Raven rework ideas - Page 3
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ian952
Canada124 Posts
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On November 08 2012 15:14 MoonCricket wrote: First things first, you need to ask yourself what roll the Raven should assume in the Terran army and what current design problems the Raven should address. If they re-designed the Raven to be a support unit for Mech in TvP match ups then it could potentially replace Auto Turret with Lockdown in order to hard counter Colossus and Immortal for example. Bingo. Bio has a long lifespan (metaphorically speaking) because of their great synergy with Medivacs. As the game goes on, you add more and more stuff to your Bio-ball. Mech doesn't really have that kind of synergy with anything in the air. If you want to turn Ravens into the Mech-Medivac, giving them Lockdown and making Autoturrets benefit from mech upgrades would be two ways to start. Another option is to allow them to repair mech units, same cost as an SCV repair but 2x faster. Not only would this add synergy with mech, it would give a T incentive to throw a Raven into his Banshee harass. | ||
Pursuit_
United States1329 Posts
On November 09 2012 06:31 Decendos wrote: ´ range 9 AND faster AND 100 energy would be broken as fuck. and its just bad because its instant AoE damage from a flying unit. just give raven an AoE over time ability. you can actually balance that and give raven more range. I don't really see how it would be imbalanced. From a Terran's point of view, when facing say storm, the storm is instantly cast and Terran has to either pre-emptively or reactively split their army; either way you're almost garunteed to take damage no matter how well you split. A longer range slightly faster HSM would still give players plenty of time to split their armies, but they couldn't just right click away from the HSM and get away with basically no damage like they currently do. I might agree a 100 energy requirement is too much, but only in the theoretical scenario where you have multiple (5+) full energy ravens. Although I agree it's kind of stupid that it's almost guaranteed to kill (or highly damage) the initial target... Maybe making HSM target an area rather than a specific unit would be better? | ||
K_osss
United States113 Posts
On November 08 2012 16:04 Freeborn wrote: How about taking away EMP from the ghost, but then not just giving it to the raven - instead it drops an Inhibitor Turret which deactivates all shields and energy dependent abilities in the vicinity. If the troops leave the are of effect they become instantly available again though. That would make the raven superbly useful while at the same time offering a different EMP variant. Anyone besides me like that idea? I think it's great I actually really like this idea. | ||
willoc
Canada1530 Posts
Irradiation Drone: Casts a stationary drone unit (like the PDD) that emits a radiation field similair to the scrapped "irradiation mine" unit from early HoTS previews. On a timer like the PDD which is upgraded via the Durable Materials upgrade just like the PDD. | ||
Crawdad
614 Posts
It's really boring. | ||
MasterCynical
505 Posts
On November 09 2012 08:02 willoc wrote: I had an idea for a new Raven spell: Irradiation Drone: Casts a stationary drone unit (like the PDD) that emits a radiation field similair to the scrapped "irradiation mine" unit from early HoTS previews. On a timer like the PDD which is upgraded via the Durable Materials upgrade just like the PDD. Do you mean the shredder? I dont recall there ever being an irradiation mine. Your idea could be great at splitting up the Deathball and more eating through shields. It will have kind of similar effects to what storm does but potentially weaker vs big armies as the drone will just die instantly. | ||
TheWickedDuck
19 Posts
On November 08 2012 14:42 PrsdntKmacho wrote: Wow you managed to write so much and say so little User was warned for this post [le]terally THIS User was warned for this post | ||
NonameAI
127 Posts
On November 08 2012 14:30 boredrex wrote: Hello TL. I'm enjoying reading all of the suggestions on how to balance HotS and make it fun again. I read in a post that David Kim is interested in reworking the Raven and Void Ray link here I thought that perhaps we can have an actual discussion on how to rework the raven. Before we begin, rework to me sounds a lot more aggressive than tweak. This means that in HotS, we could possibly have a completely different unit. However, it will likely remain a caster built from the starport. Allow me to pose a few of my ideas. My ideas are tweaks, but I think they would help 1) Auto turret at the moment is a fairly blah ability. However, I found that it is particularly good at killing widow mines, since it cannot target the turret. However, if you drop a turret adjacent to the mine, your raven dies. As a result, I think increasing the deployment range of the auto turret would be helpful. In addition, I would like it to be able to be dropped on lowered supply depots, creep tumors and units, just like a forcefield. Also, I think it would be cool if the auto turret had detection for as far as it can see so it can effectively deal with burrowed units without the raven being there. 2) Seeker Missile needs either to be replaced or reduced in cost. 125 energy is just too much. For 125 energy, I want a freaking missile that shoots at 9 range that deals 100 AoE damage like a tank shot. OR maybe a shot that does 160 damage to one target and 40 splash....sounds familiar....Currently, having a missile that does about the damage of two tank shots on air and ground units for 125 energy is really not acceptable. 3) A popular one on this forum is to replace HSM with Irradiate.... 4) My final thought is to reduce the amount of upgrades needed. Make corvid reactor one upgrade and one other upgrade that combines range, armor, and duration into one. Building armor and hi-sec auto targeting should remain, but they should not affect the raven (or alternatively, they should further enhance the ravens abilities.) Happy reworking! I agree with everything except the seeker change. Having like 5+ ravens in INSANELY powerful against zerg armies. If ravens could cast it twice as much, it would be OP. | ||
xPrimuSx
88 Posts
On November 08 2012 14:30 boredrex wrote: 1) Auto turret at the moment is a fairly blah ability. However, I found that it is particularly good at killing widow mines, since it cannot target the turret. However, if you drop a turret adjacent to the mine, your raven dies. As a result, I think increasing the deployment range of the auto turret would be helpful. In addition, I would like it to be able to be dropped on lowered supply depots, creep tumors and units, just like a forcefield. Also, I think it would be cool if the auto turret had detection for as far as it can see so it can effectively deal with burrowed units without the raven being there. How can you not kill a widow mine? Turret has range 6 and can be cast up to range 3 away from the Raven, meaning the Raven can be up to range 9 away from the Widow Mine, which has a range of 5. Since the Raven's sight range is 11, then if you can see the mine, you should be able to kill it without endangering your Raven. On November 08 2012 16:04 Freeborn wrote: How about taking away EMP from the ghost, but then not just giving it to the raven - instead it drops an Inhibitor Turret which deactivates all shields and energy dependent abilities in the vicinity. If the troops leave the are of effect they become instantly available again though. That would make the raven superbly useful while at the same time offering a different EMP variant. Anyone besides me like that idea? I think it's great Actually I had that same idea before as a replacement for EMP and keeping it on the Ghost. The Ghost would fire an "Inhibitor Round" instead of an EMP round, giving Terran the ability to force Toss out of position. I wouldn't go with instant recovery though. My idea had always been a 10% recovery, so after 10 seconds the units would be back to where they were before entering the field, but you get some additional benefit in the event your opponent just up and runs out of the effect immediately. The really nice thing about this ability though is being able to use it defensively. You can inhibit your units to protect them from EMP without actually riding them of the ability to use their spells. On November 09 2012 02:16 LastWish wrote: - Auto turret: can be placed on a friendly ground mechanical unit, only 1 per unit; additionally to the damage it would give +1 bonus armor and auto-repair ability I really like this idea for Auto Turret, it makes the Raven a better support unit and the "Mech Medivac" that has been repeatedly suggested. However, I would still like them deployable independent of a unit as well, so Ravens retain some more flexibility. One other option for the Raven that I haven't seen suggested before is modeling it after the Carrier. The unit is supposed to be constructing its various turrets and drones, so why not let it actually do that. Each ability can cost resources and the Raven can "store" a certain number of pre-made Turrets, Drones, and Missiles. If this was to be implemented though, I would say that Turrets and Drones should be recoverable so a good Terran wouldn't have to constantly be rebuilding them (Missiles of course would be single use items). HSM could then potentially be buffed into a mini-nuke with the Raven being a self-contained, flying Ghost/Ghost Academy combo. | ||
willoc
Canada1530 Posts
On November 09 2012 09:26 MasterCynical wrote: Do you mean the shredder? I dont recall there ever being an irradiation mine. Your idea could be great at splitting up the Deathball and more eating through shields. It will have kind of similar effects to what storm does but potentially weaker vs big armies as the drone will just die instantly. That's the one, the shredder. I'm just worried it could be op for mineral line harassment. | ||
Von
United States363 Posts
I do too. It is reminiscent of the area control unit Blizz originally had in mind for HoTs (forget the name of it). This ability would function in a similar role - although the unit they had in mind (and canceled) was destructive to HP in nature I think. This is potentially even better imo. | ||
ledarsi
United States475 Posts
To this end, I propose the following: Auto Turret should have its HP increased to 200 from 150. This makes it beefier, and more useful for making impromptu walls. Auto turret is a weak ability, and it should remain mostly weak, but it does need a function to support ground forces. Damage absorbing wall seems a logical role for it to fill, especially given the static nature of siege tanks. Point Defense Drone should be very significantly reworked. I think that PDD should be the Raven's workhorse ability. Presently, the PDD spawns with 200 energy, and costs 10 energy per shot to fire. This means it can only intercept 20 shots, but it has an unlimited rate of fire, and can burn 20 enemy projectiles instantaneously. I propose to rework PDD so that it can potentially intercept many more projectiles by reducing the energy cost to fire, but limiting its rate of fire. I am making up numbers which are of course subject to change upon testing, but suppose it costs 1 energy to fire, but each PDD can only intercept one shot every 0.2 seconds, or five shots per second. This means the damage mitigation by the PDD is not total- some of the damage will likely still get through. However the PDD can, if used correctly, absorb vastly more damage over its lifespan than its present form. This would greatly change the way PDD is used. If you want more damage mitigation in an area, Terran will need to lay down more PDD's there. Where they overlap, the damage mitigation would be greatest, and shooting through those areas would reduce the number of projectiles more significantly. Furthermore, the position that the PDD goes down would start to matter, as it would likely stand for some time. This would also allow it to potentially regenerate energy over its lifespan, allowing it be absorb even more enemy projectiles. Because PDD's only stop projectiles at a finite rate, using multiple units will allow you to target fire the PDD if you want it destroyed- unless there are a LOT of PDD's in the target area. I also think PDD should become a true structure, and be impervious to feedback. Protoss should be required to feedback the Raven before it can use the ability, and not just feedback the PDD after it has been cast. PDD already benefits from structure armor and range, but for some reason it can still be feedback'd. This should be corrected. All Seeker Missile needs is to have its range increased to 9. Range 6 makes using the missile a suicide run for the squishy and expensive Raven, as that is very dangerously close to any kind of ranged attacker than can shoot flying units. I do not think it is a good idea to make Seeker missile cost 100 energy- this ability should be an inefficient use of a support caster for immediate direct damage. Auto Turret and PDD should be the bulk of the Raven's utility unless you're swimming in Raven energy. | ||
gengka
Malaysia461 Posts
other. WOW THAT WOULD BE EPIC! | ||
boredrex
United States137 Posts
On November 09 2012 10:52 xPrimuSx wrote: How can you not kill a widow mine? Turret has range 6 and can be cast up to range 3 away from the Raven, meaning the Raven can be up to range 9 away from the Widow Mine, which has a range of 5. Since the Raven's sight range is 11, then if you can see the mine, you should be able to kill it without endangering your Raven. Glad you noticed this. It's actually funny, I thought this would be the way too. But take this scenario - You have a medivac, and you want to clear the mineral line of your opponent of widow mines so that the medivac doesn't just go blammo and lose you units. So you bring a raven to the mineral line. There are a few widow mines lining the edges. You drop an auto turret. If you drop it anywhere near the mine, turret will launch and your raven will die. If the mines are buried two spaces away from the edge, you can drop it directly in front and manage to escape. But anything but directly in front will cause it to die. I seriously like the idea of the inhibitor drone. | ||
ledarsi
United States475 Posts
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Fen1kz
Russian Federation216 Posts
On November 09 2012 13:16 ledarsi wrote: PDD should work on widow mine projectiles. I think Blizzard already said they will correct this. and also - broodlord shots! | ||
xPrimuSx
88 Posts
On November 09 2012 12:36 ledarsi wrote: + Show Spoiler [PDD confusion] + The Raven is one of the most expensive casters in the game, and is extremely difficult to get in quantity as well due to the high cost of the Starport. It seems logical that it should be a powerful support caster, with limited direct offensive power on its own, but able to greatly strengthen a meaty army, especially mech. To this end, I propose the following: Auto Turret should have its HP increased to 200 from 150. This makes it beefier, and more useful for making impromptu walls. Auto turret is a weak ability, and it should remain mostly weak, but it does need a function to support ground forces. Damage absorbing wall seems a logical role for it to fill, especially given the static nature of siege tanks. Point Defense Drone should be very significantly reworked. I think that PDD should be the Raven's workhorse ability. Presently, the PDD spawns with 200 energy, and costs 10 energy per shot to fire. This means it can only intercept 20 shots, but it has an unlimited rate of fire, and can burn 20 enemy projectiles instantaneously. I propose to rework PDD so that it can potentially intercept many more projectiles by reducing the energy cost to fire, but limiting its rate of fire. I am making up numbers which are of course subject to change upon testing, but suppose it costs 1 energy to fire, but each PDD can only intercept one shot every 0.2 seconds, or five shots per second. This means the damage mitigation by the PDD is not total- some of the damage will likely still get through. However the PDD can, if used correctly, absorb vastly more damage over its lifespan than its present form. This would greatly change the way PDD is used. If you want more damage mitigation in an area, Terran will need to lay down more PDD's there. Where they overlap, the damage mitigation would be greatest, and shooting through those areas would reduce the number of projectiles more significantly. Furthermore, the position that the PDD goes down would start to matter, as it would likely stand for some time. This would also allow it to potentially regenerate energy over its lifespan, allowing it be absorb even more enemy projectiles. Because PDD's only stop projectiles at a finite rate, using multiple units will allow you to target fire the PDD if you want it destroyed- unless there are a LOT of PDD's in the target area. I also think PDD should become a true structure, and be impervious to feedback. Protoss should be required to feedback the Raven before it can use the ability, and not just feedback the PDD after it has been cast. PDD already benefits from structure armor and range, but for some reason it can still be feedback'd. This should be corrected. All Seeker Missile needs is to have its range increased to 9. Range 6 makes using the missile a suicide run for the squishy and expensive Raven, as that is very dangerously close to any kind of ranged attacker than can shoot flying units. I do not think it is a good idea to make Seeker missile cost 100 energy- this ability should be an inefficient use of a support caster for immediate direct damage. Auto Turret and PDD should be the bulk of the Raven's utility unless you're swimming in Raven energy. One thing you don't quite seem to get about the PDD is that it does regen energy, and does so almost twice as fast as every other unit in the game. The PDD gains 1 energy per second, so after 10 seconds of life it can negate another attack, and it lasts 180s so that translates to an additional 18 attacks negated (or 38 total) and with Durable Materials it brings its life up to 240s, or 6 additional attacks (44 total attacks blocked). The PDD is not limited to blocking 20 attacks. On November 09 2012 13:02 boredrex wrote: Glad you noticed this. It's actually funny, I thought this would be the way too. But take this scenario - You have a medivac, and you want to clear the mineral line of your opponent of widow mines so that the medivac doesn't just go blammo and lose you units. So you bring a raven to the mineral line. There are a few widow mines lining the edges. You drop an auto turret. If you drop it anywhere near the mine, turret will launch and your raven will die. If the mines are buried two spaces away from the edge, you can drop it directly in front and manage to escape. But anything but directly in front will cause it to die. I seriously like the idea of the inhibitor drone. Ah, I hadn't considered Widow Mines at an edge at the back of a base, I was mostly thinking about pushing in against them. Well I guess that's my lack of experience (i.e. none) with HotS showing. | ||
ledarsi
United States475 Posts
Propose whatever numbers you like- I merely suggest that PDD would be more interesting if it blocks more shots per energy, but is not an absolute protection barrier even when charged. At one shot per 0.2 seconds a single PDD might be perfect protection against two-ish stalkers. Bring more guns and shots will get past, without more PDDs anyway. Rather than regenerate enough energy to block one shot per 10 seconds, what about one shot per second, with the rate of fire limitation? So over its three minute lifespan it regenerates enough energy to block 180 shots, if the enemy is silly enough to fight in the area for three entire minutes without killing the drone. | ||
BurningRanger
Germany303 Posts
Anyways, I think the cast range of the Seeker Missile is it's biggest problem right now. It's so low that it quite much turns the Raven into a big, expensive, flying baneling. If you get to fire the HSM you're lucky, but the Raven will probably die every time. Also the damage being smaller, the further away from the impact location, makes it a quite much useless anti-ground AoE spell. With this limited use I think a buff should be acceptable. Another nice idea would be a repair spell. Not like Medivac healing (or SC2 campaign science vessel auto-repair), but like a point and click repair, maybe even AoE, which requires some micro. Something like: activate spell -> click on a unit or area -> the unit or all units in the area are repaired for x HP (over y seconds?). Animation: some small repair bots or so. This is useable for both Mech and Air units, buffing both styles a little (because both are rather under-used now imo). | ||
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