cruisers, ect... because if they did build them they would just add to the Swarm. And if Fungal doesn't root units, then Blink Stalkers will walk all over Zerg.
There is going to be a huge increase in pre-Hive all-ins if Abduct isn't removed in PvZ.
Think about this for a second, just think.
NP went from 7 to 9 and now back to 7
8 is the perfect middle range, and is balanced.
Also You can still build those units, you act like THERES NO ARMIES(or other units) IN BETWEEN.
And about the blink stalkers.......... Remember that patch? well blink stalkers would still get rooted by fungul.
And lol in HOTS, theres actaully less early all ins going on.
So look PVZ and TVZ with abduct and NP is fine.
Both viable options, and both that are shut down by high templars... and ghosts.
The main problem in PVZ is the mother ship.
it should be removed, and the oracle should have the cloaking field.
I already told How to fix zerg, and now I just explain how to make the oracle better and remove the stupid mothership gimmic.
On October 08 2012 14:01 MasterCynical wrote: the only thing im worried about is abduct vs motherships and mothership cores since being a hero unit, it would cripple the protoss deathball too much. Wait... isn't that a good thing?
If you're a Zerg player and you want to win 100% of your games, of course it is!
Fact is Abduct will kill Mech late game by tearing apart Siege Tank positions and do the same to Protoss by pulling in the Mothership. Abduct + Neural is better than having a Replicant who can Replicate massive units.
It has to go, late game Zerg deathballs are difficult enough to stop, but doing it with Bio and Gateway units alone is too much to ask.
I'm going to stop you right there.
Fix the infestor before touching with the viper.. which is balanced.
This is how you fix the infestor.
Make fungul a 65% slowing spell
Increase NP range to 8
Ok?
Now if zergs AA is weaker or they have deathball problems.....
YOU BUFF the hydra and ultralisk for compensation.
For the hydralisk Bring it back to WOL beta stats( look up the hydralisks patch history, those 2 nerfs it got need to be un-nerfed)
For the ultralisk Increase the damage to 20(+20 vs armored) and increase the splash damage to 50%(Because the ultralisk has alot of problems, doing these changes would help it greatly)
If you increase NP range and leave Abduct in the game it doesn't change the fact that Terran and Protoss can't build any unit worth Abducting and NPing. No Thors, Colossus, Immortals, Siege Tanks, Motherships, Battle Cruisers, ect... because if they did build them they would just add to the Swarm. And if Fungal doesn't root units, then Blink Stalkers will walk all over Zerg.
There is going to be a huge increase in pre-Hive all-ins if Abduct isn't removed in PvZ.
Think about this for a second, just think.
NP went from 7 to 9 and now back to 7
8 is the perfect middle range, and is balanced.
Also You can still build those units, you act like THERES NO ARMIES(or other units) IN BETWEEN.
And about the blink stalkers.......... Remember that patch? well blink stalkers would still get rooted by fungul.
And lol in HOTS, theres actaully less early all ins going on.
So look PVZ with abduct and NP is fine.
Both viable options, and both that are shut down by high templars...
The main problem in PVZ is the mother ship.
it should be removed, and the oracle should have the cloaking field.
I already told How to fix zerg, and now I just explain how to make the oracle better and remove the stupid mothership gimmic.
You don't need to put your posts in the form of a poem with giant spacing. Nor do you need to be condescending telling me to think. I also didn't say early all-ins, I'm talking about three base PvZ timings that hit before Hive, there are plenty of them.
So why don't you stay on topic regarding Abduct rather than talking about all your wonderful balance changes that "fix" the game.
On October 08 2012 14:01 MasterCynical wrote: the only thing im worried about is abduct vs motherships and mothership cores since being a hero unit, it would cripple the protoss deathball too much. Wait... isn't that a good thing?
If you're a Zerg player and you want to win 100% of your games, of course it is!
Fact is Abduct will kill Mech late game by tearing apart Siege Tank positions and do the same to Protoss by pulling in the Mothership. Abduct + Neural is better than having a Replicant who can Replicate massive units.
It has to go, late game Zerg deathballs are difficult enough to stop, but doing it with Bio and Gateway units alone is too much to ask.
I'm going to stop you right there.
Fix the infestor before touching with the viper.. which is balanced.
This is how you fix the infestor.
Make fungul a 65% slowing spell
Increase NP range to 8
Ok?
Now if zergs AA is weaker or they have deathball problems.....
YOU BUFF the hydra and ultralisk for compensation.
For the hydralisk Bring it back to WOL beta stats( look up the hydralisks patch history, those 2 nerfs it got need to be un-nerfed)
For the ultralisk Increase the damage to 20(+20 vs armored) and increase the splash damage to 50%(Because the ultralisk has alot of problems, doing these changes would help it greatly)
If you increase NP range and leave Abduct in the game it doesn't change the fact that Terran and Protoss can't build any unit worth Abducting and NPing. No Thors, Colossus, Immortals, Siege Tanks, Motherships, Battle Cruisers, ect... because if they did build them they would just add to the Swarm. And if Fungal doesn't root units, then Blink Stalkers will walk all over Zerg.
There is going to be a huge increase in pre-Hive all-ins if Abduct isn't removed in PvZ.
Think about this for a second, just think.
NP went from 7 to 9 and now back to 7
8 is the perfect middle range, and is balanced.
Also You can still build those units, you act like THERES NO ARMIES(or other units) IN BETWEEN.
And about the blink stalkers.......... Remember that patch? well blink stalkers would still get rooted by fungul.
And lol in HOTS, theres actaully less early all ins going on.
So look PVZ with abduct and NP is fine.
Both viable options, and both that are shut down by high templars...
The main problem in PVZ is the mother ship.
it should be removed, and the oracle should have the cloaking field.
I already told How to fix zerg, and now I just explain how to make the oracle better and remove the stupid mothership gimmic.
You don't need to put your posts in the form of a poem with giant spacing. Nor do you need to be condescending telling me to think. I also didn't say early all-ins, I'm talking about three base PvZ timings that hit before Hive, there are plenty of them.
So why don't you stay on topic regarding Abduct rather than talking about all your wonderful balance changes that "fix" the game.
I did, Abduct is fine.
Knee I'm getting the suspicion you don't even have the HOTS beta or play WOL much.
Correct me If I am wrong but How can you claim something is OP if you yourself have never physically seen both sides?
On October 08 2012 14:34 BronzeKnee wrote: If you increase NP range and leave Abduct in the game it doesn't change the fact that Terran and Protoss can't build any unit worth Abducting and NPing. No Thors, Colossus, Immortals, Siege Tanks, Motherships, Battle Cruisers, ect... because if they did build them they would just add to the Swarm. And if Fungal doesn't root units, then Blink Stalkers will walk all over Zerg.
There is going to be a huge increase in pre-Hive all-ins if Abduct isn't removed in PvZ.
Colossi and STs useless against Zerg? Not a chance, sorry.
And anyway, Abduct and NP have the same problem: Use them, and the caster will probably die. Vipers are so squishy that they will probably die no matter what you do with them.
On October 08 2012 14:01 MasterCynical wrote: the only thing im worried about is abduct vs motherships and mothership cores since being a hero unit, it would cripple the protoss deathball too much. Wait... isn't that a good thing?
If you're a Zerg player and you want to win 100% of your games, of course it is!
Fact is Abduct will kill Mech late game by tearing apart Siege Tank positions and do the same to Protoss by pulling in the Mothership. Abduct + Neural is better than having a Replicant who can Replicate massive units.
It has to go, late game Zerg deathballs are difficult enough to stop, but doing it with Bio and Gateway units alone is too much to ask.
Not to mention it waters down the game. If Abduct is useful then people simply won't build units that are worth Abducting, so we'll see Mass Blink Stalker armies or Marine/Marauder balls.
Time will prove me wrong or right, same for you guys. We'll see...
And I play plenty of Starcraft to know that late game with the Infestor/Brood deathball that Zerg can suicide a bunch of Vipers to get the get the Abduct they need for a NP on the Mothership, and then Protoss is completely ruined... unless the Tempest does something special...
In fact I can already see swarms of Vipers rushing a Mothership late game the Protoss player frantically trying to feedback them all, and the Zerg only needs to lane one Abduct then NP it to end the game... reminds me of the Blue Flame Hellions prior to the nerf in TvT. People overbuilt them because you only needed to lane a few money shots to instantly win the game.
On October 06 2012 05:55 Siracuz wrote: What about this:
Fungal is enough to stop an army, so why do Broodlings also prevent movement of units? It's pretty crazy how units like the Archon and maybe even the Stalker get caught up on little Broodlings they could step over. I mean, the Archon floats, and it get's stuck on a few Broodlings that it could fly right over?
The problem with Broodlord/Infestor is that you cannot move towards it. Eliminate Broodlings locking down certain units, and I don't think the Vortex will be absolutely necessary.
Archons are etheral, and maybe for that matter should not even have unit collision with any unit.
I hope I didn't overlook something important about my point but I don't really have time to sit here and contemplate every unit vs the Broodlord in terms of balance.
Having no collision with any unit? Imagine now archon colossi with some void ray army, it'll be stacked into 1 single point. That's not a solution.
Back on topic, I think mothership should also some kind of immunity against this maybe like ultralisk have immunity to slow. Mothership could have immunity to abduct. If not we can always use hts to feedback those vipers.
Could you imagine chain fungle on that why would u as a zerg not want that lol
On October 08 2012 15:10 BronzeKnee wrote: Time will prove me wrong or right, same for you guys. We'll see...
And I play plenty of Starcraft to know that late game with the Infestor/Brood deathball that Zerg can suicide a bunch of Vipers to get the get the Abduct they need for a NP on the Mothership, and then Protoss is completely ruined... unless the Tempest does something special...
The Tempest does do something special: Kill Brood Lords. The reason Abduct + NP seems like a big problem is because the Mothership is a necessity in WoL PvZ. Hopefully, it won't be as important to the matchup when HotS rolls out.
On October 08 2012 15:10 BronzeKnee wrote: Time will prove me wrong or right, same for you guys. We'll see...
And I play plenty of Starcraft to know that late game with the Infestor/Brood deathball that Zerg can suicide a bunch of Vipers to get the get the Abduct they need for a NP on the Mothership, and then Protoss is completely ruined... unless the Tempest does something special...
The Tempest does do something special: Kill Brood Lords. The reason Abduct + NP seems like a big problem is because the Mothership is a necessity in WoL PvZ. Hopefully, it won't be as important to the matchup when HotS rolls out.
Consider this: A Viking does 14 DPS at 9 range vs Broods and costs 150/75 and 2 food. The Tempest does 15.5 DPS at 15 range vs Broods and costs 300/300 and 6 food. And of course Vikings can be built a lot faster.
Vikings are relatively cheap, build fast, don't require any special tech and deals nearly the same DPS to Broods as a Tempest. The Tempest isn't cheap in gas/minerals/food, doesn't build fast, requires a Fleet Beacon and only one can be built at a time from a Stargate. So the question here is that can you afford to add a bunch of 300/300 units to your deathball without gutting your deathball of other key units? Consider the fact that a single Mothership costs 400/400... Furthermore will the extra 6 range matter that much to justify the massive cost difference?
On October 06 2012 05:03 Promethelax wrote: Hopefully some P pro will figure out how to combat late game zerg without the mothership and that can become the metagame standard.
HotS Stargate, probably.
This sound like a goal the oracle should be looking at.
On October 06 2012 05:03 Promethelax wrote: Hopefully some P pro will figure out how to combat late game zerg without the mothership and that can become the metagame standard.
HotS Stargate, probably.
This sound like a goal the oracle should be looking at.
How about: Entomb stops units from producing more units (Broodlords, infestor, carrier, widow mine, etc.)! There is very little point in entomb in the late game as it is.
On a more serious note, we still need to look closely at how the tempest works in the late game vs. zerg. I am sceptical, since you could just fly over and kill them with corruptors, but it may just be the unit protoss needs. Even if it isnt the unit protoss deserves.
Also, if zerg is forced to get some vipers, that will also make the overall death ball at least slightly weaker. Dont know if that is relevant.
On October 08 2012 14:15 BronzeKnee wrote: Not to mention it waters down the game. If Abduct is useful then people simply won't build units that are worth Abducting, so we'll see Mass Blink Stalker armies or Marine/Marauder balls.
The viper only has so much energy. Since the viper doesn't deal damage, you cannot have too many of them.
On October 08 2012 14:01 MasterCynical wrote: the only thing im worried about is abduct vs motherships and mothership cores since being a hero unit, it would cripple the protoss deathball too much. Wait... isn't that a good thing?
If you're a Zerg player and you want to win 100% of your games, of course it is!
Fact is Abduct will kill Mech late game by tearing apart Siege Tank positions and do the same to Protoss by pulling in the Mothership. Abduct + Neural is better than having a Replicant who can Replicate massive units.
It has to go, late game Zerg deathballs are difficult enough to stop, but doing it with Bio and Gateway units alone is too much to ask.
Not to mention it waters down the game. If Abduct is useful then people simply won't build units that are worth Abducting, so we'll see Mass Blink Stalker armies or Marine/Marauder balls.
You do realise vipers absolutely melt to thors and vikings?
There is this thing called feedback which, I wanna say, has atleast similiar range to abduct. It's hard for toss for sure, but imo if you have enough templar it's fine.
i LOVE abduct. it adds so much more micro on both sides. and no it does not destroy positional play. in fact it just makes positional play harder and increases the skill ceiling.
ghosts/viking/thor and HT/blink vs viper wars are gonna be awesome. positioning those vipercounters to protect the thors/tanks/colossi etc. will add nice dynamics on both sides.
dont forget vipers are hivetech so all the mentioned counters can easily be part of your army (or are anyway part of it like stalkers/thors).
btw: 1 feedback or 3 snipes instakill a 200 (!!!) gas viper which is equal to a colossus or thor and a lot more expensive than a tank for example.
On October 08 2012 14:01 MasterCynical wrote: the only thing im worried about is abduct vs motherships and mothership cores since being a hero unit, it would cripple the protoss deathball too much. Wait... isn't that a good thing?
If you're a Zerg player and you want to win 100% of your games, of course it is!
Fact is Abduct will kill Mech late game by tearing apart Siege Tank positions and do the same to Protoss by pulling in the Mothership. Abduct + Neural is better than having a Replicant who can Replicate massive units.
It has to go, late game Zerg deathballs are difficult enough to stop, but doing it with Bio and Gateway units alone is too much to ask.
Not to mention it waters down the game. If Abduct is useful then people simply won't build units that are worth Abducting, so we'll see Mass Blink Stalker armies or Marine/Marauder balls.
You do realise vipers absolutely melt to thors and vikings?
In TvZ it may not be as much of a problem than in PvZ for the simple fact Terran doesn't depend on any single unit individually to hold the line against Brood/Infestor. So I am going to say I was wrong there.
But in PvZ Protoss does depend on the Mothership.
On October 08 2012 17:43 Lorch wrote: There is this thing called feedback which, I wanna say, has atleast similiar range to abduct. It's hard for toss for sure, but imo if you have enough templar it's fine.
On October 08 2012 14:15 BronzeKnee wrote: Not to mention it waters down the game. If Abduct is useful then people simply won't build units that are worth Abducting, so we'll see Mass Blink Stalker armies or Marine/Marauder balls.
The viper only has so much energy. Since the viper doesn't deal damage, you cannot have too many of them.
In WOL if you can land a NP on the Mothership and use up the energy of the Mothership that alone can be game ending, unless the Zerg makes a positioning mistake later or the Protoss had an advantage. So if you take the Mothership out the equation, a smaller Zerg force (food wise) can take down a larger Protoss force with Fungal Growth and Broods. Protoss has nothing cost efficient vs Brood/Infestor except the Archon Toliet, which is usually ridiculously cost efficient. If it wasn't this way then we'd see other options for combating Brood/Infestor, but there simply isn't any other good ones.
Adding in Abduct into the game would make it well worth it for Zerg players to overbuild Vipers and rush them at the Mothership as it moves forward to Vortex since you only need 1 Abduct to land so you can NP the Mothership and have a massive advantage since Zerg units are more cost efficient than Protoss unit. Feedback would work if it was an area of effect spell, but individually hitting a large number of Vipers all as soon as they come in range leaves huge room for a miss, because only 1 Viper needs to get into range, and if the range of Feedback is similar to Abduct, then the presence of Vipers forces the Mothership behind Templar, and then it can't get into position to Vortex for fear of Abduct, and then the Templar will get picked off by the Broods and Infestors.
So again, we are brought back to the Tempest, which does 1.5 more DPS to Broods than a single Viking... if Protoss can battle Brood/Infestor with it then everything is fine, but I am strongly doubting it will be effective with such low DPS for the cost.
tempest will be awesome vs BLs. you can even kite BLs all day long since they are faster. and if zerg has to engage your army (with the tempests) without BLs they will have a superhard time. so tempest are not there to mass but just build like 3 of them to snipe some BLs or infestors while kiting and decimating before the actual fight happens.
hopefully archon toilet will be removed with the introduction of tempest (and hopefully carrier micro).
On October 09 2012 00:34 Decendos wrote: tempest will be awesome vs BLs. you can even kite BLs all day long since they are faster. and if zerg has to engage your army (with the tempests) without BLs they will have a superhard time. so tempest are not there to mass but just build like 3 of them to snipe some BLs or infestors while kiting and decimating before the actual fight happens.
hopefully archon toilet will be removed with the introduction of tempest (and hopefully carrier micro).
I was watching GGzerg stream last night (the OP) and his opponent built many Tempest's in order to counteract his Brood/Infestor/Swarm Host/Corrupter army. I didn't work.
Without the Mothership, Zerg can simply mass a huge swell of Corrupters and just rush them at the Tempests. It was the same issue the Carrier had in late game PvZ when it tried to counteract Broods. With the Mothership if your opponent overbuilt Corrupters then you'd simply Vortex the ball of Corrupters then kill them off. And without Corruptors supporting, your Colossus could begin zoning out the Infestors (or just killing them) and killing Broodlings and Infested Terrans quickly allowing Stalkers and Voids to close in and deal with the Brood Lords and remaining Infestors.
But Protoss has no real effective AOE anti-air to deal with mass Corrupter. So again, Zerg could overbuild Corrupters and rely on the cost efficency of a smaller Brood/Infestor force vs whatever Protoss has left after the Tempests die off.
High Templar could probably protect the Tempests with Storm vs Mass Corrupter and Archons would be effective too. The problem then with Tempest/High Templar is that you wouldn't having much gas to afford much else, so you'd have a Stalker ball in addition to those units so Storm would also have to clear our the Broodlings, and your effectiveness vs Mass Roach would be questionable. You could probably afford to add in a bunch of Immortals though...
Anyway you can't kite anything all day long. On his stream he just slowly pushed the Protoss until he reached their base, and then killed them, Tempests kiting all the way. The problem was that the Corrupters tanked the Tempests as the Zerg advanced, the Tempest lacks the DPS to really punish them quickly. Furthermore the Tempests would all shoot at the closest target in range and it would often be a Broodling so they would overkill a Broodling then have to wait 3.3 seconds before they had another shot. Vikings fire faster, don't overkill as much, and can only hit air units, alleviating this issue.
I can't wait to get my beta key, should be in 5 days or less...
On October 09 2012 00:34 Decendos wrote: tempest will be awesome vs BLs. you can even kite BLs all day long since they are faster. and if zerg has to engage your army (with the tempests) without BLs they will have a superhard time. so tempest are not there to mass but just build like 3 of them to snipe some BLs or infestors while kiting and decimating before the actual fight happens.
hopefully archon toilet will be removed with the introduction of tempest (and hopefully carrier micro).
I was watching GGzerg stream last night (the OP) and his opponent built many Tempest's in order to counteract his Brood/Infestor/Swarm Host/Corrupter army.
Without the Mothership, Zerg can simply mass a huge swell of Corrupters and just rush them at the Tempests. It was the same issue the Carrier had in late game PvZ when it tried to counteract Broods. With the Mothership if your opponent overbuilt Corrupters then you'd simply Vortex the ball of Corrupters then kill them off. And without Corruptors supporting, your Colossus could begin zoning out the Infestors (or just killing them) and killing Broodlings and Infested Terrans quickly allowing Stalkers and Voids to close in and deal with the Brood Lords and remaining Infestors.
But Protoss has no real effective AOE anti-air to deal with mass Corrupter. So again, Zerg could overbuild Corrupters and rely on the cost efficency of a smaller Brood/Infestor force vs whatever Protoss has left after the Tempests die off.
High Templar could probably protect the Tempests with Storm vs Mass Corrupter and Archons would be effective too. The problem then with Tempest/High Templar is that you wouldn't having much gas to afford much else, so you'd have a Stalker ball in addition to those units so Storm would also have to clear our the Broodlings, and your effectiveness vs Mass Roach would be questionable. You could probably afford to add in a bunch of Immortals though...
I can't wait to get my beta key, should be in 5 days or less...
you already gave the answer. mass tempest just sucks (which is nice: they should be a support unit not a main army unit. even bowder said you will probably build 2-4 tempest and if you mass air you mass carrier + support). so just go for 3-5 tempest and then support. the standard stalker colossi archon HT ball with 3-4 tempests (instead of MS) will be able to fight BL infestor (with some kiting) and is a superduper anticorruptor composition. tempest has lot of hp, corruptors have a very low range + archons + storm + stalker rape them. so its not that easy to snipe tempests especially if they are parked defensively over cannons.
i think it could even work out the other way and the actual tempest + support might be OP so they have to nerf tempest range or make it a lot slower so you cant kite that much. we will just have to wait at least 1-2 months after HOTS is finished and see how it works out. it is a lot too early to tell if tempest is too weak, too strong or fine.
On October 08 2012 14:01 MasterCynical wrote: the only thing im worried about is abduct vs motherships and mothership cores since being a hero unit, it would cripple the protoss deathball too much. Wait... isn't that a good thing?
If you're a Zerg player and you want to win 100% of your games, of course it is!
Fact is Abduct will kill Mech late game by tearing apart Siege Tank positions and do the same to Protoss by pulling in the Mothership. Abduct + Neural is better than having a Replicant who can Replicate massive units.
It has to go, late game Zerg deathballs are difficult enough to stop, but doing it with Bio and Gateway units alone is too much to ask.
I'm going to stop you right there.
Fix the infestor before touching with the viper.. which is balanced.
This is how you fix the infestor.
Make fungul a 65% slowing spell
Increase NP range to 8
Ok?
Now if zergs AA is weaker or they have deathball problems.....
YOU BUFF the hydra and ultralisk for compensation.
For the hydralisk Bring it back to WOL beta stats( look up the hydralisks patch history, those 2 nerfs it got need to be un-nerfed)
For the ultralisk Increase the damage to 20(+20 vs armored) and increase the splash damage to 50%(Because the ultralisk has alot of problems, doing these changes would help it greatly)
If you increase NP range and leave Abduct in the game it doesn't change the fact that Terran and Protoss can't build any unit worth Abducting and NPing. No Thors, Colossus, Immortals, Siege Tanks, Motherships, Battle Cruisers, ect... because if they did build them they would just add to the Swarm. And if Fungal doesn't root units, then Blink Stalkers will walk all over Zerg.
There is going to be a huge increase in pre-Hive all-ins if Abduct isn't removed in PvZ.
In order to abduct 10 units (considering 2 Blinding Clouds), Zerg would need x amount of Vipers. 75(10)=200x-200 -> 750=200x-200 -> 950=200x -> 4.75=x -> round up to 5
5 Vipers with max energy, so 15 supply. Easily covered by the Spine Crawler cancelling trick.
The issue with Vipers isn't abduct, it's either energy or supply. If you change the amount of supply up to 4, then 20 supply. That seems a bit more realistic to me, but it's a bit too much supply imo.
If you change the energy cost from 75 to 100 instead, then: 1000=200x-200 -> 1200=200x -> 6=x -> 6 Vipers
6 Vipers with max energy, so 18 supply. 24 supply possibly, if both changes are combined. I don't like the look of 24 at all, but 18 seems good.
Oh, and maybe bump Infestor up to 3 supply. That would make the Infestor a lot less mass-able, like what Blizz did to the Tank. These are all gigantic changes, though. Just another thing for Blizz to mess around with since it's beta. Even then, it's not definite that Zerg deathballs, let alone Vipers/Abduct, are OP quite yet.
On October 08 2012 15:00 Crawdad wrote: And anyway, Abduct and NP have the same problem: Use them, and the caster will probably die. Vipers are so squishy that they will probably die no matter what you do with them.
NP has 7 range, Abduct has 9 range. Big difference there.
Plus, the Viper is an air unit while the Infestor is not. It makes Vipers worse against Terran, but better against Toss.
I will aggre with something like psionic unit cant be pull like archon pure energy cant be pull or mothership big to much to be pulled by one viper this game is scifi but dont mess with logic yes i also aggre pull massive is important .
How about making abduct pull massive units only half of the maximum ability range towards the viper? So if you tried to abduct a Thor, for example, it would be pulled 4,5 units towards the viper instead to the viper's location?
On October 06 2012 02:06 GGzerG wrote: I have been playing around with the Viper, and I noticed you can use the Abduct ability on the Protoss Mothership, even though I am a Zerg player and I think that this is awesome that you can abduct a Mothership, but All it takes is a few abducts to throw the mothership into your army, and then neural parasite it, then you have an easy huge advantage over the protoss army, being able to easily vortex his army and keep your units cloaked,I have already done it several times.
I don't know but to me this just seems way to strong, what do you guys think? I just think that the Abduct ability maybe shouldn't work on massive units, but then you wouldn't be able to abduct colossi, so maybe Blizzard should change it so you just cannot abduct the mothership?
Discuss.
Can you vortex while the units flying through the air when abducted ?
Abduct is fine imho. The problem is that PvZ lategame is ALL about hitting the Vortex if the game is close. So if you abduct a collosi it's bad for the Toss and good for Zerg but usually not what decides the winner. But if the Mothership dies the battle is lost for Protoss.
So the problem isn't abduct, which is totally fine. The problem is that lategame PvZ is about Vortex. I hope that the Tempest will be changed so that Protoss gets another viable lategame option against the typical Broodlord/Infestor. Maybe some changes to the Carrier will help, i don't know. But the key should be to not make Protoss that Vortex reliant.
Imo the problem here is that in the lategame everything hinges around this 1 unit, not that the abduct or neural is too strong(or atleast there should be some more testing). I think the abduct is really great against colossi, which is probably the main reason it was put in, but again, if the colossus wasent such a rediculous threat (when we dont have BL), would we really need the abduct...
It just seems too early to conclude that abduct is too strong. Yea sure in this one instance there is going to be some balancing work to be done, but for all the other situations it seems to pretty much do what it is supposed to do, and doesnt look that OP (from my newbie point of view)
On October 06 2012 05:55 Siracuz wrote: What about this:
Fungal is enough to stop an army, so why do Broodlings also prevent movement of units? It's pretty crazy how units like the Archon and maybe even the Stalker get caught up on little Broodlings they could step over. I mean, the Archon floats, and it get's stuck on a few Broodlings that it could fly right over?
The problem with Broodlord/Infestor is that you cannot move towards it. Eliminate Broodlings locking down certain units, and I don't think the Vortex will be absolutely necessary.
Archons are etheral, and maybe for that matter should not even have unit collision with any unit.
I hope I didn't overlook something important about my point but I don't really have time to sit here and contemplate every unit vs the Broodlord in terms of balance.
Having no collision with any unit? Imagine now archon colossi with some void ray army, it'll be stacked into 1 single point. That's not a solution.
Back on topic, I think mothership should also some kind of immunity against this maybe like ultralisk have immunity to slow. Mothership could have immunity to abduct. If not we can always use hts to feedback those vipers.
Don't be so quick to blow the OP whistle, esp about the biggest "maybe" I wrote.
a) Zerg deals with Colossi just fine right now, and they don't stack b) 1 Infestor will kill all of those Voids stacked up on one point c) I didn't specify but I didn't mean that Archons wouldn't collide with themselves d) That army which wouldn't be effective in the first place would never see the light of day in a match due to build times and gas intensity.
I'm going to just go ahead and post on Blizzard forums, as I think it may be a good fix, but here's the jist:
1-Archons don't collide with Broodlings and Zerglings.
2-Debatable but Fungal does not lock them down. They are made of gasses and Massive. Not colliding with Broodlings alone may not be enough, but this might be too much in certain situations. Example: if they're chain fungaled, the fix does nothing, but if Zerg doesn't have something to deal with them quick like Roaches or enough Broodlord dps, it becomes too much.
3-Neural Parasite would be the go to ability to deal with Archons (which works great mid-game but rarely seen); right now all 3 Infestor abilities are very good against them. They can't kill Infested Terran if they can't move.
With these changes tested, Mothership Vortex can be adjusted or downright removed for all I care. It's the most dependent ability in the matchup and something needs to be done with it.
This would make mass archon literally unbeatable for Zerg... Not only do they do bonus damage to every Zerg unit but with no way to hold them back with lings, brood lings or even fungals it would literally leave only one option of going roach and even this would only work midgame... To say you could neural parasite every single archon is just unrealistic... Not to mention if fungals and broodlings don't stop the archons you could literally use 1 free archon to walk right up to the investors and kill any whom are stuck attached to an archon with neural I understand the lore aspect of what you are saying however I just think this would make literally the most unstoppable unit against Zerg
Hive tech man... it's like saying BLs are strong OF COURSE THEY'RE STRONG but if you can finish the game before 20 min or have a bunch of HT which is Toss end game. Toss these days are buliding too many archons thinking that the toilet will retrieve insta gg but that's not the case in HoTs. Gotta have more HT and storm/feedback the shit outta everything really does wonders vs zerg.
On October 09 2012 04:29 BadAssJ wrote: Hive tech man... it's like saying BLs are strong OF COURSE THEY'RE STRONG but if you can finish the game before 20 min or have a bunch of HT which is Toss end game. Toss these days are buliding too many archons thinking that the toilet will retrieve insta gg but that's not the case in HoTs. Gotta have more HT and storm/feedback the shit outta everything really does wonders vs zerg.
You also cannot just bank on money storms when Zerg is camping on spine, spore, swarm host, infestor , broodlords, speedlings , ect... also if u overmake HT's u can just spread / split banelings and roll over the toss easily...
This whole thread is simply an outgrowth of the fact that SC2 is quite unstable compared to BW, in that just a few large units will determine the outcome of battles. Colossi are the paradigm case for protoss- their existence is a huge problem for the opponent, much more so than other protoss assets. And because the protoss army is dependent on a few colossi, then if the other player can neutralize or mitigate the colossi, then suddenly protoss is in a bind.
As an aside, I really really despise the abduct ability.
Binding cloud is neat (and similar to dark swarm) in that the opponent can trade focus, clicks/actions, to mostly deal with the loss of range with micro by moving units outside the cloud. Abduct feels like a "lolz i have your unit now!" ability.
I think the Viper's Abduct grab (the distance that brings units toward) depend on the kind of unit it's bringing forward. For example, a light unit would travel farther than a massive unit. I also feel that abduct is silly for a unit like the Mothership. There is already the peril of Neural Parasite: abduct just makes it too easy when it's so important. But there is a lot of time for discovery ahead, so I'm not honestly worried that much.
I have always thought that the Viper should not be able to abduct massive, it would be yet another unit from the Infestation Pit (+Hive) that does very good against Toss. With it being able to abduct massive units it renders corrupters useless, and it means Zerg could take a lot later spire than they usually do and have a stronger mid game with Vipers.
There still would be other key units that abduct would be useful against, Templars, Immortals, Sentries (although not much of an issue when zerg has Hive).
Edit: Also why was the Viper even necessary? If you look at the units that have been added to the other races, they all have the intention to fill a gap that was in WoL. Protoss need an early defensive units, bam Mothership Core; Protoss need an harassment unit, Oracle; Protoss need a way to deal with Broodlords, the Tempest. All units that are there to fill a gap, however for the viper there was no gap to be filled.
Abduct is just very harsh against Protoss, considering it is a race that relies heavily on 'key' units to have a fighting chance, these key units can all be neutralized by the Viper.
Unrealated to if it is balanced or not (i said before what i think), i really dislike the abduct spell. Pulling units around just seems weird and not really fun to me, neither while playing nor watching. But we will see, maybe I get used to it.
Vipers are like glass. As long as Blizz continues to balance their fragility with their powerful abilities, they will remain an excellent addition to HotS. They create interesting micro-intensive battles, something SC2 needs more of, not less.
1. Vipers move to front of engagement, attempting to abduct desirable units (colossi / thor / tank / immo) 2. Opponent moves forward with small clump of stimmed rines or stalkers to focus down Viper(s), while retreating desirable unit 3. Zerg pulls back Vipers 4. Repeat
This is in additionan to caster micro, concave creation, etc.
They are also Hive tech which, even given Z's penchant for rushing to it, isn't exactly speedily arrived at. I think they are the most interesting addition to HotS and I believe they are fine as is. If they prove too powerful, changing numbers around should be a suitable solution -- I think their design is solid.
You can't just tweak abduct and make it work. It is a fundamentally flawed design that disallows the opponent from microing defensively. Making it weaker would make it worthless, you have to make it DEFENDABLE, not weaker.
so defend? vipers come so late that ghosts, ht, stalker, marines, vikings, thors, widow mines and maybe even tempests and carrier are out + static defense like turrets and cannons. there is just SO MUCH available to kill the viper that it definetly is defendable and opens a lot of micro on both sides --> awesome design.
Vortex is honestly a bad ability, because it creates dumb game ending situations either way.
However the way Zerg works with Larva (instant re-max with whatever units you want), with the units they have, Protoss is going to need something as powerful as Ghosts with 45 damage Snipe to even have a chance late game without Vortex.
And no friends, the Tempest is not the solution. Even if they are out front, if multiple Vipers are rushing the Mothership they'll focus down one Viper and overkill it, while the rest are able to Abduct the Mothership.
As I've posted in the other PvZ thread, the best way to avoid this is to remove Vortex from the game and balance HotS around that. Vortex is a spell that hasn't improved any matchup, all it's done is allow Protoss to survive in PvZ in WoL, and of course decide who wins in PvP. Now that they're trying to fix the holes in the matchup, Vortex has to be addressed or PvZ will always rely on it and the balance of units like Tempest/Viper will suffer for it.
Vortex is honestly a bad ability, because it creates dumb game ending situations either way.
However the way Zerg works with Larva (instant re-max with whatever units you want), with the units they have, Protoss is going to need something as powerful as Ghosts with 45 damage Snipe to even have a chance late game without Vortex.
And no friends, the Tempest is not the solution. Even if they are out front, if multiple Vipers are rushing the Mothership they'll focus down one Viper and overkill it, while the rest are able to Abduct the Mothership.
Yea great! Always make sure to lead with your mothership. :/
On October 09 2012 05:34 ledarsi wrote: This whole thread is simply an outgrowth of the fact that SC2 is quite unstable compared to BW, in that just a few large units will determine the outcome of battles. Colossi are the paradigm case for protoss- their existence is a huge problem for the opponent, much more so than other protoss assets. And because the protoss army is dependent on a few colossi, then if the other player can neutralize or mitigate the colossi, then suddenly protoss is in a bind.
Check back in 10 years and see how its doing.
Anyway, this thread is an outgrowth of peoples impatience rather than instability. If something doesn't seem perfect at first sight, people automatically say "NERF/BUFF IT!".... No, that is not the answer and this thread (and many other threads on TL), courtesy of the OP, is taking the wrong approach to the problem. Try to think of CURRENT solutions to the problem instead of wanting immediate changes. Wait for it to play out and then make changes if it won't work out.
On October 12 2012 03:19 ClanRH.TV wrote: Check back in 10 years and see how its doing.
Anyway, this thread is an outgrowth of peoples impatience rather than instability. If something doesn't seem perfect at first sight, people automatically say "NERF/BUFF IT!".... No, that is not the answer and this thread (and many other threads on TL), courtesy of the OP, is taking the wrong approach to the problem. Try to think of CURRENT solutions to the problem instead of wanting immediate changes. Wait for it to play out and then make changes if it won't work out.
I agree, but that doesnt change the fact that abduct is a mechanic that limits the opponent rather than enable your own play. I am against that sort of ability on a conceptual level (force fields, fungal etc.). I also fail to see how this doesnt also help maintain the already stale late game of zvp when protoss already sit around waiting for a perfect vortex. This kind of situation is probably not going to change anytime soon, with or without hots units as they currently are.
Viper abduct is not too strong. Why do people keep saying stuff is too strong. Let it play out before blizzard nerfs every new thing in the game till it sucks and then we'll have wings of liberty all over again.
Things should be incredibly strong for each race - it will balance over time like brood war. Give it time.
Anyway, this thread is an outgrowth of peoples impatience rather than instability. If something doesn't seem perfect at first sight, people automatically say "NERF/BUFF IT!".... No, that is not the answer and this thread (and many other threads on TL), courtesy of the OP, is taking the wrong approach to the problem. Try to think of CURRENT solutions to the problem instead of wanting immediate changes. Wait for it to play out and then make changes if it won't work out.
I'm not suggesting any changes when I say that there are actually very few units on the board in SC2 compared to BW. And each one of those units is considerably more powerful, and more significant, than in BW. There was no such thing as a 6 supply ground unit in BW, and most units used were 1-2 supply, rather than 2-3 supply. The limit is still 200 though, which means fewer total units, and those units are bigger. This is one source of instability. It is no accident that people are complaining extensively about Colossi and Motherships and how Carriers are terrible. Few, big units --> Instability.
If you want to talk changes, I would say that supply costs across the board should be reduced. Roaches and hydras and ultralisks (oh my!), as well as colossi, thors, siege tanks, swarm hosts, widow mines, oracles... So many units in the game would benefit from it being possible to actually have more quantity, even if that would require lowering stats. These units are made interesting by how they play, not by how big their numbers are.