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On December 25 2012 20:28 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 18:33 pmp10 wrote: All the talk of the tank buff completely ignores the problems that could bring to TvZ match-up. Due to HP scaling between races any splash damage that strongly affects protoss will be devastating to zergs. The only way mech TvP will work and remain balanced is if it receives units or abilities to counter protoss. Essentially some kind of mech equivalent of ghost would be necessary. No it wont, because Zerg are "threatened" by Siege Tanks only a teeeny weenie bit more than Protoss. Just look at the damage against Zerglings ... its 35 damage ... to every Zergling IN THE CORE RADIUS, which is tiny. So increasing the damage to 70 against all units would only increase it so much that the primary and secondary radius would be deadly for Zerglings. Not that much of an increase in damage to make it totally deadly. The current numbers were balanced around shitty Steppes of War, which enabled tanks to focus down any advancing army in the center of the map while still being able to defend their base. For that kind of a stupid map the damage had to be nerfed, but what about todays maps? They are MUCH bigger and runbys are the tactic to use against mech and not head on confrontations. You arent supposed to be able to do that! Thats the whole point of it to force players to do things differently from head-on-confrontation and to use those things like Nydus Worm, drops and so on. In case you didnt realize it ... the shiny graphic explosion on your screen doesnt mean every Zergling there is dead, just 2-3 die and the rest only take some damage.
Well as far as i can tell, you could keep the splash damage the same and increate damage to the primiory target to whatever suits it, the reason why mech TvP is hard , isnt cause of the splash damage, its because chargelots take ,, is it 35 damge per shot?
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On December 25 2012 22:47 Chr15t wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 20:28 Rabiator wrote:On December 25 2012 18:33 pmp10 wrote: All the talk of the tank buff completely ignores the problems that could bring to TvZ match-up. Due to HP scaling between races any splash damage that strongly affects protoss will be devastating to zergs. The only way mech TvP will work and remain balanced is if it receives units or abilities to counter protoss. Essentially some kind of mech equivalent of ghost would be necessary. No it wont, because Zerg are "threatened" by Siege Tanks only a teeeny weenie bit more than Protoss. Just look at the damage against Zerglings ... its 35 damage ... to every Zergling IN THE CORE RADIUS, which is tiny. So increasing the damage to 70 against all units would only increase it so much that the primary and secondary radius would be deadly for Zerglings. Not that much of an increase in damage to make it totally deadly. The current numbers were balanced around shitty Steppes of War, which enabled tanks to focus down any advancing army in the center of the map while still being able to defend their base. For that kind of a stupid map the damage had to be nerfed, but what about todays maps? They are MUCH bigger and runbys are the tactic to use against mech and not head on confrontations. You arent supposed to be able to do that! Thats the whole point of it to force players to do things differently from head-on-confrontation and to use those things like Nydus Worm, drops and so on. In case you didnt realize it ... the shiny graphic explosion on your screen doesnt mean every Zergling there is dead, just 2-3 die and the rest only take some damage. Well as far as i can tell, you could keep the splash damage the same and increate damage to the primiory target to whatever suits it, the reason why mech TvP is hard , isnt cause of the splash damage, its because chargelots take ,, is it 35 damge per shot? If chargelots were the crux of the issue then addition of hellbats would make mech work. There are a number of problems from the safety of the opening to inefficiency against air transitions. Boiling it all down to just tank/immortal will in no way produce a working strategy and may only wreck other match-ups.
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Yes because 5 tanks and 3 ghosts vs. 5 immortals (which don't even shoot at the ghosts) obviously shows the entire mech vs. p matchup. Please stop with this. It doesn't help anyone and only makes you look bad.
Edit: Not to mention you spread out the immortals perfectly, but you clumped the shit out of the tanks. Such a joke.
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I have to agree with infernal dream on this one. Tanks/mech power increase exponentially with number. Having 5 tanks really doesnt mean much honestly. Not saying that mech can be viable though because it kinda isnt :p
On December 26 2012 12:51 Infernal_dream wrote:Yes because 5 tanks and 3 ghosts vs. 5 immortals (which don't even shoot at the ghosts) obviously shows the entire mech vs. p matchup. Please stop with this. It doesn't help anyone and only makes you look bad. Edit: Not to mention you spread out the immortals perfectly, but you clumped the shit out of the tanks. Such a joke.
As a mech player, you want to clump your tanks up for max power. Otherwise they will get pick off. Spreading tanks actuall make them weaker. Only reason in BW they did it was because dragoon has a slow attack animation and clumsy movement and arbiter statis so spreading tanks out slightly is good but in Sc2 it slightly different and you would want to generally keep your tanks clump. Only exception is to slightly spread them to minimize damage from storm but beside that it better to clump. Only reason this isnt an accurate representation of mech is that there was only a few tanks. It would of been a better representation if it was on a larger scale. Probably 100 food fight would be accurate.
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The reason you have to clump your tanks in SC2 is twofold- firstly they simply don't do enough damage to inflict kills unless you have a LOT of them firing together. And secondly enemy units have much higher effective damage per time against tanks (due to both better movement and damage), which means if you're spread they can kill your tanks in less time. The advantage of spreading is it takes the enemy longer to kill your tanks, but you get less damage upfront. If you decrease the time gain from spreading, and you decrease the damage of each shot, then spreading no longer makes sense.
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Some people still don't realize that the only reason mech works in bw vs Protoss is the power of tank. Big engagements in bw didn't necessarily involve spider mines butl always involve tanks and Terran can still come out ahead. If blizzard doesn't buff tank, mech will never work.
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On December 26 2012 14:54 larse wrote: Some people still don't realize that the only reason mech works in bw vs Protoss is the power of tank. Big engagements in bw didn't necessarily involve spider mines butl always involve tanks and Terran can still come out ahead. If blizzard doesn't buff tank, mech will never work.
Don't forget the immortal. If the hardened shields didn't exists then tanks will fare much better. SC:BW didn't need immortals, even with the high tank damage (70 when in siege mode).
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On December 26 2012 15:04 Unshapely wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2012 14:54 larse wrote: Some people still don't realize that the only reason mech works in bw vs Protoss is the power of tank. Big engagements in bw didn't necessarily involve spider mines butl always involve tanks and Terran can still come out ahead. If blizzard doesn't buff tank, mech will never work. Don't forget the immortal. If the hardened shields didn't exists then tanks will fare much better. SC:BW didn't need immortals, even with the high tank damage (70 when in siege mode). Immortals exist to make all ins against zerg stupid good and to destroy an entire composition single handedly. They're such a bad unit . I want them to give terran some flexivbility with builds and comps, not less.
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3 things i wanted to discuss/share
1) Use WM+Thor instead of WM+Tank to hold positions? Regarding you not being able to hold ground like you can in tvz and tvt with pre positioned widow mines + tank, has anyone tried putting ~4 widow mines and a thor a couple units in front of them? you would have to monitor it somewhat, but if they want to get past cost efficiently they will have to put a lot of attention on it too. Tanks work better in TvZ and TvT because they can shoot down units like marines and zerglings whether they are alone or grouped, but obviously you can't really do that against zealots, but thors are good for shooting down single targets.
some ideas that could work significantly better or worse depending on future patches or they can be refined through discussion:
+ Show Spoiler +basically you have the thor in front so that if they try to send 1 zealot in at a time to trigger the mines, you should be able to shoot it down before the mine shoots the missile
if they come with stalkers, they can't shoot down the mines without being shot by the thor if they commit 16 stalkers, 4 stalkers to kill each mine, and then back up, that takes a few seconds to separate those stalkers from your army and box click them like that 4 times and then shift click them backwards (they can't a click since it will target the thor)
however, if it's used like on a ramp where there is a choke, they can't use 16 stalkers like that or else the stalkers will either get in range of the mines due to clumping, or they will not be able to 1 shot all 4 mines without losing 1-2 stalkers to the thor
of course the stalkers will win that situation very cost efficiently though, but they still have to devote attention to it to make sure they don't mess up
you could also play mindgames by pretending there are widow mines there but there is just a thor (a turret can keep observers away since the thor is in front of the widow mine, and the observer would need to go the long way around to see if there are WMs... which again takes time and attention)
buying time can even let you reposition your units in time if the space you're setting the WMs+thor at isn't very far away
if they use an immortal, you could walk the thor behind the WM so that it would be shot at while it's killing the WM and/or you can just retreat the position (actually, perhaps they should revert immortal range back to 5 so that WMs can hit them)
if they use a tempest to kill the turret, you can still scan and kill off the observer then retreat the position or scan to kill more observers
if you're trying to defend a position that's far and/or just want to have a stronger position vs stalkers, you could use a couple tanks to support the thor + WMs so that he can't send in a few stalkers, target fire the widow mines and get out (and they wouldn't be able to easily tell how many tanks there exactly are)
2) Using turret+tank+WM to hold positions just like TvZ and TvT?
the observer will be zoned out by the turrets if they attack into the position, they don't know how many WMs there are (nor tanks), and if they go in they can't easily back out without being shot by many tanks
you would probably have to save most of the WMs for that to be cost efficient in most cases though, but that shouldn't be too hard since their attack priority is low
Or to be simpler, what if you were to commit so much as 5 tanks and ~10 widow mines, possibly even more as the game goes on? would that not be hard to engage?
That's a lot of food yes, but if you're having a ground battle, isn't WM + hellbat protecting your tanks very difficult to break due to all the WM burst splash damage?
3) WM may be doing a good job of discouraging deathballing all the time
Despite widow mines being different than the traditional siege tank, a defensive positional unit (also can be used for sieging), in that WMs are like a more offensive/mobile positional unit and possibly weird because of that, it actually seems to do a good job of discouraging deathballing protoss (and T/Z)
Reason being, that if in big fights you have lots of WM, it'll be unrealistic to expect to be able to get all your units via boxing and clicking over and over to shoot all the individual WMs down before they burrow and get massive damage off on your army
If that is scary enough, then big fights will be unfavourable, and encourage smaller fights where they can pick off WMs easier or where WMs aren't as effective (such as using zealots to tank WMs)
Meanwhile, big fights can still occur if there is a weakpoint in terran's defenses, such as if he doesn't have enough WMs, his WMs are out of position, or BW-style recall into their base
This also makes me wonder, what if AOE spells like EMP and storm and fungal were at their strongest, AKA emp wasn't nerfed, storm wasn't nerfed? Would that not also help discourage deathballing in certain situations? Of course there would also be many situations where the increased strength of AOE could just "balance" out and possible cause battles to end even faster, but the fact that those battles depend on spells even more than now could scare players from opting to have big fights over harassing and such
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What I don't understand is why out of all the races Terran are the only ones that have friendly fire damage. Why not remove that from the tank.
What should happen is that the tank no longer kills marines and Hellbats as Zealots charge toward them and stops IT eggs from tanks targeting on each other.
I think this is a simple thing that wont break any of the MUs...I still don't think this is enough. The Immortal is just to powerful of a counter to them.
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On December 26 2012 16:47 Lime-on wrote: What I don't understand is why out of all the races Terran are the only ones that have friendly fire damage. Why not remove that from the tank.
First off, the idea of the Terrans spending money to stop their tanks from killing their own guys is pretty hilarious. It's pretty significant to their racial identity that all their weapons are bloody unsafe and kill their own guys as often as the enemy. For Terrans, life is cheap, but tanks are expensive. But that's a lore justification, and is useless.
Nevertheless, what about all the interesting gameplay that springs from having large amounts of friendly fire damage? Protoss dropping zealots on tanks to get them to kill each other, for a start. This is also true for other sources of friendly fire, such as mine dragging. The friendly fire is exploitable by a clever and skilled opponent. Secondly, friendly fire also creates an incentive to spread your units to avoid taking unnecessary damage when the enemy closes to range- they only kill one tank instead of multiple clustered ones from the friendly splash. And lastly, the fact of friendly fire enables a weapon to be more powerful than it would otherwise be. If incompetently used, or if well exploited by the opponent, the friendly firing unit can do more harm than good.
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Maybe they should change the immortal shield from taking only 10 damage into "30% damage reduction", so that smaller damage to immortal will change very little, but large damage to immortal will still be powerful. Marine still does 5 damage (6 -(6 x 30%) = 5 (rounded), but tank does 35 damage (50-(50 x 30%) = 35).
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On December 26 2012 17:17 larse wrote: Maybe they should change the immortal shield from taking only 10 damage into "30% damage reduction", so that smaller damage to immortal will change very little, but large damage to immortal will still be powerful. Marine still does 5 damage (6 -(6 x 30%) = 5 (rounded), but tank does 35 damage (50-(50 x 30%) = 35).
Excellent suggestion. I was also thinking about something similar.
IMO Blizzard needs to redesign all the hard counters into just counters. E.g., BW Dragoon vs. Vultures (Ideally a Dragoon counters a Vulture but the trick was to put down a mine right in front of the Dragoon so it detonates - this requires a bit of micro and is not as easy as it sounds).
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On December 26 2012 17:33 Unshapely wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2012 17:17 larse wrote: Maybe they should change the immortal shield from taking only 10 damage into "30% damage reduction", so that smaller damage to immortal will change very little, but large damage to immortal will still be powerful. Marine still does 5 damage (6 -(6 x 30%) = 5 (rounded), but tank does 35 damage (50-(50 x 30%) = 35). Excellent suggestion. I was also thinking about something similar. IMO Blizzard needs to redesign all the hard counters into just counters. E.g., BW Dragoon vs. Vultures (Ideally a Dragoon counters a Vulture but the trick was to put down a mine right in front of the Dragoon so it detonates - this requires a bit of micro and is not as easy as it sounds). In other words: Fire the design team and have them replaced with someone sensible who sees the problems and acts accordingly ... but this seems unlikely because Browder will never ever undo any of his own junk, because that would be admitting that he is terrible at his job.
So all we have to do is watch the game spiral into ridiculousness and ultra-hard balance issues. The imbalanced nature - unless they manage to pull a magical rabbit out of their hats - will most likely cause some "random overpowered strategy tournament wins" like we had in the beginning with mass Reapers.
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Add in a Goliath like unit (recycle the Warhound) and give it a movement speed equal to a Stalker (2.95 I think?) and a range of 7 for it's AA. Air units are fast and have freedom of movement so the Goliaths needs to be mobile to protect anything. Deals equal damage to all targets, we already have the Viking to deal with Armored and the Thor to deal with Light.
Make it something in the range of 125/50 or 150/50 but staying relatively low on the gas. Any more and you'd be better off with a Viking and you'd be cutting too much into the Tank/Thor production. Two Goliaths should beat a single Void Ray (losing one Goliath). Production time probably around 35 or 40 seconds, health around 150.
As for the ground attack, it only has the Haywire Missiles, also range 7. The Haywire Missiles ignore Hardened Shields and do the full 30 damage to them.
This fills the AA gap, preventing Mech for instantly losing to a Protoss air switch. It also helps alleviate the strength of Hardened Shields without needing to get a ton of Ghosts.
The only other change would be to make tanks 150/100/2 instead of the 150/125/3 they are now and see how it goes. Tanks would obviously be cheaper in TvZ as well so it would have to be playtested thoroughly.
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On December 26 2012 17:33 Unshapely wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2012 17:17 larse wrote: Maybe they should change the immortal shield from taking only 10 damage into "30% damage reduction", so that smaller damage to immortal will change very little, but large damage to immortal will still be powerful. Marine still does 5 damage (6 -(6 x 30%) = 5 (rounded), but tank does 35 damage (50-(50 x 30%) = 35). Excellent suggestion. I was also thinking about something similar. 30% damage reduction on shields is exactly the same as just giving the shields more HP.
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On December 26 2012 19:18 Thezzy wrote: Add in a Goliath like unit (recycle the Warhound) and give it a movement speed equal to a Stalker (2.95 I think?) and a range of 7 for it's AA. Air units are fast and have freedom of movement so the Goliaths needs to be mobile to protect anything. Deals equal damage to all targets, we already have the Viking to deal with Armored and the Thor to deal with Light.
Make it something in the range of 125/50 or 150/50 but staying relatively low on the gas. Any more and you'd be better off with a Viking and you'd be cutting too much into the Tank/Thor production. Two Goliaths should beat a single Void Ray (losing one Goliath). Production time probably around 35 or 40 seconds, health around 150.
As for the ground attack, it only has the Haywire Missiles, also range 7. The Haywire Missiles ignore Hardened Shields and do the full 30 damage to them.
This fills the AA gap, preventing Mech for instantly losing to a Protoss air switch. It also helps alleviate the strength of Hardened Shields without needing to get a ton of Ghosts.
The only other change would be to make tanks 150/100/2 instead of the 150/125/3 they are now and see how it goes. Tanks would obviously be cheaper in TvZ as well so it would have to be playtested thoroughly. Lets think about the Goliath for a moment ... and its purpose. The main job it would have to perform in AA would be to fight Broodlords (and Tempests), since they are the really deadly air units which can rip mech apart. The range for those two units is 9.5 (with free units blocking ground movement) or 22. Do you really think that a range of 7 is enough to deal with such a threat? Personally andthing that is less than 10 range is going to be useless.
The other job of the Goliath is wielding a rapid fire machinegun to deal with small infantry units like Marines and Zerglings, because the Siege Tank *should be* the heavy gun. It isnt and needs a serious buff, but nevertheless the Goliath should never ever have missiles with a low rate of fire for ground attacks - which is the Siege Tank way to deal damage - but rather fast attacks.
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Hey guys
I was having a chat on supernova stream, when a terran said that in TvT, bio is imba since the last medivac upgrade. Mech loosing direct fights against bio ? ! Wow. Tanks need a buff.
But, for tanks to be strong lategame without breaking the 1 1 1 and early tanks pressure... i suggest this
- Add an upgrade in the fusion core or laboratory named "Armor Piercing Shot" This upgrade would change the weapon of the tanks so that it would do Pure damages. Pure damages means, no armor to reduce the tank damages. Immortals shield ? No way, immortals finally dies to tanks. 3 3 + medivac bio ? Still die to 3 3 tanks.
This way, tanks get their strenght back, without breaking the early game.
What do you guys think about it ?
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I had once conceptualized changing the immortals stats to:
- 200 shield, 25 health. -Take away Hardened Shields. -give it a Bonus 50 vs. Buildings stat. -Increased Regeneration. The Immortal recharges its shield out of combat much faster than other units (keeping true to its name).
This would make it better for dropping, and its regenerating shields would turn it into a better harasser. That way, the immortal would naturally get paired with warp prisms to take out key seige tank groups, dropping out and then loading back up to recharge their shields ultra fast.
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