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Hello TL.
I'm enjoying reading all of the suggestions on how to balance HotS and make it fun again. I read in a post that David Kim is interested in reworking the Raven and Void Ray link here I thought that perhaps we can have an actual discussion on how to rework the raven.
Before we begin, rework to me sounds a lot more aggressive than tweak. This means that in HotS, we could possibly have a completely different unit. However, it will likely remain a caster built from the starport.
Allow me to pose a few of my ideas. My ideas are tweaks, but I think they would help
1) Auto turret at the moment is a fairly blah ability. However, I found that it is particularly good at killing widow mines, since it cannot target the turret. However, if you drop a turret adjacent to the mine, your raven dies. As a result, I think increasing the deployment range of the auto turret would be helpful. In addition, I would like it to be able to be dropped on lowered supply depots, creep tumors and units, just like a forcefield. Also, I think it would be cool if the auto turret had detection for as far as it can see so it can effectively deal with burrowed units without the raven being there.
2) Seeker Missile needs either to be replaced or reduced in cost. 125 energy is just too much. For 125 energy, I want a freaking missile that shoots at 9 range that deals 100 AoE damage like a tank shot. OR maybe a shot that does 160 damage to one target and 40 splash....sounds familiar....Currently, having a missile that does about the damage of two tank shots on air and ground units for 125 energy is really not acceptable.
3) A popular one on this forum is to replace HSM with Irradiate....
4) My final thought is to reduce the amount of upgrades needed. Make corvid reactor one upgrade and one other upgrade that combines range, armor, and duration into one. Building armor and hi-sec auto targeting should remain, but they should not affect the raven (or alternatively, they should further enhance the ravens abilities.)
Happy reworking!
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Wow you managed to write so much and say so little
User was warned for this post
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I agree that auto-turrets are... really bad.... they should change that with a spell that grants (aoe or single target) mech unit like +30 more armor for 5 seconds.
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I like your first point to increase autoturret range
Also, It'd be nice if blizzard would make it that you can cast them like infested terran. I mean that you could place it anywhere, because it's hard to ravens to put autoturret during a big battle, and it's not worth your precious apm
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On November 08 2012 14:42 PrsdntKmacho wrote: Wow you managed to write so much and say so little Thanks, it's a talent I picked up doing college course work.
Also, crbox, your suggestion to make it like infested terran is actually what I really meant, not like forcefield. I was thinking it would be awkward if you stacked about 30 turrets in one 2x2 box. Not sure why my mind didn't go straight there.
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First things first, you need to ask yourself what roll the Raven should assume in the Terran army and what current design problems the Raven should address. If they re-designed the Raven to be a support unit for Mech in TvP match ups then it could potentially replace Auto Turret with Lockdown in order to hard counter Colossus and Immortal for example.
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I am pretty sure that blizzard will not add any bw units or skills to the game at this point, so stop asking for it already.
As for the raven - it's actualy a really good unit and auto turret are pretty good too. But it's simply not usable enough for it's price and the time it takes to mass them.
My suggestion would be too cut the gas costs a little and decrease the buildtime.
Then increase auto turret drop range and maybe lower energy cost. But remove HSM and instead give it to the viking as an upgrade, each viking gets 1 missile.
That would make ravens more easily available and massable but they would not be able to kill anything by themselves other than using autoturrets. One other option would be to give them a second type of turret to drop...
How about taking away EMP from the ghost, but then not just giving it to the raven - instead it drops an Inhibitor Turret which deactivates all shields and energy dependent abilities in the vicinity. If the troops leave the are of effect they become instantly available again though. That would make the raven superbly useful while at the same time offering a different EMP variant. Anyone besides me like that idea?
I think it's great
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I've always throught the Raven deserved to be more of a core support unit, as equally valuable as the Sci Vessel was in BW.
Instead, it's overpriced, fragile, and the abilities - as a rule - are not balanced to be useful enough.
For some reason Seeker Missles are one of the coolest weapons in the game lol. I can't quite define why it's so awesome to see these go off in a match and get a strike off at the crucial moment, but it is. Love it. And I know I'm not alone.
How hard can it be to tweak the numbers on that ability to make it viable (but not OP) in all three matchups?
It's not.
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I think it would be fun if auto-turrets, just like PDD, were a flying, immobile units.
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I think increasing the deployment range of the auto turret would be helpful. In addition, I would like it to be able to be dropped on lowered supply depots, creep tumors and units, just like a forcefield.
This
As many people currently regard getting close enough to deploy a seeker missile a suicide mission for the raven, it's even worse trying to place a turret at three range, then a unit moves into your intended location and the turret can't be placed.....but your raven dies anyway.
If they made turret range six, energy cost 25 and decreased seeker missile cost to 100, I would be very happy with the raven.
Might even be enough to stop me switching to Zerg when hots comes out.
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Autoturrets should get damage upgrades alongside mech ground.
Replace seeker missile with irradiate.
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I think auto turrent (cast) range and HSM cost are the biggest problems. (As a Fuzer fan, I've seen him simply beat zergs with ravens - and have occasionally had some luck with them as well).
As others have mentioned, it's VERY difficult to successfully place ATs. This is due to both their 2x2 size and limited cast range. At times, I wish they were more like IT's ("units" not "building") however there are definitely situations where they can be useful (blocking ramps - hmmm, gonna try a sentry immortal style ramp block next chance i get - and even serving as buffers in engagements). Again, the problem is being ABLE to place them. With a cast range buff they could be used much easier as your raven's don't need to get into position first. I really like the idea of giving turrets detection too - I know it might seem redundant, but having personally used them to clear creep, it would actually make a difference (and I'm sure it would help with mines too).
HSM... I think the energy cost is an obvious issue (unless something else was buffed). Obviously not everything can be equal, but comparing HSM to storm and fungal is... interesting. I really wouldn't change anything besides the casting cost from 125 to 100. However, it's also important to note that HSM is the only one of the 3 spells that stacks damage so maybe there is a reason for the higher cost (but is also the only spell that can be 100% dodged AFTER it's cast - I do like the mechanic tho and think it should remain). Another angle might be to increase the benefit of the corvid reactor upgrade (+50 instead of 25). This would allow the raven to be more quickly useful but still not allow double HSMs per caster...
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On November 08 2012 17:38 Tritanis wrote: I think it would be fun if auto-turrets, just like PDD, were a flying, immobile units.
Agreed. Some might argue that this would make it OP vs ground armies with no AA, but then again, by the time you have ravens out shouldn't the other guy have some AA too?
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auto-turrets are fine. they are supposed to be used as a harrassment tool not as a deathball tool. terrans need to harrass more often with raven + vikings which is completely riskless because of PDD protecting them if there is only air space underneath them. problem is that most maps dont have that air space so the expensive ravens can be catched by blinkstalker/marines/fungal.
HSM needs to really be changed. instant superhigh splash damage that is ranged and from a flying unit cant be balanced so it is pretty bad right now (low range, slow movement towards opponent). give the raven a "non-instant" over time splash damage (like fungal or storm damage works) like irridate. that way they could make it a spell that hits the opponents unit immediately instead of walking towards it and it could have a higher range so no more suicide ravens.
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The raven is a decent support unit already. We don't need more super power spell caster units like the infestor or HT, we need more powerful positional units. Buff the Seige Tank, not the Raven.
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Russian Federation216 Posts
autoturret -> placing anywhere and make benefit from upgrades, even maybe +2/upgrade also lower upgrades cost for that unit (armor, range etc)
PDD -> make it stop broodlord shots and kill (yea!) interceptors, and also stop widow mine widows (rockets) now its kind of buggy unit which doesn't stop things it should
seekor -> awful spell, but if not rework it: lower cost to 75, damage 50-75 too, make it ground targetable, increase speed and lower splash radius and increase target raduis to 9 otherwise its just dont needed, instead of your 100-200 raven better build 4-8 mines, they at least will deal damage, not like stupid HSM
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I have been working on changes for many units and working them into a mod this is what I did to the Raven
Raven + Show Spoiler +These are several BIG buffs to raven Build time reduced to 50 Changes to Upgrades+ Show Spoiler +Corvid reactor + Show Spoiler +Gives raven and PDD increased energy regen of .3 Increases attack rate of auto turret by .2 Increases attack range by 2 HSM acceleration increased by .2 HSM ability increased range by 2 Durable Materials + Show Spoiler +Raven health increased by 20 Auto turret and PDD health increased by 50 Changes to Abilities+ Show Spoiler +Auto-Turret + Show Spoiler +Armor increased to 2 from 1 HSM + Show Spoiler +Increased range by 1 Increase splash to 2.5 Increased damage to 125 and 65 in outer .5 of radius This is to make a faster better support unit for terran that can change the strategic landscape, harass or support
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On November 08 2012 17:54 Aetherial wrote: Defensive Matrix!
This and irrediate, would make me so happy as terran!!!
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On November 08 2012 22:56 Snowbear wrote:This and irrediate, would make me so happy as terran!!!
Irradiate isn't strong enough in TvP IMO.
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On November 08 2012 23:06 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 22:56 Snowbear wrote:On November 08 2012 17:54 Aetherial wrote: Defensive Matrix! This and irrediate, would make me so happy as terran!!! Irradiate isn't strong enough in TvP IMO.
How many times do people have to say it? Ravens-Do-Not-Work-In-TvP-Because-Of-Feedback. So you can give the most amazing spell to the raven, it won't work in tvp because it WILL be feedbacked.
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Maybe make it so Hunter Seeker Missile doesn't have a travel time but latches onto a target, kinda like the alpha Widow Mine.
This would cause massive damage if the victim doesn't split his units, similiar to Irradiate.
An ability that is mitigated by micro is always a good thing.
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On November 08 2012 23:14 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 23:06 SarcasmMonster wrote:On November 08 2012 22:56 Snowbear wrote:On November 08 2012 17:54 Aetherial wrote: Defensive Matrix! This and irrediate, would make me so happy as terran!!! Irradiate isn't strong enough in TvP IMO. How many times do people have to say it? Ravens-Do- Not-Work-In-TvP-Because-Of-Feedback. So you can give the most amazing spell to the raven, it won't work in tvp because it WILL be feedbacked.
like storm isnt viable because of EMP? or is it EMP that isnt viable because of feedback? and what happens if you combine ravens and ghosts? omg the world is gonna end. :-P
nobodys perfect and so arent pros. thats why you see both emp/snipe and storm/feedback go off on both sides. so some ravens will be feedbacked before the HT are EMPed and some ravens will be able to cast because HT will be EMPed.
this is of course assuming the range of irradiate will be range 9. if it keeps the low range of seeker missile you are definetly right that they almost always will be feedbacked.
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Some interesting suggestions in this thread. I always thought that the auto turret should have shared upgrades with mechanical units.
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On November 08 2012 23:14 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 23:06 SarcasmMonster wrote:On November 08 2012 22:56 Snowbear wrote:On November 08 2012 17:54 Aetherial wrote: Defensive Matrix! This and irrediate, would make me so happy as terran!!! Irradiate isn't strong enough in TvP IMO. How many times do people have to say it? Ravens-Do- Not-Work-In-TvP-Because-Of-Feedback. So you can give the most amazing spell to the raven, it won't work in tvp because it WILL be feedbacked.
That's like saying Infestors are useless in ZvP because of feedback.
I would argue (like most people) that Infestors are quite strong in ZvP.
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i kinda like the idea that Raven should have some support spell for mech army. it's not have to be defensive matrix but something that can help protect siege tank would work.
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On November 08 2012 23:44 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 23:14 Snowbear wrote:On November 08 2012 23:06 SarcasmMonster wrote:On November 08 2012 22:56 Snowbear wrote:On November 08 2012 17:54 Aetherial wrote: Defensive Matrix! This and irrediate, would make me so happy as terran!!! Irradiate isn't strong enough in TvP IMO. How many times do people have to say it? Ravens-Do- Not-Work-In-TvP-Because-Of-Feedback. So you can give the most amazing spell to the raven, it won't work in tvp because it WILL be feedbacked. That's like saying Infestors are useless in ZvP because of feedback. I would argue (like most people) that Infestors are quite strong in ZvP.
Yeah in theory it wouldn't work with feedback but we are seeing mech develop in HOTS TvP, coupled with tanks and a small range boosts on the raven's spells I see it working very well. Feedbacking a raven is nice but try to do it under siege tank range.
On November 08 2012 23:37 Glockateer wrote: Some interesting suggestions in this thread. I always thought that the auto turret should have shared upgrades with mechanical units.
Right now they are considered buildings, which is why they can't be placed on top of units or other buildings like lowered supply depots and creep tumors. They also benefit from the armor plating building upgrade and the range one as well. Make it like IT that are considered units and they would be placable anywhere and benefit from upgrades.
On November 08 2012 23:16 Arco wrote: Maybe make it so Hunter Seeker Missile doesn't have a travel time but latches onto a target, kinda like the alpha Widow Mine.
This would cause massive damage if the victim doesn't split his units, similiar to Irradiate.
An ability that is mitigated by micro is always a good thing.
It already latches on a target and has a timer which is like the alpha widow mine. The difference as you said is the travel time but that doesn't limit micro at all, you still have to split units and try to find the one targeted to run it away. I don't think it would make a difference.
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I think Auto Turret is a silly ability to put on terran's highest tech spell caster. It's a cool idea for an ability, but it shouldn't be on the Raven. It just doesn't have enough OOMPH! It would be much more interesting on a mech unit, maybe as a standard Thor ability, which would give Thors a way to spend their energy and avoid Feedback damage, making them more viable in TvP.
I think something like Defense Matrix would be a nice ability to give the Raven. You could matrix another Raven so it can move close and get off it's HSM.
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On November 09 2012 00:46 Fig wrote: I think Auto Turret is a silly ability to put on terran's highest tech spell caster. It's a cool idea for an ability, but it shouldn't be on the Raven. It just doesn't have enough OOMPH! It would be much more interesting on a mech unit, maybe as a standard Thor ability, which would give Thors a way to spend their energy and avoid Feedback damage, making them more viable in TvP.
I think something like Defense Matrix would be a nice ability to give the Raven. You could matrix another Raven so it can move close and get off it's HSM.
I dont agree with you, for me its more Terran an Auto Turret that is like a robot with an IA than a energy field or shield that its more suitable for Protoss.
I think that auto-turrets should get ship upgrades (damage+armor).
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On November 08 2012 16:04 Freeborn wrote:I am pretty sure that blizzard will not add any bw units or skills to the game at this point, so stop asking for it already. As for the raven - it's actualy a really good unit and auto turret are pretty good too. But it's simply not usable enough for it's price and the time it takes to mass them. My suggestion would be too cut the gas costs a little and decrease the buildtime. Then increase auto turret drop range and maybe lower energy cost. But remove HSM and instead give it to the viking as an upgrade, each viking gets 1 missile. That would make ravens more easily available and massable but they would not be able to kill anything by themselves other than using autoturrets. One other option would be to give them a second type of turret to drop... How about taking away EMP from the ghost, but then not just giving it to the raven - instead it drops an Inhibitor Turret which deactivates all shields and energy dependent abilities in the vicinity. If the troops leave the are of effect they become instantly available again though. That would make the raven superbly useful while at the same time offering a different EMP variant. Anyone besides me like that idea? I think it's great
You mean like re-skinned Firebats /facepalm.
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On November 08 2012 23:30 Decendos wrote: this is of course assuming the range of irradiate will be range 9. if it keeps the low range of seeker missile you are definetly right that they almost always will be feedbacked. That's quite a big assumption. The range of seeker missile is currently at 6.
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On November 09 2012 01:42 pmp10 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 23:30 Decendos wrote: this is of course assuming the range of irradiate will be range 9. if it keeps the low range of seeker missile you are definetly right that they almost always will be feedbacked. That's quite a big assumption. The range of seeker missile is currently at 6.
yeah i know. but like i said before. a higher ranged HSM would be nerfed so much in damage to not become OP that it would basically become useless.
thats why i love the idea lots of people posted in other threads to give the raven irradiate instead of HSM. irradiate is just such an awesome spell: it forces micro from the opponent, its a spell that increases the skill ceiling since better player will take less damage from it AND it punishes clumping/deathball play a lot AND you can use it to harrass (either directly on worker or on sth. like a banshee or viking or even a fast helion and fly/drive in worker line).
since it doesnt do huge instant damage like HSM it will be fine to increase the casting range to 8 or 9 which adds a lot of durability to the expensive raven.
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Just 2 ideas: - HSM: target area and reworked damage: lower base +bonus vs armor unit so that it won't be super imba vs muta/hydras but will also do a lot vs broodlords (the speed would remain about the same = starting slow, accelerating, so that you can dodge) - Auto turret: can be placed on a friendly ground mechanical unit, only 1 per unit; additionally to the damage it would give +1 bonus armor and auto-repair ability
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On November 08 2012 23:06 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 22:56 Snowbear wrote:On November 08 2012 17:54 Aetherial wrote: Defensive Matrix! This and irrediate, would make me so happy as terran!!! Irradiate isn't strong enough in TvP IMO.
they dont have to be like infestors (good no matter when you make it)
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On November 08 2012 23:14 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 23:06 SarcasmMonster wrote:On November 08 2012 22:56 Snowbear wrote:On November 08 2012 17:54 Aetherial wrote: Defensive Matrix! This and irrediate, would make me so happy as terran!!! Irradiate isn't strong enough in TvP IMO. How many times do people have to say it? Ravens-Do- Not-Work-In-TvP-Because-Of-Feedback. So you can give the most amazing spell to the raven, it won't work in tvp because it WILL be feedbacked.
giving raven irradiate will fix this problem to an extent. Just like how its ghost snipe vs HT feedback, it will be HT feedback vs raven irradiate
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I personally think that while the auto turrets should be treated as a unit like IT, I would rather them be structures for the purpose of being an anti widow mine unit. However, if they were treated as units, then I could be on board with this if they still block movement, since they would be awesome in TvZ to split lings/blings.
Lots of great suggestions so far. I hope we don't see anything as drastic as the transformation the oracle went through, but I want to see something significant.
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please just make it able to be built in less than 5 minutes, not a floating sky chandelier, and have at least ONE good move like infestors/HT!?!?
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On November 08 2012 23:44 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 23:14 Snowbear wrote:On November 08 2012 23:06 SarcasmMonster wrote:On November 08 2012 22:56 Snowbear wrote:On November 08 2012 17:54 Aetherial wrote: Defensive Matrix! This and irrediate, would make me so happy as terran!!! Irradiate isn't strong enough in TvP IMO. How many times do people have to say it? Ravens-Do- Not-Work-In-TvP-Because-Of-Feedback. So you can give the most amazing spell to the raven, it won't work in tvp because it WILL be feedbacked. That's like saying Infestors are useless in ZvP because of feedback. I would argue (like most people) that Infestors are quite strong in ZvP.
That's not even a close comparison. Infestors require a single tech structure which is in the normal Zerg path to Hive and a single upgrade for Infestor Energy. At which point they get an all-purpose, 75 energy AoE spell that damages and roots in addition to the versatility of IT and possibly Burrow Movement (requires an upgrade, but the only upgrade requires affects all Zerg ground units). Raven Production costs 150/100 per Starport + a Tech On top of that, and at least 2 upgrades to be viable. On top of that High Templar aren't even a mainstay unit in Protoss compositions vZ (They're often morphed straight to Archons) because storm doesn't fare incredibly well against Zerg armies. In PvT on the other hand, High Templar with storm are almost necessary to beat bio armies.
Edit: I think Raven's would be fine with a 9 range, faster moving HSM that only cost 100 Energy. After all, it requires an upgrade to use and is (at least in it's current form) extremely easy to dodge- a faster moving HSM would be offset by the longer range so you'd still have time to react. Currently the energy cost is ridiculous (only able to use once per fight?). Auto Turret and PDD are fine IMO.
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On November 09 2012 06:19 Pursuit_ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 23:44 SarcasmMonster wrote:On November 08 2012 23:14 Snowbear wrote:On November 08 2012 23:06 SarcasmMonster wrote:On November 08 2012 22:56 Snowbear wrote:On November 08 2012 17:54 Aetherial wrote: Defensive Matrix! This and irrediate, would make me so happy as terran!!! Irradiate isn't strong enough in TvP IMO. How many times do people have to say it? Ravens-Do- Not-Work-In-TvP-Because-Of-Feedback. So you can give the most amazing spell to the raven, it won't work in tvp because it WILL be feedbacked. That's like saying Infestors are useless in ZvP because of feedback. I would argue (like most people) that Infestors are quite strong in ZvP. That's not even a close comparison. Infestors require a single tech structure which is in the normal Zerg path to Hive and a single upgrade for Infestor Energy. At which point they get an all-purpose, 75 energy AoE spell that damages and roots in addition to the versatility of IT and possibly Burrow Movement (requires an upgrade, but the only upgrade requires affects all Zerg ground units). Raven Production costs 150/100 per Starport + a Tech On top of that, and at least 2 upgrades to be viable. On top of that High Templar aren't even a mainstay unit in Protoss compositions vZ (They're often morphed straight to Archons) because storm doesn't fare incredibly well against Zerg armies. In PvT on the other hand, High Templar with storm are almost necessary to beat bio armies. Edit: I think Raven's would be fine with a 9 range, faster moving HSM that only cost 100 Energy. After all, it requires an upgrade to use and is (at least in it's current form) extremely easy to dodge- a faster moving HSM would be offset by the longer range so you'd still have time to react. Currently the energy cost is ridiculous (only able to use once per fight?). Auto Turret and PDD are fine IMO.
´ range 9 AND faster AND 100 energy would be broken as fuck. and its just bad because its instant AoE damage from a flying unit. just give raven an AoE over time ability. you can actually balance that and give raven more range.
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On November 09 2012 06:31 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 06:19 Pursuit_ wrote:On November 08 2012 23:44 SarcasmMonster wrote:On November 08 2012 23:14 Snowbear wrote:On November 08 2012 23:06 SarcasmMonster wrote:On November 08 2012 22:56 Snowbear wrote:On November 08 2012 17:54 Aetherial wrote: Defensive Matrix! This and irrediate, would make me so happy as terran!!! Irradiate isn't strong enough in TvP IMO. How many times do people have to say it? Ravens-Do- Not-Work-In-TvP-Because-Of-Feedback. So you can give the most amazing spell to the raven, it won't work in tvp because it WILL be feedbacked. That's like saying Infestors are useless in ZvP because of feedback. I would argue (like most people) that Infestors are quite strong in ZvP. That's not even a close comparison. Infestors require a single tech structure which is in the normal Zerg path to Hive and a single upgrade for Infestor Energy. At which point they get an all-purpose, 75 energy AoE spell that damages and roots in addition to the versatility of IT and possibly Burrow Movement (requires an upgrade, but the only upgrade requires affects all Zerg ground units). Raven Production costs 150/100 per Starport + a Tech On top of that, and at least 2 upgrades to be viable. On top of that High Templar aren't even a mainstay unit in Protoss compositions vZ (They're often morphed straight to Archons) because storm doesn't fare incredibly well against Zerg armies. In PvT on the other hand, High Templar with storm are almost necessary to beat bio armies. Edit: I think Raven's would be fine with a 9 range, faster moving HSM that only cost 100 Energy. After all, it requires an upgrade to use and is (at least in it's current form) extremely easy to dodge- a faster moving HSM would be offset by the longer range so you'd still have time to react. Currently the energy cost is ridiculous (only able to use once per fight?). Auto Turret and PDD are fine IMO. ´ range 9 AND faster AND 100 energy would be broken as fuck. and its just bad because its instant AoE damage from a flying unit. just give raven an AoE over time ability. you can actually balance that and give raven more range. I actually really like the mechanics of HSM. I of course agree that 9 range AND energy reduction would be OP... I suggested earlier making corvid reactor +50 energy instead of 25... This would allow ravens to have utility earlier but still limit being able to double cast HSM (and keep the time between getting the next HSM - since HSM is the only "spell" that stacks). Overall auto turret could really benefit from a cast range increase... (also, the raven as a whole would benefit if there was a change to FG - range/root/chaining/something...)
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I actually like your suggestions. You suggestions are unlike the other ones that are trying to make sc2 like LoL
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On November 08 2012 15:14 MoonCricket wrote: First things first, you need to ask yourself what roll the Raven should assume in the Terran army and what current design problems the Raven should address. If they re-designed the Raven to be a support unit for Mech in TvP match ups then it could potentially replace Auto Turret with Lockdown in order to hard counter Colossus and Immortal for example.
Bingo. Bio has a long lifespan (metaphorically speaking) because of their great synergy with Medivacs. As the game goes on, you add more and more stuff to your Bio-ball. Mech doesn't really have that kind of synergy with anything in the air.
If you want to turn Ravens into the Mech-Medivac, giving them Lockdown and making Autoturrets benefit from mech upgrades would be two ways to start. Another option is to allow them to repair mech units, same cost as an SCV repair but 2x faster. Not only would this add synergy with mech, it would give a T incentive to throw a Raven into his Banshee harass.
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On November 09 2012 06:31 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 06:19 Pursuit_ wrote:On November 08 2012 23:44 SarcasmMonster wrote:On November 08 2012 23:14 Snowbear wrote:On November 08 2012 23:06 SarcasmMonster wrote:On November 08 2012 22:56 Snowbear wrote:On November 08 2012 17:54 Aetherial wrote: Defensive Matrix! This and irrediate, would make me so happy as terran!!! Irradiate isn't strong enough in TvP IMO. How many times do people have to say it? Ravens-Do- Not-Work-In-TvP-Because-Of-Feedback. So you can give the most amazing spell to the raven, it won't work in tvp because it WILL be feedbacked. That's like saying Infestors are useless in ZvP because of feedback. I would argue (like most people) that Infestors are quite strong in ZvP. That's not even a close comparison. Infestors require a single tech structure which is in the normal Zerg path to Hive and a single upgrade for Infestor Energy. At which point they get an all-purpose, 75 energy AoE spell that damages and roots in addition to the versatility of IT and possibly Burrow Movement (requires an upgrade, but the only upgrade requires affects all Zerg ground units). Raven Production costs 150/100 per Starport + a Tech On top of that, and at least 2 upgrades to be viable. On top of that High Templar aren't even a mainstay unit in Protoss compositions vZ (They're often morphed straight to Archons) because storm doesn't fare incredibly well against Zerg armies. In PvT on the other hand, High Templar with storm are almost necessary to beat bio armies. Edit: I think Raven's would be fine with a 9 range, faster moving HSM that only cost 100 Energy. After all, it requires an upgrade to use and is (at least in it's current form) extremely easy to dodge- a faster moving HSM would be offset by the longer range so you'd still have time to react. Currently the energy cost is ridiculous (only able to use once per fight?). Auto Turret and PDD are fine IMO. ´ range 9 AND faster AND 100 energy would be broken as fuck. and its just bad because its instant AoE damage from a flying unit. just give raven an AoE over time ability. you can actually balance that and give raven more range.
I don't really see how it would be imbalanced. From a Terran's point of view, when facing say storm, the storm is instantly cast and Terran has to either pre-emptively or reactively split their army; either way you're almost garunteed to take damage no matter how well you split. A longer range slightly faster HSM would still give players plenty of time to split their armies, but they couldn't just right click away from the HSM and get away with basically no damage like they currently do. I might agree a 100 energy requirement is too much, but only in the theoretical scenario where you have multiple (5+) full energy ravens. Although I agree it's kind of stupid that it's almost guaranteed to kill (or highly damage) the initial target... Maybe making HSM target an area rather than a specific unit would be better?
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On November 08 2012 16:04 Freeborn wrote:How about taking away EMP from the ghost, but then not just giving it to the raven - instead it drops an Inhibitor Turret which deactivates all shields and energy dependent abilities in the vicinity. If the troops leave the are of effect they become instantly available again though. That would make the raven superbly useful while at the same time offering a different EMP variant. Anyone besides me like that idea? I think it's great
I actually really like this idea.
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I had an idea for a new Raven spell:
Irradiation Drone: Casts a stationary drone unit (like the PDD) that emits a radiation field similair to the scrapped "irradiation mine" unit from early HoTS previews. On a timer like the PDD which is upgraded via the Durable Materials upgrade just like the PDD.
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The only spell that I want to be completely replaced is Auto Turret.
It's really boring.
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On November 09 2012 08:02 willoc wrote: I had an idea for a new Raven spell:
Irradiation Drone: Casts a stationary drone unit (like the PDD) that emits a radiation field similair to the scrapped "irradiation mine" unit from early HoTS previews. On a timer like the PDD which is upgraded via the Durable Materials upgrade just like the PDD.
Do you mean the shredder? I dont recall there ever being an irradiation mine.
Your idea could be great at splitting up the Deathball and more eating through shields. It will have kind of similar effects to what storm does but potentially weaker vs big armies as the drone will just die instantly.
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On November 08 2012 14:42 PrsdntKmacho wrote: Wow you managed to write so much and say so little
User was warned for this post [le]terally THIS
User was warned for this post
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On November 08 2012 14:30 boredrex wrote:Hello TL. I'm enjoying reading all of the suggestions on how to balance HotS and make it fun again. I read in a post that David Kim is interested in reworking the Raven and Void Ray link here I thought that perhaps we can have an actual discussion on how to rework the raven. Before we begin, rework to me sounds a lot more aggressive than tweak. This means that in HotS, we could possibly have a completely different unit. However, it will likely remain a caster built from the starport. Allow me to pose a few of my ideas. My ideas are tweaks, but I think they would help 1) Auto turret at the moment is a fairly blah ability. However, I found that it is particularly good at killing widow mines, since it cannot target the turret. However, if you drop a turret adjacent to the mine, your raven dies. As a result, I think increasing the deployment range of the auto turret would be helpful. In addition, I would like it to be able to be dropped on lowered supply depots, creep tumors and units, just like a forcefield. Also, I think it would be cool if the auto turret had detection for as far as it can see so it can effectively deal with burrowed units without the raven being there. 2) Seeker Missile needs either to be replaced or reduced in cost. 125 energy is just too much. For 125 energy, I want a freaking missile that shoots at 9 range that deals 100 AoE damage like a tank shot. OR maybe a shot that does 160 damage to one target and 40 splash....sounds familiar....Currently, having a missile that does about the damage of two tank shots on air and ground units for 125 energy is really not acceptable. 3) A popular one on this forum is to replace HSM with Irradiate.... 4) My final thought is to reduce the amount of upgrades needed. Make corvid reactor one upgrade and one other upgrade that combines range, armor, and duration into one. Building armor and hi-sec auto targeting should remain, but they should not affect the raven (or alternatively, they should further enhance the ravens abilities.) Happy reworking! I agree with everything except the seeker change. Having like 5+ ravens in INSANELY powerful against zerg armies. If ravens could cast it twice as much, it would be OP.
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On November 08 2012 14:30 boredrex wrote: 1) Auto turret at the moment is a fairly blah ability. However, I found that it is particularly good at killing widow mines, since it cannot target the turret. However, if you drop a turret adjacent to the mine, your raven dies. As a result, I think increasing the deployment range of the auto turret would be helpful. In addition, I would like it to be able to be dropped on lowered supply depots, creep tumors and units, just like a forcefield. Also, I think it would be cool if the auto turret had detection for as far as it can see so it can effectively deal with burrowed units without the raven being there.
How can you not kill a widow mine? Turret has range 6 and can be cast up to range 3 away from the Raven, meaning the Raven can be up to range 9 away from the Widow Mine, which has a range of 5. Since the Raven's sight range is 11, then if you can see the mine, you should be able to kill it without endangering your Raven.
On November 08 2012 16:04 Freeborn wrote:How about taking away EMP from the ghost, but then not just giving it to the raven - instead it drops an Inhibitor Turret which deactivates all shields and energy dependent abilities in the vicinity. If the troops leave the are of effect they become instantly available again though. That would make the raven superbly useful while at the same time offering a different EMP variant. Anyone besides me like that idea? I think it's great Actually I had that same idea before as a replacement for EMP and keeping it on the Ghost. The Ghost would fire an "Inhibitor Round" instead of an EMP round, giving Terran the ability to force Toss out of position. I wouldn't go with instant recovery though. My idea had always been a 10% recovery, so after 10 seconds the units would be back to where they were before entering the field, but you get some additional benefit in the event your opponent just up and runs out of the effect immediately. The really nice thing about this ability though is being able to use it defensively. You can inhibit your units to protect them from EMP without actually riding them of the ability to use their spells.
On November 09 2012 02:16 LastWish wrote: - Auto turret: can be placed on a friendly ground mechanical unit, only 1 per unit; additionally to the damage it would give +1 bonus armor and auto-repair ability I really like this idea for Auto Turret, it makes the Raven a better support unit and the "Mech Medivac" that has been repeatedly suggested. However, I would still like them deployable independent of a unit as well, so Ravens retain some more flexibility.
One other option for the Raven that I haven't seen suggested before is modeling it after the Carrier. The unit is supposed to be constructing its various turrets and drones, so why not let it actually do that. Each ability can cost resources and the Raven can "store" a certain number of pre-made Turrets, Drones, and Missiles. If this was to be implemented though, I would say that Turrets and Drones should be recoverable so a good Terran wouldn't have to constantly be rebuilding them (Missiles of course would be single use items). HSM could then potentially be buffed into a mini-nuke with the Raven being a self-contained, flying Ghost/Ghost Academy combo.
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On November 09 2012 09:26 MasterCynical wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 08:02 willoc wrote: I had an idea for a new Raven spell:
Irradiation Drone: Casts a stationary drone unit (like the PDD) that emits a radiation field similair to the scrapped "irradiation mine" unit from early HoTS previews. On a timer like the PDD which is upgraded via the Durable Materials upgrade just like the PDD. Do you mean the shredder? I dont recall there ever being an irradiation mine. Your idea could be great at splitting up the Deathball and more eating through shields. It will have kind of similar effects to what storm does but potentially weaker vs big armies as the drone will just die instantly.
That's the one, the shredder. I'm just worried it could be op for mineral line harassment.
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On November 09 2012 07:36 K_osss wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 16:04 Freeborn wrote:How about taking away EMP from the ghost, but then not just giving it to the raven - instead it drops an Inhibitor Turret which deactivates all shields and energy dependent abilities in the vicinity. If the troops leave the are of effect they become instantly available again though. That would make the raven superbly useful while at the same time offering a different EMP variant. Anyone besides me like that idea? I think it's great I actually really like this idea.
I do too.
It is reminiscent of the area control unit Blizz originally had in mind for HoTs (forget the name of it). This ability would function in a similar role - although the unit they had in mind (and canceled) was destructive to HP in nature I think.
This is potentially even better imo.
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The Raven is one of the most expensive casters in the game, and is extremely difficult to get in quantity as well due to the high cost of the Starport. It seems logical that it should be a powerful support caster, with limited direct offensive power on its own, but able to greatly strengthen a meaty army, especially mech.
To this end, I propose the following:
Auto Turret should have its HP increased to 200 from 150. This makes it beefier, and more useful for making impromptu walls. Auto turret is a weak ability, and it should remain mostly weak, but it does need a function to support ground forces. Damage absorbing wall seems a logical role for it to fill, especially given the static nature of siege tanks.
Point Defense Drone should be very significantly reworked. I think that PDD should be the Raven's workhorse ability. Presently, the PDD spawns with 200 energy, and costs 10 energy per shot to fire. This means it can only intercept 20 shots, but it has an unlimited rate of fire, and can burn 20 enemy projectiles instantaneously.
I propose to rework PDD so that it can potentially intercept many more projectiles by reducing the energy cost to fire, but limiting its rate of fire. I am making up numbers which are of course subject to change upon testing, but suppose it costs 1 energy to fire, but each PDD can only intercept one shot every 0.2 seconds, or five shots per second. This means the damage mitigation by the PDD is not total- some of the damage will likely still get through. However the PDD can, if used correctly, absorb vastly more damage over its lifespan than its present form.
This would greatly change the way PDD is used. If you want more damage mitigation in an area, Terran will need to lay down more PDD's there. Where they overlap, the damage mitigation would be greatest, and shooting through those areas would reduce the number of projectiles more significantly. Furthermore, the position that the PDD goes down would start to matter, as it would likely stand for some time. This would also allow it to potentially regenerate energy over its lifespan, allowing it be absorb even more enemy projectiles. Because PDD's only stop projectiles at a finite rate, using multiple units will allow you to target fire the PDD if you want it destroyed- unless there are a LOT of PDD's in the target area.
I also think PDD should become a true structure, and be impervious to feedback. Protoss should be required to feedback the Raven before it can use the ability, and not just feedback the PDD after it has been cast. PDD already benefits from structure armor and range, but for some reason it can still be feedback'd. This should be corrected.
All Seeker Missile needs is to have its range increased to 9. Range 6 makes using the missile a suicide run for the squishy and expensive Raven, as that is very dangerously close to any kind of ranged attacker than can shoot flying units. I do not think it is a good idea to make Seeker missile cost 100 energy- this ability should be an inefficient use of a support caster for immediate direct damage. Auto Turret and PDD should be the bulk of the Raven's utility unless you're swimming in Raven energy.
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decrease HSM and auto turret energy cost and increase their cast range to 9 and u will you see Mass Raven vs Mass investors war where turrets and infested terrans are all around the map and both side throwing fungals and HSMs towards each other. WOW THAT WOULD BE EPIC!
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On November 09 2012 10:52 xPrimuSx wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 14:30 boredrex wrote: 1) Auto turret at the moment is a fairly blah ability. However, I found that it is particularly good at killing widow mines, since it cannot target the turret. However, if you drop a turret adjacent to the mine, your raven dies. As a result, I think increasing the deployment range of the auto turret would be helpful. In addition, I would like it to be able to be dropped on lowered supply depots, creep tumors and units, just like a forcefield. Also, I think it would be cool if the auto turret had detection for as far as it can see so it can effectively deal with burrowed units without the raven being there.
How can you not kill a widow mine? Turret has range 6 and can be cast up to range 3 away from the Raven, meaning the Raven can be up to range 9 away from the Widow Mine, which has a range of 5. Since the Raven's sight range is 11, then if you can see the mine, you should be able to kill it without endangering your Raven.
Glad you noticed this. It's actually funny, I thought this would be the way too. But take this scenario - You have a medivac, and you want to clear the mineral line of your opponent of widow mines so that the medivac doesn't just go blammo and lose you units. So you bring a raven to the mineral line. There are a few widow mines lining the edges. You drop an auto turret. If you drop it anywhere near the mine, turret will launch and your raven will die. If the mines are buried two spaces away from the edge, you can drop it directly in front and manage to escape. But anything but directly in front will cause it to die.
I seriously like the idea of the inhibitor drone.
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PDD should work on widow mine projectiles. I think Blizzard already said they will correct this.
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Russian Federation216 Posts
On November 09 2012 13:16 ledarsi wrote: PDD should work on widow mine projectiles. I think Blizzard already said they will correct this. and also - broodlord shots!
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On November 09 2012 12:36 ledarsi wrote:+ Show Spoiler [PDD confusion] +The Raven is one of the most expensive casters in the game, and is extremely difficult to get in quantity as well due to the high cost of the Starport. It seems logical that it should be a powerful support caster, with limited direct offensive power on its own, but able to greatly strengthen a meaty army, especially mech.
To this end, I propose the following:
Auto Turret should have its HP increased to 200 from 150. This makes it beefier, and more useful for making impromptu walls. Auto turret is a weak ability, and it should remain mostly weak, but it does need a function to support ground forces. Damage absorbing wall seems a logical role for it to fill, especially given the static nature of siege tanks.
Point Defense Drone should be very significantly reworked. I think that PDD should be the Raven's workhorse ability. Presently, the PDD spawns with 200 energy, and costs 10 energy per shot to fire. This means it can only intercept 20 shots, but it has an unlimited rate of fire, and can burn 20 enemy projectiles instantaneously.
I propose to rework PDD so that it can potentially intercept many more projectiles by reducing the energy cost to fire, but limiting its rate of fire. I am making up numbers which are of course subject to change upon testing, but suppose it costs 1 energy to fire, but each PDD can only intercept one shot every 0.2 seconds, or five shots per second. This means the damage mitigation by the PDD is not total- some of the damage will likely still get through. However the PDD can, if used correctly, absorb vastly more damage over its lifespan than its present form.
This would greatly change the way PDD is used. If you want more damage mitigation in an area, Terran will need to lay down more PDD's there. Where they overlap, the damage mitigation would be greatest, and shooting through those areas would reduce the number of projectiles more significantly. Furthermore, the position that the PDD goes down would start to matter, as it would likely stand for some time. This would also allow it to potentially regenerate energy over its lifespan, allowing it be absorb even more enemy projectiles. Because PDD's only stop projectiles at a finite rate, using multiple units will allow you to target fire the PDD if you want it destroyed- unless there are a LOT of PDD's in the target area.
I also think PDD should become a true structure, and be impervious to feedback. Protoss should be required to feedback the Raven before it can use the ability, and not just feedback the PDD after it has been cast. PDD already benefits from structure armor and range, but for some reason it can still be feedback'd. This should be corrected.
All Seeker Missile needs is to have its range increased to 9. Range 6 makes using the missile a suicide run for the squishy and expensive Raven, as that is very dangerously close to any kind of ranged attacker than can shoot flying units. I do not think it is a good idea to make Seeker missile cost 100 energy- this ability should be an inefficient use of a support caster for immediate direct damage. Auto Turret and PDD should be the bulk of the Raven's utility unless you're swimming in Raven energy. One thing you don't quite seem to get about the PDD is that it does regen energy, and does so almost twice as fast as every other unit in the game. The PDD gains 1 energy per second, so after 10 seconds of life it can negate another attack, and it lasts 180s so that translates to an additional 18 attacks negated (or 38 total) and with Durable Materials it brings its life up to 240s, or 6 additional attacks (44 total attacks blocked). The PDD is not limited to blocking 20 attacks.
On November 09 2012 13:02 boredrex wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 10:52 xPrimuSx wrote:On November 08 2012 14:30 boredrex wrote: 1) Auto turret at the moment is a fairly blah ability. However, I found that it is particularly good at killing widow mines, since it cannot target the turret. However, if you drop a turret adjacent to the mine, your raven dies. As a result, I think increasing the deployment range of the auto turret would be helpful. In addition, I would like it to be able to be dropped on lowered supply depots, creep tumors and units, just like a forcefield. Also, I think it would be cool if the auto turret had detection for as far as it can see so it can effectively deal with burrowed units without the raven being there.
How can you not kill a widow mine? Turret has range 6 and can be cast up to range 3 away from the Raven, meaning the Raven can be up to range 9 away from the Widow Mine, which has a range of 5. Since the Raven's sight range is 11, then if you can see the mine, you should be able to kill it without endangering your Raven. Glad you noticed this. It's actually funny, I thought this would be the way too. But take this scenario - You have a medivac, and you want to clear the mineral line of your opponent of widow mines so that the medivac doesn't just go blammo and lose you units. So you bring a raven to the mineral line. There are a few widow mines lining the edges. You drop an auto turret. If you drop it anywhere near the mine, turret will launch and your raven will die. If the mines are buried two spaces away from the edge, you can drop it directly in front and manage to escape. But anything but directly in front will cause it to die. I seriously like the idea of the inhibitor drone. Ah, I hadn't considered Widow Mines at an edge at the back of a base, I was mostly thinking about pushing in against them. Well I guess that's my lack of experience (i.e. none) with HotS showing.
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xPrimuSx- while technically true, in practice PDD burns all of its energy immediately and is then useless. I am aware that PDD's regenerate energy unusually quickly, but it is irrelevant to its practical use. True, it can intercept a single attack if you wait ten seconds. However that is not very useful. Over its entire three minute lifespan it can regenerate enough energy to intercept an additional 18 attacks, maximum, whereas it blocks 20 the instant it drops.
Propose whatever numbers you like- I merely suggest that PDD would be more interesting if it blocks more shots per energy, but is not an absolute protection barrier even when charged. At one shot per 0.2 seconds a single PDD might be perfect protection against two-ish stalkers. Bring more guns and shots will get past, without more PDDs anyway.
Rather than regenerate enough energy to block one shot per 10 seconds, what about one shot per second, with the rate of fire limitation? So over its three minute lifespan it regenerates enough energy to block 180 shots, if the enemy is silly enough to fight in the area for three entire minutes without killing the drone.
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Actually I'd like Timewarp (on Protoss atm) on the Raven to slow down the lategame mass Chargelot warp-ins running into your base before you can get a decent opposition up again, but this is Blizzard...
Anyways, I think the cast range of the Seeker Missile is it's biggest problem right now. It's so low that it quite much turns the Raven into a big, expensive, flying baneling. If you get to fire the HSM you're lucky, but the Raven will probably die every time. Also the damage being smaller, the further away from the impact location, makes it a quite much useless anti-ground AoE spell. With this limited use I think a buff should be acceptable.
Another nice idea would be a repair spell. Not like Medivac healing (or SC2 campaign science vessel auto-repair), but like a point and click repair, maybe even AoE, which requires some micro. Something like: activate spell -> click on a unit or area -> the unit or all units in the area are repaired for x HP (over y seconds?). Animation: some small repair bots or so. This is useable for both Mech and Air units, buffing both styles a little (because both are rather under-used now imo).
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how about
intead of turrets you can throw walls like forcefields or you can mark a small group of units that get increased dmg
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Make it 100/175. Make it faster. Make Seeker 100 energy.
You don't need to completely gut open the Raven just give it some minor tweaks.
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maybe this, make ravens hsm cheaper and make its damage reduced as it travels as well as its aoe size reduced as it travels, but make it always hit on some level(and maybe a bit faster)
so that means that it can be an area denial spell that is not over powered and has a micro thing going on with risk and reward and what not.
remove autoturret replaces sort of scrambler thing that only effects mechanical and halves there damage and maybe movement speed. single target only. would be good against colossus and immortals. sounds a little op to me to be honest, but whatevs, could be cool with some testing.
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How about make hsm cost 150 energy and has a range of 15. To counter late game long range unit.
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I good move would be to sack the Raven and introduce an new flying sell caster. The raven isn't an iconic unit anyway, so few people will really miss it. On the other hand, we all want a new terran unit....so....there you go.
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I still think if the raven 'transformed' into the PDD that would make the Raven so much better, give the PDD some extra range so the raven doesn't suicide, make the energy cost for blocking shots use the raven's energy, and make the tranform time not too long so it can be saved if the army begins to retreat or kite. (naturally, reduce the energy cost for blocking shots)
Give it that anti-spellcaster ability someone else mentioned, and replace hunter seeker with maybe a toggleable ability (either costs mana or drains mana or maybe both) that increases the range of units near it by one, called it 'precision' or something. These abilities could be used in PDD form or not depending on balance.
This would make it an awesome support unit in almost all situations:
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